IT Leaders

In this episode of IT Leaders, Kevin Kujawa, a seasoned IT executive, shares his insights on evaluating IT leadership performance, especially within private equity contexts. Kevin discusses his background at Allied Benefits, where he scaled the IT team from zero to 47 full-time employees and led significant technological transformations.

Kevin highlights the evolving role of IT as a core driver of business value rather than a mere support function. He explains the importance of demonstrating IT’s impact on profitability and company valuation, emphasizing strategic hiring, vendor management, and cost optimization.

The conversation also covers effective risk communication and project prioritization in board meetings. Kevin provides practical advice on balancing immediate project demands with long-term goals, underscoring the necessity for IT leaders to articulate their department’s value to executives and board members.

Listeners will gain valuable insights on metrics and strategies for evaluating IT leadership, making this episode essential for IT leaders aiming to enhance their strategic impact and drive organizational success.

Creators & Guests

Guest
Kevin Kujawa
CIO, Allied Benefit Systems

What is IT Leaders?

The purpose of the IT Leaders Council is to bring together IT Directors and Managers for leadership training, educational content from guest speakers, and peer discussions in a vendor-free, collaborative environment. IT Leaders Councils are currently offered in Indianapolis, IN and Columbus, OH, with more cities coming soon!

00:00:00:15 - 00:00:25:21
Kevin Kujawa
So, I'm going to talk a little bit, Doug and Project. You'll go a bit on all this, my, talks that could be about giving for spelling was really. How is your executive team to be for directors or your investment is evaluating leadership things, how they're not delivering it that what they're looking at is part of their discussion.

00:00:25:21 - 00:00:54:19
Kevin Kujawa
So I'm going to try to peel back the curtain. So a little bit but my background, I'm Captain Key driver with civil rights, Allied benefits. Allied. Don't go don't follow up. I always get confused. That company were actually, like, a largest, ineligible to in the country. It was not only based in Chicago. We have an office there that no ghost in the hub was out remote.

00:00:54:21 - 00:01:18:13
Kevin Kujawa
and interestingly enough, this company had all their operational folks through a remote seven years ago. And what we try to cover it just to set costs very profit to, company, broke down the trip to country and they, they recognized that that was something, you know, I had wished, to do at another company. It just fell flat.

00:01:18:13 - 00:01:44:04
Kevin Kujawa
But we they got they got that, you know, it was so Kovic, just in that event, I joined there back of the after that, two year ago that replaced state law and and try to consulting for that was running it for over 25 years. Yeah. test them. Watch it. Technical debt. yeah. So, well, in the infrastructure, a lot of projects got listed.

00:01:44:04 - 00:02:29:06
Kevin Kujawa
Die big Irish if you're not described. So, in the last two years, we've done a remarkable job at IoT. Great team White from basically know IT folks to 47 full time, high key people. Dan, them really turn that into it. You throw a pep or something back to open up. And then I was, with the help of, great leaders, I hired a great partner in this, they went from two, sadly, one data centers to speak up and, very, very glad that that with them, I do recognize some of you from any CIO, meetings.

00:02:29:06 - 00:02:50:19
Kevin Kujawa
I had part of that. Let me I we they both I that's a green career. I haven't participated in initial. You might want to lift that team to, Can I see a lot of my politics here? Previous role I had. I'm glad to see that they're involved on this meeting. It's. I think this is very great.

00:02:50:21 - 00:03:17:15
Kevin Kujawa
that get feedback for it. But for your career advancement. So I'm not going to read the screen to you, but, because I put some barometers and, and, and, and, we just heard a great example of this. All the past constraints, it and the new operate pathways has really changed the way how you're a value.

00:03:17:15 - 00:03:47:07
Kevin Kujawa
And, so we went from we're constantly changing that. That's what you get to. So you didn't go into marketing finance, but, these other these other professions said, hey, you learned how to sell, I could sell, I work finance and do finance any. But it is constantly, constantly changing as you go. So this mother approach will be pulled two years.

00:03:47:09 - 00:04:15:08
Kevin Kujawa
So, So that that's the reason I'm presenting this. And I'm sure you've had speakers talk about all these things, had nausea. So I was to a lot of time meeting, and you get this slide deck. but good. title. I will deliver that up. So, so the reason I'm saying this is, it is the best solution that anything that goes on in your company.

00:04:15:08 - 00:04:45:14
Kevin Kujawa
Yeah, it's not come through the equity part. So and that's again increasing the focus, the pressure intention about it later. How many of you have gone to your, company award to, you know, early recognitions and everyone say says a Pollyanna might marketing perfect just installed a new CRM and then what about we get reports out and you get all the credit for this year, and then someone else gets credit for the new find out.

00:04:45:14 - 00:05:07:11
Kevin Kujawa
So I'll do it when you get your it sitting there. Come. I remember those guys being married three weekends in a row, living it up until they call 24 seven or any of this back. You know, you can get grin and bear it. but, you know, you're, you're you're the main cog in the wheel for all these projects.

00:05:07:13 - 00:05:45:06
Kevin Kujawa
So, and that is now how executives are starting to look at that years at this seriously driving the business. And, you know, it is no longer edited out. And it's been a necessity. It is part of the driving that the future does. So. So how are executives bound on the board member, chief in some other chiefs in here, we get the real but several times a year, and we talk about budget personnel.

00:05:45:07 - 00:06:12:09
Kevin Kujawa
It results and you're talked about just to to be right. You know, and this is, these are some of the areas that you're probably getting better, doc. So do you have impact on coming this day and what I mean by the, profitability, you could call it growth, price, productivity. And it's really comes down. Are you contributing to the valuation pickup?

00:06:12:09 - 00:06:40:22
Kevin Kujawa
I don't know. Now I'm skewing my conversation a little bit because we are in private equity. so valuation is very important. But it shouldn't be a quarter all come true at this curve. And just as much as a private equity firm, and valuation prop story, and I must say, I am to stand aside. I wish I would have gotten was primarily company screen and always heard.

00:06:40:23 - 00:07:08:03
Kevin Kujawa
Smashing dirt you know they covered and to strip stripped of company attached. And, you know, I'm in a very lucky situation there were I, I endured it this past week. So don't be afraid to one for private equity has a in my opinion victory investing especially in it now to drive that value unpunished. the next point, do you have a high stake to do ratio.

00:07:08:05 - 00:07:31:10
Kevin Kujawa
So you come in to tell your, the executives, hey, I'm going to make sure we get, into Expedia Cloud. We get six months of it. And, here's the plan. And then you come in five and a half months later. You know what? I don't think I would get to Expedia for another three months because I come up.

00:07:31:12 - 00:07:55:19
Kevin Kujawa
That's far too late. you're you're, you're a but you say something, you got into a fight, and the perception of it is history bad in America? I'm going to steal this term from someone else that heard this about it. It's like an an elephant. It's just like a bird. That means it takes in all the money it produces.

00:07:55:21 - 00:08:27:02
Kevin Kujawa
But. Right. All the things we do in the middle of the night, on the weekends. This just in Washington. Everyone else, you know, it's just Monday morning and all the systems are work. So, the other way you can, improve your, perception is become a front of CFO and constantly evaluate. We spend a vendor shop, you know, but stick with try to get the few vendors that you need it.

00:08:27:02 - 00:08:54:11
Kevin Kujawa
A vendor that could do multiple things correctly. This might recommendation. So you again, you're managing fewer contracts. And when you have more leverage or you had a bigger spend those this, this CapEx, and are you doing a good return on investment studies and there's nothing that gets the attention of CEO more or than, hey, you know, the project, the you finally gave me $100,000 for?

00:08:54:13 - 00:09:21:17
Kevin Kujawa
Well, here's Xerox all the way within six weeks of a turn every six months. We actually cover that to. And the third, really big point that, you're probably measure out is peers that depend on you because there's other people, other than the CIO. And this executive put me covering before me discussing you. There's the CEO, there's the CFO, but there's the marketing people.

00:09:21:19 - 00:09:45:09
Kevin Kujawa
Are you delivering for those departments? a lot of the time they might not realize your support. So, they won't have a good idea of what you're what your contribution. It's so getting with your peers, describing what they're going to do for that. I think being that source of information is very important. Don't don't shut up. Lock.

00:09:45:13 - 00:10:12:23
Kevin Kujawa
You know, I know meeting with other directors and managers, other departments can sometimes tedious boring off the point. But develop that relationship and really explain to them what you do and how it delivers with their their money. I use that CRM. Make sure you're getting get with the person they want to see you on. Tell them all the work you're doing to move that forward so they appreciate that.

00:10:12:23 - 00:10:35:11
Kevin Kujawa
So when it comes to type, what the budget type comes around, they know, you know, we can't live without those people who need to budget that team. So, also cost reduction that again, I mentioned a little bit about, you know, vendor shopping, other cost reduction, methods, but that's something you really have to focus on.

00:10:35:13 - 00:11:07:22
Kevin Kujawa
And, of course, delivering effective solutions is, them, you know, exploitation needed. So how do you drive value? I can go over a couple of examples of driving value. If you deploy some of these, that techniques, you have, you'll probably get recognized up a little bit better in the, in the boardroom. So, Do you have a decentralized IT organization?

00:11:08:00 - 00:11:42:11
Kevin Kujawa
in this where I talk about fragmented tech, stack IT resources scattered throughout the company probably don't want you against centralized funds. Bigger teams, less. Less fragmentation, fiscal radio. That's going to be a little provocative. I'm not a huge fan or user of local talent. but, a lot of companies are, some of your companies might be some of your, boards might think that it's a magic pill to shift work.

00:11:42:13 - 00:12:02:12
Kevin Kujawa
the country, if you don't use global talent, have a reason why you didn't have some members backing me up and say, hey, I've done this or it didn't work. Here's the numbers. I could do it with this. You know, three full time people based here. I'll have more skin in the game, you know, turn it around faster, better support.

00:12:02:14 - 00:12:37:07
Kevin Kujawa
But executives are always looking for that cost cutting of and, global talent is one of those. So evaluate what roles you share. they nearshore or outsource some part and dirt but have a reason, that you don't, contracting should be very strategic. so it's not only about, you know, oh, I've got the best in breed and all these 20 different classes.

00:12:37:09 - 00:13:01:07
Kevin Kujawa
I team, but again, you're contracting. People should also be your area, plus partly your version rather than this pain in the butt to do the contract. You should be very involved in that contract negotiation here. Get the contracting team or your sourcing team to back you up and then partners with that. But have them look at what what they should do.

00:13:01:07 - 00:13:33:03
Kevin Kujawa
You're looking for a big part. we talked a little bit about the spirit use. Technology matters. this one again, significant overhead. This could be a little provocative, but I can almost guarantee every cycle comes around for the budget. They're going through your staff, and they're not looking at staff by title or department. Then we're looking at salaries and there's certain salaries.

00:13:33:05 - 00:14:09:01
Kevin Kujawa
They're asking your CIO how come these people are making this much? But right. Why is this person, this paying $3,000 more than this person for the same say, well, some of that again can be explained away as they're great contributors. Stay. But not everyone is, his peers in that box. So you have to be take a serious look at your staff and say, like that.

00:14:09:03 - 00:14:45:11
Kevin Kujawa
that person been an engineer for 15 years. I'm paying them acts their productivity. And to say the summit, that's a one year question. So, it it it's up to you to really add value to your company to have that serious thought. Am I going to replace this person that lower paid option? And that's, that's part of your job as an ITP die to have those difficult, discussions with people when you have to, but eliminate the position, we're asking to move on because it's not the right fit.

00:14:45:17 - 00:15:09:23
Kevin Kujawa
But that is something that is discussed every day, and you're going to be measured on it at some point in your career. Madden Madden. To make that kind of salary, you can't keep everybody for 20 years. Just doesn't happen. Everyone in it's ridiculous. Now probably going through it once you crunch either it's that recipe that there were some liberating eggs for the.

00:15:10:00 - 00:15:41:02
Kevin Kujawa
Job. There are too many middle managers. And we'll talk a little bit about management in general, but, again, how many are you cut up? You are also you're all in the for leadership roles, but how much are you how many of you are still getting the day to day? And I keyboard stuff some. So yeah. You should really be a people there and waiting for it.

00:15:41:07 - 00:16:20:17
Kevin Kujawa
And something. Companies say they're people leaders but they're still promoting individual contributors. They channel to middle management, and there's too many of them. And they often use that management title as a way to get you more for compensation rather than doing the right thing. And, keeping you technical, what can be contributed? Well, and reason, you know, you you want it the fewer middle managers is you want the managers focusing on value creation, profitability execution and not a, the system's down.

00:16:20:17 - 00:16:50:14
Kevin Kujawa
I got on the way from this. We. And you go fix it. how many of your, companies have growth through acquisition? and how slow or go in and and as they're got, this is probably the biggest spot to provide value back to your board. it's looking at integration, going to look at redundant staff. And, and he really means taking on more work for yourself.

00:16:50:16 - 00:17:20:14
Kevin Kujawa
that is probably true. The most, value on the table in my mind. but, ways to, to drive about it. And then, of course, we can't talk like that, so you should probably get 15 high discussions already in this group level at our company. We, our private equity firm gets about 40, companies underneath it at our CIO.

00:17:20:14 - 00:17:45:06
Kevin Kujawa
CTO me. That is pretty much just laid out. You're doing out and again, recording like that I can't share too much, but, I it, you know, it's gotten to the point. If you're not doing something with it, you're going to fall behind. I really believe to me it's not saying you can do, I do you do I?

00:17:45:06 - 00:18:13:07
Kevin Kujawa
Seriously? Because this is the one technology that we've heard all the buzz about that I really think is going to finally, finally be, you know, quite a big data. I'll turn to other stuff. Gartner comes up with the new buzzword every year. And the what's I remember what, the first market meeting I went to, windows, the windows operating system of the phone was going to be the Big Bang.

00:18:13:09 - 00:18:34:07
Kevin Kujawa
And then, God, yeah, it just didn't pan out for it was just like a year before. Apple just took everything right off. So they were way up and like, but do something with that. It's all I'm asking you how. But otherwise your, your bosses are going to say, okay, you failed here. You didn't break it. They got here competition did.

00:18:34:09 - 00:19:03:02
Kevin Kujawa
You're out. And yeah, starting over. And of course not optimal use of office space. And this fax kept me on manufacturing is a little bit different. but when you have data centers hanging out, you think all over the country you might want to centralize. And if you have a cloud, get into the game from a company that used to have session that it's nice to have a data center.

00:19:03:02 - 00:19:22:13
Kevin Kujawa
So they chip salespeople that show a tour on a tour. But you know, when everyone's going to data, it's very special about arts. But, let's admit it isn't the control of having the data center and the perception that you have more control over your own data center than you do with this cloud? yeah, I do. All of that is here.

00:19:22:17 - 00:20:00:17
Kevin Kujawa
I mean, still on that ad money. All right, so span of control. We talked about that on managers. and we talked about people liquors and how many people do both, the people we ship and hands to keyboard. it really you really want to focus on the size of the team? Are going to step up to answer a root, of our this these are numbers off our, some of the portfolio companies we send out.

00:20:00:17 - 00:20:34:21
Kevin Kujawa
A company can. during survey, this was the span of, Direct, imports to different managers were same, different, departments. So you can see it's been it had a application about mixing three direct reports, up to ten. it's you can see, you know, in range, where the optimal decided by our company, recommended by our company.

00:20:34:21 - 00:21:04:09
Kevin Kujawa
Not for statements, but this becomes the optimal, size. So skewing to the the higher end, the why is, if you have a lot of teams of 3 or 4 people, you don't have a lot of control. This bot does. You have to coordinate decision making process, large recruitment people. But, it can't attract you might not be able to attract the strongly received.

00:21:04:11 - 00:21:28:07
Kevin Kujawa
Why? Because. Yeah, I'm quite you know, I'm a director. I have eight direct reports. Why would I come to a company at three. Right. So and again it leads to cost savings because our middle managers. But you have that money now to exploit our engineers.

00:21:28:09 - 00:21:59:23
Kevin Kujawa
And then part of it part of them. That previous slide about span of control is because of this unstructured chophouse career about. Right. So talk alluded to earlier we promote promote promote bitter Peter principle you can't do job foreign. So individual contributors are sometimes given with title side. So associate director or director for there. So basically just your best that.

00:22:00:00 - 00:22:02:13
Kevin Kujawa
Yeah.

00:22:02:15 - 00:22:29:08
Kevin Kujawa
So you really have to employ two different apps. You know and people have to make that decision at the early in the career, I was talking to Mike here and he was having surprised, me because by useful look. And I was CIO for 25 years. but it's because early in my career, I decided that cheats.

00:22:29:08 - 00:22:58:18
Kevin Kujawa
I don't want to be a part of me making money. I never had an MBA again. Business setting. And that's where two years met something. Don't go out getting very, that this old school. Okay, but you have to make that choice. Am I going to be a people leader or, like, I'm sending tech technology terms? Yeah. This is this is, like a career path I, I helped develop at a previous company.

00:22:58:20 - 00:23:35:12
Kevin Kujawa
Okay. No point by current company gets. Well, and just give you some ideas head on. Experience position and and, at the point what titles? So, we recent when I came to the my company, we had three people and senior director was that really had no nobody for that right. It are definitely individual in the was so 25 years plus experience what had 34 years of experience.

00:23:35:14 - 00:24:09:14
Kevin Kujawa
So they're all senior directors. So they are now principal attributes. So they will change their title change their expectation. Didn't have to change their pay is their listening pick. And so a lot of companies in this, there's some you'll have to work with your leadership on this. A lot of companies will have a different pay band from this line that the next slide that shouldn't be kicks senior software engineer, should be able to make as much as their boss is to improve it, so that payment should be the same.

00:24:09:16 - 00:24:39:06
Kevin Kujawa
He didn't. It's coke rating and then I will tell it in with again not my favorite topic. And I thought it was important because it is important that a lot about what happens. So it is a more flexible and cost effective workforce. I'll give you that. It does give you the ability to retain knowledge workers, because it might not be the exact individual.

00:24:39:08 - 00:25:02:20
Kevin Kujawa
If you have a single third party partner, you get that value. If they have the same batch the that. But but the engineers, you can flex up and down a little bit easier. layoffs or firings. you do, you know, I do agree this is something that could be a positive. A lot of these organizations say you do.

00:25:03:01 - 00:25:29:04
Kevin Kujawa
You can't outsource to have a large footprint. Thousands and thousands of engineers, and they've created innovations. Right. So that might be a good partner for AI or robotics. I process of automation. So the array of tools at your company cannot work. So this might not be totally free to outsource. And then financial predictability based on the contract.

00:25:29:06 - 00:26:02:00
Kevin Kujawa
But I don't have on here is predictability. You have your products as high as you need. That's the case. I, I still think there's, a strong, but I have a strong bias, at least for internal engineering teams to meet deadlines. But again, global talent mix with the survey said, you know, some companies as well as 12 sub engineers, up to 72%.

00:26:02:05 - 00:26:49:12
Kevin Kujawa
But, you know, this particular, study recommended much higher optimal percentages, that were currently being before I are, portfolio companies. you'll see security though and PMO less so. that being stated more as a core core competency. Kevin. And you run into a situation and you find vendors are either staff augmentation or they're highly consultative, you know, more consulting based because I've run into a situation where the expectation was they were consulting, but they were really more staff on staff requires a whole different set of roles when you're working with them as a vendor versus a consulting partner.

00:26:49:16 - 00:27:14:16
Kevin Kujawa
And I'm leaning more towards staff augmentation, I guess. Okay, my presentation rather than a typical consultant, okay, that's going to tell you how to do it. They're they're coming in to help you. Yeah. so I beg from yeah, you probably she said to me more at the start of staff. So you like to have your talent be within the Euro team as opposed to outsourcing for consulting purposes?

00:27:14:17 - 00:27:52:18
Kevin Kujawa
I yes. Okay. Any other. That was a good question because that leads into my last slide. And any other questions or comments. Yeah. Kevin how do you see the the investor influencing the work that you're doing positively or negatively? You mentioned that, you know, you like the private equity model. We've seen times where things are undue influence and, you know, prescribe prescribe things that aren't necessarily good.

00:27:52:20 - 00:28:15:02
Kevin Kujawa
Yeah. And I get I get I might be lucky with the organization I'm with. Yeah. I if you are able to show your I say do ratio if you're able to show value if they're willing to invest more I mean I go to board meetings, I'm asked can we add a couple more engineers to get that project going even faster?

00:28:15:03 - 00:28:38:13
Kevin Kujawa
Is they one year on an ROI sewer? Yeah. So a lot of cases I come out of the board meeting more flush than we did. Right. because if you have that track record of doing what you're saying you're going to do, it's going to they're going to pay attention to that because it all all comes down to that bottom line.

00:28:38:15 - 00:29:12:16
Kevin Kujawa
Are you providing ROI? I value to the company to eliminating technical debt, getting more fodder, introducing new technologies, eliminating manual work. If you can show that ROI that they'll be more than money, in my opinion. Listen to you and to help you push things along. Any other questions for Kevin? Any? Yeah. so quick one from from your experience sitting on the board level, how do you want the risk level communicated to the board?

00:29:12:22 - 00:29:38:12
Kevin Kujawa
You know, you don't you don't want to cry wolf, but how do you want that risk to be communicated? That's that is that is a great question. But I didn't go into that. That's another whole nother board discussion. I think you in future and I like that. okay. So the board doesn't typically want to hear about risk or CEO doesn't want you might tell the board about it.

00:29:38:17 - 00:30:17:21
Kevin Kujawa
Right? Right. Because they want to sugarcoat everything's great. The right path security awesome. Right. I will tell you this, you you have to be honest and share risk with your board. It's difficult at points, but especially around security, system availability or scalability. We we do a quarter, you know, we have a quarterly board meeting, and we set aside, you know, just a small section of the IT piece for security, for instance.

00:30:18:01 - 00:30:40:11
Kevin Kujawa
And we go through the risk response and we, you know, through our regular face. And that's how we got extra dollars, right. you say you could use it as either a tool or it might, I'm not going to lie to you to come back and whiplash on it because they'll say, how could you let this risk.

00:30:40:11 - 00:31:04:02
Kevin Kujawa
It's a lot of and or and how did you let this let this happen rather than let's get this fixed, how can I help you in this? Because I that's a great question. I don't have an answer to it, but I would suggest more communication is better than less. So at that point, are you having to identify risk that you've brought through your CEO, the CEO, but has not been addressed?

00:31:04:03 - 00:31:30:19
Kevin Kujawa
Is that what you're saying? And how does that go? How do you reconcile that later with your CEO? It all depends on the board. Okay. Now, yeah, it depends on the board. There are friendly boards and there are other boards that have, again, independent, really strong independent board members. That's really strong independent board members. Your allies too.

00:31:30:21 - 00:31:49:18
Kevin Kujawa
Okay. Well, so you do have to have that conversation. You can't spray it on your CEO that says, hey, I'm going to tell everybody that we're going to we have this security issue or that we can't scale. But I'm assuming you've had that conversation and at some point you feel obligated. Yes. If you say it's part of my job, I have got to present this.

00:31:49:18 - 00:32:07:04
Kevin Kujawa
Yeah. And then do you go back to the CEO and say, look, now that this is out in the open, we're gonna have to put a plan together, right? And you're going to have to help me now, especially if you have outside investors outside. You want to know because the reason they buy your company is they want to resell.

00:32:07:06 - 00:32:26:17
Kevin Kujawa
And if we got to sell it again and the buyer comes in and says, look at all these, yeah, all abilities you have, look at all this technical debt you have and it's going to it's going to backfire. So in the long run, the hard discussion with the CEO prior to the board meeting is the best discussion you could have.

00:32:26:19 - 00:33:00:10
Kevin Kujawa
Like, and I'm curious about a couple of areas that you spoke to primarily. It would be the return on the investment and the people leadership kind of awareness. Do you have any quantifiable ways of demonstrating ROI on people leadership? I don't yeah. It's a necessary evil, right, that the people leadership's the necessary evil. But if you have fewer people leaders and stronger people leaders, again, that's going to reflect better over budget.

00:33:00:12 - 00:33:25:03
Kevin Kujawa
You have more engineers getting more work done. So that larger team should lead to a higher power. Well, I don't have to say any statistics to back that up that that's the theory. So you gotta look at that management as a of cost. But it is truly an entity. It's not a doer and a manager. And so you can predict their output 0.0 should be it's it's holding the team together.

00:33:25:03 - 00:33:50:00
Kevin Kujawa
It's doing retention training bringing up skill sets. you concentrate on that, you make the engineering team. And that's the output perhaps of quantifying that is success with your department. Right. overall, I'm more successful this year. But, you know, look at my stats from, next, you know, get more project stuff. Trying to work less cost. Yes.

00:33:50:02 - 00:34:38:18
Kevin Kujawa
How would you communicate? the benefits, agility priority to a board that has, 12 really important projects that they want done. Now? Yeah, that's a good point. it all comes down to, I'd say, from my point of view, risk to the company, whether it be security, risk from, losing business to a competitor risk and not delivering on a promise compared to you have to this is where a strong PMO comes in compared to the throughput you have capable and you leave it up to them and say, we cannot get on top of that force, right?

00:34:38:18 - 00:35:08:07
Kevin Kujawa
Good. And which can be put off or reduce. Another tough discussion. But again, if they they know they're not gonna get all 12 done just doesn't happen right there. Have to duke it out for the resources or otherwise. You tell them if you want all 12 done, this is what you already did with the budget. Now what's the year that I think they then they when they see this, they go, you know what that project the CFO wait till next year.

00:35:08:09 - 00:35:33:01
Kevin Kujawa
Another one is not so important. let's not do that. It's not really adding value. I will tell you, we probably spend more money adding features to products and websites than. That are needed. I mean, the used and it's just ignored because more is better. More is better. And that's a really tough discussion to have. stop adding stuff.

00:35:33:01 - 00:35:37:01
Kevin Kujawa
People are using stuff. They're absolutely. But Kevin, thank you.