Belong

In this episode, we dive into the inspiring journey of Man Flow Yoga, a yoga-based fitness program created by Dean Pohlman. Starting from creating YouTube videos for his lacrosse teammates to building a comprehensive online community, Dean shares how he tailored yoga for men who may feel out of place in traditional yoga settings. We discuss the evolution of Man Flow Yoga, the surprising demographic it attracted, and the launch of community-driven projects like the Better Man Podcast and Man Flow Yoga Engage. Dean emphasizes the importance of vulnerability, supportive communities, and the integration of holistic wellness into fitness regimes. This conversation offers valuable insights for anyone interested in building a community-focused fitness brand.

Links

Chapters
  • (00:00) - Interview with Dean Pohlman
  • (00:39) - Introduction and Purpose of the Podcast
  • (01:10) - The Origins of Man Flow Yoga
  • (03:25) - Reaching a Broader Audience
  • (05:04) - Building a Facebook Community
  • (13:51) - The Better Man Podcast
  • (16:49) - Man Flow Engage and Future Plans
  • (26:48) - The Importance of Vulnerability
  • (30:14) - Future Vision

Credits
Music by Denys Kyshchuk from Pixabay.com.

Creators & Guests

Guest
Dean Pohlman (he/him)
CEO & Founder, Man Flow Yoga

What is Belong?

The power of belonging in business, community, and life.

Interview with Dean Pohlman
===

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Welcome to belong. I'm Kevin Micalizzi. After following his work for years, I became a lifetime member. And I finally had the chance to sit down and talk with Dean Pullman founder of Man Flow Yoga about the impressive way he's grown his business through community building, helping men live healthier lives.

I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I have.

Introduction and Purpose of the Podcast
---

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): So I have wanted to talk to you for a while. This podcast is really about folks who are cultivating belonging in different areas, whether it's business, community, life.

And I've been pretty much following your Man Flow Yoga journey since I don't think it was 2013. I think it was like probably 2014, 2015, that I started watching your videos on YouTube. But you've had an incredible progression here and I'd love to dig into it.

The Origins of Man Flow Yoga
---

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): You initially started creating yoga videos for your teammates on YouTube.

Dean: Yes.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Do you even have in your mind that others would be watching it at the same time?

Dean: Yeah. So I started doing Man Flow Yoga because I wanted to share yoga with, the teammates, right? My lacrosse teammates. I was playing college, collegiate lacrosse when I started doing yoga, and I really liked the way that it was helping me in terms of my physical health. You know, being more flexible, feeling more aware of my body, being more aware of my breathing, feeling stronger in different ways. It made me feel a lot stronger and I wanted to share that with my teammates. And I said, Hey, let's go to a yoga studio.

And they were like, no, we don't want to go to a yoga studio. So I mean, this is 2012. I think yoga was a lot different back then. know, I think the, you know, the, at least when I was growing up with, you know, with high school sports and with collegiate sports, there's a very, there's a strong desire to be masculine and anything that was a feminine would, you know, you didn't want to do, or that just wasn't as like, cool. So, you know, there was just resistance to doing yoga And so I was like, okay, well, what if I upload some workouts to YouTube? And so I did that. I didn't really ask if they would do it. I don't know if anyone actually did it from the team, but you know, I started uploading workouts to YouTube. And yeah, that was basically how this started just because I thought, Hey, yoga is a really good workout, but the way that yoga is being presented now and the way that most yoga is, I mean, not just presented, but also how most yoga is, doesn't really resonate with a guy who's interested in working out. So I was like, okay, well, I'm, you know, I look the way that I do. I look like an athlete. I am an athlete. So, you know, if maybe I can put out some videos that show people, you know, show somebody who is athletic looking and has aesthetic goals that, you know, some guys want, and maybe that will encourage more guys do yoga.

So that's, that's, yeah, that's how it started.

Reaching a Broader Audience
---

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Yeah, when did you realize, though, that your audience really wasn't, you know, your, your teammates, it was others who were, you know, looking to you now to help them on their fitness journey?

Dean: Yeah, I mean, pretty quickly in, you know, I, I think I was somewhat surprised to realize that, yeah, the guys who were doing the workouts weren't 22 year olds looking to get jacked. Mostly it was guys who were in their forties, fifties for whom, you know, the typical forms of exercise were out of reach.

You know, they had, they had joint pain, they had back pain, they had knee pain. They were, you know, slightly overweight or very much overweight and they hadn't prioritized their health. And so these were guys who were trying to get back into a habit of being consistent with working out or for many working out consistently for the first time, these are guys who also, you know, just had, not had to prioritize their health, but you know, as they got older, they had, you know, some of them had, maybe they had a scary conversation with their doctor where they were like, oh, okay, I can't keep doing what I'm doing or I'm not going to live that much longer.

Or they were realizing, oh, like, you know, I'm kind of sick of being in pain. Um, you know, and rather than being mad about being in pain when I was 10 years ago, 10 years younger, I'm going to do something about it. So pretty quickly on, I realized that the guys who I was helping were, were not, you know, the, the, they weren't just different versions of me.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Right, right.

Building a Facebook Community
---

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): And then you moved from that from, you know, the, you know, engaging on the YouTube channel to actually starting a Facebook group and that was what a couple years in

Dean: Yeah. I think I started the Facebook group. I would say relatively quickly. Yeah, at that point, I don't know if I had an actual product yet. I think I had been selling like one off programs. Like I think I used a, this website called Gumroad way back in the day. And I created, you know, a few workout programs.

They were usually like five or six workouts, 20 or 30 minutes each. Some of them are longer, but that was like, yeah, that was like my main, basically I was, yeah, for a long time, I was basically do I was also doing personal training and I was doing group coaching and doing one on one webcam training for a long time. I pretty much just used the money from that to throw into trying to create this online product. And it really didn't, you know, it really wasn't a success until I launched a members area and an app in 2016. But to that, to that, up until that point, yeah, I had been trying to get people to interact within, you know, a Facebook group.

That was how I, congregated people and it took a really long time to get that Facebook group to the point that it was kind of self sustaining and people were, it wasn't just me responding to comments and it wasn't just me trying to create conversations. And yeah, now we have a very, you know, a very, active, very motivating very supportive Facebook group. And I love the culture that we've developed there because it isn't just about posting workouts and showing, Hey, look, I did a workout. Look at me, look at me. It's, it's people who are supporting one another and people who are realizing, Oh, Oh, I'm going through this really tough time with trying to get back into working out and other guys chime in and say like, Oh, me too. So it's really cool because we have developed this culture where it's very supportive. It's, it's not judgmental. It's not focused on shame based motivation. It is focused on, you know, helping to, helping guys practice and, and, and the people on the receiving end of that, recognizing, oh, like this is normal. I'm on the right track. This is cool.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Right, right. If you think back to it, though, was there something specific or anything that you thought you wanted to get out of that Facebook community? Because you had already identified your YouTube audience was different than what you had initially thought you would have. With that in mind, like, most people who are creating content just continue engaging on that channel, they don't create like a, you know, a private group for, for members to, or for people to join and, and engage, like, what, what were you hoping to, to accomplish with it?

Dean: I don't really know at the time. I think I wanted a place where people could, I think even back then, I knew that I wanted to develop a community. I knew that I wanted to create this sense of, I don't know if sense of belonging is the right term. I wanted to create a place where people could have conversations and yeah, I have community regarding the workouts regarding, you know, the health and wellness goals that I was, I was trying to encourage with, with Man Flow Yoga.

So I knew that I wanted to have a community and Facebook was and is very popular. And you know, rather than just having YouTube comments, I created the Facebook group so that people could actually have discussions and, you know, we could talk about things and I could lead conversations based on things that I wanted to talk about that might not come through on the videos.

So, yeah.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Yeah. And then when you launched your digital product and really started to bring a lot of the work you were doing together in that space, you, you included community components as well, like an ability for people to respond and engage.

Dean: Yeah, I mean, the Facebook group is part of it. One thing I do like about what I did with the Facebook group is I restricted it to people who purchased products. So I think because of that, it has been and continues to be a really high quality group of men. And some women, some women too. But you know, we don't have people in there spamming the group with, with things and it, it very, can't remember the last time it happened.

And people are very respectful if they do post anything that's non Man Flow Yoga related, like they'll message me and be like, Hey, is it okay if I share this, this diet plan that I came up with? I'm like, yeah, sure. It's great.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Right,

Dean: So yeah, like at this point, I'm not really concerned that people are going to share something and it's. You know, everyone's going to be like, oh, this guy's great. You know, let's, let's go over there and abandon Man Flow Yoga entirely. It's, really about creating this supportive community where people can share things that have worked for them and, and also share, Hey, I'm like, I'm struggling with this.

Does anybody have any ideas? But not just the logistical side, but also like the supportive, the you know, just having, just having someone say, Hey, that sucks. You know, cause very often that, that is more of what people need compared to the, the solution.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Yeah, yeah, they really need to understand that they're being heard and that they're not the only ones going through those same challenges. I see it often on the community.

Dean: Yeah. Yeah. And that's something that I'm really proud of with the community. It is a, and yeah, it's part of it is just the, the guys who are coming in. I mean, I would assume that I had some influence on that and the way that I responded and just the, but yeah, I think there's also, it's really just the, the types of guys that we have coming in. It is this community of men who are very supportive of one another and yeah, there's, there's not, know, the, there's not the shame based motivation. There's not the, I think it's, I think it's just the type. I think it's just the guys who are tending, you know, who tend to sign up. There's much less of the, much less of the, "man I had a terrible day and my wife left me and my dog died, but I still, still did my workout."

You know in that case

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Right,

Dean: like it's in this case where my, or my partner left me and my cat died or whenever, whatever we want to say, but like. The, just the, the mentality is much more forget self forgiving, right?

So instead of that, it's more like, Hey, like I had a bad day so I decided to take the day off and people are like, great.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Right.

Dean: Take a mental day. Perfect. You know, don't like, don't force yourself to do things all the time. So yeah, I like the community that we've developed.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): I feel like you modeled a lot of that behavior, even in the videos you were creating, because there, there was a lot of, or there is, continues to be a lot of explanation, a lot of, okay, and here's how you adapt this. And okay, not every man is going to be able to do this. So, you know, aim for what you can versus, you know, trying to imitate what I do.

I feel like you built that, even early, like really early on, you built that into everything you were creating. So I think it's a natural extension that your community would reflect that.

Dean: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that is something that I consciously tried to do because this is and has been yoga designed for men who are not as flexible and who have not done yoga. So, you know, I always try to think back to what did I do when I was first getting started with yoga? How did I modify? And, you know, I've, up until I started doing pretty much everything online I worked with a lot of, a lot of guys and I learned like, okay, like this is your body. This is how we're going to modify this. And this is how we can make this pose work for you. So, and that's also something that kind of distinguishes Man Flow Yoga from every other type of yoga. It's like, Hey, no, the expectation is that you are not flexible.

And so we're going to start with that instead of saying, reach down and touch your toes. And if you can't quite do that, then stack three blocks and find another yoga class. I don't, I don't know. But like, you know, the point is that I recognize who I'm working with and that is the, are the guys that I want to work with.

And so I make, you know, the technique guidance aimed at them.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Right, right.

The Better Man Podcast
---

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): And to me, it felt like a natural extension because you moved from, you know, just focusing on building that community to even launching a podcast called The Better Man Podcast. Did you see that as a natural extension?

Dean: I didn't know. I mean, I don't think I thought that I would start a podcast a few years ago. I saw it as a compliment to what I was doing with Man Flow Yoga. And I was, I was doing a lot of the, hey, here's physical fitness. And, you know, my whole thing with Man Flow Yoga has been that this is yoga for fitness.

You know, I don't integrate the emotional components or I don't integrate a life advice component to the workouts because for me, working out has always been a physical fitness experience. It has been, hey, what exercise am I doing? Cool. How do I do it properly? Cool. What should I avoid? Okay. How should I make this better?

It's always been, I grew up an athlete. So like, you know, the experience of me going into a yoga studio and having it be a semi physical fitness, semi spiritual thing, I was like, cool but like, that's not for me. You know, working out has always been working out. It's, it hasn't been, it wasn't what they were trying to explain it to me as in yoga studio.

So that's another reason kind of why I created Man Flow Yoga to make it the physical fitness workout. But I say all of that because I felt like I was getting the physical fitness component with Man Flow Yoga, but I was also, and still am very interested in the other components, I'm very interested in overall self development, part of that being physical fitness, but physical fitness is really just an enabler. Physical fitness enables you to have the energy and the vitality to be able to do the things that you want to do, but on the other side of that, you have to do those things, right? It's not just about working out and reaching a certain physical fitness level or looking a certain way in the mirror. It's about working out so that I can, so that I can address these other aspects of my health.

So I can work on my, my mental health. I can work on my emotional wellness. I have the ability to deal with, um, anxiety and stress. And so I started The Better Man Podcast as a way to compliment physical fitness. Right. And so that was where I talked more about getting into, you know, let's talk about your, your darkest moments and how you came out of that.

How did you become stronger as a result of that? And what are some aspects of our health that we tend to ignore and what do we, what do we ignore as men? How do we gaslight ourselves? And so it was a, it was a way to explore that other aspect of wellness and self development that I wasn't doing with the workouts.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Right, right, and you, I feel like you consistently incorporate everything that's going on because now that you're looking at kind of the next era or the next generation of the work you're doing.

Man Flow Engage and Future Plans
---

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): So building on top of Man Flow Yoga and the podcast, you're now building, Man Flow Engage. Is that the?

Dean: Mm hmm.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): right?

So

Dean: Yeah.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Are now building another program that is really community based and I loved even from the beginning of it, you started doing calls with members of the community. I remember like I was a subscriber and then became a lifetime member. And I remember you reaching out and saying, here's what I'm working on.

Dean: Yeah.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): I want to talk this through with members of the community and really start to understand it and turning that community aspect into part of the product or into a product that you're offering. I love, when did you, when did you kind of see all of those coming together?

Dean: I don't know if I had a, if I, there was an exact date when I saw it all coming together, I think I saw it as kind of a natural extension of The Better Man Podcast where I wanted it to be like this holistic wellness focused platform where we could talk about everything. And that was the first launch of Engage and that was, that was Engaged 1.0 or beta 1.0. And it was actually kind of a bit of, I would call it more of a flop. It really wasn't well received. It was, it just wasn't really well received. It didn't have a lot of the things that the version 2.0 had. It was more focused on live calls that I would do once per week and it didn't, it just, yeah, it promised too much and it really didn't deliver that much. And what I thought would be organic conversation happening, your know, that would be prompted by its participants that, that didn't happen. And so it didn't really become what I wanted it to become. And then we kind of went back to the drawing board.

We came up with beta version 2, we focused much more on creating opportunities for other people to interact with one another. So we had things like, you know, we have things like watch parties where you watch a workout together. We have a Friday happy hour. We have, open group coaching calls. So we brought on man full yoga coaches to have conversations about motivation and consistency and about nutrition and about integrating yoga with other workouts. And so it was a way for people to have community around these, these themes that people were interested in getting deeper on. We had a monthly wellness theme. I say past tense because, you know, we're actually phasing out Engage beta two. Um, this is going to be the last, as of this recording, we're in November right now.

So this is going to be the last month. We haven't made the public announcement yet, but I'm assuming that this podcast episode isn't going to go live until at least a couple of days later. So, um, so yeah, we're, we're phasing it out.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): It will be after.

Dean: It will be after, okay, cool.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Yeah.

Dean: So, yeah, we're, we're, I mean, but we've learned a lot and we want to, we want to be able to take some of what we've done with Engage into the Man Flow Yoga community on a larger scale.

So. Yeah, I mean, you know, behind it, there, there is this desire to create a more engaged community. Yeah, just the current iteration didn't play out the way that we wanted it to. And so we'll go back to the drawing board and we'll figure out how to, how to do it differently.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Right. And the beauty of it is you have a community to build from, you know, you have put so much time and energy into cultivating your community that I would say you're in a better position than most people trying to do the kind of things you're trying to do. Because they're trying to start from zero, and you're starting with an already engaged, already excited community who wants more, and it's just a matter of figuring out what that more looks like.

Dean: Yeah, for sure.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Yeah. I love it Dean. Like I, just watching that whole journey that you've been on has been incredible to watch because I think a lot of, a lot of fitness creators and other creators, they're focused on what am I producing? What am I putting out there? And then they just look at the stats and they like, I remember you responding to random questions all over the YouTube videos, which I'm assuming when you weren't even making money from it, like that was a lot of your time.

Dean: Yeah, I mean, but I kind of saw that as my job. So I didn't really think of it as like, you know, I just saw it as, always, I always saw it as, you know, I'm going to create an engaged following and we'll see what happens from there. But yeah, I mean, it was always, it always felt like it was worth it. And then, you talked a bit about doing coaching. You talked about doing, um, calls with people one on ones. Yeah, I, I've, I mean, from one perspective, it's, from a purely business perspective, it's also a really great way to actually figure out what do people want and what are the objections in real time. And so, you know, I do it because it's also really good for community building, but it's also the best way to learn what people want and what they're excited about and what they're just kind of meh about. And so, you know, and, we actually got a significant amount of people to sign up for Engage just by me doing those one on one calls. Totally, totally not scalable, like I can't just do, you know, a hundred calls a week for however long and then expect that to be how we get new people to sign up. I mean, I guess I could, if it was like. A lot more expensive, but at like $30 or $50 a month, you know, it's not. But yeah, it was, it was a really good way to get people in as well. People, the same people who were doing the calls were the ones who were kind of interested and wanted to, you know, get the final, you know, ask some questions and decide to go in.

So I've always been pretty good about, we've always made it a habit to, to do surveys on a regular basis and to, you know, over the years we've also done just like, we've just opened up our calendars. We've had, we've got people on the team, know, we've got a four or five person team at any given time.

So we had everyone on the team just open up their calendar. And for a couple of weeks, we just did research calls. We just said, okay, how'd you find Man Flow Yoga? What are you using it for? And you know, what do you like about it? And so we've done those. So we have a pretty good idea of who our customers are and what they like and you know, what they struggle with.

So, yeah, it's just been. You know, Engage was trying to out, okay, does this iteration does this version of a product help people with these goals? And it just didn't do as well as we wanted it to. So, you know, back to the drawing board and figure out how to ultimately, how do we, how do we help people? How do we enable people to do what they physically want to do for as long as possible, to have a high quality of life and live independently for as long as possible? Not, not how do they live as long as possible, but how do they live a high quality life for as long as possible? And, you know, the main way that we do that is through these workouts and programs and videos and yes, offering some community options, but you know, so we're trying to figure out, well, what are the ways that people are going to want this support? And that's the, that's where, you know, talking with people directly is really helpful.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think you and the team do an amazing job of listening, ensuring that people feel seen, ensuring that they feel heard and understood. You're always, I feel like you're always responding to that, whether it's suddenly, you know, they get a Monday email and Dean has released a new video, addressing whatever topic people have been bringing up.

I feel like that, that's just incredibly common in, in your space, like in Man Flow Yoga. And I feel like it's, it's validating for, for folks in the community.

Dean: Yeah. I mean, you know, I think you look, you can look around and not everyone does that. And I understand why, because it's really time consuming. It's time consuming to do that. It takes energy and you know, there's, there's, there's inflation. There's people are not spending as much money. And so like the focus can shift to like, crap, how do we get more customers?

And you can. It's easy to forget to nurture, you know, your existing community and to pay attention to those people. So, know, I've, I've always tried to remember that community is the most important part of the, of Man Flow Yoga. And so I, you know, I want to know what are you guys struggling with? And hey, it looks like there's some pretty common challenges here.

That's the other thing. Like if one person has that challenge, then, you know, other people are going to have it. That's, that was the whole, that concept was the whole idea behind creating Man Flow Yoga. Hey, if I like yoga and I want to do it in a certain way, then there are other men who are going to want it like this too.

So Yeah.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Yeah. I think it's fantastic. Just

Dean: thank you.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): The way all of this comes together, the way you drive it. I think part of it is your mindset.

The Importance of Vulnerability
---

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): I've noticed you bring a certain amount of vulnerability to what you do. Um, whether it's the podcast or, or even within the community, it's not, I am the fitness expert and you know, I am the perfection you need to pursue.

It's, I am a real person. And my challenges may not be the exact same as yours, but I still have challenges too. Even talking about, you know, after being sick, giving yourself the grace, giving yourself the time to recover before you dive back in. I mean, those kind of things, I feel help the community see you as a person and feel more connected, feel more accepted.

Dean: Yeah. I mean, I think the more that I've practiced vulnerability, the more it's done for me. I think the more that, the more, the more that I'm, the more willing I am to be uncomfortable and put myself out there with something that I might not be received well for the more it's helped me connect with other people.

And that that's consistent with the Man Flow Yoga community. That's consistent with my relationship with, with my wife, with my partner. With my, with my parents, with my siblings, the more that I can lean into the things that I'm uncomfortable to say, the, the, the more helpful that has been. And, you know, in the context of me being the fitness expert, me telling people, hey, like, yeah, dude, like I miss my workouts and sometimes I fall off the wagon and sometimes, sometimes I don't want to do yoga two or three times a week and I I'm doing more weightlifting than yoga right now, or, you know, I used to walk every day for an hour and now I'm only doing it like 10 minutes a day, or, you know, just telling people the truth that, you know, I go up and down with my fitness and, that's normal. I think it helps normalize it for other people. I think, you know, there's a lot of the, the all or nothing perfectionist mentality that says that if I don't do everything that I planned on doing, then why do it at all?

And. Yeah, I mean, what's been a really cool shift is when you see people who have been consistent with fitness enough that when they do get off track, they don't look at the future as, oh man, well, am I going to do my workout program or not? They look at it like, Oh, you know, I'm getting back into it. I'm just, you know, I'm getting back into it.

It's not a question of whether or not I'm going to do it. It's just, I'm easing back into it, you know? So I think that's a really cool shift and that happens by normalizing this experience of you're not perfect all the time and you're going to miss things . Life gets in the way and your workouts are not the most important thing.

And, you know, we all get sick, you know, and thanks to, you know, thanks to 2020 now we have this really cool flu that goes around that not only makes you sick for a few days, but also like takes you out for a month, physical fitness wise. So, you know, people are going to have maybe even more of these periods of not working out and not doing what you feel like you want to do.

And having to start at a level that you didn't think you'd sink to. And so it's,

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Right.

Dean: normalizing that

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Yeah.

Future Vision
---

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): So moving forward, like what's, what's your vision? I mean, you, you have such a community driven business. Like what's, what's your vision? What would you love to see happen in the next couple of years within the community?

Dean: I think depth. I think that's what I wanted. That's what I really wanted to create with, with Engage. I wanted to create more depth of experience. I wanted people to connect on a deeper level. I wanted people to be able to connect more frequently. I wanted it to be, you know, instead of just text and forum based, which is the Facebook group, I wanted there to be, wanted there to be video calls.

I want there to be people reaching out to one another. I want there to be challenges that happen outside of Man Flow Yoga workouts. Like, hey, we're going to be doing like a reading challenge, 20 minutes a day. Who wants to join, know, right now in Engage, for example, we have a weightlifting group. People are, who have not some people who have not been, who have not ever done weightlifting consistently. And others who have following along to a weightlifting program that I designed, um, all together, there's like 18 people in this group, and it's the most active part of the Engage community right now. So, it's about depth of experience and going beyond just yoga, recognizing that the goal is to help people live healthier lives. To do what they physically want to do for as long as possible to be able to be consistent with their workouts to be able to have healthy eating guidelines and to make all of this as easy as possible. To make this, this is just a normal part of, you know, their life. Like living a healthy life is just something that we do as a community and it's, it doesn't feel forced and it feels fun and it feels enjoyable.

And so that's not just yoga. That's all the different things that go into it. So, know, that could be me sharing lots of other things that I do. You know, with, with Engage, it's been bringing in and, and, and, shifting these coaches into Man Flow Yoga, bringing in coaches who can compliment me and may not be the only person in front of the camera. Me not be the only person in the members area, but have these other experts that people can rely on and to hear different perspectives and to be able to actually interact with people because, you know, as, as much as I'd love to clone myself and just everybody gets, you know, Dean is their personal coach and motivator.

That's, know, it's not realistic. So, getting people more support and figuring, again, figuring out like, what does that look like and do people want that? And yeah, so it's, depth.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): This is awesome. Is there anything I haven't asked you about Man Flow Yoga, about Engage, about the community that you wish I had?

Dean: No, I think you touched on, I think you touched on the vulnerability thing well. I think for me, I realized that, um, know, I don't know if, uh, I don't know if saying this makes me sound like an asshole or, it makes me sound, I don't know. I don't know how it might make me sound, but, um, for me, I've realized that vulnerability is a superpower, like in my own personal experience, in my life with Man Flow Yoga and also in my own life.

And I actually got a tattoo in the beginning of this year. It's not, you can't see it very well, but it's a, it's a black panther. And to me, it means courageous authenticity. And part of that is expressing the things that I feel uncomfortable to express because over and over in my life, me being vulnerable and expressing things has always led to better outcomes. So, yeah, I think that is, I think that's crucial for community. I think, yeah, if people are, If you're just putting out an inauthentic message, I think people pick up on it. I think the subconscious, I mean, I even think about, I even thought about like the things that I don't say and recognizing, oh, like, you know, I don't talk about money. In Man Flow Yoga are on the podcast, but I guarantee you that people who listen like probably have similar beliefs about money because like subconsciously it just comes through. So, like, there are things that are not only consciously conveyed, but the things that are not conveyed are also subconsciously conveyed.

So, you know, I think that it's for some people, it is easy to, to be bullshitters and to be heard, right? It's. We're, you know, pretty easy to see that that's happening in the world. But I think it's also, you know, the people who can pick up on that, they're like, wow, people are falling for that?

And yeah, I think, you know, I, I try to be I am and as unapologetic for that as possible. So, I mean, that's something I'm still figuring out. I think there's a lot of things that I'm scared to say and things that I just know have to be off topic. But like the things that I think people can relate to and the things that I think people can benefit from in terms of vulnerability and, you know, saying unspoken things.

I think those are the things that I try to try to do, to create community.

Kevin Micalizzi (he/him): Yeah, and it's a journey. I mean, you know, it's, it's a choice. Every time you have a conversation. Yeah, I love this Dean. Thank you so much for doing this call.

Dean: You're welcome, Kevin. Thanks for having me, having me on.