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We want to talk about all things periods and how they affect our daily lives as chemists at Oxford. We would love to here your views and opinions:
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Periodically, the podcast that covers all things periods and chemistry!
Each week, over this series of six episodes, we here at the University of Oxford will be taking a deep-dive into just how periods have affected us in tutorials, exams, labs and just generally studying at undergrad. We want to talk about how periods can sometimes just get in the bloody way!
Periodically is funded by the Royal Society of Chemistry Equality and Diversity fund.
[00:00:00] Lottie: Periodically is back for season two. We are still going to be talking to you about all things periods and chemistry, but this time we have a twist. This year we are very grateful to welcome guests onto the podcast from all over the UK. In our next six episodes our guests will be talking to us about their experiences with menstrual and reproductive health, where we take a deep dive into topics ranging from endometriosis, pregnancy and the menopause, to name a few. Our guests represent a wide range of experiences and are at different points in their career and we hope this will shed light on the impact that menstruation can have at all points in our lives. We still continue our quest to find out and talk about how menstruation can sometimes just get in the bloody way. This year we'd like to thank the RSC Inclusion and Diversity Fund, the University of Oxford Chemistry Department and the EPSRC funded OxICFM CDT for supporting the podcast.
[00:01:01] Sofia: Hello and welcome back to another episode of Periodically Season Two. Your hosts today are me, I'm Sofia, I'm a fourth year chemist at the University of Oxford and...
[00:01:10] Lottie: Hi, I'm Lottie. I'm also a fourth year chemist at the University of Oxford and we're also very happy to be joined by our guest today, Chiara.
[00:01:17] Chiara: Hello, thank you for having me. I'm Chiara Cocco, and I'm a postdoctoral research associate at the Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Caucus at Heriot-Watt University, Edinburgh.
[00:01:28] Sofia: So today we're going to be talking about the research that's being undertaken by initiatives like the EDI Caucus to investigate the impact of menstrual health in research and innovation. So the EDI Caucus is an initiative funded by the UKRI, so the UK Research Institute, with support from the British Academy and it aims to accelerate equity across the research and innovation ecosystem through the development of evidence bases, piloting of interventions and increasing the diversity literacy of decision makers across research and innovation. So today we are going to be talking about the research that is being undertaken by the EDI Caucus to investigate the impact of menstrual health in research and innovation.
[00:02:05] Lottie: Chiara, can you tell us a bit about your work on the EDI Caucus? A bit about what it is, what its aims are and what you've been working on?
[00:02:12] Chiara: Yeah, sure, so the Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Caucus, short EDICA, is a project to create inclusive research and innovation cultures and we want to really enable diverse researchers to not just access, but also thrive in careers across the research and innovation systems. So we want to remove Barriers to full participation that are usually experienced by women, disabled individuals, LGBTQI or racially minoritised researchers and researchers with caring responsibilities. We are a focal point for identifying, evaluating, and synthesising EDI initiatives across the research and innovation systems and want to ensure research addresses the needs of a diverse range of stakeholders. Using evidence reviews, EDICA will coordinate and disseminate interdisciplinary research to address the stubborn inequalities which are still rampant across the research and innovation systems, creating national and international communities of practice equipped to build the inclusive research cultures that we need that are urgently required and this is why I'm very happy to be here. My work in the caucus actually, yeah, focus on the interaction between the career cycle and the life cycle. So career events such as recruitment, selection, performance review, promotion. Promotion and life events such as care responsibilities, maternity, paternity, but also perimenopause, disability, neurodiversity and to see how they interact with each other and what the barriers and challenges are. The study that we're undertaking to explore this research is to look at how researchers or people working in the research and innovation systems manage periods, problematic menstruation perimenopause and menopause at work. So what we've been doing, we've been obviously doing an evidence review, we reviewed the literature and we looked and unsurprisingly this is a topic that is not well researched, it's under researched, it's poorly understood, it's still a very stigmatised topic. There's a lot more talk and conversation and policies and research around menopause, but not enough about periods. I wonder why that is, and not a few reasons why, which is obviously the fact that it's still a very silenced and taboo sort of topic out there and other gaps are regarding, for example, the workspaces. So the research and studies that have been carried out focus more on desk based jobs and offices and this sort of environment, so there's a lot of work environments and sectors that are still unexplored and there is a complete lack of intersectional research in this area. So the experiences of, for example, trans men menstruating or going through perimenopause or menopause, non binary people, and also ethnic minorities as well. So these are gaps that we really wanted to address and what we've done was to put a call out for interviews and we've actually talked to over 55 people working in the research and innovation system and just from very different work environments and sector and job roles and it was really fascinating to hear the different challenges and the different experiences and the different needs that people do have. So that is something that we are really addressing and after that, by talking to these people, we're also gauging, possible interventions that could be put in place and effective and practical solutions, that are urgently needed and we are working with test sites that are from both academia and private sector and charities and government to actually trial these interventions. So, we're working with them, the approach of the caucus, that's something that I haven't said, is to co design, interventions. So, we really want to not just having this top down approach as the researchers and you, the communities, but actually putting people together, the different stakeholders, coming together, negotiating and discussing, brainstorming a solution, interventions, lived experiences to then trial these interventions. So we are at that stage. I'm very excited with what we're doing, it feels really good. On the other hand, it often is depressing to hear the barriers, the challenges, the experiences of trauma and difficulties, and also to sometimes kind of face ourselves. Also, we start with putting interventions together or coming up with solutions, but then it doesn't really follow through, and that is something that we're a bit struggling at the moment, but we are getting there, we are just trying and conducting this work.
[00:07:26] Sofia: Thank you, that sounds really cool and really interesting and just such important work to be carrying out. Could you tell us more about what the response to the project has been in your experience so far?
[00:07:35] Chiara: I think EDI in general is gaining momentum, which is great and I think that tagging along in a big EDI project with work on menstruation, perimenopause, and menopause has been quite useful. Our PI, Professor Kate Tsang, has done work on it already and the fact that, like, she's such an important name also gives us that sort of credibility as well, which is very important and although menstruation periods are still silenced topics, they are also gaining some sort of momentum. So the response, the fact that like a lot of researchers, first of all, did want to speak to us and share their experiences, that was great. I genuinely didn't expect that level of responses, so that was absolutely fantastic and the fact that like quite a lot of organisations have come up offering to be test sites and to work with us, that was also a surprise, a really pleasant surprise. So that means that work is happening and change is happening. There is the potential of change out there, there are still systemic barriers to it however, and so there's a lot of work to still be done.
[00:08:56] Sofia: So in terms of the response, did you notice differences across different age groups and different positions from the people you were interviewing?
[00:09:03] Chiara: I must say that the response was quite diverse and the fact that we comprise, I think, periods, problematic menstruation, perimenopause and menopause gave us that breadth in a sense of experiences. So, you know, I would have expected probably to have more people talking about menopause because now menopause is a bit more, you know, it's more out there, but actually it was very varied and you know, every time I got a booking for an interview, I didn't know what to expect and I was like, is it going to be menopause? endometriosis? Or is it going to be periods in the lab? Or, you know, I never know and it was always different and in terms of work environments as well, it was diverse because we are obviously addressing such a wide sector. So the work environments were really different. So yes, speaking to people who do fieldwork, that was extremely interesting and mind blowing on how people have to manage symptoms of periods. Even normal, whatever that might mean, periods, but doing it in very challenging environments is just something that you don't think about if you just do a desk based job. But desk based job, for example, that's another thing, you know, have other sets of challenges. For example, not all offices have a shower that you can wash and you know, get changed if you get unpredictable and heavy periods or if you are in your perimenopause and having floodings, you know, the response has been diverse and age as well has been also quite a wide range of experiences, which I think makes our study quite important because it comprises so many different lived experiences.
[00:10:48] Lottie: And have you noticed a difference in terms of where you're implementing your trial studies in terms of perhaps if it's academic or industry? Have you noticed differences in what's already in place or how they want to implement things or differences in response perhaps?
[00:11:02] Chiara: Yeah, no, definitely. So clearly, there's a lot of different elements to consider. So you need to have to kind of gauge the baseline there. So we are based in Scotland and we are doing a UK wide study. In Scotland, we do have the Free Periods and Period Poverty Bill, which obviously encourages and has already implemented the provision of free periods products, which is not perfect, because sometimes you don't get it in all the bathrooms, in all the toilets and you know, it's not, it doesn't really address the needs of everybody, but it's something. So when you have that baseline, and then talking to other organisations, so maybe based somewhere else, where this is not, I think that's when you need to start, that's something that is like, I really need free period products in my workplace that would help and in terms of sector, for example, we've been partnering with some private organisations which are just starting themselves and that is easier to implement, to start by implementing provisions rather than organisations that are already established, like some universities, for example, or in academia, this seems to be a lot of hurdles and a lot of the structure, in a sense, still is very difficult to go through. So change is more difficult to implement. The responses, again, depending on the size of the organisation as well. So sometimes we do work, maybe like our, for example, if we're working with a university as a test site, we do tackle maybe one department rather than the whole university and sometimes that's easier. That depends on like the head of the department. So as often it happens, it's up to one person in a sense. If that person in charge is predisposed or already open to change, things might happen quite quickly. If that's not the case, then you have to go through the whole system and that is more challenging. So yeah, the responses have been different and there are I must say that obviously there are interventions that really wouldn't take much and that would be really putting free period products everywhere. That really is not a massive deal or having, for example, a quiet room or provide a hot water bottle and TENS machines for people who suffer from heavy painful periods for example, or if a person asks you for a standing desk, why not provide it? It's not big, massive changes or yeah, having accessible toilets. But then of course, we work in Edinburgh, which is full of beautiful old buildings and it's not that you change a building overnight. So sometimes creating accessible spaces doesn't happen overnight. So there are changes that are more costly and take a lot to be implemented or policies, for example, again, that really does depend on the kind of HR system and who's advising on that and that is why when we do the workshops with our test sites, we really want to put together all parts of the negotiations. So we really need decision makers to be in there. It's not just about, it is a lot about people with lived experiences that really need this sort of accommodations, but we do really need also decision makers, people who are holding the budget really, to kind of come together and negotiate. So that negotiation process is vital, otherwise, you can just say all the issues that are there and the barriers that are there. But if you're not having that conversation with those who can actually do something about it, then it's just an echo chamber.
[00:15:03] Lottie: And could you talk a bit more about some of the solutions or some of the test strategies that you're working on and have any been particularly successful or particularly difficult or not worked quite in the way you hoped they would have the effect?
[00:15:15] Chiara: Yeah we're not at the implementation stage just yet. So we just started like at the start of the year to work with our test sites. However, I can tell that across everywhere and even like from the interviews that we've been conducting, certainly training and awareness is something that we hear about and it's something that is absolutely needed because that is seen as the kind of first step to destigmatise the issue, to put it there out in the open and that's something we are actually providing ourselves. So that's what we do and we can offer, for example, to our test sites and that's what we've been actually doing. But it is important to then kind of track if it's actually been successful, because you don't want these initiatives to just being tick boxing exercises. So you need to kind of really understand if change has been made, if actually the life of people has improved at work and then, so yeah, definitely training awareness, definitely providing free period products and that's not just in relation to period poverty, it is just about having a safety net at work that, you know, could be for peace of mind because research and innovation is quite of a challenging sector on its own and there's a lot of pressure. It's often quite of a greedy and challenging and it could be quite extreme as a workplace. So you don't want to add on top of your already strenuous work. Also the labor having to think about, am I going to be leaking today? Am I going to be having pain? And what I hear from people who have to manage period is that extra work put into scheduling their own work around their cycle, around the possibility of being in pain or having to make all that extra work. So free period products sometimes do save a lot of time and worries. Others, for example, as I said before, the quiet room, that again, quite a lot of the solutions do address different needs as well, not just for people who menstruate, but for any sort of conditions, you know, having that quiet room, even for person hasn't slept throughout the night because their kid was ill or they have a child or a baby. So having the opportunity to just go in that room and not to be judged for it, being able to use your TENS machines if you need to, or a hot water bottle during a meeting, because again, the stigma around it and the taboo starts from, if you think about periods, even as it is portrayed in the media, for example, there's always that aim of concealment, of hiding and this is why for example, the period leave might not be as effective in actually serving the real needs of people who menstruate because it's still aimed at removing that person from the workplace because sometimes, you know, we talk about all the kind of period and menstrual health conditions, perimenopause and menopause and everything, and it's not necessarily they have to be debilitating for all and for a long amount of time. So, you know, sometimes you just need a couple of hours and you can still do your work. If the workplace accommodates you, you don't need to be removed and again, that goes back to that kind of social model of disability, if you want to put it that way, where the person is the one that is usually problematised. So that is the medical model, if you think about it, like if you think about the accommodation, the person is the one who is seen as the problem rather than the environment around them. So if you make adjustment to the environment, then it will be just accommodating and not disabling for all, really. So yeah, that and the fact of having a room or being able to use whatever you need and not being judged and not having repercussions, that is quite crucial. Others, yeah, could be like some policies that just accommodate, but just having it there and it is a sort of like education as well, having policies, some people do say, you know, like if there was a policy out there, I would be feeling more comfortable in just saying what my issue is or even in the HR system, when you clock in your absence, having period pain as a cause for your absence, that is a validation in a sense. So some changes are really minor. They don't require that load and one thing I also wanted to say is that we are all for being open and this is really the dream, to be able to talk about it as openly and freely as possible. But at the same time, we also need to be aware of like difference in cultures and backgrounds and everything. So, to maybe facilitate that, another initiative and strategy could be to have an advocate. So, like an EDI, sometimes some organisations do have like also a mental health champion. If having a menstrual health champion who knows where to pinpoint you, where to signpost, who knows different sort of conditions and is able to be a point of reference for that employee or PhD student who is going through any sort of like issues regarding their menstrual health, then you know, not having to necessarily go to your manager, cause again, if the manager is open or sometimes if they are a woman, that's good. Sometimes if they're a woman is actually not good because they might have a different experience. So they don't have that level of empathy to empathise with you and it's like, I've done it before, I've had it and I'm here, you know, like, I don't know what the fuss is about, you're just overreacting, so sometimes there's also that to balance. So again, having a champion, a person, a point of reference, that is also a good thing where you don't have to just stay out and it opens like I'm menstruating, you might not want to say it and that's okay, you know, but your experience is still valid and you should really get accommodation and being able to do your work best.
[00:21:46] Sofia: I like what you were saying about all of the logistics that go into having a period and managing that and then, you know, if you're feeling like you have to hide that's an added layer of logistics. But yeah, I think small changes, even stuff like accessible toilets. I know it's hard to implement more because you have to change the building and all of that, but even just knowing where they are, because often if you don't have any other disability, I don't have any disabilities, but I use a menstrual cup when I'm on my period and the first time I was in the department and I had my period, I didn't know where it was and I was really confused. I didn't know who to ask because, you know, you can't, you don't know who uses it and you don't want to be that person and yeah and I think there's also, it'd be good to champion that more and to champion the need to have access to those kinds of provisions because a lot of time when I'm using that toilet, I feel like, oh no, am I taking away someone else's resources? But I'm not because it's a genuine access need that I have in that moment. So yeah.
[00:22:39] Chiara: And I mean, it's good that you say that, thank you, because one of the things is, you know, having the sink in the Cubicle, that would sort...
[00:22:47] Sofia: That's it.
[00:22:47] Chiara: ...a lot of problems as well, like for menstrual cups because we also want to be more sustainable. So, you know, maybe like more people are going with menstrual cups or, but even changing a tampon, for example, it can be quite of a messy business and you don't want to come out with all like the blood and again, we want to normalise that. At the same time, we're not there yet, and still you want that privacy, you want that sort of accommodation, so sometimes it doesn't really take too much and again, yeah, just knowing where things are, where the accessible toilet is, just knowing that there is a policy, because sometimes, you know, I've been asked, does your work have a menopause or a period policy? I don't know. Like, who knows? And you get all the induction and even if you're going on fieldwork and you get told a lot of things about the health and safety, or you know, the induction and this is the fire alarm and this and that, but then you're actually not told about stuff that is very relevant to you what the accessible toilet is or if there is a policy that can assist if you're having any sort of issues and who to talk to if you're experiencing any problems, you know, that is the kind of things that is not embedded in at work just yet.
[00:24:04] Sofia: I'm really glad you mentioned fieldwork, actually, because one of my best friends does earth sciences here, so she goes on a lot of field trips and when we've talked about this podcast, she's always like, Oh, it'd be great if we could talk more about the fieldwork aspect of getting your period on a field trip or something like that and how do you handle that? And yeah.
[00:24:20] Chiara: Yeah, no, absolutely and again, talking about, you know, how the response has been and I really wanted to emphasise that community of practice that we really want to build, because I've been talking to so many people and I've seen that there are actually people doing this important work and people from those disciplines because I'm a cultural anthropologist and I've done my field work back home which is Sardinia in Italy where I'm from and I had my family there to support me so I had that privilege and not having to think too much about that but thinking about people who do fieldwork in remote environments or in completely different countries where they have a lot to think about, learn the language, and sometimes really remote with no access to toilets for days or, you know, that sort of preparation is essential and there are people out there doing this important work and actually including these conversations and this training as part of fieldwork preparation because it needs to be there and not just for people who have like periods or but also for people who might be pregnant or people might have any other conditions, people have intestinal problems and need toileting and just also normal hygiene is not something that is considered yet. So there are people out there who are doing this work and this is what we are trying to contribute as well and this is why the difference of experiences and environments and roles in the research and innovation system, I think add that layer of diversity and experiences.
[00:26:04] Lottie: I'm interested in what you said about the research in menopause versus periods. Do you think there's a reason that there's a bit of a discrepancy between how much it's talked about or policies or the research around menopause versus periods?
[00:26:16] Chiara: Yeah, I think the menopause have been starting to be talked about more because obviously people are, obviously more women are in the workforce now and we work for longer, like life expectancy has grown as well. So it's good that there have been these sort of conversations around it and then if you think about it, it's like, yeah, but again, women have been, like, are more in the workforce and, you know, they start working from when they're young, so they do experience periods. But again, it's just, I think, first of all, blood is something that people don't like to talk about, mostly menstrual blood, because if you cut a finger and you have a cut, you don't have any issues and say, Oh my God, I'm bleeding, or from your nose. But then talking about menstrual blood, that is something that makes people freak out and the concealment is there. So, that is something to be tackled and I was at an event in London in November, it was the launch of the Women's Health at Work Report that included periods and menstrual health, so that was quite hopeful and what was said was like, because, you know, we really hope that now periods are going to be addressed much quicker than it has been for menopause, because there's already the work on menopause being carried out. So hopefully periods can stand and the menopause study shoulder in a sense. But yeah, unless we really de stigmatise it, because it's still like menstrual blood is still seen as a very, like a toxic substance. So if that is the concept, it takes quite a long time to dismantle in a sense. So but yeah, we're out here, you guys are doing this amazing job with this amazing work, talking about it and putting experiences and so this is what we need to be doing.
[00:28:21] Sofia: Can I add in a little fun fact about menstrual blood? I read a thing about a woman who saves hers because she was a menstrual cup and then she waters her plants with her menstrual blood and it's actually really good because it's full of various nutrients and minerals and stuff. Yeah, so it's not a toxic substance. It actually promotes growth, yeah!
[00:28:37] Chiara: Yeah and if you think that, you know, and I hate doing this as, you know, like we menstruate and life exists, but you know, because that's not what we're all about, it's not, you know, baby machines or anything like that. But, If we didn't menstruate, we wouldn't be here. So, you know, it's just, it's absurd and again, I want to link this to period policies because sometimes there are countries that have implemented this period leave and those countries, the argument is because we need to protect the woman who's menstruating because we need to reserve her and the kind of discourse around it is about, still a lot about, for the function of getting pregnant and that is why that is problematic and if the culture doesn't change around it, period leave doesn't really serve the purpose. So yeah, just
[00:29:33] Sofia: There's also an interesting debate. I think we're calling it period leave because there's still all of that stigma about around periods and a lot of people might not want to have it announced that they are off because they're on their period. So maybe just sort of, maybe just including it under sick leave, you know, because it is, it's, a physical condition, it's you know, so, so that you don't, if you don't feel comfortable with disclosing that the reason you're on leave, it's because you're period, you know, but just, but not dismissing it as something that you shouldn't need leave for at the same time.
[00:30:04] Chiara: Yeah, that's why I said, you know, if we add it as a reason, you know, period related issues, or if you could say PMS, because actually PMS, you're not even bleeding then, but for some people it's way more debilitating than the actual period, and it's like, finally I got my period and my PMS is gone. To not talk about the premenstrual dysphoric disorder, which is another level of premenstrual syndrome. So, there's a lot of other things and the need to be acknowledged and that's where we need to really understand how people can be accommodated at work or how work can be just better for them. But yeah, like having it, call it period leave and having it as a sort of default when some people might not need it at all and again, without the cultural change around it and actual understanding and awareness then you could be resented for doing that. Managers are, might be discouraged to hire a woman in the first place because like, Oh, I'm going to need to give her period leave. You know, it's quite counterproductive and again, it might not serve the need of, for example, trans men who don't want to disclose their gender identity and having to do that. Again, if we talk about emotional labor, if we're talking about extra labor, that is something to be considered. So yeah, again, the more I do this work, the more, because, you know, sometimes you talk about it and it's like period leave, oh, that sounds so progressive and then you look into it and it's like, no, like there's xactually quite a lot of things to take into account.
[00:31:38] Lottie: Yeah and I think it's so important to remember that there is still a lot of stigma and shame about it, because I think, especially working on this podcast, I've accidentally, you know, people will see me as a period advocate, and I don't know how I've stumbled into that, but also, you know, I got my period the other week and was absolutely mortified that I was going to have to speak to someone about it, and I was like come on, like, if you're not gonna do it, who is? You know, you're on a podcast called Periodically, but, you know, like, just because we are able to talk about it in some circumstances or, you know, there is this work going on, to sort of assume that means there's no longer this stigma around it and that everyone is going to sort of automatically be able to talk to managers or people around them about their experiences is not helpful because that is assuming things that haven't yet happened and although we'd like that to happen, the reality of being someone who you might think you might be the only person having a period in that environment and talking about it is so much more complicated than it might first appear and it's about, it can feel more than about just having that confidence because like you say, you don't want to be in a situation where you don't want to disclose it in case you're not hired because you might, you know, be renowned maybe for talking about your period and making people uncomfortable and there is that reality of not wanting to make people uncomfortable and for them not to like you and so, you know, have that, have career implications and things. So I think that's a really good point of how things can be much more complicated than they might first appear.
[00:33:04] Chiara: Yeah, absolutely. We are in this bubble here in this room talking about periods and we're so comfortable doing that. But then, yeah, you have to kind of face the world out there and, you know, like, I do that myself, I'm actually quite enjoying, you know, making people uncomfortable, talking about periods, you know, at the Sunday dinner. It's like, yeah, menstrual blood. Yeah, that's what I talked about today at work and it's great, but you cannot do that in every circumstance and I do ponder and sometimes really weigh that in and when I, sometimes I don't disclose what I do, because sometimes I am uncomfortable and I might feel even in danger, you know, like if you, ah, you're that feminist, you know, you don't want to do that if you're in certain circumstances.
[00:33:47] Sofia: I think, yeah, there's so much with just anything, women's issues and all of that still aren't taken seriously in so many different contexts and even like, like you were saying, Lottie, with being a champion for periods and that kind of stuff, even if you didn't mean to become one and so my master's research project has recently taken a turn where I'm looking into the corrosion of copper and especially in the context of copper IUDs, infrared current devices, which is really cool and I'm really enjoying that, but I'm also finding it like sometimes I have to justify it to myself that this is a good sort of direction to go into because it's women's health and you know, I love that but also will everyone else see it with the same sort of passion that I have for it and what if it's, what if they think it's silly that I'm looking into that and it's not, it's a really important thing but I have to sort of mentally remind myself that, yeah.
[00:34:34] Lottie: I think we could talk to Chiara all day.
[00:34:36] Sofia: We could, we really could. Thank you so much, Chiara. You've said so much really interesting stuff and the work that the EDI Caucus is just doing is amazing. Do you have any final thoughts about what workplaces and what academia can do in general to improve the experiences of people who menstruate?
[00:34:53] Chiara: Yeah, I know that, you know, change might take a while and I know we talked about interventions and some are really easy and quick fix in a sense. Some others do require funds, require efforts and a really more open mind about change. But the kind of bottom line is that people really do want to do their job, they want to contribute to knowledge, especially in research, innovation careers, so allowing people to do their job at their best isn't a waste of resources, so it's just an investment.
[00:35:29] Lottie: Thank you so much, I think we could definitely talk to you all day, but a huge thank you for being such a fantastic guest and having so much knowledge about so many different topics. We've learned so much from you and I'm sure our wonderful listeners have too. We hope you enjoyed our discussion around menstruation in the workplace and if you're interested in learning more about today's topic, then please visit Chiara's work at edicaucus.org.ac.uk and to find more about the podcast, you can find us at periodicallyoxchem.wixsite.com, or follow us on social media @periodically_ox. Tune in next week for our next episode.
Again, we'd like to thank the RSC Inclusion and Diversity Fund, the University of Oxford Chemistry Department and the EPSRC funded OxICFM CDT for supporting the podcast.