Resting Business Face and Other Virtual Sales Traps | TFOS E21

In this episode of The Future of Selling, host Rick Smith sits down with Julie Hansen—actor-turned-sales pro, coach, and author of Look Me in the Eye, Act Like a Sales Pro, and Sales Presentations for Dummies. Julie breaks down the specific, learnable on-camera behaviors that increase credibility, engagement, and executive presence in Zoom/Teams meetings, sales demos, and leadership presentations.

You’ll learn why “feeling comfortable” on camera isn’t the same as making an impact, how to read “resting business face,” and simple ways to get more interaction without turning your meeting into a monologue. Julie also shares her six-stage model for virtual presence, common mistakes even tech leaders make, and a few actor tricks to keep your energy, authenticity, and connection high—especially when your audience’s cameras are off.

If you lead a sales team or want to convert more meetings to second calls, this conversation is a masterclass.

Connect with Julie Hansen https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliehansensalestraining/
 https://juliehansen.live/

Connect with Rick Smith https://www.linkedin.com/in/rick-smith-094b29b
Connect with Conquer https://conquer.io/

Creators and Guests

Host

Rick Smith

Chief Customer Officer at Conquer, Host of The Future of Selling Podcast, Eternal Student

What is The Future of Selling?

The Future of Selling is the go-to podcast for sales professionals looking to sharpen their skills and stay ahead in the competitive world of B2B sales. Each episode features expert interviews, real-world case studies, and actionable tips to help you navigate the complex B2B buyer's journey. Whether you're dealing with long sales cycles, multiple decision-makers, or rapidly changing technologies, we’ve got you covered. Tune in to discover the latest trends, best practices, and proven strategies for closing more deals and building lasting relationships in the B2B space. Perfect for sales leaders, account managers, and anyone aiming to master the art of B2B selling.

Future Of Selling (00:01.864)
All right, hey, welcome to the Future of Selling podcast where we dive into challenges, we dive into trends, innovations, anything impacting the future of sales or the sales landscape. My name is Rick Smith. I'm your host. So appreciative that you decided to join us today and be with us for the podcast. Our guest today is Julie Hansen. Now, Julie is known as a leading expert in virtual presence and sales communication. She is the founder

of performance and sales training. And she's known for helping sales teams increase their influence, credibility, and engagement in online meetings, presentations, demos. One of the other cool things about Julie, at least I find it cool because I'm kind of an aspiring author, is that Julie is also the author of three books. Now she's written Act Like a Sales Pro, which I can't wait to talk more about that.

Sales Presentations for Dummies, which I love that title. And also a best seller, Look Me in the Eye, which is a kind of subtitle there, using video to build relationships with customers, partners, and teams. So man, I'm just really super pumped to dive into this content today, because for me personally, it's very interesting. think it's going to be really interesting for our audience as well. So Julie, hey, welcome to the podcast today.

Julie (01:24.098)
Well, thank you, Rick. I'm so happy to be here.

Future Of Selling (01:26.73)
Yeah, I really appreciate it. And I think we're going to have a really good conversation today. I kind of did some research on you and some, you know, find out a little bit about you, some of your books that you've written. so I just seriously excited about the conversation. But I always like to start with a few fun facts, if that's OK with you, just because it's a good thing, right? Because, you know, I want people to listen to the podcast and certainly learn from you.

Julie (01:45.122)
boy, we'll see how fun they are.

Future Of Selling (01:52.692)
but it's also good just to kind of start with something kind of fun and just open up a little bit, your human being and all that. So anyway, you're ready? Here we go. Okay, so one, you are an actor turned sales pro turned author, speaker and coach. Do I have that sequence correct? I think I do.

Julie (02:00.586)
I'm ready.

Julie (02:12.558)
You know, I was a salesperson before I was an actor, which was actually one of the reasons I got into acting was because I got into sales and I was so uncomfortable in my own skin and couldn't take rejection. thought, well, what's kind of the fire-walking solution to this? And yeah, so it kind of developed into a whole career ultimately.

Future Of Selling (02:16.561)
got it.

Future Of Selling (02:33.0)
Right. Yeah.

Future Of Selling (02:39.732)
Wow, that's awesome. So you've been featured in more than 50 commercials, films, and TV shows as what we found out. So another good fun fact there. You've also played a supporting role in an episode of Sex and the City. So I'll tell my wife about that when she gets home later. She'll think that's really cool. And then kind of last.

Julie (02:57.998)
It was cool.

Future Of Selling (03:04.126)
Fun fact, you didn't earn a single dollar as an actor until you took this on-camera training. So what is on-camera training?

Julie (03:13.804)
Well, it's very important, especially in our virtual world. As an actor, most of what you do is in person, especially when you're new. You're doing stage, theater, and you get to play off the other, you're seeing partners and the audience gives you energy. And so it's a lot like in-person sales. You're connecting with people. And so,

I moved to New York, I live in Colorado where I'm from now. And I had the opportunity to do, you know, to audition for some film and television parts. And when I went in, I just kind of did the same thing I did, you know, when I did it in person. And they were like, after 10 seconds, like, okay, cut, thank you, we'll be in touch. And they were not in touch.

Future Of Selling (04:07.752)
Nice projection there. Yeah

Julie (04:09.422)
Yeah, I mean, you you think sales is rejection. They're rejecting your, you know, usually rejecting your product. But in acting, it's like they're rejecting you. Like they don't like the whole package. So that was a really powerful lesson to kind of, you know, deal with those emotions. But I finally had a actor friend say, have you taken any on camera classes? I was like, no, you think I should? She's like, hello. And I learned like it's a whole different

Future Of Selling (04:18.164)
Yeah. Yeah.

Julie (04:38.166)
way of communication. It's not that you turn into another person, but there are certain techniques that make it easier for your audience to connect with you and to engage them. And so that was a real turning point. And certainly it was the sort of the background for my book, Look Me in the Eye, which is when the pandemic struck and I saw everybody being given a, you know, zoom or, you know,

get on Google Meets or whatever and get a camera and go and be yourself. I was like, why are we not helping these people transition to this completely different environment where there are different rules apply and you're going to be read differently. it's not that you're necessarily, again, acting differently. You're being yourself as you would in person. But some things don't translate on camera.

Future Of Selling (05:20.937)
Right.

Future Of Selling (05:33.695)
Right. Yeah, no, I agree. I think almost as you kind of explain that, I, you know, we're whatever we are five years past, you know, the pandemic. And I was, you know, in my role even prior to that, was, you know, still using virtual tools. Right. But I still don't think I don't know if all the rules are perfectly clear or if maybe they are, but people just don't know them. So I think there's still a of opportunity for education out there.

around the end. So that's one reason kind of excited to talk to you today. You know, one of the things so I wanted I want to dive kind of dive right in and I guess we already have. So I'm completely intrigued by what you're doing, because as I was preparing doing the research, it kind of hit me that you're helping people or I think you're helping people with what many for many folks is kind of their number one fear.

Julie (06:09.176)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (06:31.078)
It's the fear of other people's opinion, right? Which sounds something like, I wonder what that person on the other side of the camera really thinks about me. Am I wrong about that? Am I right about that? I have you thought about it in those terms before?

Julie (06:40.119)
Right.

Julie (06:44.978)
Yes, I think that's a big part of it. There's I think people have reacted in different ways to that. That very natural discomfort of being on camera, especially when you're a salesperson and you're talking to a customer prospect who chooses not to be on camera. That is one of the most you know, that is really where those know, some of these acting techniques come in that are very

vital to still connect with people, even though you can't see them and sometimes not hear them. So many people just kind of blunder through that with their own techniques, like, well, if I just keep talking, then I don't have to feel the discomfort of letting this pause hang unnaturally, which feels terrible, right? And so you end up doing a monologue. Or they just somehow

choose to dismiss it and go, this is fine. I'm sure everything's fine and I'm coming across OK, because I don't really know what to do. I don't really know how to fix it. I've got my tools and I've got some lighting and a good background. So when I'm talking to somebody, what more is there? And again, I think we've done a disservice to our sales teams to not

help them navigate this world more effectively.

Future Of Selling (08:15.401)
Right, gotcha, gotcha. So your company, which is named Performance Sales and Training, so right there at the heart of it, So tell me a little bit about the company or tell us about the company, kind of what you're doing there, who you serve, and maybe how you're helping those companies or the people that you serve.

Julie (08:36.942)
I started really with teaching presentation skills because that's where that in-person engagement really, really calls on a lot of acting techniques. It's really about how we present ourselves in as authentic a way as possible within the environment. And that evolved certainly over when it...

when we went virtual to, gosh, now how do we do this online, which is a whole different animal. I also started working pretty early on with a lot of technology companies. So I've done a lot of work with the pre-sales teams and the sales teams on how do we give an effective demo? How do we keep people engaged through this thing, right? Not just kind of, I'm going to click here and I'm going to click there, and how do we make this a conversation?

So I've worked with, gosh, thousands of technology sellers over the years. So that's been sort of my base in helping them just communicate as effectively as possible and get those second calls or get the demo or move to the next stage by creating that strong connection through the camera or in person and making sure that

We are using all the tools that we have as a person and not just relying on our product or our message to do all the hard work. I would say that with people. It's like you're making your words do all the work if you're not understanding what you can do and add to this conversation as a human, either through the camera or in person.

Future Of Selling (10:28.969)
Yeah, yeah, gotcha. Do you think that do you feel like like, know, kind of the younger, younger folks, younger generation, whatever you want to call that? Are they as reliant on telling the story like that? You know, do you see that in the sales teams? Right. Is it is it a generational thing? Is it, you know, is it still is it still as relevant? I mean, you know, because back in the, you know, when I started, right, you know,

Normally you got a slide deck, you're trying to tell the story as you go through the slide deck that's going to set them up for, that's going to help them identify maybe what their issue is or whatever their whole is that they're trying to fill. Persona based, all that kind of stuff. What do you see now? Are all those things still relevant or has that changed over time? What do you think?

Julie (11:03.919)
Mm-hmm.

Julie (11:24.707)
Well, it's an interesting twist. I remember teaching in-person presentation skills. was always like trying to get people to not look at their slides. And certainly in person, you had to do some maneuvering to actually look at your slides because they're behind you or something. Now, when people are presenting virtually, they've got their deck right on their screen. So what happens is they get stuck.

Future Of Selling (11:28.713)
Okay.

Future Of Selling (11:43.765)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (11:50.932)
Right.

Julie (11:53.503)
know, heads down, even if they know it, the poll to like look at your screen and go along with the talk track there is so powerful that it becomes just more of a staged, impersonal event rather than a conversation.

Future Of Selling (12:11.435)
Yeah. Yeah. Got you. What do you think are like what are you know, I don't know. I'm always looking for ways to kind of improve my own virtual presence, if you will. Right. I do some obviously do the podcast. Do I do some other videos on leadership and growth and things like that? And like the last video that I did and want and put out a couple of weeks ago when I watched it, I'm like, wow, I love my energy in this one.

This looks, you know, I mean, I was really proud of it. I it looked really good and really communicated well. And I've had some that, you know, to me, you know, scale of one to 10, maybe they hit an eight or a nine. And then I've had others that maybe weren't so, you know, just didn't have the same energy. And I don't know if I can describe the difference between them. can just tell the difference. So for you, what are what are like three to five areas someone should focus on if they want to improve their, whether it's their executive press?

Julie (12:59.566)
Mmm.

Julie (13:07.842)
Well, I think you bring up a great point is it's very difficult to evaluate your own performance. That's really challenging. And that's kind of where I come in a lot of times is being that outside objective viewpoint. Because most people, they look at anything they've done on video. It's like, god, can't. I look terrible. I just sound terrible.

Future Of Selling (13:16.211)
Okay. Yeah.

Future Of Selling (13:34.549)
Yeah.

Julie (13:35.267)
and we get hung up on things that don't really matter to our audience. Like they're not like, well, she's got that weird thing she does with her eyebrow. They're like, do I trust this person? Do I feel a sense of connection? Does it feel like they're listening to me? So I do an assessment that measures how credible are you coming across? How engaging are you? Do you have executive presence, that confidence that?

you know, makes people feel like they're in good hands. These are the things that matter to our audience, right? And certainly there's a, you know, how you show up is a part of that, but that's where a lot of people get stuck. get, I would say there's, you know, there's six stages of sort of this virtual presence evolution. And most people, you know, it starts at the bottom with, do you know your technology? You have to get past, can you see me? Can you hear me? Like that was our biggest concern for the first, you know, two years.

Future Of Selling (14:07.617)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (14:34.156)
It's still a concern for some people.

Julie (14:35.607)
And it's, it's, and all what I'm saying is a lot of people are still stuck at these lower stages, right? They're still stuck there. The second stage is, how do I, what is, what is my appearance saying? What is my background saying? Is it supporting what I'm saying or is it giving a totally different message? You know, am I framed in a way that I look like a real person and not a floating head? You know, these things that set you up for success.

Future Of Selling (14:41.953)
Yeah.

Julie (15:03.959)
And the third stage where most people get stuck is, okay, they've got, you know, decent lighting set up. They have a look, you know, decent on camera and they get stuck at, well, now I feel comfortable. You know, I feel comfortable. I must have arrived, right? I no longer feel anxious on camera. I feel like I can be myself. And what we're doing is mistaking comfort for

you know, our internal comfort for external impact. And they are not the same thing as, I mean, you know, you've been in this business for a while that, know, there's mastery is never just about being comfortable at what you do. Like there's a lot of discomfort before we get to mastery. And so people confuse that it's like, I feel the point is to be natural. Is it? I mean, the point is to be as comfortable as possible, but it's not about your comfort. It's

Future Of Selling (15:37.9)
Got it.

Julie (16:02.691)
do you make your audience feel? Right. And so the next three stages are absolutely critical in sales, particularly or any kind of, or as a leader, when you're trying to influence people, which is how am, how do I, am I engaging my audience? Am I commanding attention from a virtual audience? There's, you know, that's a very difficult and specific skill. Am I connecting with them? Do they feel like

I am just talking to them and not at them. I'm not just monologuing and this you could be anybody. I'm building this relationship. It's really about that virtual intimacy. I feel like we could be sitting across from each other having a cup of coffee. So those are very different levels than, well, I feel okay on camera.

must be fine. So, you know, getting there just is so much more to it. And what really is ironic to me is because I work with a lot of technology teams is a lot of companies that are, you know, are selling the future of, you know, digital transformation are stuck in the virtual Stone Age. Right? You're talking about transforming someone's, you know, they're the whole way they do business and you show up and

Future Of Selling (17:05.308)
Right.

Julie (17:32.853)
you know, it could be five years ago, you know, you have not evolved at all in that way.

Future Of Selling (17:37.889)
Yeah, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, and I love those, right? So I wrote them down, hope that's okay. So, by the way, I love questions so much more than I love statements. And you asked questions. So am I engaging my audience? Am I connecting with them? And am I building a relationship, right? So how do you, like, what's a good sign for me?

that I am engaging my audience? Is it just that they're talking back to me? it, you know, hey, they're shaking their head, they're not turning the camera off? You know, I mean, how do I know that?

Julie (18:11.587)
Yeah, well, that's a great question because you're right. There's a lot of the signs that we would get in person that we associate with, well, we should be getting those same signs virtually. And if we don't, it's not working. Or if we do, it is. we have to understand, when this piece about engagement, we have to understand how virtual audiences respond. for most people,

you know, they sit in front of a computer watching a virtual meeting or call, and they have a very specific face on which I call resting business face, right? And they look like, yeah, and they look like they couldn't be less interested, right? And it just, it sends panic through everyone's.

Future Of Selling (18:55.161)
I heard that. I heard you say that this morning. Yeah, I love that.

Future Of Selling (19:02.167)
Right. Yeah.

Julie (19:07.149)
blood, right? It's like, and then we tend to speed up and we fill all the gaps and you know, all these bad habits come up because it's so awkward. And what we don't understand is that is a new behavior. That is something we have to adapt to. doesn't, it may mean they're bored, but it doesn't for sure mean they are. It's likely just, you know, there's they've been sitting in front of screen all day and they're, especially if you're giving a presentation, they're not

there with the mindset I'm gonna really engage in this, they're in a receiving mode, right? So understanding the behavior and the signs of our virtual audience and what they mean, there's a whole chapter in my book on interpreting those body language signals that we used to count on in person. And that's why I think so many people struggle with virtual, because it's like, I used to be able to read my audience and.

And now it's a little blurry, but there are some signs to know and to not mistake for the same as they are in person.

Future Of Selling (20:12.023)
Yeah, there, yeah, go ahead, keep going. Yep, sorry.

Julie (20:15.631)
Yeah, so that so to your point, like the engagement, obviously, if they are engaging with you, you're doing something right, right. But if they're not, you know, that's not necessarily a bad sign either, because I've, I've heard this from so many presenters and speakers and salespeople. like, I thought everyone just hated this presentation or this meeting, you know, and I got these great comments afterwards. So

So understanding that, you know, how we feel isn't always the reality.

Future Of Selling (20:51.725)
Got it. Got it. Is there anything specific that I should be thinking about if I'm trying? mean, if I'm trying to make it an engaging event for them, I mean, what are you know, what are like one or two things that I could do, tools I could use, if you will, that would make sure that I'm engaging my increase in the engagement of my audience, increasing the network and connect.

Julie (21:12.671)
absolutely. Absolutely. And I think most trainers focus on the, you know, what can I say? You know, what are the words I can use to make this more engaging, right? What is the content I can put out there and not focusing on, especially virtually, which is so important, how I deliver that timing, pacing, body language, et cetera. So the first thing that seems like a pretty easy, you know,

trick, but it's not because it is in fact a little more complicated, is looking at your audience. Like if there is, you know, it's built in our brains as someone's looking at me, they're talking to me. If they are looking down, like I'm looking down now, you might think I'm talking to anybody, right? Or talking to somebody over here. So, you know, we try to pass it off like, it can't be, they know that I'm looking at, no, they don't. They don't stop and think,

I know she's looking at me and she's talking to me. No, our brains don't work that way. So having that visual connection. And also, when we ask questions, there's a very specific way to ask questions virtually that will ensure you get an answer. And here is a tip that will improve your getting an answer dramatically. And that is, also using the camera, is

When you ask a question, hold your gaze in the camera. Because if I say, so Rick, what's your biggest challenge? No, say I don't say Rick. I say to the group, what's your biggest challenge today? And I hold my gaze there. Everyone's going to start to feel a little like, OK, she's talking to me. Whereas if I say it, then I look away. They're like, good, the pressure's off. I don't have to answer. And we want them to feel that little

Future Of Selling (22:44.717)
Okay.

Future Of Selling (23:00.279)
Ha

Future Of Selling (23:06.465)
Right.

Julie (23:09.327)
pressure of like, oh, you know, I, right. It's like the process that happens in someone's brain when you ask a question virtually is, um, first of all, when you ask a question, it's like, you're not expecting a question. So it's like, Oh, what, do I have an answer? Okay. And then we go through this. Well, let me sort it out. And then we think, well, do I want to share it in front of this group? Maybe my manager's on the call. It's going to make me look like I don't have my act together or

Future Of Selling (23:10.967)
A little bit of stress, right? Yeah.

Julie (23:38.285)
I bet Rick's going to answer. He loves this topic. And then finally, go, God, nothing's happening. I better fill this. What happens is we always jump in and fill that silence. And so people don't have a time to go through that process. And we train them that they don't have to answer. So not rushing in to fill those gaps. We have to pause much longer than feels comfortable. And that takes practice, because again, it's un-

comfortable.

Future Of Selling (24:08.812)
Right, right. Yeah. I do some I do I run a mastermind group each week. And that's something I have to work on as I ask questions as we're going through the content. Right. Is just is just letting those pauses be pauses and wait for people to respond. You're absolutely right. The tendency is I want to fill that gap because I want to make everybody feel comfortable. But what you're saying is that, hey, let let

Julie (24:26.703)
Okay.

Future Of Selling (24:38.162)
Let it linger just a bit. Let there be a little bit of uncomfortable moments because that's going to draw people in and draw people in and engage in the conversation.

Julie (24:49.442)
Right. And I understand that that is easy to throw out there. It is one of the hardest things to do. And when I work with teams and we get on, you know, we get on these virtual coaching sessions, I make them practice that I make them practice because they will think, yeah, I paused for, you know, I missed pause for 10 seconds. Like, no, that was one second. That was a one second pause. We have no like, you know, we have no awareness. It's like, are you kidding me? So, you know, forcing them to do that, to stretch those muscles.

Future Of Selling (25:19.502)
Yeah.

Julie (25:19.826)
Because really getting better virtually is about, you know, developing new muscle memory because we're not used to not looking someone directly in the eye, which would be looking at the screen, right? That is not comfortable. We're not used to kind of working within this, you know, space that we have and trying to be very clear and present and not overwhelm people and use camera friendly body language and, you know, all these things that that translate on screen.

Future Of Selling (25:49.529)
Yeah, gotcha. What do you think about, you know, if I'm working to improve, right, I'm working to improve my online presence. And by the way, quick question before I go there, I'll come back to it. Is there a difference between, in your opinion, are there different tactics or skills in increasing my executive presence versus my sales presence online? Or is

Julie (26:12.346)
That's a great question. So executive presence is just a little more focused on sort of those core qualities of credibility, confidence, engagement, leadership, presence. So it's an elevated, it is very relevant for salespeople because if you think about it, you're meeting with executives a lot of times. So you want to be seen on the same level. You want to earn that

respect and trust. And so you want to, you know, kind of meet them where they're where they are, not to say that those executives are going to show up with virtual executive presence, because, you know, if you've watched my series, rate my video, where I look at a lot of CEOs and leaders and talk about their virtual executive presence, what they're doing on screen, most of them aren't are making a lot of mistakes. But they're the executives, so they get to do what they want. I don't recommend it, but

It's not do as I, you know, do as I do, it's do as I say.

Future Of Selling (27:16.77)
Right, gotcha, okay. So the answer then would be, they're similar, but there are some differences, but as a salesperson, I should be able to, you know, I'm going to be interacting with executives anyway, right? So I need to be able to learn that and have that particular presence, okay? So if I'm trying to improve and I'm trying to work on improving my presence, how do I balance that with my...

Julie (27:32.098)
Right, right.

Future Of Selling (27:44.367)
with authenticity. know you've got you've done some some kind of, you know, written some blogs and things about that. I think about that a lot. had had someone on the podcast a few weeks ago said, hey, authenticity, man, that's the highest vibrating energy in the universe. You know, I don't know if it is, but but sounded good to me. I didn't question it. But I think that's really core. But but but you think as I'm trying to add these tools to my tool belt, whatever, you know, if you like that metaphor.

Julie (28:04.1)
Sounds good.

Future Of Selling (28:13.943)
Am I leaving my authenticity behind? How do I balance that?

Julie (28:17.818)
Sorry, Rick, you just broke up there and I couldn't hear that last part.

Future Of Selling (28:21.091)
gosh, okay, sorry about that. Yeah, so the question was basically as I'm trying to improve and get better, right? How do I keep from leaving my authenticity behind? mean, I'm putting these new tools in my tool belt, but I don't want to change who I am at my core, you know? So how do I maintain the authenticity?

Julie (28:41.328)
And authenticity is always at the core. mean, even as an actor, you're not, you you are using yourself. You are just putting yourself in different circumstances, right? And adapting to the circumstances. And that's what we're doing. We're adapting to circumstances. Does everyone want to see my authentic self? My authentic, you know, I'm gonna be my natural, you know, unfortunately many people

associate authenticity with comfort. Like I said, that doesn't, that's not the same thing, right? Nobody wants to see the you, you know, at home, you know, channel surfing, that's not the authentic level we want. What is your authentic best self? And what is your authentic best self within, you know, this environment, right? And it's and it's different. And so what the goal is, and the techniques that I teach is to

Future Of Selling (29:14.532)
Yeah.

Julie (29:40.707)
again, develop these new muscle memories so that they become part of your vocabulary, right? It's not like every time you get on camera, you're just thinking, I gotta look at the camera. gotta do this. I gotta do that. It's just part of you. Because if you think about it, a lot of things that we do, we have learned. They weren't authentic in the beginning. We had to learn to walk. We had to learn to feed ourselves.

This idea of like, it's not authentic to actually try to be better on camera is, I think, based on the desire not to have to change.

Future Of Selling (30:21.165)
Yeah, gotcha, gotcha. OK, yeah, I think that that makes sense. I mean, I think a lot about that, right? I always feel like I'm at my best when I'm when I'm authentically me, right? And that's why when I do videos and things like that, that's what I try to do. But at the same time, there is a I do want to I do want to do my very best here also. So I kind of got to keep those in like in the same the same arena. Right. But but.

Julie (30:33.626)
Mm-hmm.

Julie (30:47.33)
Yeah, it's, yeah, you're right. And a lot of it is like, what is your, you know, your best energy, right? And, and it can seem, well, I don't feel that right now. It's like, okay, how do you get in that space? How do you find that, you know, reconnect to that, even though it's not naturally coming to you? Like that's what acting taught me is you're, you're able to pull these things that are inherently part of you call on them when you need them.

Future Of Selling (31:15.373)
Yeah.

Julie (31:15.894)
And that's the challenge. the show's going on whether you feel like it or not, right? And same with the presentation. So how do we get in that space? it's lot of kind of laying the groundwork to be able to then once you're on camera, the goal is to just be fully present for your audience. Like not to be thinking about all these things that you should be doing or this would be better. That's the work. That's the work that you do beforehand so that you can be free to be yourself on camera.

Future Of Selling (31:22.51)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (31:46.234)
Do you think it is it a good idea? Like, as you kind of talk that through, I'm thinking, man, you know, would it be a good idea when you get into, whether it's a conversation or a presentation or whatever? Like, here are the three things who describe the person that I want to be on this call. Like when I think about a podcast, I think, OK, I want to bring I want to bring great energy. I want to bring I want to make sure that I've been that I'm well prepared. And I I want to I want to be

I want to be interested, right? I want to make sure that I'm really interested in what's, which I guess is kind of being present to some degree. Is that good prep, you know, for someone to prep themselves that way and say, Hey, here are the three things I'm bringing to this meeting. Have it in front of them and see, you kind of like their, like their, commitment.

Julie (32:35.716)
You know, I love that. I'm going to put a little spin on it, though, that I think makes it even more powerful. Because what you're talking about is your intentions, right? My intention is to be at the best. And my intention is to bring good energy. And that is all very much focused on us, right? It doesn't really give me an action, right? It's thinking. It's like, OK.

Future Of Selling (32:45.827)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Julie (33:03.728)
What I learned as an actor was if being intentional is very much a part of acting and communication and thinking about instead, how do I want my audience to feel? If you're saying I want to bring a good energy, what's the flip side? If I say, I want to make my audience feel like we're sitting across from each other having a conversation. When I frame it that way, that

Future Of Selling (33:12.333)
Right.

Future Of Selling (33:27.62)
Yeah.

Julie (33:32.013)
my body knows what to do. Like I don't have to, I'm not thinking my way into it. It's like, I want to make this person feel, you know, like they're in the best possible hands. I want them to get excited about this. I want to share this excitement. So it's an action instead of just a, you know, kind of a thought process, which we can easily just kind of, it goes out the window once we, you know, get on the call. But same idea.

Future Of Selling (33:34.221)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (33:46.519)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Future Of Selling (33:58.511)
Got it. Okay. Yeah, I like that, though, because now I'm focused on the other person, not just me. And that's kind of what that that's what you're saying. Right.

Julie (34:08.856)
Right, it goes from being an internal thought to an external, visible, you know, action that they can feel, right? They can feel that, you know, because you were trying to convey something, you're trying to, it's a way that we can connect with people.

Future Of Selling (34:23.908)
Yeah, gotcha. Okay, no, that makes perfect sense. So as you're working through this with people, do you have, know you've got the online, you know, the kind of rate me videos that you do, and I've watched a couple of those now. Is there an assessment or a tool or a grading system scale that an individual could use to get feedback? Or do they need to, you know, do, you know, that they can kind of do on their own? Or what's the best way for, you know, me to do that?

Julie (34:52.72)
Right, right. Well, I do have a standalone virtual executive presence assessment that I do if people can send me a video. And I have a very intricate standardized system of looking at 50, 60 behavioral aspects and giving you a score, not just a score, but also here's why. Here's why your credibility was only

you know, 40%, this, that, and the other. And here's what you can do to improve that. So it's kind of a, you know, do it on your own. When I engage with a team, we do it, you know, in addition, we do it at the beginning of the training so they can see kind of that baseline of where they're at, which is always eye-opening.

And then we work together on all the techniques with coaching and some videos. And then they do one at the end, and they get to see the difference. And what's fascinating is I've done, like I said, 1,500 salespeople. The average improvement overall is somewhere around 65%. So yes, and it doesn't matter if they're like, well, I'm just going to put my new people through this. It's like, you know, it's not.

Future Of Selling (36:09.178)
Really? Wow.

Julie (36:16.834)
It's not really dependent on whether they're new, whether they're experienced. It's just how they've adapted or not adapted and the habits that they've developed that need to be adjusted, as it were.

Future Of Selling (36:30.672)
Yeah, 65%. I mean, that's pretty fantastic. That's incredible.

Julie (36:35.248)
It is. And that just shows you the opportunity for growth in this whole area. I get on with teams that if you knew the name of the business, you would think, I bet their people are all top notch at this. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. They're digital transformation leaders. It does not matter.

Future Of Selling (36:50.992)
Ha

Julie (36:59.3)
have a blind spot when it comes to it's like, well, we checked the box on that. took a class, we put them through a class like five years ago and they got good equipment. Yeah, they're all good. We're onto other things and I get it, but that's not reality.

Future Of Selling (37:05.838)
You're good. Let him go. Let him

Future Of Selling (37:13.53)
Yeah, no, I love the idea of, I mean, it's just continuous improvement, continuous growth, right? And that's really what you're to promote. So whether I'm new, whether I've been doing it for 10 years, almost more so if I've been doing it for 10 years, I'm thinking, right? Because that means I'm really setting my ways and my habits and yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Julie (37:20.11)
Right.

Julie (37:31.064)
Yeah, you start to develop a lot of habits and not always good ones. So yes, we get less aware.

Future Of Selling (37:40.4)
How do you think AI is impacting online presence? Is it impacting? I'm sure that it is, right? But if so, how is it impacting us?

Julie (37:52.677)
Well, I think that it is something that people are very wary about and have sort of their alert on. So we don't. And I guess the situation is that some of these avatars are certainly getting better. I think it's very difficult to replace a lot of the nuances that we share as humans and that we can read in other people.

Future Of Selling (38:21.233)
Yeah.

Julie (38:21.496)
And if there's anything slightly off, it's like, you you don't want to plant a seed of doubt in people's minds that you might be AI. And some people, you know, if you can't be better than AI, you know, what are you even doing, right? If that's the bar. So we have to really maximize our human interaction. And part of that is

Future Of Selling (38:37.361)
But yeah.

Julie (38:47.298)
Again, showing up as a full human, which means you're going to make mistakes. And that's fine. It's not about being perfect. But being as impactful and able to connect in this environment as much as possible is what's going to set you apart from all the AI tools and messages that we get that are so standardized.

Future Of Selling (39:10.073)
Yeah. Yeah, I find, mean, I think AI is very helpful. I use it right. And it is very helpful. I find, that, you know, because sometimes I'll put in a topic and I'll say, hey, give me, give me a draft that I can start playing with. And sometimes, though, I don't. It just means less to me. Right. It means more to me when I when I write something myself and it's more thoroughly me.

Julie (39:16.975)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (39:39.293)
at least that, that's, that's what I found. So I've kind of leaned in, I'm kind of, I'm not leaning out, but, certainly there's a, there's a, I like doing some of the stuff on my own and not just depending on the AI tools that are out there now. they, just, you know, feels a little, a little bit less authentic to lean into that too much.

Julie (39:57.807)
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And I think that there is going to be a little bit of a backlash. And there already is, like on some of these sales messages that we get. It's like, god, they all sound the same. But putting the effort in, and it is more effort than hitting a button on AI to connect with people. But I think the value of that, because of that, is going to increase.

Future Of Selling (40:18.726)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (40:26.385)
Yeah, yeah, I know. I agree. A couple of the questions. I know we're getting closer to the kind of the end of our time, but it just had a ton of stuff written down. I wanted to cover, you know, one of the books you wrote was act like a sales pro. So what is how do you act like a sales pro? You know, what is that? What does that mean? What is good? What does good look like if I'm being a sales?

Julie (40:45.36)
Well, what is good? Right, right. Well, that was my first book and it was based on everything I learned as an actor that helped me be a better salesperson. Because I said, when I first started out, you know, I started out as a buyer where people call you back and you're, know, everybody's nice to you. And then you go into sales. It's, it's a whole different experience.

Future Of Selling (41:03.152)
Okay.

Julie (41:14.736)
And when I started acting, developed some more confidence around my ability to communicate and kind of be in discomfort and also how to connect with people better and to be very intentional about it, like we were talking about, that intention of exchanging energy or making an impact.

and taking chances, right? So the book is really a culmination of what I learned that made me a bit of salesperson. I wasn't thinking at the time, I'm going to use this to write a book. It's like I just naturally sort of incorporated these skills and I got better and I became top salesperson and I became a sales director and I started training people and using some of these same skills with them. So it covers everything from, you know, like

you know, rejection and also certainly that, you know, when you get in front of a customer, and I think this is, I don't know if you've ever read the experience economy, but it's written by some Harvard professors. And they said, anytime you're in front of a customer, an act of performance takes place. You know, there is an act of performance that you're not just showing up, just schlepping in there, right? You're, again, how do we get to our best self?

Future Of Selling (42:38.044)
Yeah.

Julie (42:38.28)
in these different environments? How do we connect with different types of people? So how do we get that energy when we don't feel like it? So was very much just taking my experience and putting that in the book. And so the third book, Me in the Eye, is really that, you know, how do we transcend from the in-person environment using a lot of very specific skills as well, many acting based to connect with people, you know, through the camera.

Future Of Selling (42:46.033)
Right.

Future Of Selling (43:07.654)
Yeah. Well, and I was thinking as I was kind of looking at your books that you wrote and the sequence that you wrote them in, my gut was is that your latest book probably pulls from act like a sales pro and probably pulls from sales presentations for dummies and kind of, you know, and to some degree upgrades that based on the new environment we're in and things that you've learned along the way. That's kind of the way to think about that. OK, gotcha. Gotcha.

Julie (43:30.991)
Yeah.

Definitely, definitely. Because there are, you know, there's nuances to virtual presentations that we didn't have in person, right? There's a lot more distractions, as it were, and a lot less engagement, which we talked about.

Future Of Selling (43:48.807)
Yeah. Yeah, good. I got to get the book. won it was the number one bestseller. Sounds like it hit the best selling sellers list, but also just a ton of information there. And if I'm a sales leader, let's say that I'm a sales leader and kind of building a team, where do I focus first from your perspective? it is it am I I focusing on kind of, you know, the helping with presence? Am I am I helping focus with

presentations? Is it something else? mean, what's kind of the sequence of events if I were a sales leader trying to work on this?

Julie (44:27.792)
Well, would, again, most sales leaders aren't experts in this area, right? Very few people are. So I would get an assessment. I usually, when teams are, leaders are like, don't know if we need this. I don't know. It's like, well, let's look at a couple of your salespeople, somebody who's new, somebody who's mid-range, and somebody who's very experienced.

Future Of Selling (44:33.328)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (44:54.364)
Yeah.

Julie (44:54.424)
And let's see, and I can tell you, it a presentation problem? Is it a virtual executive presence challenge? What do we need to, what needs to take place? Are you falsely thinking your people are much better on camera than they are? And that is something I think leaders are very, have a blind spot to is they think, they see their salespeople show up in teams meetings.

And of course they're not, you know, they're, you know, kind of looking down there. They're not at their best. And they think, I know they're doing much better with clients. I'm sure they are. Okay. Maybe for us. And who has time to review all those, right? They're not, you know, I mean, everybody's so busy that, you know, they're not, and they don't know what to look for. So it's, it's asking a lot of a sales leader to even, you know, decipher, you know, what the, what they need at that point.

Future Of Selling (45:31.762)
They're probably not, right?

Future Of Selling (45:43.74)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (45:50.803)
Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. Got it. So if I'm a sales leader, then probably my number one thing is, hey, reach out to you clearly or find a way to assess where the team is at and get some intel there. So one last question for you. I always like to end kind of the podcast with some key takeaways, right? For anybody that's listening, covered a lot of ground, talked a lot about the three books, a lot of ground.

presence. If I'm a seller, let's say I'm a seller, I've been doing this for a year or two years. If there were three key takeaways you would give me, what would they be? What should I be thinking about in order to increase my own presence, my own success as a seller? What would those three key takeaways be based on what we've covered today, do you think?

Julie (46:21.968)
Mm-hmm.

Julie (46:45.968)
Yeah, I mean I would say first of all I would take a screenshot of your Self on you know in your typical setup and send it to somebody you trust and say does this Do I look credible and is my you know is my back is anything distracting? Does it look like you could be sitting across from me? Am I looking at am I does it look like I'm looking at you?

Future Of Selling (47:07.814)
Right.

Julie (47:10.766)
A lot of people still haven't really nailed where that camera lens is. They're looking at the light or they're, you know, the screen. So getting a outside perspective and then. You know, there's a whole technique behind this, but learning to look at the camera when it doesn't feel natural, right? People are like, yeah, I look at the camera. Well, they look at it when it, when it's convenient for them and not when it matters to your audience.

Future Of Selling (47:31.868)
Right.

Julie (47:40.706)
So in the book, I talk about a lot of times where it's not you have to stare at the camera the entire time, but there are times that are more important than others. And there are times where you can not look at the camera. then third, would say that interaction piece that we talked about, trying not to get taken away by that discomfort of not getting the response immediately.

Future Of Selling (47:51.334)
Yeah. Gotcha.

Future Of Selling (48:09.459)
Yeah.

Julie (48:09.633)
and not rushing through your content or in rushing through those pauses.

Future Of Selling (48:15.843)
Yeah, yeah, gotcha. So three things. I love the first one for sure. Take a screenshot of yourself and maybe even a short, maybe you can do a short video and you send it to someone that you trust and say, hey, what do you think? Do I look engaging? Would you want to sit across from me? Second one, of learn to look at the camera. And I'm working on that right now as we're talking.

Julie (48:29.667)
Mm-hmm.

Julie (48:39.081)
See?

Future Of Selling (48:40.019)
because I heard you talk about it yesterday on a video. So I'm doing my best. We'll see. I hopefully I'm doing okay. And then also don't be, and that's a really key one. Don't be overwhelmed. Don't be overcome. Maybe that's a better way to say it. By the feedback you're getting from the audience, right? Do the things you know to do because the feedback is different than in person. And so even though you may not be feeling like there's engagement as you'd like them to be,

Julie (48:43.311)
Yeah

Future Of Selling (49:10.161)
Don't, you know, still use the pause, right? Use the different tools in your tool belt that you know are going to work and, you know, don't leave those behind because it's like, I don't think there's engaged as they should be. So those are great. Great.

Julie (49:22.721)
Right, absolutely. I'll just add kind of as that, let me just do that again. I'll just add sort of as an aside to that is I learned as an actor, always assume the audience likes you. Like, you know, because that affects everything you do. And it's, it is very easy to go down a very dark, dark hole in virtual presentations if you're not getting that visual feedback.

Future Of Selling (49:38.801)
Yeah.

Future Of Selling (49:49.139)
That is such a good point because it colors everything that you're doing, you know, and the way you're coming across. yeah.

Julie (49:56.449)
Mm-hmm. It does, and it doesn't matter if you're wrong or right. You're gonna be better.

Future Of Selling (50:01.701)
Yeah, that's true. So assume positive intent from the person that you're that you're that you're speaking with. So yeah, that's great. Well, cool. Well, I know we're at time. Thank you so much for being with us today and just kind of, you know, going through the questions with me and great conversation. So I'm sure I connected with you on LinkedIn recently. So if other people want to find you, you were pretty you were really easy to find on LinkedIn. And, you know, and we'll and we'll we'll have your the the

Julie (50:07.673)
Yep, a big difference maker.

Julie (50:20.238)
You

Julie (50:27.011)
Good.

Future Of Selling (50:31.547)
links to your books and things like that in the show recording in case somebody wants to look at that. anyway, Julie, thank you so much for the time. Great conversation. Hope to talk to you again soon.

Julie (50:35.704)
Okay, great.

Julie (50:42.347)
My pleasure. Thanks so much, Rick.

Future Of Selling (50:44.531)
All right, bye bye.