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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
The Anatomy of Launching Kids
Chris Bruno
Hey guys, welcome back to the restorative man podcast. This is Chris Bruno. I'm one of the co-hosts here and I am joined by my good friend. Jesse. Yes. Hey Jesse. Good to see you too. Jesse in less than two months, I will be on a safari. You will. Yes. So I will be on a safari and
Jesse French
French. Good to see you.
Chris Bruno
This is the crazy thing is that the timing of this is right during the wildebeest migration.
Jesse French
It is not. I didn't know this part of it.
Chris Bruno
Yes. What? So, and I don't know if, do you know about the world of beast migration?
Jesse French
All I know is that there's many wildebeest. They like swim this big river, right? That's all.
Chris Bruno
Yeah, yeah. I know. Pond your up all the things from Lion King, right? And that is what happens. There are wildebeests and millions of them are trekking from one side of what's the Mossai Mara area, which is where we're going to be across to the other. They're making their migration and they have to cross the river and the river is full of crocodiles because the crocodiles know the wildebeests are coming and so they're waiting.
And so the Willoughbys come and they're, just like stampede across the savanna and then get into the river valley and then cross the river and go back up and not all of them make it through. So it is fun.
Jesse French
And I'm like shaking my head at you because I'm envious of you being willing to witness this. And it's it's not it's like actually technically work for you. It's not even like a vacation.
Chris Bruno
Somehow I pulled the right straw from the staff at Restoration Project to be able to staff this and guide this experience. This is the, what we're talking about is the Trek Kenya experience, which is the oldest child experience that we run. And so this is a fathering expedition where dads bring their older teen kids on this expedition. And it is 10 days in Kenya.
And we've done, you know, 10 days in Costa Rica. And now this is the second time we're going to Kenya and I'm super excited. And one of the most beautiful things is I get to do it with us. She's co-guiding with me. And so the two of us get to lead this trip and we will be in the Range Rovers there in the Masai Mara.
Jesse French
So jealous. Chris, part of reason we wanted to talk about this was, as you said, like, this is the trip for the oldest age of kids that we run. so they're for this trip, it's 16 to 19. Is this right? So 16 to 19. So obviously a pretty unique time period in the life of all those sons and daughters that are going. And we wanted to kind of use that because like they're on the cusp of launching, right? Like already either they're, they finished high school or about ready to.
And that feels like such an important transition and process. And yet I would say like all my kids are younger and I can say like, man, that feels super important. I can think about my own life. That was significant. And yet it feels like today there are not a lot of like helpful ways of navigating that of like, we know this is important. How do we mark that? Well, and so we want to talk about that today here on the.
Chris Bruno
Well, it is. You said the word guardrails. Holy cow. I wish there were more guardrails and more like user manuals for children. Unfortunately, they don't exist. Yeah, well, so personally, we've got three kids and we've launched three kids. And so it feels it has been a journey and we've walked through all the different levels and stages with them, which now dads can do with Restoration Project and the younger kids, you know, when they're younger and then the teen years and, then this is the older teen years and we still do something here. And eventually you guys, we might do something with dads with adult sons. That's to come, but they're adults then. So this is still when they're in our home and we're, we're still in the formation shaping of their person. When they're in our home and we're about to launch them out of our home where we're shifting our parenting from parent to child to adult to adult. And that is a big shift. So all the things that you as a younger dad are working on now with your son, with your daughters, like all of that is not, I don't want to say the word culmination into this final season stage, but it is building the capacity for you to still have a voice in their lives at this older stage. So the work that you're doing with your son when he's eight and with your daughter when she's 10 or 12 or even, you know, 15 is laying the foundation for you as they are preparing to leave your home, that there is still enough gravitas to your voice as their father, to where you have a space to talk, where you have a space to listen to where you have a space to honor and be honored as they're preparing to leave. So this is a great, great experience. I love it. And there's kind of a trifold purpose of what we do with Trek. The first is that the first is to help you as a father, make the transition from fathering in a father over child mentality to a father next to child mentality. as they leave your home. That's part of the launching, right? This is where now we're shifting from your child's son or daughter relating to you as the dad who's got the authority to now next to you as a co-equal with you as an adult. And that is they may still need your help. They may still need your care in ways. mean, it might...
My 25 year old son was laying on my lap last week when we were at a graduation, right? So there's still some tending and caring that is happening there. This morning while I'm shaving, my adult 22 year old daughter called me about how to do something with a bill. So there's things that are happening there, but it's very, very different relationship that you have as adults than you did when the kids were in your home. And so we're trying to help you and the child.
for that relationship and kind of clear the air of what has been so that you can now enter into that shift.
Jesse French
So real quick, probably a lot that you could say about that, but what do you think the barriers, significant barrier that most dads will face in making that shift that makes that difficult or they choose not to?
Chris Bruno
My answer to that, I'm always so like, grim, it feels like on these things. I'm actually a very happy person, everyone. And yet, to answer your question, I think one of the biggest barriers are two things, your disappointment and your disgust. So your disappointment in your child will like,
Jesse French
And yeah
Chris Bruno
they're not doing the things you want them to do. They're not living the way you want them to live. They're not making the choices. They're not, or they are making choices that you don't agree with or like all that stuff. And you start to feel like your disappointment in them exposes your failure as a father. And so like the fact that they're not going the way that you wanted them to go is both disappointing and it also like exposes your own shame for how you feel like a failure of what you should have done or didn't do.
Like it just gets exposed in that moment. So disappointment and then disgust is like because of that disappointment. Now it's like, ⁓ I can't stand hearing from you. We can't have a conversation. The way that you talk, the way that you live, the way that you manage your finances, the people that you love or don't love, the politics that you have or don't have, like all of that kind of stuff. I'm disgusted with you. And so it creates distance.
Jesse French
In distance and probably also right, it fuels the, I'm in a position above you and authority, kind of holding out hope of maybe they can make the right choices and align into my perfect mold of where I wanted them to be. Yeah. If I observed my authority in the right way.
Chris Bruno
If I exchange my hammer for a sledgehammer, right? if I, well, I mean, just like if I haven't hammered it in by the time they're 16, 17, 18, more hammering is not going to help. It's not going to help. Or if I'm going to tighten it up and get more controlling as 16, 17, 18, it's not actually going to help. Now it is like, and I don't want to be grim about that, but now we have to shift into, so what would you like to do?
Jesse French
You're a real grand-
Chris Bruno
with the choices that you're making. And I will be with you alongside of you in those and I will not, I'm no longer responsible for those. So there, there is that aspect of things. exit Graham, exit Graham. Okay.
Jesse French
In we go. we are. Okay. So that's one shift that we're like trying to help the dads be aware of, have some sense of that navigation.
Chris Bruno
Well, and the other thing that part of what Trek is, and so if you're coming on Trek with us this year, be prepared, or if you're coming in the future, be prepared. We actually ask you to step into ⁓ a posture of humility to hear from your child how it has been for them to be your child.
Jesse French
gosh.
Chris Bruno
And for you to sit there with open ears and listening ears and own what you need to own and recognize the impact that you have had for good or for ill. And so many times it is a beautiful conversation that ends up happening with the child. As long as the child can be honest, like this is how it was in all the wonder and beauty and goodness. And this is how it has felt in the moments that weren't so beautiful. And that's actually an adult conversation. ⁓ God.
Jesse French
Thank
Chris Bruno
It's such an adult conversation, but dad has to have the posture of tell me about my impact on you and I will own what I need to own and I will sit with you in your pain that has been caused by something I did or didn't do. And now we can move into something different. Now we can have all the other conversations that they will need to have in the coming years about life because you now have proven yourself as a safe man. So prepare yourself.
Jesse French
Aw man.
Seriously, like preparation needed, right?
Chris Bruno
it preparation needed and what would that have been like for me to have with my dad? Sure, sure. I would still love to have that with my dad.
Jesse French
such a ⁓ risky and terrifying and beautiful thing, right? To say like, there is enough relational capital, there is enough trust that honesty can exist.
Chris Bruno
Honesty can exist. Yeah. So, and I love that because the child in telling you that is actually honoring you. They are!
Jesse French
They are like, you don't have that conversation with someone you don't care about.
Chris Bruno
Exactly. Exactly. Yes. And then the third part, Jesse, is that we want to expose our young men and women to a great, big, giant, God-loved world where he is doing things in places and in people and in ways that we can't even imagine when we are sitting in our neighborhood swimming pool.
or we are at the gym or we are in our, you know, pristine office, whatever it is, we cannot even imagine how God does it work in the world. And so our hope is to both open the eyes and break the hearts of the kids that that their goodness and their glory of who the masterpiece of God, like who that is inside of them. When it is brought to bear into the world, how much more, how much more vision, how much more hope, how much more glory can they then
participate in that goes beyond the suburb.
Jesse French
Yes. Gosh, I like how you phrased that because those of you that have come on some of our fathering expeditions are familiar with a little bit of how we approach that, right? Like there is just this bedrock belief in the glory, the image bearingness of all humans, right? Of our kids and trying to help dads have this sense and this perspective of calling that out, right? Of having eyes for that. And then our expeditions with our kiddos that are a little younger, right? Like wonderful, wonderful weekends and weeks where that gets expressed in just
fantastic ways. But now with Trek, right? To be able to add this piece of like need to have this element of like, this is the reality of the beautiful world that we live in and the like suffering that is present also. Like to have that now, to have that container be one where, or the glory of the dad, son or daughter can be unearthed. It just feels like such a rare, but wonderful and needed thing.
Chris Bruno
And churches know this, right? Youth groups know this, that when you go on a mission trip, it's more about you than it is about what you're going to serve. And if they do it right, I should say. So in what beauty can there be when you as a father get to participate in that with your child and invite them into it and have your own heart broken in the process? And I don't mean broken, like compassion for the poor people out there, but broken for like,
wow, they have more joy than I have. Broken for how I'm living, broken for like, where is God at work? And that's one of the things why we go to Kenya is because we have some partners there who work in one of the slums of Nairobi. And there's 500,000 people who live in shanties in this slum. And I want to expose people to that kind of life and that kind of world and that there are people who are living in those kinds of conditions.
And also the curiosity that I'm inviting people into is not what is wrong, but what is right. Yes. Where is God at work here? Not how do I bring my goodness to change it here? It's like, where is God at work and what am I observing of the glory of God and the people that he has put here? So like in honor and praise to God. So that's part of the whole deal.
Jesse French
Yeah, it feels like some of what is being pursued right is like, can we have a greater lens of the dignity present in God's creation?
Chris Bruno
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So I'll say, I'll come back to the Safari thing. And one of the, again, if you're coming with us, fantastic. There's 10 dads and kids that are coming, pairs that are coming on the Safari. As we get into those Range Rovers and go throughout the Savannah and looking for all the animals and see all the funny things that you see when you see animals with, you know,
Jesse French
Like what? Chris? What do mean?
Chris Bruno
Well, elephants have large appendages and I'm not talking about their trunk. Okay. I'm not talking about their trunk and we, we've saw lions mating and we saw, yeah, we saw, you know, cheetahs killing animals. Like there's things happening that are just raw, raw in the world. When we get into those trucks, however, the thing that I say to the dads is we're going to go and we're going to see some of the most
amazing and beautiful creatures in all of the universe, in all of God's creation. And they are not outside your truck.
Jesse French
Hmm.
Chris Bruno
The most beautiful creatures that we have are the children that we have brought with us. And so as you are marveling at the scenes that are outside the truck and as you're snapping pictures and you got your binoculars and all that kind of stuff, can you also take time to pause and look at the wonder that is standing next to you? And what does that do for you to know that God hasn't trusted you with that kind of wonder? So the whole part of it, yes, we're gonna see wildebeest and all that kind of stag crocodiles.
And I love watching the face of a man melt when he catches the delight of his daughter's face or his son's face. So that's so good.
Jesse French
Man, I wish you wouldn't have said that because it's easier for me to have my like jealous of Chris Bruno narrative of like, he's watching Willard B some crocodiles and it's like the drama of that. I'm so jealous. Then you just give that freaking mic drop like, beautiful invitation like, okay, this is yes.
Chris Bruno
And you'll get to do that in your own minivan when the Cheerios are spilling on the floor and so-and-so is poking, you know, your son is poking your daughter. A little bit harder probably. Yeah. Yeah. So there you go. Yeah. I track is just one of those things. And I want to say this too, Jesse, that this conversation is less about what we're doing a track and all the cool things and all that. And really more about
Jesse French
I have no idea how timely this is.
Chris Bruno
We as men, we as fathers can do all of this discipline and correction and guidance and spiritual formation and all of these things in our homes. And we miss, we miss the diving board where creating the diving board for our child to walk out to the edge and kind of front flip off into their own pool and say like, well done and goodbye.
I'm still here for you and you know what to do. And if we can't make that transition for them, help them make that transition. Then a lot of times, you know, they don't know where to go. They don't know what to do. They don't know how to be. And they just don't launch. They just don't launch or they don't launch well. So I'm making no judgments about kids who come back home for seasons and all that kind of stuff. That's not what this is about. I'm talking about internal launch far more than external launch.
Jesse French
Hmm. Chris, do you think some of that process you talked earlier about, like, one of the barriers being this disappointment of like, hey, I had this hope that my kid would be here and they're not, like, that reality makes a ton of sense. Is also some of the process of releasing your kids, of launching them. I imagine some of that is like, however imperfect, and it is imperfect, but like,
The dad actually pausing and looking back at his own fathering for the last 16, 17, 18 years, having this sense of like, good job. Like you didn't, it was flawless. And like, well done. Just sort of this, this acknowledgement, this honor of that. feels, would imagine that feels really needed and probably difficult too.
Chris Bruno
absolutely. And that I think is part of, mean, every, every man's journey has to have like a reflection on what has been in order to go into what's next. And so it feels like when we do look back and go, how did I father, where did I show up? Where did I mess up? And that's why we have that like conversation with the child. Like this is what it was like to be your child. This was the impact of your goodness. And this was the impact of your not so goodness ends and to hold that and go like, and like,
this gives me an opportunity to welcome the grace of Jesus into my life in a way that I wouldn't have without that kind of reflection or conversation. And to say, you know, well done. I have done what I could do and it's not a like, and I'm released and I'm done. like wipe my hands clean of you child. Here I go. Like it's a level of sobriety that also is an invitation to delight that when I can say they're launched, now I can go like, wow, look at them.
Even if I don't agree with their choices.
Jesse French
Right. Hmm. that's good. Because I would imagine too, without that sort of releasing and that honoring given to ourselves, it feels like without that there, could just so easily just stay in the rut of like regret, of judgment, right? And again, it's based out of like this honest assessment of it, right? Of like what actually has happened. And then like you were saying, makes room for what is coming next.
Chris Bruno
Right. Right. And you know, there's things like graduations and stuff that set the stage for those ceremonial transitions of you were a student and now you have a diploma or, know, whatever. There are those ceremonies, but they're not enough. They're not enough. They speak to achievements. They don't speak to the character. And I think our job as helping make these transitions into adulthood is to speak to the character and speak to the glory.
not to the performance or the achievements or, you know, just because you're I will be thinking of you in.
Jesse French
So good.
Please do. I hope my face just, you know, comes across your brain as you're watching Wilburby's swim across from Jaws of Crocodiles and near-eminent death and...
Chris Bruno
Well, there you go. And we're not going to get into this now, but Jesse, you and I have been on a safari together in Kenya. And there was a time in said safari when you were making up songs and poetry from the back of the, ⁓ from the back of the So any, I invite any of our, any of our listeners, if you would like to reach out and hear more contact Jesse at restoration project.
Jesse French
To get his.
Chris Bruno
To get his low down on the glory of his songwriting debut in the back of a safari truck.
Jesse French
Debut and also culmination. Farewell tour. Debut and farewell tour. All in one. ⁓
Chris Bruno
Woo! Okay, bye!