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Join in as Nikki Closser, a mentor in the Sue Bryce Education community, interviews photographers who manage successful portrait photography businesses from around the globe using the business model Sue Bryce teaches. Subscribe to hear stories that will fast track your success and transform you as a photographer and business owner.
Most photographers think the hardest part
about this business is mastering lighting,
posing, and marketing. But for some
people, that is not the hardest part. I'm
Nikki Closser, and today on the Portrait
System Podcast, Ajani Charles joins me,
and we talk about what truly can be the
hardest part. The mental and emotional
weight of creating a business and how to
carry it without crushing you. Ajani gives
us so much insight and coping strategies
for how to deal with all of it. He also
passion projects, just like he did with
one of his projects called T-Dot, changed
his entire business and relationship with
his work. All right, let's get started
with Ajani Charles. Hi, Ajani. Welcome to
The Portrait System. How are you? I'm
doing well, Nikki. Thanks for having me.
Yeah, I'm very happy to have you here. It
seems like you have had a really
interesting 20 years you've been a
photographer. I've been a photographer for
almost 30 years. Oh, almost 30. Yeah, but
professionally, it's been almost 20. Okay,
okay. It's been, from what I've read, an
amazing career. And you've taken your art
and turned it into some really important,
incredible projects that like help the
world, basically. So it's, it's gonna be
really, really cool to hear your story. I
think that the viewers are gonna really
love this. So glad to have you. Yeah, I'm
honored to be a guest on your podcast. And
I'm grateful for the opportunity to share
about my journey. Yeah. Okay, so maybe
take us back. You said professionally,
you've been a photographer for 20 years.
Is this something you went to school for?
Or did it just kind of like fall into your
lap to become a photographer? I went to a
specialized art school called the Claude
Watson School for the Arts in, in Toronto,
Canada. And through that school, as a kid,
beginning at the age of nine, we're
immersed in the arts, visual arts, dance,
theater, and so on and so forth. However,
early on in the Claude Watson program
before the high school level, photography,
photography is not offered. And I started
to fall, I started to fall in love with
photography, at the age of nine, because I
wanted to become a zoologist. And I has I
had a subscription to National Geographic.
And the photography National Geographic
blew my mind. So I started, I had my
father enroll me in the Toronto School of
Art, which was a private art school for
adults. So I started learning how to shoot
and develop film at the age of 12. Wow.
Alongside adults who are in their 20s and
30s. No kidding. And that's how I started
to truly fall in love with photography.
And I and I started learning photography
because I viewed it as a tool for what I
viewed as my future career as a zoologist.
I want to study animals. And I wanted to
and I want to shoot like the photographers
in National Geographic. It's so it's so
funny that you say National Geographic. I
think that was really my first exposure to
photographs that made me like my jaw drop.
Really incredible, just, you know,
breathtaking imagery. You know, and it's
like, these days, do kids even know what
National Geographic magazines look like?
You know, it's like, Oh, I want to bring
it back because the fact that it inspired
your life. It's just really cool. But
you're not a zoologist. No, but I'm, you
know, I'm grateful that my my love of
animals and National Geographic, I'm
grateful that it opened up the world of
photography to me. Right. And, and in a
roundabout way, I, I still ended up
becoming a professional photographer. It's
just that my subject matter doesn't focus
on nature or animals. And okay, so, I
mean, technically, you learned very young.
And I'm sure that was super helpful to
have that technical aspect of it. But it
seems like now what you do, I mean,
obviously, it's technical, but it's just
with all of your projects, there's so much
emotion and personality and like mood in
your photos. Is that something that you in
school? Or is that something you've just
sort of picked up on the way? Yeah, I
think with a lot of my projects,
especially the projects that I'm most well
known for, there's a very personal element
to them. And most of my subject matter
focuses on people. So for example, with
Project TDOT, that's my nearly 20 year old
documentary project on Toronto's hip hop
culture, community and history. Because of
my love of hip-hop culture, because of the
curiosity I developed about Toronto's hip
-hop scene, and because of my admiration
of so many people in Toronto's hip-hop
scene, I was able to cultivate a series of
relationships over many years. And that's
why a lot of the photographs and videos
that I've shot of Project T-Dot are very
intimate and personal. It's because I'm
shooting people that I personally know and
that I've spent sometimes thousands of
hours with. Right. When I was reading just
about you and about T-Dot, something that
you said was that the hip-hop culture and
community wasn't well documented back
then. And it's like you saw, one, it's
important and you're passionate about it,
but two, you saw a hole there that needed
to be filled. Yeah, that's a great
observation, Nikki. The reason I started
Project T-Dot was because I loved hip-hop
culture, but I realized that I knew more
about New York's hip-hop scene, Atlanta's
hip-hop scene, Los Angeles's hip-hop
scene. I knew more about them than
Toronto's hip-hop scene, so I had a
curiosity. And I realized that Toronto's
hip-hop scene wasn't as well documented as
I expected it to be. So beginning in
December 2006, I decided to document as
much of Toronto's hip-hop ecosystem as I
possibly could, editing the photographs in
black and white specifically. And that was
the basic premise of Project T-Dot. It's
evolved into something much more
complicated with a wider variety of
elements. And I've had major public art
exhibits for Project T-Dot, but in the
beginning, it simply started off with
documenting as much of Toronto's hip-hop
scene as I possibly could, all aspects of
it, and then editing the photographs in
black and white. And I pulled up your
website here. And if you're listening on
Spotify or something, if you do go to
YouTube, you'll be able to see the visuals
of this. But, I mean, I pull up Project T
-Dot, and there's Drake right there.
Pretty awesome. Yeah, that's his first
sold-out concert ever. Oh, no kidding.
Yeah, so that's definitely a pivotal
moment in his career. And, you know,
something I had never seen before. I had
never seen a Toronto crowd go that wild
for a Toronto artist before. Wow. Yeah, if
you go to a Johnny, it's just a Johnny.ca.
A-J-A-N-I-C-A. You'll be able to see, you
know, his projects and, obviously, his
entire website. But, yeah, this is really
cool. So, you know, you had said that you
started this 20 years ago, which is also
when you started your professional career.
So, I mean, is this what launched your
career, was doing this project? In a way,
the beginning of my career involved a lot
of exploration and experimentation. I
wasn't sure what type of photographer I
wanted to be. And I didn't have the
business acumen or the entrepreneurial
experience that I have today. But I still
have the good sense to realize that if I
created a project that other photographers
in Toronto and Canada did not have, that
project would help me to differentiate
myself from other photographers in Toronto
and across Canada. I also realized that
there are several talented people in
Toronto's hip-hop scene. And that by
shooting Project TDOT, I would be able to
meet some of them. And maybe some of them
would become collaborators. Maybe I'd do
business with some of them. So, I viewed
Project TDOT as a networking tool. I
viewed Project TDOT as a way to
differentiate myself from other
photographers. And I viewed Project TDOT
as a way for me to cultivate at least the
craft of photography. And over the years,
it's done all that and more. And it's also
been a tool of, you know, personal
development for me as well. I've learned a
lot about myself and the human condition
through Project TDOT. I mean, you were
young. Like, that's pretty insightful to
look at a passion project in the way that
you did. I mean, granted, it seems like
you're, I don't know, just from what
little I've spoken to you so far, you kind
of seem like an old soul. I mean, you were
going to school with adults when you were
12. But, like, that is, it's really
insightful to think about it in that way.
You know, if I do this project, it can
evolve into so much more emotionally,
psychologically, and, you know, hopefully
financially. And I feel like, I think one
of the reasons people can be hesitant
about doing a project like this is,
obviously, it takes a lot of time, a lot
of your energy, resources, all of it. And
it's like, whoa, that's taking time away
from bringing in income and a client, you
know, a stable client base and that sort
of thing. So, like, I don't know, can you
just kind of take us through how all of
this has worked? And I know, I'm sure a
lot has happened in 20 years, but I don't
know, can you just kind of give us a
roadmap of how that all worked? Yeah, for
sure. With Project T-Dot, it involved an
enormous amount of rejection and
disappointments. So, it took me 15 years
to monetize it. Wow. Up until 2021,
between 2006 and 2021, all the grants that
I applied for on behalf of Project T-Dot,
I was rejected from. Wow. All of the
corporate pitches in regards to Project T
-Dot did not amount to anything.
Eventually, through one of my colleagues,
Laura Metcalf, who is a co-founder and
board member on my new nonprofits board,
and the nonprofits, the Project T-Dot
Foundation, she introduced me to the city
of Toronto. And Project T-Dot was
monetized through my first solo Project T
-Dot art exhibit on the exterior of
Toronto City Hall and Nathan Phillips
Square. So, physically, that's, you know,
the largest art exhibit on a Canadian hip
-hop ever produced. Wow. And, yeah, it
took 15 years of hearing no to get to that
point. Prior to that, you know, I
sustained myself through commercial
projects. And eventually, in 2014, I
launched my media production company and
produced commercial photography and
filmmaking projects through that
entrepreneurial venture, while still
shooting Project T-Dot on the side. But it
was very difficult. And at different
points, I wanted to quit Project T-Dot
because, you know, it wasn't bringing in
any capital. And I was experiencing so
much rejection. But ultimately, my love of
Toronto's hip-hop scene and hip-hop in
general, and the doors that Project T-Dot
opened for me kept me going. And then, of
course, you know, you saw the image of
Drake on the Project T-Dot section of my
website. It's the, you know, I got to go,
I got to be on stage with Drake. So, you
know, some of the incentives, some of the
incentives for this, for producing and
shooting Project T-Dot are so great that
it was okay that I wasn't generating
income from it at first. Yeah, yeah. So,
okay, two questions here. Let's start
with, if someone might hear, wow, it took
him 15 years to monetize this and that
sort of thing. It might sound a little
discouraging. If you could share, you
know, with people, now that you know what
you know, what could people avoid? Or I
guess what tips would you have so that if
someone is like, I want to do this
project, or, you know, not the hip, not
like hip-hop specifically, but something,
whatever, lights them up. Like, what would
you do differently now, I guess, so that
it doesn't take 15 years for the next one?
Am I making sense? And also, it's like,
you know, I'm a canon ambassador now, and
that took about eight years of effort. You
know, I was, so I'd say for anyone
interested in producing a personal
project, whether it be through photography
or filmmaking or some other form of art, I
would say focus on something that truly
interests you, that you're truly
passionate about, that you love,
regardless of who is aware of it. And
that, as cliche as that sounds, that
passion will keep you going. You'll keep
revisiting it, even without any material
gain. So that's the first part. It's
pursuing your passions, pursuing what
you're genuinely interested in. When I
began Project TDOT, I didn't have
commercial interests at first. That became
an afterthought eventually, perhaps out of
necessity. But it initially began through
my love of hip-hop culture and the
curiosity I had in regards to Toronto's
hip-hop scene.
And I think it's also important for
photographers, filmmakers, creators to
diversify their persona, your sense of
self. It can't be based on one or two
things because if those one or two things
aren't going well or aren't going your
way, that can certainly mess with your
head. That can certainly undermine your
ego. What do you mean by persona? Like
branching out your persona? Well, if
Project T-Dot was the only thing that I
had going for myself, and if I saw it as
the be-all and end-all of my career or the
be-all and end-all of who I am as a
photographer, let's say, it would be quite
devastating if it wasn't evolving in the
way that I envisioned. Yeah. Yeah. When
you say commercial projects and things,
will you give us some examples? Like is
this for, you know, corporate companies
or? Yeah. Like for example, I was featured
in a promotional short film for Calm, the
meditation app company. I also produced a
series of commercial shorts featuring one
of my meditation teachers, Jeff Warren, on
behalf of Calm. You know, right now I'm a
mentor through Canon's Canon Canada's
Ignite program. So that's through that I'm
offering mentorship. Specifically on the
intersection of photography and
mindfulness through photography. So that's
through like the Canon Ignite program.
I've spoken publicly through Canon USA's
Get Up and Go conference. And I spoke
about mental health for photographers
through that platform.
What else? You know, commercial
photography for brands like, you know, H
&M, Christian Dior in the past. Wow. Okay.
Can we, I know it's very important to you
and it's a very important topic in
general. Is talking about the
psychological impact of being an
entrepreneur, a photographer, hearing no.
I mean, regardless of what genre you
shoot, we're going to have people say, no,
your prices are too high. I'm not
interested. You know, all of these things.
You know, and it's not like we have this
stable paycheck and, you know, 401k
benefits and all of these things. So
psychologically, it can be rough. How do
you, you know, how do you work through all
of that? Yeah, I think, you know, a great
book is the psychology of money. I believe
that's by Morgan Housel. So that's a great
book on understanding one's relationship
to money and where those beliefs came
from. So anyone who is a photographer with
that has a career with a commercial
aspect, whether it's full time or part
time. I think it's important to understand
one's relationship to money, how one
defines money, and then to also set very
specific financial goals and to understand
where photography fits into all of that.
The more ambiguous one's goals are
generally and in regards to money, the
more confusion can come about. So having
very specific goals and understanding your
relationship to money is hugely important.
Understanding the volatility that comes
with a creative career is hugely
important. And I was watching a video by
Ron Perlman, you know, the actor from the
Hellboy movie series, speaking about his
career. And he said that up until the age
of 50, he would have he'd be implicated in
a pattern whereby he would do a huge
filmmaking project, it would be mind
blowing. He'd bring in a ton of money.
He'd have fame. And then he would almost
immediately experience a drought of no
income for two years, three years. And he
said that those were some of the worst
years of his life. He had to think about
taking his children out of private school.
At one point, he had to consider selling
his home. But he said that the character
development that came with those tough
times actually made him into a better
actor and also provided him with the
resilience to keep going. So after he hit
the age of 50, then his income became more
predictable and consistent. But he had to
go through many years of hardships. And I
think understanding that before going into
a creative career is hugely important
because it can get incredibly rough,
incredibly challenging. And you do need a
lot of business acumen and an
understanding of how business operates,
how entrepreneurship operates, and the
psychology of entrepreneurship before
going into it. Yeah, it really is huge
because I hate it. It's like, you know,
why do we have to go through so much
adversity in order to build character? You
know, why can't we just build character
with all that, you know, but it does.
Hearing the rejection and things not going
our way, things happening to us. And well,
my kind of belief is it happens. It
doesn't happen to us. It happens for us.
But still feels like it's happening to
you. like all of that really does turn us
into better business owner if if we
utilize what happened to us in a way that
is a learning opportunity you know and we
look you know do the self-reflection and
what can i do differently and what needs
to happen and you know all of those things
But it's like, like you said, if you can
really focus on those goals, what it is
you want, your relationship with money,
your relationship with your business, with
yourself, all of that, the hard times can
be so worth it. Now I know it sucks. And I
know it's hard. It's just like, if you can
get through that, more often than not,
there's something better on the other
side. And another thing that's helpful is
also having a list of your accomplishments
and challenges that you've transcended in
the past, reminding yourself of the fact
that you've done difficult things in the
past and that you've, you've done great
things in the past, I think is hugely
important. Otherwise, the rejections and
the disappointments can become too sticky,
too dominant. You know, as human beings,
we have a strong negativity bias. Being
able to recall negative interactions and
situations and how painful they were,
that's kept our species alive for a very
long time. So our minds, our brains tend
to focus on negatives. That's just an
evolutionary function of being a human
being. But I think it's very important to
remember our wins, the positive things
that have happened, and the difficulties
that we've overcome. Mm-hmm. This brings
me, like, brings my memory, as soon as you
said that, to a story. I was in 10th
grade, Ajani. First day of this class
called Zen and Emerson, the teacher had
us, all of our chairs, arranged in a
circle, you know, the table, the desks.
And he handed us all brown paper bags, and
we each got, like, you know, 25 slips of
blank white paper. And our direction was
to look at, so everyone would write their
name on the bag. You would look at the bag
of whoever's person's bag you had, you
know, because we're going to pass the bags
around. Write whatever you think about
that person anonymously. This was an
anonymous project. You write what you
think about that person, and you put it in
their bag, you pass it, and you get the
next person's bag. So, when your bag gets
back to you, you now have 25 or however
many people were in the class, pieces of
paper with their opinion about you. And if
you just chose to not read what was in
that bag and burn the bag in front of the
class, you would get an A, and you never
had to come back. Not one person, you
know, he said, does anyone want to burn
their bag? No one raised their hand, and
he said in the 10 years he'd been doing
this, no one had ever burned their bag.
So, I opened my bag, and there are two
comments that, no, I'm sorry, three
comments, three negative comments that I
can remember. The rest of them were
positive. I could not tell you what they
said, Ajani. I can only tell you, one of
them said 90210 Wannabe. If you're really
young, 90210 was that like teeny bopper
show. So that was one of them. The second
one was Skin Cancer at 25. I worked at a
tanning booth, so I deserved that one. And
the third one was Does Not Indulge in
Thought. And that was like, that was hard.
That was hard. Anyways, I could not tell
you what the 22 positive comments were.
Isn't that wild? Yeah, it's wild, but it's
understandable at the same time. And it
seems like you remembered those comments
quite vividly. That's relatable. But if we
lean too much into the negative things
that have happened in the past, and I'm
guilty of this myself. You know, it can
lead to a lot of suffering and also within
the context of entrepreneurship, you know,
second guessing or expecting the worst to
happen. Mm-hmm. I love the idea of, like
you said, going back and reminding
ourselves of the things we have
accomplished and the good things. So that
when those negative things start to rear
their little ugly heads, we have that to
counteract it. I mean, I've had so many
wonderful things said to me in my life.
And now that I'm older and I'm, dare I
say, wiser, I can focus on those
positives. You know, I know when my brain
starts to go to a darker place and I'm
like, nope, nope, nope. Like I have those
coping mechanisms that I did not have when
I was younger. But I think a lot of adults
still, you know, really struggle with that
and go straight to the negative. And so
much of that happens in our business.
Yeah, sometimes it's easier said than
done. It is. As well. It's like sometimes
you are facing situations that are
incredibly challenging and put you to the
test. And, you know, in my case, I, you
know, I live in Toronto, Canada. The cold,
dark winter months can be incredibly
depressing. You know, even if something
isn't particularly going wrong, it's like
the weather alone can get you down. Mm
-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm in Michigan, so I'm
there with you. It can be brutal. I think
it's important to start to, like, really
pinpoint those signs and symptoms that,
okay, I need to do something to lift
myself up, to recognize it, to, you know.
I mean, what do you do? Like when you get
into that place of feeling stressed out
because where's my next client coming from
or – and I know you have your hands in a
lot of different things right now that
bring you in the income. But when you
start to feel that, oh, shit, what do you
do? Yeah, it can be difficult. I have so
many tools that have helped me, you know,
get through my toughest days. I have so
many forms of meditation. I meditate
daily. I meditate daily. And it can be
very difficult and confronting to do that.
But meditation is the most – meditation is
the most easily accessible, you know,
mental health intervention that I can
think of. I'm very fortunate to have a
great psychotherapist as well. I do
cognitive behavioral therapy. So that has
been hugely helpful. I've been in therapy
for about 21 years. And, yeah, therapy has
helped me tremendously. Journaling. I
engage in at least 16 different journaling
exercises daily. Wow. That's incredible.
You know, one – yeah, one of them is
called It Could Be Worse. So every day I
write down how my life could be way worse
than it is. So that's like counterfactual
thinking. A gratitude journal, I write
down three things that I'm grateful for
and also why I'm specifically grateful for
them. You know, I have a journal on, you
know, setting clear boundaries. So
boundaries that I've set in the past or
that I want to set in the future that will
lead me to live more in alignment with my
goals and values. So journaling has been a
hugely powerful tool in regards to
clarifying my thought and helping me to,
you know, strategize and think clearly
during those difficult times. You know,
where I may be facing a challenge within
the context of business. Mm-hmm. I mean,
you're obviously very in tune with
yourself and self-reflection and utilizing
so many different tools, which is – I love
it. I love it so much. I don't want people
listening to think that you have to
literally do everything that you just
said, but I think it's figuring out what
works for everyone. Like when you said
cognitive behavioral therapy, I used to be
a social worker. I have a master's degree
in social work. I studied cognitive
behavioral therapy. I used it with my
students and my therapy clients and all of
that. When I got therapy myself, I sought
out a therapist who cognitive behavioral
therapy was what they used. If you don't
know anything about it, there are so many
resources out there. Changing your
automatic thoughts, for example. So if I
get the thought that I'm never going to
succeed in business, I need to replace
that thought with a positive thought. You
know, it can sound so like daunting, like
cognitive behavioral therapy, but the
basics of it truly is something that you
can utilize in your life every day. It
really is. It's, you know, as long as you
just know what to do or if you –
especially having a therapist who can
guide you with what to do, it truly can be
life-changing. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I
agree. So, yeah, cognitive behavioral
therapy has, you know, helped me
tremendously. And, yeah, many people don't
realize that it's not only our thinking
and how we might contribute to our own
suffering, but also, you know, many of us
were taught things in childhood that may
not be helpful for us in the present.
Absolutely. Whether it be in business or
personally. So cognitive behavioral
therapy is great at untangling all of
that. Yeah, definitely. And it's funny
because even though, you know, like that
was my education was with all of this
background, but sometimes implementing
what I know – like when I was a social
worker therapist helping other people, it
was way easier for me to coach other
people through it than it was to do it for
myself. So that's why, you know, I sought
out a therapist because it can just be
trickier. Even if you know about it,
sometimes it is nice to have someone to
guide you through it, I guess. Yeah. And
also what you said about the childhood
messages that we've received, gosh, we
really do carry those with us. And, yeah,
it doesn't have to be our story anymore.
Like we can change that story. We can
definitely change it. Yeah, totally. Yeah.
And I think entrepreneurship also, it
brings up a lot of those childhood
memories. It does. You know, some of us
have childhood traumas, entrepreneurship,
and exerting yourself in business, and
simply putting yourself out there through
sales and marketing, it can bring up all
these childhood traumas or patterns.
That's why I believe entrepreneurship and,
you know, the creation of art and
storytelling. They're also personal
development projects because they lead the
artist, the storyteller, the photographer,
the filmmaker to confront themselves. Mm
-hmm. Okay. So, I mean, I feel like you've
given us a really good, like, foundation,
just things to think about and things to,
you know, hopefully act on if, you know,
if you're in that place of frustration and
just stress and even, like, despair about
business. Because, you know, times can get
rough. Clients aren't coming in, that sort
of thing. I kind of want to shift gears a
little bit. So, let's say work, you're not
getting a lot of clients in. Like, how do
you get yourself out there to market? And
I know you're doing all of the self
-reflection work and all of the things
you're doing. Like, when you go out there
to market, what are you doing? So, that
was a really long way of asking you about
your marketing. Yeah. Yeah. In terms,
like, sales and marketing and social
skills are the most important things. And,
yeah, cultivating relationships in
business, having a network of people that
view you as trust, both competent and
trustworthy is hugely important. Staying
in touch with your business network and
being someone that adds value. So, it's
like when you're on a call with someone or
when you email someone that you do
business with or have done business with,
you know, simply providing them with
information that improves their business,
teaches them something new that they can
use within the context of their business.
Being someone that is constantly helpful
and that adds value is hugely important.
You know, a couple of years ago, I
literally chased down Arnold
Schwarzenegger in my neighborhood to shoot
a portrait of him. And I showed him that I
was reading his book called Be Useful. So
that's the most important thing is to be
as an entrepreneur, to be as useful to
your target market, the people that you do
business with. Be as useful as possible,
be as difficult to replace as possible,
and constantly be in the process of
pitching ways to improve the businesses of
the companies that you work with. If
you're selling art, if you're selling
photography, if you're selling filmmaking,
those things have artistic value. They
have cultural value. But within the
context of business, people buy things
because those things solve problems. Yes.
So having a paradigm of being useful to
others in solving their problems is hugely
important as an entrepreneur. It is. And
if you are not someone who works with
other businesses or corporations or
something like that, an example for, let's
say, family photographer. You could solve,
let's say, mom. You could solve mom's
problem by saying, you know, within your
marketing or, you know, having other
clients who you've already photographed
share these things is you're going to make
this the easiest family photo shoot they
have ever done. It's going to be, you
know, give me 30 minutes of your time and
you no longer have to stress that you
don't have family. You haven't had family
photos for the last five years, that your
kids are going to be grown and gone before
you get a chance to do, you know, before
you ever did the family photos. You're
going to help them decide what size and
which prints to hang on that blank wall
that they've been wanting a family photo
on. Like, how can you like it doesn't just
have to be for corporations is, I guess,
what I'm getting at. Think about your
target client and what problems are you
going to solve for them. Right. Yeah. So I
think, you know, developing an ideal
client profile in ICP, spending the time
to describe one's ideal client, whether
it's an individual or a company, maybe
it's a small business. I work with
enterprise companies. So I would, in my
case, I describe the enterprise companies
that I want to do business with. Then I
describe the ideal executives at those
companies that I want to do business with.
And I do my best to not deviate from that
ideal client profile. You might not be
able to perfectly, you might not be able
to find your perfect ideal client, but
having a profile like that at least gives
you something to work towards. It gives
you an ideal to aim for. And then also,
depending on your industry and the volume
of clients that you work with, using a
CRM, client relationship management
software is huge. I wouldn't be able to, I
wouldn't be able to keep track of
everything that I'm doing and all of my
contacts and all the follow ups. And
neither would my assistant without the use
of a CRM. Which one do you use? I use
Streak. Streak. Oh, I haven't heard of
that one. S-T-R-E-A-K-E. How do you spell?
A-K. Yeah. Okay. That's my head. I'm like,
wait, I do Wordle every day. No. Okay. So
S-T-R-E-A-K. I haven't heard of that one.
Interesting. Yeah. Streak is awesome. So,
yeah. So having an ideal client profile,
using client relationship management
software. And then in my case, I've been
studying, like every single day I'm
reading articles on sales, pitching,
producing proposals. And that's been the
case since 2014. I study these crafts
every day. And then on a daily basis, I'm
applying what I learn. And also exposing
myself to a lot of rejection, which I
believe has made me a lot more resilient
within the context of business. My most
successful projects have been rejected
numerous times. Yeah. Gosh. Yeah. I could
use some practice on that. If I hear no,
not giving up. I think a lot of us could
use more practice with that. And it's
really encouraging hearing you say, like,
okay, someone said no for 10 times before
I got a yes or whatever. It's encouraging.
And I think it's important for us not to
take it personally. Like, maybe the
project just doesn't fit what they need at
the time. It doesn't mean it's a bad
project or you're a bad person or, you
know, like, I think that is a way to help
not internalize it, I guess, is it's not
really about you or the project. It's just
not a good fit for them for whatever
reason. Right. Yeah. Sometimes timing is
not on your side. You know, I currently do
business with companies that rejected me
in the past. So, you know, sometimes
timing is off. Sometimes the value that
you can create in the present is not what
they need. But maybe that could change
down the road. Yeah. I think the most
successful photographers, entrepreneurs,
creators are constantly taking action.
It's not a woe is me, pity party, I have
no clients, and not doing anything about
it. Like, taking action and making things
happen over and over and over. Whether
it's learning, like you were saying,
certain strategies about whatever it is
that, you know, you need to learn about.
Or it's like the education piece, the
marketing, like, like, relationship
building, all of these things, we have to
constantly at some point be working on.
Like, things don't just happen for the
most successful people. They're literally
doing something every day. And it doesn't
have to be, you know, writing in 16
journals or, you know, I think you might
be at this end of the, you know, the
higher end of the spectrum than some
people. But if you can find that middle
ground of what you're comfortable with
doing every day, things will happen,
things will change. If you're doing
nothing, nothing will happen, nothing will
change. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I sent
a cold message to your podcast. And yeah,
now we're talking, right? That's a perfect
example. Yep. And yeah, this summer, I'll
be spending the rest of the summer pretty
much in Japan. That's gonna be my second
business development trip in Japan. And,
you know, for the second time in about 13
months, I'm putting myself in a situation
that is mostly unknown to me and will
create enormous amounts of discomfort. But
I'm willing to do that because the
potential upsides are so great to me. Oh,
that sounds so thrilling and exciting to
me right now. I love that. I think I need
a little bit more of that, like,
excitement, new adventure, new venture in
general in my life. Because as soon as you
said that, I was like, ooh, I want to go.
That sounds fun. I love it. When you go on
adventures like that, whether it's for
business or otherwise, it completely
changes your perspective on yourself, your
career, people in general. So I think a
huge part of being a photographer, a
creator, an entrepreneur is putting
yourself in situations that bring up
discomfort and ambiguity. and that can
lead to a lot of inspiration that will
benefit you in ways that you can't even
predict For sure. Yeah. I'm excited. I'll
be following your Tokyo. It's Tokyo,
right? Well, I'll be going to other
prefectures, but I'll be mostly in Tokyo.
Okay. Yeah, I'll be following that
project. I'm excited to see where this
goes for you. Thank you. Yeah, thank you.
Thank you. Yeah. And just, you know, I
still have four questions that I always
ask at the end of each episode. But before
we get to that, you know, I just want to
say thank you for for just like this. This
isn't something that we always talk about
the psychological struggles of being a
business owner. And it's something that we
we really need to address more often. So
I'm glad this is the topic that you wanted
to, to incorporate into your interview.
And I and I just appreciate you, you know,
your vulnerability and just telling us
about everything you do and what helps
and, and sharing the rejection. So many
people aren't going to admit that, you
know, like, Oh, I don't, I don't, I don't,
I really don't know many creators or
photographers that get rejected as much as
I do. Maybe because I take so many shots
and go for, I go for my goals on a, on a
daily basis. and that just comes with a
lot of rejection. Ultimately, it works out
because eventually you get to yes. In my
case, a single yes can completely change
the course of my career and life for the
better. You only need to be right once. An
important tool that I forgot to mention is
the importance of having a support system.
Like-minded colleagues that remind you of
what you've done and what your potential
is. Having mentors that can see you
clearly and that know what you're capable
of and what you want to accomplish.
Speaking to these individuals, ideally in
person on a regular basis can be a huge
shield in regards to despair and
hopelessness and can keep you on the right
track. I had a lunch with one of my
mentors this past Monday and it completely
energized me and steered me onto the right
path. I spoke to another one of my mentors
two weeks ago, Jamel Shabazz, who's to me
one of the most important photographers in
America. Speaking to him for almost two
hours was so inspiring to me. I think it's
hugely important for photographers and all
creators for that matter to have a support
system that they connect with on a regular
basis. That's another huge tool. I
couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree
more. Sue Bryce has been a life mentor,
business mentor for me since 2012. And she
is that person to me, absolutely. And in
addition, I have a non-photographer mentor
who is also a huge inspiration. And like
you said, it's like, there's something
about having these types of people and it
doesn't need to be a Sue or, you know,
someone, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't
have to be anyone who has a big following
or claims they are a mentor or whatever.
But when you have that, that person who re
-energizes you and keeps you out of the
dark places we can go to, it is crucial,
crucial, crucial. Yeah. Awesome. Well,
thank you. Thank you for sharing all of
this. This has been really, really
wonderful. Yeah. I can't wait to watch
your next project and see where this takes
you. Thanks. Did you want to ask me those
four questions? Um, the first one is what
is something you can't live without when
you're doing a photo shoot? And this
doesn't have to be a, like a specific
product. Cause I'm going to ask you that
in another question. I typically I'll
meditate for a little bit before every
photo shoot. Nice. So that's, um, I think
that's like a routine that I can't live
without. Yeah. I'm not surprised you said
that thing is, you know, how, how
important meditation is in your life. I
like that. Okay. Number two is how do you
spend your time when you're not working? I
love going to art galleries and museums.
Um, you know, traveling is, even though I
often travel for work purposes, traveling
is one of my favorite things to do. Um, I
love watching movies. Uh, I saw the
Odyssey, um, on IMAX with my father last
weekend. Uh, that was mind blowing. Yeah.
Um, uh, I love hiking, walking through
nature. Uh, reading is one of my favorite
activities. I have, I have a lot of
hobbies, uh, yoga, lifting weights. Nice.
You're busy. You got a lot to do every
day. Yeah. Totally. Total side note. Have
you read Matthew McConaughey's, um,
memoir, green lights? No, I haven't. I
haven't, I haven't, uh, I haven't read it,
but he's, uh, he seems like a, a wise,
wise man. Yeah. There was something that
he talks about in there where he kind of
was, you know, typecast into this romantic
comedy kind of guy. And he wanted to break
out of that so badly because it didn't
feel true to who he is. And, and, and his
persona in general. And it kind of made me
think about photography genres too. Cause
it's like, if all you're showing is family
photos and you don't want to be a family
photographer, like you got to switch it
up. You got to start showing other things.
And he, he wanted to take on roles that
were not romantic companies, like
something with more depth and just
character and that sort of thing. And he
held out, he turned down like $15 million,
you know, films or whatever. Because he's
like, nope, I'm not going to do it. And
for two years, he didn't, like, he didn't
work. And I mean, granted, at least he
had, he didn't need to like put food on
his table, you know, financially, I'm
assuming he was doing okay. But he was
panicking, you know, for two years, he was
not getting any of the roles that he
wanted. And then bam, it hit. And he got
that, I think it was True Detective on
HBO. And then it just like changed
everything, everything. And it's like
holding out, like, I don't know, I don't
know, I don't even know why I really
brought that up. It just made me think of
everything you were talking about before
and really sticking with truly what it is
you're passionate about and what feels
right to you and that sort of thing. But
it's a good one. It's a good, it's an
interesting memoir. Yeah, I'll check it
out. Thank you. All right. And number
three is what is a photography specific
product that you like to use? Yeah, I love
the Canon EOS R5 Mark II. It's, yeah, I
like shooting in low light with it. It's
for shooting documentaries and
photojournalism, especially in low light
situations. Um, it's awesome. Yeah, yeah,
nice. Very cool. I use the R6. I didn't
bite the bullet and get spend the money on
the R5 because I'm not real techie. And
the R5 just worked for me. I mean, I'm
sorry, the R6 just worked for like, I love
it. Absolutely love it. I mean, you're
like, you're seeing me through an R6 right
now. Oh, well, there we go. You're seeing
me through a Mark IV, a 5D Mark IV. So
it's one of my older camera bodies. But I
have lens that like I'm so I never
upgrade. I swear I have an 85 1.8 Canon
lens. That is like, I think I got it like
12 years ago, cost me 500 bucks. I love
that lens. I just stick with what works,
you know. All right, number four is what
would you tell people who are just
starting out? I would tell them to, to go
for it. Um, there's nothing stopping you
from going out and shooting whatever it is
that you want. Uh, you don't need
permission. Um, you can, you can just do
things. Uh, you don't need permission. Um,
if you have an idea for a personal
project, write it down and go out and
shoot something. Um, and you have no idea
where that project will, will take you if
you stick with it. Perfect. Perfect.
Perfect. Perfect. Ending to a very
insightful interview that you just did
with me. So I appreciate you. Yeah. Yeah.
I appreciate you too, Nikki. Where can
people find you online? That was my last,
my last question. Oh, my website is, uh,
uh, uh, www.ajani.ca, johnny.ca. And my
social media is at a johnny photo, a J A N
I P H O T O at a johnny photo. I love
that. You just have a johnny.ca. Like I
wish I had Nikki.com. That's cool. All
right. Well, thank you again. And I will
be watching your, your work as a, as you
post it. Thank you so much. Thank you. Uh,
it's been an honor. Thank you so much for
watching. If you liked this episode, make
sure to subscribe and hit that thumbs up
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coming next. And if you want even more
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tools, head over to theportraitsystem.com.
We'll see you in the next episode. Bye.