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Journalist Markham Hislop interviews leading energy experts from around the world about the energy transition and climate change.
Welcome to episode 368 of the Energy Talks podcast. I'm energy journalist, Markham Hislop. I started reporting on Alberta Innovates' bitumen beyond combustion around 2017, I wanna say. Over the years, I've interviewed the any agency scientists many times as well as some of the independent scientists involved in the carbon fiber grand challenge whose goal is to develop a commercial process for creating carbon fiber precursor from the gooey oil sands bitumen. The challenge is in the 3rd and final phase, and I think we can say it has been an unqualified success.
Markham:Next year, Alberta Innovates will be building the 1st carbon fiber demonstration project. After that, will presumably come a pilot project and the commercial scale up, which can lay the foundation for an Alberta advanced materials manufacturing sector. As many of you as many of you know, I'm a big supporter of an Alberta pivot from producing feedstock for combustion to feedstock for materials manufacturing, which is why it's time for a catch up interview about bitumen beyond combustion with Michael Kerr, executive director of the Advanced Hydrocarbons team at Alberta Innovates. So welcome to Energy Talks, Michael.
Michael:Yeah. Thanks, and thanks for having me here.
Markham:I am a huge fan of Alberta Innovates work. I think, you know, the the the I'm not letting the cat out of the bag. This is the information, but, you know, the budget is about a $150,000,000 a year. And I often say that if it was up to me, if I was premier for a day, I'd give you a $1,000,000,000. Appreciate that.
Markham:Yeah. Trust me. If you ever if I ever get elected, you got a big pay raise coming because I I the way I see it, Michael, is that, I watch the Americans, their innovation ecosystem, and the money they pour into basic science and then taking that science and turning it into r and d and then taking it outside and, the bench and putting it into pilot projects, demonstration projects that eventually the private sector picks up and and commercializes and scales up. And and I think that Canada, but particularly Alberta, has an opportunity to do that in a much bigger way than it currently is.
Michael:Mhmm. Yeah. And and just to to, add to that that thought is we don't do it alone. So we do it with partnerships and, in particular on the bitumen beyond combustion and the carbon fiber center that we're gonna be talking about here is PrairieSky. So they put in $10,000,000, into that centre because they see the value in that as well.
Michael:So you have the province, contributing. We have the centre that's gonna be in Edmonton, and you have the the federal government certainly backing, that with the not only the funding, but also the resource of the, scientists and the technical expertise to move it forward. And then the other piece that is, very interesting and unique on this one is you have industry right at the table. And when I say industry, it's, both the large and and and smaller industries, which are certainly moving forward from the feedstock. What is the feedstock?
Michael:What does this mean if I'm at an oil and gas, location or the oil sands to to make sure that the end product is there and available? And then you also have these spin off companies that are, coming out of the university. So those academics you speak about are coming up with that that solution, understanding the chemistry, moving that into viable products that right now, little bit on the risky stage, but for all intents and purposes, we see that they have a commercial viable output to grow the manufacturing industry.
Markham:I can't say this enough times, but mayor the American economist, Mariana Mouscato, is absolutely right when she says this is the American model. The goal of public monies is to derisk new technologies, new r and d to the point where the private sector is comfortable with the amount of risk, and they can go out and do it. And, of course, in a big economy like the US, you've got lots of capital. You've got all of the institutions there that can raise, you know, angel investing, venture capital, different rounds, on and on and on, which we don't have as much in Canada. It's a serious problem.
Markham:I I can't tell you. I'm gonna and I'm sure you've seen it many times. The the companies that get they're caught in the the valley of death, you know, between their 1st round of funding and their 2nd round of funding, They need that extra I mean, they're too big for for angel investors and too small for venture capital investors. And, so I I think the fact that you've got industry at the table, you've got universities at the table, You know, this is sort of a a whole of approach is a really smart one.
Michael:Yeah. And just to dig into a bit of in terms of the investment and the risk side of it is, SAGD. If you go back in its original form, steam assisted gravity, density, extraction was actually a a or derisking of government investment into the oil sands back in the seventies eighties and certainly did actually, advance that. And then industry picked up that, piece and and made it more commercially scalable at that point in investment risk. So we're seeing the same thing happening here around the carbon fiber side.
Michael:So on the carbon fiber, you know, the investment, of course, at this stage is a lot smaller in proportion, but it is certainly moving us forward. And and, yeah, we are looking at how do we play a role in moving that forward.
Markham:Just a note of clarification for we have many listeners who are not from Alberta, and we should point out that steam assisted gravity drainage is a, a way to extract bitumen that isn't involved in mining. So 3 and a half 1000000 barrels a day of bitumen are are produced in Alberta. Half of that is by mining, and the other half is with SAGD, where you essentially drill wellbores, inject steam down into the into the resource. It loosens it up. Bitumen's like peanut butter, and so you've graft to make it flow.
Markham:And so you have a you have actually 2 wellbores. You have one that injects the steam and the other one that collects the, the I now, the the the bitumen that will flow. And so that was developed in in Alberta and and has been a success. So one of the okay. Let's talk about the molecular structure of bitumen and why it is not like other hydrocarbons.
Markham:I've interviewed doctor Paulo Bombard, from your team many times, and he talks about bitumen as a hydrocarbon sheet, a a sheet molecule of hydrogen and carbon atoms. And because it's a sheet, it is more it makes, it's excellent for manipulating into other forms. Have I got that correct?
Michael:Yeah. That that's a a good way to to describe it is, yes, you can look at it as a sheet. It's very complex. So and it's not just, hydrocarbons. There are other elements in there.
Michael:You do have sulfur attached, and you do have some heavy metals. So the the structure is very complex, and it's very, as you mentioned, thick like peanut butter. It's very hard. So, the viscosity does become a challenge to deal with, but it does also afford its ability to crack it. When it's talking about cracking, it is breaking it down into other structures that can be used for manufacturing and into other uses.
Markham:Okay. Now this has been going on for a while. We're talking about, I think in 2016, it was when it it's launched. The Grand Fiber, Carbon Fiber Grand Challenge was 3 years ago, 4 years ago. It's been going on for a while.
Markham:Maybe you could give us a quick overview of the the challenge and where it's at now.
Michael:Yeah. So there's actually, 3 steps, and the the third stage is actually ongoing right now. So the first, stage of it was to, look globally, Who is out there that can manage the the chemistries and turn the the, bitumen into fibers? And and we'll get into the fibers in just a second, but, what are the techniques and technologies that they can apply to break that down into making it a useful feedstock for other sources? Derisking, some of the technologies did work, some of them didn't.
Michael:In the second stage, we were looking at how do we scale that up, how does that that move forward, and fine tuning the process. This third stage, we're now down to 4 organizations that can really look at at, scaling and turning that into a viable product. That dovetails with the center that we're gonna be producing here in Edmonton, which will be starting to look at it for spinning. We call it spinning, but, essentially, it makes a string, of material that can be used for manufacturing, in a variety of different products. We made a few products from car mirrors, to steering wheels, to a hockey stick to even see how that plays out and very positive results.
Michael:Now manufacturing of products is one stream and how that's broken down. The other one that is also being looked at by these teams is can it be used for applications where it has connectivity potential. So that's more on the electrical canopy use for conducting electricity and a whole variety of other points on that one.
Markham:That's fascinating because I was part of a US Energy Association panel, and one of the executives utilities, brought along a, a buckle, I think I'm gonna call it a buckle, a coupler, of which a carbon fiber or a carbon line was, would attach to it. And so the current lines that are on those big towers, you know, the high the transmission lines would be replaced with this. The conductivity would increase by 2 or 3 times. They wouldn't it wouldn't have the sag and the line losses that it currently have. It would be, I don't know if more durable is the right word, but it would be a a significant, improvement and upgrade.
Markham:And the important thing is you're basically, significantly increasing the output of the infrastructure you already have. Instead of building new, you simply reconductor what you have, and it looks like there's a huge market around the world for that as utilities start to grapple with rising electricity demand.
Michael:Yes. And and that is a, certainly a challenge that is being put out, but it is an opportunity that we have. And it is being looked at, and it is getting international attention from those distribution networks and the manufacturers of those products. Can't say who, but, yeah, we are in in, conversations with them of how that fits. But I will go back to the chemistry, though.
Michael:Those are 2 different chemistries. So strength, you get higher strength versus one method versus the more electrical conductivity you give up right now on the some of the strength properties. We're trying to get to the point of, can we have both ends? And, hopefully, we can, but that's ongoing work that we're doing.
Markham:This is a good time to talk about intellectual property, because one of the major advantages, I think, here is the fact that Alberta Innovates owns the IP. And that is, the fact that you own the IP, puts the agency, I don't wanna say in the driver's seat, but it the ability to move it forward to to to move the research forward and then the commercialization of this is a huge advantage for the people of Alberta who own the resource in the first place.
Michael:But I
Markham:think that's an important point for our American listeners where 80% of the, oil that gets produced in the US comes from, private mineral rights, in Canada, under the constitution, that belongs to the government of Alberta, to the people of Alberta. So not only do they own the resource that's then extracted under license or under lease, I guess, from the by the oil companies, but now you the the peep the government will own the IP, the 8 that for the products that are manufactured out of that. And I I just think that it lays a really solid foundation for the building of an industry in Alberta.
Michael:Yeah. Although there are I will just, add to this around the IP is the intellectual property that we're developing within our loan labs, yes, that that is definitely owned by the Alberta government and the taxpayers. However, that said, when we're dealing with companies that are using this the facility and developing their own intellectual property, we will do fee for service. So we are open to those that have their own intellectual property that just need the material that are coming out. So there are the 2, camps, if you wanna call it that, that we will work with, and we will maintain the confidentiality of those, intellectual property if it is, let's say, a small to medium sized company that is going forward.
Markham:Let's talk about, the companies that are being created, the startups, to take advantage of this. And I interviewed a fellow a couple of years ago, might have been 3 years ago, who, it was billed as as carbon, as a bitumen beyond combustion. Really, it was a partial upgrading of of heavy oil, so it would flow in a pipeline. But nevertheless, it seems like these companies, engineers, other scientists, other technical people are popping up, and that is another feature of the American innovation ecosystem is this. Not all the startups make it.
Markham:That's not the point, but some of them will, and some of them will be able to scale. But you need that that, ecosystem of startups in order to get the product to market eventually.
Michael:Yes. Most definitely. There there is in this space in particular, quite an international, collaboration, I would say, of, and sharing of ideas to move the, the science forward while you're also getting a lot of interest from the venture capital market of how do we then scale up when appropriate these findings to create an industry and and certainly change the narrative around oil and gas as a fuel to oil and gas being a fuel plus these additional products that will have an advantage.
Markham:One of the, the points that I I I think we should focus on here is how much more value is created when you turn a barrel of bitumen into carbon fiber. Now the important important caveat here is that only roughly half a barrel is the heavy the bottom of it is what you call it in Alberta. It's the asphaltines that you're interested in. Once you take the asphaltines out essentially you have half a barrel of light sweet crude left that can you you can sell it if there's a market. You can put it back in the ground if if you want because there's so much more value created.
Markham:And your white paper that came out last year said that if you sell a barrel of bitumen for $50, you can sell the equivalent amount of carbon fiber for $217 and $100 for asphalt binder, $125 for activated carbon. So you either double or quadruple the value of that raw material, and you can imagine, all of the industry, the value, the jobs, the investment that could be created if we could turn a 100% of the bitumen we produce now into carbon fiber or some other product.
Michael:Yeah. And and the numbers are still being fine tuned, of course, so there there are at least projections at this time. And, yeah, we're looking at about a third to a half of the barrel, being viable. And you're right. The numbers are in the 150 plus range, out of that barrel for products and and fiber benefits.
Michael:But I I like what you're talking about the other benefits there. So when we're talking about economies of scale and and we're talking about the types of jobs that would come out of it, manufacturing jobs certainly have all there's more of them and more diversity within that portfolio, shall we say, that that are gonna have economic viability not just in one particular city or region, but this can actually go across the country as a as a benefit to many of the midsize and larger communities.
Markham:I get a lot of static when I'm in Alberta and I propose this because, you know, oh, it'll it'll never happen in Alberta. It'll go someplace else. But I interviewed Alex Wach, who is the VP of, business development for Zoltek Manufacturing down in Saint Louis. They're one of the big American companies, and they've been keeping tabs on what you've been doing, in Alberta. And he said, look, Markham.
Markham:We we put the plant as close to the source of the precursor as possible. Like right next door would be I ideal. You just send it over in a a truck. Right? And and then we once the carbon fiber has been created, then it's a a high value light material that can then be shipped anywhere in the world.
Markham:And so, yes, he said, we would invest. We would build a plant in Alberta to do that. And I think that that is a great argument for the for Alberta getting behind this because then you not only have whatever plants would be created, you have all the supply chains.
Michael:Yep. Exactly. Yeah. So you're you're getting the that precursor coming out, being, manufactured or, at least the the initial manufacturing taking place near the source, and that is the same with any industry. You wanna be close to that source and then certainly, move from there to the more advanced manufacturing or the fine final products if if there aren't other uses in those other regions where it is.
Michael:And, yeah, we have been working quite a bit with with Alex, and we have certainly started that conversation of what that might look like in the long term.
Markham:1 let's talk about applications for carbon fiber because this is really cool. I mean, you've already made a like, you mentioned a car mirror, which is black, and a hockey stick, which is black. But the thing that that it it, intrigues me the most is applications in the automotive sector because, you know, batteries are heavy. So companies are just now starting to look around and say, how do we lightweight those? And making automotive grade carbon fibers hard, and it's not clear yet that that bitumen will be a a source, but that's certainly one that you're looking hard at because it has so much potential.
Markham:Goodness gracious. And where are we at with that? Any progress since I talked to Paulo and Brian Heflbaum a few years ago?
Michael:Yeah. On on the battery side, yeah, there there is ongoing work with several universities, on looking at hard carbon being used for the anode component of the battery. There have been some, results that have come, some positive, some with, some more work to be done to to see where it's at. But the it's 2 2 fold. 1 is lighter weight.
Michael:We looking at the speed of charge and discharge of those batteries using a bitumen based hard carbon. And that those results are actually in a positive direction compared to your lithium batteries right now, lithium or vanadium. The other piece that is there is the batteries would be sodium based. So it's sodium. So now we're getting away from some of the downside that we're seeing in like, vanadium or or lithium as as a battery source of battery material.
Michael:And, of course, with sodium, it's readily available. That that has some, significant opportunities for us, and there's a lot of research yet to be done. There are international groups looking in these areas, and it is competitive race to get the technology that would move us forward yet.
Markham:I wanna tell a little story, and I've told it before in this podcast, but it bears, it. It's relevant for what you just said. Last September I was in Calgary for the World Petroleum Congress and I was wandering around the the exhibits and I came across a technical presentation that was just about to start on materials. And that was great, so wonderful. I'm really interested in this.
Markham:I'll go I'll go watch. So the moderator was doctor Ibrahim Abba from Saudi Aramco, the VP of Technology there. And he said, yes, we have an energy transition, but we don't talk enough about the fact we have a materials transition going on. And on the stage, the 3 speakers were 3 scientists, and there was one from China, There was, doctor Abba's sort of right hand man at Saudi Aramco, and the third one was Paulo Bombin from Alberta Innovates. Mhmm.
Markham:And to me, it illustrated where Alberta sits in this global race. We are a player. And I know, Paulo and Brian have said, we're a player now. We need to continue to be a player. We need to pour resources into this.
Markham:We we can't let the the deep pocketed countries and companies, squeeze us out, and we we need to keep the momentum we've already got going. And I I thought the fact that Paolo was on the stage there was a graphic representation of just how much progress has been made at Alberta Innovates.
Michael:Yes. And I would totally agree. Yeah. We are looking at a a material space, moving that forward, that narrative. But it's not just Alberta Innovates.
Michael:So we partner a lot in the ecosystem. So we are partnering with universities such as University of Alberta, University of Calgary. There's many people looking at the the fiber side of it, and how do we move that into advanced manufacturing. I'll also say very interesting in the Alberta narrative right now is many of the colleges are becoming Polytechs. So around the province, Alberta Innovates is starting to partner with, the Polytechs, the Red Deer Polytech with their center of innovation in manufacturing, is certainly taking an interest in partnering with and looking at the materials to move forward.
Michael:Nate is doing the same thing at at this early stage. How do we turn these into viable products in a multitude of different applications? We're also starting to look in these applications. The aviation sector is starting to really take hold in Alberta. We know in Strathmore that, we've got to have one moving in, and there's some initial dialogue happening there in terms of can some of these products be used for aviation parts?
Michael:You have companies like Fidelity Machining and, working with SAIT on what those opportunities would be. So really early stage dialogue is is happening, but how do we move that forward into action? We're just playing a derisking role. The center will be able to provide the feedstock. We're working with the oil and gas industry to provide the input that allows us to then produce the feedstock that then these other organizations and many small companies are gonna be using for the market.
Markham:Now, Michael, on Saturday, you and I were both in Red Deer at the Red Deer Polytechnic, for the Red Deer Innovation Fair. And I delivered the morning keynote and you delivered the afternoon keynote. The I mentioned, bitumen beyond combustion, of course, and this idea of pivoting over to materials. And my point to the, the the audience was that it's not that the oil and gas business model is going to be disrupted, it's already being disrupted and has been for a little while now. And that disruption is only going to intensify.
Markham:And so this kind of work that's been going on for a while is lays the found we're not starting from 0. We're already well into into this, and and that bodes well for the future. Tell us about the afternoon session and how your and and my my points were well received, and they haven't always been in in with an Alberta audience, but they were on on Saturday. Tell us about your speech and how it was received.
Michael:Yeah. So it was along the same same vein as as your own, but I I was kinda looking at the, larger ecosystem itself. So looking at energy as a whole, whether that's from other clean technologies or clean sources, talking about how the hydrogen economy is also coming in and playing a part of this narrative around energy as a whole. What I will say is, there was still a fair audience there. Even though it was later in Saturday.
Michael:There was quite a few people there and very much engaged into the fact that so many people were not aware of the work and the research and the great people that are involved in organizations from the Polytechs all the way through to the university. And so I took that away as a bit of a a challenge of making sure that those in the space and Albertans are aware of the the work that is going on to derisk some of this future of oil and gas. I have also had the opportunity of traveling around the province to the various, communities too. And so many think that it should be beyond combustion means the end of oil and gas. And it's and it isn't at the end of the combustion fuel.
Michael:It is a shifting, and there is opportunity here in the byproduct with the bitumen side of it to create new industries and new economic viability that will benefit everybody.
Markham:Let's wrap up our, our interview by talking about the the new center that you're building. Can you tell us about that?
Michael:Yeah. So the the new center, again, as I I started, stated at the beginning there, is a collaboration with, Prairie Scan. So thank you to Prairie Scan for investing $10,000,000 into the center. This center is being constructed now, so it's it's not it won't won't won't open until, June, July this, in this this year. And then what will happen is, we'll we'll start to run some product through and the get figure out all the quirks in the equipment.
Michael:And from there, it would actually be available for, for use by organizations such as the universities, the Polytechs, and those in the Carbon Fiber Grand Challenge. From there, we'll be able to scale up and and get that volume. So we're moving from the lab side with this equipment to be able to do, in in terms of the, more than just the kilogram stage or level to move that forward so that now the industry, the manufacturers can start to look at more than just one product. That they can start to look at multiple products, and we can start evolving, scale up.
Markham:Right. So it's kind of small batch manufacturing. So that yeah. And and then I assume that, once that's done that, you'll look at a bigger plant, and look at the preparing the way for, some kind of commercial scale up where you can make it where you can make it at scale for, like, if Alex's company wants to invest in Alberta and needs and and needs a commercial scale production. Now what exactly will be taking place at the center?
Markham:And where will it be located, by the way?
Michael:Yeah. So in Mill Woods, we have our facility in Mill Woods. It's our labs there. And, yeah, one of our
Markham:And that's in Edmonton. Right?
Michael:Yeah. That is in Edmonton. Yep. So that's on the south side of Edmonton, fairly near the international airport if if you know Edmonton at all. And then, from there, yeah, we'll be putting in equipment with different furnaces to heat up the material, to actually do the some of the processing that'll take there.
Michael:We'll be fine tuning the chemistry, and then we'll we'll also be trying to scale up how to, make those, as we call them, with the strings, the spinning part of it so that you then have that fiber that if you don't 3 d printers at all so 3 d printers, you get that string, if you wanna call it that. That is what we're trying to have as an output that can then be given to others, whether they're using it for 3 d printing, or other sources. They could break that down from that string.
Markham:And, how does that play into the, grand challenges? When does phase 3 end?
Michael:Okay. So phase 3 will end in 2026 is when those projects are supposed to to complete. But in terms of of the those recipients that are there there, many of them are gonna be involved with, scaling. So they are currently at the lab scale fine tuning their their chemistry such that if all goes well, they will be able to then scale it, at the center itself, and we'll be able to then work with the likes of Alex at Soltech to be able to look at, can we now start to fine tune the commercial applications and get some samples out to those end customers that'll be looking to to actually purchase in the margin volume.
Markham:So if I was to look out into the future, would it be safe to say that we're looking at 26, 27 to, you know, really get the, the demonstration project underway, looking at getting either into a pilot or straight to commercialization later in the decade, and laying the foundation for talking to customers in end user customers, like may might be automotive manufacturers, whatever, sort of 27, 28, 29, somewhere in around that?
Michael:I would say, yeah, that was roughly a timeline. But, just to be, clear is some of those initial conversations are already taking place. So, yeah, we don't have material, but we have to start those dialogue early to make sure that we're aware. We also get an understanding of the specifications that we're looking for for the material. What is the target we're trying to hit?
Michael:So right now, we're we're gaining that information. We're understanding what the volumes and what those specs might look like so that when we do actually get to that point of 26, 27, that we're ready to to do testing, with those various, end users and then be able to move that into full commercial viability versus the start stop that you see in many technologies.
Markham:An important point here is that, if you're successful, and I think I've talked to John Zhou, who's one of your VPs, And the goal, the ambition here is to be able to produce automotive grade carbon fiber at half the cost that is currently made. And when you can do it at half the cost, then you open up many, many more applications even within the automotive sector, but elsewhere as as well, that where carbon fiber just isn't economic at the moment. Is that is that correct?
Michael:Yeah. Correct. Yeah. As as we know in in both research and new technologies, the cost of those first few units is very high. And so, yeah, we're once we understand the chemistries and it then becomes an economy of scale, then the cost would certainly go down.
Michael:So that is exactly where we're at.
Markham:And that leads to the question of how much, bitumen could be used in bitumen beyond combustion, in making carbon fiber or whatever. Because excuse me. One of the objections I hear all the time is, oh, we'll never be able a a materials manufacturing sector will never be able to create the kind of domestic demand in Alberta that the American refineries create for for the oil sands. And I always respond to, how do you know that? I mean, this is a global industry.
Markham:You've got a globally unique resource. The only thing that comes close would be Venezuela, and I don't think they're anywhere close to where Alberta is in terms of of this kind of research. So, essentially, you've got we'd have a monopoly on the resource. You'd be well down the the the path in terms of creating different products, chemistries, what have you. And I don't think there is any limit on on what could be done eventually.
Markham:I mean, I don't think that Alberta should have small ambitions here.
Michael:Yeah. I I would I would agree with that as well. And just to muscle the comparison to Venezuela, our bitumen is different. The chemistry is different, and it is uniquely aligned to some of these new products that we're looking at. So we do have that advantage of it cannot be mirrored anywhere else that we're aware of at this point.
Michael:Then in terms of the industry itself is, yeah, we're still at the early stage. So we we don't know what the volumes will be until the manufacturers are up and running. What is that demand and where we're at. What I can say though is there's sufficient supply to meet at least the midterm needs that we're anticipating for commercial viability.
Markham:I this is my opinion, Michael, and I'll get you to give offer your opinion on my opinion. But I think that if there's a model here, it's China and it's clean energy manufacturing industries. They started 20 years ago, and they said, we're going to dominate solar panel manufacturing and battery manufacturing and EV manufacturing, and it's all come true. They dominate the supply chains. It's astonishing what they have done in a short period of time.
Markham:But that is the kind of ambition that Alberta should bring to this is this is not a sideline. This is not just a little thing happening on the side of somebody's desk. This could be literally the future of the Alberta economy if it's done right, and we can get behind it.
Michael:Yeah. I would I would agree with that. The we certainly have the opportunity. Couple of challenges we're up against in that market. One is the size and scale.
Michael:So their market is very large and the number of researchers that they can put to any given problem is certainly greater than we have. So we are in a bit of a catch up, on some of these other areas of being able to to do that. But, yes, we have to invest in these spaces. Otherwise, we will get passed, and then we're we're just a consumer versus a leader in that technology.
Markham:Well, Michael, I think in 2027, I'm gonna run for premier of Alberta on an independent ticket. My one policy platform, Plank, will be to greatly increase the funding for Alberta interface on the Benjamin FGI combustion program.
Michael:Well, we do appreciate it, and and, yes, we we certainly have appreciated the support to date. It is a longer term investment, and so we're midway through. And there's still work to be done, but we are moving from that that, bench scale, the lab, into the commercial viability and scale up, and we're we appreciate the support we've got. We do partner. It's not just Alberta based.
Michael:We partner with with federal, with, big industry, and with the post secondary. So, hopefully, together, we will move this forward to make a new industry.
Markham:Yeah. I I should point out that I've I came across, I forget. It was probably a website from the National Research Council where they're doing this kind of work in Ottawa, and I'm sure it's connected with what you're doing and and your teams are cooperating. So it's that's really good to see. I mean, this is something that, and this is directed at at Albertans, is when you have projects like this, one of the advantages of being in Canada is the federal government brings the big red checkbook.
Markham:If you do it right and you play your, I'm gonna say politics right, you do it right, the big red checkbook comes out, and it's a huge advantage for a province of 5,000,000 people. Mhmm.
Michael:Yeah. Yeah. And it and it is interesting. Levering the funding, private and public sector does actually have an advantage to derisk and move things to commercial viability, which creates the jobs and the and the economic viability for not just one particular city or location, but for everyone.
Markham:Right. And on that note, and I promise this will be the final note, is the the composition of that labor force is very important because a lot of highly skilled, technical folks right from the scientists down to the people who would be working in the in the, plants and so on. And Alberta already has more engineers, relative to its size than any place in Canada. It really is the industrial heartbeat of the country. And now we're talking about taking that industry and pivoting it into something else so it could be even bigger.
Markham:And I think that is a project to get worth getting behind. Michael, thank you very much. It's been fascinating, and I appreciate the update.
Michael:Yeah. Thanks for your time.