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Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
Everyone knows the story
of David and Goliath.
A giant, right?
Bigger, stronger,
and more experienced.
And then this underdog who on
paper has no business winning.
But the part that people
forget is that David didn't
try to become a Goliath.
He didn't put on the armor.
He didn't try to outmatch the
giant strength for strength.
He found the one opening
that actually mattered, and
then he went all in on it.
That's the part of the
story that feels very
real when you're a PMM
sitting inside a startup.
You look at the market leader
and think they have the brand,
they have the budget, they
have the default position in
every deal, and you don't.
So the question becomes:
how can you win?
That's what today's
episode is all about.
We're talking about how a
startup went head-to-head
with a category leader
and didn't try to outspend
them or out-feature
them, although there are
some significant product
differences in this scenario.
But seriously, they got
painfully clear on where
the leader was weak and
built an entire go-to-market
motion around it.
I could not think of a better
person to walk us through this
than today's guest, Collin
Mayjack Collin is leading
product marketing at Sibyll
where he's been at the center
of one of the hardest plays
in B2B, competing directly
with a category leader and
turning it into real pipeline.
Before Sibyll he was a
product marketer at GoFundMe,
working on a platform that
millions of people rely
on during some of the most
emotional and important
moments of their lives.
So he's seen firsthand what it
takes to build trust and drive
adoption at scale, not just
inside a niche market, but in
products tied to real human
emotion and decision-making.
What it ta-- but what makes
Collin's background especially
interesting is that before
product marketing, he was
actually a pastor, which means
long before he was building
positioning and messaging, he
was learning how to connect
with people, earn trust, and
move people through belief.
Sounds pretty close
to a product marketer,
if you ask me.
Collin, I'm so excited
to have you on the show.
Hey, Elle.
I am so happy to be here.
That was such a kind and
gracious intro, so thank
you for, for having me
Yes, of course.
I know I've been really
looking forward to this
conversation for a very,
very long time, so Okay, so
before we get started on the
actual case study, let's get
the listeners up to speed.
What is Sybill exactly?
Yeah.
So I like to think of
Sybill as a shared memory
for all of your sales
and go-to-market team.
So it captures everything
from your CRM activity
to your emails, to all of
your calls, and pulls that
all into one memory or one
context layer that your
whole team can pull from.
So AEs can figure out
what the best reps have
said to close a deal.
Your CRO can understand
what's actually happening
in their pipeline.
So instead of kind of generic,
"Oh, your pipeline's at
risk," they can get like a
real-time insight on, "Hey,
this deal is at risk because
of XYZ." And then sales
managers get all the context
they need from their best
reps to coach reps on how
to do better in their role.
So that's how I
tend to think of it.
We compete in kind of the
conversational intelligence
sort of category.
So your, the Goliath you
hinted at earlier is Gong
for us, but that's, that's
our product and the way that
I like to think about it.
Yeah, that's so helpful.
Um, so I'm sure it's
super beneficial across
basically the entire
go-to-market function to
be able to see and have
access to that transparency
within every deal.
I could see how
that's super useful.
Um, so excited to hear
more about how Sybill is
competing directly with Gong.
So let's start with
that as our case study.
I think a lot of PMMs
listening are probably
in really similar
situations, right?
Like, you don't work
for the market leader.
you're competing for the same
budget from your customer.
and bu- sometimes buyers
don't even consider
you, or they don't know
about you, especially
if you're a startup.
So take me back to what
was going on at Sybill
when you realized that
something needed to change?
Yeah.
So when, when I joined Sybill,
we were kind of in this
transition period where there
were a lot of people who were
thinking about us just kind
of as a generic note-taker.
But what we were actually
seeing was, one, we were
built for sales teams, and
two, we were getting a lot
of traction with companies
that were switching from Gong
to Sybill and just finding
a, a really strong fit.
We were finding a lot of
discontent with, uh, the AI
performance in, in Gong and
a lot of, like, the actual
accuracy of the insights
Gong would service about
what's happening in deals.
So we're seeing this just
big volume of people, one,
who were Gong customers and
then considering us, and
then once they get that--
to that consideration stage,
actually moving through and
switching over to Sybill.
And as you mentioned
earlier, we, we compete very
much for the same budget
line most of the time.
There are some situations
where they might work
together, but for the
most part, you're only
gonna pay for one kind of
conversational intelligence
tool, and it's us versus Gong.
But the pa- pattern we were
seeing was that across all of
our deals, the deals that we
had the best time winning were
when we were up against Gong.
And then two, we were in the
spot where we didn't have
a lot of brand familiarity,
and everyone knew Gong.
And so we were starting to
get these signals that when we
attached ourselves in people's
minds as a Gong alternative,
we got more traction than
we otherwise would have
Ah, okay.
So first you started
with this, like, pattern
recognition that was
coming out of your own,
analysis from all of the
deals that you've seen.
So what did you do with
that once you realized
that pattern recognition?
Did you see that as more of,
like, an opportunity, and was
it kind of like, you know,
experimenting from there?
Kind of walk me through
where you… What you
did with that insight
Yeah, so I, I saw this
opportunity that, uh, if we
were to attach ourselves to a
giant, we could, we could get
this awareness and get this
traction that we otherwise
wouldn't-- couldn't get.
So we-- I knew I wanted
to, A, drive brand
awareness for Sybill.
I joined Sybill, and almost
no one knew that we existed.
And then two, I knew that
at our size, if we could
even just capture some of
Gong's churn, like Gong's
a 300 million ARR company.
Like, and if-- so
let's assume 10% churn.
If we could capture even half
of their churn, that would be
an incredible growth rate for
a startup of-- at our size.
And so I knew I wanted to do
everything we could to, to
do that, to see how, how can
we benefit from their brand
familiarity to boost our
own, and then capture some,
some of their market share
I love that you kind of,
you, um, identified even
what a good, like, measure
of success would be.
Like, like capturing
their, their churn rate and
having the, the critical
thinking skills to even
think about, like, comparing
size and what a churn
for a huge Goliath-sized
company versus, you know,
more of a David-sized
company, we'll say.
and a lot of what you
put together with this,
positioning, some of it
is competitive strategy,
some of it is more like
competitive storytelling.
So it's like storytelling
plus positioning.
I guess, like, and
you went very loud.
You were very direct with,
you know, a lot of this.
So, you know, I guess,
like, walk me through
Oh, before we, before we
get to that point, actually,
like, as you were, you s-
you know, you set out this
goal of the churn, do you
feel like you have, like,
a strong result for all
of the effort and, like,
I guess, like, experiments
that you have been running?
Yeah
I think the, the shortest
way to put it is that
right now our win rate
is 80% against Gong.
So anytime that a customer
is in active deal analysis,
uh, comparing Sybill versus
Gong, we have a very high win
rate with them, and I think
some of that comes down to
our messaging and positioning.
And then we have a number
of deals over the last
nine months, like if I
go into Sybill and I ask,
"Who are we winning with?"
Sybill surfaces the top
insight is Gong switchers
is who we're winning with.
So a significant
amount of our revenue
growth over the last,
eight or nine months has
been from Gong switchers.
And as a company,
since we've joined… I
mean, we are a startup.
We are a Series A. There's a
lot of pressure to grow fast.
We have doubled our ARR from
September through April, so
over 100% increase in that
time, which really closely
coincides with this choice to
go all in on going after Gong.
S- something's working
yeah, I think the-- I don't,
I don't always think like
attribution is a neat line, a
lot of times we'll make these
efforts and there's kind of
a following more intuition
than we like to often admit.
but for us, I think I saw
this opportunity and I knew
that at our size, we had the
luxury where we could be very
loud and very vocal, and that
there was an opportunity for
us that if there is a kind
of status quo and you can
come in and you can critique
that status quo, people
are immediately interested
because they're either using
Go- uh, using the status
quo, in this case Gong, or
they're familiar enough with
it that they are immediately
intrigued if you come along
and say something's different.
This is very much like
what Slack did with email.
Slack came along and started
picking a fight with email,
and they got a ton of
traction, and obviously they
became what they did today.
And so I felt like at
our size, we could name
and go after our Goliath.
was a luxury that you
have at, at our size.
No one's gonna be mad
at us for punching up
in the same way that if
Gong went after us, it
would not land the same.
Oh, totally.
Yeah.
It would, they would, they
would get some heat for that.
Yeah.
Oh, 100%, yeah.
So I'm, I'm happy to break
down kind of, uh, our
flow and sort of how we,
how we went through it.
I think we saw this
opportunity and we
started creating this
really loud content.
So we tested it.
The first test, it was
a post of mine that went
semi-viral, right around
the era of Spotify Wrapped.
I put together a Gong Wrapped,
and basically what it did was
it took-- The same way that
Spotify kind of gamifies all
of your numbers from the year,
I took these numbers that
were rooted in customer pain
points for Gong customers and
tried to quantify them and
say, "All right, you spent
56 hours digging through call
recordings to get an answer.
You set up 22 trackers that.
didn't fire, and on--
Gong is increasing your
pricing by 20%," like all
of these hard numbers,
and it sort of took off
Yeah, and then it just
iterated from there.
I feel like you get,
you do running one
experiment like that.
Maybe you didn't even
realize that it was going
to be an experiment.
It was just something in
your gut that you knew, like,
I have to talk about this.
And then that it kind of
like iterates from there.
What I would love to do
too is take some of these
examples that you're sharing,
especially things like from
social and such, and if
it's all right with you,
link them in the show notes.
That way our listeners can
kind of go back in history
and feel like they're
part of the drama as it
Yes.
Well, the receipts
are all there
Love it.
Okay.
So let's take this case
study and let's turn
this into a playbook.
Imagine that, you've obviously
still, you're still going
up against your Goliath,
so the story continues.
But imagine that, you
know, you're coaching me on
this, and I'm at a startup,
you know, maybe solo PMM,
maybe solo marketer, and,
I've got my Goliath that
I'm going up against.
So maybe different
context a little bit.
Maybe I'm a different
market, so we'll have to
strip out some of that.
So I guess, like, as you're
coaching me through this,
like, what's the first
thing that I need to do?
What would step one be?
Yeah.
I think for-- This is a true
product marketing answer,
but I think if you're gonna
go after an incumbent, you
have to recognize they are
an incumbent for a reason.
So you have to get very
clear on what is your
competitive differentiation.
Like, what, what do you
have that they do not?
And get very clear and
dialed on that as a whole
team, and let that color
every single asset that
you're gonna create.
So for us, uh, the thing
that we were initially
leaning into was that Gong
was really good at setting
up trackers where you could
listen to call recordings,
it could-- you could get
really nice summaries.
Uh, but what it didn't
allow you to do was to
kind of in a GPT sort of
interface, ask questions
across all of your calls.
You could ask a, a lot about
one call, but you could a-
but you can't ask about,
"Hey, tell me, look at
the last 90 days worth of
calls and tell me what our
best rep has said about ob-
objection X." Like it just,
it couldn't contain that.
Sybill could.
And so I started leaning--
we started get- pointing out
that, all right, this ability
to query across all of your
calls at once, this is kind
of our special sauce that
we, uh, were able to identify
really, really quickly.
There's some other ones.
I, I think AI accuracy was,
was another one that came
up a lot, but w- that was a
byproduct of, again, Sybill's
ability to look at all of
that data at once rather
than one call at a time.
So I think that would be?
important.
Like fundamental one is
if you're gonna actually
critique that competitor,
you have to know how you're
different and get very
pointed with it if anyone's
gonna pay attention to you.
Is there, and I thank you for
giving the example too, 'cause
I think that's really helpful.
just to, to dig a, a tiny bit
deeper into your approach in
finding your differentiation,
'cause I have heard, which
I, I'd never agree with,
but I have heard, um,
marketers and PMMs say that
they, they can't figure out
what's different between
them and their competitors.
Any quick tips or suggestions
on, like, how to get there?
Yeah.
I mean, the, the simplest way
I think comes back to like the
fundamental of just talking to
customers if s- particularly
if they have switched.
Like if you're trying to
run this same playbook and
you have customers who were
willing to make that switch,
something motivated them.
There's so much friction to
switch vendors really with
any product that there?
was something that motivated
them, and it may not be as
obvious as a very strict
capability or feature.
Sometimes it's more
of like a philosophy.
So when I was at GoFundMe, we
used to talk a lot about the
flexibility of the platform,
and that was not one feature.
That's just kind of like
a philosophy that we
approach the product with.
So we would market a lot this
idea of like brand flexibility
and, the flexibility of
different plugins and tools
that you can integrate with.
Again, it was like mo- almost
a step above rather than
like a granular feature.
Brand becomes another one.
But if you could get in touch
with why would someone take
the time to switch, you're
probably pretty close to
finding what that motivation
was and therefore what
your differentiation was.
I love that.
So helpful.
Okay, so step one, get super
clear on my differentiation.
What's
Yeah.
The second step would be to
The kinda inverse of that
differentiation is the pain
points that might exist with
that existing incumbent.
So like getting very, very
clear on what are all the
frustrations that people
have with that status
quo Goliath, if you will.
So for us, there's,
there's kind of two?
sort of different
plays that we ran here.
One was the Gong Wrapped one.
So I literally, I went,
I dug into Reddit, and I
looked at all the things
that people were frustrated
about with Gong, and I just
amplified those, kicked up
the dust in that Gong Wrapped
sort of, sort of promo.
The second one was I, I--
this was the one that probably
got me the most heat, is
on April Fools, I announced
that I was moving from Sybill
to Gong, and it was right
on the line of satire where
people couldn't fully tell.
But if you read closely,
one of my lines was like,
"I'm super excited to move
from an environment where I
ship every week to shipping
annually." And it was just
like a subtle dig at like
Gong is not innovating at
the speed that it used to.
And I think people get so
reticent about this, but I, I
do think, I, I'll keep saying
this, this is a playbook that
you can only really run as
a startup, and it's a luxury
that you have, that you can
find those pain points and
you can actually amplify
them, which is what we did.
We were very loud,
very vocal about these,
about these pain points.
And people hear them and
they think, "Oh, I, I felt
that. Like I-- that's, that's
true for me." We know this
in marketing in general.
We just don't tend to do it
as pointedly with competitors.
But I think this, again, is
an opportunity that you have
if you're in a startup and
you have this kind of large
competitor you're up against
Totally.
And the bigger the Goliath,
probably the more you'll
be able to find some of
those frustrations in,
like, a Reddit community
or, you know, other online
communities and forums.
I know for example, in like
the IT world, there's like
Spiceworks is another common
forum where people go and
complain about vendors.
So there are places you
can go and find things.
so I'm curious, other than
Reddit, are there any other
online entities that you'd
recommend to try to find
some of those frustrations?
Uh, comment sections
tend to be a good one.
If people are really
frustrated with a vendor,
they will comment on that
vendor's social media, and
so sometimes that's a good
place to come through.
that one has, has
definitely come up.
And then the, the
switchers tend to be
a good one again too.
Like that's-- those are the
ones that are gonna most
neatly tie back to your
product, that if someone
has switched from big vendor
to you, they have-- I, one
of my favorite quotes was
I interviewed an AE who
switched from Gong to Sybill,
and she has this, uh, like
in a conversation she just
said, "Sybill's AI is so
much better than Gong's."
Uh, and then she said like,
"I, I would have my manager
ask like, tell me to run
something in Gong, and
the AI, the AI was never
accurate." And so I was
like, "This is gold." And I
was able to use that and put
it into some of our assets
kinda later on, or even
just tease it, tease it out
across different, different
things we were running.
But again, I think anyone who
has made that switch, I think
that's an early signal for
you that you have, there's an
actual tactic to be had here,
and then those people tend
to have just the best pulse
on what you could be saying
Yeah.
So helpful.
And I, anchoring on the
customer frus- frustration.
The other reason why that
is a good one is because
you didn't make it up
as part of a competitive
analysis, you know?
I mean, of course it, in
a way, you kind of had
this always on competitive
analysis, but you didn't,
like, pick something out that
fit really nicely into, like,
a feature comparison, right?
It was, it came straight
from the customer's mouth.
I was just gonna say,
yeah, if you can make it
feel less like it came
off of your Harvey Ball
comparison grid, which No one
trusts anyway.
Uh, like it's like there,
there are always these
misleading things of like
How did they even
come up with that?
Like
I don't know how we got here.
I think I, I imagine at once
upon a time it was helpful,
but now it's just kind
of always become stacked.
It comes up all the time
where, I mean, we had
a competitor, we have a
competitor right now who
has runs ads to a comparison
page against Sybill.
And l- I, I messaged
their h- their content
marketer who owns that?
page and was Like
"Hey, just a heads up, nine
out of 10 of these bullets
are actually inaccurate.
Would you be up for modifying
it?" They never did.
Uh, but peop- I, I'm, I'm
of the opinion now that
people are smart enough to
know that if you give, if
you give insights about a
competitor that are strictly
self-serving and not actually
rooted in people's experience,
they can sniff it out
totally, 100%.
So, um, okay, so coming
back to you're finding all
these customer frustrations.
Maybe it's in a comment
section, you know, whatever.
I'm curious on, was some
of the content in, that
you're coming up with, it
seems like mo- the majority
of it is on social media,
but we'll come back to kind
of like that in a minute.
But, um, is this like, do
you have like a methodical
process for coming up with
some of these, you know,
little content pieces?
Or is it kind of like an
ad hoc, as the opportunity
comes your way, you kind of
seize it and move forward?
And I guess, like, if you
were coaching me through
this to- today, would you
coach me in one way versus
the other, just kind of
like s- seize opportunities
as, as they come?
Or do you think I should,
like, methodically plan
content that leverages
some of these customer fru-
frustrations that I find?
So transparently, our approach
was much more ad hoc, and
I do think, again, this is
a luxury of being a small
team is you can move fast.
Like, I had the idea for Gong
Wrapped on, like, a Monday.
Gong Wrapped was gonna
drop on Wednesday.
So like I wrote up all
the copy, worked with the
designer, had them, had them
sp-spin it up, and then I
was able to launch it on the
same day as Spotify Wrapped.
So like it was-- the
timing was right, seizing
the moment was Right.
But I will say, the area where
there was intentional strategy
is the idea to even have this
kind of like content piece
partially came out of we were
gonna run a webinar directly
comparing Sybill versus Gong,
and I thought, "How could I
stir up just some interest
in this conversation?"
And the two ideas kinda
collided at the same time of
like, "Oh, Spotify Wrapped
is coming up. I could do,
like, I-- what if I, what if
I did a Gong Wrapped and we
have this webinar coming up?"
And it ended up being kind
of two layers of content.
Like to me, like this kind
of light, entertaining, a
little bit cheeky social media
content is very top of funnel,
but it could help hopefully
drive people down funnel into
something a little bit more
substan-substantial where
they could actually analyze
and compare the product.
So I think if I were, if
I were coaching someone in
these shoes, I think, one,
you, you have to take the
benefit of you're a small
company and you can move fast.
And some of the stuff
there's just, you have
to take the opportunities
as they, as they come.
But where the strategy
can come in is if you take
those opportunities, how do
you capitalize on them and
actually turn them into--
'cause it's one thing to have
a moment, a post that goes
viral, uh, but it's another
thing to have it live beyond
the couple moments of internet
fame and turn into pipeline
Right, so it sounds like
your strategy, which i- you
iterated on as opportunities
arose, but you would start
with these little social
posts that would go viral
as top funnel content,
and then you continued to
use some of that other,
competitive in- intelligence
that you were gathering,
coupled with just your own
positioning to develop,
like, the more bottom funnel
content like the webinar.
And I imagine that you have
other, you know, content
types, assets, et cetera.
can you talk a little bit
more about, like, what
that funnel looks like?
Like, were you very
intentional with that, or
was it you know… And,
and, and w- this might
be getting us into maybe,
like, and I, I don't wanna
get t- step away from our
playbook, so this might
take us into that next step.
So I don't, but I don't
wanna get ahead of us.
You, you tell me
Yeah.
I feel fine talking
to it a little bit.
I think, at the risk of
oversimplifying a funnel,
I do think having the
two sides of the top and
the bottom of funnel, and
you have to have content
that satisfies both ends.
And so I would say, did
we set out with a Perfect.
plan and then
execute that plan?
No.
It was kind of more like
we had an idea here,
and then it's how do we
build the other half to
support the other half?
So a lot of times for me,
my ideas were coming with
these top of funnel sort of
ideas, and then actually Drew
on our team had initially
the idea to do a Sybill
versus Gong webinar, and
it was like, all Right
how do we stitch these two
together for kind of a, a
moment that then ag- it would
drive someone down funnel?
The same thing happened with
kind of my, my April Fool's
play, where we were able to
kind of have this moment where
a lot of people saw my post.
Then the next day I was
able to do another post
that went not as viral,
but did really well.
That the hook was, "I
quit Gong after one day.
I'm staying at Sybill."
Or no, "I quit Gong before
I started. I'm staying
at Sybill." And I walked
through, and like I
said, the main reason I'm
staying is the feat- we
ship features really fast.
Here are three features
we shipped in the last
week, not the last year.
And so I could educate
on the product.
And then from a out, like
a outbound standpoint, I
could work with our head
of s- of sales development,
and she could look at the
people who were engaging
with that, drive engagements
with them, do outreach,
and kind of drive that.
Again, try to convert that
further into, into pipeline.
So I think did we set out
with a perfect playbook?
Absolutely not.
But I do think if
you're, as long as you're
thinking about those two
halves, and you might be
wired one of two ways.
You might-- There are some,
some PMMs who maybe who
are thinking like strictly
very bottom of funnel.
It's actually most of the
time where my ideas come is
like niche product content.
Um, these were rare
circumstances, I think,
because it was just bold
and no one gets to do it.
Like, I don't know a lot of
PMMs who've gotten to have
as aggressive of competitive
campaigns as I have.
But I had the ideas there
and I just then, all Right.
how do we augment this
with something substantive
at the bottom of funnel?
What-- No matter how
you're wired, having that
other component is key.
Like you, if you have an
awesome… Say we had that
webinar and we had no way to
drive people to it, to like
articulate that story and kind
of agitate the pain and get
them to want to learn more,
we would have a unattended
webinar with great content.
so I, I think that would
be the, that would be the
coaching component for me
is like making sure whatever
you're doing, you need to have
both of those components for
your competitive strategy.
Most of the time, the
top of funnel one is
the one that's missing.
We've got battle cards,
we've got landing pages.
We don't have anything that
we do publicly that kind of
stokes the interest and the
conversation to begin with.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And so if you said, so if
step one, coming back to
our, like, little playbook
that I'm outlining here.
If you said step one
was that to be clear on
your differentiation,
and step two, you talked
about agitating the, the
customer's pain from using
the competitor's product.
And then would step three
be kind of like, I guess,
at least outlining what
that funnel would look like?
Yeah, I think so.
I think that would be, I,
I think maybe the best way
to put it is to like, to
create a full funnel cr-
uh, competitive motion to
make sure that if you're
amplifying… I think that's,
that really is that second
step is kind of about the top
of funnel and making sure you
have somewhere to, lead all
of that interest and intrigue.
So like if at top of funnel
you're amplifying the
dissatisfaction, the bottom of
funnel you're kind of, you're
proving why you're different
and you're actually showing,
showing why you're different.
It's, it's the, it's the
receipts, if you will.
You know, you've, you've,
you've made claims.
How do you actually
like prove and make good
on, on those claims?
Yeah.
I really appreciate the way
that you're articulating the
funnel as thinking about it
from like a customer, like
a customer journey but also
how they are going through
their own decision tree
of, you know, the David
versus the Goliath, the,
the Sybill versus Gong.
It's a really helpful way
to think about how to build
a funnel and, and how t-
how the story unfolds.
Yeah, it's--
think about it
Well, thanks.
Honestly, it's been late
adopted for me 'cause I
really do think most product
marketers, we specialize
more toward the bottom.
We're, we're close
to the product.
We think through, we think
through all the use cases.
We've got product explainers
and Storylane, uh, interactive
demos, like, I think for me,
this is where Sybill, being a
leaner team, where it's like
we're a very small marketing
team, it's forced me to think
through that whole, that whole
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
And now I wanna go back to,
I had a question for you
earlier about some comments
that you made, um, and some
of the examples that you've
given on these viral posts
that you've done, right?
So they're quite bold.
I've so many
questions about this.
Oh, please
how do you do the gut
check of is this too far?
how do you know whether
you're crossing the line
of like, "No, this is bold.
This is my conviction," versus
like, "Okay, now I, now this
is just getting offensive"?
Not that, not that
you've crossed the line.
I think you've done
actually a really
nice… Yeah.
Yeah, you've, yeah, but like
you've done a really nice
job of like being as bold as
possible while still what I
would say is like remaining
or, or maintaining strong
conviction in, you know,
your beliefs, and of course
it's your, your product, but
like as you said, you have
the receipts to prove it.
So I guess like talk
about how you, how you
flirt with that line.
Yeah, I think there's a
couple considerations.
I mean, any product marketer
thinking about this, you have
to think about just your team
culture and your brand and,
like, what is your company
okay and not okay with.
I'm fortunate enough that,
like, Sybill is a very
h- I've never been in a
more high autonomy role.
Like, I report to our CEO.
He gives myself and Drew a ton
of trust, a ton of leeway, and
a lot of just like, "I trust
your intuition." And we also
knew we wanted to stand out
to sh- we wanted to shape a
brand that was spiky in its
point of view and stood out
and was not, I think the r-
the sales tech stuff can get
really lost in the sauce with,
like, very, I don't know,
jargony sort of language.
So, like, there was
like org-wise, okay,
this checks out.
Like, you, you can't
just start doing this if
it doesn't, if it's not
actually, like, approved
and part of the culture.
But then getting down to
these, like, specific tactics,
I think there were kinda two
very basic filters I, I ran.
One, is this critique or this
competitive tactic actually
rooted in the truth about
their product and our product?
Like, I just-- That was like
an honest question I asked,
like, all right, is even--
Take the Gong wrapped thing.
I looked through
like, is this true?
Like, am I, am I saying
anything that is actually
inaccurate about the product?
And that was-- I think I
deemed that I wasn't, and
the comments seemed to
affirm that because there
was-- my comments were
full of people being like,
"This was dead accurate."
Like, there was a lot of…
I think someone commented
like, "Where's the lie on, on
this?" And so I think, one,
that was like a litmus test.
And then the second one
is, I do think it still
is possible to overdo it.
And so We were ta- I was
talking internally of like,
"Hey, I'm, I have this idea
where I'm gonna buy A Gong
shirt, and I'm gonna announce
on April Fool's Day that
I'm switching to Gong."
And we were just,
like, deciding, like,
should we do it?
And we asked, like, "Well,
how long ago was it the last
time, we took, like, a big
swing?" And we realized the
gap between Gong Wrapped and
April Fools was six months.
It's like it, it was
like, all right, at this
rate, we're like, yeah
at this rate, we were
on part for two, like
a biannual big swing.
And I'm like, okay, this
is not all the time.
It might feel all the time,
and social might make it feel
that way just because there's
no one else is-- not a lot
of people are doing this.
but those were kinda my
two litmus tests of like,
are we doing this too much?
Because we can't only be
known as the anti-Gong.
And then is this
based in truth?
Like, is there truth about our
product that backs this up?
Uh, because Yeah
if I just say something that's
true about the whole category
and we're not an exception,
then what are we doing here?
Versus or if I'm making
up something that is not
actually proven true about
their product, I don't
wanna be caught saying that.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So helpful to have kind
of the, the filter test,
uh, before you actually
go viral with something.
now on a similar note,
you are choosing to use
your personal profile on
LinkedIn to launch these.
It's not coming from
the Sybill page, which
is, as all company pages
are, a faceless page.
It's coming from Majcak.
So, and, and there has been
even, like, debates about
this at conferences and
everything of, like, that,
like, founder-led marketing
and using the founder or
someone else in the company
to, like, you know, you know,
help, uh, articulate point
of view on social media.
So I guess, like, talk a
little bit about what that
decision was like and, like,
was that intentional, or
did it kinda just start with
you being vocal and then it
evolved into now you have
conversations with your,
I think you said your BDR
before you actually post
something so that it can
get into your funnel and,
um, which becomes, you know,
now a strategic channel.
So I guess talk a little
bit about that and, like,
maybe some of the risks
and limitations versus,
you know, the positive
outcomes for you personally.
Yeah.
So I didn't-- I'll say out
the gate, I did not set out
for my LinkedIn to become
a key channel for Sybill.
I think it started from, just
even in terms of how this
started, is that I really like
creating content about product
marketing in a very, like,
build in public sort of way.
Like, this is what I'm working
on and kind of done that in
varying degrees depending on
the org and how comfortable
they are with me sharing.
But this sort of started
in that, like the, the Gong
Wrapped post, for example,
technically six different
accounts in the Sybill
team and org posted that,
that wrapped carousel.
Mine took off, and I think
I have some theories on why
some of the-- Like Talia
Heller actually did a write-up
of the whole tactic, and,
uh, she had a hypothesis on
why, and I think, I think
she was probably right.
But I sort of, it was
sort of part of me like
stumbling into, oh, like
there's something about when
I attach my face to this
and I actually like, in a
very faced way to be the
antithesis of like a Sybill
page, like not faceless, but
like it's me, It's Colin.
I think that draws people's
attention in a unique way.
And I'm at a spot where
I, I recognize there's
pros and cons to it.
So like a potential risk
here is I got a, I got a
direct outreach, uh, DM
yesterday where someone,
the, like the first thing
they said was, "Hey, Mr.
Gong Hater, H, number eight
R, Gong Hater." And, and
then literally someone else
was like, "Oh Yeah like I've
seen a lot of your content.
The whole, quote, 'Gong fight
me' thing is really working
for you guys." These are two
DMs in the last 48 hours.
So the cons are like,
am I becoming known as
this person who's just
picking a fight with Gong?
That's a potential like
risk that you take.
The pros are though, that
I think in a lot of ways
product marketers are uniquely
positioned to become the face
of the product because they
know the message better than
anyone, and they know the
product better than everyone.
Uh, or ideally, they know
what matters and how to
communicate that product
better than anyone.
And so I think it has
naturally sort of worked
where, yes, people associate
the Gong things, but I'm
also like constantly posting
product updates about Sybill.
Like mo- if you look back,
like most of it is just
classic product marketing
of like talking about the
product and how it works and
why, what our thinking was
going into it.
Yeah,
Yeah, there's these
moments like, yeah, they're
the moments that get
more traction and heat.
But I, I do think that this
partially worked because
a person was tied to it.
I don't think it has to
be your product marketer.
I think picking someone
though goes a long way.
So like a good example is, Uh.
a company Pylon.
They're in the
customer success space.
They're actually kind
of a similar tool,
but in that category.
And they very vocally com-
they're I think series B,
series A, series B startup.
They very vocally compete
against Zendesk to the point
where their CEO had the
headline in, on LinkedIn
where it said, "Building
the Zendesk Killer."
Uh.
And I, I think that
worked for them.
I think they are another kind
of example of they came along,
they picked their Goliath,
they used the luxury that
they had of being a smaller
brand and were vocal, and
then they attached a person
to it, so the CEO ended
up being the embodiment.
For me, it just I think worked
for my personality and even
I think product marketers
Tangent, I think product
marketers are an interesting--
They can be a user of Sybill.
They're not like the person
we sell to, but like every
product marketer I know
who has access is like,
"This thing is so sick."
So anyway, it was a little
bit of a, a little, to
quote our friend Bob Ross,
it was a little bit of a
happy accident, uh, a happy
little tree of an accident
that I became this kind of
face, face of the brand.
I do think you have
to have a face.
It just, if you're gonna
make bold claims to your
competitor, it's almost like
there's a certain courage
of not being a coward.
Like
someone
I completely agree.
I was-- That's exactly what
I was gonna say, and I'm,
I'm glad you mentioned that,
like, having the courage to
be bold requires a, a person's
name and face behind it
Yeah.
And I, I think I'm okay with
the risk because I stand
by the approach I've taken.
And there's, there's a risk
that someone would say,
"Oh, I would never hire
Collin because he was way
too aggressive with Gong."
I probably wouldn't do
this play in every company.
You have-- Again, it has to
be the right, right company.
You have to have, like, the--
You have to ha-ha- be in
that kind of, like, hierarchy
where they're bigger than
you and you're smaller.
You have to have the, a
precedent for switching.
You know, there's, there's
got to be real frustrations
you can speak to.
But for me, it's been,
proven to be worth it
Got it.
Okay.
So taking us back to our
playbook, we have step
one to make sure that you
are very clear on your
differen- differentiation.
Step two was to lean into
the customer's frustration
with your competitor.
Step three was to build out
that full funnel kind of
narrative and, um, maybe not
necessarily all every single
tactic because as you, um, you
know, pointed out, sometimes
it's just opportunistic
and you go with it.
And then what's kind
of wrap us up here?
Like, I feel like maybe we
kind of got into it a little
bit, um, with the using
you as, you know, the, the
person leading it on the
social side, but like what--
how do we wrap this all up?
Yeah
I think the simplest
way to put it would be
to put a face on it.
Someone, someone
has to own it.
And if you're a product
marketer and you're thinking
about the distribution here,
it does not have to be you.
It can be.
Uh, for me, it worked out
for it to be, is it, if
depending on if you have
someone, say you're selling
to salespeople, like if we
had the right salesperson
in our org, it, who wanted
to be kind of this persona
public, it could've been them.
Or if you sell to customer
success, you could have
your CSM be this person
and, you know, like you can
find sort of that person.
But I think someone
tying their face to the
whole thing just helps.
It gives a credibility
to the whole thing.
And people f- now peop- uh,
the kind of psychological
element of this is people
will see Gong stuff and
they will remember their…
They will feel a personal
connection to me, and they
will feel like a sense of
discontent or frustration
at Gong just because of me.
And that's like,
you can't do that.
You can't tap into that if
there's not a person, because
there, people feel way more
disproportionate loyalty
to people than they do to a
Yes.
Uh
I'm so glad you
called that out.
Yeah, there's so much
psychological, um, b- you
know, just facts, like
coming out of it using
a strategy like this.
Yeah.
I'm sorry I cut you off.
You were gonna…
No, Uh,
no, that's exactly it.
It's, it's just using… I
think that psychology plays
to plays to your benefit.
You know, and r- again,
didn't set out for it,
kind of stumbled a lot
of this by accident, but
I would recommend it.
It was a lot of
learning as we go.
Again, I've never ran anything
this aggressive, so it was,
I was learning it, and I'd
hadn't, didn't know a lot
of people who had ran as
aggressive of campaigns.
So it was
a
The other… Oh, of
course, and I feel like
with anything that's,
you know, bold and new,
there's gonna be learning.
The other thing that I
was thinking, that like,
again, if you're coaching
me through this and I'm,
I'm trying to run this
thing for the first time,
I would f- I would
want someone, whoever's
face is behind making
these big, bold…
sharing these big, bold
narratives, I would want
it s- I would want their
personality to match because
it couldn't-- Like, if someone
was, um, you know, just had
a different temperament, and
just it wasn't kind of, you
know, in their nature to, you
know, make some really big,
bold, I don't even wanna say
digs, but, like, you know,
to lean into some of those,
to some of that friction that
you might have, like with,
you know, another brand.
Some people are, feel
uncomfortable being
in that position.
So I think, like, to, and
you might have mentioned
this already, but, or maybe
you mentioned it on our prep
call, but finding someone
who the personality fit to,
to share the bold narrative,
I think is really important,
is a really important part of
success when you're pi-picking
the person who's, who's kind
of running some of these.
Totally.
I think for me it just sort
of worked out that I like a
little bit of conflict, and
it's probably dopamine-seeking
behavior of some sort.
But like I was, I, I like it.
I think the whole
thing is exciting and
fun, so it worked.
There are other people
who, like, the idea of this
public conflict, like for
example, my wife could never.
She's not a product marketer,
but this is like, would
not be her cup of tea.
Um, and I think just
being honest about that,
if that's not you, then
you're, you shouldn't be
the person to do this.
But there probably is
someone… If your CEO
honestly doesn't believe in
the product enough to be this
way, it's like, well, you
might have bigger problems.
Um, or if someone at the
executive level doesn't
believe in the product enough
to kind of be that way, you
would have bigger problems.
But someone, if it's not
you, it can be someone
who's comfortable with
that, has a tolerance
for that kind of conflict
Yes, yes, so we need someone
with really deep conviction,
so deep that they, if they
weren't originally comfortable
with conflict, they will be.
Yeah.
And it's, it's so funny
calling it conflict, like that
this is the most drama thing.
It's like, let's be real.
We are selling software
to other people who are
selling software to other
people selling software.
It's like none of
this is that serious.
Um, like, I don't know.
It's-- I think I like
to remind myself that
like if I stop selling
Sybill, nobody dies.
You know?
Like
this is a…
That's why, that's why
I call it more like,
it's more like friction
than conflict to me.
You
know?
It's like, it's a
Yeah,
bit of like, "Oh, I don't
want to offend you. Your
product's not good." You know?
Like, it's
Yeah.
Which people in other, other
streams do this all the time.
It's just like B2B, we're not
used to this level of… I
don't know, it's like almost
there was like a, there was a
really popular rule once upon
a time of like, I still hear
it, it's like, "Don't talk
about your competitors, it
just gives them attention."
And I could not
disagree with that.
take
more, particularly
in our position.
I think, again, flip it,
Gong should not give any
of their public time to us.
They shouldn't, 'cause
they have the upper hand.
When you have the-- when you
do not have the upper hand,
it would be, it'd be amiss
to not take that opportunity
Yeah.
Yep.
Totally agree.
Okay, last question for
you on this topic, Collin.
Um, what's one piece of
advice that you would want,
uh, PMMs to walk away with
who are trying to go bold
with a competitive, um, you
know, a, a strategy like this?
my advice would probably be
to push, push the boundaries.
I mean, even kind of
as we were hinting at
before, the boundaries
are so tame actually.
Like when you think about
what, what people are
typ- often doing in this
space and the stuff that
causes, like stirs up
gossip or controversy,
con- controversy in B2B.
I would say one,
pushing that limit.
And then I think second
is to take the opportunity
that you uniquely have.
like if you are in this
spot, you have a unique
opportunity your competitor
does not, and I would highly
recommend you, you take it.
It's-- this?
is, it's, it's a str- it's
not just a, uh, it's not
just being aggressive for
aggressive sake, it's a
strategy play, an advantage
that you have that they do not
have that I think is really
valuable to that opportunity
Absolutely.
Yeah, why wouldn't you wanna
run every opportunity you can
to try to get ahead, you know?
Why would not, um, you
know, obviously not in ways
that are ethical and good,
Yeah.
Maybe in three words,
maybe in three words the
advice is just go for it.
Go
for it.
Like, like
actually go for it.
Like do the competitive
campaign, do the idea,
the unhinged idea that.
started in Slack,
which is how some
Yeah.
Like actually
do
good.
So good.
Um, well, thank you so much.
This was such a
good case study.
Um, I'm really eager
to hear how people, how
some of the listeners
put it into practice.
So if any listeners out
there are, um, executing
on something similar, come
back, tell us how it went.
Yes, please message
me if you do
All right.
Okay, so now it's time for
the next segment of the show.
This is the
messaging critique.
So this is where we as product
marketing experts get to
analyze real world messaging.
Um, and the fun part is,
Collin, as the guest on my
show, you get to pick the
company or campaign that
we are looking at today.
Very quickly, I'm gonna
outline… Yeah, very
quickly, I'm gonna outline
some, uh, ground rules.
So first, we're gonna
pick a company where you
understand the target
audience really well.
Wouldn't be fair for me
to analyze messaging on a
company that I know nothing
about, and I don't know who
their target audience is.
So who am I to say whether
or not their messaging
is effective or not?
Um, and then we're gonna talk
about what the me- what's
working really well, what's
not working at all, and,
uh, how you'd iterate on it.
What advice do you have
to the PMM out there to
take it to the next level?
So without further ado,
yeah, please reveal the
All right.
So I've already talked about
them on this call, but I am
going to talk about Zendesk.
So if you don't know
Zendesk, Zendesk is in the
customer support space.
They have a, have a platform
where you can take in
customer support tickets,
resolve those tickets, and
they ran a campaign, I think
this was like two or three
weeks ago, where this was,
this was their headline:
"Want to talk to a human?
Call your mom.
Self-improving AI agents
are here." That was the,
Womp, womp,
Womp, Like, no.
so they, yeah, the call--
We'll call it from henceforth
the Call Your Mom campaign.
And so that, that's
the campaign, and it
was trying to support
their AI agent's launch
Um, I have my thoughts.
What are yours?
Okay
I'll start with the positive.
I wanna follow the rules
of what I, what I loved
might be strong, but the
positive is the, there's
a very clear establishing
of the alternative.
Like they are saying there
are, there's human customer
support and there are agents.
Like these are the two
options, and they are
making a case that these
self-improving AI agents
are the better option.
And I do think like some--
there's a lot of product
marketing that doesn't,
or a lot of marketing out
there that doesn't even
name the alternative.
And I think even to, for them,
the competition in, is the
alternative in some strange
ways or to like, probably
more the old way of doing it.
That's, the positive.
They've, they've
established the,
the alternative
that's actually a
really good point.
I, I, I didn't think
about that the first time
that I looked at this,
and I think you're right.
And okay, all right.
I'm
it's easier to roast than
it is to compliment, so I,
I have my feelings on what
needs, what, where we need
You're right.
That's totally fair.
I, I l- I appreciate that,
that line of thinking.
Okay, so that's
what's working well.
What is not working well here?
So I think there were a couple
areas where this misfired.
Uh, the first one is
just customer sentiment.
I think the risk
they make here?
is trivializing or
minimizing their customer.
So their customer is CS
people, the people that you
would talk to if you had
a problem with a product.
And there's kind of this
like trivializing and almost
mocking of that person,
that I think is a miss.
Uh, not intended,
but I think is a
Yeah, I was gonna say I don't
think it was intended, but
Now, the second layer I think
is an end user sentiment.
I think most people actually
still want to talk to humans.
Like a lot of people
like talking to humans
when they have a problem.
And so I don't think the right
angle is, mocking that desire.
That is like that's what
the market wants, whether
you like it, Zendesk, like
that's what a lot of people
actually still do prefer.
And so mocking it's
probably not the answer.
Um, and then I think the
third one is probably the,
maybe the one of the bigger
issues is just like the
sensitivity and, and timing
of this, is that this campaign
launched like two or three
weeks before Mother's Day.
And I think even like some
of the best brands, like
Kroger did this recently,
where like Kroger sent an
email where that w- a couple
weeks ago that said, "Hey,
would you like to opt out of
Mother's Day communications?"
And they basically
said, "Mother's Day is
hard for some of us.
Do you wanna opt out?"
And I think they're… It,
the same problem would've
existed if they said, "Call
your dad." But like I do
think people, people have
complicated relationships
with their parents, people
have complicated relationships
to Mother's Day, and they
stacked those two and managed
to hit both of them at the
same time, which to me feels
just like miss, miss, miss
a-across, across the board.
Yeah, I totally agree.
And just to-- I think the,
the part that probably, and,
and I might be speaking to
this from my own sensitivity.
I-- my mom passed away not
too long ago,
so I, I can't… Thank you.
Yeah, I can't call my mom.
And, and which, which takes
me, uh, completely away
from whatever message they
were trying to communicate.
And that's, um, if I'm-- look,
I found the, um, after we, you
know, were chatting about this
earlier, I found the-- one of
the, and also if it's still
around, I'll put it in the,
in the, um, in the show notes.
But I found-- it looks
like maybe Zendesk has
removed the post, but
someone screenshotted it.
So, but I fe- I s-
post
yeah, but I ha- so I've,
I've got the screenshot, so
it'll be in the show notes.
But, um, that's exactly what
other people had commented
on, that like, you know, as
you pointed out, some people
have complicated, you know,
associations with Mother's
Day, and it's just really--
uh yeah, it's just-- it
almost, it feels like either
someone was, um, you know,
who was ever putting this
campaign together, they
were trying to go really
bold with the naming the
alternative as, as you were
pointing out, but maybe didn't
have some of those filters
that you talked about
in your own, you know,
playbook of, of going bold.
so what advice or how,
you know, if you were
kind of coaching the
PMMs here, like how would
Yeah.
how would you help them--
how would you help redirect,
I guess, kind of the, the
Yeah.
they had?
I, I think if I were trying
to do the same launch
and I wanted to keep the
alternative, I think I
would try to keep that clear
alternative, but I would
totally change the tone and
message and do some like
playful self-deprecation.
So probably the way I
would do it is something
like, "Hey, this is Susan.
Everyone-- Uh, she runs
your customer success team.
Everyone loves Susan,
but Susan can't be
everywhere at once.
So when there isn't Susan,
there are a self-improving AI
agents to handle your, all of
your customers' needs." That's
the angle that I would take.
Like, I would actually
flip it and say, like lean
into the fact that people
like talking to humans and
you just name the obvious
limitation that's there.
You've not attacked-- I would
leave the mothers out of this
Yeah.
one, that's a good rule of
thumb in general of marketing
unless you're-- Yeah, is
don't, don't, don't bring
people's moms into it.
And I think I would, I
would change the whole tone
where it's still like it
could be charming and still
name that alternative, and
even elevate your customers
'cause they're like, "Oh
yeah, I see myself in Susan."
Like I've-- like I-- for
us, our Susan is Sarah.
Our customers
freaking love Sarah.
Uh, like
Right
I'm not trying-- I, I
think Zendesk could come
along and say, "We're not
trying to change that," but
Totally
Susan's one person.
When Susan's not
available, you have these
AI agents who can it
You know what I really
love about that idea, and
I hope Zendesk hears this
episode and takes this idea
and then pays us for it.
But
All right.
I … Right?
Yeah.
I need, I need a little,
little extra side stuff.
So what they should do to
just to, like, take, iterate
on your idea even further,
is to pick real customers
that they have who are,
like, really incredible at
their jobs, and then, like,
do full-on profiles, like,
about them featuring why
they're so good at their job.
You could have, like,
feedback or quotes from some
of their own peers.
You know what I mean?
So it's just like
a love shower
on
feature like 10
different customer
success people at zendesk.com,
zendesk.com/henry,
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes, yes.
And it could even be like,
"We're not kidding, like Susan
really is a bad A." Like look
at, like, and you could like
get like, I mean, of course
approved from the customer
and the customer's company,
but like you could like show
how, "Oh yeah, she's gotten 10
promotions in, you know, the
last 10 years of her career.
She's gotten this, this,
and that, and this award and
this achievement," and the,
you know, the, the proof
behind why she's so amazing.
Um, that way it becomes--
That way, now you have
something that like your
customers want to share.
So it'll help your
campaign about your
self-improving AI agents.
Not ne- I mean, I don't know
if it'd go viral, but it would
certainly be something that
would leave your customers
feeling, as you said, a
stronger attachment to.
And if we use more of your
playbook from earlier, you
talked about putting a face
behind some of these bold
claims that you're making,
and then people then build up
these loyalties to the person.
And so it's obviously
a bit different because
we're not using one person,
we're using lots of people
that are, uh, that's a
bit more personalized,
but then like their, their
audiences are gonna be
more loyal to that person
Oh, 100%.
you know,
Well, I can picture the
comments section too, like
yeah, when they launch
it and like everyone from
that company is like,
"Oh, Suzy, we love her."
Yes, exactly.
I'm not surprised at all.
She's amazing.
Yeah,
Yeah.
All right, Zendesk,
Yeah.
your move.
Yeah, I know.
Yeah, exactly.
Uh, my Venmo is like
Uh
just kidding.
Just kidding.
Okay, seriously though, um,
Zendesk, we have some really
good ideas for you, so please
let us know what you think.
Yeah, I would love it
if, if Zendesk PMM…
Sorry for the harsh words
earlier, if you hear this.
I know.
You guys, you guys had your
own backlash I, I think from
the, the comment section.
Well, I, I think it
was well-intended.
I don't think the, intention
was to be, you know,
No, I think that, I
mean, again, to like the
what was good about it
is the copy was clear.
It was lo- like
self-improving AI agents
is understandable enough,
at least in my opinion.
And then like they had
very like colloquial copy.
They were trying to be bold.
Like I get all that.
Totally.
Yeah.
Um, it's okay.
There's opportunity to
correct, and we just gave
you a really golden idea,
so I hope you go with
it and pay us for it.
Um, all right.
So Collin, one thing that
I like to make, um, space
for on this podcast is a
moment of gratitude because
as product marketers,
we never get to where we
are in our careers alone.
We're always learning and
growing and building off of
one another, and frankly,
we're all better for it.
Um, so before we wrap up, I
just want to say a genuine
thank you for coming on
the show and sharing your
insights and all the effort
and work that you put into
prepping for this episode.
Um, I really appreciate it,
and so does the PMM
community, so yeah.
Thank you.
fun
Yeah, and in turn, I would
love to hear some shout-outs
from your perspective
of some amazing PMMs who
have shaped the awesome
PMM that you are today.
So let's hear it.
Who are, who are the
shout-outs going to?
Okay, a couple stand out.
One is the godfather
of PMM, Jason Oakley.
Uh, Jason has, from like
my most baby days as a PMM,
just been very consistently
supportive and available
and extended resources
over and over again.
So Jason, you're the man.
Thank you.
He actually helped me get
this job at Civil even.
So like there's just--
Someone reached out
to him saying, "Hey,
we're looking for a h- a
PMM," and Jason referred me.
So I literally would not be
here if it were not for Jason.
Oh, so good
And then another one that
stands out is Julien Sauvage.
Uh, he's CMO at Cordial
now, but came out through
product marketing.
Again, someone who's just been
very, uh, available, just like
been, been someone I could
call and ask questions about
my career and process stuff
with and just is a really good
dude.
And then, a-- Tamara
Grzyminski is in
that lineup too.
Shout out to Tamara.
And then my friend Eric
Holland, who I, I te-
Eric Holland of We're
Not Marketers fame.
I text-- He and I text
like almost daily.
So we've just become
real, like real supports.
Like he's given me a lot
of courage to be very bold.
I bounced the, the whole April
Fools D- April Fool's Day
idea, I bounced off of Eric.
So, um, shout out to Eric too
Oh, I love that.
You've got a team of like
mentors and peers who are,
who have not only shaped who
you are, but are continue
to shape who you are and
where you're going as a PMM,
so, so grateful for that.
They are good people
too, by the way.
All of them, by the way,
have gotten shout-outs
on the show before.
So if that do-
if that… No, no, but like,
if that doesn't tell you how
awesome they are, I love it.
Um, all right.
Seriously, though, thank
you, Collin, so much.
This was such a
great conversation.
Thanks, Al. Appreciate it
Yeah, and hey, PMM listeners,
if you like this episode,
please share it with a PMM
friend, and I'd be so grateful
if you would leave a review.
It helps tremendously
with our reach.
Thank you so much
for coming on this
adventure with us today.
I hope this episode leaves
you with inspiration to
take in the next step
of your own journey.