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Dr Ali Abdaal is the world’s most followed productivity expert and author of Feel-Good Productivity, the brand new book that reveals why the secret to productivity isn’t discipline, it’s joy. In his podcast, Deep Dive, Ali sits down with inspiring creators, thinkers, entrepreneurs and high performers to help listeners build lives that they love.
Ali’s cheerful style, positive approach, and well-researched content have made him a trusted voice when it comes to productivity. The internet means that we have access to more knowledge and information than ever before - but it can also be overwhelming. So, Ali and his expert guests focus on simple, scientifically proven, and actionable steps you can take to make real changes in your life.
Ali’s a firm believer that happiness isn’t the result of success - in fact, happiness is the key to success in the first place. Ali made this discovery while working as a doctor in a chaotic hospital ward. In the past, hard work had been the answer to every obstacle in his life. But no amount of hard work was going to combat panic and burnout.
So, Ali dedicated himself to figuring out a new approach to productivity - one that focuses on enjoying the journey and working towards truly meaningful goals. Deep Dive, with its authentic and engaging conversations, will give you all the insights you need to do just that.
So you did it. We talked 3 years ago, and now it's real. Well, the book is great, and I think it's gonna crush. Fingers crossed, but
Ali Abdaal:that's not a thing I can control. So Yes. I'm not gonna think too hard about it.
Ryan Holiday:But it already did crush. The way to think about it is that it already did crush and that To
Ali Abdaal:what extent do you enjoy writing?
Ryan Holiday:I enjoy it. Showing up, and then I enjoy finishing. At the end of the writing day, I feel good.
Ali Abdaal:All of this stuff comes back down to the process. About.
Ryan Holiday:Yes. I said this thing once. Maybe you agree with it, but it's like amateurs are obsessed with tools. People will go like, what kind of, pen do you journal with? Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:It. Like, this fucking matters at all. Right? Pick a fucking system and stick with that system. I think it's not quite sufficient to just say trust the process it.
Ryan Holiday:Because it's hard to trust a process that you have not been through. There's an expression I like that says painters like painting, writers like having written.
Ali Abdaal:About. Oh, nice.
Ryan Holiday:And then you start the next one. So you did it. About it. We talked 3 years ago, and now it's real.
Ali Abdaal:We talked 3 years ago. We talked on the 7th October 2023, which was like a year 3 years and a week ago.
Speaker 3:About That's nuts. And I was saying
Ali Abdaal:to you in that interview that, like, hey, Ryan. You know, I've just started writing my 1st book. Any tips?
Speaker 3:Mhmm. And you
Ali Abdaal:gave some really good advice.
Speaker 3:About it. Yeah. And What did I say?
Ali Abdaal:Do you remember? You said you said so much stuff. You said, the importance of structure Okay. The importance of having your materials assembled and kind of knowing what you want to say before you begin to write.
Ryan Holiday:Sure.
Ali Abdaal:And the analogy you used was like, you're like, well, you know, it would be weird if you decided to settle from New York and trying to get to San Francisco, but you were just like, you know what? I'm just gonna walk and I'm just gonna figure it out along the way. You would, you know, it would be sensible to have a map.
Ryan Holiday:About. Although, even I I would say what actual the problem is people don't even know they're trying to head towards San Francisco. Right? They just know they're trying to get somewhere. It.
Ryan Holiday:Figuring out where you're trying to go as you're as you're doing it, it's a bad idea.
Ali Abdaal:That was that was a big part of my problem in that. Like, the destination changed radically, like, every year in a 3 year process.
Ryan Holiday:About work. Yeah. Well, you do you do the more the problem is you're trying to figure out when you're work when you're starting a book, you're trying to figure out
Speaker 3:about it. The end result.
Ryan Holiday:Mhmm. But you haven't done all the thinking required to know the end result.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Ali Abdaal:This is why I think, like, the proposal was a bit of a scam. Because the proposal, when I look at compare the proposal to the final result, there's, like, almost nothing in there that that's, like, the same beyond what it is.
Ryan Holiday:A this plan. Very few businesses resemble the business plan. But there's an Eisenhower quote. He says, plans are worthless, but planning is everything.
Speaker 3:About it.
Ryan Holiday:And so I think it's actually similar there in that if you don't do a this is why, actually, I think most self published books don't work. About it. It's that because there's no forcing function required to get approval to start. Mhmm. There's no deadline.
Speaker 3:About it. There's no constraints
Ryan Holiday:as to how long it can be, what it can look like. You can basically do whatever you want, which you would think would be an artistic about it. Sort of creative dream, but it's actually, like, potentially a death sentence.
Ali Abdaal:How do so how how do you think about this balance? Because, like, you've You've already made it. You can do whatever you want, etcetera, etcetera, and yet you still write books on seemingly on a deadline because they come up fairly frequently. Yeah. Like, how do how do you balance these?
Ryan Holiday:About it. Well, I do balance it. So I sold this 4 book series on the cardinal virtues. So I've done 2. And then
Speaker 3:I finished
Ryan Holiday:the 3rd, and then I pushed it a year. It. So it's done. I'm taking more time to do it. It's it's now, like, in in in the the deadlines or the the releases the summer of next year.
Ryan Holiday:About it. But, it there's attention. So on discipline, I felt like pushing it, it. And it was actually the right thing to push through, and the deadline forced me to get serious about it and do it right. And then on this book, about.
Ryan Holiday:I was actually more or less ahead of schedule and doing great. But then I decided for just family and lifestyle reasons to push it a year. About it. So am I pushing it a year because I'm being lazy? Or am I pushing it because I want more time to do it well?
Ryan Holiday:Or I want it to fit more about it. In a more balanced way into my life, you know. So I think, I tend I function well with deadlines. I function well with this sort of day to day ness of it. About it.
Ryan Holiday:And I think, again, people people think that the perk of success is being able to do whatever you want. And weirdly, it. You actually find that once you can do whatever you want, you need to self impose constraints and boundaries it. If you wanna keep doing it well and in a balanced way.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I found that when
Ali Abdaal:the pandemic hit, and that was when I took, it. You know, took time out of full time medicine for the 1st time.
Ryan Holiday:Suddenly, my
Ali Abdaal:whole calendar was empty. Yeah. And I immediately realized that, uh-oh, like, I kinda need some constraints here. And And so I signed up, like, art lessons and singing lessons and piano lessons and stuff to give some structure to the day Yeah. And fit in the YouTube and then some of later some of the writing stuff around that.
Ali Abdaal:And I found that that was really nice, but it it it it always felt like a constant battle between kind of about structuring myself and scheduling things in versus following my energy and, like, oh, you know, today, I have a
Speaker 4:lot of energy. Therefore, I wanna film a video today versus Yeah.
Ali Abdaal:I don't really feel like it today,
Speaker 4:but, like, you know, I said I said I would
Ali Abdaal:do it every day, that whole thing.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. About It'd be wonderful if inspiration was sufficient, but it it usually isn't. And you have to build
Speaker 3:about it. A structure or a system,
Ryan Holiday:I think that's really important anyway.
Ali Abdaal:What is your, like, I guess, daily routine look like? What's what's the structure you've built around your?
Ryan Holiday:About it. I usually try to get up I'll give you an example though. I try to get up early. I try to take my kids for a walk. That's like the beginning of what we do.
Ryan Holiday:And this morning, we got up. I got up early and made their lunches. I, just sort of having quiet time in the morning. And then my son got up, and about it. He got really into Legos.
Ryan Holiday:And it was also cold. And so I was like, do I wanna rip him out of this thing that I'm all that's also good, that's also
Speaker 3:about it. I'm trying to encourage to have
Ryan Holiday:a fight over a thing that might spoil him on wanting to do the thing in future times.
Speaker 3:About it. I'm a say no.
Ryan Holiday:So I sort of ripped up the playbook. And then I made them breakfast, and then I was taking a shower. And then, about it. Literally, as I'm getting in the shower, they wanted to go on a walk. Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:And so we ended up doing like, we just sort of so I I guess, about it. In the 48 laws of power, the final law, which I think a lot of people miss, is assumed formlessness. So there's all these laws about do this, don't do this, do this, don't do this.
Speaker 3:About it. But the last law is a kind
Ryan Holiday:of a strategic flexibility. And so to answer your question earlier about how I think about this stuff, I I have found as I've gotten about older and more successful that the rigidity that served me well early on has had to give way about into a kind of flexibility. Now there's always a tension or a a concern. Is that is that about it. Flexibility actually just complacency or laziness.
Ryan Holiday:And I have to question each time, why what is my motivation here? About it. But but that rigidity has to become flexibility. Or, 1, you suck all the fun out of it. About it.
Ryan Holiday:And 2, it's not sustainable over a long period of time, and it's not it's very susceptible to being it. Disrupted or blown apart by the complexity of life. So I'm I'm less I have less of a routine, about it. And I have more practices that I try to do consistently. Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:And I move them around depending on what's happening.
Ali Abdaal:What are some of those practices?
Speaker 3:About it. Well, I try to get up early. I try
Ryan Holiday:to walk. I try to do some form of hard exercise every day.
Speaker 3:About it. I try to
Ryan Holiday:not eat until like, I try to have kind of a fasting window. About And then I try to I try to do writing
Speaker 3:before I
Ryan Holiday:do other things. Okay. So, like, I about I'm flexible on a lot of stuff, but I don't write at 3 in the afternoon because that's not conducive to doing it well. So so just you kinda know what about it. It's more of a an intuition or a gut feel as opposed to when I was younger.
Ryan Holiday:It was like it was almost it was almost a form of OCD. Like, it has to happen at this time. If it doesn't happen at this time, then there is distress.
Speaker 3:And and that distress about
Ryan Holiday:You're almost doing the tasks to avoid the distress, which is not a good way to live.
Ali Abdaal:And how did having kids change your relationship with work?
Speaker 3:About it. What just blows your whole life up? Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:In a good way, but it blows your whole life up. I remember this New York Times reporter was doing this piece on me right as my son was being born. And she She asked me, like, how do you think, you know, like, having kids is gonna change your routine? And I said something like, I don't think it'll change it at all. And which was, of course, preposterous
Speaker 3:about And, and,
Ryan Holiday:very naive. But, it's just totally blown it apart. But it gives you important stuff that you center about your life around. So, like, I think people are concerned that, like, having kids or getting married, it'll tie you down. It.
Ryan Holiday:And it does. Mhmm. It objectively does, but it ties you down to reality. Like, it tethers you to the earth. Mhmm.
Ryan Holiday:There are it. School starts at a time and it ends at a time. Like, there's nap time. There is eating time. There is about Activities that happen every week.
Ryan Holiday:You know, there's stuff. Right? And so it prevents you from making it all about you, about it. And it forces you to sort of have nonnegotiable things. I mean, I guess it doesn't force you.
Ryan Holiday:You could be a bad parent if you want. But If you want your kids to not be a nightmare and you realize, like, routine is very important, structures are very important. But then also, rigidity is, you know, about Impossible. There's, Lin Manuel Miranda was talking about how he it. Had a kid right as Hamilton blew up.
Ryan Holiday:And so he would do the play, it. And then it's the hottest thing in the world. And so every night, celebrities attend, and then they come backstage, and they go, we're going here after. We're going here. I'm just getting invited.
Ryan Holiday:All this, like, incredible stuff. About. And he had to say no to all of it because he had to get home. He had to get home not just because he wanted to see his kid,
Speaker 3:about it. But, he
Ryan Holiday:knew that his sleep was already a precarious touch and go thing because he has an infant in his house. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:So if
Ryan Holiday:he stays out till, like, 2 in the morning, about it. And then he gets home and he's woken up 5 times in the middle of the night or whatever. He's just not gonna be able to perform the night before the the next night. It. And so his point was that having a kid actually saved him from spinning off the planet from this kind of stratospheric it.
Ryan Holiday:Success that he has. And I I have found that for sure. That, like again, we think these things are gonna be baggage. It. It's more like ballast.
Ryan Holiday:Like, it balances you out, in a way that thinking, hey, I'm totally unencumbered. I can do whatever I want. I can about it. Fully enjoy all the fruits of all the cool stuff that's happening. You think that's what you want, but it's kind of a recipe for disaster.
Ali Abdaal:Oh, Okay. That's so interesting to hear because I guess I've been I've been feeling a bit burnt out from, you know, the whole, like, rush to finish the book and then all of the batch filming podcasts and YouTube videos and the audiobook then and then, like, all of this book promo stuff that it is apparently sensible to do and all all this kind of thing. Yeah. About. And the conclusion I came to a few days ago, like, was,
Speaker 3:screw it.
Ali Abdaal:I just want an empty calendar, a fully empty calendar. Yeah. And I guess about it. I'm sure if I experience that for a few weeks, I'd be like, actually, I probably want a bit more structured
Ryan Holiday:on that. I you want an empty calendar of the stuff that you about it. You want it emptied of the stuff that you don't want to do. Mhmm. So, like, when I have an empty calendar, that means I have as much time as I want to write about it.
Ryan Holiday:As much time as I want to spend time with my family.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Ryan Holiday:What I haven't scheduled is interruptions from those things, about it. Even if those things are fun or interesting or whatever.
Speaker 3:Nice.
Ryan Holiday:By the way, I was reading your your bio. It it does you it does you no justice. It says about it. 4,500,000 YouTube subscribers, and it says over 93,000,000 total views. Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:But it's way more than that.
Ali Abdaal:Yeah. Yeah. It's like 4.8, 4.9 now.
Ryan Holiday:No. No. No. You've done, like, hundreds of millions of YouTube views. Have we?
Ali Abdaal:Yeah. Oh, I don't even look at that number. But You don't? No. Really?
Ali Abdaal:About. I made it a point early in the journey. I think, thanks to all the stoicism Kool Aid that I was drinking to only focus on the things that were within my control
Ryan Holiday:Okay.
Ali Abdaal:About, to the point that I almost never look at analytics. And the only thing I can I even vaguely keep track of is like, oh oh, yeah? I mean, I was watching one of my own
Ryan Holiday:about it. It matters less.
Ali Abdaal:And I can see it in YouTube Studio if I go on and and and stuff, and I'll occasionally do that just to look
Speaker 4:at comments and and and things, but
Ali Abdaal:it. I don't know. I really try like, the the more the more I look at the numbers, the less happy I am with the creative output.
Ryan Holiday:About. Well, so so tell me why stoicism taught you not to look at how your YouTube videos are doing them. That's very interesting to me.
Ali Abdaal:About. I realized that when I would look at how my YouTube videos were doing, in the back of my mind, there would always be that sense of You know the whole, like, dichotomy of control thing? Mhmm. Sort of like number of views on a YouTube video is sort of in the in the intersection where it's partly in my control, but partly outside of my control. About it.
Ali Abdaal:And I knew that if I like, looking at those, I I wasn't able to look at them purely dispassionately, and I would always get a sense, oh, that that one did it so well. Sure. That one did. Oh, that one didn't. And I found that you know, if I if I keep a general eye on the a trend of, sort of a period of several months.
Ali Abdaal:That gives me all the data I need to be like, oh, that sort of topic is really resonating with the audience. That sort of video got, like, a 1,000 comments compared to 300. That helps me figure out, okay. Maybe what like, I should do more of this and less of that. Yeah.
Ali Abdaal:But I try not to take it too far because, you know, you get the whole audience capture thing where you become a caricature of, of the person that your audience initially initially enjoyed.
Speaker 3:About it. Yeah. And I fell I very much fell into this
Ali Abdaal:trap during the pandemic, actually. So the word productivity in my videos was, like, really taking off. Any video with the word productivity or productive in about. I was, like, immediately, like, doing super well. And so I was thinking, well, you know, this does really well.
Ali Abdaal:Let
Speaker 4:me just
Ali Abdaal:say every put productive in everything. My productive day in the life, my productive desk setup, about productive dating habits, my productive sleeping routine, and all this kind of stuff. And after after a few videos of it, like, people in the comments started to be like, okay. This is getting a bit much. And I started feeling icky about the content Sure.
Ali Abdaal:Because I was putting productive in it to try and get the views. Yeah. Because videos with the word productive in it were getting more views. About I don't know. Whenever I've I I I have this sort of weird relationship with numbers versus what's in my control.
Ryan Holiday:Well, it's it's interesting too because
Speaker 3:about it.
Ryan Holiday:It's somewhat in your control as you're making it. But then once it's out, it's done. Yeah. But that's when we spend the most time, like, about. Refresh it.
Ryan Holiday:Like, it we've you've you you flung it to the public. Yeah. You've put it out. And now about. You're like, well, do they like me?
Ryan Holiday:Do they like me? Do they like me? How much do they like me? Give me all the likes. Right?
Ryan Holiday:When about. If there was any time to think about how something was gonna do, it maybe could have been as you're making it. Right? But now that's over. So now you're really just about emoting about what you would like to happen, and the ship has sailed.
Ali Abdaal:Yeah. Man, that's so true. Like, the the way we do use analytics is in idea generation and titles and thumbnails. Yeah. And that's the thing, thankfully, one of my team members does because Yeah.
Ali Abdaal:I don't I I don't get joy out of trying to package up a video with the perfect title and thumbnail to make it clickbaity enough, but not so clickbaity that it feels clickbaity.
Ryan Holiday:Right.
Ali Abdaal:So I come up with a concept that, hey. I'd love to do a video about, I don't know, Ryan's new book. Yeah. And we were like, okay. Cool.
Ali Abdaal:We We can't call it discipline is destiny because that would be a bit weird. We okay. We've gotta find an angle of, like, the one habit that's changing your law, like, the discipline expert or, like, how do we you know, all that kind of stuff. About it. I outsourced that to the team.
Ali Abdaal:And then they tell me, okay. We've we've tested this with the audience. We think the best title is. This book made me more disciplined.
Speaker 4:And I'm like, great.
Ali Abdaal:I can make a video based on that title. Sure.
Speaker 3:About it.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. And it's also it's not just one of the ways I've found it to be dangerous is actually when it works. About it. So, I don't know. An article comes out about you and it's positive, or a video comes out and it's doing well, about it.
Ryan Holiday:Your book is out. Whatever. You're doing the thing. And then you lose you lose a day or more than a day just kind of skiing in it. You're just like refreshing and watching.
Ryan Holiday:Like so it's not even like you're torturing yourself, you feel crappy that nobody likes you. About it. But your it's like your reward for succeeding is a loss in productivity because you're just
Speaker 3:about it. Soaking in this thing that's really not in
Ryan Holiday:your control that if it had gone the other way, you would be about it. Trying to work your mind around not taking it seriously.
Speaker 3:Do you know what
Ryan Holiday:I mean? Yeah. You'd be like, that's not why I made it. What matters is that I like it. What matters is how it does in the long term.
Ryan Holiday:You'd be trying to think through logically why you shouldn't be devastated by this bad news. Mhmm. But then when the positive happens, it. You don't do any of that. Yep.
Ryan Holiday:And you just you just kind of sit there and soak it in. And really, the punishment though is that you're not about it. Spending your energy where it matters or where it makes a difference, which is, like, making the next thing, or just taking the day off. Like, If you're gonna waste a day, go waste a day. Don't waste a day refreshing your Twitter feed.
Speaker 4:About. I think it's that, like, Zen proverb
Ali Abdaal:or something, which is, you know, before enlightenment, after enlightenment. Yeah. Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. Sure.
Ali Abdaal:It. And I I often think of that when it comes to videos, and I I also suspect with the book because I think currently I have an unhealthy attachment to the New York Times bestseller list as as a lot of writers do. About. But I just really try and remind myself of whether or not the video does well, you know, learn stuff, write about it, make a video. It's like, that's that's the thing.
Ali Abdaal:And it's, like, getting back to the process rather than thinking at all about the outcome.
Ryan Holiday:When you asked me about self publishing earlier, one, I've experienced this unintentionally and intentionally. About it. When The OSCO is the Way came out, I'd already sold the sequel. And so in one respect, that probably about it. Cost me a lot of money because the obstacles I did over the next year or 2 start to do really well.
Ryan Holiday:So if I had waited, I probably could've sold what became ego is the enemy about it. For a lot of money, a lot more money. And I was but I'd actually sold, like, a proposal version of it it. While I was still figuring the book out. Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:So I was under I I was still figuring doing the work of figuring the book out, but I was under contract. So I really didn't care that the book it. Kinda was doing okay, and then I really didn't care that much when it started to do well. Like, that right there is the the about it. The 1st time that book hit the bestseller list, which is 5 years after it came out.
Ryan Holiday:Oh, lovely. So I I not only written the next book, but I've written several more books. Like, I it. By having contracts for the next projects, I was just focused on doing the next projects, not on how each one did. And And then with this 4 book series, it's kind of in the same thing.
Ryan Holiday:Like, in 2019, I sold I basically locked myself in it. Till 2024, 2025. So basically, like, the next 4 or 5 years of my thing were locked in. So, again, the downside is, about it. Courage came out.
Ryan Holiday:It did okay. Discipline came out. It did spectacular. So maybe I could have been sell I could have sold justice for more. But, about it.
Ryan Holiday:All of that was irrelevant because I was just in the middle of writing the book. And I think it's better to be it. Chopping wood and carrying water, then going constantly renegotiating your rate for what you are gonna chop wood and carry water for. Yeah. Or whatever.
Ryan Holiday:Do you know what I mean? Like like to just have the next thing. So, you know, if your thing is I make a video every week, you about. Are already making the next video before one comes out. Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:Right? A comedian comes up with an hour, records the hour, about. Then there is time before that hour comes out, and it's in that interim period that they're already working on the next hour.
Speaker 3:Yeah. About
Ryan Holiday:it. So if the special comes out and it's a huge hit, they're working on the next hour. If the special comes out and it's not a huge hit, they're working on the next special. About it. And you wanna
Speaker 3:be in a rhythm like that
Ryan Holiday:because it insulates you from the thing that's not in your control, which is whether other people say you're amazing about. Or whether other people say you suck.
Ali Abdaal:Yeah. I feel like all of all of this stuff comes back down to comes back down to the process. About.
Speaker 3:And, you
Ali Abdaal:know, a big part of what we talk about in in that book is, you know, trying to find a way to make the process enjoyable and energizing. That. And, yeah, I find that when I have that in at the front of my mind when it comes to the videos or even even writing the book. You know? Like, there were periods in the book journey where it.
Ali Abdaal:I sort of forgot to enjoy the process Mhmm. Because the seriousness of writing a book was, like, weighing on me, and then I would read, like, I I don't know. One of your, like, your newsletter or one of your books or, like, drive by Dan Pink, and I'm like, oh, it's so good. This stuff is so good, and I'd be comparing it to my 1st draft and be like, why am I why is my writing so shit? And it would take my editor to remind me that, you know, Ali,
Speaker 4:the whole the whole message
Ali Abdaal:of the book is find a way to make it enjoyable and and energizing. So, you know?
Ryan Holiday:Well, it's hard if people say trust the process. Right? But it's hard to trust a process that you have not been through before. And so once you've done it one time, you have a sense of the full scope of the process or what you think is a full scope of the process. Then you do it again and again and again, and you start to go, oh, yeah.
Ryan Holiday:This is the part where you start to doubt yourself. This is the part where you get excited. But, about it. Like in Texas, we have this season. It's called false fall.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Ryan Holiday:So it's cool and awesome right here. It'll probably get hot again. Right? Like, about. We think we think the summer's finally broken, but there's actually, like, several more hot days coming.
Ryan Holiday:Projects are like that too. You think it. You're over the hump. You think you've done it, and then, oh, wait. No.
Ryan Holiday:It's gonna get hard again. But you you you start to get a sense of the rhythms about of it. And then you can trust the process. And then you can also enjoy the process because, you know, it's like the 1st time you go on a roller coaster, about. That specific roller coaster.
Ryan Holiday:You have no idea. Is this gonna be one of the ones where it's like this? Or is it gonna be the ones of you right? But then once you've done it before, about it. Then you have some you can kind of anticipate it, and you know when to hold on tight and when you can just go with it.
Ryan Holiday:Right? And you can kinda watch the other people that have never been on it before, about it. How much scary it is for them. And so I think it's it's it's not quite sufficient to just say trust the process because it's about It's hard to trust a process that you have not been through.
Ali Abdaal:Yeah. That's so true. I think, like so I I've I've realized this very, sort of about tangibly. Also, you know, I've made, like, 700 plus YouTube videos in my time. And I know that recording it always feels like a total shit show where I'm making so many mistakes, and there's so much, like, crap in it.
Ali Abdaal:Sure.
Speaker 3:But I've
Ali Abdaal:done it enough times. I know the final product's gonna be good because our our editor's amazing. Sure. I'm gonna chop out all the that. It will make it look amazing.
Ali Abdaal:But then when beginner YouTubers see the final result, and then they see themselves recording and suddenly they're spluttering and swearing all the time.
Speaker 3:And
Ali Abdaal:Yeah. It. You never see that raw uncut version of a YouTuber's 1st take. You only see the final product. And so now that I've been through the through the process once with the book, knowing how crap the 1st draft was and then seeing the magic of editing over several months to trim it down and make it good.
Ali Abdaal:I'm like, oh, okay. About. I don't mind so much about having a crappy 1st draft now.
Ryan Holiday:Well, yeah, you have your you have your crappy 1st draft. I actually have a shirt. It's there's a Hemingway quote, and he says, I have a print of it in my office. I have a shirt too. But he he says, you know, the 1st draft of Everything is Shit.
Ryan Holiday:And, the the conceit is that it's sort of showing how even that sentence Probably didn't write it perfectly the 1st time. But the idea when is that every every 1st draft sucks, And you wanna get comfortable with that. You have to get comfortable with the messiness of the the process. But weirdly, as you get better, about it. I do think your 1st drafts get less shitty or less wasteful.
Ryan Holiday:Right? So, like, you with your videos, And certainly I found this with my books is that there is less and less left over at the end because about it. You start to
Speaker 3:be able
Ryan Holiday:to shoot only what you know you're gonna use or you write less. About it. You go down less blind alleys as a writer or you you overwrite less. Because, again, you know about. You know what isn't gonna be possible, what's gonna be extraneous.
Ryan Holiday:You have a sense of what you actually need. About. Right? So you're trusting the process, but also you understand the process better. And so, yeah, when you're you you tend to be overdoing about it.
Ryan Holiday:Whatever it is you're doing the 1st time.
Ali Abdaal:Yep.
Ryan Holiday:And then one of the signs of mastery or, I guess, a a trait of mastery about. Is the conservation of energy. Like, you know when and what to apply any given moment. That. Whereas when you're just starting or you're doing it for the 1st time, there's a lot of just kind of sheer force of will and about it.
Ryan Holiday:Enthusiasm, which is important, but often inefficient. Yeah. About. Yeah. I imagine Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:A video 3 years ago, maybe you shot an hour of footage for a 10 minute video. About it. And hopefully now you could shoot 20 minutes of footage for a 10 minute video.
Ali Abdaal:Yeah. It is a little bit tighter now than it was before. It. But even, like, yes, especially on the writing front, initially, my my worry was I don't have enough material. And then after the 1st draft, find oh my god.
Ali Abdaal:I have way too much material. Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. You find I think writing becomes a process it. Much more of tightening as you go because you realize you just needed to get it all down, and then you're realizing, oh, I've said this twice now. And actually here it. Covers it over here so I can they cancel each other out or I can get rid of 1.
Ryan Holiday:So it's a it's a process of understand understanding that. So I have a question about productivity for you. Because I feel like people are with productivity. Mhmm. And I'm not always sure why.
Ryan Holiday:Like, I I said this thing once. Maybe you agree with it. But it's like about it. That amateurs are obsessed with tools. Right?
Ryan Holiday:Like, what's the best software to do this? Yeah. What is the best way you know? Like, people will go, like, what about it. What kind of, pen do you journal with?
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. Like, this fucking matters at all. Right? The the what what program do you write with? About it.
Ryan Holiday:And if I was to rank the things that contribute the most to what I do, tools are, like, not even in the top ten. Hard
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Ali Abdaal:Yeah. That was kinda I was, as you were saying that, I was thinking, yeah, the tool is maybe the about extra 1% left over at the end, potentially, if, like, writing in Scrivener is just a little bit nicer than writing in a Google Doc.
Speaker 3:Sure.
Ali Abdaal:But, like, about This is the thing. Like, as I've basically tried to read basically every productivity book on the market, and then some, it. It all fundamentally comes down to really the way to be productive is to figure out where you're trying to go, figure out what what habits and what daily slash weekly routines you need to get there, I'm just sitting down and doing the thing
Speaker 3:Yes.
Ali Abdaal:And then finding a way to make the thing fun so that you don't get distracted with other shit, and then just doing the thing for a long time.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. About.
Ali Abdaal:Yeah. And if having a slightly I mean, I have a really crappy pen that I stole from my brother now because my fountain pen ran out of ink. And it was such a nice fountain pen, but, like, I can write just as well with, like, crappy ballpoint. Yeah. About it.
Ali Abdaal:The the 1% tweaks. But it's so much more for it's it's it's almost like, you know, I'm I'm I'm trying to trying to get into fitness now. About.
Speaker 4:And I just love researching. You know, on running shoes, should I get
Ali Abdaal:this padding versus that padding? Been for a run maybe once in the last 6 months, but I love the idea of running gear because it's great procrastination from actually doing the thing, which is put on anything and just go for a run. Yes. Or, like, just go to the gym and do anything with progressive overload.
Ryan Holiday:About. Yeah. I'd say people are optimizing the thing they're not doing
Ali Abdaal:Yes.
Ryan Holiday:Which which is never gonna be the way to get there. About.
Ali Abdaal:That was a great, a great moment, that my my girlfriend called me out out on this the other day. You know, the whole, like, sauna, ice plunge, everyone in Austin seems to be doing it.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Ali Abdaal:I was saying to her, hey. You know, about. What if I join a gym and it's like, you
Speaker 4:know, depending on how busy the sauna is, like, you know, Huberman says, like, 4 times versus 5 times and, like, 24 minute protocol versus 12 minute protocol.
Ali Abdaal:And she was like, you've been to the sauna once in the last 6 months. Yeah. Let's let's just go to the sauna first, and then we can worry about optimizing it later. Sure. I was like, yeah.
Ryan Holiday:So true.
Ali Abdaal:About it. But, no, I think this obsession with productivity, it often feels productive to be reading productivity books ironically and researching the tools about as a distraction from just sitting down and doing the thing.
Ryan Holiday:Well, the irony that obsessing about productivity is
Speaker 3:about it. A form
Ryan Holiday:of procrastination. Mhmm. Right? It's giving you the the sense that you are about serious that your heart's in the right place, that you are trying or making progress, but in fact, you're not.
Speaker 3:About it.
Ryan Holiday:And you're avoiding the hard thing, which is doing the thing.
Ali Abdaal:Doing the thing. There is one aspect of, I think, about it. There's there there
Speaker 4:is one aspect of productivity that I
Ali Abdaal:think is valuable to obsess over, and that is kind of journaling prompts. And just ask asking yourself serious questions about why you're doing the thing that you think you want to do, where you're actually trying to go. I spend a lot of time, like, comparatively, about, like, thinking is the direction I'm currently going in actually the direction that I want to be going in?
Ryan Holiday:Sure.
Ali Abdaal:And I find that it. There's almost no amount of too much journaling that can that can happen there because, you know, in, like, an hour of journaling, I might land on 1 insight, which is about Which would if if it nudges my course even, like, 0.1%, that compounds over the long term.
Ryan Holiday:Well, yeah, I would say about it. Being intentional about what you're doing and then clear with yourself about why and what you are doing Mhmm. Is about Really important. Whereas, like, productivity a lot of productivity advice seems to me is, like, about it. Optimized optimizing for how you're gonna pack your suitcase or what your suitcase is is is or what brand it is or whatever, about.
Ryan Holiday:And you really haven't questioned why you're going, where you're going, or if you should be going there, if it's the right time to be going there. Any of the actually important questions that are gonna determine whether this thing is a success or not.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I think the other unfortunate thing is, you know, it.
Ali Abdaal:We we did a video recently that was something like, I read 107 productivity books. Here's what actually works. And all of it was basically, like, pick some goals, figure out the method. But it was, like, the the basic stuff. And then we made another video that was, like, 12 productivity tools I can't live without, and that video did so much better.
Ali Abdaal:And I'm like, oh. Yeah. That's so annoying that, like, the thing that had the meat versus the thing that had the candy, the candy performs better. Yes. And so about writ large.
Ali Abdaal:You know, the incentives are there for people who write or make videos or whatever about this stuff is to lean into the tools because the tools are the thing that, you know, is the candy that people want.
Ryan Holiday:About. Well, I don't even know if it's candy. It's just it's it's concrete. Right? So you can go, about.
Ryan Holiday:Here's this sort of ephemeral, you know, metaphysical question about why you're doing it, what success is, about it. You know, why does it matter? You're asking these big picture questions. And by the time you get to the end of it, there actually isn't an answer because it's about the question. About it.
Ryan Holiday:And that's a lot less clear than these are the 3 best pens. This is the number one about. Bit of software Yeah. Or here's a really interesting, complicated system that a successful person about Uses whose work you are a fan of.
Ali Abdaal:Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:Right? Like, one is very concrete and the other is about Essentially ineffable. Right? And so you naturally, especially at the early stages, about. One's much more digestible and understandable.
Speaker 3:Do you know
Ryan Holiday:what I mean? Like Yeah. It you're you're also about it. Contemplating questions that someone if they're a an aspiring high school insert, you know, about is not even gonna understand as a question.
Speaker 3:Do you
Ryan Holiday:know what I mean? Like like Tom Brady talking about whether, about You know, how much is enough or, you know, where to find deep motivation or whatever. That's about it. A lot for someone who's not even competed at an elite level to think about. About.
Ryan Holiday:So it's easier to start with, well, what do you have for breakfast? Mhmm. Right? Or, like, what about it. What kind of gloves do you wear?
Ryan Holiday:Do you know what I mean? Like, one is much more relatable and accessible, but ultimately much more inconsequential.
Speaker 3:About
Ali Abdaal:Yeah. I do I do find that there are some tools that, certainly, when I was more of a beginner in the space, helped about Develop the habit, which was the thing that actually mattered. So, for example, reading about, how different people do a weekly review
Ryan Holiday:Mhmm.
Ali Abdaal:Is quite helpful. And I, you know, I downloaded, like, the initially, the PDF template and then the Google Docs template, and now Notion templates are all the all the rage. But the point is about. The weekly review journaling prompt slash questions helped me actually do a weekly review. And a weekly review is just a very useful habit to figure out, like, about.
Ali Abdaal:How do I do this week? What what are my top 3 things I wanna do next week? Great. Let's just do those things. So there are there are there are some instances in which about a tool helps build the habit, which when where the habit is the thing that matters.
Ali Abdaal:Sure. But it's easy to take it too far. Like, I I find whenever I rewatch your video about your note note card a bad system. I know I'm just procrastinating because the thing you actually do is is you write every day. But I'm all like, even in the car on the way here, I was like, you know, about.
Ali Abdaal:What if I had an analog note card system? And then I'm like, no, but I'm traveling. It's like, oh, well, I get dang it. Like, let me look at the Zettelkasten system or let me find another app. And It's so easy for the mind to go in the in those directions because, like, Brian Holliday has a note card system.
Ryan Holiday:I also find it's like, you know, like, people who believe 1 conspiracy theory tend to about it. Believe all the conspiracy theories.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:Right? Even though it actually becomes less likely that they're all true. Right? Like, it's like if you bit 1 and that's your thing, maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. But if you believe all of them simultaneously, they contradict each other, so it doesn't really work.
Ryan Holiday:Right? But it's like I tend to find people who are really into productivity systems. The problem isn't that, you know, about That this system is not as good as this system. It's that they're missing the point that a lot of it is a placebo, which is like about it. Pick a fucking system and stick with that system.
Ryan Holiday:That's the hat like, you're supposed to pick a thing and then that's your thing.
Speaker 3:About it. Right. And then you
Ryan Holiday:stop thinking about it. Yeah. The problem is they're like, first, they're over here, and then they hear this one's a little bit better, and then they switch. About it. So it's actually it's not the system that's the problem.
Ryan Holiday:It's not the tools that that's actually the amateur quality. The amateur quality is the about Constantly moving and abandoning, moving and abandoning, because that's what's profoundly inefficient. Right? Like like, you've you've found the system and it was working for like,
Speaker 3:about it. I know, actually, at this point,
Ryan Holiday:there's probably something better than the note card system. But is it transformatively better? Probably not. About it. Right?
Ryan Holiday:So am I going to uproot the thing that I'm comfortable with, that works for me, that my old stuff is in about For something that's 9% better. Like, if I'm if I want a 9% productivity increase, that's pretty easy to find. You know what I mean? About. As opposed to relearning how I do everything.
Ryan Holiday:So,
Ali Abdaal:back in the day, I used I used to be a a close-up magician, and I would perform at, like, balls and parties at university and stuff. About. And there was a a phrase that was often, you know, in the in the world of magic. The the amateur magician is is the person who performs a 100 tricks about to, you know, the amateur magician is the person who put who performs a 100 tricks to the same audience, whereas the professional magician is the one who performs the same tricks about to a 100 different audiences Yes. Or what's that effect.
Ryan Holiday:And Sure.
Ali Abdaal:In the world of magic as well, there was this constant thing constant, like, battle between you know, on the forums, There are the professionals who are actually doing the thing, and then there are all the amateurs being like, what are the best tricks?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And the professionals are
Ali Abdaal:like, it doesn't matter. Just pick about. 3 to 6 of them and just do them at nauseam, and you will guarantee to be a professional magician. And the amateurs are like, oh, but, like, I've got $1,000. I wanna spend it on, like, this trick versus that trick versus that trick.
Ali Abdaal:It it doesn't matter. Just pick a few and just stick with them and do them repeatedly over a long enough time, and that is how you get good at the thing. About but that's a lot less sexy sounding advice than this one this one trick will change your life.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. Like, I've been to conferences that have changed my life, but I'm always interested about it. When I notice people are going to lots of that. Like, the chances that every single one is gonna have that same effect is very low. Right?
Ryan Holiday:And so it's like you should about it. You beat the casino, leave. You know what I mean? Like, there's this tendency to sort of chase about more and more when you've already gotten most of the gains.
Ali Abdaal:I had some, I've got some friends who who attended, like, a sort of 85,000 dollar, a mastermind week long retreat type thing. Yeah. And after day 1, they were like, damn. We know what we have to do. Yeah.
Ali Abdaal:We kind of wanna leave and just do it, but, like, we We've paid $85,000, so we've got a kind of stay for the next 5 days knowing full well that, like, all of this is going straight over their head because they just know what they got the one thing. And then you need to execute on the one thing. And then 2 years later, maybe the thing number 2 or 3 will become relevant. Yes. But by then you've forgotten about it, and you'll need to go to another event.
Ryan Holiday:About it. So so back to procrastination, my one of my favorite quotes from Senegalese, he says, the one thing all fools have in common is that they're always getting ready to start. About it. Right? So, like, they're gonna do it tomorrow or they're gonna do it later.
Ryan Holiday:They're gonna do it once they get all the the materials or tools that they needed.
Speaker 3:About it. So I did give you the advice that to to
Ryan Holiday:start a book, you wanna do all your research first, which is true. And yet, really, the important thing is that at some point, you start doing about yeah. Right? And because it can go on forever to sort of preparing and analyzing and gathering and, you know, about. I just need this other thing first.
Ryan Holiday:I just but really what you need to be doing is the thing.
Ali Abdaal:About yeah. It it always just comes down to this. It comes comes back back to this. And I've I I don't know if you've played around with this, but I've I've very much with so many different ways of doing the thing. Some you know, when it comes to videos, for example, some day some some weeks, I'm like, okay.
Ali Abdaal:The The way I'm gonna keep doing the thing is I'm just gonna make a video every single day.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. And then
Ali Abdaal:I'll do that for a bit. And then I'll be like, oh, okay. But that's, like, too rigid. And I was like, oh, more flexibility. It's like, okay.
Ali Abdaal:Cool. Tim Ferriss's batching is good, so I'm gonna batch it. And Thursdays are gonna be my filming day. And it's like, I'll do that for a bit. And I'll be like, no.
Ali Abdaal:But, like, I missed that Thursday. And then I'll be like, you know, Tim Ferriss said batching
Speaker 4:is good. So why don't I batch in a whole week and film 15 videos in that week, and then I can chill for 6 weeks.
Ali Abdaal:And then this was supposed to be a batch filming week in Austin, and I felt nothing because I was like, I'm I'm I'm actually not feeling it. About. So there's almost this constant search, at least in my life, for, like, this magical, about consistent system that will cover me a 100% of the time. Thankfully, we have shooting, like, 2 videos a week for the last 6 years. So it's like, it's not hopefully, you're not gonna take too much away from actually actually doing the thing.
Ali Abdaal:But But I wonder for you, like, you've been doing this a lot, the the this sort of stuff a lot longer than I have. How how how often has your system for doing the thing actually changed?
Ryan Holiday:About it. Well, I do a a handful of different things. Right? So like but the main thing, and And I think this is important. You have to know what your main thing is.
Ryan Holiday:Yep. Right? Because we live in a world where there's all these other kind of supporting thing. They're necessary. Yep.
Ryan Holiday:About. Not absolutely necessary, but I think they're important. And but still you have to know what the main driver of everything is. And so for me, that's writing. About it.
Ryan Holiday:Like, writing the books is the main thing that the other things are supporting the writing of the books. Yeah. And the writing of the books is creating the ideas
Speaker 3:about it. And the platform and
Ryan Holiday:the brand and all the that make the other things necessary to begin with. So
Speaker 3:about it. The writing
Ryan Holiday:routine is essentially unchanged. There's little tweaks here and there. But the main thing is, like, just sitting down and about doing that thing. And it's not a thing that can be outsourced. It's not a thing that can be batched.
Ryan Holiday:It's the day to day ness of about it. Doing it on a consistent basis.
Ali Abdaal:To what extent do you enjoy writing?
Ryan Holiday:Well, there's an expression I like that about it. Says, painters like painting. Writers like having written. So at the end of the writing day,
Speaker 3:about it. I feel good. Do I feel good
Ryan Holiday:the entire time? Not always. Sometimes when it's fucking working, it's nothing better. Yep. But if you
Speaker 3:about it. That's the only thing that
Ryan Holiday:fuels you. You're gonna you're not gonna be in a good spot. Because some days, some of the most important things come
Speaker 3:about it. One sentence in the midst of
Ryan Holiday:2 otherwise unproductive pointless hours, you know? So I enjoy about Showing up and then I enjoy finishing. Mhmm. And sometimes that middle period can be torturous.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. About it.
Ryan Holiday:So I was gonna ask you that. Like, when you say feel good productivity, does it actually have to feel good? There there's one school of thought that. That says it's all about finding the torture that you can tolerate. Mhmm.
Ryan Holiday:And it's actually the ability to about Put up with the grind of it that separates kind of the winners from the losers.
Speaker 4:Yeah. That's the thing.
Ali Abdaal:So I think it about. My my thesis in the book is that it doesn't have to feel good, but it is generally more energizing when it does. Generally, like, positive emotions feel feel energy, feel creativity, feel, like, reduced stressed, all all that all that fun stuff. It. And so the question that the question that led to the book in the 1st place was, you know, when I was trying to juggle about working full time as a doctor and also building the YouTube channel and the business on the side.
Ali Abdaal:It just felt like about a huge amount of grind in the day job and then a huge amount of grind afterwards to do the videos. And it seemed like you know, everyone talks about how, you know, journey before destination, and about. I realized that I wasn't enjoying my day to day because of this sort of grind approach. And so I tried to find any tweak that I could to make it feel just a little bit better. And that's not to say that it was fun all the time or that it objectively felt good all the time, but I found a series of strategies that meant about that.
Ali Abdaal:Almost anything I could make feel even just a bit better. And if it felt a bit better, it generates more energy, and it meant I had more energy at the end of the day to give to my about my other hobbies and friends and family and stuff, and it also made me more productive. So I think it's like you know, when it comes to writing, for example, there are some some basic things that I found was you know, the 1st chapter in the book is about play and about trying to approach things in the spirit of play. Now play, you know, a lot of people have talked about how it. Comes about as a result of, often a result of the stakes being lower.
Ali Abdaal:So, like, Roger Federer probably isn't feeling play when he's in the Wimbledon fight final because the stakes are too high. And I found that, for example, with with with with writing the book, when I when I was thinking about the stakes being high, like, this is my 1st book and it's traditionally published it. It's a big deal. That will suck the joy out of it. Yeah.
Ali Abdaal:Whereas when I try to lower the stakes to be like,
Speaker 4:oh, it's okay. I'm just writing because
Ali Abdaal:I enjoy it, and the goal is for me to write a book I'm proud of, about. Suddenly, it became more enjoyable. So it's the same thing, but, like, just a different framing that makes it feel like
Ryan Holiday:The problem is you're not in the Wimbledon finals, but you're about. Fooling yourself into thinking you are. That's where ego comes in and, anxiety comes in. You're just you're just like, you're making it much more than it is.
Speaker 3:About it. Yeah. And then you're
Ryan Holiday:actually ironically making yourself worse at it.
Ali Abdaal:Yes. Exactly. You know, the other big one is, you know, the idea of power. So we talked about talk about talk about in chapter 2. Play power and people are like the 3 main energizers that I found, if you about shoot Horn a bit.
Ali Abdaal:And this idea that, we get to choose what we're doing. Like, about It's you could be doing the same thing, but if you think of it as I have to do this versus I choose to do this, makes a huge difference to how we personally feel about the thing. I I I really found this a lot when I was when I was working in medicine where, you know, there was one day where, I I'd I'd finished the end of, like, a 13 hour shift, and I was just about to go home to be like, yes. I'm gonna go home. And then the nurse was like, hey, Ali.
Ali Abdaal:Can you put a an IV or cannula in this lady in before or whatever it was? About. And I was like, oh, shit. Like, this is gonna be another half an hour job. It's like the nurses tried, and she couldn't do it, and so this is gonna be really hard.
Ali Abdaal:I was just about to go home in 13 freaking hours. I haven't eaten. And then I overheard that some other patient talking about like, oh, it's so nice being in hospital. The doctor's been so nice to me and things. I kind of realized that I've been falling into that trap of thinking I have to do this thing.
Ali Abdaal:And I think Seth Godin has a blog post about this that I remembered at the time, which was you can just reframe that to I get to do the thing. Sure. So I was like, about it. I get to do this cannula. I get to make this person's morning sickness better so that, you know, her baby's better and that she's better because I was working on on OB GYN.
Ali Abdaal:About. And it was just like this huge wave of relief that came over me purely as a result of a simple mindset shift of, like, have to becomes about get to.
Ryan Holiday:Well, also, I think one of the things I have to that I is is like important things are hard. Right? And so, about it. If you are good at something, if you have some sort of calling, you're about. Support like like, I I I feel like each of us has kind of a unique potential or we get sort of certain opportunities.
Speaker 4:It.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. And with those opportunities comes a kind of an obligation. So, like, when I hear about someone who about it. Is really talented and really good. And then I get the sense that they're just kind of half assing it or they're stuck or whatever.
Ryan Holiday:Judgmental, but I'd find it to be sad. Mhmm. You know? Like, what do you mean you only wrote 1 book in 10 years? Like, about it.
Ryan Holiday:You're not Robert Caro. You're not like you're not you weren't slaving away on some amazing masterpiece. You were just ill disciplined, and it. You took the obligations that I think your talent came with. You took about You didn't take them seriously.
Ryan Holiday:So I agree, you should mostly be doing what you wanna do. But I also think there's something kind about it. But, maybe only partially fulfill their potential.
Speaker 3:About it.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I was gonna ask you about this. So you said earlier that you know, do
Ali Abdaal:you sometimes ask yourself, am I pushing this book out of laziness or complacency versus, like, out of a genuine need for balance or something like that. And I was kinda thinking in my mind, like, why does it matter? Like, why why does it matter to you if you're being lay lazy or complacent? And any written like a book a year for the last, like, 10 years or something of such like that.
Speaker 3:Like, do
Ryan Holiday:you guys at this point? Like, you have I I would Argue that we sort of have a higher self and a lower self. Mhmm. Right? And, you know, the lower self says, just like eat whatever you want, about it.
Ryan Holiday:Work only when you want. I don't know. Say whatever you want. Don't think about consequent like, there there's this about it. The sort of immediate gratification, sort of short term impul impulses that we all have, right, that about it.
Ryan Holiday:If indulged repeatedly tend to get us in a place that we actually don't wanna be. Right? The person, they don't have any friends because they about it. Say mean things. Right?
Ryan Holiday:They're they feel gross. They look gross. They're not in good health because they don't take good care of themselves. About it. You know, they look back and they go, oh, I wish, you know, I wish that hadn't take like, if I'd gotten serious about that earlier, I'd have been done sooner.
Ryan Holiday:It would have about Could've done more, could've helped more people, whatever. Right? Yeah. So so there's this kind of tension between, like, our higher self and the lower self. Steven Pressfield says in between is the resistance.
Ryan Holiday:Right? And so to me, the question is is is whether I'm am I about Am I doing this because it's the well adjusted, mature, responsible, you know, right thing to do, or am I just doing it because about The other thing is harder. You know what I mean? Mhmm. The other thing is, gonna take more out of me, and I'm that.
Ryan Holiday:Scared or intimidated by that. So and it's not like I feel like, oh, I have to write these certain number of books so then I'll be remembered forever. It's just about it. So I just took today off. But what did I get out?
Ryan Holiday:Like, what for what reason? Do Do you know what I mean? Like, so I watch TV all day. I sat around all day. I've if if if I decided not to work because I'm gonna about it.
Ryan Holiday:Hang out with my family, or I'm gonna take a long walk on the beach, or I'm gonna read, or about. I'm gonna take care of myself. The the that's perfectly fine. That's a part of a a great life. Sure.
Ryan Holiday:Doing it because
Ali Abdaal:about. I wanna watch TV.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. That that doesn't I don't think that gives you where
Speaker 4:you wanna go.
Ali Abdaal:Some people might argue that watching TV is self care. And so it's like, oh, I didn't work today because I felt, about, I don't know, stressed or burned out, and I needed to watch TV.
Ryan Holiday:No. I think if you're doing that because if if that's actually what it is,
Speaker 3:about it. More power to you.
Ryan Holiday:But is is that it, or are you
Ali Abdaal:lying to yourself? About. So for you, when it comes to, like, writing more
Ryan Holiday:books Wait. I'll put it this way. Yeah. Recovery is important. Right?
Ryan Holiday:Like, if you work out, recovery is important. You have to have a certain number of days where you recover. You let the body about Rest and recuperate. Yeah. Is that what you're doing, or about it.
Ryan Holiday:Are you just not doing it because it's hard to do? It's always hard to do. Right? So that. And the whole point is that it's hard to do.
Ryan Holiday:If it was easy to do, there wouldn't be any benefits to it. Right? So, about You know, are you stopping because you're sensitive to an injury, or are you stopping because about it. Pretending that you're being sensitive to an inner an injury is an excuse to stop.
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Ali Abdaal:a couple of $100 a year.
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Speaker 3:So I
Ali Abdaal:was re rereading, Bertrand Russell's a essay, in praise of idleness, where he's basically talking about how this, you know, this attitude that the modern world inculcates within us, which is that kind of work is inherently meaningful is, like, bad and problematic and Sure. All that jazz.
Speaker 3:About it. I'm, like, I'm I'm curious for you.
Ali Abdaal:Like, you're presumably planning to write more books because you're very young in the grass. Give me things. About But, like, why? What is the if it if not, like, I wanna be remembered, I want a legacy, then what's what's
Speaker 4:what's it all in service of?
Ryan Holiday:No. He has a great line. He says, the first sign of an impending nervous collapse is the belief that your work is terribly, terribly important. About it. And I think you're totally right.
Ryan Holiday:You know, if you had this sense, like, I'm building this monument, about You know, or the world has to experience my genius. This is gonna last for a 1000 years. You know, about That's not that's not only delusional, but, like, it's, kind of a miserable place to be and it usually end it usually about feeds on itself and eventually, you know, wears you down. At this point, I write books that I am interested in. Right?
Ryan Holiday:Like, that I about it. Find myself better for having done.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Ryan Holiday:This this book that I just did in the virtue series, so I did, courage it. I did, Discipline, and now I'm doing Justice. I'm almost certain this will be the worst selling book in the series, the Justice one, because it's the least it. You talked about certain terms you know will perform well.
Ali Abdaal:Discipline is good.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. Discipline Yeah. Disciplined. Obviously, it was I knew if I did a good job, it would be a home run. Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:This one, it. Even if I do the greatest job I possibly can be possibly can do, you know, it probably has a ceiling on it in some way. About it. But, like, I was better for having done it. It I learned something.
Ryan Holiday:I about it. Articulated something to myself in writing about it. If my kids are the only 2 people that read it. You know, like, I try to I try to find about it. Standards of success were motivations that have become more self sufficient as I've gone.
Ryan Holiday:Yep. So at this point, about it. I write things because, creatively, I find them interesting. Yep. And I love the process of being about it.
Ryan Holiday:In the middle of it, even even when it's really hard. And I the same thing is true with running. Like, about it. I love and I hate running. Like That's it.
Ryan Holiday:I obviously, not doing it is about it. Easier than doing it. Yeah. But when I don't do it, I feel worse. Like, I feel not in an addictive way, but I feel when I do it, about it.
Ryan Holiday:I feel proud of myself. I feel, physically good. I my mind gets it. Like, it about it. It's better that I do it than not do it.
Ryan Holiday:And they're the feeling of being in the middle of a book, about it. Both the momentum of it and the frustratingness it all kind of combines into it just an overall rewarding immersive experience. There's about that. That's what a flow state is.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So it sounds like for
Ali Abdaal:you, writing is the thing that your higher self does and wants to do, and therefore is almost about good in its in its own right regardless of how the outcome turns out to be.
Ryan Holiday:I think so.
Ali Abdaal:It. And so you push yourself to write on days even when you don't feel like it. They it's it's like going for a run, like going to the gym. It's like the thing that you know is good for you about that. You know, is aligned with your own personal values, and you don't wanna be the sort of guy that's like, you know what?
Ali Abdaal:I'm gonna skip writing for the next year so I can play more video games kind of vibe.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. One of the stoics, his name was Musonius Rufus. He says, when you do something shameful for pleasure, the pleasure passes it. Quickly, but the shame endures. And then he says, but when you do something hard about it.
Ryan Holiday:For good, the effort passes quickly, but the good endures. Oh, nice.
Speaker 3:About it.
Ryan Holiday:I think That's good. You find whether it's pushing yourself physically like exercise, that's throwing yourself into a big project, about You know, whether it's sacrificing for someone or something, you know, you quickly forget all that it took out of you and all that went into it, and you think about the impact that you had, or you just think about about The plane you temporarily ascended to to get there. And then when you think about,
Speaker 3:about it. I don't know. The cake that you ate Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:Or, you know, the the off day that you took or the urge that you submitted to. Afterwards, there's about it. That period where you go, that's what I did all that for? You know? That that that 5 seconds?
Ryan Holiday:You know? Or not even the 5 seconds. Right? About it. And that's the higher, lower self.
Ali Abdaal:So you've recently done a bit of a, well, I wouldn't say pivot, like, about side hustle on the whole daily dad stuff, which is interesting.
Speaker 4:A lot of, I've about that.
Ali Abdaal:I I've been just found
Speaker 4:I found myself reading a
Ali Abdaal:lot of, like, parenting advice recently. I'm not even close to becoming a dad, but I was just curious, it. And I'm part of your daily newsletter on on that as well because it's just it's just interesting. But there seems to be this really common thing of, like, people working hard, about in their career, sometimes at the expense of their family.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Ali Abdaal:And, you You know, you'll hear people say that, like, I thought I was doing my kids a favor by working on and doing this thing and, like, focusing on my career and stuff. But, actually, what I maybe should have done in hindsight is to spend less time on my career and more time on the kid stuff. Yeah. How do you think about that balance between, like, working hard at the thing, but also, like, being there for about the the small ones.
Ryan Holiday:Well, it's very insidious because you say I'm doing it all for them, and so you are about Doing something very selfish, but you are cloaking it in selflessness. Like, about That's why I'm getting on this airplane. That's why I'm staying this late at the office. That's why I'm, you know, blah blah blah blah blah. But about.
Ryan Holiday:If you asked your kids, you know, what do they want? Like, more money would be about it. Nowhere in that list. Right? Or if if it if it was on the list, there would be such a preposterously and refreshingly childlike understanding of money Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:It. You know, that it would I think it would humble you. So you're you're saying you're doing it for them, but you're not. You're doing it for you. You're doing it for you.
Ryan Holiday:And about The tragedy of of and the irony of I'm doing it I'm doing all this for the people I never see
Speaker 3:about it.
Ryan Holiday:It's a very sad, fucked up place that a lot of sort of high powered accomplished people find themselves in. Mhmm. And about it. I heard something great when someone said, like, success is your kids wanting to be with you when you're an adult. About and so, like, how will you measure your life at the end?
Ryan Holiday:Right? It won't be, like, the size of the the inheritance that you about it. Leave them. It will be, you know, are you still in each other's lives now? So how do you invest in that's not something that you can do later.
Speaker 3:You you know
Ryan Holiday:what I mean? So you have to make those decisions, Matt. And they're and they're costly and uncertain. And about. And, the worst part is you don't even know how much it's costing.
Ryan Holiday:I mean, this is obviously much about Scarier and sort of systemically imposed on women. Right? So, like, you're gonna take 3 years out of your you know, about Cumulatively 3 years out of your working life in your twenties and thirties, which has this enormous cumulative compounding effect on about it. The trajectory that you're gonna end up, on, you know, that's a very scary thing. And it's it's it's unfair in a lot of ways.
Ryan Holiday:About it. But at the end of your life, you know, it's probably gonna be something you're glad that you did. Mhmm. And so it. I think a lot of men just sort of, unthinkingly, don't do it at all.
Ryan Holiday:But I've I've tried to sort of go, yeah, what is about it. What is it that you wanna do and who do you wanna be? There's this great term, an art monster. I forget this female writer, she was saying like, my dream was to be an art monster. Basically, just just me and my work and no family.
Ryan Holiday:No, about You know, no baggage, no impositions, just me and and and then there are a lot of art monsters, and they've written great about that. But when you read their biographies, you just sort of go, what? You know? Was that worth it? You know?
Ryan Holiday:About it. And it it kind of it kind of taints all of the stuff that they did. It makes it much more about it. Bittersweet and not so great.
Ali Abdaal:How did you decide to, you know, go into the dad stuff rather than quit stay in your lane as the stoic guy?
Ryan Holiday:I don't know if I really decided it. I mean so writing with daily dad. I mean, the the reason I decided to do the daily dad was that about it. Writing The Daily Stoic made me better as a person. You can't, every single day, sit down and try to take about it.
Ryan Holiday:Insights from the wisest people who ever lived and distilled them down into a couple 100 words over and over and over again about it. And not emerge some somewhat bonded to those idea. Like, it just it gets in your bloodstream. Right? You're just That's what stoicism is.
Ryan Holiday:Stow is what Mark Sierras is doing in his meditations was writing down things. A lot of it comes from other stoic texts. About it. He's just writing it down, rephrasing it, and writing it down, and writing it down, and rephrasing it, and looking at it this way, and look at he's having this Philosophical discussion with themselves with himself. And that's how Marx realized becomes Marx realized.
Ryan Holiday:So the process of writing the daily stoke book about it. And then
Speaker 3:writing The Daily Stokes
Ryan Holiday:every day now for 7 years. It's almost a 1000000 words that I published for free, to you You know, I think we've done 3,000 daily stoke emails. That's like 7 or 8 books worth of content. I about have benefited from that. Like, it's built a business around it.
Ryan Holiday:But, like, if I had made precisely $0, about it. That would have been the bargain of a lifetime. Right? Like, I've gotten so much better from having done that. And so I just decided about it.
Ryan Holiday:That I would do the same thing about parenting. And if it helps other people, great. You know? If it sells books, great. About it.
Ryan Holiday:But the process of having to intentionally sit down and think about and then write about and then publish, about You know, how I wanna think about these things has made me better.
Speaker 3:About it.
Ryan Holiday:And that's how that's how you should think about it. I was I was talking to my wife last night. We're talking about this, book that we were reading. And, about You know, you get all the way to the end, you're like, oh, that was good. But actually you needed in you needed to read it over like 6 months, like a couple pages a day.
Ryan Holiday:Like, about it. I just read this great book by this parenting expert named doctor Becky Kennedy. And so I read it. About it. But then because I'm gonna write about it for Daily Debt, I went through it page by page after and took out all the stuff that I liked.
Speaker 3:About it.
Ryan Holiday:And it was at the 2nd part was where I got stuff out of it, not the reading at once from cover to cover. Mhmm. And so there's something about the page a day format that's worked in about it. Daily Stuck and Daily Dad. Like, if you're trying to absorb a philosophy or a new way of thinking or about it.
Ryan Holiday:Transform yourself from here to there. It's it's not 300 pages that you read Yeah. You know, from October 1st it. To November 17th. You know, it takes you a month and a half to read.
Ryan Holiday:It's much better if you're layering it like a page a day about. For a year or 2 years or 3 years, and you're coming back like, the process of that sort of over and over and over and over again, that's about it. That's where the stuff gets absorbed.
Speaker 3:What are
Ali Abdaal:some of the key, I guess, you it. You know, from from here to there, like, through the course of writing daily data and kind of being a parent, what is what what are some of the key lessons that have really sort of separated the Rhine today from the Rhine maybe, like, 3 years ago.
Ryan Holiday:I think patience, I think. Like, Like, if I'm thinking, like, the the things I've struggled with most as a parent, but that have also made the most difference. Number 1, about it. Like, the greatest thing you can give your gift your your your kids is presents. Like, not gifts, but presents.
Ryan Holiday:Like, just actually being there. Not doing something else. About it. So, you know, in a digital world, that's extremely difficult to do. So I struggle with that patience, of course.
Ryan Holiday:You know, it doesn't happen it doesn't have to happen quickly. It just has to happen, to take your time with it, to let them take their time, to not rush things. About it. Every time you think you can't go on like this, that's when you get some sort of breakthrough. Every time you think they're never gonna figure it out, that's when they figure it out.
Ryan Holiday:So I think patience has been a big one. About it. I've I've read a lot and thought about, like, sort of how do you just, like, just root for this person? Mhmm. Like, not about it.
Ryan Holiday:Not attach any conditions, not attach any judgments, not attach any expectations, but just about Be an unconditional supporter of them and who they are for who they are and what they are. Which I think ties into another idea I've been thinking a lot about, which is, like, your job is to help your kids become that person, not to make them a person that you want them to be. About it. You know? So to just sort of help them become who they are.
Ryan Holiday:That's something I've thought a lot about and worked on a lot. About And then the one I've been thinking a lot about, which I heard about in doctor Becky's book. Obviously, I knew about it, but it made sense. But she talks about, like, don't try to be a perfect parent. Try to be a parent who's really good at repair.
Ryan Holiday:Like, at fixing it when you mess up. Fixing it when things didn't go the way that you wanted them to go. About it. You know, reconnecting when, you know, there is conflict or when people go in separate directions, but but repair.
Speaker 3:About.
Ryan Holiday:So I'd say those are those are sort of the perennial ones that I struggle with and I'm thinking about.
Ali Abdaal:That's very cool. Yeah. I I I, it. You know, my YouTube channel is is essentially an an exploration of the stuff I'm interested in, and I've recently started to become interested in, relationships in terms of reading books about how to have a healthier, happier relationship. And I I hope that when I become a dad and continue making videos, Then I'll be like, yeah, reading all these parenting books and, like, making a video every every couple of months to be like, right.
Ali Abdaal:I've just read this sick unconditional parenting. I'll think, oh, it's good good shit. You know? 10 10 takeaways. About that sort of stuff.
Ali Abdaal:I found, I guess, similar to you kind of writing daily stoic through me trying to make a video or 2 every week for 6 plus years, about all personal development adjacent. Those lessons seep into your subconscious in a way that, like, they really wouldn't otherwise.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. Yeah. Seneca says we learn as we teach. About it. And so if you as a person who writes self help books or makes YouTube videos or has pockets or whatever, if you're thinking, about it.
Ryan Holiday:I'm really smart and I am telling you everything that I know. Mhmm. Not only is that about it. Egotistical, but it actually continues to inflate and, puff up the ego. Right?
Ryan Holiday:About it. But if instead you see it as, like, I am trying to figure things out and I am explaining what I am learning as I am learning it.
Speaker 4:About yeah. You are learning it and other
Ryan Holiday:people are learning it. And you're creating this feedback loop in which you're both learning at the same time. About it. And by having to articulate it and explain it and distill it Yeah. You are understanding it better than if you were just learning it for yourself.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah.
Ali Abdaal:Yeah. There's a book I'm reading at the moment called, Notes From A Fellow Traveler by Darren Brown. He's a magician. Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. He's really into stoicism, I know.
Speaker 4:Oh, he's he is. His book, Happy, is very good.
Ali Abdaal:I think, basically, all about stoicism. About. But I really like the title of that book, notes from a fellow traveler. Mhmm. He's he's sort of a book written for other magicians, but that framing, like, a fellow traveler.
Ali Abdaal:I really like that.
Speaker 4:Because he's not
Ali Abdaal:trying to be a guru. He's not saying I've got the answer. He's just like, hey. I'm in this business just as you are, and here are some notes. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And I
Ali Abdaal:just love that framing of it. It just takes It takes all the pressure off, reduces the seriousness, makes it feel more like play, all of all of the good things.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. Someone who's just a little bit further along the path in some ways or struggling with their own things, and you're and you're sort of channeling that and trying to make it accessible and practical to other people.
Ali Abdaal:About. What is, what are some of like, I I really like the list of the the the parenting some things. Do you have any, on relationships in general? Like, about gosh. The romantic relationship with your wife and things.
Ali Abdaal:What are some things that you guys do that maybe you've discovered through reading and about stuff. But
Ryan Holiday:Well, I always say that the number one so I've been with my wife now for 17 years. We we met when we were in college, about it. And, we, we met at a college party. We got married almost about it. 10 years ago.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Ryan Holiday:I think it's 8 years this year, 9 years. So it's been a long time. So it's, and we basically been married that whole time. About it. In that we always had a a very sort of involved, like, serious relationship as opposed to just we've known each other a long
Speaker 3:about it.
Ryan Holiday:And so people sometimes ask what the secret to, like, oh, you know, lasting that long is. And I usually say that the the secret is to not break up. About. That's the secret. That's the the number one secret is to just not break up.
Ryan Holiday:Because I'm I'm joking, but I'm also not joking. Right? Like, I think about. Just as a productivity system or a business or a lifestyle, whatever. It it it's about about it.
Ryan Holiday:Picking a thing and then sticking
Speaker 3:with
Ryan Holiday:that thing. Yeah. Right? Through the ups and downs of about What life inevitably brings you. Mhmm.
Ryan Holiday:And I find, you know, obviously, we got together before online dating was really even a thing. But then
Speaker 3:about it. Dating apps and like,
Ryan Holiday:I noticed that a lot of my friends struggle because it's easy to break up and it's about it. Easy to find another person.
Speaker 3:Do you know
Ryan Holiday:what I mean? Like, essentially, an unlimited amount of other fish in the sea exist. And if you about Conceive of that makes it very hard to do what a relationship requires. Mhmm. You know what I mean?
Ryan Holiday:Which is
Speaker 3:about it. Sacrifice, which
Ryan Holiday:is struggle, which is putting up with shit, you know? So it's hard. It's like, it's really hard. It's hard. About So I I, profess to have no no secrets other than don't quit.
Ali Abdaal:I mean, it's it's amazing how in in all these different spheres. Like, you know, the stuff you were talking about with kids, presence, patience, rooting without conditions, judgments, expectations, being repair and not being perfect. All of that stuff applies to every other aspect of life as well, like work about 2.
Ryan Holiday:Well, even the kids stuff applies to yourself. Right? Because we all have sort of we all have this inner child that needs work. Right? That's stuck somewhere, not fully developed.
Ryan Holiday:About it.
Speaker 3:And one
Ryan Holiday:of the beautiful things about having kids is the way that it allows you to reparent yourself because you suddenly about Fully understand what a 6 year old is going through, or a 9 year old is going through, or a 9 month old is going through. It. And you can see more clearly now the things that you didn't get that maybe you needed, or the ways that about How everyone used to do things was insufficient. Maybe just for you specifically, or maybe just as a practice it was terrible. About it.
Ryan Holiday:And you can kinda see oh, okay. I can't go back in time and fix that. But I can do things differently about it. Here. And I can also empathize, connect with an earlier version of myself that needed those things too.
Ryan Holiday:And that by giving that thing about it. To someone else, you're also partly healing yourself.
Ali Abdaal:That's great stuff. You're in pretty good shape. About. What are some of the secrets to stay staying in good shape as you've been, you know, been a bit a bit a parent?
Ryan Holiday:I possess to have profess to have no other secrets there either other than I try to run, about it. Swim or bike every day. I just try to do some hard, strenuous about it. Physical activity every day.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Ryan Holiday:And if there is a health benefit to that, about it. I consider it a bonus on top of the two real benefits that having an exercise practice gives you. 1, about it. You are literally practicing having a practice. Like, every day I go for a run.
Ryan Holiday:The default is that I do the thing. About it. And every time I do the thing, I am building the muscle of of doing the thing and being the kind of person that does about. What I say I'm going to do. Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:Like, it's not fun to do it. It can hurt to do it. But about I get up off the couch and I do the thing that I say I'm going to do. And the second benefit of having a physical practice is that about. It's usually getting the mind moving in some way.
Ryan Holiday:About it. And so, you know, there's no screens. There's no multitasking. You're just in that about it. Headspace.
Ryan Holiday:So, like, I have the I have the the flow state every day from the physical activity. And about The days when I don't have it, nothing else is as works as well.
Speaker 3:Do you
Ali Abdaal:do any weight training?
Ryan Holiday:Or Yeah. About. Yeah. I try to lift weights, like, I don't know, a couple times a week.
Ali Abdaal:I feel like I've seen some b roll of you in, like,
Ryan Holiday:the backyard. Yeah. I pick up kettlebells or I have, like, a squat rack. I gotta do some stuff. Not as, And the pandemic, I got more into it than I do now.
Ryan Holiday:The important thing for me is I run, swim, or bike. Like, I do about it. Some form of cardio exercise for a long period of time. And then if I can get the other stuff in, sure.
Ali Abdaal:Changing gears a bit. I was relistening to the conversation we had 3 years ago in the car on the way here. And the one of the things you said in that has actually stayed with me about for the last 3 years. It was something to the effect of you know, you've got all these friends who are in real estate, and sometimes you're like, maybe I should get into real estate. And And then you realize all your friends wanna be self help book writers, and you're like, I've got a pretty good gig.
Ali Abdaal:Yeah. I wonder if you can just sort of, like, riff on that for for a sec.
Ryan Holiday:About it. Seneca had this word euthymia, which he defines as tranquility. He says, tranquility is the sense of the path about it. You were on and not being distracted by the paths that crisscross yours. This is especially from those who are hopelessly lost.
Ryan Holiday:About it. I think it's very beautiful and true. Sometimes you find like when you're running, about You know, someone will pass you. And you go, are they faster than me? They could've started 8 seconds ago, and you could be 5 miles in.
Ryan Holiday:About it. Or they could be stronger than you. They could be doing sterile you know, like, there's about it. The idea that you're comparing yourself to this person when you don't know when they started and you don't know where they're finish finishing is madness. Right?
Ryan Holiday:About it. And life is like that. Like, we're all running our own races, and you've gotta have a sense of the race that you are running and what about it. Victory or success in that race is to you. So I think that's, like, just the number one life lesson.
Ryan Holiday:And something I I remember learning, about I'd run around this track in college, and I would sometimes catch myself picking up my pace to keep up with someone else. And then they would stop. About. And I'm like, I just gassed myself. You know?
Ryan Holiday:Now I have to cut the run short because I was competing with this person, and I have no idea what their goals are, what they're doing. About it. I'm I know nothing about them other than someone competition, you know, and it it sucks you in. So I think
Speaker 3:about it. That's a really important lesson that
Ryan Holiday:I've learned from the physical practice over the years. But about One of the things about jealousy or this or envy, that sort of competitive urge that we feel in other parts of our lives about Is that we don't spend a lot of time thinking about who that other person is, what their life is like, about. And what they want. You know, Marcus Aurelius is like these the people whose approval you you crave, he says take a minute about To think about who they really are and whether and see what that does to the approval you want from them. Right?
Ryan Holiday:It's like you just go, oh, about. This person has this. I wanna be like them, or I wanna be accepted into that group. I wanna be in this club. And you're not really thinking about who those people are, what they do, about it.
Ryan Holiday:Whether it's working for them. And I've had this surreal sort of experience pertaining to that where you meet about people, and you think they have it all. Mhmm. And then, you know, you're jealous of them, and then it turns out they're jealous of you. About it.
Ryan Holiday:Right? Like, you you jealousy almost always takes for granted what you have because it's, about You know, eyeing what someone else has. Mhmm. And there's usually a an ignorance of about Would you act what what is it actually like to be that other person? And I've yeah.
Ryan Holiday:I found it's funny you meet you meet these billionaires or whatever. And, What do they actually wanna do? They wanna write books. Like, they they have all the money in the world, and what are they trying to spend the money on? They're trying to spend it on having the thing that I get to do.
Ryan Holiday:And so I I try to remind myself of that and count myself as lucky to get to do this.
Ali Abdaal:Do you feel that sense of comparison? Or or Do you slash did you ever feel that sense of comparison when it comes to, bestseller lists and book sales numbers? And, James Clear's got this many 5 star reviews on Amazon, and I've only got this many 5 star you know, that that whole shebang.
Ryan Holiday:Well, that's why it's important to understand about. What race you're running? Right? So, I remember I was at a conference in what's Canada? I I don't remember.
Ryan Holiday:I was at some conference. And James, who was, then they had this popular newsletter. It's sort of vaguely news work. We talked a couple times. About it.
Ryan Holiday:I was doing a panel or a session on publishing. And he came and he asked for a bunch of advice, but he was just generally, about it. If I remember correctly, quite skeptical about why anyone would traditionally publish or publish a book at all. He's like, why would I do this? I have this huge email newsletter.
Ryan Holiday:Why wouldn't I just write stuff on the Internet? And I thought I said, look, people have read books for 1000 of years. It's a it's a medium that has a certain cultural Significance. And books are actually a great way to deliver ideas. Right?
Ryan Holiday:But there I was a person who'd published, you know, a few successful books at that point. It. And I'm sort of like condescendingly telling this Internet writer why publishing should, you know, be something that he considers. It. And then a couple years later, he puts out a book.
Ryan Holiday:And that 1 book has sold more than all of my books combined and then some. So, you know, about. The one reaction to that would just be jealousy Yeah. Scorn, sinus like, you could you could that could make you feel shitty.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:And I think there are times in my life when maybe that would have made me feel shitty. Mhmm. But first off, I like James. Second, I think he's a great writer. And I think Atomic Habits is actually a very good book.
Ryan Holiday:About it. And 3rd, I don't know how many I'm counting now. But whatever. There is no universe in which about it. That book selling more or less copies affects my life in any negative or positive way.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. Right? Like so that book could sell a 100,000,000 copies. About it. They're not it's not coming out of my pocket.
Ryan Holiday:Right? So more power to them. Right? And so I've tried to remind myself of that. But then what I about it.
Ryan Holiday:I've you have to do when you realize you're running your own race is you have to go, James is writing a book about about habits, which is for everyone. I am writing about an obscure school of ancient philosophy, which I would like to be for everyone, it. But by definition, it's probably going to be for fewer people. And that is a choice that I made willingly. Mhmm.
Ryan Holiday:I can about Write about whatever I want. I could have written about whatever I want. I chose this thing or this thing chose me because it. It's the right thing for me. And you have to be able to go, right.
Ryan Holiday:This is where I'm supposed to be. I made a series of choices. About it. And for better or for worse, those choices made some outcomes possible
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Ryan Holiday:And some outcomes not possible. Like, I remember I spoke to these, about it. High ranking officers in the Navy once a couple years ago. And I was talking about ego or something. And I said, you know, like, if you got into this for, like, money
Speaker 3:about it. And recognition and fame,
Ryan Holiday:you fucked up. Like, you shouldn't have joined the navy. Like, you joined this because there were certain parts of it that lit you up about it. That were meaningful to you, that you thought were the right fit for you. You chose classical music, not about.
Ryan Holiday:Pop music. Yeah. Right? And by nature of making that choice, some outcomes are possible and some outcomes are not possible. You have to accept that.
Ryan Holiday:And the worst thing you can do is make those choices which are objective and about A sort of unbeatable and then work really hard and expect things that are about in contradiction of that choice. Do you know what I mean? Like, if you're a classical musician and you go, my goal is to be the best classical musician I can be and to it. Push the boundaries as it blah blah blah blah blah, then you can succeed. If you go, I'm putting out this album, and I hope it debuts at number 1 on the about Billboard charts, you know, you're almost surely going to be severely disappointed because you've chosen something that about is a smaller pool.
Ryan Holiday:You know, maybe you have a higher floor, but a lower ceiling. That's the nature of the choice that you made. About it. And being honest with yourself about that is really, really important,
Speaker 3:at
Ryan Holiday:least for happiness.
Ali Abdaal:Yeah. Do you ever meet writers who you feel have, about sort of this unhealthy relationship with comparison. Is it like or most of the people you just hang out with fairly enlightened?
Ryan Holiday:No. No. I mean, definitely, there's people that are, about You know, sort of driven by how much they sell or Yeah. How much money they make or whatever. But, again, about.
Ryan Holiday:If that's why you got into books, you fucked up. You know what I mean? Like, if you got into writing books for money and fame and power, about it. You're an idiot. Like like, there's that's not even that's, like about.
Ryan Holiday:That's probably the worst of all the different genres of entertainment or show business. Yeah. You pick the worst one. About it. Like, for that, if that's what you're optimizing for, you pick the worst one.
Ryan Holiday:So to expect like, the Stokes say, don't expect figs in winter. About it. That's like the essence of happiness is to not expect figs in winter. There's a time when you can get figs, and it's not winter.
Speaker 3:About it.
Ryan Holiday:So, you know, you can be successful writing books. You can make, about it. A good amount of money. You can make more money than you need. Mhmm.
Ryan Holiday:But are are you going to rival the fortune of Warren Buffett? No. You know? So to expect otherwise is probably silly. It's not even probably silly.
Ryan Holiday:It's stupid. It's stupid. And it's not fair. It's not fair to you or to the people around you. Right?
Ryan Holiday:Because you are feeling aggrieved about that you didn't get something that it was not possible ever to get. So my book
Ali Abdaal:is coming out in at the end of December, so I'm not sure when this is gonna be aired, but end of December. About it. Any advice? It's the first one. You've been been through this a lot.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. About. So I always tell people when they finish a book Yeah. That you have completed the first of 2 marathons. And about You you finish this 1st marathon and you think, you know, you stagger across the finish line.
Ryan Holiday:And and you think they're someone grabs you by the hand and you think But they're gonna take you over to, like, the metal stand Yeah. And instead, they're just leading you over to the starting line of the 2nd marathon, about it. Which is now marketing and selling the book. Mhmm. Talking about it and getting it into people's hands.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. And so understanding that these are two about it. Equally important races, I think is really, really important. And not enough people do that. They just about it.
Ryan Holiday:Bright something and they just expect or assume that the world owes them success, which it doesn't. People are busy. People have a lot going on. About it. There's not only all the books that are coming out, but there's literally everything that has ever been published for all of human history about Up until this point.
Ryan Holiday:And a lot of it is very good, and most people haven't even gotten to a fraction of that. About it. So the idea that your thing is gonna jump in front of that line is inherently presumptuous, if not delusional. About it. And so it takes a lot for it to break through.
Ryan Holiday:You know, the obstacle is away when it came out. First off, you know, I said to myself, about it. I'm writing a book about ancient philosophy. Most people are not interested in ancient philosophy. Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:So it's already an uphill battle. About it. And then I said to myself, I read a lot. How many books do I read the week they come out? About.
Ryan Holiday:With a month they come out, with a year they come out. And I read way more than most people. How many books have I pre ordered ever in my life? About. Maybe 1 or 2.
Ryan Holiday:So the idea that this thing is gonna come out of the gates as a hit
Speaker 3:about it. Is stupid. You know? It's gonna
Ryan Holiday:take a long time. So first off, try to make something that doesn't need Doesn't have an expiration date on it. That's number 1. Number 2, seeing it as a marathon and not a sprint. It's really, really important.
Ryan Holiday:About it. So The OST was the way it came out in May of 2014. I'd started writing it in 2012. So it took 2 years, about it. Came out.
Ryan Holiday:It sold 3, 4000 copies its 1st week. About it. It got skunked on the New York Times bestseller list.
Speaker 3:I tried
Ali Abdaal:skunked as
Ryan Holiday:in Yeah. Like it it should it it probably sold enough to hit the what was then the extended list. There was 20 spots on the advice I had to then, and it didn't. Mhmm. And it certainly sold enough to hit the Wall Street Journal about it.
Ryan Holiday:Hardcover business list. And, someone at my publisher had decided to list it as a, about Like, different like, it didn't qualify for that list. Like, they categorized they check the box, categorizes something different. Didn't hit it? Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:So it did not hit any bestseller list until about it. September of 2019. Wow. Nice. At which point it had sold close to a 1000000 copies.
Ryan Holiday:About it. So again, we think, like, you know, we think of what a best seller is. We forget that best seller lists are categorized by the week.
Speaker 3:About it.
Ryan Holiday:So a book that sells 10,000 copies in 1 week will hit a bestseller list for that week, almost certainly. About it. But a book that sells 1,000 copies a week for a year, sell 5 times as many copies, about But almost certainly not make any bestseller list. Which would you rather have? And so it's about about it.
Ryan Holiday:Setting yourself up to last, and it's about not quitting on it. Nice. About it. And The Obstacle's Way sells most years sells more copies than it did the previous year, which is,
Speaker 3:about it. You know, pretty
Ryan Holiday:rare in publishing. Mhmm. But every single week that comes out, it that it is out, how many copies it sold in its 1st week becomes less and less important.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Ryan Holiday:Right? And Yeah. Unless you are not successful, that will be true for your project. About it. Right?
Ryan Holiday:Like, every week, the percentage of how you did at the beginning
Ali Abdaal:Becomes more and more meaningless.
Ryan Holiday:Becomes more and more meaningless. About But that's very hard to think about when you when it is 100% of the weeks that you've been out. Right? About. Takes time.
Ryan Holiday:And and realizing that when the thing I've try I tried to say to myself is, about. The 2 people who have never heard of you, you are new. So I I'll about it. Almost certainly have an email in my inbox when I get done from this from someone and say, I just read your book, The Obstacle's Way, that is approaching its 10 year anniversary. Yeah.
Speaker 3:About it. Right? And so to them, it's a brand new book.
Ryan Holiday:And it's a brand new book to them because they're a junior in high school. Yeah. You know? And they were about it. 8 when it came out.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. You know? And so, you know, that's what sort of lasting can do. About And to and to, yeah, to to sort of be be patient with is the main is the main thing.
Speaker 4:About it. We so we we have a
Ali Abdaal:Telegram group for our podcast, and we said we were gonna an interview, and we had, like, loads of people asking loads of questions. There's 1 comment from 1 guy that I felt a bit salty about. He was like, Ryan Holiday says the same stuff on every podcast he's interviewed on. And I was like, about it.
Speaker 4:Because I also I I say the
Ali Abdaal:same stuff every podcast I made to be. It's like, it's kind of like about thing you have to do. And, like, I I found that it was it was less a common to you and and more like, about I started thinking, fuck. You know? I've I've made the same video so many times.
Ali Abdaal:I've talked been talking about productivity for, like, 6 plus years now.
Speaker 4:I've basically been saying
Ali Abdaal:the same stuff, but talk about. But each year each month, we get, like, a 100,000 new subscribers. It's clearly new to someone.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. There's some main character energy in in people who don't realize that, about. Yeah. Most people are consuming this thing for the first time about and hearing about this person for the first time.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Ryan Holiday:So, you know, as a creator, there's a little bit of narcissism in that to talk about it. You know, like, everyone's following everything that I do. Mhmm. And in fact, not only is most people not know that you exist, even the people that know you exist and our fans, about it. You're like 5 100th on their list of priorities.
Ryan Holiday:Like, I think about my favorite bands, my favorite authors. Like, how closely am I following their life? Like, about it. Not at all. Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:I'm the inside main character energy of my own life. Yeah. So realizing that, like, that self consciousness can actually hold you back as a creator because you're like, about They'll people will get mad that I just talked about this 2 videos ago. Mhmm. And actually, they didn't see it 2 videos ago.
Ryan Holiday:So you're not but, the other product of this is about is the other part I would say to that person that's a little tricky is it's like, dude, it's not my fault. Like, I can only answer the questions sometimes you ask. And And I tend to get asked the same questions a lot. Right?
Ali Abdaal:What is Tyson?
Ryan Holiday:So so so, like, I would love to be I would love to have a totally new and unique conversation every time. And I do I I I definitely feel like there are ones where I'm like, that that was interesting to me for a change. I didn't feel like I was sort of, about You know, giving the same song and dance. But a lot of people are just asking the same questions because they're introducing you to their audience, or they wanna get about it. The basics.
Ryan Holiday:Do you know what I mean?
Ali Abdaal:So it's it can be weird. Do you ever get get bored
Ryan Holiday:writing about stoicism?
Speaker 3:About it. Not really, because one
Ryan Holiday:of the ideas from the Greeks is this idea that we don't step in the same river twice. About it. Because the river changes and you change. And so, I mean, I've been doing the daily stoking model every day for 7 years. About And I probably used about it.
Ryan Holiday:Some of the same quotes hundreds of times at this point. But it feels new to me every time I do it, because what I'm trying to say about Or the way into the idea is different, and I know the audience is different, and I know what's happening in the world is different. Mhmm. So it it keeps it it certainly keeps me about it. It feels fresh to me because life is fresh.
Ryan Holiday:Mhmm. But about it. When I am bored, I just write about whatever I want. You know? Like, it isn't the only thing that I do.
Ryan Holiday:About it. And so when I feel like writing something, I write that down.
Ali Abdaal:Yeah. Because people sometimes ask me that, you know, are you bored? Aren't you bored of talking about productivity?
Speaker 4:About. Like, honestly, not really.
Ali Abdaal:Like, I'm bored of, I guess, making videos that are, like, top 10 productivity tools, but I do very little of that these days. And about I think productivity is, you know, really just about using our time well, which covers basically everything in personal development. And it. So even if I'm writing about relationships or making a video about health, I would count that as productivity. Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:But but also, you know, productivity to you when you were in medical school is different than what productivity is to you now as you are not in medicine. It's different to you when you had 1 employee, it's different to you when you had 10. Mhmm. You know, it what you're going through and where you're applying it is fundamentally different. Mhmm.
Ryan Holiday:So you're talking about the same ideas. About it. You have a larger sense of it. You have larger set of experiences to draw from. And so even if it is the same, it's about it.
Ryan Holiday:It's better and different Yeah. Because it's based on more. Nice. Why do you think people are so interested in passive income? About it.
Ali Abdaal:I'm really interested in passive income.
Ryan Holiday:Does it exist?
Ali Abdaal:I I think it does. About it. So there's this the the this whole dream, I I'm I'm not sure if if Tim Ferriss used the phrase in the 4 hour work week or if it was a thing afterwards. But But I remember reading that book when I was, like, 17 and just about to apply
Ryan Holiday:hour working?
Ali Abdaal:Yeah. And just, like, just about to apply to medical school. About. And my mind just absolutely blew wide open at the the thought that I could be making money while I slept. And just that thing of, like,
Speaker 4:you know, was always always in
Ali Abdaal:the back of my mind. And And now we know it's it's it's another one of those things that anytime we make a video on YouTube, with the with the phrase passive income in it, we know it's gonna do well because about. People love the idea of of doing a thing and then it making money without needing your additional input. I I think kinda like books. Books are a source of passive income.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. Well, intellectual property.
Ali Abdaal:Exactly. Yeah. You know, you wrote The Obstacles Away 10 years ago, and it's now been making you passive income ever since. About it. I've certainly
Speaker 3:found in our business,
Ali Abdaal:the stuff that I I I get so much satisfaction out of seeing, like, an a Stripe notification that someone bought a course I filmed 3 years ago.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. And I've
Ali Abdaal:made a $149 from it and way less satisfaction making way more money on a sponsored video. Is there something about it being an asset that is about spinning off, I guess, free money. That is, like, really nice, and, also, I guess, it really appeals to other people.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. I guess that makes sense.
Speaker 3:About it. I was talking to an internet marketer person
Ryan Holiday:that I knew and, you know, like let's say, he was saying like the email subject line, like, follow strategies to make $1,000 a month. About Or to make 1,000 of dollars a month would actually perform worse than say, like, this strategy helps me make about it. $1444.17 per month. Like, the spec she was saying, like, the specificity of it Yeah. Even if it was total nonsense about it.
Ryan Holiday:Resonated resonated with people more. And I always wondered what there's something. About Naive is not the wrong right word. Maybe unsophisticated is a nicer way to say it. The about the idea that about You if you just do all this stuff, at some point, you won't have to do anything.
Ryan Holiday:Do you know what I mean? Mhmm. Because that's not really how life works in my experience.
Ali Abdaal:Yeah. No. No. It's not really how life works.
Ryan Holiday:Nor is it how you would actually nor is it how the life works for most of the people that you admire. Do do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, people who do stuff that you're like, that's cool. I wanna be like that.
Ryan Holiday:Are not people who own
Speaker 3:about it.
Ryan Holiday:A series of vending machines that passively make money while they sleep. Do you know what I mean? They're people who are actively engaged about it. In what they do. Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:I guess. I so I've I've I've kinda gone back and forth on this whole passive income thing.
Ali Abdaal:We we still make videos about passive income, and I always do a whole, like, 20 minutes of philosophizing at the start to be like, okay. Here's how money works. Money is an exchange of value, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. About. But I find that like, if I think back to myself back when I was in medical school, the thought of being able to if If
Speaker 4:I if someone gave
Ali Abdaal:me a vending machine business and it was making 3,000 a month, I'm like, woah. I never need to work a day in my life now. Now I
Speaker 4:can now I can do
Ali Abdaal:what I really wanna do. About Sure. And just that being able to cover the basics through some sort of automated income stream, even if it's not, like, greatness or anything. Even if it's just like, I don't know, automated vending machines selling Coke cans or, like, a T shirt business or whatever the thing is, it. I think that is the that is still very appealing.
Ali Abdaal:Because then it's like, cool. The bases are now covered. I can now spend my time doing the things that I I actually want to do.
Speaker 3:About it.
Ryan Holiday:I get that. Yeah. I I I I thought about I thought it about it that way earlier in my career. I mean, first off, I had a job as I was becoming a writer, about it. Which allowed me to make certain creative decisions that maybe if I was a starving artist, I wouldn't have been able I wouldn't have had the luxury of being able to about it.
Ryan Holiday:Turn things down or doing things a certain way or having as much time. But then, yeah, I thought I it was like, I don't have a trust fund. But if I have about sort of income streams other than, like, the creative work that I do. It's like I gave myself a trust fund. Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:And now
Speaker 3:about it. I have a certain amount
Ryan Holiday:of freedom or independence that I wouldn't if I was living and dying by about How Yeah. A single paycheck. Yes. Or or till I burned through the book advance or whatever it was.
Ali Abdaal:About it. Yeah. Honestly, like, there and then anytime I make one of these money themed videos, there are always some comments that say, oh, I can't believe you're so obsessed with money. Like, stop talking about money all the time. It.
Ali Abdaal:I'm like, oh, this guy's such a so greedy and and stuff. But I'm always like, no. Like, having having more than one stream of income is genuinely life changing. Yeah. Like, it.
Ali Abdaal:The fact that I had money coming in from my YouTube channel and my business meant that I could leave my day job or at least go part time on it to focus on the thing that actually brought me about joy and fulfillment. Being able to have an extra stream of income is what allows parents to spend more time with their kids.
Ryan Holiday:Sure.
Ali Abdaal:It's like one of the most worthwhile things in the world to have if you care about personal freedom and fulfillment and stuff. And so about I was sort of I feel I feel a bit distasteful of the of the phrase passive income. Yeah. But I almost view view it as a bit of a a a Trojan horse into kind of teaching people that, like, hey. It.
Ali Abdaal:You know, the way you actually make money is by creating x amount of value and capturing y percent of it. Yeah. Now just figure out a way that you can do that that's not correlated with your time. Generally by creating something that's like media or code or basically those 2 things.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. Or investments or Oh,
Ali Abdaal:yeah. Or money itself. Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. About. Yeah. People talk about, like, you know, I wanna earn, like, fuck you money.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Ryan Holiday:But really, you could just have enough to be like, about You know? Or, like, I don't need to. Yeah. Or, you know, I just just enough that it can it can kind of about it. Help you swing you one way or another as you're thinking about making a decision.
Speaker 3:Do you know
Ryan Holiday:what I mean? Whereas if it. Your livelihood is dependent on this thing entirely.
Ali Abdaal:It's very hard to
Ryan Holiday:I think about, like, a I mean, obviously, you're not American. But in in America, the fact that
Speaker 3:about it. For most people,
Ryan Holiday:their health insurance is tied up. Yeah. That's no one's there.
Ali Abdaal:It's the from my gosh.
Ryan Holiday:It's especially as a country that about it. Celebrates entrepreneurialism and risk taking. Yeah. It seems like the most basic thing in the world that you would wanna separate those 2 things so people could about it.
Speaker 3:Take bigger
Ryan Holiday:risks and bet on themselves and do like, you shouldn't think I could literally die Yeah. If I leave my job. That's about. Madness to me. But being able to go, hey.
Ryan Holiday:Actually, I'm gonna I'm gonna it's I'm gonna see where this thing takes me.
Speaker 3:About it.
Ryan Holiday:And I know I'm not gonna starve. Like, I know that I have this thing. And maybe it's not my full expenses. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:I have these things that allow me like, when I when I did The Obstacles the Way, my publisher about it. Offered me about half of what I've gotten paid for my 1st book. So if I didn't have my day job, about it. I probably I don't know if I would have said yes. Mhmm.
Ryan Holiday:But I I wasn't indifferent to money, but I was able to go, I really don't care what the amount is. About it. What I care about is, are you gonna publish this book? Because if you are, then I'm gonna go all in on this thing. Do you know what I mean?
Ryan Holiday:And and it. So having I I do see how that gives you gives you a certain amount of freedom
Speaker 3:of movement. Yeah.
Ali Abdaal:I think, like, even, like, even in the UK so, it. Obviously, like, health insure your health insurance is not tied to your employment, and
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Ali Abdaal:The National Health Service is very good. But even then, people still about Act as if quitting their job means that they're gonna die.
Speaker 4:Yes. And I love and speak to
Ali Abdaal:people who, you know, like you know? About it. Back in the day, I was a bit concerned that, oh, if I leave medicine, will people think, oh, fuck you. I don't wanna listen to your content anymore. But it's actually kind of the it.
Ali Abdaal:It's happened. People are like, oh, man. You got out of the system. You like I don't know. Something about the matrix and and stuff.
Ali Abdaal:So people keep ask ask ask me for advice around quitting their job all the time. They're like, yeah. I really wanna leave my job and do this thing. I'm I'm like, great. What's stopping you?
Ali Abdaal:They're like, oh, but, like, you know, the paycheck.
Speaker 4:And I'm like, okay. Are you on
Ali Abdaal:the poverty line where, like, this paycheck is actually meaningful? There is a difference between survival and not. They're like, nope. Have you got any dependents? Nope.
Ali Abdaal:These are all people in their twenties
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Ali Abdaal:That have a safety net from their parents. And yet still the thought I might, quote, fall behind Yeah. And, like, fall behind my friends who are then getting that promotion at McKinsey or whatever the thing might be is preventing people from making a decision. It. This is very unlikely to regret.
Ali Abdaal:So I try and, like, nudge that as much as possible.
Ryan Holiday:Well, I I got so lucky when I dropped out of college because I I've talked about this before, but when I went in there, I was like, I'm here to whenever you want. There were some consequences like I I remember I was signing I signed something and it was like, your scholarship may not be here when you're back. About. As an adult now, I realized they probably just would've given it to me again. But, like, so there it wasn't totally without cost, but it there was the idea about it.
Ryan Holiday:That, like, I thought it was this permanent, irrevocable lifestyle decision
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Ryan Holiday:When in fact, it was a pause. About it. And you think, hey. I'm gonna leave this to go do this. I'm gonna go give this a try.
Ryan Holiday:I'm gonna open this coffee shop. And you think you can never go back. Yeah. It. And, of course, you can go back.
Ryan Holiday:If you're in the hospital for a year, would you be sitting there going, I can never go back to my job. No. You would know about it. There's gonna it's gonna be an adjustment period. I might have some catch up I have to you know, there's but you you just go get another job.
Ryan Holiday:Like, that's how life works.
Speaker 3:About it.
Ryan Holiday:Right? And but especially when you're younger and you don't have the experience, it feels like the shift or the transition or the the quitting about can never be undone. And only with time you realize that the stakes were so much lower than you thought they were.
Speaker 3:Yeah. About.
Ali Abdaal:Yeah. I find the the Tim Ferriss fear setting exercise
Speaker 3:to
Ali Abdaal:be just really helpful.
Ryan Holiday:Actually the worst case scenario.
Ali Abdaal:What's the worst case? And it's like, okay. What does it look like? How How could you mitigate against it? Let's say the worst case does happen.
Ali Abdaal:What can you do to come back to where you currently are or at least some place that's good enough? It. I think I've done that, like, 3 or 4 times in my life. Had the sort of crux of making a big decision. And I've always been like, oh,
Speaker 4:this is really helpful.
Ali Abdaal:Yeah. The worst case is never as bad as we think it is, and recovering from the worst case is also never as hard as we initially think it's gonna be.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. I remember when I was thinking of dropping out. I was talking to this person and And he was telling me I should do it. And I go, you know, what happens if it doesn't work out? You know?
Ryan Holiday:And he he was like when I was in college, he's like, I got mono or he he got something, and he about it. He spent a year recovering. Yeah. And he's like, do you know how many times this has come up in my life that it took me 5 years to graduate from college? About.
Ryan Holiday:Zero times. Nobody knows. Nobody even does the math. You started college at this date. You got your fur like, nobody knows.
Ryan Holiday:It just it about it. As more time goes by, it just all got like, you spent your time in college, now you're not in college. No one's like, oh, but about. What about that year between your sophomore and your junior year? What was that about?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:It never comes up. And his point was like, about If I take this risk and it doesn't work out, I just go back and it takes you 4 years to graduate, 5 years to graduate, whatever. It's about it. It's a it's a rounding error in the big scheme of things.
Speaker 4:That's a good I think it's
Ali Abdaal:so it's this thing that Jeff Bezos says, which is like you know, he's talking about the kind of the game of entrepreneurship, and he's sort of likening it to a baseball match. And he's like, normally in a baseball match, you can either hit 1 to 4 about runs or whatever the number is. I don't know anything about baseball. But he's like, in entrepreneurship, you can take a swing, but, like, the upside of the swing is infinite. About.
Ali Abdaal:Yes. And so if you take enough swings, you can actually get, an outcome that way outperforms what you could have done if you were doing the job thing Sure. For example. It. And I think the you know, I I I wish more people would appreciate the asymmetry of the upside that you get from taking a risk about and doing your own thing potentially?
Ryan Holiday:Right. So you you you understand and you articulate the downside, which is less than you think. And then about It's hard to wrap your head around the fact that the upside could literally be incomprehensible. Like, When Jeff Bezos starts Amazon, he has some idea that it could be successful. Yeah.
Speaker 3:But it would
Ryan Holiday:have been literally impossible to conceive of what it about it. You came. Yeah. Because it didn't exist yet. And when I left, I had this sense that I wanted to be a writer.
Ryan Holiday:And I knew that I thought leaving got me about. Closer a better chance of being that writer than staying. And maybe it's true. Maybe it's not. But, like, the about.
Ryan Holiday:The writing that I ended up doing and the level at which I ended up doing it would have been if I thought that's what I was doing, I should have been about it. Certified. Do you know what I mean? Like, I would've been a sign of a mental illness. Like, the any sense that it.
Ryan Holiday:This is how it was gonna go. Yeah. You know what I mean? So you're just taking it step by step.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I think the the other big
Ali Abdaal:thing that I found really helpful was, about it. You know, back in Jeff's day, we where there were very few examples of what does entrepreneurship look like. Like, these days, it. No one like, people don't have that excuse anymore. Like, if someone wants is even entertaining the thought of being a writer, there are a zillion interviews with professional writers out there.
Ali Abdaal:Sure. Someone's been entrepreneur. There are a zillion interviews with where they're literally talking about how much money they're making. Yeah. Similarly for YouTube and stuff.
Ali Abdaal:And so about Surrounding, I think, an information diet is a really important part of this. Yes. Like, even just watching videos, reading books, and listening to podcasts from people who are doing the thing that you think you want to do about. Helps you realize that, oh, that's a fair fairly normal. They've just been doing it for a while and, oh, that's what the outcome could look like.
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. Like, look, if you're about it. No one no one goes, it must be impossible to be an accountant. How does someone become an accountant? Right?
Ryan Holiday:Because you accountants are everywhere. Right? About it. Although, you know, if you grew up in the inner city and your parents didn't work and you never had it might actually seem about it. Utterly unattainable and impossible to become that thing.
Ryan Holiday:And the reality is it's not. People do it every fucking day. And about it. As I'd say, it's easy, but it is possible. It's very possible.
Ryan Holiday:And if you steep yourself in how possible it is and surround yourself, not physically, but about it. Intellectually with people who have done it, you figure out how it can be done. And and we talk a lot about These days about, like, Nepo babies and nepotism. I think so much of that is if your mom was a famous actress, about it. Sure.
Ryan Holiday:That gives you advantages and introductions, and you're in this sort of milieu that's beneficial. But also, that doesn't seem about it. Impossible or impractical because your mom is doing it, and she's not that great.
Speaker 3:Do you know
Ryan Holiday:what I mean? She's like, you know, you're just like, people do this. It is a job. You see how it works. It's deconstructed and demystified for you in a way that about Allows you to go to give yourself that self assignment.
Ryan Holiday:Like, I could do that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Ali Abdaal:Yeah. The same for me with the medicine stuff. Like, I didn't have any in any official advantage getting into med school. But my both my parents are doctors. About all of my friends' parents are doctors.
Ali Abdaal:Basically, everyone I knew growing up was a doctor. Yeah. And so, like, it doesn't seem that hard.
Ryan Holiday:People become doctors.
Ali Abdaal:People become doctors. It's it's and then, about. You know, it was only when I started applying to med school and stuff where some people, oh my oh my god. You're applying to med. Wow.
Ali Abdaal:That's so hard. Is it? Like, everyone I know is a doctor. Like, it's I think it's that same concept applied to, yeah, anything.
Ryan Holiday:So people probably listening to this towards the end of the year Mhmm. Where they start thinking of habits and resolutions. If someone's like, I wanna be more productive about it. Next year
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Ryan Holiday:What would you tell them?
Ali Abdaal:If someone wants to be more productive next year about. Alright. I've got I've got 3 3 things. Number 1 is actually just figure out about Or at least make a rough first draft of where do you actually want to go? Like, sure, you can be more productive by cranking out more words per day or whatever, but, like, if If you're not trying to be a writer and Yes.
Ryan Holiday:Don't have a vague sense of what productivity is not a goal. Exactly.
Ali Abdaal:Yes. Productivity is like, about sort of an effectiveness measurement en route to a particular goal. And if you don't have that goal, then optimizing for productivity is completely pointless. It. Yeah.
Ali Abdaal:So I think step 1 is to figure out what the goal is. You know, some people don't like the word goal. The the most helpful exercise I've I've ever found for this about is, something called the odyssey plan from the book designing your life by Bill Burnett is and this other guy who's, like, some Stanford professors. About. And, basically, the idea is that you imagine your life 3 to 5 years in the future if you continued down your current path and you write out what it would look like.
Ali Abdaal:Then you go back back to day 1, back to today, and you imagine your life 3 to 5 years from now if you had to take a completely different path, about and then you go back. And then you imagine your life 3 to 5 years from now if you had to take a completely different path, but money was no object and you didn't care about what people thought of you. About. And that just gives you sort of this divergent thinking that most people just never do. And I I personally enjoy, like, doing that exercise every year it.
Ali Abdaal:And then converting it into a okay. What does my 12 month celebration look like? 12 months from now, what would I like to be celebrating in the different realms of life? Health, work, relationships, about joy.
Speaker 3:Those are
Ali Abdaal:the 4 that I like personally. Sure. And now I've got some goals written down. And there's so much evidence that says that people who write down goals the the people who have goals are way more productive than people who don't, and people who write them down are even way more productive than people who don't write them down. So step 1, figure out what your goals are and just write them down.
Ali Abdaal:About. Step 2, I find it super helpful to just convert all of those goals into what is the action I
Speaker 4:have to take each week.
Ali Abdaal:So say if you're, for example, trying to write a book, It might be a daily action of writing for 2 hours a day or a 1000 words or whatever the thing might be. In my case, I'm trying to get fit, and so weight training 3 times 3 or 3 times a week is the habit or the system I'm trying to develop. And then number 3 is about putting all those things in the calendar.
Speaker 3:I
Ali Abdaal:understand. And then if they're in the calendar and you can turn you and you can make yourself the sort of person that does what's in the calendar. It. Honestly, that is, like, 95% of all of all of the world's productivity advice condensed into 3 things. Figure out where you wanna go, turn it into and figure out how you're gonna get there, and then just put it in the calendar and do the thing when it comes around.
Ryan Holiday:With a fresh year coming, what would you recommend people stop doing? Like, what's a what's like a
Speaker 3:about it. A destructive habit
Ryan Holiday:that you would say to get rid of.
Ali Abdaal:A really big one about. That holds everyone back is overthinking. So much research from this book around procrastination was realizing that procrastination is primarily an emotional problem. It. There is some sort of kind of fear of looking bad, fear of failure, self doubt.
Ali Abdaal:About The mind starts to weave all these stories about how we're not good enough to do this particular thing. And, you know, I've I've interviewed a couple of kind of procrast professors in procrastination who've done all the research about this. And their their whole thing is like, you've just gotta find a way to cut through the bullshit that the mind will present present to you and just make a start on the thing. And often procrastination is a problem with getting started because once we get started, the inertia means that we'll just continue going. It.
Ali Abdaal:It's way harder to
Ryan Holiday:Yeah. Objects in motion tend to continue Exactly.
Ali Abdaal:Newton's first law. You know, we talk about that in chapter 4 of the book. So about recognizing that has has really helped me recognize that when the mind is getting in the way, the best thing I can do is just get started with the thing, And then the mind has a habit of just sort of getting out of the way. But if people can stop overthinking and stop letting this fear of self doubt and failure and stuff get in the way getting in the way of living their best life, I I would love that. I would love for that to happen.
Ryan Holiday:Alright. Last question. What's something you feel like the stoics can teach a person who wants
Speaker 3:about it. Feel good productivity.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I think the the main one I always come back
Ali Abdaal:to is the dichotomy of control. About. Epictetus, is it? Oh, yeah. You know, there are some things that are within our control, and there are other things that are not within our control.
Ali Abdaal:And any amount of worrying about the things that are not within our control is usually worry that it's wasted. And I think a big part of feel good productivity is it. Find a way to control the things that you can control. You know, a huge part of what drives intrinsic motivation is the sense of autonomy, a lot about sense of control since we have power over what we're doing. And some people are like, well, you know, I don't have any control over what my boss tells me to do.
Ali Abdaal:I was like, okay. You might not have control over the the the specific thing you have to do, but you might have control over how you choose to approach it. You have control over the process. Can you find a way to make
Speaker 4:it more interesting? Can you find
Ali Abdaal:a way Speed it up. Can you find a way to slow it down? Can you find a way
Speaker 4:to I don't know. Add music in
Ali Abdaal:the background to make it more interesting. There is always control that we can take about In basically every situation, even in situations where we feel like we have none. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And
Ali Abdaal:there's that quote from Viktor Frankl where he's, you know, in Auschwitz and is sort of surrounded by, you you know, the German concentration camps and everything. And even in those in that scenario where he's got he and his fellow inmates have no control over anything at all, at least they re retain control over their own mind
Speaker 3:Yes.
Ali Abdaal:And over the how they choose to approach the the the situation. So even in the most extreme of situations, We can find the things that we can control, and we can focus on controlling those. And I think that's such a nice idea from stoicism that I I always come back to.
Ryan Holiday:No. It's very well said. I I my productivity advice from the Productivity advice from the stoics would be a question. Mark Cerro says you have to ask yourself every moment, is this essential? About He says, because most of what we do and say is not essential.
Ryan Holiday:And he says, when you eliminate the inessential, you get the double benefit about doing the essential things better. And so when I think about how I'm able to do what I do, about it. There's the things that I don't do, that I've stopped doing or that I have delegated someone to do or that I have brought on a team to scale being able to do. About it. And when you get rid of the wasted movements, or the wasted thoughts, or you stop chasing the things that don't matter, or move the needle, about it.
Ryan Holiday:You find that actually I mean, it takes a lot of energy to be great at something, but it's less than people think. You know what I mean? Like, I about it. I think
Speaker 3:maybe someone would assume that, like, a
Ryan Holiday:writer writes 10 hours a day, but it's like 2. Mhmm. You know what I mean? You think that, it. You know, an athlete is practicing and lifting weights and training all the time, but, you know, they're also taking long naps during the day.
Ryan Holiday:And you know what I and they about it. And they built a lifestyle where someone's cooking for them and the team takes them from place to, like they've also eliminated so much about. Of what is inessential that just concentrated burst of the essential thing allows them about. To be best in the world at what they do.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. And, yeah,
Ali Abdaal:I just wanted to say thank you so much for all your advice and tips and stuff over the last 3 plus years of of this book coming together.
Ryan Holiday:Crush. Fingers crossed, but that's not a thing
Ali Abdaal:I can control. So Yeah. I'm not gonna think too hard about it.
Ryan Holiday:But it already did the way to think about it is that it already did crush and that about It exists.
Ali Abdaal:It exists.
Ryan Holiday:So that would be
Ali Abdaal:more that
Ryan Holiday:would be more satisfying if this was the actual book.
Ali Abdaal:The hardback. This is the Advanced reader copy that we sent away.
Ryan Holiday:They're deliberately, very flaccid, unfortunately, but, it doesn't have the satisfying cred of a about it. Earth side of a, of a hardcover. But it exists. And so literally every person that reads it, even if that's about it. 7 people and 3 of them are related to you.
Ryan Holiday:Mhmm. It's all extra. Yeah. True.
Ali Abdaal:It's all extra. Nice. Sweet, man. Well, thanks.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Ali Abdaal:About it.
Speaker 4:Alright. So that's it for this week's episode of deep dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast are gonna be linked down in the video description or in the show notes depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If you're Listening to this on a podcast platform, then do please leave us a review on the Itunes store.
Speaker 4:It really helps other people discover the podcast. Or if you're watching this in full HD or 4 k on YouTube, then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode. That would be awesome. And if you enjoyed this episode, you might like to check out this episode here as well, which about it. Links in with some of the stuff that we talked about in the episode.
Speaker 4:So thanks for watching. Do hit the subscribe button if
Ali Abdaal:you aren't already, and I'll
Speaker 4:see you next time. Bye bye.