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Alison Geskin talks with some of the most successful leaders from around the globe. She discovers what they're doing, why they're doing it, and what impact they've made.
[00:00:00] Shed. This is such a pinch me moment from working side by side with Simon Sinek to leading your own global movement around Speak Up culture. I am so thrilled. I am so thrilled for myself, for the audience, for everyone who's listening for the world to have you here.
[00:00:24] I have a question for you. It started off, uh, you know, you said it all started off with a bath with a bump in the bathroom.
[00:00:33] Okay.
[00:00:35] When you met Simon.
[00:00:37] Oh, right. It was a bump in the bathroom or close by.
[00:00:41] How did
[00:00:41] that happen? Yeah, that, so that was, oh, that would've been November, 2010. and so I, I graduated from biz school in London, Ontario, Ivy Business School, which I loved my experience there.
[00:00:58] Mm-hmm. And my first job out of biz school was with Petro Canada, turned Suncorp, Petro Canada. I know you being from Alberta know it, know it well. and on my first day ever, which was I think September 7th, 2009, a thousand people were let go post-merger sighting, post-merger synergies. And so that was my first day.
[00:01:24] and I walked in as many more, were walking out boxes in hand. And so I, I entered into a awkward moment. I entered into a tumultuous moment, for an organization, understandably, and I felt as though I had sort of a front row seat to organizational behavior, the impact of how leaders behave and communicate for better or for worse in those crucial moments.
[00:01:49] And so that was interesting. and I, I fell. I, I don't wanna say fell out of love 'cause I didn't, I don't know if I ever loved it. But I, uh, a few months in about four or five months in, I realized I don't think I want to grow my entire career here. and which was a really hard pill to swallow, a very hard realization.
[00:02:13] but, you know, you can't unknow what you know. Mm-hmm. And, uh, some months later, I had a ton of reflection in that time, which I'm happy to speak more about. But specifically with Simon, someone had a, a, a friend turned mentor very quickly. I said to him, 'cause I was being moved into a marketing role, and I said to him, I don't know if I can do marketing for an organization that I don't believe what they sell and how they sell it.
[00:02:38] And he said, watch this talk. And he sent me Simon Sinek start with Why Golden Circle. Yeah. why, how, what talk that millions of us have seen. And, I successfully procrastinated from watching that video for about two months. and then one day watched it and loved it and just like had a puppy dog, sort of, huh?
[00:03:02] Everything this guy says to be, you know, everything this guy says is true. I just hadn't thought about it or communicated it that way. And then some months later, would've been. Uh, yeah. It would've been like a few months later I went to a talk in Toronto. The Art of Management. The Art of does a series of events in Canada and they did an Art of Management talk and Mitch Joel gave a talk and Malcolm Gladwell gave a talk and I went to go hear Malcolm.
[00:03:31] And my now friend Ron Tight was the mc, and Simon was the closing keynote and he spoke just after Malcolm. Wow. And I was, I was already sharing. Simon's video in the Golden Circle and writing circles on napkins and explaining the little simple idea that was profound and powerful to as many people that would listen.
[00:03:50] And I went to this event not knowing that he was the closing keynote, and so I had a chance to ask him a question on authenticity during the the talk, which was good fun. And then I literally bumped into him. I, I'm pretty sure we, we used the, the restroom at the same time and I didn't feel it was appropriate to say hello there.
[00:04:09] But after washing and drying hands, we like literally bumped into each other in the hall. And I said, I'm, I'm a big fan and I'm gonna read your book. and that sort of one thing led to another and I ended up joining him and his team for, gosh, more than 10 years. And I do, do still do some work with his message and, and his team to this day.
[00:04:28] Incredible, incredible. Let me ask you this, Two questions. What did you learn about leadership? From the beginning. In those early, early days, what did you learn about movement
[00:04:43] mm-hmm. And
[00:04:44] movement that Simon had started, and then of course your movement into worth and speaking up.
[00:04:50] Yeah.
[00:04:53] You know, when you've spent your whole entire life working with and developing leaders everywhere, I'm really cur curious.
[00:04:59] Yeah.
[00:05:00] What did you learn? And then what did you, how do you define leadership?
[00:05:04] Ooh, cool.
[00:05:06] Um,
[00:05:06] okay. So I've learned a bunch. I mean the, the things I've learned directly from Simon, which I think answers your question as well, and what have I learned about movement mm-hmm.
[00:05:19] As well as leadership, and then happy to talk about a definition of leadership, which is actually my most recent work. I've been doing a lot on that recently. T um, I learned two, two of the biggest things I've learned from Simon, his, his leadership and, and movement, leading movement and building movement.
[00:05:37] So, simple ideas are easy to understand. Ideas that are simple can be repeated. Ideas that are repeated can change the world. And so part of Simon's brilliance is his ability to take often disparate and complex ideas and communicate them in simple ways. Mm-hmm. And for a movement to grow, A, it can't belong to any, to any one person.
[00:06:01] you know, Martin Luther King Jr. Is a great example. He's no longer with us, but like, it wasn't him who was the leader, like it, he was one of the leaders. But anyone, myself included, yourself included to this day, can take up a more just, uh, equal inclusive society as, as part of our mission, passion, purpose cause.
[00:06:24] and so the, the movement a a it, it serves to define, if you just say the movement Well, the movement of what, there are many movements mm-hmm. That's on Simons team. We call it the inspired, safe and fulfilled movement, like the movement to inspire the movement to create a more inspired, safe and fulfilled world of which I am part of contributing toward that movement.
[00:06:46] Yes. All leaders are followers. Every single leader, every single leader follows other leaders, and every single leader follows a cause and devotes themselves to a cause bigger than themselves and devotes themselves to other human beings. It's why I harp against the term servant leadership. Like, like we're saying, the same thing to lead, to serve.
[00:07:08] If you ain't serving, you ain't leading. Right. And, and we serve a cause and we serve people. Yes. Um, so that's one. The other is in inside out, you cannot lead an organization or lead a movement if you, or the only, I'll say it in the positive. The only way you can sustainably lead an organization and, and lead a movement is if it is led from the inside out.
[00:07:36] And, and definitely that has cultural ramifications in terms of the health and strength and thriving of a culture. but I'm really proud that for my entire time on Simon's team, I formally had a cultural leadership role in my job description. And I insisted because I, no matter the work that I did with external products or customer service, um, or keynotes and workshops and all these external facing theme themes, my number one priority always was ensuring that we live what we preach from the inside out.
[00:08:13] Because if we didn't, we should stop.
[00:08:15] Yeah,
[00:08:16] we should just stop every, stop the train, stop the line.
[00:08:18] Why is that so important to you? Why is that the hard stop for you?
[00:08:22] Well be because if you aren't doing that, you're a hypocrite. Yeah. If, if you aren't like, and, and it isn't about perfection, you mess up because you're human, but when you mess up, you have to be introspective and take accountability and work to improve upon it and own it.
[00:08:39] Yes. So, you know, it's like the cobbler's child has no shoes. We gotta make sure everyone on this team has shoes. and, and even if folks are off boarded or let go or aren't a fit, or we have to change roles or whatever, how do we still do that in a way that is representative of what we say that we're about?
[00:08:59] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it's.
[00:09:02] It's the big challenge. Like I, I wrote a book called Speak Up Culture, and I have certain tenants in that book and like, it's inconvenient. Like I've written a book that I'm like, gosh, I have to live up to that standard. I don't nail it all the time. And I, and I particularly don't nail it with the people that are closest to me all the time.
[00:09:21] My wife and my kids, my siblings, my parents, my dear friends, colleagues, and team members I've worked with for years. Like it's really easy to, or easier to follow the tenets of my book in a podcast conversation or with a client. But the, like, that's intensity, you know, and that's easier to do or fake. But the real hard work is the consistency and the, gosh, I just didn't behave in a way that is representative of who I want to be.
[00:09:53] That's called regret. And Regret is powerful because regret reveals to us our values and an opportunity to, to clean it up and own it.
[00:10:01] Oh, I love that. In your experience, how many people lean into cleaning up and owning it? Oh,
[00:10:09] I mean, I don't, I, I don't know if that can be quantified, but I, I, I do think that, that, I don't know if that can be quantified.
[00:10:18] Mm-hmm. Um, I think it is, it is rare. Uh, I just think it's key and fundamental. Yes. What, what, whatever the number is, I am a, I devote my life and career to practice that. Again, I don't nail it all the time. and that's the point. And I've devoted my life and careers work to that work of helping. people, particularly peoples, in roles of leadership, realize the power of the role and realize that their whisper is a shout and their tiptoes are stomps and that they can own it.
[00:10:54] And sometimes it isn't about intention. Sometimes we have the right intention, but the impact is different than what we intended. and do we do the work to get curious about that impact? Yes. And still own that impact even if it wasn't our intention. Which doesn't let others off the hook, but it certainly doesn't let us off the hook.
[00:11:13] Yes, yes, yes. And so did that give birth to the SpeakUp culture?
[00:11:18] yeah. So I mean, a, a few things gave birth to the speak of culture. Yeah. One was growing up with a stutter. So I know intimately what it feels like to be voiceless because there are have been numerous moments in my. life where I've chosen not to use my voice out of fear, embarrassment, not wanting to, not thinking that I could.
[00:11:38] Mm-hmm. I later, I later married a speech pathologist, which was a very good choice. Um, uh, and I've come to realize that the feeling of voicelessness is universal. Yes. Uh, you don't need a speech impediment. You don't need to be speaking in a language that isn't your mother tongue to feel voiceless.
[00:11:57] That is a, a universal experience and it is an experience that we can have in different contexts, that we can feel safe and worth it to speak up in some context and feel that it isn't safe and worth it to speak up in other contexts, sometimes with the same or similar people. so that was one birthplace was growing up with a stutter.
[00:12:16] And then the other was that initial moment in my career of seeing a thousand people let go and seeing how. A lot of people shrunk in fear and it did not feel psychologically safe or worth it to use their voice. Mm-hmm. Um, and then an experience of, of both work that I've witnessed with clients and friends as well as my own experiences of, there was a time in my career when I, where I spoke up feeling that I was doing the right thing.
[00:12:45] Mm-hmm. And, turns out I did something taboo for that culture. And though I was following my own ethics, integrity, values and following what I thought were the ethics, integrity, and values of the team and the organization, it turns out I said the wrong thing to the wrong person. and I was punished.
[00:13:05] I was ignored, and I was punished and gaslit like I was made wrong. and so that was a real like, wow sorta, rug pulled out from under my feet moment of, oh, like we say, there's a speak up culture, but. With the politics of only if you say this thing to that person in this way and don't talk about this.
[00:13:27] You know, if you have a culture where you, we, we can speak about anything except these three landmines. It's like, that ain't a speak up culture that's called, uh, you know, you red or yellow tape around certain taboo topics. Yeah. So that, that was another big sort of Oh, interesting. Mm-hmm. That made me very curious, uh, about a SpeakUp culture and how to help cultivate them.
[00:13:50] So let me ask you this. In, in all of your work, would you say that
[00:13:56] it does not surprise you how many cultures or how many cultures, corporate cultures that is? Mm-hmm. Say that we have open door policies and we're just like family and we want you to speak up, but we really, really don't. So, I mean, impact of the worth that, that, that, that scratches in all of us. Yeah. Well, I think it goes back to the comment before around being hypocritical or saying something, but not really meaning it.
[00:14:28] Mm-hmm. I mean, I think a couple things. A, I'm not against open door policies. I'm okay with them, but that cannot be your only policy. Yes. Um, because an open door policy is inherently passive. And also sometimes your door should be closed. Mm-hmm. Like you're allowed to do deep focus work. You probably should have certain conversations in private, particularly if you're in a formal leadership role.
[00:14:52] And so this notion of, well, my door is always open, why didn't anyone speak up? Well, it assumes that people feel that it's safe and worth it and have the competencies, confidence skills to knock on the door and walk in. And so. I'm for a selective, open, door policy. 'cause again, our doors should be closed sometimes, but I'm also in favour of an active roam the halls physically or virtually.
[00:15:17] Um, and it's hard on remote or, or, or virtual teams because we can't just poke our head out and say, Hey, Nancy, hey Mohamed, like, help me with this. Or, I have a question for you, or, how you doing? Yeah. And so when we're, we're remote, just the thinking of you or going for walking meetings or having frequent check-ins.
[00:15:36] Like it takes intentional effort to, to manufacture that serendipity that we have when we're physically in the same place. the whole, we're like family. I mean, we're not. And unless it is a family business of which every single person is actually a member of the family, I don't think the goal should be, we are a family Now, if people who are part of the organization say that it feels like a family.
[00:16:05] Okay. Like that can be positive. Yes. Um, to me it should be a community, uh, a team. community is a group of people who ag, who agree to grow together. Mm-hmm. Now we're talking. Yes. Um, now we're, you know, we're, yeah. So, I think time. Anyone, especially leaders, because they're, again, their whisper is a shout.
[00:16:30] Their voice is, is amplified. Mm-hmm. If, if a, if a leader says something that is not the compassionate and accurate representation of what someone who's part of the team or organization feels like, the response will be apathy, futility, resentment. It'll be not for me.
[00:16:49] Yes.
[00:16:50] And so we've, we've gotta be mindful, and when leaders communicate aspirationally, that's okay.
[00:16:56] But there also needs to be an acknowledgement that there's a gap and that our opportunity is to close that gap.
[00:17:03] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. what would you say to our listeners, and I know that there are many who are perhaps in this same spot, what would you say to our listeners that are leaders that, Have an open door policy mm-hmm.
[00:17:19] And, uh, don't have anyone coming through that open door.
[00:17:22] Yeah.
[00:17:23] Or, or when you're working with a leader and you, uh, send them off on a little journey to go solicit maybe a little tiny 360 up, down across, how am I doing? And they come back and say, I didn't get anything.
[00:17:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah. What
[00:17:36] does that tell you and what advice would you give them?
[00:17:39] Okay, so a couple of scenarios. So one is, uh, let's start with the, the last one first. So if you, if you solicit and ask for feedback and what you get is silence or what you get is all, all good, you know, likely they don't feel that it is safe or worth it to share their actual opinion. so which also means.
[00:17:59] If all you're hearing back is negativity and all you're hearing back is complaints, that's actually better than silence. Mm-hmm. This is a really hard thing, and one of the things that I work with, with leaders, especially when they're starting to implement a speak up culture, and they're like, we have a great culture, but like anytime we ask for feedback, it's always negative and they, and people don't understand the larger context of what's going on.
[00:18:23] And I'm like, uh, okay. Two things. One, it's your responsibility to articulate the larger context. So if you're not, you're not communicating as well as you think you are, and you don't yet have a system of communication that is robust and healthy, that's on you. But the other piece is, if given the choice between silence and only critical feedback, I'd choose only cri critical feedback.
[00:18:44] Mm-hmm. Also, if given the choice between silence and no feedback versus anonymous feedback, I'd rather anonymous feedback than nothing. And even with anonymous feedback, you can gather if. Themes and then go out and have conversations. You know, like, so I, I have, I lead two teams. One of those teams is in, is in my home.
[00:19:05] It's co-led with my co CEO, my wife Julie. And we have two subordinates, our nine and a half, and six and six and a half year old kids who are great, wonderful teammates. We're working on our six and a half year old, you know, initiative when it comes to cleaning up after himself. Anyway, we care deeply that my kids, Sophie and Jack, feel that they're a part of this family.
[00:19:25] Feel that they belong, feel that they matter. Feel that their voice matters 100%. I could say to them, dear Jack, dear Sophie. Your mother and I, the co-CEOs of this household believe so deeply that you feel that you matter, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Kindly click on this link, fill out the survey and we'll never talk about it again.
[00:19:42] Right. That's so many people's approach. now I'm not against survey. Mm-hmm. But if you do survey and you don't dig in and you don't debrief. It's meaningless and in, in fact you can do more damage than you do. Good. My favorite, um, survey question on engagement surveys is how likely do you feel that any change will be affected because of you and team members filling out this survey?
[00:20:07] And if you have a low answer to that, good luck asking them to fill it out next year or next quarter, whatever it is. Indeed it is both the survey, the formal ways of gathering feedback as well as the informal. And formally meeting with your team, debriefing, taking Jack and Sophie out for a walk or for ice cream and saying, we got the results back.
[00:20:27] These are some of the themes. Can you tell me more? And particularly when you hear negative or critical things, that's the time to say thank you and tell me more. Not get critical in response or tell them that they're wrong. Yeah. A great way to ensure that they, they show up with silence next time. For sure.
[00:20:42] So, and then when it comes to, okay, my office door is open, but no one's coming in. I recently heard a leader say, you know, get some jelly beans in your office. Like, make your office fun. put up a dart board, have something, have, treat something like, make it a destination and invite people in. Mm-hmm.
[00:21:01] and, solicit and actively go out into the halls physically or virtually, and bring the bowl of jelly beans with you if you like.
[00:21:09] I love that. I love that. Why do you think so many leaders mistake or, or, uh, not mistake, but um, ride the edge of the sword between keeping the peace and psychological safety?
[00:21:24] Oh yeah. So those aren't the same thing. Yeah. So you, so it's kind of like a culture of nice versus a culture of kind. Mm-hmm. But if, if it's like harmony above all else mm-hmm. You are missing the fact that human beings, it's not like, you know, like when you get a, like a new iPhone, it just automatically updates.
[00:21:47] That's not how human beings work. I don't know what you're thinking or feeling 100% of the time, all the time. Mm-hmm. I have to get curious. I have to ask. And so, a huge sort of hallmark and, and tell tale of a SpeakUp culture is, do we have the ability to disagree and debate well? Yes. Um, and it is not about us, uh, agreeing, getting along.
[00:22:11] it is not a passive culture of Nice. It is an active culture of kind. And I can both, like if there's any one skill and competency we have to work on as a species right now mm-hmm. In our divided algorithmic world Yes. Is the ability for you and I to get curious to disagree and still respect each other on the other end.
[00:22:35] it is so pivotal. Yes. Um, you know, and I'm sure there are many things that you and I agree upon, and there have to be things that you and I see differently or have different, have had different experiences on. That's the Absolutely. That's the beautiful spectrum. And, and, and sorta, yeah. That's just what it means to be human.
[00:22:54] So. yeah, we, we can disagree, debate and respect, and though I'm not a fan of, disagree and commit as a default strategy mm-hmm. There are moments where it does make sense to disagree, align, and then commit even if we don't all, you know, wholeheartedly agree that this is the right thing to do in my way, but we can disagree, align, and commit from time to time.
[00:23:19] Yes. Well, at the end of the day, I challenge anybody. I feel, uh, I know for myself, I don't even agree with myself half the time. So how. How do we, how do we have that standard with anybody else? For goodness sakes.
[00:23:31] That's actually my favorite, my favorite Adam Grant quote from his book. Think Again is you don't have to agree with everything I say.
[00:23:37] I don't agree with everything that I say. You know? And that's part of what it means to be human is yes, we think something five minutes ago, or five months ago, or five years ago. And it evolves. Yes. Um, that's a special, unique, uh, experience of being human.
[00:23:52] I love that. About being human as long as we lean into that part of, of being human.
[00:23:57] Yeah. Yeah. And that contradiction, that healthy contradiction.
[00:24:01] Absolutely. Absolutely. let's talk a little bit about the high cost of silence and tie to speaking up and the tie to worth. You know, you've said that silence looks like alignment, but hides the f but hides fear. Can you share a story, where silence became costly, whether or not that was for a team or for a leader, or even for you personally?
[00:24:24] And why do we as humans still really struggle with, with, uh, there's so many things that we think, but we feel we cannot say them.
[00:24:33] Yeah. Not
[00:24:34] our own conditioning, our own lack of self worth, our own confidence. We often put a lot of our own barriers in our own way that aren't necessarily there.
[00:24:45] Mm-hmm. Yep.
[00:24:46] That's a big question. Sorry. So,
[00:24:48] yeah, no, no, that's great. So there, there are so many examples. Yeah. and some of them are very well known and very public. One of the reasons that I like to study. industries and organizations where the cost is life or death is because the lessons are just amplified.
[00:25:05] Mm-hmm. And so, I mean, I think it happens every day where people choose silence over speaking out 'cause it's safer or they've, they themselves, uh, or they have seen others be burned, punished, ignored, whatever it might be. Or it's just simply hard. Like it takes courage and bravery and vulnerability to say the thing or contradict like it is not easy to do.
[00:25:25] Yeah. you know, famous examples recently, it's the Titans submersible where, where, number of times people spoke up and said this is not. Sound engineering, the Boeing 7 37 max, which I prominently, put in in the book as well, where one Maine, someone who became a whistleblower, ed Pearson, he's an interesting case because he continues to advocate and speak up, not because he feels safe doing so, but he feels called to.
[00:25:52] and that's really interesting where it isn't safe, but it's still worth it. Mm-hmm. and there's a example I use in the book as well. There's, there's an example that, uh, was shared in an MBA class of someone who was studying in their MBA, but their previous job was on an oil rig. Okay. And there is an, there is an, uh, a situation where a mistake had been made, a drill bit had been inappropriately installed, and there was damage and a spill.
[00:26:21] And so the general manager of this rig called an all hands meeting and said, this is what happened. Who's responsible for it? We need to clean it up and learn from it. Mm-hmm. And someone, realized, oh my, like that was me. They raised their hand and in front of all hands on deck said, you're fired. And that is a perfect way.
[00:26:43] Now, if you had said, we need to know who's responsible so that we can take appropriate action mm-hmm. You know, or appropriate consequence or whatever, but you said we need to learn from it. Well, you just fired the person publicly. who's your number one source of being learning, right?
[00:27:03] Yes. Um, so that's a brilliant example. And. What do you think the people who remain on that crew feel? Yeah. Particularly if a mistake is made, don't take accountability 'cause you'll just be punished. spend more time hiding it under the, under the rug.
[00:27:20] Yes. So more e os can happen.
[00:27:23] What's, what's, what's e, e and o?
[00:27:25] Like error and like an error and a, and a mission.
[00:27:28] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:27:29] Like more accidents can happen 'cause they hide. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Yeah.
[00:27:34] So I, I, I do think that some of us do choose silence as a default. Yeah. And that could be part of our upbringing. That could be, you know, just the experience of being human.
[00:27:44] And it's hard to speak up or challenge authority, which means that it is so much up to those who do have authority and influence to set a culture where they actually do wish to hear from people. They encourage folks to use their voice and they reward them more so intrinsically when they do, particularly when folks speak up with hard news or hard things to hear.
[00:28:06] Mm-hmm. You know, we really are social animals and I do believe we take more of our cues from behavior than we do from words.
[00:28:18] Oh yeah.
[00:28:19] Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So it's that signal, it's that conditioning.
[00:28:23] Mm-hmm.
[00:28:24] You know, you look at that person that, uh, put their hand up, that was me. What do you think the chances are, and that person's rest of their working career is ever going to do that again?
[00:28:34] It'll be harder. It'll be harder because we all bring sort of a emotional backpack with us wherever we, we go. Um. Mm-hmm. And it will take rewiring. I hope that they either join or they create a, a culture where they go, I've been burned in the past. I do not want that to be the experience of the people around me.
[00:28:53] So we, we can have reverse mentors. We can be like, well, I'm not gonna lead that way. I'm gonna lead that way.
[00:29:00] Yes. You know? Yes.
[00:29:01] Um, yeah.
[00:29:03] In your opinion, what advice can you give, to leaders who are struggling with this? How, what advice would you give them to make it feel worth it for people to risk honesty?
[00:29:17] Yeah, I think you need to model what you expect to see. Mm-hmm. And that can be, you know, like we all say, vulnerability is a superpower. Well, and authenticity is a superpower. Well. It's vulnerability plus context is a superpower. Yes. Because vulnerability without context is oversharing. Right. And it might, might not be appropriate.
[00:29:41] Mm-hmm. So I do think that leaders ought to model. So one of my favorite examples of this comes from Alan Mully. So Alan Mully used to be a senior exec at Boeing Commercial back when it was healthier. and then he took over at Ford Motor Company, I think it was 2004, and he was taking over from a Ford family member who had the reputation of being a bit more Tyra than effective as a, as a leader.
[00:30:06] And so the leadership team that Allen inherited, had already been. Conditioned, uh, don't speak up. You know, they, they would do project status meetings that were watermelon meetings, you know, green on the outside, but red on the inside. Um, but they saw, they saw that if you, if you shared a red or a yellow Yeah.
[00:30:28] You just weren't at the next meeting. And so everyone was conditioned. Just say, green, you know, don't be the problem. Don't rock the boat. And so this is the culture that Mully inherited and he had to shift it. Yes. And so after a few weeks of this sort of charade, he finally said, alright, like, I'm done with this.
[00:30:48] either, uh, you're lying to me, you're lying to yourselves, or your people are lying to you. There's no way everything is hunky dory. Just look at our balance sheet. Hmm. Like, this is not a healthy company. If we're gonna turn this thing around, we have to embrace transparency and we have to embrace the truth.
[00:31:07] Now who has a problem and how can we help fix it? And one person, Mark Fields, who became Mulally's successor, said, I got something. He took a risk, right? But he said, all right, I trust Alan. Like I'm gonna take a risk. This wasn't my experience in the past, but here we go. You know, I've got a problem.
[00:31:27] Mulally literally stood up and gave him a standing ovation and said, thank you, mark. More of that who can help? Mark Someone else said, I can help Mark. Right? And the next meeting, mark was informally promoted and his, seat was put next to Mulally, as if to say more of that. and Muli helped with Mark Fields and many others helped turn that company around.
[00:31:52] And Ford was the only company that didn't require a government bailout during the oh 8 0 9 recession. So, that's one of my favorite stories of how do you actually. Turn a culture around, particularly when you inherit one that isn't healthy and isn't a SpeakUp culture.
[00:32:08] Yeah. Do you think that le do you think that leaders day to day their front of their minds or on their back of the minds, do you think they actually think about signaling?
[00:32:17] meaning like what signals am I, uh, sharing with the people around me, either on, on purpose or inadvertently? Is that what you mean? Yeah. Like the great story of the the next time we're meeting, this is your seat. That's the signal. Ah, I didn't have to anything, we didn't have to talk about it.
[00:32:32] That we didn't have to have a memo. We didn't have to have five meetings. I just moved him to here.
[00:32:37] Yeah. Yeah. Because we want
[00:32:38] more of this.
[00:32:40] Yeah.
[00:32:40] Signaling so powerful over words.
[00:32:44] Mm-hmm. For sure. I remember I did a, a workshop. with a great, company in the western part of the US and they were a home builder and just like a, just a great company, well led, emotions.
[00:32:59] Welcome. And so we were taking a room full of like early, mostly male construction leaders, through, you know, purpose and values exploration work. And, and there one of the, one of the very senior leaders, he was either president or CEO, one of the two, um, made it a point to early on in the day, share a story that made him cry.
[00:33:32] Oh. and he did it on purpose. Yeah. And he didn't design it with us. He didn't tell us. We thanked him and his counterpart. another senior leader came to us after and said, you know, he did that on purpose. And we're like, yeah. He said he was, he was working to raise the emotional lid of the room. He knew that if, he appropriately showed emotion and appropriately shared a personal but relevant story, it would signal to the room, this is allowed here.
[00:34:03] Mm-hmm. This is okay. Especially in the context of this workshop and beyond. and so he very intentionally did it. so yeah, I think the really effective, good smart leaders are aware of, they are constantly communication vessels, whether they wanna be or not. there's actually a great story. When I was on Simon's team and we were in early days on in COVID and we were, Figuring out how to create the future of this company because the vast majority of our revenue came from hopping on planes and doing keynotes and workshops physically in rooms. That wasn't gonna happen. And that became very clear. It wasn't gonna happen for some time. So we had to pivot what we did. And our main idea was we were gonna open up like a live virtual auditorium to anyone who wanted to learn with us.
[00:34:54] And it was awesome and fun, and we did some great work as we were working on it. There was a decision that we made early on that we felt was the right decision. And then about three weeks later we realized, oops, wrong decision. You know, that choice you made three weeks ago was the wrong choice. And so we were in a meeting with, our CEO, and we shared with her that we, we made the wrong decision and we need to pivot and make this decision.
[00:35:24] And she was under stress. She was leading a company, she was trying to keep everyone employed, trying to keep payroll going, like she was pissed. She's like, she was like, but we made the decision three weeks ago. And we're like, yeah, but like, we now know what we didn't know, and this is the right way. And we could keep going down the path with the wrong decision, but it's just inevitable.
[00:35:45] Like we can't unsee what we see. We made the wrong choice. And she said, okay. I'm pissed, but that's about me, not about you. I trust you. I'm gonna step away for a few minutes to like, collect myself before I derail this meeting. And she turned off her camera and went off mute and she took a walk and sure enough, 15 minutes or less later, she came back and she went, okay, I'm all in.
[00:36:10] What do you need? Where, where are we? How can I help? And it was such like a brilliant display for me of, emotional self-regulation, of maturity, of like, I'm pissed, but that's about me. It's not about you. I trust you. Carry on. I'll be back. And I really appreciated that. I thought it was a great display of leadership.
[00:36:30] Well, because it made you feel safe and it made you feel worthy.
[00:36:33] Mm-hmm.
[00:36:34] Yes.
[00:36:35] Yeah. Yeah. And she trusted us and, you know, and realized that her reaction was less about us and more about her, and she took responsibility for that, which I, I, I loved.
[00:36:46] Oh, I love that. I love
[00:36:50] it was interesting 'cause I later debriefed it with her.
[00:36:53] Yeah. And she thought she had failed. And I went, no, really? That was a, I'm like, thank you. Like that was a brilliant display of you were honest, you were raw, and you empowered us all at the same time. So I went outta my way to let her know that that was appreciated.
[00:37:07] Oh, I love this. I love this. I love this.
[00:37:09] I love this. What, what, what advice would you give or a takeaway for the leaders that are listening? how can leaders spot and nurture those quiet, those quieter forms of courage? Because I think that that was courage.
[00:37:25] so sorry. How can leaders encourage and
[00:37:28] mature that's, yeah. You know, the, the quieter forms of courage, so mm-hmm.
[00:37:33] You think about all the choices that she made in that moment. Yeah. On in terms of how she could show up, and then the ripple effect of that impact. Yeah. And so leaders are listening and they're listening to, and they take away this aha moment, and I hope that they do. Mm-hmm. Which is how they show up.
[00:37:51] What are you signaling? Yeah. And then so, you know, how do you close the loop for the leaders that are listening? How can they spot, how can they get better at nurturing sort of those quieter forms of courage when it comes to worth, when it comes to speaking up.
[00:38:06] Yeah, so one of the issues or hurdles, hurdles or challenges with a speak up culture is it's not about just hearing the same loud voices over and over again.
[00:38:20] The true test of a speak up culture is, are we hearing from the most diverse set of voices? Which includes introverts and analytical folks, and folks whose language, you know, English, if you're meeting in English isn't their first language or marginalized folks, whether it's by gender, race, back, like all the things.
[00:38:39] Yes. Are we hearing from a diverse set of voices? Because if we're only hearing from the same loudest voices, that ain't a speak speak up cul culture, that's just a culture where the, the same extroverted, suck ups keep, keep talking. Right? Yeah. And so there's sort of a sweet spot when it comes to a speak up culture, which includes tact, decency, respect, situational awareness, emotional intelligence, um, and a diverse set of voices.
[00:39:06] A speak up culture is not sucking up. And a speak up culture is not license to be a jerk and get away with it. Which is key because people will say, oh, I'm just being, I'm just being my authentic self. It's like, well, here we go. Here we go. Heal your authentic self has negative impact. Yeah. Uh, uhhuh, it's, you know, you, we want you to be your authentic self, but also your authentic self needs to take responsibility and ownership if you have a negative impact on the people around you.
[00:39:29] Even if unintended as we discussed. Yes. And so, there are often quiet leaders mm-hmm. Leaders who lead with action. And what's interesting is when quieter folks speak up, we tend to listen more is we're like, oh my God, they're talking right now. That's really. An opportunity to give them space not to interrupt.
[00:39:53] Right. Oftentimes introverted and analytical folks, they think and then speak, whereas creative, extroverted folks, I'm assuming, like you and I speak to think Yes. Right? Mm-hmm. And so this is why a, a pre-read is really valuable. Yeah. Your extroverts aren't gonna read it, but your introverts and analytical folks will, and they can bring their thinking to the meeting.
[00:40:18] Mm-hmm. When quieter folks do, do speak up, give them space, let them fumble, let them think. Right? We live in a society, especially in North America, where we've conflated extroversion and charisma with leadership. No, not ever. Nope, nope, nope. Yep. And I say this as a particularly extroverted and charismatic person.
[00:40:37] Like people like me, sometimes I will speak up because I like to, not because I should be, or it serves. And so it's now, it's fortunate that I've chosen a career path that affords me to speak, but I still have to listen and I still need to zip it. So, so yeah, I, I think that the true test of your SpeakUp culture is, are you hearing from the most diverse set of voices possible?
[00:41:02] Yes. And are you designing experiences with pre-reads and meetings and, hey, we, we, we haven't heard from a good chunk of you. I'd love to hear from a few of you we haven't heard from yet. Particularly if you have a dissenting point of view. Yes. And when the dissenting point of view arrives, it's not the time to attack and point finger.
[00:41:22] That's the time to stay curious longer,
[00:41:24] like lean in even more. What makes you think that? Yes, I can see that. Let me show me what you see so I can see, help me see that. 'cause there's are help with that.
[00:41:35] And that's a reward. That's part of the, the reward piece of the encourage and reward cycle is, I don't yet see what you see, but I believe there's merit in your point of view.
[00:41:44] Tell me more. Huge. Huge.
[00:41:47] Why do you think as we go up in the corporate ladder, that as we rise in power empathy sometimes diminishes when it comes to this.
[00:41:57] So there and there's evidence to show that it does
[00:42:00] indeed.
[00:42:01] Um, it is because we're a hierarchical species. Mm-hmm. And so as we rise in our influence, authority, and power, people tend to treat us by our title and not by our humanity.
[00:42:13] And so we are biologically wired to offer our leaders deference. We can talk smack about a leader behind their back as soon as they walk in. Hello ma'am. Hello sir. How are you? Can I hold your bag? You're doing such a great job job today. You're great job. Right. And it's because they have power over us.
[00:42:29] Yeah. And so leaders have to know that the more senior they get, the further away they are naturally going to get away from the truth, which means they have to work really hard at seeking, finding rewarding the truth when it comes up, especially when it's hard. I'm thinking of a particular CEO that I've worked with them and their team.
[00:42:51] It is a very large, very public, high stakes company. And the CEO lovely person, I really enjoy them. they don't know how much, jester work and clown work is going on behind their, their, their backs. Like they great, but they don't realize how, how much people are placating and how much energy and effort is being done to ensure that things are being done in the way that they think that they would want.
[00:43:25] But like they're not having the candorous conversation. Mm-hmm. And so you just need to know that as a leader, people, are biologically wired to offer you deference. And I think the greatest, most effective, most humble leaders humanize themselves as quickly as possible and seek truth and reward it when it comes.
[00:43:45] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So if we were to throw out a leadership challenge to those leaders mm-hmm. That are in that space. That have risen to that power. What, what would be the leadership challenge that you'd give them?
[00:43:56] the leadership challenge I would give them is show your humanity. Show your fallibility. you know, I'm, I am giving a talk in a couple of weeks, at a really fun event, that is being put on by a company that everyone knows and uses every day.
[00:44:13] And they're bringing together a bunch of leaders from all other companies, and they're doing like a full day bootcamp on how to be more effective with ai. Mm-hmm. And I'm supposed to give a talk on having the appropriate mindset to be willing to be leading. but the funny thing is, I'm not yet comfortable using ai.
[00:44:35] And so how do I A I'm gonna acknowledge that in, in this room there are partners, there are tourists, there are prisoners, there are people who are leaning in and already using it and being effective. There are tourists like me who know that this is the future, but I'm crawling and not leaping or running yet.
[00:44:52] Mm-hmm. And so for me, there's like, I will be holding a position of power and authority. I'm literally the one in front of 400 people giving a talk on mindset. And I'm going, I'm going to humanize and say, by the way. I'm not leading, I am learning. Mm-hmm. And many of you in this room are leading, many of you in this room are learning, and some of you might be resisting as I have at times as well.
[00:45:19] So I think there's a way for leaders to beautiful setting the table, just show their humanity. Mm-hmm. And, cut through the bs, yeah. And realize that if you get a sense, like, here's the thing, when you're in a position of authority and you're a leader, your jokes all of a sudden are funnier.
[00:45:39] Yes.
[00:45:40] But, but not objectively, just subjectively. And so, you know, you just gotta, you've gotta find and reward truth tellers publicly so that more and more people are real with you, rather than just telling you what you think, telling you what they think you want to hear.
[00:45:58] You know? Thank you so much for that.
[00:46:01] I, I think that, uh. I think that's a lesson for all of us, no matter where we are, no matter if we're a leader of a a hundred thousand or if we're a leader of one. I think it's a to everybody. Wow.
[00:46:14] For sure.
[00:46:14] You know, you've, you've built this extraordinary body of work, speak up culture and Worth has absolutely become this beautiful, this beautiful movement.
[00:46:24] What is next for you? What's calling to you? What's in the back of your head? Like what's around here that you haven't quite shaped yet, but you wanna go that way?
[00:46:36] So, th thank you so much. so Speak Up Culture is a book that is Yes. About. culture, but it also has everything to do with leadership. So I care deeply about leadership development.
[00:46:50] Mm-hmm. Um, how can those who either sprung to or called to a moment to lead, or folks who do wish, wish to lead, how do we do it better? And so I'm working on a podcast right now called Shed Some Light, where we're gonna do just that. I love that. Where we're going to help leaders understand what it means to lead, understand what it means to build greater trust, understand what it means to cultivate healthy, thriving, strong cultures and actually do the work.
[00:47:17] and not just be interesting conversations, but like this conversation, be tactical and tools and here's how you do it. which by the way, we don't know everything and we're not perfect, so here are some ideas, but there's, there's more out there. That's definitely one thing. The other is, A big inspiration of mine is my grandfather, um, my grandfather's a Holocaust survivor.
[00:47:38] and he led, he, he passed away just about, it'll be, what are we, 2025. So he passed away just about 10 years ago. But he, he lived to nearly 99. He was 98 in 10 months. Wow. Um, and just led a life that you can't make up, like it's a thing made for the movies. Mm-hmm. And so, though I don't know if I will ever write another business book, and by the way, I'm a big believer in, um, function not form.
[00:48:07] So I'm still gonna create a lot more content and tools. I just dunno if it'll be in the form of a book. but I am going to write his memoir. narrated sort of by me, but tell his life story, which was just an amazing, amazing life. and I'm gonna do that book, so it's, I'm working on it. Uh, working title is Book of Ben.
[00:48:27] It might take me two or three years or more to get it out there, but I'm gonna work on that one.
[00:48:31] Beautiful. Beautiful. I love that for you. I love that for You wanna do a quick lightning round before we, before we Sure. You ready? Let's do it. Yeah. Yeah. Ready? You ready? You ready? Okay. Mm-hmm. Whatever first comes to mind, shed.
[00:48:45] Okay.
[00:48:46] One word that describes great leadership. One word.
[00:48:50] Listening.
[00:48:53] The book you find yourself recommending the most.
[00:48:57] Give and take by Adam Grant,
[00:49:02] a phrase or a quote that you live by.
[00:49:07] Oh, I would say whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right. Which is a Henry Ford quote.
[00:49:15] Oh, I love that.
[00:49:18] Love that best piece of advice that you've ever received.
[00:49:24] Two thirds of an answer is better than an answer and a half.
[00:49:28] I've never heard that. I love that. I love that. That's
[00:49:31] from a, that's from a mentor of Simon's who's passed it on to me.
[00:49:36] Okay. A song that always lifts your mood.
[00:49:40] Oh, Graceland Paul Simon.
[00:49:43] I love it.
[00:49:46] What's one thing that people would be so surprised to learn about you?
[00:49:52] My first paid job ever was teaching water skiing and barefooting at a summer camp. Can't you tell?
[00:50:01] Yes. I love this. The moment. You knew you were doing work that mattered.
[00:50:11] Oh, oh, this is fun. So when I was 12 years old at at summer camp and two kids who came over from Switzerland were having girl problems and I did this thing that I didn't know was called coaching at the time, and I listened to them and talked through some strategies of how they could be more effective.
[00:50:37] I love this. I love this. Shed thank you so very much. What an incredible conversation. You've reminded us of what that safety and worth. They're not buzzwords, they're the heart, they're essential in leadership. You've given some really good leadership challenges and I hope some aha moments that stick with our listeners for a very long time.
[00:51:00] Thank you for, thank you,
[00:51:01] Allison. Thank you, a joy to join you and do this, and I hope, uh, we shared a lot that was of value to your listeners as well. Thank you.
[00:51:09] Thank you.