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Join certified trauma professional Dr. Amy Hoyt and licensed therapist Leina Hoyt, MFT at https://www.mendingtrauma.com as they teach you how to recover from trauma and cPTSD. Trauma shows up in our everyday reactions and sensations and recovering requires a multi-prong approach that considers the mind, body and spirit. Dr. Amy and Leina will teach you the most emerging research and skills to empower you to overcome your past traumas. They address nervous system health, somatic therapy, trauma, cPTSD, EMDR, Neurofeedback, IFS (Internal Family Systems therapy), and many other modes of recovering from trauma. As mental health experts, sisters and trauma survivors, they teach you the tools that actually helped them recover, are backed by research and have helped thousands of their clients. Each episode is packed with clinically effective methods as well as scientific findings to guide you through your own trauma healing journey. Whether discussing cPTSD, PTSD, medical trauma, somatic therapy, nervous system regulation, EMDR or neurofeedback, Amy and Leina will help you recover from trauma so that you can reconnect to yourself and others.
0:00:02 - Speaker 1
Welcome to the Mending Trauma podcast. I'm your host, dr Amy Hoyt, and, along with my sister, laina Hoyt, a licensed marriage and family therapist, we want to help you recover from trauma, whether it's childhood trauma, complex trauma, ptsd or any other trauma sustained from abuse or narcissistic relationships. We want to help you develop skills and ways that can help you to recover from the symptoms and the effects of trauma. We are so glad you're here. Let's dive in. Hi Amy here. Are you feeling stuck or overwhelmed by things that pop up in your daily life and perhaps these are because of past traumas or toxic stress? Have you tried traditional therapy and found that it wasn't enough? I know that was the case for me. That's why we developed the whole health lab.
Mending Trauma has put together a program that combines the latest research with proven methods to help you recover from trauma and move forward from these daily stressors and triggers. We use somatic therapy, emdr, cognitive behavioral therapy and internal family systems therapy. We use nervous system regulation and many other tools so that we can combine the best methods that are identified in the research to help you recover without being completely overwhelmed, so you can work on trauma on your own pace, your own time and still with the mentorship and support of a highly trained, certified staff. That's us. No more waiting for appointments or sitting in traffic driving to see a therapist. With our online program, the Whole Health Lab, you can access it from anywhere, anytime, even on an app. Visit MendingTraumacom backslash Whole Health Lab and learn more, get your questions answered We've got a frequently asked questions section and sign up so that you can have this life-changing program in your world today. Don't let your past hold you back any longer. Take control of your future, and we can't wait to see you in the Whole Health Lab. Hi everyone, welcome back.
Today's episode is how trauma shows up in the workplace. We work with a lot of clients and what we've noticed is that trauma shows up as everyday reactions and sensations in our lives, not necessarily as crystal clear memories, and as Laine and I were talking and preparing for this podcast, it was not lost on us that the majority of us spend most of our time at work, and so if trauma is showing up as reactions in our everyday life, it is very highly likely that we're seeing this in the workplace as well, absolutely. So how does trauma show up in the workplace? What are we seeing? What are we hearing from our clients about what sort of issues they're having in the workplace, and how do those issues actually relate to trauma?
0:03:11 - Speaker 2
That's a great question, and we have a list.
I would like to point out that another way that this affects us is that when we have problems at work, regardless of what kind of problems they are, it can be really difficult to keep that away from our family life, and so when we talk about and address how trauma shows up in the workplace, we're hoping to give you some clear ideas of some of the symptoms and ways to help yourself mitigate those so that it has less impact on both your work and on your personal or family life Absolutely so.
One of the common symptoms that we see is avoidance. We talked a little bit about avoidance in our last podcast, and this can show up as procrastination, putting off a task or a meeting that needs to happen. It can be linked to perfectionism, and one way that that links to perfectionism is that we put off starting it or doing it because it won't be perfect, and that's oftentimes subconscious. So some of you listeners may have a lot of conscious awareness that you have perfectionism, but many of us don't realize that some of our avoidance symptoms are because of perfectionism.
0:04:28 - Speaker 1
Yes, absolutely. I think this is one I have struggled with my whole life and didn't realize it was stemming from perfectionism until a few years ago, and so I love that you're pointing out that it's subconscious because it's not intentional, right? It's just very difficult to realize until I started doing a lot of journaling and kind of figuring out why am I avoiding this task? And I started to realize I need it to be a certain way, I need it to be exactly the way I picture it, and finally I was able to link that to perfectionism. But it's really hard to get to initially.
0:05:08 - Speaker 2
It is and perfectionism pays a lot of times at the workplace.
0:05:13 - Speaker 1
Oh yeah, we're so rewarded for it, not only in the workplace but at home, in civic responsibilities and volunteer work. I mean, the more we do and the better we are at it. I mean, it's a lot of accolades so it's really hard to let go of. It just seems like a wonderful personality trait until you realize the cost of it. Great way of putting that. Yep. Another thing we see in the workplace is what we call triangulation, and we see this in other places as well. But triangulation is when an incident between two people is basically brought from a dyad into a triangle by involving a third party who is not meant to be involved. So we're not talking about appropriately going to your supervisor when you're not sure what to do. We're talking about bringing someone into a conflict that is not in a supervisory role or it's not appropriate to bring them in. So typically that would be a coworker. And talk to us a little bit about why do people do this? Because it shows up everywhere.
0:06:29 - Speaker 2
Oh yes, everywhere. I mean, if you start paying attention to it, you can see it everywhere. It's just bizarre. So the idea is that when there's tension between two people, it's easy for either a third person to jump in to try to mitigate the tension, or the two people who are having tension, one of them will invite a third party in, and that doesn't necessarily happen at the time. So if there's tension between you and I and then I call one of our siblings and start talking about it, that's a triangle, because the event happened between you and I, but there's tension and it's not being resolved directly, and so we see this so much at work. And when people are dysregulated or out of their window of tolerance, when there's a lot of anxiety or frustration or disappointment, it can be really easy and almost automatic to bring another party in to hear our grievances or to take our side.
0:07:35 - Speaker 1
I think that's a really, really good point, and I think you have a saying I can't remember what it is, but I've heard you say it a lot about oh, the surest way to create drama is to bring another person into your conflict. Exactly, yeah. So if Lee?
0:07:55 - Speaker 2
and I have tension.
0:07:57 - Speaker 1
The surest way to create family drama is for one of us to bring in another family member. Another yep, yep, that's it, which we by practice do not do Like we are very committed to that.
But there were years that we didn't realize that and so we were creating drama accidentally Correct. Yes, one of the other things we see a lot is and this really does have to do with triangulation it's interpersonal conflict. And so when we think about interpersonal conflict at work, it could be someone that just kind of rubs you the wrong way. It could be someone who is, you know, maybe not really a team player there, either taking credit for a lot of people's work or they're not really pulling their weight and you feel a sense of responsibility to take on that way so that the team presents well. So interpersonal conflict can show up in a lot of different arenas, but at work it tends to show up, I think, in pretty subtle ways, because it's not socially acceptable to cut off someone at work or, you know, to retaliate, and so there's a lot of subtle ways. Let's talk about this a little bit and and how, what this looks like in terms of, I guess, what it has to do with trauma.
0:09:19 - Speaker 2
Sure, when, when we have trauma, we develop very rigid thinking as a coping mechanism and we also tend to have a lot of hyper vigilance, and the other thing that can occur with trauma is that we start to develop a very high level of external locus of control. So if you work with someone, or if you are someone who requires people to behave a certain way in order for you to stay calm and in order for you to have a sense of Productivity or accomplishment, then you're probably going to have more interpersonal conflict at work, because the external locus of control means that I can only feel better or be happy if all of the people around me are doing what I think they should be or what I want them to do, and so the the higher your external locus of control, the more potential for interpersonal conflict.
0:10:25 - Speaker 1
Yes, because I don't know about you all, but no one does what I want them to do Not my kids, not my husband, not my sister, not my friends. I mean, they're all wonderful people, but they don't ask me how they should behave and then go do it as if I'm giving orders, so I have zero control over anyone. So when we have an external, a high external locus of control, it is a very, very challenging, because I have been this way before. It is a very, very challenging way to live, absolutely. Oh my gosh, it's so painful. So that does create interpersonal conflicts.
0:11:06 - Speaker 2
Yep totally.
0:11:07 - Speaker 1
And then, of course, interpersonal conflicts. When we bring another person in, that's when we get the triangulation.
0:11:13 - Speaker 2
Yes, yep.
0:11:14 - Speaker 1
One of the other things we see with trauma and and work is this is going to seem kind of counterintuitive, but we see a lot of overworking and that seems like that would be so awesome. You get this new job or you have this job and you just keep piling on the responsibilities and you are killing it. Well, overworking is directly related to trauma. It's a numbing behavior, it's an avoidance tactic and, as we talked about earlier and in other podcasts, there's a high payoff for that. We are rewarded for overworking. So one of the things that this relates to with trauma is actually people pleasing and wanting. You know, again, it's an external locus of control. It's wanting that validation from others. Because it does. It feels so good and when our work starts getting piled on and we're not saying anything or just taking on more and more and more, that's an issue of people pleasing and that is partially a fawn response, a trauma fawn response.
0:12:25 - Speaker 2
Yep, and it can be very hard to combat because it is very socially acceptable to overwork and to invest a tremendous amount of energy in doing more and producing more.
0:12:42 - Speaker 1
Yeah.
I mean I think my whole identity as a young adult up until a few years ago was formed out of this idea that if you could give me any task, any job, I could get it done and do it excellent. And I often I could. But the sacrifice was my mental health and my relationship with my family. There was a huge cost, but I was so proud of that. My whole identity was wrapped into this idea that I could do anything and do it so so well. But it was a trauma response. It is a trauma response. It is a trauma response.
0:13:19 - Speaker 2
Yeah, as is numbing behaviors. We you know overworking. Talking about overworking is being a numbing behavior. We also have other numbing behaviors that we engage in, and sometimes we do these at work. So it can be focusing on distractions instead of getting work done. Whether it's scrolling social media, taking personal calls, spending a lot of time texting, doing your shopping online those things can all be numbing behaviors as well, and at work it can really create a problem if you don't have a strong sense of boundaries around what your time is for in certain parts of the day.
0:14:06 - Speaker 1
It's a great point. Another thing we see a lot is tardiness and absenteeism high rates of both of those when you've had someone with trauma. So it's not because they're irresponsible. It's actually often linked to the somatic symptoms that people have from trauma. So they have a lot of people develop chronic migraines, other autoimmune disorders and very real physical symptoms, as we've talked about in other podcasts. That can lead to an increased absenteeism and tardiness and so if you're a supervisor in any capacity and you're listening to this episode, know that once again, this doesn't mean someone has trauma. It could be a clue that there's other things going on.
0:14:55 - Speaker 2
Great way to put it. And then we also have burnout listed here, and when we were talking about this, burnout really comes down to, I believe, problematic boundaries, because when we have a healthy sense of self and a healthy sense of where I start and end and where you start and end, then I'm less likely to have burnout, because I stop working when the day is over, I say no to things that I can't do. When I'm asked to do work that's outside of my job description and I do it, and we start to then develop resentments and have a lot of thoughts and feelings about how we're being taken advantage of or unappreciated, and so burnout is very real, and the healthier our boundaries, I think, the less likely the burnout is or the longer it takes to burn out maybe is a good way to put it.
0:15:55 - Speaker 1
Yeah, that's a great point. I know that one of the things that we've identified around all of these issues is they tend to really center around boundaries or a lack of boundaries when it comes to our relationships, our time management and our workload, and so what we thought would be most helpful for you today is if we talked about how to set some boundaries and set some micro boundaries in the workplace, so that you can still keep your job and minimize some of these maladaptive behaviors that might be showing up at work. So talk to us about micro boundaries, lena.
0:16:34 - Speaker 2
Well, the first one we have. We've talked about in other podcasts about ways to have healthy boundaries with family and in social situations, so this is a form of that when somebody asks you to do something and they're not in a supervisory role, one way that can be very helpful to take a very small step is to say something like let me check my calendar and get back to you. Or this sounds very important, let me give it some thought and get back to you. So anything that gives you some time to think through your response before an automatic yes is going to be helpful, and that can be very challenging at first if you're not accustomed to creating space for you to think about things if you're an automatic yeser.
0:17:30 - Speaker 1
Yes, yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really, really great skill, and I've seen some of my loved ones use that, even with a supervisor, and they'll say you know what, let me check. You know what, let me check. I've got a couple things do this week that so and so has already requested because a lot of times people serve multiple managers and supervisors Let me check my schedule and the workload and I will get back to you. And so this opens up a possibility of a later conversation of you know I now have my workload is pretty full and I really wanna help you, but I'm not sure I can fit this into my allotted time, and so when we give ourselves some space, we open up the possibility of a later conversation about really how to get everything we need to get done in the amount of time that we're allotted.
0:18:28 - Speaker 2
Yes, and another way of approaching this is to say something along the lines of I don't know if I have the bandwidth to do it in a way that will represent our company well or that will represent our values well, or that sort of thing. But in the instant you can say let me check my workload, let me check my calendar, let me check a couple of projects and get back to you, and that sounds really scary, quite frankly.
0:18:59 - Speaker 1
And it is scary because your brain is gonna tell you you're gonna get fired, they're going to be mad at you. All the things that keep us being scared, to all the things that keep us being yes people. So just know that by saying I'm gonna check my calendar, that's why it's a micro boundary, because you're not saying no or yes, you're just giving yourself space, yep absolutely.
0:19:24 - Speaker 2
The other thing we have is ways to avoid triangles, and this can be very, very tricky, in part, as we mentioned earlier, because it happens so frequently and so automatically.
I can remember when you first came home from rehab and the family had been in counseling for about a year and a half I had been away from home. And I came home and I'm the oldest of all the kids and we were sitting at dinner and some of my siblings started talking and I started joining them and one of you I can't remember who it was looked at me very kindly and said could you please mind your own business? I was so taken aback by that because in my world, as the oldest of you know five kids with dysregulated parents everything was my business because I was trying to make sure everything was okay. So it's a way of taking that element out of the workplace and learning how to mind your own business. Learning how to excuse yourself in a conversation where you're trying somebody's trying to rope you into the other point of the triangle, and having a gracious way of excusing yourself or a gracious way of shutting down your part in this can be very helpful. So we have a couple of ideas on that.
0:20:48 - Speaker 1
Yeah, one of the things I find most helpful in these situations when I'm being roped into a dyad that I don't want to be roped into. There's very few that I want to be roped into. I'll tell you the exceptions when my husband and one of the children are needing me in something that I want to be involved in, that. So it's very I'm very selective about when I start triangulating, and that's to say that there are sometimes, when you are raising children, you are going to want to have a triangle between the parents, two parents and the child Not always, but sometimes it's appropriate depending on the issue.
But one of the things I find really helpful is to express empathy, because the person coming to me is usually really upset about what someone else did or said and I like to reflect back to them. I'm really sorry that must have been really hard for you and honestly, often I just want to be validated when I'm in pain or upset and so a lot of times that's enough to kind of help them calm down a little bit without me having to jump in and fix anything, take sides, say anything negative about the other person, but still validate that this is hard for them.
0:22:05 - Speaker 2
Yeah, that's a pretty powerful approach. That's great, thank you. Do you have?
0:22:09 - Speaker 1
anything else that you think would be helpful in the workplace with triangulation, some key phrases or just things you could do to kind of get out of it.
0:22:19 - Speaker 2
Yes, one thing that we all are familiar with in the work environment is that it's not unusual for there to be one or two people in our work environment who are constantly stirring up trouble.
These are maybe the people who are complainers.
These are the people who, because of their own trauma, have difficulty staying out of a victim stance, and so when we have identified this in some of our co-workers, we want to limit our exposure to those people.
We want to provide less opportunity for them to rope us into the drama at work. So one thing you can do this is very challenging, but it is something that can be done is that you pull aside this co-worker in a very neutral moment and just let them know that you're working on staying out of other people's stuff, other people's business, or you let them know that you're really working on not complaining. You've made a commitment to stay out of complaining, and as you're able to limit your exposure to these people, you will get better at having the ability to graciously dismiss yourself, and sometimes that might look like saying I've got to get back to this project I'm working on. It doesn't have to be some kind of confrontation at work where you're telling the person that they're always stirring up trouble. You just graciously excuse yourself and mind your business and let it go.
0:23:55 - Speaker 1
I love that, and one of the things I think that's been really helpful for us is that we have a trauma-informed training that we do in the workplace, and so for all of you listeners who are in management roles or supervisor roles just know that there are options. If you're seeing a lot of these behaviors and you want to be a trauma-informed workplace, that is something that you can remedy. You can bring people in to help train your staff on how to be trauma-informed and have more cohesive and productive work days, because without the personal conflicts, your productivity is going to go way up without having overworking. You're not going to need to overwork. Yeah, they take up so much energy and time.
0:24:45 - Speaker 2
Yes, they do and they become so difficult. People become so dysregulated that, instead of working, they're trying to calm themselves down.
0:24:53 - Speaker 1
Exactly, that's a great point, yeah. So thanks again for joining us this week and every week, and we look forward to being with you next week. Have a great week. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the Mending Trauma podcast. Lane and I are really grateful that you spend time with us each week. We know you have a choice and that time is currency. We would love if you would share this episode on social media and tag us so we can reshare. If you feel so inclined, go and give us a five-star review wherever you listen to pods, so that we can get the word out and help more people. We know that we are all working hard on our mental health and we wish you great success this week in implementing these new skills. We'll check in next week.