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Orthodox Christian Parenting, hosted by Faithtree Resources Executive Director (and mom of four!) Michelle Moujaes, is a weekly podcast for parents and grandparents navigating the holy struggle of raising kids in the Orthodox Faith. Each episode offers honesty, encouragement, and practical wisdom from the Church—creating space to exhale, freedom from the pressure to be perfect, and openness to grow as you raise children who are deepening their knowledge and love of Christ.
I could be around friends that might say, I can't believe you have to serve his plate of food, which I still do today. I serve him, which is an honor and You a do that as an honor. Literally serve his plate. Mhmm. They make fun of me because they say, do you cut his steak as well?
Karen Kinan:Well, at times I do.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm. But Wait. I gotta drill in on this because I can hear the Internet going, oh my gosh, trad wife. Welcome to Orthodox Christian Parenting, where we bring the church's timeless wisdom into the everyday chaos of raising kids. I'm Michelle Moujaes, and I'm so glad that you're here.
Michelle Moujaes:Now here's something that most parenting podcasts don't always offer you, which is the long view. Why? Because most of us are too busy being in the thick of it. We're managing tantrums or driving to practice or negotiating screen time, and we're wondering if any of this is actually working. Well, we wanna know from somebody who's been to the other side and come back to tell us what really matters.
Michelle Moujaes:What lasts? What would you do again? And what would you leave in a ditch on the side of the road? Well, today, I'm sitting down with two very good friends of mine and parents who have something most of us are desperate for, hindsight. And not just hindsight, but grandparent hindsight.
Michelle Moujaes:The kind that comes after you've raised your kids, you've watched them get married, you've watched them stay in the church, and you're watching them start raising their own children in the faith. My guests today are Paul and Karen Kinan. They're the parents of three adult children who have all married in the church, all stayed active and engaged in Orthodox Christian life, and who now participate in their own ministries. They're grandparents to a beautiful crew of little ones, and they've graciously agreed to open up about both sides of the story. The practices that they would absolutely do again the ones that they wouldn't.
Michelle Moujaes:This is gonna be such a gift. I can't wait for you to hear it. Before we jump in, don't forget to download your free digital discussion guide linked in the show notes. It's designed to help you take this conversation home to talk about with your spouse or with a godparent or with your friends at church. There's so much in today's episode that deserves a second pass, so don't forget to download that.
Michelle Moujaes:Paul and Karen, welcome.
Karen Kinan:Thank you. So happy to be with you. So excited that you're here.
Michelle Moujaes:Love it. It's so fun for me. Alright. So just get it started. And for people, who have never met you, tell us a little bit about who you are, where you met, and what's your story?
Karen Kinan:We actually met at Camp Saint Nicholas. Oh. Even though we attended, both attended the cathedral as young children, we didn't know each other, but Camp Saint Nicholas was our meeting place.
Michelle Moujaes:So church camp? Like summer camp. Camp in 1979. Oh my goodness. Okay.
Michelle Moujaes:How old were you guys? I was 15.
Paul Kinan:I was 16. I was her actually, I was kind of upset that year because I was 16 years old, I had to be counselor and not a camper. And my counselor was father Andrew Andrews.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, no. You're kidding.
Paul Kinan:We were counselors together at 16 and this I I was a counselor for her brother, her little brother Michael, who got the flu or something up at camp and this cute big sister kept checking on her little brother and I thought, wow, I really like this gal. The problem was there was two of them, they're identical twins that I didn't know who was Karen, who was her sister Christine.
Michelle Moujaes:Because Karen's
Paul Kinan:a twin. I had a few little, you know, few more days of camp to figure that out, and when we went back home, I called her to ask her out. And unfortunately, her little brother answered the phone and was so excited that his camp counselor was calling to talk to him. I think I talked to him for forty five minutes and didn't have the heart to say I was actually calling for your sister.
Michelle Moujaes:No. That's a good investment right there.
Paul Kinan:Yeah. So I called back the next day, that's how we met. Yeah. We went out from there.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. So you've been together for a very long time. Yes. Yeah. Okay.
Michelle Moujaes:Now tell us about your children.
Karen Kinan:Well, we have three adult children. Like you had said, all married in the church. Thanks be to God. They actually all met doing different ministries within the archdiocese. One married a beautiful young girl from Toronto, Canada that they met at the Special Olympics.
Michelle Moujaes:Wow.
Karen Kinan:Both volunteering. One met at a national convention. I think they were both in Houston. They might have both been working with NAC Soyo. Not sure how much work Nathan did.
Karen Kinan:Beautiful young man. Not so young.
Paul Kinan:And then Marcus met Kate, at Saint George. I love that. When he went to Wichita for school.
Michelle Moujaes:So I love that.
Paul Kinan:All of them met at church functions, church activities.
Karen Kinan:We call it the trifecta.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. Good things come in three. They sure did. They sure did. Okay.
Michelle Moujaes:And you have grandkids. Tell us about them. Number eight is on the way. Oh, beautiful. Okay.
Karen Kinan:We're we're thrilled.
Michelle Moujaes:Eight. Love that. Alright. So before we get into then the whole what would you do, what would you not do, let me ask you this. When you look at your three children today, what do you see that tells you that something went right as in regards to raising them in the church?
Karen Kinan:Well, I hadn't
Paul Kinan:What does
Michelle Moujaes:it look like?
Karen Kinan:I hadn't thought of this until you were introducing us. And I was thinking back right now, our son, God bless him, is pair is the parish council president at our Saint Luke's. Vanessa has sat on the board for Christ the Savior School in Wichita, Kansas for six or seven years now. And all of them have always been involved since very young age in ministries, in the youth programs, in the churches, whether and even in with focus, I mean, they've done they've done it all. I don't think it was our doing.
Karen Kinan:I sometimes wonder who is praying for our kids that, is helping protect and guide them because
Paul Kinan:It's the prayers of of our families, of our parishes, of our siblings. So for me, it's a pretty simple philosophy. I mean, to me, it's more fear. It's the the whole fear of God type thing. I do think that the very first question we're all gonna be asked on our judgment.
Paul Kinan:The very first question will be, how did you take care of the children I entrusted to you? And I don't think those are just the children born to us. I think that includes your nephews and your nieces, your God children, the children in your community, the children in this world that need help, the unborn children. We need to protect and take care of all god's children. So when you look at it as a perspective of so many times we look at there are kids, we'll raise them however we want.
Paul Kinan:No. Those aren't our kids. Yes. We were blessed to the Lord to entrust those three children to us, but we have to answer to God about his children and how we raised them. So I think about that with all children.
Paul Kinan:How are we gonna answer that someday? And and then when I think, okay, we're doing a pretty decent job with our kids, I think about our nieces and our nephews and our godchildren and children that maybe I don't spend enough time with or do enough. So for me, it's it's pretty simple. It's our job. We've been entrusted to do it.
Paul Kinan:And if you if you look at children as a gift from God and that we have to answer to God for the gift he's given us, I think we work a little harder and smarter maybe.
Michelle Moujaes:One of the things we talk about here a lot is intentionality. But when you recognize whose children they are Mhmm. And what he's invited you to participate in, it does change. There's like a paradigm shift because sometimes, I know for myself, but for a lot of people in our audience, you kinda get this stress level like, I gotta rocket, I've gotta create this thing, and that's not really what you're describing to me at all.
Paul Kinan:No. I I think one of the when you ask to the question of what do you see that makes you realize that maybe you've done things the right way. For me, it's I've seen I've watched my my children grow up. Now I'm watching them raise their children, but I'm blessed to work with both my sons.
Michelle Moujaes:You're you're talking about like in your career, you have
Karen Kinan:to work with both your sons.
Paul Kinan:I'm blessed to work with both my sons, so we see each other every day. And, you know, when my kids were young, if they came into my office and closed the door and said, dad, I need to talk to you. I thought, oh gosh, what's the problem do they need me to help them solve? But now when they walk into my office and close the door and say, dad, I need to talk to you, it's $50.50. They might be something they wanna help me with.
Paul Kinan:Said, I've noticed this. You know, I don't really get involved in my parents and my my parenting that my children do. If they ask me, I'll tell them, but I certainly don't tell them what to do or how to do it. We we have certain opinions on on how they raise their kids and versus how we raise them, but they're all Christ centered ways. They're all there's not one formula especially when children are so different.
Paul Kinan:So I learned from my sons when they come in to give me advice, and now I'm learning from, you know, my my daughter and her son-in-law. As my wife said, we have eight grandchildren. Our our seventh grandchildren was born with Down syndrome, and what we were fearful about and worried about, we are now watching our daughter and son-in-law and granddaughters show us how to raise kids, show us how to have not have fear and how to have strength. So it's a beautiful thing to look back and then learn from your children, not just continue to teach them but to learn from them as well.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that so much. Do you wanna add anything?
Karen Kinan:Well, I was remembering anybody that's volunteered at Special Olympics has realized that you learn. You think you're going to teach. You don't. You go and you come back in awe. It's interesting to watch it take place now within our family.
Karen Kinan:And Paul had always wondered too if we were if we ourselves would ever have a special needs child and to see it in our family, but to be, I don't wanna use the word celebrated. It's almost it's a gift. It's, something that the amount of love is incredibly obvious. It's just something that is palpable.
Paul Kinan:Here's the other thing I would say about love. Love's not enough. Right? Love's not enough in any relationship. Otherwise, we wouldn't have marriages that fail, we wouldn't have children that don't speak to their parents or vice versa.
Paul Kinan:You need to have love with discipline. And and that's, I think, the important thing is oftentimes when we say discipline, we think of spanking or no discipline. The reason why we fast is to learn discipline. The reason why we teach our kids certain things is so they have discipline to make choices. So love is the ingredient that you need in everything, but without discipline, it's it's you know, the love doesn't remember to force the love or to teach the love.
Paul Kinan:So it's funny how the Lord never leaves you on a path on your own. If you look back, my degree was in special ed. Sent I our kids know that. We spent our children to the village for Special Olympics. Think all three of our children went five Over
Karen Kinan:course of eleven years. Yeah. I think they were covered for over almost a dozen years.
Paul Kinan:So the Lord knew what he was doing when when getting us all ready to work with an angel on earth. But, look, what we've done is nothing different than the age old raise your children in the church, love them, teach them, surround them with other family and friends that do the same thing. It's it's a blessing when you could send your kids to your sibling's house or your your cousin's house, your neighbor's house, your friend's house, and they have the same values, the same morals, the same teachings.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, I heard so many things there. The first one which I wanna just drill down for our audience is the idea of community, which is so critical being with like minded people who are engaged in the life of the church and want the same things is critical. Did you have a picture of what you wanted it to look like that you were intentionally parenting towards? Did was it something that just by virtue of fact that you were surrounded by siblings and cousins and people in the church? How how did you actually, from the beginning days, kinda execute?
Michelle Moujaes:Well, it's interesting because I think the
Karen Kinan:word intentionality is so important. But with the blessing of the church, I think if people realized that it is it's like an art like the art of just safety. I mean, we are protected. Our children are our children are protected if they live within the construct of the church. We're given the tools.
Karen Kinan:So we think we have to do it ourselves, but in actuality, not even just, of course, all of the sacraments and, having them be protected, just communing regularly and all that. But if we really utilized the life of prayer, the akathis, I don't know if, your audience would know how many there are for us as mothers, especially to the theotokos, to the nurture of children, inexhaustible cup for those who suffer from addictions. I mean, if you have children with addictions
Michelle Moujaes:Tell people who don't know what an akathis is. What is it?
Karen Kinan:Well, the akathis or akathis, as they say in Greek, is is is a prayer that's done. Akathis just means in stand not sitting or standing. And there are Kentuckians, there are stanzas, beautiful. It's almost melodic, poetic, so it's easy to to say. But you have certain saints that help you in certain times.
Karen Kinan:So for like marriage, there's Saint Anna and Joachim, Favronia and Peter. There are certain ones when in times of need that they're there as your intercessors and the words are there for you. And it's interesting because at different times when you pray them, things resonate with you differently when you're experiencing different things in life. So whatever your needs might be, it's astounding. You might have read them.
Karen Kinan:Paul started a forty day when his mother passed, so I'll let him tell you about it. But it's interesting. We started that years ago. But when you pray it at different times in your life, like when you read the Psalms, all of a sudden something else jumps out at you.
Michelle Moujaes:Jumps out
Karen Kinan:at you. Or when you read homilies. I don't know if your audience would know bishop Nikolai Belarimovich, but the homilies resonate with you differently each year. My poor husband calls it RP when I read to him.
Michelle Moujaes:Calls it your what?
Karen Kinan:He calls it RP, religious propaganda.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, RP.
Karen Kinan:Yes. When I read, I he he's so sweet to me. After hearing homilies, then he has to hear me read to him other homilies on Sundays.
Michelle Moujaes:So much. And, actually, I just I'm gonna make a call out a little bit self serving, but the Encounter app, which Faith Tree has, has been blessed by so many of our friends at different monasteries that have allowed us to have the rights to those. So if you want access to them, they are free on the Encounter app. They are in written form. They are also read to you if you wanna listen to them while you're driving even.
Michelle Moujaes:So
Karen Kinan:There's another weapon right there, monasteries. Yeah. If people ever want to call ahead and visit and make a pilgrimage, it is it can be life altering. And those who go often, our children go. Your children go to
Michelle Moujaes:monasteries often? Well, in particular Tell us. Tell us.
Paul Kinan:No. We we do. We have
Karen Kinan:Oh, that's right.
Paul Kinan:A daughter and son-in-law that go to monasteries quite regularly. They all do. I mean,
Karen Kinan:it's just Our son and daughter-in-law actually have two mother abbesses that are the godmothers for their children.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, beautiful. Mhmm. Okay. So tell us about that. Let's just go.
Michelle Moujaes:What's the benefit in in family life for that?
Paul Kinan:Well, I don't know. I think I'd back up to you say the the vision that we had in raising our kids or I I don't really I don't know. I wish as a young person I had the
Michelle Moujaes:Me too, bro.
Paul Kinan:Foresight to plan things out, but you really don't. But we were all given the playbook very fortunate for us. Our parents gave us the playbook. It was very simple. I mean, you learn very early that things are taught by example and not by words.
Paul Kinan:So when I saw the way my dad treated my mom, I understood that's way you treated a wife and a woman. This is the way you raised children. So we we were blessed to have examples. So, you know, the thing that we've always tried to do for our children is give them the example that we were taught. There's nothing that I admire more that people have to figure things out on their own.
Paul Kinan:And I say that as an Orthodox who was born into Orthodox, whose grandparents and grandparents came into Orthodoxy. If you find Orthodoxy as a convert, my hat's off to you with so much respect because you found what we have. We didn't have to find it on our own. And it's the same thing with raising children and family. Not everybody came from families that they can look at examples from their parents.
Paul Kinan:Unfortunately, some people look at examples from their parents and don't wanna be that way. But as parents, we give our kids two options and it's not always good. If we by our examples, we're we are going to they're gonna learn from our examples both good and bad. So we can tell them what we wanna do, but they're watching the way I treat their mother. I want they're watching the way I treat their siblings.
Paul Kinan:They're watching the way I treat my neighbor. So it's, you know, it's all we just wanna pass on the same things that we were taught, and that's raise you have respect and love, be Christ centered. When you say community, you know, I wish one of the things about Orthodoxy, unless you live somewhere like Saint George in Wichita, where everybody lives right next to the cathedral, we don't have that in a lot of our parishes.
Michelle Moujaes:It's a really it's a hard thing to overcome, which is having that community life.
Paul Kinan:Right.
Michelle Moujaes:So okay. What do you say to that?
Paul Kinan:You have to create that. You have to create that. And some people, in the early days of La Canada, a lot of families lived there. And I remember growing up going, man, I would love to live with a lot of other families like this that that have the same morals and and goals. And and then we started to start that in Yorba Linda.
Paul Kinan:I think we have like 25, 30 families.
Michelle Moujaes:So you guys chose to all gather and live together. Stop it. That's so good.
Karen Kinan:We call it the little Wichita. It's village living.
Michelle Moujaes:It's village. Well, and it makes a really big difference.
Karen Kinan:It really does. I, my daughter living in Wichita one time had surgery and she said, I am having surgery tomorrow. Can you please fly out? I made the first flight out. I arrived.
Karen Kinan:The priest was in the room giving her a blessing prior to surgery. The chanter, her chanter was, also a doctor. He was asking the anesthesiologist all the medical questions. There were women from the community there with coffee and sandwiches for everybody. The was also there.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm. And
Karen Kinan:I walked in and I said, sweetheart, you didn't need me. Everybody's taking care of you. It is village living. Of course, she said, no, mom. I need
Michelle Moujaes:my mom. I need my I love that. I love that. That's something my husband grew up in a village in The Middle East, and his experience of childhood was very different even though I had a beautiful church community that I was a part of and and still to this day raising my kids with those young people that I was raised with. But there's something about village living, and it's just different.
Michelle Moujaes:It's just different. And I love the idea that you intentionally created that. Well, the converts actually can feel it. They've come
Karen Kinan:and told us both and expressed how it's different when they come to the church. We have, like most Orthodox churches right now, we have an influx. Mhmm. And thanks be to God, we have a very welcoming community intentionally. We even setting up a welcome table, taking names, reaching out.
Paul Kinan:And that's the important part. Community doesn't mean family. It just doesn't mean you're our community becomes our family. Mhmm. So it's a as father Paul Callahan would call it the feast of friendship.
Paul Kinan:Right? It's a book. But it's so when I say we have 15 family members that live, they may not be related to us, but they are related to us through Orthodoxy and through common bond in Christ. So you have to build your community and your community can be two families or it could be 20 families, but you have to have the support of other family because, you know, children, it's really important to teach them to stand up for what's right and what's wrong. And it's really hard when you're young when you're the only one.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right. There's a
Paul Kinan:couple other that believe in you or have the same thoughts. It's a little easier to stand up.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Paul Kinan:We have to teach our kids to do the right thing whether they're surrounded by their village or not because we spend a lot of time outside of our village.
Karen Kinan:I just read today, when he was saying what's right and wrong, that it's actually habits of the heart. You can think of it. And if we instill that in our kids, they can respond in such a way. Also, when he was speaking about when that those people feel loved, and love as in not I think when he was talking about is not enough, he just meant the emotion of love, but the action of love always is. So love is an action.
Karen Kinan:And when you're dealing with people, if they sense and you don't have to feel like doing it, you have to do it anyway. Even when you don't feel like it, the act of loving is being selfless. Obviously, thinking of God first, neighbor next, then yourself. And when people sense that you care more about them, even if you don't do it perfectly, the their response is it's really incredible.
Michelle Moujaes:Incredible. Let's get granular. I wanna, like, pare it down so that parents listening to this can leave and know what they get up and do tomorrow or what they do when their kid is throwing something at their sibling or whatever that is. What are those things that you would definitely do again? Those practices, those habits of the heart, and those things that you would definitely cultivate again?
Michelle Moujaes:And I'm gonna start you out with the first example because I know you, and I know this to be true. And I know it's a great example for Walid and myself, but I know you focused on your marriage, and it did a lot of the heavy lifting for you all and for what you did intentionally. So tell us about that.
Karen Kinan:Well, when you were saying about being around like minded people, which I think is a very important thing. Also, when you are with people that not just lift you, but make you better people, make you a better version of yourself. So I could be around friends that would say, you are married to a man that is the salt of the earth. He is such a wonderful man. You don't realize how rare it is.
Karen Kinan:And I would come back totally enamored with him.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Karen Kinan:I could be around friends that might say, I can't believe you have to serve his plate of food, which I still do today. I serve him, which is an honor and a pleasure. You do that as an honor. Literally serve his plate.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Karen Kinan:They make fun of me because they say, do you cut his steak as well? Well, at times I do. Mhmm. But but it's been my honor and pleasure. I would notice that when people Wait.
Michelle Moujaes:I gotta drill in on this because I can hear the Internet going, oh my gosh, trad wife. You do that by choice, not because he said if you're gonna be married to me, you gotta cut my steak.
Karen Kinan:When Christ when when they in that marriage service, when they say to honor your husband, I do that, but his job is much harder than mine. Yeah. He loves me despite who I am. And, you know, as a woman, we can't always be the easiest to especially from a man's mindset, we can't always be the easiest to and yet he loves and cherishes and adores me, which makes it very easy for
Michelle Moujaes:me serve him.
Karen Kinan:To want to serve him. So I've always done it. And I get a lot of grief from a lot of women Mhmm. Who think it's silly, but it makes a huge difference.
Michelle Moujaes:Absolutely. Absolutely. Alright, Paul. You're gonna speak into that? The comments are coming.
Paul Kinan:Yeah, I do. My wife does a lot for me. She does. I'm pretty much everything I am is because of her.
Karen Kinan:See what I mean?
Paul Kinan:Well, I mean, when you do stuff for me, it makes me wanna be better. And I think she sees me trying to serve other people, try to serve our family, try to serve our kids, our community. She does a lot for me. Could I do it on my own? Absolutely, I could.
Paul Kinan:But when she does loving things for me, and I don't require them, I don't ask her to do them, it makes me wanna do more loving things for her and anybody else. So I always tell her, she's the hardest woman to be married to and the easiest woman at the same time Because it makes it easy when I come home, didn't matter if we had three kids running around, didn't matter if I had five, seven, eight, nine nephews and nieces over the house along with my kids. The house is always some type of organized chaos. There's always some intentionality about making it nice for me when I get home. She made my life very very easy.
Paul Kinan:But she makes my life very very difficult because I have to live up to that. I have to be the man that deserves that. I have to be the man that doesn't come home and go, I can't believe I say all these horrible things about my wife to my buddies and then I come home to this. So it's it's very easy because she makes my life so wonderful and but it's very difficult because I, you know, I have to have that discipline.
Karen Kinan:You made it seem like you actually say horrible things and they might misunderstand. I must tell you, he speaks so highly of me to his friends that it also makes me have to live up. He's never said a harsh word, unkind word.
Paul Kinan:Don't don't get don't get us wrong. We disagree on things.
Karen Kinan:Yes. As as many women think differently.
Michelle Moujaes:Little bit differently than most people I've seen. And let me just say, first and foremost, sorry will lead because the bar is so high. I know your wife well, and the bar is so high because you approach with reverence your marriage and your husband, which is it's a really beautiful, but I would say not common.
Paul Kinan:Well, even more importantly, she prays for our marriage every morning.
Michelle Moujaes:For your marriage. Yes. Yes. But I I think there is something about the way you guys talk to and about each other. That's probably one of the biggest things.
Michelle Moujaes:I know that models to Walid and I as an example, but I'm sure to your children and now your grandchildren.
Karen Kinan:My children have seen an example of a man who is strong and gentle
Paul Kinan:Mhmm.
Karen Kinan:Has never raised his voice
Paul Kinan:Their grandfather. She's talking about my dad.
Karen Kinan:Yeah. And and I've thanked him. That is one person. I am talking about Paul, but I have thanked my father-in-law so many times. By the way, he's expecting he has 18 great grandchildren.
Michelle Moujaes:18 great grandchildren.
Karen Kinan:15 grandchildren, 18 great grandchildren with four more on the way. So by 2023, we'll have 22. Wow. And I thanked him so much for the example he set that it's a blessing to me and to my daughters in law as well because my sons treat them in such a way that he exemplified.
Michelle Moujaes:So the marriage really has done a lot of the parenting work. You you established the
Karen Kinan:I think loving your husband the most is what's most important for the children.
Michelle Moujaes:Say more about that, Karen.
Karen Kinan:I think when parents love each other regardless of how imperfect they are, that overrides our mistakes.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. And I think it calls us to, for lack of a better word, better behavior when we talk nicely about each other and we speak life into each other as opposed to frustration or guilt or, like, the shame of, oh my gosh, you're catering to whatever that was that you were talking about. You reap what you sow almost. I like that.
Karen Kinan:He's made it easy for me though.
Michelle Moujaes:One of the things that I think is important as we talk about things, which are so countercultural. I can already my mind is kind of wheeling of people who are gonna push back and say, I don't wanna cut his steak. He can cut his own steak or whatever it is. Here's something I wanna call to our attention. I've seen you all for decades.
Michelle Moujaes:I know you, and it works. Your marriage and your home are peaceful. And there is great exhale in the way you operate, in the way you navigate hard things, in the way you use your lives to glorify God. So I just want you to talk for one second about why do you think that works? So that anybody who doesn't really feel comfortable about the idea of such self emptying for your spouse, why does
Karen Kinan:it work? It's interesting. It works because I believe it was that's the way it was intended to work. And I think if people actually gave it a legitimate try, not, you know, with any resentment or if you actually just try it even a little bit, Just like if you show someone kindness that you're irritated with Mhmm. The blessing comes and you're astonished that it can be reciprocated like that when you were just feeling the opposite.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Karen Kinan:I don't think we're meant to people think we're supposed to act upon our feelings. We're actually supposed to we're meant to do the opposite of act upon our feelings, and then it actually drives your feelings a certain way. So even if you don't feel like doing something, just give it a try.
Michelle Moujaes:It's so good.
Karen Kinan:It it works.
Michelle Moujaes:It's astonishing. I'm gonna say it back so that everybody can be on the same page with you. What you're suggesting is we don't act on the emotion or the feeling. What we do is we act on what God called us to do, which are the virtues, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self control, all of those things. You know, honoring your husband, respecting your husband, and cherishing your wife as Christ cherishes the church.
Michelle Moujaes:Right? So that behavior will yield fruit and the feelings will follow.
Karen Kinan:Father Thomas Hopko has 55 maxims. They're just practical little sayings on how to live. They're so helpful. We had them on our fridge for years posted, and we highlighted the ones that we could work on.
Paul Kinan:Different highlights the one that I needed.
Karen Kinan:Yeah. We had different
Paul Kinan:color highlight the ones I thought she needed.
Karen Kinan:Different color coding. So I would know I was guilty of thirty five and thirty seven in particular that I had to work on those, overanalyzing, trying to figure everything out. But it could be as simple as for example, the prayer one is pray as you can, not as you think you must. If people realize that just do what you can, but when you live by the tools that the church gives you, that the fathers, the holy fathers, and then trickle down to our theologians, our church, it is a blessing to you, your spouse, your children, your children's children.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. Tell me about forgiveness. What did that look like in your home? So if you did have those moments where it was like, you rubbed each other, there was a little bit of friction. Yeah.
Paul Kinan:Well, even with kids. So one of the things the message that I tried to get through to my children very early in life is asking for forgiveness or apologizing first is a form of strength, not weakness.
Michelle Moujaes:That's good, Paul.
Paul Kinan:Well, you know, one thing we try to do in in in my family is it's calm, patience Mhmm. Even when disciplining with the kids. I've seen a lot of people discipline kids. Get very emotional, very upset, they yell, they scream. We would just remove our child from the situation and then go talk to him.
Paul Kinan:I I remember being a kid, if my mom wanted to give me a swat or something, I almost laugh because here she was this
Karen Kinan:And she might never heard
Paul Kinan:five foot woman take a little okay, mama. And I and then my parents didn't spank us every once in a while, little swat to catch our attention. But I remember what broke my heart the most was when my parents would tell me they were disappointed in my actions. Mhmm. And this is why, and this is what we expected from you, and this is so so talking to children, making them understand what what they're doing and why, and how much you love them, and why it hurts you to see them do things, and so everything in discipline.
Paul Kinan:But we've had to apologize to our children as many times they've had to apologize. So that's the first thing you need to learn in any relationship is forgiveness and apology because we are gonna mess up. We mess up all the time.
Karen Kinan:He is actually much better than I am, at saying I'm sorry. I I learned from him. It's not one of my strengths. That's for sure.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Me neither. Yeah. Me neither. I'm getting better.
Michelle Moujaes:Yes. But it's you have I have to be very intentional because my pride is so high. So to stop for a minute and to kind of regroup around what's the long game. Like, what is it we're looking to do and not to be right. And even when have kids who repent.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Paul Kinan:We have to show them repentance in
Michelle Moujaes:order to
Paul Kinan:teach them repentance.
Karen Kinan:I think even when we apologize when we're in the right is even more powerful.
Michelle Moujaes:What would that look like?
Karen Kinan:You say you're sorry even when you know that you were right. I know there's times where he's apologized to me and he was right.
Paul Kinan:Or or there's times like we've always said, even when you're right, you can be wrong because your reaction to what you thought was incorrect or what you were accused of, if you take it over the tops, then even though then you're way wrong.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I had it. One of my kids said to me one time, mom, why are you screaming at me? I'm like, I'm not screaming. He goes, well, you're not loud, but you're screaming.
Michelle Moujaes:But you don't have to be loud to scream. I was like, oh. But it's the same thing, you know, that idea of what's the heart posture? Even if you're technically right, what's the heart posture that you might be able to repent for? Or
Karen Kinan:That heart posture, I think, also is where the prayer really helps. One of Paul's favorites is the Jesus prayer. I don't know if, I'm sure most of your listeners would know.
Michelle Moujaes:Tell us what it is.
Karen Kinan:I'll let Paul do that.
Paul Kinan:The Jesus prayer is really the simplest form of communication between you and our Lord just to simply say it with each not, Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy upon me a sinner, or just Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me, or just have mercy upon me. And as a parent, you can teach yourself to say the Jesus prayer so easily. Mhmm. Because as parents, we're always worried. We're always concerned.
Paul Kinan:We're always looking to the future. We're always, what if this happens? What if that happens? So whenever I get anxious or look to the future, you just say the Jesus prayer. Whenever you hear a siren, you think, are they going to my parents' house or I hope that's not for school for one of my kids.
Paul Kinan:Well, it's somebody's family. So you say the sign of the cross, you say the Jesus prayer for them. So if you remember, if your triggers to say the Jesus prayer when you're nervous, worried, thinking bad thoughts, you're always gonna be thinking it. So for me, the Jesus prayer is the answer to everything. It helps you stay calm.
Paul Kinan:It helps you keep your mind and soul and noose open so that the Lord can give you the right attitude and right things to work on. I just went to a high school last week and handed out 120 of these
Karen Kinan:Oh, wow.
Paul Kinan:Prayer bracelets. They weren't all Orthodox and but I tell them if you're Catholic, you use it to say the rosary. If you're Orthodox, you use it to remind you to say the Jesus prayer. If you're not affiliated with either of those, think good thoughts about people or
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah.
Paul Kinan:If you're concerned or praying for somebody in your family. So, you know, the Jesus prayer just continues to remind us who we are, what we're supposed to do, what we're called for.
Karen Kinan:They say it's the prayer of the heart. So people if you frequent a monastery, you'll hear the nuns or the monks, as they work. They inhale saying, Lord Jesus Christ, taking him in, son of God. And then upon the exhale, they say, have mercy upon me. So you're just getting rid of it actually flows much more melodically in Greek, which I can't do.
Karen Kinan:But
Paul Kinan:But so many people turn it into their own personal prayer. Lord, have mercy. You know?
Karen Kinan:You're calling on the Jesus name.
Paul Kinan:My daughter, my son, my next door neighbor, my
Michelle Moujaes:So it's praying without ceasing. Praying on
Karen Kinan:the without ceasing becomes part of their breath, but it's calling on the Lord in particular.
Michelle Moujaes:Right. Lord so who you are in
Karen Kinan:front power of Mhmm. Just his name as we know. The power of just the name of the Lord. The evil one flees. So you call upon him.
Michelle Moujaes:Say that again. That's important. I want everyone to hear it really.
Karen Kinan:Well, the name of the Lord and the prayers of mothers are so powerful that the evil one flees with just the sign of the cross or saying the name of the Lord. I mean, we have weapons as moms.
Michelle Moujaes:That's really important to hear.
Paul Kinan:Yeah. I love the quote. What is it? The you may not understand what you're reading, but the devil does. So always just keep reading, always keep praying, always don't leave home without your armor of
Michelle Moujaes:crosses and
Paul Kinan:prayer robes. So those are all the right things we've done. We could talk about all the things we didn't
Michelle Moujaes:do. Would you not do again? If you could go back your your kids are how old now?
Paul Kinan:30
Karen Kinan:You sure? That's a bad question. 30? I could tell you the years they were born.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, by way,
Karen Kinan:I did do the wrong year earlier when we were talking. My grand my father-in-law will have the 22 grandchildren by 2027. So I'm
Michelle Moujaes:gonna Amazing. Okay. So your kids are in their thirties.
Karen Kinan:My kids are born in '91, '93, '96.
Michelle Moujaes:Beautiful. Okay. So if you could go back, what would you do differently or what did you fail to do you wish you had done? Give us that side
Paul Kinan:I'll of give you my couple. One, I would have been more present.
Michelle Moujaes:Physically or like when they were talking?
Paul Kinan:I was very present physically all the time, but I could watch my kids if she needed to go do something. I could put the USC UCLA football game on and I might put my kids in a playpen and throw a ball at them.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Kinan:Yeah. I mean, I think today it's even harder because everybody's got their phone out and I'll see parents and they're watching their kids. They're also looking at their phone and, you know, things change in a fraction of a second with children. You always have to not just for safety, but I lived three blocks or two miles away from my parents. I still do.
Paul Kinan:And when my mom passed away about nine years ago now, I used to go to their house three, four times a week, talk to her three, four times on the phone. But when she passed away, I wish I had more time with her. You will always wish you had more time with your kids. Even when you're with your kids, you'll wish you were more present in the time you were with your kids. So if you don't have as much time as you'd like, at least invest in the time you're there.
Paul Kinan:Put that phone away.
Karen Kinan:Mhmm.
Paul Kinan:For me, it was turn the TV off. Now let's turn the TV off, turn the radio off, turn the podcast off, get your phone off, the iPad off. And we have to kid teach children because what are we teaching our children these days? To learn all that stuff. We want them all to be able to learn AI.
Paul Kinan:We want them to learn how to navigate in social media safely. But at the same time, we don't so that's one. The other thing I would change is our participation on youth sports on the weekends, specifically on Sunday. And I have a lot of thoughts about that, or it's really important for your children at that age to build confidence and do the best they can, but we also have to teach them. Here's why we say no to maybe playing a basketball game on Sunday.
Paul Kinan:I'll never forget, It was in my office one day. I used to be an exclusive insurance agent with Nationwide Insurance, and they were trying to get I was trying to buy a bunch of offices in the LA Orange County area, and they weren't sure if I had enough people to do it, enough money to do it, enough time to do it. So they sent out the head president and vice president nationwide came out from Columbus, Ohio to meet in my office. And it was a Monday morning, and I had these two executives in my office. The door was closed, I was giving them my perform and plan on how I could do this.
Paul Kinan:And all of sudden my door opened up. And it was my dad at the time. He was probably 85, 86. He used to walk the two miles from his house to my office. And he walked in and he opened the door and said, oh, hey, dad.
Paul Kinan:I have a meeting. This is Ramon and Mark from Nationwide. They're here to talk about some really important business. He goes, oh, nice to meet you. He said, I'll just be a second.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, I'm scared.
Paul Kinan:And he looked at me and said, son, I didn't see you and Marcus in church yesterday. Yeah. Well, we weren't there. We had a basketball game. Marcus is on that travel basketball team and there's some people looking him.
Paul Kinan:So now I understand, son. So just remember this. This is in front of the two people from Nationwide. They're just looking at my dad talking to me. They said just remember this, son.
Paul Kinan:There's a 99.9% chance that your son will never play in the NBA. But there's a 99.9% chance he's gonna be a good Orthodox Christian and gonna be a good Christian and good member of society, and he needs to be in church on Sunday. So I'll see you next Sunday. We'll see you next Sunday, dad.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yes, sir.
Paul Kinan:We closed the door. Two gentlemen from Nationwide looked at me and shook my hands and Paul, we wanna do business with We we like we like your dad.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it.
Paul Kinan:Yeah. So it's important to make sure your kids have the best we can offer them as parents. That doesn't mean the best car we can buy them to drive or the best clothes or the best schools. We want them to have the best Christian education that they can have. And sometimes we take them out of church occasionally, but we need to teach them what's important.
Paul Kinan:And this is why, you know, the Catholics, I guess they're lucky maybe, they have liturgies or they have their masses on Saturdays, but it doesn't keep the Sunday day for the family, for the church, for the Lord. So I didn't do a great job at that. I did drive my kids all over the place on some Sundays to play golf and to play basketball. Now I look at it differently, and I have a little different advice from my grandkids. You know, let them play sports, let them do all that, But also teach them it's important to say, you know what?
Paul Kinan:I'm Orthodox Christian. I go to church on Sundays. And, they'll look back at that and you'll teach them more than that than playing basketball.
Michelle Moujaes:That's good.
Karen Kinan:You know, was strategic. He would actually try and be on the same team as the Mormon coaches because the Mormons got off on Sundays, which was interesting. Why couldn't the Orthodox Christians do the same? But you were strategic about
Paul Kinan:Yeah.
Karen Kinan:So I
Paul Kinan:aligned myself with the Mormon.
Karen Kinan:He he aligned himself. Was Tried to find us.
Michelle Moujaes:But, you know, there's good data for our kids when they see those intentional, like Absolutely. Because it's the same thing when we talk about being on time for church. We're not late to the dentist. We're not late to school. We're not late to the movies.
Michelle Moujaes:And so when we're late to church, there is some messaging there, whether we talk about it or not, which is this is a little bit negotiable or, you know, God doesn't have the same level of priority that we would never be late for school. Right? And so I think I think making those decisions, figuring out how to align yourself with the sports team, that's strategy so that you can have the benefits. I mean, youth sports are great.
Paul Kinan:Yeah. We have to teach our kids how to live in the world, how to say yes, how to say no. For sure. Right? We don't wanna be judgmental, but at the same time, we need to teach them what's right, what's wrong so that they can make those
Michelle Moujaes:decisions.
Karen Kinan:I I do think you're absolutely right. The that isn't an option. You go to the dentist, you brush your teeth at night.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Karen Kinan:You say your prayers at night. There's not an option. Mhmm. My regret would probably be not saying morning prayers before we got up and left for church because you're always in a
Paul Kinan:special point I made about love is not enough.
Karen Kinan:Right? But you're using love as an emotion, not as
Paul Kinan:what yes. You have to have love in everything you do. But if you don't have the discipline Yeah. Yeah. In your life, the love is directed in the same place.
Michelle Moujaes:The practice of praying, the practice of finding these sports that work with your schedule. Yeah. I like that. Is there anything else that you wouldn't do or would do that you didn't do?
Karen Kinan:I was thinking about, you know, just the morning prayers, even if it's in the car. You know? Just just blessing your children before you walk out to that door.
Paul Kinan:Mhmm.
Karen Kinan:And obviously, as we mature and you're behind me, you realize certain things. And somehow, through the grace of God and with the protection of God knows, whether it's their guardian angel, whether it's their patron saints. It's interesting because we keep learning from these new converts that we've been able to grow close to. It's almost as if their patron saints find them. It's almost as if they're called to be we have to we have to develop relationships with the saints that are there for our benefit.
Karen Kinan:And people who have are also extremely surprised at what that looks and feels like. So
Michelle Moujaes:You've talked to me about that multiple times through my mothering years. So, you know, Karen's one of the first phone calls I make on most mornings, and I always glean all the wisdom I can because I've seen what you've done. You've done it well. And one of the things you constantly are drilling, make sure they know the saints are their friends. Make sure they know they are actual relationships, not just cartoon characters or superheroes.
Michelle Moujaes:Say more about that. For parents out there that are certainly reverend of the saints, we know that the Orthodox Church loves our saints, but tell us how it's become something so personal for you and something that is so such a vibrant real relationship.
Karen Kinan:Well, I don't think until you as I've aged, I've realized and I've witnessed people who have relationships, and you hear stories of how saints have played roles in real life situations, not just like mystical situation. I'm talking real life situations. I've often wondered, like, what if we had our youth do activities? I used to teach. I taught for thirty some odd years.
Karen Kinan:I remember we would have expert groups. Let's say a second grade, it was dinosaurs, And everybody would pick a dinosaur and you got to be the expert in that and you presented to your group. Can you imagine if we had our youth be experts on a particular saint where they would go, they would learn about their lives, they would learn what it was in particular that they were known for. So for example, my husband suffers from headaches, and I started saying prayers for his headaches. I never was aware that there was a saint for people who suffer from headaches.
Michelle Moujaes:Like a patron saint of headaches?
Karen Kinan:Saint Dennis of Paris. And it's because when they went to behead him, they miscalculated, basically scalped him, and he walked around the streets of Paris holding part of his head, his scalp in his hands, preaching the gospel.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh my goodness.
Karen Kinan:So he's known as one of those intercessors for those who suffer from headaches. But if people realize that there were saints for if you went and you can you imagine kids learning about the saints of their church, let's say? Kids at Saint Luke learning about the life of Saint Luke and why and what it was he was known for. And if they were able to come and present, let's say, a PowerPoint presentation, and we had a rubric for them of these are the things we wanna know. And maybe they had saints like Saint John Maximovich where you could go to San Francisco and venerate his relics.
Karen Kinan:We have a nephew. We went on a pilgrimage. John Thomas is his name, but he goes by Jack. When he venerated the relics of Saint John Maximovich, he went back home and he asked his mother, is he my patron? He always just thought it was the forerunner, Baptist John.
Karen Kinan:And she's like, I never really thought of you know? Well, I assumed it was Saint John the forerunner. And he's like, I don't I think it's Saint John Maximovich. And since that pilgrimage, he it's almost as if Saint John said, this is the Saint John. You build a relationship.
Michelle Moujaes:He's connected to him. So okay. Getting granular again. What does that do? Why would parents want to really cultivate that kind of experience?
Karen Kinan:They're living in Christ now. They know more about our lives than we know about our lives. They're beyond time. They have left here. They are the examples for us of what it looks like to be empty yourself and have Christ live within you.
Karen Kinan:When you come upon holy people, we just put a banner up in our house of Saint Makarios. It was an exhibit at the Getty that they had brought from Mount Athos, not from Mount Athos, from Saint Catherine's monastery, in Egypt on Mount Sinai. And they had brought the icons for the first time they left the monastery. This was in 2006, 2007. And they had an exhibit at the Getty.
Karen Kinan:And we were blessed enough. People traveled from all over The United States, to come see this exhibit. We were blessed enough to go, and I had ordered the banners that sat, like, on Hollywood and Highland. Can you imagine in Hollywood banners of the saints that were from Mount Athos? They had, reprints of these, icons.
Karen Kinan:So we just put it up in our backyard, Saint Macarius. And my husband was just saying how it glows at night. He said, I really need to know more about him. Because in our old home, we had Saint Theodosia, which was also another icon that was on display for this exhibit. And so we learned about him, and he was known for the glow he had because he had Christ living with him.
Karen Kinan:And even his monastery was known as the glowing monastery. So he was shocked because for the three days before we read the story of him, he just said he glows. He glows. He glows. And sure enough,
Michelle Moujaes:he's known as the glowing saint. I love that. Mhmm. I love it. Is there anything that you both see now that you're grandparents that you wish you could have seen when you were parents?
Michelle Moujaes:Anything that like the moments where you're like, ah.
Paul Kinan:You know, when when you're in the heat of the battle, you don't see a lot of stuff.
Michelle Moujaes:That's so true.
Paul Kinan:I think one of the things that I'd work on as a young parent is changing my negative behavior. Because as we know with children, we just know that they're gonna take our good qualities and be even better. But we also know on our poor qualities on the things that we struggle with, we pass those on to our children. So it's not even a conscious thing we do, but if we can get rid of some of our bad habits, like I look back and go, I wish I would have stopped doing this a lot. I don't because I don't wanna see my sons or my daughters struggle.
Paul Kinan:So we really have to look at the stuff we don't do well. If it's an anger issue, if it's a gambling issue, if it's a drinking issue, if it's an eating, we have to look at this stuff and go, do I want this precious little three year old to struggle with this when they're 33?
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm. And you know what? Actually, I heard a story about a monk on Mount Athos. Somebody asked him, how will I know what my children's passions are as they're pursuing virtue? But, you know, we all fall prey to passions and the monks in, they'll probably look a lot like yours.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm. It's so true.
Paul Kinan:So if you want your kids to have great morals, you better change yours right now.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Paul Kinan:Right. I mean, that's what we do as
Karen Kinan:And he did that, actually. I remember when we were first married, we would he would take me to Vegas and I was never fond. I don't like the it's overstimulating. There's the lights, the sounds, the smell, the smoke. Once we had children, he said, why would I want my children to want to come to Vegas?
Karen Kinan:Mhmm. And that was it. He I mean
Paul Kinan:I didn't do it very good. I used to take them during March Madness once in a while during my yeah. I had to stop doing that. It's
Karen Kinan:a great example.
Michelle Moujaes:I mean, it it is hard. We we talk about this all the time, Willid and I. Like, how are we watching this show now? How did this show creep in?
Paul Kinan:It's so like Why are we watching this?
Michelle Moujaes:Off brand for us. Right?
Paul Kinan:Well, none of us are perfect.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Paul Kinan:None of us are perfect. We all are struggling with the same things. We're all fighting the same battles. We just need to help each other instead of criticize each other.
Michelle Moujaes:That's
Paul Kinan:right. We need to look at children and say, how can I help? Not just what's best for my child. Look, we're always gonna love our children more than anything. God gave us that beautiful trait to love children more than we love anything.
Paul Kinan:But we have to take that love. It's it's just to take all that love and just magnify it just on your children is selfish and that's not
Michelle Moujaes:So good.
Paul Kinan:We have to give that love to everybody. And it's not easy. Right? And you moms, it's super hard because you're doing everything in the world. And my wife also worked when we had kids.
Paul Kinan:She only worked a day or two a week, and because I was always self employed, I would take care of the kids on the day that she worked. Her parents helped and my parents helped on the second day, but Wednesdays were my days to stay home with kids. And I just remember Tuesday nights, boy, I'd start to break out in a sweat. And my wife, what's the matter? I gotta take care of the kids tomorrow.
Paul Kinan:Yeah. It works easy. Right?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah.
Paul Kinan:Yeah. Raising kids, I'd come home at, you know, 06:00 at night. She'd have the house in order, dinner ready, the kids are at homework done. She would come home at 03:00, 03:30 from work. Kids would still be in their pajamas.
Paul Kinan:Yeah. Yeah. I probably didn't even shower yet, but raising kids is the hardest job we're ever gonna have. It is the most rewarding, and it defines you.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Paul Kinan:And when I die someday, I don't want people to say, oh, he started this business or he owned this or he was worth this amount of money or he did. I just want people to say he's got really good kids.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Paul Kinan:He's got really good grandkids and really good nieces and nephews. His church is great. His community. I just wanna be known for the blessings that the church and the Lord gave us as Christians.
Michelle Moujaes:If you were to, see a young family sitting in the pews of church, knowing the state of the world is so heavy and that there are so many stressors that parents are up against, what would you say to them? There's protection here.
Karen Kinan:It's actually like guarding yourself. It there are it's weaponry. Like, he loves Saint Patrick's prayer.
Michelle Moujaes:Breastplate. Mhmm.
Karen Kinan:Breastplate prayer. And if people realize that you are protected
Paul Kinan:Mhmm.
Karen Kinan:And I think also if they realized when we're talking about others, it's a communal effort. You're not alone in any way, shape or form. So one not feeling alone, it's not for them to struggle by themselves.
Paul Kinan:And I tell them not to worry. We're polar opposites when it comes to that. She's the worrier. I don't worry about
Karen Kinan:Number thirty five and thirty seven of the Maxims.
Michelle Moujaes:No, they are.
Karen Kinan:No, yes, they are. Yes.
Paul Kinan:And I don't I don't worry about pretty pretty much I don't worry about not not much at all because I know the day I have to make the decision or I know that the Lord's gonna give me the right answer. If we worry about everything that's gonna come up with our kids, we're gonna worry all the time. Mhmm. But the Lord has a plan for our kids. Instead of worrying, if we just pray and have faith and follow God's plan, how to keep them in the church.
Paul Kinan:You have to keep it's not an you know, people say, well, I I'm I'm just fine. I'm out in the mountains thinking about Christ or I'm you know, when I'm helping at a homeless kitchen, I'm with Christ. Those are all wonderful things to do. We need to do them. But it's like saying I'm gonna, you know, go learn to be a doctor, but I'm not gonna go to class.
Paul Kinan:I mean, we all have to go to church. We all have to be and it's not just learning, but it's sharing and and being in communion with everybody. And every single answer that we've given you or every thought that we have that's a good thought was taught to us by somebody from our church, somebody from our family.
Michelle Moujaes:The handing down
Karen Kinan:just
Michelle Moujaes:as it was given to you. Right.
Karen Kinan:Yeah. His mother used to say, it's wonderful to have your children's children round about your table, but it's even better to have them round about your pew.
Michelle Moujaes:Round about your pew. Oh, I love that. Say that one more time.
Karen Kinan:It's wonderful to have your children's children round about your table, but it's even more so to have your children's children round about your pew.
Paul Kinan:I'm sure there are parents out here watching going, I did all that stuff.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Paul Kinan:I did all those things, or I thought I was doing it the right way, and I'm losing control of a child, or I have a child that's going down the wrong path or making wrong decisions in life. We've all done that. The beautiful thing is no matter how far your child is down on the wrong path, no matter what bad decisions they're making, they were if you raise them in the church, if their roots are in the church, they will come back. They will have that moment. We want it today, but it's you know, life's not a race and everything's in God time's not ours, but as long as we continue to pray, as long as we continue to have faith, instead of beating ourselves up about I should have done this or I should have done that, just keep loving, keep the door open, keep communication strong, and know that the Lord has his hand on your child if you've done all those things that you should
Karen Kinan:Yeah. And even if
Paul Kinan:we Every child's different. Some are easy and some are hard. I I get it.
Karen Kinan:But even if we haven't done everything we should, God's
Paul Kinan:to to
Karen Kinan:Well, and God's hand is in it. And sometimes we can't see what the suffering is about. Mhmm.
Michelle Moujaes:But the all loving merciful God does. I find it so interesting because there are those parents I've seen who have done seemingly everything right, and they'll have a kid that leaves the church or goes off on a different path than the one that we know. And then you see parents who've done literally everything wrong, and you have these faithful children who are using their whole life to glorify God. And I I think it's a good call out, which is we we each have our work to do, and we have been entrusted to steward these children. But God is still God.
Karen Kinan:God is not only has his hand and nose and loves them way more than we ever could even imagine, But also when I look upon the saints like Moses the Black or Mary of Egypt, there is not only always hope, but those are some of our most fervent intercessors because they understand the passions, they understand the suffering. By the way, there are even prayers for those who have taken their own life. There are prayers for those who have aborted their own child. We cannot even imagine God's love for us. So it doesn't the blessing, it is all just in the the sheer amount and power of God's love for us.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that.
Karen Kinan:There is no hopelessness in God ever.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. I love that.
Karen Kinan:There is no sin that is too big. There is nothing that you could have possibly ever done or your children could have ever done ever.
Michelle Moujaes:To disqualify them from the love of God. Nothing. Yeah. That's good, Karen. Okay.
Michelle Moujaes:Do you have just a few minutes for some listener questions? Sure. We got some.
Paul Kinan:Mhmm.
Michelle Moujaes:Alright. Rebecca from Richmond, Virginia is the mother of four, and she writes, my oldest two are thriving in the church. My middle two couldn't be less interested. Same house, same parents, same rhythms. Did you ever have a child who seemed to be the harder one when it came to faith?
Michelle Moujaes:And what did you do differently for that child if anything?
Paul Kinan:You know, being being a a child that didn't really like to go to church and unfortunately, I'm I'm envious of the people that can't wait to go to church, that can't wait to go to the services during Holy Week, Stay for extra services. I'm I'm don't have the focus sometimes for that, which is pathetic because I could play golf for four and a half hours and not have a
Karen Kinan:Four and a half? Try. 36 holes.
Paul Kinan:So so being a child to answer a question to a thriving two, you know, I I want you to ask this question to bishop John. And I said, bishop John, I'm all concerned. I don't don't love being in church all the time. And when I'm there, I'm distracted. And how am I gonna make it in heaven?
Paul Kinan:How am I ever gonna get to heaven? If heaven's just like a big church service, they're not gonna want me because I barely pay attention here. And he said, Paul, you know, church, heaven's like a banquet. Just imagine a party in a banquet with all the people you love, everyone you know who come before you and are here now, and even the people you don't even know yet, altogether having a great time. That's what heavens like.
Paul Kinan:So for me, you gotta change the perspective of children of church sometime, but not you gotta be there. This is what we have to do. You have to make them wanna go, and I don't know what that is sometimes. Sometimes that is getting involved in more things at church, sometimes making sure they have a friend or not everybody's blessed to go to the same churches, four generations of family or have their cousins. If you're new to a church, maybe your child doesn't wanna go there because you don't know anybody.
Paul Kinan:They don't feel comfortable with the new traditions. You don't always tell them, this is why you have to go to church. Find something that they enjoy about church. That's right. And then from there, they'll grow and find
Michelle Moujaes:what's important. Paul, and I sorry. Another shameless plug, but we actually Faith Tree is putting out our first book in just a few months, and it is by Paul and Cindy Kuros. And they talk exactly about what you just spoke about. How do we make living an engaged life in the church real?
Michelle Moujaes:Like, what are the practical things that we can do? How can we excite in our children that kind of love for the services? How do we inspire them to build relationship with the saints? So it's coming. Speaking of a plug
Karen Kinan:Yes. I know in particular that the the youth love coming when you present to them and they have a time to gather. I would say the relationship project in particular though
Michelle Moujaes:Yes. For your youth. Yes. It's a really good one, the relationship project. It's a twelve week program to help our young people understand who they are as beloved children of God, what is their identity in Christ, what does intimacy actually mean, and then what does good mental health look like?
Michelle Moujaes:That's a good one.
Karen Kinan:And the kids actually thrive in that environment, and the parents are surprised that their kids are asking them, please take me.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. I love that.
Karen Kinan:They've shared with me that they've asked. They've never asked to go, but because of it.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. Love it. Okay. I'm gonna get one more question, and then we will ask you. Come back and visit us.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. Here is from Kevin from Arizona. I have one teenage daughter, age 15. I converted to Orthodoxy as an adult, and honestly, I feel like I'm always a few step behinds. My daughter asked me all these theology questions that I can't answer.
Michelle Moujaes:Did you ever feel underqualified to raise your kids in the faith? And if so, how did you handle that?
Paul Kinan:Yes. Yes. Yes. Your kids start to know a lot more than you do.
Michelle Moujaes:So true, Paul.
Paul Kinan:What a great opportunity to say, let's sit down and learn about this together.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. That's right.
Paul Kinan:Again, when you show to your children that you wanna grow, they wanna grow. When you show them that you wanna be faithful, they wanna be faithful.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Paul Kinan:So you could still set examples when they're 15, when they're 25, when they're 35 and 40 So learn together. Look, here's the thing. The a new Orthodox that just, came to our faith years ago, they're looking up and knowing more things than a lot of us that have been Orthodox our whole life. So we need to lean on them a little bit more to learn more and to continue to teach because, they have the hungry hungry soul that we were given at birth and at our baptism, but it's yeah. It's good to see.
Paul Kinan:Do do it together with your kids.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. Anything on you?
Karen Kinan:No. I was just thinking there was one, and I can't I don't remember who to give credit to that said, preach the gospel and when necessary, use words.
Paul Kinan:Oh, that's Saint prophet Saint Assisi, Catholic saint. Saint Francis of Assisi. Yeah. Always yeah. Always said a
Karen Kinan:And it's like something like preach the gospel.
Paul Kinan:Preach the gospel when necessary. Use these words.
Karen Kinan:So it's really just living the faith. And sometimes, it's just living the faith.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. Okay. Speed round and then we'll let you go. The one thing we worried about most that turned out not to matter at all.
Paul Kinan:We worried about a lot.
Karen Kinan:That's my one worrying is one of my
Michelle Moujaes:I'm such a good worryer. I know. I have that down.
Karen Kinan:It is.
Paul Kinan:I think the main worry that you worry about is your children ending up in the right relationship with the right person, in the right faith, in the right household. And again, she probably worried about those and it was her prayers that probably helped her.
Karen Kinan:It was not.
Paul Kinan:But I didn't worry about them at all because I know God has a plan and we just need to keep plugging on.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. That's biggest
Karen Kinan:A lot less of
Paul Kinan:My my concern with kids has always been you can make mistakes. I expect you to make mistakes as children. Just don't make a mistake that ruins your life or anybody else's. So you gotta give your children the ability to make mistakes and know you're there for them to help correct them, but you can't make any of these big mistakes because it can't help you.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. These are the big ones. Anything you didn't worry about enough?
Paul Kinan:We were at the social media stage when our kids were young, so we probably didn't even know what they knew.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Paul Kinan:I would say, look at what your kids
Michelle Moujaes:are doing. Yes.
Paul Kinan:Who they're doing it with. Mhmm. And the more church things you could get them together with, still gotta watch them. We're not just because our kids go to church on Sunday doesn't mean they're immune from all the pitfalls
Michelle Moujaes:It's so true.
Paul Kinan:That's out there. So just
Michelle Moujaes:So true.
Paul Kinan:Keep an eye on them.
Karen Kinan:The Internet is a scary place. Mhmm. And I think we have to be.
Michelle Moujaes:Hypervigilant. Hypervigilant. Yes, parents. That's right.
Paul Kinan:Just pray more, stress less. That's the recipe for everything.
Michelle Moujaes:I like that. Alright. Any last words you wanna say before we thank you?
Karen Kinan:Well, you've spoken so fondly of me as your friend, but I've learned a lot in particular from you.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, get out
Karen Kinan:of here. You're gonna So I'm just saying, you know, it's interesting because when we talk about social media, your children weren't allowed to be my children, I never had to worry about it, but you made those intentional decisions not to let them be, and they're blessed for it.
Michelle Moujaes:Thank God.
Karen Kinan:And I'm sure they sat back and saw damage done to dear friends of theirs because they were. Father Kalanick Berger does a college success seminar getting people prepared. And one of the things he gives them challenges. And it's when you go away to college, do not drink for I don't know if it was the first six months or a year and sit back and watch what happens because when these kids go off on their own and they have the freedom and let's just say they go to parties and drink a little, they behave in such a way they would actually surprise themselves. So when he gives them the challenge, he says, watch what's hap watch what happens when it alters their decision making.
Karen Kinan:And those kids come back and they're surprised what their roommates, their friends might otherwise do because of that. So I learned from you. Even I use an example that you did all the time with young parents, and I'm sure you remember. It was the Disney on Ice story that you have. It's one of my all time favorite that I share with parents where you had saved up, bought nice tickets, taken them to a nice dinner, gone to a wonderful evening, and your children were just complaining a little bit about what they wanted.
Karen Kinan:And when you said, if you complain one more time, we are leaving, which many parents would have said, they complained. And rather than giving them another chance, you got up and left. Not only did you get up and leave with them saying, we promise, we promise, we promise. You said, you will also work off the cost of what those tickets were since Stad and I saved our money for it, and then they did. And then you had them earn their own outing the following time.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm. I use that example all the time. Hilarious. All the time. My poor children.
Karen Kinan:Your poor children. But as a result
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I do think sometimes it's hard to follow through when you wanna offer something. I hate it when my kids don't have everything they want. I love it when they're happy and when they feel the exhale and the joy. But if we don't hold them also to the standard, then they'll never have enough ever.
Michelle Moujaes:I agree with that. Thank you, guys. Thank you. We love you.
Karen Kinan:We love you.
Michelle Moujaes:We're so grateful for your time and your example. And thanks to you for listening. Here's what I want you to carry with you today. You are not gonna get it all right. Nobody does.
Michelle Moujaes:Not Paul and Karen, not me, not a single parent that you admire. The goal is never perfect parenting either. Right? The goal is faithful parenting. Just showing up, loving big, and staying connected to Christ and his church, and repenting as you heard Paul and Karen talk about as fast as you can when you blow it.
Michelle Moujaes:And here's the hopeful part. The things that stick, the things that actually shape a child's faith for a lifetime are not the things that we usually worry about most. They are the simple, consistent, ordinary rhythms of a home that loves God, and you can do that starting today. Starting right now this afternoon. Don't forget to download that free digital discussion guide to take this conversation deeper.
Michelle Moujaes:And if today's episode encouraged you, please share it with another parent or grandparent who needs it. Until next time.