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A weekly show from the folks at East Lansing Info breaking down all the news and happenings in East Lansing, Michigan.
WDBM East Lansing.
Introduction:This is East Lansing insider brought to you by ELI on impact eighty nine FM. In this show, we break down all of the news and happenings in the East Lansing community. And now, today's East Lansing insider.
Anna Liz Nichols:Hello, everybody. I'm East Lansing info's deputy editor, Anna Liz Nichols. And in light of recent developments in the Trump administration's immigration crackdowns, we're talking about how Michigan and East Lansing play into the national narrative on this week's episode of East Lansing insider. East Lansing notably is the only Michigan municipality on the latest version of the US Department of Justice's list sanctuary cities that president Donald Trump's administration says violates its mass deportation agenda and the health and safety of residents. President Donald Trump actually came for a visit in Detroit earlier in January and said at an event that federal government would be blocking federal dollars to sanctuary jurisdictions starting February 1.
Anna Liz Nichols:That visit occurred just days after the national story out of Minnesota where US immigration and customs enforcement agents or ICE agents shot and killed Minneapolis woman Renee Goode, sparking demonstrations across the country decrying ICE's brutality, including demonstrations in the East Lansing area. Joining me today to talk about how these national conversations about immigration impact East Lansing is staff attorney for ACLU of Michigan, Jay Kaplan. Thank you for joining me today, Jay.
Jay Kaplan:Thanks for having me, Anna.
Anna Liz Nichols:So it's my understanding with what happened with Renee Goode over in Minneapolis. The ACLU has released or encouraged people to consider some know your rights materials in order to stay safe as as people join this conversation that's happening nationally and certainly in Michigan.
Jay Kaplan:Absolutely. Yes. You know, many people want to voice their opinions and in many cases, they're outraged about what's happening around this country. And so it's important that people know what are their rights related to protest. Organizing a protest, to participating in a protest, to photographing or videotaping law enforcement, and what happens if, you know, law enforcement stops you or you're being detained?
Anna Liz Nichols:So over in East Lansing, we've had high school students do protests. We had over by a pretty popular strip mall, Eastwood Town Center. We had a a large demonstration after the Renee Goode killing. What are some of the key advice points for for people who wanna participate in this conversation in order for them to stay safe while they while they, you know, implement their first amendment rights?
Jay Kaplan:Sure. Well, the first thing is to be able to distinguish between public places versus private spaces that you know, like, let's say, in front of a restaurant or or in front of a particular business. The right to protest is protected by the first amendment, and certainly in public places like a town square or in front of a government building, you do have a right to assemble. You're not allowed to block entry to to a government building. You're not allowed to impede the the general activities that that go on in in a government building, but you certainly have a right to assemble on a sidewalk or in a street.
Jay Kaplan:And as long as you're not impeding traffic, law enforcement, if you are impeding traffic, can ask you to move to the other side of the street, or they could ask you to move back if that's impeding traffic, but you do have a right to assemble. At a privately owned space, it's basically up to the owner in what you're permitted to do. In other words, if they if they want to to allow you to to be there. And, as far as whether or not someone needs a permit to be able to march or hold a protest, basically in the general public space, you don't need a permit unless what you're doing, let's say it is a march, going to impede general traffic, then you need to get a permit, and of course the local government can't deny you that permit just because they feel that the message itself is something They can take into account, you know, if you're, you know, in terms of where you're positioned, concerns about possible violence or could something develop in, you know, to some serious altercations in deciding where you can actually stage your march or your protest. I know a lot of people are very concerned about, I want to record what's going on, and you certainly do have a First Amendment right to record what's going on with law enforcement and their interaction with the public.
Jay Kaplan:What you don't have a right to do is necessarily take your camera and interfere, you know, directly in what's going on between law enforcement and what they're doing. You certainly have a right to film. They can't try to take your camera away or or prevent you, from doing so. Now at a private entity, which I think is less likely that people are gonna be engaging in a protest there, the owner of a property can set limits on can you film, you know, can you use your camera there because it's their own property. But I think it's more likely you're gonna see people out in the public area, and there certainly is a right.
Jay Kaplan:If law enforcement detains you, you have a right. You you want we wanna ask people to stay calm and peacefully protest so it it doesn't escalate into to any kind of violent altercations. But, you know, if you are stopped by law enforcement, you wanna try to remain calm, keep your hands to your side. You have a right to ask why you're being stopped. They have to have a reasonable suspicion that you are either engaging in criminal activity or about to engage in criminal activity in order to to stop you.
Jay Kaplan:If you are detained, if you're under arrest, you have the right to remain silent until you speak to an attorney. You don't have to consent to a search, but they can do
Jay Kaplan:a general pat down on you to determine, you know, whether
Jay Kaplan:or not there might be a weapon on you. It's important, you know, if you observe what you believe to be violations by law enforcement that, you write things down, that you get the names of any and all witnesses to to an incident like that, and, of course, you have your recording as well.
Anna Liz Nichols:Concerns over the presence of immigration or ICE agents is a conversation happening statewide. I would be interested to hear, you know, what kind of conversations and concerns ACLU has at this time. But over in Mid Michigan, we have had the presence of immigration agents, not necessarily ICE agents, but immigration related agents have been in our area.
Jay Kaplan:Sure. Which is Same here where I'm at too in the Metro Detroit area. We have ICE agents in the mall and on, you know, some of the main thoroughfares like Woodward Avenue in different areas. And the bottom line is, you know, certainly private property owners, they don't have to let ICE agents in without a judicial warrant, you know, looking for someone. If it's a place, let's say they're looking for someone, let's say it's a restaurant, if it's open to the public, you have to permit ICE agents to be there in the public, but at private spaces, like let's say people working in the kitchen, you don't have to allow ICE entry without a judicial warrant.
Jay Kaplan:And they don't have the right just to, you know, just based on trying to find people just to roam through things and to go into people's private spaces without that judicial warrant. And as we saw, the United States Supreme Court Justice Kavanaugh, they're called the Kavanaugh Stop, is, for the time being, allowing racial profiling of individuals based on their skin or their language for ICE agents to, you know, to at least make stops, to ask questions in pursuit of what they maintain are criminal illegal immigrants. But we've seen obviously a great deal of abuse by some of those ICE agents and I think it's reflective of a lack of training, a lack of organization, and you know, a lot of rogiveness that's going on there that certainly raises some very serious constitutional concerns. But, you know, people could should not be routinely stopped by ICE agents just be because they happen to be in the area without there being a reasonable suspicion. And, in terms of being detained, you know, or or or going into places and wanting to detain people, they should have a judicial warrant for something like that.
Anna Liz Nichols:As you said, there there's you have the legal right to record and and and other truths about our law.
Jay Kaplan:Okay.
Anna Liz Nichols:But at the same time, you've mentioned the robeness that exists with with
Jay Kaplan:this department. Right.
Anna Liz Nichols:And also the the rules of what they can do changed on on the weekly. That's not a a a caricature. It's Well, they can't be violent. Change all the time.
Jay Kaplan:They cannot engage in violence against people who are there peacefully protesting, and they can't engage in violence because someone is is is, you know, advocating their first amendment rights. Even if someone's yelling at them, is insulting them. You know, the bottom line, I think the best way are people to, if they're able to, to show up and have their presence there and to be there in peaceful protest. I think, you know, we've seen some resistance efforts where people who are aware they see ICE agents. They have a whistle to inform people.
Jay Kaplan:We've heard, you know, things about neighborhood watch. If if they hear that ICE, folks are in the neighborhood, You know, they should not be going to people's houses unless they have this judicial warrant. It just shouldn't be this, you know, kind of search and, intimidate kind of mission. So I think when when people show up and they're recording, you know, we probably, without the recording of what happened to Renee Goode, if we relied on what ICE said, what the Department of Homeland Security said, we wouldn't get the actual truth and the actual information. So, that's of great concern.
Jay Kaplan:So, we have to be those witnesses. Know, the bottom line, we are a democracy and we have a constitution and we have certain protections and constitutional rights, including that First Amendment right, and we need to exercise those rights And any effort to try to intimidate people or coarse people or to violate of their rights, we need to speak up, and we need to speak out. And we need to if if if congress isn't going to do it or if the courts aren't gonna fully do it, then we then then we need to do it in terms of recording this and making a record of what's happening. And you did see in Minnesota, I believe federal judge issued an injunction against ICE basically saying, you know, you can't be harassing people just because they show up to protest. And you can't just randomly stop people because you're looking for information without that judicial warrant, without, you know, reasonable suspicion that, you know, crime is being created, you you you can't do that sort of thing is to harass and intimidate people, and that's really important.
Jay Kaplan:And if we are going to have ICE purportedly, you know, for illegal people who are here illegally who have engaged in crimes, there has to be certain parameters that they have to follow, just like we we require that with other branches of law enforcement. They don't get a free pass just because they you know, they're they're heavily funded, you know, of through through through, you know, that that recent bill that that passed last June, and we need to call that out, and we need to challenge those things. But I think what we're witnessing, and this might be more my own personal take on this, is really an attack on our democracy and our functioning of the three branches of government. We don't seem to see quite that accountability with our legislative branch, at least at this point in time, at least with the majority, and our highest court has kind of been dragging its feet on many aspects of what's been happening with this administration. And so it's really up to the people, the people with with our voices to be heard and to speak up and to speak out and to to call out these wrong things, and and we can make a difference.
Anna Liz Nichols:That's interesting because, like I said, we we had our one of our local high schools did a protest. East Lansing, obviously, has has so far held firm on its sanctuary city status. The future of that status, I am not sure, is solid considering, you know, there are new members in our city council. We had an election in November that have, expressed their interest in reconsidering our sanctuary city status. There has been correspondence from the Trump administration to East Lansing beseeching them to undo their sanctuary city status.
Anna Liz Nichols:I was wondering from the ACLU of Michigan's perspective because there's a conversation about how valuable is a sanctuary city status when it can, quote, unquote, put a target on your back under this administration.
Jay Kaplan:Well, this this administration is targeting just about everybody and every entity that is trying to stand up for its rights. But if you but if we have people and institutions capitulating because they're afraid or anticipating bad consequences and then giving in, then, you know, then they've succeeded. And I think when there's a basis to challenge the legality of this, the bottom line is the executive branch doesn't have the doesn't have the constitutional authority to take back funding that's already been appropriated by congress. That's congress's, authority to be able to do so. And absent some kind of law saying that, you know, we, you know, we can rescind funding based on this or it's part of a contract, you know, a condition for receiving federal funding, then they can't do that.
Jay Kaplan:And if every time we're afraid what this administration is doing this is okay. Let's talk about my work with LGBTQ rights. Michigan, in the last five years, five or so years, we've been we've we're looked at as a good state on LGBTQ rights, and we were able to pass legislation that amended our state civil rights laws to include sexual orientation and gender identity and expression as protected categories. We became, I think, the twenty second or the twenty third state, to be able to do this. But if we have the Trump administration coming in saying, you must discriminate against transgender people and transgender students.
Jay Kaplan:And if you don't, we're gonna take away your federal funding. We're violating our state civil rights laws if we automatically capitulate. So we we need to call out these, and we need to, once again, question the legality. Our president, despite his his, you know, his his statements, is not king, and he alone does not set the laws and policy of the state, nor does his administration. And you've seen countless times the actions by this administration that have been challenged in the federal courts and in many cases, successfully challenged in saying, no.
Jay Kaplan:You can't do that. And we have to do that. We have to resist things that we know to be wrong, to to violate constitutional rights, and all of us have a voice. All of us have the ability to do something, and we have to figure out what that something is, and we have to do it. Otherwise, you know, are we gonna just give up the game just because someone says I'm going to do this?
Jay Kaplan:The whole purpose of this administration is to create fear in people. And through this ICE program, sending, you know, ICE agents and the National Guard to cities, and usually cities are considered to be progressive, or let's just be blunt, democratic cities as a way to to try to to cow, individuals and institutions to to doing the bidding of this administration. But when we, you know, like I said, when people exercise their constitutional rights, including the First Amendment, we can make a difference. You know,
Anna Liz Nichols:the reality is in 2024 sorry. I forget what year it is, Constance. In 2024, the state of Michigan did pick Trump. They, in fact, they picked Trump in 2016 as well. So there are ergo probably are a majority of Michiganders who voted and and agree with the Trump administration's policies.
Anna Liz Nichols:So I was wondering
Jay Kaplan:if I I think it's interesting. You have to look at what that platform was. I realized there was project 2025, which during the campaign, candidate Trump said he knew nothing about. And, obviously, when he came into office, many of the executive orders were almost written verbatim as part of project twenty twenty five. But when you poll voters what their what their most, you know, pressing concerns were were the cost of living and affordability and and the issue of inflation.
Jay Kaplan:And there were statements made by candidate Trump that he was gonna, you know, take care of prices day one. You know? And I don't know. I mean, if you look at the current polling today, it does seem like a majority of Americans don't agree, certainly with the with the ICE tech, the tactics that ICE is using, or how the the you know, this issue with regarding, illegal immigration is being handled at this point in time. So I would surmise that some people might be having buyer's remorse or saying this is not what I voted for.
Jay Kaplan:This is not the the main thing that that that I wanted, this administration to focus on.
Anna Liz Nichols:Mhmm. And I don't know if you have seen some of these videos. Minnesota is one of our Midwestern neighbors, and I don't know if you've seen I think late night talk show hosts have been have been poking fun at this of of its ICE agents coming to Minnesota in the middle of, you know, our our harshest section of winter. Right. Some slipping on ice, some struggling to drive in the snow.
Anna Liz Nichols:And so Minnesotans who are famously known for being kind are are poking fun. I think this appeared on SNL as well where they're like, you know how bad you have to be for a Minnesota to make fun of you. I was wondering, you know, that's our Midwestern neighbor, and we see how Minnesota is rallying to decry what happened to Renee Goode. I was wondering over in Michigan, we are we are a flip state. We're full of a menagerie of political ideologies.
Anna Liz Nichols:What you expect from Michigan? I mean, we have some lawmakers that are are very supportive of supportive of the Trump administration, have appeared on stages with him during his campaign. We also have other half the other side of the coin, Democrat lawmakers that appeared with Harris and and and are vehemently opposed to what's happening in in Minnesota and other, Democrat led areas.
Jay Kaplan:Mhmm.
Anna Liz Nichols:I know it's kind of a a silly, like, not predict the future question, but what are you, you know, expecting from Michigan in the coming days in terms of its response to what has happened and and how it might either fall in line with the Trump administration or or fight back?
Jay Kaplan:Well, I hope we won't see this besiegement that we've seen in in Minneapolis where where people are living in fear and and feeling being harassed, and and people have been violently attacked by by certain ICE agents and, of course, the tragic death of Renee Goode. I would hope if something like that would happen that that people here in Michigan also and I do, you know, I do believe there have been protests and stuff throughout our state with regarding in response to to Renee Goode's death and regarding to, you know, some of the behaviors of of of the ICE operation. So I would hope that would continue. You know, the ACLU, we are a nonpartisan organization. We don't endorse either political party, but we do feel very strongly that that people do have the right to vote, and they need to exercise that right.
Jay Kaplan:And I would hope that, you know, people looking for their voice and their ability to do things certainly participate in protests and in response to to some of the some of these policies that that certainly raise serious constitutional issues, but also hope that people vote this November. That's that's probably the strongest opportunity that people have to register how they feel about things. But, you know, what happened in the twenty twenty four election, I believe more people did not vote than voted for either candidate. And when you have something like that, you know, we can end up with policies and programs and challenges to to our constitutional rights that maybe no one really expected or or no one thought could happen. We have to participate, and we have to be informed too.
Jay Kaplan:Mhmm.
Anna Liz Nichols:Is ACLU having conversations? Have you heard from other state advocacy groups? Have plans been formulated? Is there an expectation that we might see a similar situation to the onslaught of ICE presidents in Minneapolis that
Jay Kaplan:That I don't know. That I don't know. I do know there have been conversations with, you know, a number of organizations about what if this happens and and how do we how do we plan for this and how do we inform people about what their rights and their responsibilities are, how to get this kind of information out. Like I said, it's not that Michigan has just remained dormant while all these things have gone on. Saw the No Kings event in October, the huge turnouts in different communities throughout our state, and and, you know, there's a lot of different grassroots organizations and local groups that are registering their their feelings and their opinions about things that are going on there.
Jay Kaplan:I do believe there are conversations about what if this happens in our state, because this is this is just not the way that we function, you know, in terms of a democracy. This is not the way we've seen things that, to you try to intimidate people because maybe their beliefs are different than the administration or maybe they don't agree with everything with the administration's policies. So, you know, I I think the goal is to be prepared and ready if and I and it's a big if if this if this should happen.
Anna Liz Nichols:Is there somewhere people can find online, what your guys' advisement is on protests?
Jay Kaplan:Yes. Yes. They can they can actually just do a Google search ACLU, your rights to protest. And there's that doc you know, there's that document, and it sets forth different scenarios. And, you know, if they have specific questions about something that happened then they can contact us, can go on our website www.aclumich.org and there's a portal to you know to request assistance or if you have a question about something and somebody will get back to them about that.
Anna Liz Nichols:Thank you so much for joining us for the podcast. I really appreciate it.
Jay Kaplan:My pleasure.
Jay Kaplan:Eastlands Day Insider is brought to you by ELI on Impact eighty nine FM. We are on the web at eastlancinginfo.newsandimpact89fm.org. Thanks for listening.