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"Winning in Ministry" is a podcast dedicated to empowering church leaders and ministry professionals with the tools and insights needed to thrive in their spiritual and organizational roles. Each episode features engaging discussions with experienced pastors, ministry experts, and thought leaders who share their wisdom on effective leadership, congregational growth, and navigating the challenges of modern ministry. Whether you're looking for inspiration, practical advice, or strategies to enhance your ministry's impact, "Winning in Ministry" offers valuable content to help you lead with confidence and purpose. Tune in to discover how to overcome obstacles, foster a vibrant church community, and achieve success in your ministry journey.
The minister's manifesto. What is it? What are we supposed to do with it? Why was it created?
Ray:What causes pastors to drift from their calling?
Tom:How can ministers stay the course and finish strong?
Ray:In this episode of the Winning in Ministry podcast, we dive into a conversation that brings clarity to a minister's calling. It's focused on shaping not just us as a servant, but as warrior for the kingdom.
Intro voice:You're listening to the Winning in Ministry podcast where members of the Edify Leaders ministry coaching team share insights and inspiration they have gained as they seek to strengthen ministers for exponential impact in life and ministry. And now, here are your hosts, Ray Sanders and Tom Matthew.
Ray:Welcome to this edition of the Winning in Ministry podcast. I'm your host, Ray Sanders, and along with me today, as always, is mister Tom Matthew.
Tom:Glad to be on here, Ray, with you, especially as we're talking about the minister's manifesto. Mhmm. Now if you're there and you're going, oh, Tom, what is that minister's manifesto that thou speakest of? It's a piece that our edify leaders team put together as a resource to serve as an anchor for pastors and ministry leaders. You can find the link in the show notes or you can head over to edifyleaders.org and click the ministry section.
Tom:You'll be able to see it in its entirety. But especially in a time where it feels like just about every day you're seeing the headline of another pastor falling from grace, The manifesto was created to serve as a reminder to ministers on what we've been called to do and how we've been called to do it.
Ray:You know, Tom, I can tell you there was much thought, as you know, a lot of prayer that went into crafting this manifesto. I remember the day we had the final version. We go, wow. This isn't as of us. This is something the Lord has given us.
Ray:Yep. You know, every word of that manifesto. And today, we wanna talk through why these are such important values for ministers to uphold and to try to shoot for, to try to stay the course and finish the race strong. And I can't think of any better guys to have on the show to talk about the minister's manifesto than doctor Anthony Jordan and doctor Rick Fries. You guys, thanks for being here today.
Ray:Welcome to the show. Please tell our listeners a little bit about yourselves, a little bit about your background.
Anthony (Dr.J):Okay, Rick. I'll go first.
Rick:There you go.
Anthony (Dr.J):Well, I was a pastor for twenty eight years and and then became the executive director of Oklahoma Baptist for twenty two years and spent my life in ministry. Started when I was 19. Been in ministry for fifty seven years.
Rick:Well, I I joined the ministry when I was 15 and pastored my first church at 18. And from had been on, I've been pastoring ever since. Been in ministry now fifty four years. I pastored in Arkansas and pastored the last forty plus years in the great state of Oklahoma and, love, love being a part of Edify Leaders and what God's doing there.
Tom:Mhmm. Well, it's awesome. We're excited to have you both on here. As seasoned leaders who have been in ministry for a long time, like Ray was saying, I can't think of two better people to be able to speak into the importance of this, what you've walked through, your journey in life. I know that's gonna help, guide why we put these things into the manifesto.
Tom:It's gonna help us understand the importance of it. Now we're gonna break this down, kind of section by section here in just a moment. But before we did that, I wanted to have Ray just read the minister's manifesto in its entirety so that you as a listener, as a guest, are able to chew on it, process it, take it in one piece.
Ray:You know, Tom, I wanna remind folks that they can go to the edify leaders website. They can, see the minister's manifesto there. Now we are not saying that this is the be all, that's a creed, something you have to sign. Really, we we want it to be a word of encouragement. We want it to be a challenge.
Ray:Certainly, every minister will have to adapt this to their own personality, their own identity. I think one thing's for sure, even talking with doctor Jordan before the show, we're certainly called to be bold and courageous. But every minister will have to think and apply, what we're challenging them with with this minister's manifesto. Yeah. But let me go ahead and read it for us.
Ray:Just take a little bit and read the minister's manifesto, and then we'll dive into it. So it's it says, the minister's manifesto. I'm not here to play it safe. I'm called to lead with courage and conviction. I will fight the good fight of faith with everything I've got.
Ray:My first ministry is at home. My family deserves my best energy, my deepest love, my fiercest devotion. Every decision and every act reflects my unwavering commitment to them. As iron sharpens iron, I lock arms with leaders who call out my potential and hold me accountable. True growth demands real vulnerability.
Ray:That's where God's power transforms weakness into strength and true healing can begin. This calling forges the warrior within, a mind armed with the truth, a body fit for battle, a spirit ablaze with passion and purpose. The church isn't a museum for saints. It's a community of radically transformed sinners, not a building, but a body of believers found in the trenches with the outcast, the broken, the forgotten, and the wounded. I'm raising up an army of deeply devoted disciples, empowered and equipped to relentlessly pound the gates of heaven with audacious prayers.
Ray:Commit to using the word as a weapon against darkness. Advance the gospel with undeniable boldness. Love our neighbors with radical compassion. Live out real authentic faith in biblical community. Not content with maintaining embers.
Ray:I'm igniting hearts on fire, not satisfied with tired programs. I'm deploying kingdom special forces, not seeking fleeting applause. I'm waging war for the cause of Christ until my city encounters the transforming power of the cross. I'm a minister of the gospel. I'm a warrior for God's kingdom.
Ray:I'm all in. Sold out. Fully surrendered. This isn't just what I do. It is who I am.
Ray:And I press on until I hear, well done, my good and faithful servant. For his glory, I will lead. That is the edified leaders ministers manifesto. Doctor
Tom:J, pastor Rick, I'm curious. When you hear that, when you saw that for the first time, what did you think? What did you feel?
Anthony (Dr.J):Well, I think it's bold. It's challenging, but it's very biblical in what it says. I'm actually reminded of God's word to Joshua. Be strong and courageous. That's good.
Anthony (Dr.J):And to me, when I read the manifesto, it is a challenge to us to be strong and courageous in all that we do, and particularly in this thing called ministry as we serve others and serve the flock of God as shepherds. That's really good.
Rick:I I couldn't agree more with doctor Jay. I'll be honest with you. When I first saw this and read it, I first looked at it, I thought, man, I wish I'd had this when I first started in ministry. Because it was it was challenging. It was very forthwith in, I think, speaking to the heart of every pastor if he's honest.
Rick:And I tell you what I've done with it. I've actually put it together, and, I'm in the process of doing it right now and and framing it and giving it to the guys I'm coaching to hang on along. Because as I read it, it just to me, it's something to be honest with you, y'all to look at daily. Y'all just kinda look at it and remind yourself, man, this is I I love the fact this is my calling. Mhmm.
Rick:You know? I'm I I'll be honest. When I looked at it, I thought, man, this this can cause you to go against hell with a squirt gun.
Anthony (Dr.J):You know?
Rick:That's right. Because it's just it just builds you up. It and I think every pastor needs to be reminded from time to time. There's not a one of us probably didn't come in on a Monday morning and go, I'm done. I quit.
Rick:I think, man, just to look at that and go, wow. No. I'm not done. So I'm I'm thankful for it. It's encouraging.
Rick:It's challenging. It you didn't soft pedal it whatsoever, And I think it's it's bold, and I think it's something that, to be honest with you, every pastor ought to have in his office to look at. Well, I
Tom:think it's one of those things that I like the idea that you're talking about framing it because it should be something that's there that you're you're keeping in front of you to keep you focused and staying the course. Right? Like you said, there's gonna be those days. It it keeps you from getting too high or too low and focused on what you've been called to do. Right?
Tom:Hey. This is what it's about. Because I think otherwise too, you could get too low or you can get too high and be like, I think this is working. I'm gonna start going in this direction and follow a trend or follow a pattern instead of what I've been called to do. Who have who have I been called to create, you know, whatever I've been called to do.
Tom:And so I think that's great.
Anthony (Dr.J):One of the things I wanted to I would like to add is, you know, when I first read it, it resonates with me because I'm I'm a type a personality, and I know Ray well enough to know that that has a lot to do with who he is as well. But the fact is you look at scripture, and you find that leaders are made in all shapes and sizes. Yep. And what I see about the the manifesto is that it doesn't matter what your personality type is, what your background. The fact is it says it like it is, that it becomes a part of you so that you work it out in your life and the personality that you are that God has given you, how he has shaped you.
Anthony (Dr.J):Yep. But at the same time, it doesn't matter if we are introverted or extroverted. There are a few pastors that are introverted, not many. But or whether you're a bold, take charge kind of person or a more laid back shepherd type, the manifesto speaks to who you need to be and who I need to be as a minister of the gospel no matter what her personality.
Rick:Well said. Absolutely.
Tom:That's good. You know, one of the the the first section that we actually come to here's what it says. I'm just gonna repeat this and then ask a question out of that. It says, my first ministry is at home. My family deserves my best energy, my deepest love, my fiercest devotion.
Tom:Every decision and every action reflects my unwavering commitment to them. So as we look at that right there, why do you think this gets often overlooked or disregarded?
Anthony (Dr.J):Tyranny of the urgent. Don't you think?
Rick:Yeah.
Anthony (Dr.J):Rick, tyranny of the urgent. Absolutely. Always having things pressing at you, always things pulling at you, people pulling at you. And so it's very hard to stay on point. It's hard to we're we're pleaser.
Anthony (Dr.J):We're people pleasers if we're in ministry, most of us. And it's it's hard to say no even though it is demanded of us in order that we say yes to our family. Our family is the most important part of our life. If we don't the scripture is very plain. If we're a bishop, a leader, an elder, if we don't care for our own family, then we can't care for the flock of God.
Anthony (Dr.J):But the tyranny of the urgent is always pressing on us.
Ray:Mhmm.
Anthony (Dr.J):Yeah. That's good.
Rick:Well, doctor Jay's right. How many of us have seen pastors, you know, not take care of home and family and their ministry is destroyed. And so I think it has to be first. It's what God established was the home and the family. And, if we if we do a good job there and making sure that I always realize that, you know, I could teach my kids, you know, how to whether it's go hunting, play golf, go fishing, play baseball, basketball, whatever.
Rick:But the most important thing that I did in life was to make sure that I disciple them and equip them to walk with God. Mhmm. As as great as being an athlete, as great as being all the other things. And and you and I know today, parents are competing today because Sunday is just like any other day. Yeah.
Rick:And so, you know, you've got sporting events. You got this thing. You got that thing. And so I always try to to realize this even as a pastor that my kids could be involved in sports and those kind of things, but I I made sure that they understood and their coaches understood that, hey. Sunday, we go to church.
Rick:We're gonna worship. And and I think that as a pastor, you know, we've gotta make sure that we're we're being what we're supposed to be and loving and caring for our kids. And I knew one day, I didn't want God to say, hey. You did you did a great job at pastoring your church, but you failed at home and family. That has to be the priority.
Rick:That has to be the number one thing. And you do that well, God will bless you, and you'll you'll have the time to pastor and do what you're supposed to do.
Ray:I love the line, you're only as good of a leader as you are at home. It has to start there. It is the disqualifier. If we're not leading at home, it can disqualify us from leading at the church. Can I can I add one thing
Tom:to this or one question that I had? How would you guys say doctor Jordan, both of you guys mentioned the tyranny of the urgent. Amidst the tyranny of the urgent, how do you carve out time for your family? How how do you practically how did you guys practically implement things to make sure the family was a priority?
Anthony (Dr.J):I think one of the ways is literally just schedule. Mhmm. And then Yeah. Don't think I didn't want my kids to know that my calendared them, but I'd but I did. I had to because there were always things that were going on that were calling.
Anthony (Dr.J):I also, I think, giving priority to special events that they have. I remember and you some of you might not understand, but it's really tough for me when I would say no and go to one of my kids' things on a a Wednesday night or some event was happening at the church, and I would go to something that was very special. Not just average thing, but something very special. So they knew that they had a point. One of the things I I know Rick feels strongly about and is our wives.
Anthony (Dr.J):It's hard. Our wives are in the front line of everything in that they hear the they hear the gossip, the behind the scenes. They hear the negative things as well as the good things. And and they are keeping the family together in a lot of ways because they they are taking care of the kids. I wish I had done better, frankly.
Anthony (Dr.J):I look back over the years. Paula was such a a blessing to me, and she was such an incredible support to me. But I think sometimes I let the tear and the urgent rip time from her that we should've that we should've given. I think taking time with your family and special events, carving out time that that allows you to focus on them. That's good.
Rick:And and I agree. I you you do have to if you're gonna make them a priority, then you've gotta schedule things. I think it's I love what Anthony said, that there are times you got a church event that you because it was something very special and very significant in the life of your son or daughter, that you made them the priority, and and you went to it, and you did that. I think that's critical. It's it's one of those things that I I you have to work at because there's as a pastor, there's always somebody pulling at you.
Rick:Always. And one of the things I tried to do as well was with my staff. I'd I'd I made sure my staff understood that, hey. Priority was an important thing when it came to your family. I remember looking at my staff before when maybe their wife was going to the doctor she was expecting, and I would look at them and and say, why are you here?
Rick:You go be with her. And so I've tried to create an atmosphere of where kids and family were important, and they understood that. I knew they were gonna get the job done, but I think when you raise that bar among your staff as well, then everybody understands. And I would say it to the church. You know?
Rick:It's, again, just like Anthony said before, you you've gotta bring the church along. You help them understand. And I think when you're preaching and teaching, home and family are important in your life, in your career, then it becomes an atmosphere of the church as well so they don't look bad at the pastor Yeah. You know, when he does that. So it's a teaching process, and it's bringing the family along.
Rick:And and to be honest with you, I told Diane, you gotta hold me accountable. You know, as Anthony said, man, listen. Our wives are they're the super glue in so many ways because we could not do ministry without them. But I would tell her, hey. You hold me accountable.
Rick:If you see me drifting, you you make sure I get back to the center if I'm supposed to do. Okay.
Ray:I had one thing here. I don't think it's always those big monumental moments. Sometimes it's just being present, being present. And it could be on a special ride to and from the church in the car with dad. And not every ride in the car has to be, I gotta seize the opportunity to take advantage of a captive audience and pound my kid with more spiritual knowledge or all those kind of things.
Ray:Just be in the moment and let them be a kid stopping and swinging and buy them some bubble gum. Get them a soda pop. Swing into Sonic when you got a few extra minutes and just hang out. Live in the moment. Seize the moment.
Ray:The, the memories are made in the margin. It's that little bit of margin. I wouldn't want you to always live in the margin, but recognize when you have that moment, seize that opportunity. There's a great book called the power of the moment that I would highly, highly recommend.
Anthony (Dr.J):Could I add just some practical idea? You know, my son loved music, contemporary music. And so I'd go lay on the bed beside him and listen to his contemporary music, which I didn't personally just care all that much about. But I would do that so I could have connection with him. One of the things I did with my daughter that I found to be the most cherished thing, I look back on as the greatest thing in the world, is I would have a father daughter date.
Anthony (Dr.J):And we did that right. I remember especially on one occasion, I had a friend who provided the door for us to go to the petroleum club in Oklahoma City. And it was just we dressed up. It was the most special event. And she still looks back on those times, and she's gonna be 40 this year.
Anthony (Dr.J):She looks back on those times as some of the special times we ever had.
Ray:Excellent. That's really good. Yep. You know, this next section this next section was meant to challenge a problem that many ministers unfortunately face, and that is loneliness and isolation. Why do you think this is a reality for so many ministers and and how can we fight against it?
Ray:Let me read the phrase from the manifesto. It says, as iron sharpens iron, I lock arms with leaders who call out my potential and hold me accountable. True growth demands real vulnerability. That's where God's power transforms weakness into strength, and true healing can begin. I I know that this section was motivated out of the scripture in James five sixteen and that if we confess our sins one to another, the healing begins.
Ray:And unfortunately, so many pastors, so many ministers feel like they can't be honest, open, and transparent. We call that being hot. Honest, open, and transparent. But they live in such isolation and loneliness, they don't know who they can trust. So so talk about this, and and why is it such a reality?
Rick:Well, I will tell you guys. I think it happens because guys wanna keep the cards too close to their chest. Again, they don't feel like they can trust and be open. I think that when you have a very close friend, accountability partner, he's gonna love you no matter what. And if you call him, you know, he's not gonna give you the third degree like, well, why did you do that dumb decision or whatever?
Rick:He's gonna say, where are you at? What can I do for you? And you have in the studio the guy that was for me, and that's doctor Jordan. Anthony and I prayed together a lot. We prayed about things for our family, our sons, our our daughters, and I could tell him anything, and he would love me no matter what.
Rick:He could do that for me. And I think that's why we have been so close to the years. I think I think God only gives you maybe three or four really, really close guys that you can be open with and honest with. Most guys don't feel they can do that with a church member. You know, I've had a a few that I could be that way with, but far few than, than not.
Rick:I only can think of probably two men in my life in a church where that happened. It was gonna be another pastor, but it was somebody that you could really sit down with and be open and transparent with, take the mask off, be real, and knew that no matter what. I I have a saying, we're all one choice away from stupidity. All of us. No.
Rick:And if you ever think that you're not, that's the pride before the fall. Mhmm. And so all of us have done stupid things before. And if I've done those stupid things, I could call him and say, hey. I blew it.
Rick:I did this. And he walked me through it. So I I think everybody's gotta have that guy. You've gotta be open enough to be that. I know for me and him, whether it's in my office or his office or just somewhere else, we have knelt and shed a lot of tears That's right.
Rick:As we have prayed for our kids, as we prayed about situations. And I will I will forever cherish that, and I think that's what made me a better pastor to keep me where I needed to be.
Anthony (Dr.J):Well and, of course, Rick, is that for me as well? I have three men in my life that I have that kind of relationship with that are ministers themselves and that I can interact. I would because Rick did so well with that, let me take a little different tack into saying that you have to be intentional about this. You you cannot just hope it happens. It happens naturally in some ways as you get to know people, but you have to be intentional about developing that relationship.
Tom:Yeah.
Anthony (Dr.J):Rick and I met a hundred years ago, and and we had began just a a casual friendship. But as we spent time together and talked together, it developed into the kind of relationship that he's talked about that we have with one another. But you have to be intentional about finding those people. And I I fear that that's where a lot of guys go wrong. They just kinda well, I don't have anybody.
Anthony (Dr.J):Yep. Well, go talk to some guys in your circle of influence. Find somebody that you can I've always sought out somebody. I mean, sometimes it was a professor at college or it was a director of missions or it was another pastor or friend, but I I needed that. I had to have that personally.
Anthony (Dr.J):Yeah. So be intentional about it. I would also there there are levels of this relationship. I think that what Rick and I have talked about our relationship is on a higher level. But I've also discovered there is I don't mean lower in the sense of less important, but it's it's not quite as intense as what Rick and I can be with one another.
Anthony (Dr.J):I found that with men in my church. When I came to Northwest Baptist Church, there were six men sat around a table and said, pastor, we're gonna support you and follow you as long as you preach the word and stay true to the word. In those six men, I found some of the greatest insight. They became my confidants, particularly in relationship to ministry and what was going on in the church. I could sit down and talk with them, give them my crazy ideas, and they'd be honest back with me.
Anthony (Dr.J):And so it's a different level, but I think an important level. And I've had that with other I know Rick's had that with some guys in his churches across the years Absolutely. That I could lean on in that regard. Maybe I didn't tell them everything was going on in my life as I would to Rick, but it was all but it was a great help to me to have those kind of men who I knew cared about, loved me, prayed for me, and were gonna stand with me and be honest with me, particularly in relationship to the ministry and the church.
Ray:Mhmm. I can tell you that this very topic is at the foundation of why edify leaders was founded. Because when we would survey pastors early on and ask them about the potential for a ministry such as edify leaders, one of the things that we discovered that every pastor needed a Jethro. Every every pastor needed a Jonathan, and certainly they needed a closer walk with Jesus. And that's what edify leaders does in many ways is it fills, fills a gap.
Ray:I don't think that, the goal is for the edify leaders coach to be that sole person in someone's life. I think that we need to live it out with either a Jethro or a Jonathan and certainly the Lord. But if someone's listening today and they say, well, I don't have anybody or anyone, well, you you can, go online and reach out to edify leaders, and we can get you started for sure. Don't live in isolation.
Anthony (Dr.J):That's right.
Tom:Well, I like what you both are saying because it it's there's a mindset that can happen where you quickly realize, I'm by myself.
Rick:Mhmm.
Tom:Right? Because everybody else in the church, they can connect with one another. But you guys have probably been in the same boat where you're in a small group, but you're not as vulnerable as everyone else because you can't be. Right? So there's that mindset that you have to get past, but there's an intentionality.
Tom:And I think one of the things, honestly, is you've gotta stop seeing other pastors as competition and rather see them as comrades. Exactly. Right? You've gotta see them. And and and, again, not every pastor is gonna be a friend, but if you're seeing them as competition, then you're not even gonna try.
Tom:And a lot of this, I feel like even as you both were talking, were developed organically, but it took time, and it took, well, let's meet for coffee or let's hang out. And over time, it developed and became you guys praying for one another and and and and being there shedding tears together. But that didn't happen unless both of you were intentional True. And said we need each other. Absolutely.
Tom:You know? So I think that's really good. I wanna move on to kind of another question because I I think one of the things that can happen with pastors is, especially in culture and society and even in the church world, they can be painted as being soft. Hey. They don't have a backbone or they're not standing up or, you know, they can be painted in that sort of way.
Tom:But something that we say in the manifesto and something that we're passionate about at Edify Leaders is help ministers to be seen in the right light, for them to be seen in the right light and for society and culture to see them in the right light, and that's to be seen as warriors. What are your thoughts on this?
Rick:R.
Anthony (Dr.J):J? Well, I think for me, the the the being strong and not being soft comes back to standing on the word of God. Now I've heard some preachers say, well, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna tell you the blunt truth. Well, I'm not too interested in your blunt truth. I am interested in truth, and I'm interested in truth that is spoken with love.
Anthony (Dr.J):Yeah. That's good. Let me give an illustration out of my own life. I think anybody in Oklahoma who knows me knows that that one of my passions has been pro life and speaking to the issue of abortion. Well, you're not gonna win a lot of accolades being a a strong pro life ad advocate.
Anthony (Dr.J):And yet I don't know how anybody who looks at the bible can come away any other way. That's just honest. But I learned something in the process. I remember a pastor saying to me, well, I wish I was where you were. And I said, well, let's just take the time to walk through the scripture together, and and let's see.
Anthony (Dr.J):I'm gonna I'm gonna pray for you, and I I think you're gonna get to the right place. Well, he ended up being a strong pro life leader in one of our cities here in Oklahoma because I didn't just say, well, you're stupid because you didn't get the word of God. So
Ray:That's good.
Anthony (Dr.J):I think standing on the word, speaking the truth in love. I also learned just in general. I never preach on abortion that I do not extend grace because I can tell you over and over again, I've experienced preaching on that subject and extending grace and having people come to me and say, you know, I needed that because I have had an abortion. Yeah. And they're still scarred from it.
Anthony (Dr.J):Yeah. So that's just an illustration. There are many other subjects on which we can can stand, but you stand on the truth of God and you let God's word speak, and you be the mouthpiece, but speak it in love.
Tom:But love, I mean, that's not a warrior. Warriors don't love.
Anthony (Dr.J):Yeah. They
Tom:do. We just we just fight and destroy and conquer. Right? What are you what
Ray:are you talking about? Because we love. Yeah. Something you bring to heart.
Anthony (Dr.J):Yeah. It's easier Mhmm. To do it that way. Yeah. It's easier to just slash people's
Tom:legs off. Exactly. No. That's good.
Rick:And I think the key to that is, again, whatever you do, you're preaching love. For me, I discovered that and, again, as Anthony said, you just preach the word. You preach the gospel. But sometimes I think preachers will not deal with tough scriptures or texts because they hop around and preach all over the place. I love preaching through a book.
Anthony (Dr.J):That's right.
Rick:Yeah. When you got to it, you had to deal with it. Yep. And you dealt with it in the context of that particular book, whether it's the book of Acts or Romans or wherever you were. And so I found that when I was preached through a book, I would get to the tough scriptures, which was I sidestep them.
Rick:I didn't run around them. I just dealt with them in love and preached the word, and and people responded. And I think the key there, again, still comes back. If you if you will preach the truth in love and they see your heart, they're not gonna call you a wimp. You know?
Rick:They're they're gonna go, wow. I know that was hard to preach on. I know that was tough. No matter what it was, you know, whether it was on homosexuality, whether it was on, you know, sin because of of people having good affairs or whatever it may be. Mhmm.
Rick:You deal with the subject, and but but you also find there is the grace and the love that God says, listen. He will forgive you if you've been there and you've done that, and and you can choose this day that from now on, I'm gonna live this way because I'm gonna live in the power of who he is. I'm not gonna let the world define me because I'm not defined by the world. I'm defined by his love and grace and mercy. And if you do that, hey.
Rick:You will have a holy boldness.
Ray:Mhmm. So let me give you guys a thought here. There was a book many years ago that was written by a guy, and the name of the book was the man that nobody knows. And it may surprise you that the man that nobody knows was Jesus himself. And you think, now wait a minute.
Ray:Everybody knows Jesus. Well, that's true. But most of the time when we think about Jesus, we have this image of him walking around in kind of a translucent dress with some chakra sandals and long hair, and he's kinda has a a a dazed look on his face and angels and doves follow him around, and he's just kinda floating. No. There's another side of Jesus, and there's a there's another side of pastors that we we need to recognize.
Ray:Sometimes pastors are the are the men that nobody knows and that it's he's not just a people pleaser. He's not just a softy. He has a backbone. He's called according to God's purpose for for a reason. And think about Jesus himself.
Ray:You know, Jesus grew up in a carpenter shop. Now, Rick, I'm not talking about a guy who goes down to Lowe's and gets power tools whether they're wireless or with wired. We're talking about a guy who used hand tools and not even the good hand tools like we have today. He he didn't have a craftsman toolbox. And in fact, if you go to the area where he grew up, there weren't a lot of trees, and he was probably more of a stonemason than he was a a wood carpenter type of guy.
Ray:He might have made furniture and everything like that. But let's let's be honest. This he was he was a tough he was he was man's man. Mhmm. You don't walk down a beach and walk up to some burly leather skinned rough and tumble fisherman as a fisherman as a as a carpenter in a dress and say, hey.
Ray:Follow me. And guys get out of their boat and abandon their whole livelihood. There's something there's an charisma. There's a there's a manliness about a masculinity about that. That dude was strong.
Ray:And you don't clear a temple Mhmm. With guards standing around and the guards go, yeah. I think I'm gonna take a break. You gonna handle that guy? I mean, the temple guards didn't now what am I trying to say?
Ray:I'm not saying he was Rambo. But I do think there's this other side of the Lord in our calling that we are called to be strong. And I think the manifesto touches on it in a great way because it talks about, you know, body, mind, and spirit, physically, mentally, and spiritually. And oftentimes, sometimes to a default, even strong followers of Jesus focused just on the spiritual. Mhmm.
Ray:But we need to be thinking about being strong physically. Literally, some of us lives are going to be cut short and our ministries are gonna be cut short because we we aren't exercising. We aren't staying fit. We're not feeding ourselves properly. We've been to one too many potlucks.
Ray:And I'm not trying to meddle. I'm just being honest. I think that there's guys that have had to check out because of type two diabetes and other things because they haven't stayed strong physically. Mhmm. And we owe it to challenge
Anthony (Dr.J):We
Ray:we we owe it to ourselves to try to challenge one another. And I'm, you know, I'm I'm probably more overweight than any of us today. But but then mentally, we have to think about our mental health. More and more, this is becoming a topic that even ministers need to be thinking about. How how are we doing mentally?
Ray:There's a lot of stress and a lot of things that happen as a result. And then spiritually, we have to stay fit spiritually.
Anthony (Dr.J):One of things I think that needs to happen is speaking of the middle side, physical side, I certainly understand. Yeah. You get so busy, get going in the time, and you think, well, I just don't have time for that. And yet, it I'm I'm 76, and I'm in better health today than I've been in years because I take the time Mhmm. To to do the things I need to.
Anthony (Dr.J):But I'm talking about mental. One of the things that I have discovered in my own journey, it's easy to get caught up in getting on your phone and looking at all the apps and looking at all the news and wearing yourself out. I would say that one of the things I think all of us can do, but particularly us in ministry, is to spend less time on the apps and be still. Mhmm. I I I absolutely believe finding things that help your mind to relax and and help you to to find rest is a vital part of being a strong warrior for Christ.
Anthony (Dr.J):That's good. If your mind is loaded with all the garbage of this world and if if you spend all that time looking at the news and listening to the news, your brain is gonna fry. Right, Rick? Fry?
Ray:Yeah. Yeah. Fry. Well, we did a we did a study with Oklahoma Baptist University, and I'm just gonna go there. One of the things that we found, and it this is supported with national surveys, is that pornography is something that guys struggle with in ministry as much as anybody not in ministry.
Ray:So we have to be thinking about how we're feeding ourselves in regard to these these these areas. One line that I love is that, a dairy farmer that I have as a friend and I do some work for, he says this. He this guy, you know, works twelve hour days. He gets up at 05:00, drives thirty minutes into town to go swimming at the local YMCA, drives back to his farm, and then goes works for the day. And this is what he says.
Ray:My physical fitness and you you think of working twelve hours a day would be enough. Right? But he says my physical fitness is a part of my job description. So we we need to work that we need to work that into our job description. Guys, we've we've got a lot of ground to cover and not a lot of time.
Ray:I just wanna touch on another section in the manifesto. It really talks about the purpose of the church. You know? It says the church isn't a museum for saints. It's a community of radically transformed sinners, not a building, not a it's a but a body of believers found in the trenches with the outcast, the broken, the forgotten, and the wounded.
Ray:My biggest fear right now is if Jesus comes back, he won't recognize the church. What is going on? Why are we missing the mark here?
Rick:Well, I I think we're missing the mark. As I said, we I think we got content in winning people to Jesus, baptizing them, and hanging them out to drip dry. Oh. We
Ray:you know, if you
Rick:go back and look in the New Testament, God designed the church, really, and everything's about discipleship. It's equipping the saints to do the work of the ministry, and I think we have failed in doing that. I don't think God ever intended for us to be content with additions but rather with multiplication. Mhmm. And so what we've got now is a church that has never caught vision and never caught the of what God really intended the church to be, and that was to create a world visionary, world impacting disciple who was truly making a difference.
Rick:And had we done that, we'd see more people want to Christ today than we ever did. I would get frustrated. You know? I think through my life of how many times we have come up with something new in evangelism, you know, e evangelism, you know, CWT, you know, who's your all these different things. I thought, man, if we would just do what the Bible said and do it right
Anthony (Dr.J):That's good.
Rick:We would have went we would have won a whole lot more people to Christ. Now I'm I'm not against those things, but my fear is what we did in the church is we would we would take, say, CWT or EE or one of those things, and we would do it, check it off the list, put it back on the shelf. Yeah. So it it just became a program. It never became a part of us.
Rick:So the church, and I'm beginning to see, you know, in some pastors a greater passion toward discipleship. And, you know, see old adage, know, if I would you take a million dollars, or would I if I gave you a penny and doubled it every every day, you know, which one would you take? You better take doubling the penny. And that's that's what we need to be doing in the local church today. And so I think we we have failed not to disciple and equip like we should, and I think that's why a lot of our churches are in the shape that they're in today.
Rick:I think a lot of them have not been willing to change. The thing I love about looking at the gospels is whether it was Paul or Peter or whoever it may be was Paul said, I became all things to all men that I might win some. That was what I call accommodation without compromise. He never compromised the gospel. He never compromised the truth, but he was willing to make the adjustments and changes to reach the people groups that he was with.
Rick:I think sometimes in churches, it's the seven last same day, and we've never done it that way before. Or you will hear people say, Listen to the pastor. I was here before you got here, and I will be here long after you're gone. And so churches have not been willing to change, and I think that's a lot of the frustration that pastors today are feeling is they sense and believe, yeah, God called them. And I I see the direction we need to go, but the but the but the church is just so set in its ways that it's it's not willing to change and make the adjustments to reach their community or their culture where they're today.
Ray:I like to think of it this way. If you're gonna get to Matthew 28 and you're gonna make disciples, then you have to get through Matthew 25. And the the fruit of discipleship, the sign of true discipleship is love. And the best way to demonstrate love is to love your neighbor. And in Matthew 25, the Lord makes it pretty clear.
Ray:When I was sick, when I was hungry, when I was in prison, when I was thirsty, you were there. And there's a group of people say, well, when do we do that? And I'm afraid that that's what's gonna happen with many local churches. They're gonna look at the Lord and pull their pockets out and say, well, yeah, we did this, but the Lord's gonna say, yeah, but when did you do this? Yeah.
Ray:And they said, we didn't do that. He says, exactly. And so that that's my biggest fear is that we were so inward focused. We're not thinking outwardly, and we're not in our communities. We're not here's here's the acid test.
Ray:If your church were to go away tomorrow, if your church were to board up its windows and doors, would anybody notice? And if and if nobody notices, you're not you're not having an impact in your community, and the Lord has a heart for people in and outside the church. And so that's that's my biggest fear.
Rick:Well, Ray, I one of the things I I said to first James when I was there, I said, you know, if First Baptist Church GeneX ceased to exist, would anybody miss us? Yeah. And and to be honest with you, the answer was no. And so what we did, we made a we made a shift. We got involved in our community.
Rick:When Jinx was having anything downtown, I mean, we would we would go down and pick up garbage. You know? I got involved with the school system, and we started loving on our teachers and ministering to them. And Jinx Chamber of Commerce awarded our church. It's the only church it's ever no church ever has is a distinguished community award because they saw our church getting involved in community and just serving in ministry.
Rick:And because of that, though, man, people started coming because they saw a church who was saying, listen. We we value our community, and we wanna be a part of our community so that even when we built our children's wing, we opened it up to the community to have birthday parties and different things like that.
Tom:That's good.
Rick:You know, again, trying to reach out and making an impact in the community.
Ray:That's good.
Tom:I wanna I wanna switch gears for just a moment. We've been talking about the church and that question, but I wanna look at the minister itself. You guys have been in ministry now for fifty plus years. How can we keep ourselves or yeah. How can we keep ourselves as ministers from letting that fire grow out?
Tom:From letting complacency creep in, getting into a rut, getting into a, hey. It's just here's the syllabus. I'm gonna follow it again another year. Here we go. How do we avoid that and keep that fanning the flame as the scripture says?
Tom:How can we do that?
Anthony (Dr.J):I think you have to stay fresh with the Lord. I mean, I don't think it's a complicated answer, actually. Yeah. It's just you stay fresh with the Lord. You stay in tune with him.
Anthony (Dr.J):Now we can go into practical things in regard to reading widely and and constantly. I you know, when I had the opportunity, we would have great pastors come into Falls Creek. I would always get an appointment with them and sit down and talk talk to me about what's going on, what what are the things that you're doing, and try to learn from them. But but I'm just telling you ultimately, you stay fresh by staying fresh with Jesus.
Ray:Mhmm.
Anthony (Dr.J):That's really it.
Tom:Well, if it's Well And I was gonna say that's important because you think about it with any relationship. Right? It's gonna go sour if there's not intentionality, if there's not commitment. I mean, even with your spouse, if there's not intentionality behind it, it can become stale. So valuing that relationship, keeping it fresh, making sure you're on it, that's good.
Ray:Rick, what were you gonna say? Yeah.
Rick:I was just gonna say, to me, it's it's time. You know? It's and it's just like, you know, Tom was saying, the more time you spend with, you know, whether it was Diane and my kids or our friendship with Anthony, it's time. And if you don't spend time with the Lord sitting at his feet, you begin to pull out of a dry well. And you've you've got to you've got to spend that time, one, to know his heart, and and he already knows yours, but to really understand his heart, you gotta set his feet.
Rick:And most of the time, you gotta keep your mouth shut. You gotta listen.
Ray:Yeah. That's good. I I love what I learned from, Alicia Jordan one time. She said, Lord, give me the wisdom and give me the words that remind me that a wise person once said nothing. Yeah.
Ray:And and it's all about listening. That's for sure. Guys, we're almost out of time, but we have time to kinda wrap this up with the last section of the, manifesto, and I'd love to get your input on this. It it kind of ends strong. It says, I'm a minister of the gospel.
Ray:I'm a warrior for God's kingdom. I'm all in, sold out, fully surrendered. This isn't just what I do. It's who I am, and I will press on until I hear, well done, my good and faithful servant to God's glory. I will lead.
Ray:And why why is this such an important part? What what do you have to say about this word of encouragement, this final challenge in the manifesto?
Anthony (Dr.J):I think it is it is inherent in our relationship with Jesus Christ. He calls us to take up our cross every day, to deny ourselves, put ourselves aside, and put him first. And when you do that, you are living life to his glory. And that really is what we all are about. We're we want to live life so that in the end, he gets the glory, and we have the privilege of walking and giving him glory through from our lives.
Anthony (Dr.J):So it is serving him in a way that honors him, that points to him, that helps people to constantly look at Jesus and say, he's the reason. Sorry, but Falls Creek is all always on has always been on my mind. But during the Falls Creek campaign, when we were trying to raise all that money for the tabernacle, we we raised it with the idea of saying, we wanted when we completed this journey, people would look at it and say, look what God has done.
Rick:That's good. Mhmm.
Anthony (Dr.J):I wanna live my life as a minister of the gospel so that one day, who cares if they remember me? I want them to remember my Jesus. Oh.
Ray:Uh-huh.
Tom:Yeah. That's really good.
Ray:Good. Rick?
Rick:Yeah. And and I I'll have to say to you, as I read that, it it really jumped out at me, and I agree with everything with that Anthony said. But I will tell you, at this phase in my life, it's probably more, real, because, you know, I've got less time now than I did earlier as we get older, and you realize you're getting closer to those moments or whatever that, you may go and be bored. And you look back, and so I wish I had the same feeling when I was 18 or 19 because you think you got the whole world in front of you. You got a whole lifetime.
Rick:I wish I I wished I understood that back then like I understand it now. And because I think that, as as Anthony said, it's it's not about, you know, did you pastor a big church, a little church, all of those things. It is I think he said it so well, I want them to know my Jesus, you make him the central thing. And I think as I get as I as I'm you know, as I get older and in a different phase and time in my life and different journey, it's making sure that you get to hear those words, well done.
Ray:You know, it's one thing to be healthy. It's another thing to be strong. And as I hear you guys talking and reflecting on your ministry, you guys remind me of Caleb. You know, he and Joshua, they
Tom:were
Ray:bold and they were courageous. Yep. And they led the way. But here here was Caleb. I think he was in his eighties.
Ray:I think he was in his eighties. And he he goes to Moses and he says, look, man. I'm as strong and I'm as courageous as I ever was. Yep. I want my piece of the pie.
Ray:Yeah. I'm send me in. Let's go. Let's roll. And you guys aren't retired.
Ray:You're retreading. God continues to use you. And I think that at the heart of the ministers manifesto is, man, guys, ministers, hang in there. Stick with it. We're in this together.
Ray:We wanna encourage you. We wanna hold you accountable. You're not alone. You it's more than just you being healthy. You can be strong.
Ray:You can be courageous as God created you, as as he's called you to live out your life in your local church. But, man, we wanna encourage you. We wanna know that we're here for you. And we just wanna remind you that the winning ministry broadcast is brought to you by edify leaders. Edify leaders provides donor funded coaching to pastors and ministers all around the world literally and is devoted to encouraging them to reach their full potential in life in ministry.
Ray:And if that's you if that's you, we want you to know that we'd love to hear from you. And, if you wanna learn more about us, head on over to edifyleaders.org, and we will certainly respond. Tom, what did you wanna say?
Tom:Well, I just wanted to say this as well. That minister's manifesto was meant to be shared and distributed and given to all pastors, ministers around the world. And so if you could, please go online. Go to edifyleaders.org, like I said, or it's in the show notes. But click that, download it, save it, and share it with those that you know.
Tom:It's not meant to be kept a secret. We want the world to know. We want the pastors around the world to know hold on to it and keep it in front of you so that they can guide us. So we're not just barely making it or surviving, but we can thrive as ministers who God has called us to be.
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