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Honest conversations with working mothers about how they really "do it all"
Join us on Substack - https://substack.com/@leaningmyway
[00:00:01] Mikenzie: Hello everyone, and welcome to Leaning My Way, a show where I have honest conversations with working mothers about how they really do it all.
[00:00:10] Mikenzie: Today I'm joined by Camilla Cater, and her story is such a powerful example of how career and family can grow together. Camilla is currently an executive at Deliveroo ,, but she joined the company a decade ago as a head of UK operations when it was still a scrappy startup.
[00:00:25] Mikenzie: Think interviews at the pub level startup. And since then, she's been promoted seven times, including twice while on maternity leave. She's now on her third mat leave and returning to a whole new chapter as Deliveroo is likely getting acquired by DoorDash. Camilla's trajectory might look seamless from the outside, but it hasn't been straightforward.
[00:00:45] Mikenzie: When she decided to start a family, she learned she needed to do IVF. True to form. She approached this challenge with operational prowess, managing hormone treatments, and daily appointments before and between work meetings. Her way of coping. Through this incredibly emotional time, she worked harder and told no one.
[00:01:05] Mikenzie: This part of the conversation really stayed with me. I've always believed women should be able to talk openly about fertility at work, and if they can't, well, it's a flaw of the work environment. But Camilla offered a different take, both as a manager and someone who's gone through these experiences, that, just because something feels right for you doesn't mean it's right for someone else.
[00:01:25] Mikenzie: And the real goal is to be perceptive and create space for women to choose how they wanna approach these things. As a former manager, that perspective really struck a chord with me and people on her team are so lucky. In this episode, we talk about Camilla's returns to work after mat leave.
[00:01:42] Mikenzie: The tension of switching between her identities as a leader and a mother, And how she's built systems to make it all work without pretending she has it all figured out. Camilla is proof that you don't need to choose between ambition and motherhood in the corporate world, but you do have to get clear on your boundaries and give yourself some grace along the way.
[00:02:01] Mikenzie: I learned so much from my conversation with Camilla and can't wait for you all to hear it, so let's get into it. Here's my conversation with Camilla Cater.
[00:02:10] Mikenzie: Hello, Camilla. Good to see you.
[00:02:13] Camilla: Great to see you.
[00:02:15] Mikenzie: How was your morning? I know you're on your third maternity leave, so it's probably like afternoon for you at 9:00 AM
[00:02:21] Camilla: I have been up for a few hours indeed. we just got back from holiday, which was, amazing, but it's always a bit of a scramble getting everybody back into the routine of school and that kind of thing.
[00:02:31] Mikenzie: Well, thank you for making the time in such a hectic morning.
[00:02:36] Camilla: Thank you for having me.
[00:02:37] Mikenzie: so I actually wanted to start, with your role at Deliveroo. 'cause I think actually your work side could be a whole podcast in and of itself. You've been at Deliveroo for nearly 10 years. And have really grown with the company, from its startup age into now this public company that is likely to get acquired and have been promoted like seven times since joining.
[00:03:04] Mikenzie: And I wanted to hear, going back, 10 years ago, what were you thinking when you joined Deliveroo? Did you have a career vision for yourself at that time, and know how Deliveroo would fit into that?
[00:03:17] Camilla: Sure answer is no. I had no vision whatsoever. I had just finished my, MBA or was finishing up my MBA, and I'd been sponsored by McKinsey to do the MBA. So the plan was very much to go back. but during the course, I just ended up speaking to so many people who were doing. Really cool and different jobs that, I figured I wanted to go try something else before going back to McKinsey.
[00:03:42] Camilla: And so I negotiated with them that I would do, what they described as a year in industry. and I was super lucky to be headhunted for kind of my dream role at Deliveroo because they were looking for someone who had what they called a professional services background. so consulting kind of fit the bill had the business analyst toolkit to come in and look at, the operations function.
[00:04:09] Camilla: So everything to do with riders and logistics and deliveries and work out how we could professionalize and scale it. because we had a phenomenal team who were running operations day to day, but it was hardcore, like the business was growing so fast and it was kind of held together with sticky tape.
[00:04:31] Camilla: so the job was really to come in and work out how we were gonna be able to, I guess, fix it so that it could, grow as fast as we needed it to. And that was the dream role. But I thought it was gonna be for a year. and obviously it turned out to be 10 and counting.
[00:04:48] Mikenzie: Wow. Okay. And how many people were at Deliveroo when you joined? Was it really a startup or was it more of a scale up at that point?
[00:04:56] Camilla: definitely felt like a startup. We had just launched the international market, so the countries outside the uk. and in terms of the vibe, it was incredibly startup-y not least 'cause we had no space in the office. so people were practically sitting on each other's laps. interviews at the time quite often happened at the pub, which also felt quite startup-y.
[00:05:19] Camilla: so that was definitely the startup vibe. but also the kind of scale up element, just because we were growing so fast, we were kind of beyond the point of proving that there was appetite for this on all sides of the marketplace. and well into holy moony, how are we gonna keep up with the rate of growth here?
[00:05:40] Camilla: and that's why it was so much fun being in operations because. Effectively, we could very easily become the bottleneck. and so it was a constant scramble to try and stay ahead of the curve effectively.
[00:05:53] Mikenzie: Yeah, especially because Deliveroo is a logistics app at its core. You know, you both have the operations of building, running the software, building, running the team, and then you have the physical operations of getting the riders to, their deliveries
[00:06:10] Camilla: Yeah, exactly.
[00:06:11] Mikenzie: So it must have been madness.
[00:06:13] Camilla: But that's why it's so much fun because it's at the intersection of the kind of digital and the real world. and there are very sophisticated algorithms, but there are also lots of humans in the loop. and that's what I think makes it such a fun and challenging place to work. the other thing that people don't always think about is it's also very seasonal.
[00:06:33] Camilla: So you have a business that's growing incredibly fast overall, but you also have this insane uptick in demand around September time. and so that just put huge strain on the system, literally our kind of IT infrastructure, if you like, as well as our ability to get enough riders out on the road.
[00:06:54] Camilla: so presented a lot of challenges, but that also led to lots of creativity and innovation and basically kept us on our toes.
[00:07:03] Mikenzie: So my next question was gonna be what kept you there for so long? Is it just these really interesting operational challenges?
[00:07:12] Camilla: Yeah. I would say just challenges more broadly. certainly the operational ones, definitely the fact that it's this intersection between, online and offline. and then I think beyond the intellectual side of it, well, I say intellectual, but I think the fun thing is that some of the problems are very intellectual or cerebral and some of them are just practical.
[00:07:34] Camilla: and I really enjoy that combination. But beyond that, definitely the thing that's kept me there is, my colleagues, just the caliber of people that I get to work with both, again, intellectually, but also just Morally. I think they are good, fun people to work with.
[00:07:55] Mikenzie: you got promoted in both of your previous maternity leave, so have been able to really work your way up at the company and build a family. and I wanted to talk about your reflection on how you think you were able to both grow within the company and start and build your family at Deliveroo.
[00:08:20] Camilla: I actually think that a part of it is the fact that, I have been there for a long time in the sense that, before. when I left to go on maternity leave, I was leaving with a track record, if you like, or an accumulation of brownie points. and I think that makes a really big difference.
[00:08:40] Camilla: One, because when it comes to, well, delivery is a business that changes very fast. So when it comes to returning from maternity leave, especially at more senior levels, it's likely that the role has shifted slightly in the time that you've been out. And so having people who really know you, understand, you know, what your strengths are, and want to bring you back into a great role is super valuable and important.
[00:09:07] Camilla: And I think. That's compounded by the fact that knowing that you are trusted gives you confidence, or gave me confidence. And so there was this kind of positively reinforcing cycle of feeling trusted. Therefore having confidence, therefore doing a better job than I would've done otherwise.
[00:09:27] Camilla: Therefore, gaining more trust. and I think that's been really key to being able to both grow professionally whilst also starting a family.
[00:09:38] Mikenzie: At kind of a high level, obviously working hard helps foster that trust, but do you think there's anything in the way that you have and do work at Deliveroo and,manage your teams and, also manage up, I guess that really fosters that level of trust.
[00:09:58] Camilla: I What I hear from, will my boss, who's also the founder of Deliveroo, is that one of the things that he really values is that I put Deliveroo first. And I think that that honestly comes from the fact that I've been there for so long that, it actually kind of feels like Deliveroo was my first baby.
[00:10:17] Camilla: So I, I don't find it difficult to put the company first. what he means by that, by the way, is that there have been times where I've suggested making changes, for example, that, you know, objectively disadvantaged me, but felt like the right thing for the company in terms of changing organizational structures or that kind of thing.
[00:10:40] Camilla: but I don't think that's any kind of credit to me. I think it's just the fact that, I feel very protective of, almost like my first baby.
[00:10:51] Mikenzie: It's really interesting because I think conceptually, it's like, oh yeah, you know, you work at a company for a long time, you garner trust, but. I think it's much harder to put into practice and I think it's a mix of things, right? Like you're a team and Will seems like an amazing founder and boss that really cares about his people in a way.
[00:11:13] Mikenzie: It sounds like in, in a minute we'll go into the first pregnancy, but like, the company growing almost created new roles as well rather than keeping existing ones because obviously then someone will have to go in for the maternity leave replacement and that role might not be there when you get back.
[00:11:31] Mikenzie: So almost the growth also created more space for more roles. but I mean it's obviously you as well in terms of your skill and your work ethic and I love that just kind of putting the company first and showing, yeah, I'm not just out for myself in this way.
[00:11:50] Camilla: as I think about it, another aspect of having been around, a long time is that I have worked with a lot of people, and there are people who I think are absolutely brilliant and who have been really fortunate to persuade to join me when I've moved roles and moved organizations or needed to turn around a particular area of the business or whatever it was.
[00:12:15] Camilla: And so that's been another huge asset, is knowing who these superstars are, or at least some of them, and being able to bring them with me. that's been invaluable, as I've taken on new roles in, you know, areas that I didn't know or areas that were, struggling.
[00:12:34] Mikenzie: Yeah. And then going into your first pregnancy, I guess, to make it more concrete into these transition periods, what stage was Deliveroo at when you first started to decide to try and have a kid?
[00:12:49] Camilla: we were growing like crazy. it was pre COVID and pre our IPO, but we were growing. I mean, it was wild and we were desperately trying to keep up, as I mentioned. so it was very hectic. Also a lot of fun. The, I guess, complication for me, from a kind of personal perspective was that I had to have fertility treatment.
[00:13:16] Camilla: I had to have IVF to, get pregnant with my first son call, and that was. it's a very difficult thing, or at least I found it very difficult. but practically it also presents some real challenges. or at least for me it did for the simple reason that I didn't want people to know that I was having fertility treatment.
[00:13:41] Camilla: I think one, again, it goes back to that emotional thing. somehow, at least for me, the whole process felt, quite ridden with this feeling or fear of failure. And so I really didn't want to have to go into, yes, I'm having this, but it's not working, or kind of go into, I guess in a way kind of reliving any of those failures, especially with people that didn't know particularly well or at least didn't know outside of professional context.
[00:14:10] Camilla: And then I just had a fear that I would be caught in this kind of, I dunno if it's the right term, but double jeopardy where. I wasn't getting pregnant, but somehow everybody thought that I was gonna be out soon and that I was gonna get somehow penalized for that. So for me, there was a very practical consideration around how do I make it to all of these medical appointments?
[00:14:32] Camilla: 'cause at various stages, they were daily medical appointments without people knowing. and so I was very lucky that the clinic that I was going to, had very early morning appointments. So I think there were seven or 7:30 AM appointments and they're quick, quick. So I could go to my appointment and then make it into the office without anyone knowing, which was great.
[00:14:54] Camilla: But I, I think it's an aspect of, fertility treatment that people don't necessarily think about as the kind of practical challenges, of Going through the treatment. Also, frankly, the hormonal battering that you take, without anybody finding out or without anybody at work, finding out, I don't know if people would've treated me differently had they known, but that was certainly my fear and so I put quite a lot of energy into making sure that they didn't know.
[00:15:23] Mikenzie: You had said to me that, if they knew you were doing IVF and thought maybe you were pregnant, that they would think you were quote unquote leaning out. Do you feel during that time you were leaning out at all?
[00:15:38] Camilla: No, I felt that I was, extra leaning in, because it was just from a business perspective, we were growing so fast. it was all hands on deck. Basically 24 7. And I think even for me personally, because of this fear that I wouldn't get pregnant or that it would, you know, take even longer, whatever it was, I think I almost doubled down on work kind of saying, well, at least if the fertility side of things isn't going well, I have work to lean on.
[00:16:18] Camilla: so I actually think I extra Lenin rather than leaning out. but it was pretty tiring as a consequence because, the fertility treatment is physically and emotionally quite tiring. And then. work was very intense, but net net I think that I've always found that in spite of my job being very intense and demanding and taking a lot of energy, it's always given me a lot of energy.
[00:16:48] Camilla: And so I think on balance, it was the right thing for me to lean in and work extra hard in that period because it took my mind off the fertility treatment. And I would otherwise think I would've driven myself crazy if I'm honest.
[00:17:02] Mikenzie: Yeah. I guess if you have too much time to think and feel everything that's happening, it's nice to have a place that you can go and be like, okay, no one knows about this here. You know, I'm badass, Camilla. I'm working, building this company, and
[00:17:19] Camilla: And to be honest, I found that with pregnancy as well. I completely understand that lots of women want to stop before the end of their pregnancy and kind of enjoy. That time, I don't, I've worked until the end through all of my pregnancies because for me, I, I just find it great to be distracted and I know that otherwise I'd be you know, worrying about is the baby moving enough?
[00:17:43] Camilla: am I this, am I that? whereas if, you're super busy with work, you don't have time to worry. and so for me, I found that at the times where I've been under the most stress personally, or the most strained personally, actually leaning into work has been a salvation rather than an extra burden.
[00:18:04] Mikenzie: It's not the first time I've heard it, so it's very interesting what I hear multiple times is both, I don't wanna tell people because if they knew, they would think that I was leaning out. And actually I was working harder than I ever have. Using it as a little bit of a distraction, as a thing to just keep my life on track.
[00:18:24] Mikenzie: So, it's a very common experience from what I've heard.
[00:18:29] Camilla: I think it's definitely that it's the distraction and keeping my life on track. I think it's also identity. I think if, you know, when you are trying to get pregnant or you are pregnant, that there's almost a shift in your identity as you are trying to become a mother or as you become a mother.
[00:18:45] Camilla: And I've found it useful to have as an anchor my professional self knowing that I have that identity, that is constant throughout. A useful anchor for me whilst there's the change in the other aspects of my life and my identity
[00:19:02] Mikenzie: That's really And so work was almost support for you, but obviously it's a very emotional time to be going through fertility treatment and working like crazy. Did you have any particular support systems or even just maybe daily activities, rituals that you did to help kind of keep yourself grounded, help your mental health during that time?
[00:19:28] Camilla: throughout, all my time at Deliveroo. and through fertility treatment and the pregnancies, what's been key to me is to get. Maybe 45 minutes of exercise, a day. I, and I've actually found it even more important as a parent where it's extremely intense to be in full kind of mothering mode until the moment you step out of the door to go to work than be fully in, you know, professional Camilla mode.
[00:20:02] Camilla: Right. Until, you know, I'm still doing emails on the tube as I walk back home from the tube station. I'm amazed I haven't walked into a lamppost, to be honest. And then at the minute that you put the key in the door, you have to flip back to mother mode, at a time of day where, you know, you have children who are kind of tired and you have to do bath time and dinner time and this kind of thing.
[00:20:23] Camilla: And so I have found it invaluable to get 45 minutes of exercise either once the children are in bed or before they wake up in the morning. That feels to me like the way to say, okay. There have been at least 45 minutes a day that have been just about me. And I think at the beginning I felt a bit guilty about doing that because that was 45 minutes that I could have been doing something else.
[00:20:49] Camilla: I could have been working, or I could been sorting out life admin or whatever. But then I came to the realization that it isn't actually just a selfish thing. It's genuinely in the best interest of my family for me to take that time and also in the best interest of my employer because that is how I relain a kind of functioning individual.
[00:21:12] Camilla: and I think reframing it in that way has really allowed me to always prioritize it.
[00:21:20] Mikenzie: it's funny because I think exercise is like, the only time that mothers seem to have to themselves is if they're pushing their bodies in some other way.
[00:21:30] Camilla: But I think that's also a part of it. I think there's a feeling of, you know, your body changes a lot when you are, you go through pregnancy, et cetera. And so it's not a coincidence. I don't think that, it's also kind of taking back control of your body.
[00:21:45] Camilla: and then the fact that it's quite hard if you're pushing yourself physically to be worrying about, you know, either the work email that you have to send or the night costume that your son needs to go to school in tomorrow or whatever it is. and so that combination of it being something that you are doing for yourself and to kind of.
[00:22:07] Camilla: Take back control, as it were of yourself and your life. and the fact that it means that you can't be thinking about the 10,000 other demands on your time, makes it the perfect way to efficientlyrecover.
[00:22:23] Mikenzie: And on that kind of your body changing, you spoke a little bit about the hormones, especially when you're going through IVF, but also through pregnancy. can you talk a little bit about any of the impacts on your body or your, Mental health, cognitive load in some of those hormonal changes and how you manage that for yourself.
[00:22:45] Camilla: Yes. Although I would say that this is kind of part of the reason that I think I've been so lucky to have a super engaging and demanding job throughout is that. You know, you don't have time to kind of navel gaze and worry too much about it, which I think is a huge advantage. I think the times where I've struggled most, have been when things have been quieter at work.
[00:23:11] Camilla: or honestly, on holiday it sounds very weird, but when I've been less busy, those are the times when, you know, I've been able to think about it, and I personally think that for me, that's very difficult. I would much rather just get on with it. so I think I haven't noticed them nearly as much as I would've done otherwise.
[00:23:33] Camilla: Thanks to being initially distracted by work and laterally distracted by work and other kids, as it were.
[00:23:41] Mikenzie: that's interesting because, I mean, not the same, but I did egg freezing and I was very surprised on the impact of my body and my emotions that I didn't feel like I could control them to the same degree as when I'm not on hormones. So I was so tired, and I also was working and was so busy at work, and so in a way I could manage it, like I could switch it off, but also, I.
[00:24:10] Mikenzie: I was really surprised and kind of scared by the toll it took on my body of just two weeks of doing that, and I was kinda like, why didn't anyone tell me that this was the case? And then talking to my friends who'd done egg freezing after, they were like, yeah, I felt similar. And I think everyone has different experiences to it of
[00:24:28] Camilla: But I think that's one of the
[00:24:29] Mikenzie: toll.
[00:24:30] Camilla: great kind of positives of having been through the fertility treatment and then A pregnancy, I've been super lucky that they've all been, you know, very smooth or mostly smooth. is that it just gives you a level of empathy for what people are going through and a realization that there can be a lot hidden under the surface.
[00:24:54] Camilla: And so I think I now, when I see someone who doesn't seem to be quite themselves or behaving in quite the way they normally would or performing quite to the level that they usually would, I think I more easily kind of imagine or give people the benefit of the doubt.
[00:25:14] Camilla: and I think that then changes the way that you approach conversation with that person. Which I think is ultimately super beneficial. it makes you more open to understanding why someone is behaving in the way they are rather than assuming that they're just checked out or whatever it might be.
[00:25:36] Mikenzie: Yeah. Yeah. And I just think it's interesting that. I guess I wonder if work was all women who've gone through similar experiences, how much of the pregnancy and things people would still want to keep hidden versus it being like, well, you know, a lot of my peers are men and they just won't fundamentally understand that.
[00:26:02] Mikenzie: I don't know that that's true at all, but sometimes I wonder about that.
[00:26:06] Camilla: I think it, yeah, I think it's an interesting question. I guess I quite like that there's, a way, the fact that not everyone understands it. It kind of forces you to get on with it. and I find that helpful, but I think what's really important is to realize that one, people's experiences vary wildly.
[00:26:30] Camilla: You can have completely different pregnancies from one woman to another, but even a woman can have completely different pregnancies in the like, facts of the experience. And then how people experience different facts is also incredibly different based on their support network, everything else going on in their lives, et cetera.
[00:26:51] Camilla: And so I think what's really, really key is to realize that people's experiences and the ways that they want and need to be supported vary wildly and to be open to that. I think for me it was, it was kind of a. I mean, it sounds so obvious, but there was kind of an aha moment of, okay, I'm motivated in certain ways, but other people are motivated completely differently or need different things from their work.
[00:27:22] Camilla: And I just think that's so key. I think a very basic example, but I don't actually respond particularly well to being given a tight deadline and a ridiculous goal that is almost impossible to achieve because I'm the kind of person who, you know, I needed to do my homework before I could go out and have fun basically.
[00:27:45] Camilla: So I don't need to be motivated by someone giving me goals and deadlines, but actually I've managed people who do so much better if you give them that ridiculous goal and really tight deadline. And one of the great things of going through pregnancy and parenting is the realization that at different life stages, at different times and different contexts and also different people are just motivated by completely different things.
[00:28:13] Camilla: And youas a manager, and leader, need to be able to adapt to that and to be really kind of BDI and really looking out for it, so that you can get the most outta people and allow them to really thrive.
[00:28:28] Mikenzie: I can tell you're a good manager because even just reflecting on that, proactively thinking about, oh, this is the way I like to work. But that's not necessarily the way other people like to work. These are not necessarily the ways that people experience the same things in being very astute to that.
[00:28:44] Camilla: It's hard. It's hard to realize that these are assumptions that you hold that don't always apply.
[00:28:52] Mikenzie: So let's go on to your first maternity leave. so eventually you do get pregnant, and I want to hear a little bit about that transition into being a mother, especially as someone who seems to have work as a major. Outlet for you to not have that. and also becoming a mother, how was that for you?
[00:29:19] Camilla: It was amazing, is the, the punchline. lots of people said to me, her, you're a total workaholic. Two days into your maternity leave, you'll be back, you'll be checking your emails every two minutes, et cetera. None of that. I took, about eight months off and I loved every minute of it. I was not bored at any point.
[00:29:41] Camilla: I thought that, you know, every gurgle of my baby was absolutely fascinating. I can't explain it if I try and look back and dissect, what was I doing and how was I kept motivated and energized and all of that. I can't explain it in rational terms. I think it's just that emotionally. You're just in a different place. And so I also wasn't at the end of the eight months desperate to go back to work yet. I was super happy. Once I did go back, I did initially try going back, I think it was three days a week. my thinking was I'll go back three days a week for a couple of weeks, then four days a week, and then go back to five, or even a slightly slower ramp up and realize that just was not going to work.
[00:30:35] Camilla: because effectively I was trying to do five days work in three days without having any childcare on the other two days. And so I quickly canned that and went back to being five days a week. but actually it wasn't really the shock to the system that I thought it would be. My son adapted super quickly.
[00:30:55] Camilla: I've always found that. the children adapt far faster than I ever thought they would, and also faster than most adults. but also I found that I was able to adapt pretty quickly. 'cause it basically felt like when you go on holiday, I often find that you know, the day before you go back, you're thinking, oh God, the holiday's over, back to reality.
[00:31:17] Camilla: This is gonna be brutal. And then basically after three hours in the office, you've kind of forgotten you were ever on holiday. You're back into the swing of things. It's actually quite fun. it just kind of grabs you. and so I didn't think it was nearly as traumatic as I had expected.
[00:31:34] Mikenzie: And you came back to a new role. you got promoted on this maternity leave, right?
[00:31:39] Camilla: I did. Yeah. that was interesting because it was COVID. so I had my first son. Right at the start of COVID and at literally beginning of March, 2020. And then I had my second son as we were kind of exiting, COVID, so in May, 2021. And that was the interesting part. So I found out that I was pregnant with my second son on the Saturday before going back to work on the Monday,
[00:32:13] Mikenzie: Crazy.
[00:32:14] Camilla: led to a pretty awkward conversation with my boss, who was incredibly understanding.
[00:32:20] Camilla: but I was petrified basically. 'cause I thought I'm going into this new role where I'm setting up a new org effectively, a few new teams and I'm only gonna be around for seven, eight months. This is gonna be a total mess. But actually it worked out really well because. It was almost a kind of finite setup period, and it gave me a very clear objective of, this organization needs to be up and running and functional for me to hand over to somebody by the time that I leave on maternity leave.
[00:32:56] Camilla: And so it was very motivating and it acted like one of those, you know, tight deadlines that I said I hate. but it was really effective in focusing me on thinking, okay, like what are the absolute priorities that I need to have in place by the time I leave? So, yeah, I, I was very worried about it when I had to tell my boss and worried about what it would mean about my success in this new role.
[00:33:22] Camilla: But it turned out to be, a blessing in disguise, I guess.
[00:33:26] Mikenzie: it's very interesting that you got pregnant naturally right away after going through fertility treatment for your first,
[00:33:34] Camilla: Yes,
[00:33:34] Mikenzie: I'm sure that was an added surprise.
[00:33:37] Camilla: that could happen. and
[00:33:38] Camilla: I thought, hmm,
[00:33:40] Camilla: apparently it's quite
[00:33:41] Mikenzie: but, okay.
[00:33:42] Camilla: Apparently it's quite common. I also know, so my sister's adopted and I've heard quite a lot that, it also happens with adoption that people try to conceive naturally for years. eventually adopt and then following adoption, fall pregnant.
[00:33:59] Camilla: So I think it's kind of easier to understand in the case of someone who's been through IVF and had a baby. 'cause you can think, okay, well it's kind of reset the hormonal cycle or whatever it is. But it's interesting that it happens in the case of adoption as well, because it shows that there's something.
[00:34:15] Camilla: Beyond the physiological, something psychological, that is at play as well, whatever it is. I was very lucky to get pregnant naturally. The second time, I'm not sure I would've planned to have, them so close together, but I was absolutely thrilled not to have to go through IVFA second time.
[00:34:31] Mikenzie: because did you think originally when we're ready, if we wanna second, I'll have to probably do IVF again?
[00:34:39] Camilla: Yes, very much so. I come from a family where there are a lot of, fertility issues and so a lot of children in the family are the result of either IVF or adoption. And so I fully expected that, you know, we would have to go down one of those routes, for a first or a second child. So yeah, it was a very happy surprise, to be pregnant.
[00:35:04] Camilla: I did have a moment of. I guess sorrow for want of a better term. When I realized that my first reaction was just elation at finding out that I was pregnant, and then my immediate next reaction was, oh God, I'm gonna have to tell my boss. And that, that was a, it was a sad realization that, that elation was almost immediately replaced by fear.
[00:35:32] Camilla: it turns out that that fear was unfounded. and the news was met with only joy and support. And so I think it's maybe a reflection of, well, the reality that, you know, women do face kind of discrimination in certain cases. But I think also for me, it was a realization that sometimes. it's the assumption of the reaction is more damaging than the reaction itself. 'cause had I known earlier, I might have turned down the new role on the basis that I was pregnant. And that would've been a huge mistake. So it's made me realize that you shouldn't assume anything basically. and just go with it. Lean in, try it out. I think that actually has been one of the biggest learnings was why quit now? Or why lean out now? Rather than in anticipation of it being too difficult or unmanageable or whatever it is, rather than give it a go.
[00:36:43] Camilla: And if really it's unsustainable, then you can change something down the line.
[00:36:47] Mikenzie: Yeah. And I mean, in Shel Sandberg's book, she talks about that, right? Like how women lean out before they even have kids, or while they're pregnant in anticipation of what they think. will be too much. and I feel like it's the case for everything, right? Like I'm a worrier and so usually my worries are way worse than what the reality actually is.
[00:37:09] Mikenzie: And then I feel quite silly after. So
[00:37:13] Camilla: a hundred percent. I'm the same.
[00:37:15] Mikenzie: Yeah. Yeah. And so when did you tell your boss, was it right away when you got back because you were taking on this new role, or did you wait a while?
[00:37:24] Camilla: Yes. I told her right away. but we didn't tell anybody else for a very long time, because it was COVID. We were working remotely and we didn't wanna tell the team. That I was going to be leaving, especially 'cause it was a new team until we knew what the setup would be whilst I was out. And that took a very long time to finalize effectively.
[00:37:51] Camilla: So I was starting like eight months pregnant when one day on one of the Google Hangouts I got up and turned around profile and showed people my giant bump. so I have some news, I'm gonna be out in a few weeks. But you know, that was obviously a very weird C situation that could never have arisen otherwise.
[00:38:15] Camilla: I actually thought that, again, that was kind of an advantage in a way because, for my team, things were normal until. I could tell them, you know, this is a change. I'm gonna be out in a few weeks. This is who you're gonna be reporting to. It's all sorted. And you don't have that quite long period where people are thinking, okay, in eight months you're gonna be out in seven months, you're gonna be out.
[00:38:41] Camilla: In six months, you're gonna be out. You don't have that long kind of countdown. So I think for me, and actually for the team, it was no bad thing that it was only very late in the day that, my second pregnancy was revealed as it were.
[00:38:56] Mikenzie: It's kind of the worry and anticipation of, right. Like if they knew you are pregnant, they would be worried as they were
[00:39:04] Camilla: exactly, exactly.
[00:39:05] Mikenzie: Yeah. And so then for your second, did you take the same amount of maternity leave?
[00:39:11] Camilla: Yeah. About the same amount. which I found to be great, because. the beginning period is honestly a blur. it's just, I dunno, you're in a weird world of sleep deprivation and I guess hormones as well. and then I think that around kind of six months it gets really fun. so, or at least it's a different type of fun.
[00:39:36] Camilla: It's less of the kind of newborn bubble and more, you know, I'm engaging with a real human and I see them growing before my eyes. So I found that, for me it's a sweet spot where I feel that I've been able to be there for them when they most needed me when they were tiny, but also I get the fun part of seeing them kind of come into their own as real little humans.
[00:40:05] Camilla: And it feels to me as though at that age, that kind of a level of independence where. I feel more comfortable leaving them in, you know, daycare all day or with a nanny or whatever it is. so for me it's felt like the sweet spot.
[00:40:23] Mikenzie: I wanna get into the practicalities in a minute, but so sounds like good second mat leave. How is your return? Your return from mat leave with two kids and I believe you were promoted again.
[00:40:35] Camilla: Yes, I took on a very different remit, which was super exciting. Also quite challenging because it meant getting up to speed on an entirely new area again, it was very busy. I do think two is trickier than one, especially 'cause they're quite close together. So it was having two very young children, at home is certainly tricky.
[00:41:00] Camilla: But ultimately I think the challenges are. Kind of the same whether you have one or three or more. for me, the tricky part is really that switch of the moment that you step outta the door or in the door and you have to completely change your approach from, you know, I am decisive, I am focused, I'm efficiency driven, et cetera, to, I am nurturing and I am negotiating.
[00:41:38] Camilla: And I mean, you do some of that at work, but I do way more at home. and so I find that switch difficult. and the other part that I find very hard is the feeling that so many people need you because the truth is at home, you're definitely needed as a mother. In all sorts of practical and emotional ways.
[00:42:00] Camilla: But actually at work you also are, again, in all sorts of kind of practical but also emotional ways. And that can feel very draining, as in, there are certainly days where I think, oh, why does everybody need stuff from me? And frankly, sometimes I do get the reaction of like, why is nobody helping me? but I think the flip side is there's something amazing about feeling, well, frankly, about feeling needed, about feeling that you can help.
[00:42:36] Camilla: and that's true both at home and at work. So I think the gratification that I get as a parent, I also get as a manager, and It's again, an example where it takes a huge amount of energy, but it also gives you a lot of energy.
[00:42:54] Camilla: And so let's get into how you make it all work. So I'm curious about the rule divide with you and your husband. does he also have a big career? And how do you guys split the childcare duties at home? So he started his own business when our first son was born, so
[00:43:14] Mikenzie: Ooh, that's an interesting timing.
[00:43:17] Camilla: that's interesting timing, as you say. but he absolutely adores his job. It is more flexible in some ways. So he can never be off, obviously 'cause it's his business, but he has more flexibility around when he does things. or he's also fully remote.
[00:43:37] Camilla: So he has more flexibility about where he is. and that's been incredibly valuable. He also works from home, so the poor guy is the one who deals with the plumber when something is broken. Or the thousand Amazon deliveries that we seem to get a day. And I think it's easy to underestimate the cumulative value of dealing with all of those little things in a day, which I hate disruptions in my day when I'm focused and working.
[00:44:08] Camilla: I do not want any other distractions. and Andy, my husband, does a phenomenal job of juggling. A million little things alongside his business, which is invaluable for me,
[00:44:21] Camilla: so that's been a great help to me and I think also works quite well for Andy because he is less bothered by doing all of those things at once. and on the flip side, I do most of the I guess, thinking and planning for the family as it were. so I'm the one who will, you know, be like, oh, it's change of season.
[00:44:47] Camilla: The kids are gonna need warm clothes. We better need go buy some or packing for the holidays, or Oh, we need to book car seats for the rental car, and that kind of thing. So I think we have a good kind of divide where I do a lot of the Worrying and planning effectively. And he does loads of the practical stuff.
[00:45:06] Camilla: and that works pretty well for us. I still think it's the case that I am the primary caregiver, parent, whatever you wanna call it. but Andy is absolutely brilliant, as a dad and as a husband at basically picking up anything I ask him for. So 3:00 AM I'll wallop him and say, Hey, the baby is crying.
[00:45:32] Camilla: Can you go, this happened last night. And he, will gladly go do that. So I'm very lucky in that regard.
[00:45:39] Mikenzie: It's interesting you say that you like to be fully focused on work when you're at work and then you know, fully present with the kids. 'causeone of the things I was thinking about is your first maternity leave and return to maternity leave was COVID. So you're working from home. Which probably has its advantages in terms of, flexibility there, but did you actually enjoy going back to work with your kids there?
[00:46:03] Mikenzie: So you have that clear separation.
[00:46:06] Camilla: I do enjoy going to the office. when we had one child it was kind of okay. I think when you have multiple there's just too much like noise and activity and I just prefer to have that demarcation. It's very helpful for me to be able to work one day a week or to have the flexibility actually to, if at short notice, I.
[00:46:30] Mikenzie: Hmm.
[00:46:31] Camilla: I'm going to need to be home a bit earlier because I dunno, a nanny is sick or something. It's invaluable that I have the flexibility to do that. But on balance, I prefer being in the office.
[00:46:43] Mikenzie: Yeah.And so it sounds like you have a nanny. Do kids go to daycare during the day?
[00:46:48] Camilla: it's all a bit of a mix. We have a part-time nanny and they go to nursery or school, depending on the age. I think one of the best things that I did when I went back for my first maternity leave was that, Carl, our oldest son, was at nursery and the nursery closed at six and it was on the kind of tube journey back from work.
[00:47:17] Camilla: and actually both sons went there. That meant that I had to leave the office at 5 25 to be at outside the nursery at six and there was no backup. There's not somebody else who could go and get them because it's far from our house, et cetera. And so that was a fantastic forcing mechanism. I know that if I had had more flex, if I had had a nanny who I could ask to stay a bit longer, or a nanny who finished a bit later, I would never have left the office at the time that I had set myself.
[00:47:49] Camilla: The fact that there was that hard cutoff was invaluable in establishing the boundary and really helped me to then establish other boundaries. So I, you know, turned off my notifications for the time that I was doing, dinner and bath time, and for me at least, it's been really important to create those forcing mechanisms, to.
[00:48:16] Camilla: solidify the boundaries, which otherwise would get blurred and pushed.
[00:48:22] Mikenzie: Do you ever get nervous, or when you first started doing it, when you set those boundaries of either you would miss something or how people would react?
[00:48:31] Camilla: I still occasionally check my phone, turn back on the notifications. So yes, I would be lying if I said then I don't do that. what I've found is that it was almost never necessary. So it's because it kind of comes back to this thing of trying to flip mode when you are super intensively working and, I tend not to stop for lunch.
[00:48:57] Camilla: I try and really work intensively, it's then hard to flip out of that. You know, at the flick of a switch. And so, yes, I think it's difficult. but I, I do think that there are tools that can help. I think, you know, snoozing notifications is a good one. but it's tricky. there's just no, real solution to fully remove the kind of, at the back of your mind, oh, I still, need to send that email, or what am I gonna say to this person?
[00:49:34] Camilla: There's just no way to fully stop that and fully switch out of work mode and into parenting mode. I actually find it easier to do it the other way. I find it easier to not think about my children during the day because I know that they are in good hands either with the school or with the nanny, or with my husband or whomever.
[00:49:57] Camilla: With work, when I snooze my notifications, there's no one else monitoring my email. There's no one else monitoring my slack. And so I actually find it harder to switch out of work than to switch out of parenting.
[00:50:08] Mikenzie: Yeah. I put my notifications on snooze a lot, but sometimes I wonder if it's actually worse because then I tend to check it more often if I missed something rather than like most of the time I'm not getting messages. You're probably getting a lot of messages, but I do wonder which one is actually better for me in terms of checking out.
[00:50:28] Camilla: what I found really helpful is to tell my team, if it's urgent, please call
[00:50:31] Camilla: me. Then I know that there is a channel that is open that people will use if it's really urgent. and in an operational role, obviously things can come up. and so it's really valuable to know I don't need to check Slack because if it's really urgent, they'll call me.
[00:50:49] Mikenzie: And I guess that leads into my last main question. Then we'll go into a quick fire round, which is this latest mat leave. You'll also be reentering Deliveroo at a very big change. that will definitely require your expertise and new role probably coming in. How are you feeling about coming back after the acquisition?
[00:51:15] Camilla: I think what I've learned, and I guess to an extent how I survived at delivery this long is with change comes opportunity. And don't try and map out, you know, your next six chess moves or try and work out how things are going to play out. 'cause you just drive yourself crazy rather. go with the flow and seize the opportunities as they come.
[00:51:43] Camilla: So that's very much how I'm seeing this again, a new kind of return to work, in obviously a very changing context. I think there will be plenty of opportunities. I dunno what they will be, I dunno how they will play out, but I know that I am ready to seed them, and excited for the next chapter of motherhood and work.
[00:52:10] Mikenzie: Amazing. Very exciting times. Well, I wanna end on a quick fire round. So just quick question, quick response. what's one thing that your children have taught you that makes you a better business leader?
[00:52:29] Camilla: I. I think it's the realization, well, sometimes they do something really naughty or annoying and I wanna get annoyed at them, and then I realize it's actually my fault. I kept you up too late so you're tired because of me and you're cranky. Or, I didn't explain why I wanted you to do this thing. So understandably you are categorically refusing to do it.
[00:52:59] Camilla: And so realizing as a manager that you know, sometimes when people do something that frustrates you or isn't what you wanted, on you. Or if people are being grumpy or negative or not responding to something in the way that you wanted, again, it's on you. I think that that I found very helpful.
[00:53:25] Mikenzie: Hmm. If you could design one workplace policy to help women transition from motherhood and to working mother, what would it be?
[00:53:39] Camilla: I think the thing that would be most helpful is access to backup emergency childcare. Basically, the thing that I fear most from a day to day practicality perspective is the message from our nanny at six 30 that says, I'm not feeling well. I'm not gonna be able to make it in today. On a day when it's super busy.
[00:54:05] Camilla: There's no way that I can stay home to drop the kids off to school, et cetera. That, that is just a moment of, oh, oh God, what am I gonna do now? And having. Some access to backup childcare, is invaluable. Particularly if you are living away from family or you don't have other kind of support networks who can step in or other people who can step in at short notice.
[00:54:31] Mikenzie: I'm pretty surprised that the big tech companies where they have all these cushy perks wouldn't have a daycare or more around that.
[00:54:39] Mikenzie: Yeah, yeah.
[00:54:43] Mikenzie: given you work for food delivery app, I was wondering what your favorite app is as a working mother.
[00:54:51] Camilla: Ooh, good one. I mean, I do use Deliveroo a lot, including
[00:54:56] Mikenzie: deliver, I guess.
[00:54:58] Camilla: for the children. I find it brilliant that I can be on the tube on the way home and. Place an order for groceries that show up as I get home so that I have something to prepare for the kids. For me, it's just invaluable that it takes away, you know, I mentioned that one of the things is I have to do the kind of thinking and the planning that's tiring.
[00:55:27] Camilla: And not having to plan, all the meals to the week is invaluable. It like on the day I know that I can place a grocery order and that by the time I get to my front door, I will have the ingredients to make what the kids want for dinner. Now that is super helpful. So yeah, unsurprisingly, I picked delivery.
[00:55:48] Mikenzie: It's a great Deliveroo advert that we
[00:55:51] Mikenzie: have.
[00:55:51] Camilla: go.
[00:55:54] Mikenzie: and then the last one is, what's one piece of advice you'd give your pre-kids self?
[00:56:00] Camilla: What's one piece of advice I would say. This would've infuriated me, but don't worry, it will all work out in the end.
[00:56:15] Mikenzie: insane. the most common response. Both would be so angry at myself, but don't worry.
[00:56:21] Camilla: I do remember when I was going through the fertility treatment, being told, you know, the worst thing you can do is worry. I was like, great. So now I'm worrying about the fact that I'm worrying. It was really unhelpful, but I do think just go with it. It will work out in the end.
[00:56:37] Mikenzie: I love that. And for me, just hearing these stories where it's consistently, that has been really helpful So that's one of my goal to help our fellow warriors to not worry as much because you never know what's gonna happen. So.
[00:56:50] Camilla: Exactly. You never know what's gonna happen, but you know, something will happen. And with change there's almost always opportunity. I.
[00:56:58] Mikenzie: Great way to end it. Thank you so much, Camilla. This was
[00:57:01] Mikenzie: So great.
[00:57:03] Camilla: Thank you for having me.
[00:57:05] Mikenzie: That's all for today's episode of Leaning My Way. If you're enjoying the show, please follow us on Apple
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[00:57:19] Mikenzie: Know someone with a unique story about balancing career and motherhood. Or maybe you have that story yourself. Reach out. I'd love to hear from you. Okay, until next time, friends.