Defining Hospitality

In this episode of Defining Hospitality, Dan Ryan meets with Mary Alice Palmer, the Global Creative Director and Founding Principal at ROAM Interior Design. The conversation focuses on the innovative decision by HKS to spin out ROAM as a standalone design firm. Mary Alice shares insights into her career, mentorship influences, and the strategic considerations behind the successful rebranding and growth of ROAM. The discussion also highlights how this unique approach brings new value to the firm and attracts top industry talent.

Takeaways: 
  • Focus on developing a high-quality portfolio that showcases your team's abilities and success stories. A great portfolio can generate positive reactions and open new opportunities.
  • Develop a comprehensive business case and clearly articulate the value of any proposed change. Use data and strategic insights to back up your vision.
  • Encourage initiatives that push the boundaries of traditional business models. Be open to radical ideas that might initially seem counterintuitive.
  • Work with external consultants or brand strategists to gain fresh perspectives and objective insights that can help make a compelling argument for change.
  • Understand that markets and team dynamics evolve. Be flexible and willing to modify strategies as necessary to stay aligned with market demands and internal goals.
  • Support your team's development through mentoring, training, and continuous learning opportunities. Empower senior-level employees and keep them engaged with challenging projects.
  • Publicize your successes both internally and externally. Acknowledge the hard work and dedication of your team to boost morale and attract new talent.
Quote of the Show: 
“I've been down many roads in my career. I'm attracted to things that keep me curious and keep me excited and keep me feeling like I'm on an adventure.” - Mary Alice Palmer

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Creators & Guests

Host
Dan Ryan
Host of Defining Hospitality
Producer
Rayanne Pruitt

What is Defining Hospitality?

Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.

Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.

Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.

To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.

DH - Mary Alice Palmer
===

[00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan and this is Defining Hospitality.

This podcast is sponsored by Berman Falk Hospitality Group, a design driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in custom case goods and seating for hotel guest rooms.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: Today's guest is somebody with an eye for design, especially in the classic and contemporary elements. She's crafted connections through her design of unique and chic. luxury properties around the world. She brings a background in not only interior design, but fashion as well, with over 30 years of experience in the industry. She was recently featured in both Hospitality Design Magazine and Sleeper Magazine. She is the Global Creative Director and [00:01:00] Founding Principal at Roam Interior Design. Ladies and gentlemen, Mary Alice Palmer. Welcome Mary Alice.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: Thank you so much, Dan. It's good to be here.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: It's great to be here. And I think we first met, it must've been 10 plus or minus years ago. I don't remember exactly. We were working on the Bahamar project and we were in Asia together reviewing prototypes, and then that project went on. So many different holds and repositionings and all this. I really lost track.

Um, I've been to Asia many, many, many, many times, but it's always fun to get to know people on a different light level. When you go to the factory, review prototypes, solve problems in the factory. And, and, um, I just really appreciated that time with you. So I just want to say thank you for being here.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: Thank you. That was an interesting time and and 1, I will never forget because I sprained my ankle on that trip and they pushed me around the factory in a desk [00:02:00] chair.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: Yes, oh my god, I forgot that! That was, see, see how dedicated we all are.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: Exactly.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: Oh my gosh, that's hilarious. Um, needless to say, as I said in the introduction, um, despite all of the recent recognition that you're getting, um, you know, you've been doing this for, 30 years, plus or minus. So it's like you're, you've become this overnight success after many decades, right? Of hard work,

uh, just inspiration, working on great projects, building great teams. Um, and through all of that, hospitality has played an important role. So as we get into this, um, What does hospitality mean to

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: Well, I think hospitality is absolutely first and foremost about welcome and bringing people in with warmth and generosity to, uh, an [00:03:00] environment that exceeds, Expectations and offers a sense of discovery, adventure and experience and storytelling and, uh, and that, uh, they come away with memories that, uh, are lasting.

And, that is by engaging their emotions, uh, through that warmth and generosity and empathy for the guest. I think,

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: thank you. And if you were to paint a picture for us, what was the first hospitality project that you ever worked on? Wow, that's

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: uh, it was a wonderful.

Renaissance Hotel in

Dallas, Texas. And while the, hotel was never completed, we, I think we designed it three times with different, uh, approaches to the site and the change of site and then a different client and developer. And so, uh, but I learned a tremendous amount, um, and I will, uh, credit Holly Mickelson with Marriott with being my first [00:04:00] introduction to the hospitality experience with brand.

So, and we're working with Holly still today on a new project with Marriott. So, Well,

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: so that was your first experience. And then what, what kind of, what kept you in there? What kept you keeping into this? And leaning into this channel and this, this, like what I, I mean, I'm blind to it cause I've just been in it almost my whole life, but you know, what's kept you in hospitality design?

What, what, what keeps you coming back?

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: that's a really interesting question because it probably is going to involve quite a few parts of my career.

Um, and I think, you know, based on the fact that I, uh, I went to Parsons in New York, then I worked in, um, a luxury single family residential with John Saladino, um, leading the, the team. sort of interiors, uh, in New York at that time.

And then I got into the film business [00:05:00] and was doing set design. And so that was a very interesting journey about learning how, uh, environment propels character and propels script and propels a story. then, uh, I, Started into luxury leather goods. I founded a company as an entrepreneur that, um, uh, was around for a decade selling to, um, stores all over the country, as well as a little bit outside the country, like Barney's and, and, uh, and, and Neiman's others, and all the small boutiques.

but then when I had the opportunity to, uh, re engage in interior design, Um, I found hospitality in Dallas, uh, and what I learned was it was really a synthesis, I think, of so many of my experiences. And, uh, and so it, it really kind of was the great Um, connector of all, uh, because I think in, in [00:06:00] hospitality, you find, um, this sense of the cinematic, you find, uh, fashion, you find trends, you find, uh, you know, the understanding of creating a home like residential experience.

Experience that makes guests feel comfortable and, uh, the layers that make that happen. And so all of these things, I think, um, added up to something that I find very intriguing. And as you can tell, I'm an experienced junkie, . I've been down many roads in my career, um, all involving design, but nevertheless, um.

You know, I'm attracted to, um, things that keep me curious and keep me excited and keep me feeling like I'm on an adventure that, um, is revealing new, uh, new insights and new ways of thinking all the time. So hospitality to me kind of provides that each project is very unique. It's very different, um, different locations around the world because we're really a global team.

[00:07:00] And, uh, and we're working in multiple countries, uh, currently. So all those things together, um, keep me busy and keep me, keep my mind busy. Keep me, um, coming up with stories that are relevant to, uh, to the projects and, uh, and, and just learning. So to me, that's what keeps me there.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: I also think it's really important That we share with everyone. So just so everyone knows there are companies that like design firms that get acquired, um, and the company that acquires them may keep the name, may change the name. Um, there's other companies that merge. There's, there could be an argument over who, what the iteration of the name is going to be. but you at Roam did something really surprisingly And I'm actually really like, kind of, it took me off [00:08:00] balance for a second because I thought that's what I heard. And then I was like, no, that doesn't make sense. Cause that would never happen. But just so everyone knows Rome. is a subsidiary of HKS. And I'm really curious because oftentimes a, as you put it, Mary Alice, a big, a architecture firm, global architecture firm wants to keep their name and their brand.

There's a, there's an intellectual, um, property. There's a cachet. There's a brand recognition. Thousands of people are, I don't know how many, how many people work at HKS thousands. Yeah.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: Uh, yeah, like about 1700.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: Yeah, okay. So let's go with thousands, but they've spent decades building this brand and name recognition, but they did something which I completely admire, but some people may say is crazy, but I think it makes total sense, and I don't know why more people don't do it. They spun out Roam as its own standalone design firm. [00:09:00] And I want to know how that happened because that's crazy to get a big A, a capital A architecture firm to want to do that. So can you just like walk us through what the iterative process was, was to get that idea going and then actually make it happen?

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: it is, it's a really interesting, um, outcome because I was recruited to come to HKS from a much smaller firm, uh, now known as a Murphy Kramer. uh, and so, uh, I had a wonderful

experience there and great mentorship through Pat Murphy and Susan Seifert, um, and to really learn the ropes of hospitality.

Uh, and, I was recruited then to join HKS to create a new practice that had not existed previously at the firm. And that was to, uh, to engage in, uh, exclusively in hospitality interior design. And while they'd had, um, Uh, architecture and [00:10:00] hospitality specialized for about 25 years. Uh, nothing with interior.

So they were used to working with other interior designers, outside firms. And as you probably know, as many of your listeners probably know, um, there is, is a bit of a separation, um, of, of disciplines that is desired in hospitality. And for some, you know, various reasons. They feel that it's, uh, it's, it's better to have architecture and interiors separate.

Um, not in the same firm. And so I think there's always this kind of feeling that interior designers at a large architecture firm are kind of following the architects and just an ad service in, uh, in, in the architectural process. And that, uh, there may be, um, a disconnect or not as a robust, uh, design, addressing the [00:11:00] specifics of a project that, you know, we're just doing what the architects say, yada, yada, whatever the, the, the, um, the reasoning is that creative tension and, uh, the ability to really bring something that is about the interior and the guest experience and how the guests really experience a place.

And so, um, After kind of thinking through my, uh, my career and, and the way that I see this sort of entrepreneurial opportunity, um, I always thought, okay, this is my challenge to overcome this, um, this feeling and, The more that I talked, the more that I heard, the more that we grew in recognition, the more that I learned from those who were our would be, uh, clients, as well as those we worked with.

We, what we recognize is that we just weren't being, um, acknowledged and or understood in the industry, um, for the authenticity [00:12:00] of what we were doing.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: just want to jump in for one second, just to give the listeners some context. So I'll come up with two examples that are just top of mind. So a wonderful design firm out of Chicago. called Simeone Deary was acquired by KTGY. And for a while, for a couple of years, it was KTGY Simeone Deary. But now recently I just heard it's just KTGY and you know, there's, there's pros and cons to every decision everyone makes.

But personally, I think Simeone Deary was a great name and, and the provenance and the leadership that started that is pretty awesome. And I think that that, What did they say? The shingle you put on the side of the building. I think there's real value for that, especially in our niche world of hospitality design.

Okay. So we'll go with that one. So I'm not passing judgment. I'm just saying I'm reporting the weather. Okay.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: it can be different. Yeah.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: [00:13:00] On the other side, uh, WATG, a really big architecture firm. Um, out of Honolulu, but, you know, they have offices all over the place, um, they saw that the importance of having an interiors department and made Wimberley interiors.

So, WATG is Wimberley, Allison, Tonga, Goo, but, so they're, they're keeping some allegiance to that original founder. Founder name and brand identity. But HKS just went with Rome, R O A M, which I love for so many different levels. Like the name is great for kind of what, what you're doing and what we do in this industry. how did this idea come up and then what were some of the, the conversations or arguments or, um, kind of just distillation of, okay, this is, this makes sense. This is a sound idea. Let's go with it. Walk us through that.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: Sure. Um, well, I mean, to the firm's credit, I think they've seen the value of, you know, elevating, [00:14:00] uh, uh, interior design and, uh, and growing that as a market share, because, you know, obviously, um, they could, Double their market share if they had a great emphasis on interior delivery. And, uh, and so, but nevertheless, they, they still saw it as a kind of a more of a homogenized offering.

And the more we talked and the more that, um, we gathered Intel, um, it became very apparent to us. Uh, that we really needed to have our own identity because our story wasn't being told on our website. It wasn't being told, um, in ways that could, um, precede us rather than HKS, capital A architecture preceding us.

And so we. Went to work, uh, and created a pro forma, a business plan and, uh, and presented this business case to our, uh, executive board. And it, it was [00:15:00] astounding how easy it was because just, you know, maybe three or four people. Three or five years prior to that, we'd have heard never, never, never. Will you have your own name?

Never, never. Will you be separate? Never, never. Will this happen? And then suddenly when we were able to make the clear, um, case, they got it like almost immediately. And, uh, and that, uh, changed everything because they decided to make the investment. Um, we worked with a branding firm. We, uh, I think coming up with the name was one of the most, um, challenging aspects of, of, uh, breaking away.

Cause it shouldn't, it wasn't somebody's name that needed It was, uh, it's a team we're really about, um, being a team studio, a collaborative effort that, um, offers something that will go on into perpetuity, not just because of one particular person sitting at the head.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: Um, I have a

question, and I really like it, when you [00:16:00] said when you made the case and it became clear, and I, before I had used the word in all the different decision makings from all the different firms, and I just used those two just to paint a picture of like a spectrum, but, um, how did you all, all of the stakeholders involved in this decision, Know when it was clear

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: think when you start to look at, um. The, the deep understanding of the roadblocks or, or speed bumps that we encountered along the way, um, and to be able to educate around those, and that sort of, first of all, the clarity of the history and, and then we had a very clear path to turning those on. obstacles into assets and, uh, and to, to work through the rebranding to be able to reach our marketplace.

And that's really what it's all about is it has to be market driven. You have [00:17:00] to, you have to have the work, you have to know, know who you are and what you have the passion for creating, but it also has to be market driven in that you are reaching your market in ways that they can hear you. And, uh, and so having, like I said, the website and that sort of thing.

So I guess because we had all of the steps laid out and the strategy very, um, very well defined and, and the reasons why this was, would work. Um, we also did a, a, uh, a study with, uh, a brand strategist. Who was able to very clearly help us to deliver that message and, um, you know, sometimes you got to have that sort of outside eye for everybody to certainly start to take a look and go, wow, we, you know, maybe we should have understood this or now we get it.

And that's really what they said was, oh. Now we [00:18:00] get it. The light bulb went off and,

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: if you were to name like one or two of those obstacles that you mentioned, how did you look? Because I always find that interesting, getting a fresh perspective or looking at things a little differently where you take those obstacles and turn them into. Oh, actually, these are opportunities.

So these bottlenecks are actually. Opportunities and this can drive more value and create more opportunities. So give us an example of one or two of those obstacles that became opportunities. If you don't mind.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: well, we talked a little bit already about the desire for separation of, um, of the, you know, of, of architecture and interior design. And so, You know, by creating the new brand, we were able to turn that around into we have our own identity. We now can present the business case to you of our separation, but we also have the advantages of being still, um, you know, on the foundation of a [00:19:00] very large and very, uh, uh, well defined, um, that has technical prowess and process and delivery that exceeds any small individual boutique interior design firm.

So now not only do we have the, the, um, kind of cool factor of being all in one, On our own and completely bespoke and then combining that with delivery that, um, is really, uh, robust and having those advantages together in a package, um, if you will, and then still the opportunity to work with our architects, um, when that comes along and for them as to share work with one another.

But we also have other architects bringing us work, and we work outside of the framework of the HKS system completely on many occasions, and probably, um, half and half right now, maybe [00:20:00] 70, 30 on the other side of more with outside architects. and then, um, I think this idea of. HKS's reputation, um, which can be, you know, obviously much more geared towards the architecture, component, and the, all of the built work that they have in hospitality and their portfolio.

So all of that is then put on us as. That's who we are. And now with the new name, we've been able to turn that around to being, uh, you know, letting our name precede us and letting people judge us on our own merits. So, I mean, those are kind of a few examples. Does that answer your

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: does. I also think it's, um, you know, the most valuable asset any of us have is time, right? And I know I've heard anecdotally that there are some projects out there Where they want [00:21:00] both of these architecture function and the interiors function under the same umbrella for sake of time, because time in this case is money.

Right? Every, every day, every less coordination meeting, everything else that we could have and be under one, one house. That you could get awarded that I, so I feel like it solves that problem. That's really interesting. Um, but I also love the fact that you created this name that Rome, which is totally separate. And when you said it's 70 percent outside versus 30 percent inside now, right? But that could grow to even more. And that could just be its own. It's kind of standalone, uh, or it is its own standalone P& L and you're not, you're not as, um, tethered to the gravity of the name HKS either. So you can really forge another path.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: Yeah. And I think that brings value and advantages to the firm itself because [00:22:00] as our recognition grows and people understand that we have that, um, connectivity, um, with the firm, it, it definitely, um, brings. That value to the firm. For instance, we just got, I can't even count, I don't know, a dozen articles written about our new Nikki Beach project, um, in Antigua.

So we're doing their first luxury hotel, property, um, with, branded residential.

And, um, we've gotten Hugely published on it. And, uh, but in tandem, HKS is mentioned. Um, and so it is value that is being brought by, our PR group, um, to Rome, but then a shared, uh, uh, value that.

So, um, I think that's a really important thing to think about. And I think that comes from both of us, all of us, you know, being involved. So when we have those kinds of projects, um, uh, I think Rome's name is really lending value as we grow and become more and more known. [00:23:00] And plus it attracts attention as a new entity, too, you know, so being something that, you know, People are, you know, wondering about.

So that gets, uh, uh, you know, new avenues for recognition. And so, uh, that value then rubs off on all of our partners at HKS.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: I also think it's also cool to think about Rome as an incubator for design in the hospitality space, right? Or standalone interior space. But then HKS. I was just last week at the radical innovation event. I was, I was emceeing that and you guys won for like the most radical project idea called Bubble. You had

five women, I think five women from HKS were on the team.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: Yeah.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: You won the award. I was up there, um, with them on stage and I forget her, Maite, Maite. Is

that her name? Maite? She, yeah, she accepted the award for all of [00:24:00] you. Uh, and it was, it was really cool that you're, it's kind of like you have these now two separate and untethered, um, R& D functions in, in effect that

can also

help propel everyone in the industry forward.

I

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: Well, that's, what's great about. Having access to all of the advantages of the firm because, you know, they have research and development, they have, um, advisory, they have an innovative lab that we're creating in Los Angeles, which has a 3d printer that is big enough to print a chair. So we're getting into a product design and, um, you know, just the access to all of the, arms and the breadth and reach of the firm, you know, and having offices.

While our studio is only in Dallas and in London currently, we have a strategic growth plan that is on its way. But we're It helps us to have that [00:25:00] leg up by having all of those offices in these various locations. And we're working, like I said, throughout the world. Um, uh, and, and it gives us that facility because we're not just this small independent group.

We have, you know, a major, um, uh, a major entity behind us. And, uh. All that that brings to the table.

Hey everybody, we've been doing this podcast for over three years now, and one of the themes that consistently comes up is sustainability. And I'm just really proud to announce that our sponsor Berman Falk Hospitality Group is the first within our hospitality industry to switch to sustainable and recyclable packaging, eliminating the use of styrofoam.

Please check out their impact page in the show notes for more info.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: want to go back to the, The, the the big A architecture company, the legacy architecture company, getting everyone in that decision making process to [00:26:00] spin out this standalone entity of Rome. on a scale of one to 10, how difficult was it for them to make that decision?

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: Well, I think the executive board, by the time we took it to them, um, as a real ask, um, we had so put our ducks in a row, if you will, that, um, that, you know, they, they could see the value and the, the possibilities. Um, but leading up to that, it was a tremendous, uh, lift. Um, and I think, you know, My partner, Olga Acosta, and I tend to be, um, we tend to be kind of stubborn and relentless and stand our ground.

And you kind of have to be that way in a large firm like HKS. And when, you know, we, we, work collaboratively with our partners, but at the same time, we have to have a real strength of conviction. And so, um, you know, the challenges led up to that, that, uh, that, uh, [00:27:00] Creating of that business case and, um, the challenges both internally and externally.

And like I said, the CEO, just a few years prior to that had said, no way, no how, never going to happen because they were all about, you know, the one brand, the one firm. And, uh, and so, you know, it really was pretty astounding that

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: that's so surprising because again, when you talk about big A architect, I always liked, The idea of them being what's made them so successful as being this like uncompromising visionary, right? It's like, this is this is the North Star. We're getting there. And I'm uncompromising in all aspects to get there, right?

Whether it's design, business strategy, you name it. And it's really it. It's so surprising and, and refreshing that I don't know the players at the board of HKS, so I, but I would, I would just imagine if it's that kind of big A architecture mindset to get them to come off of that [00:28:00] and see the value and have humility about that decision. Based on all the data that you've presented them and have them change their mind over time, despite how, um, strong or stubborn, you said that you and Olga, your, your colleague, Olga, or your colleague

are, um, it's. It's really, I mean, it's totally surprising and refreshing and awesome. So thank you for sharing that. Um, when you were making the business cases, when did you start making the business cases and how did you paint them? And I think you've shared already some of them, but like

between then and where you are now or the path or the, the, uh, the runway that you've created, is it on target, off target, exceeding?

Would you have done something different?

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: Honestly, um, I think it's all working according to plan so far. I mean, uh, you know, it takes, it takes time to build that recognition with a new name and a [00:29:00] new brand. Um, but nevertheless, um, it's been quite astonishing how widely the doors have opened up for us. Um, just in a very, very brief amount of time, having just launched the brand, uh, just about a year ago in November.

Um, We have been accepted onto, um, All of the major brand luxury lists pretty much in North America and in Cala. Um, and also in, uh, the European market. And so we have been able to achieve a degree of acceptance that had eluded us. Um, previously, um, another, um, great, opportunity that, um, lend itself to Uh, that step up is the completion of the Ritz Carlton in Portland, Oregon.

And I think for Marriott particularly, um, when they saw the results of what we, uh, were [00:30:00] dedicated to for seven years and, uh, and working, you know, very, very relentlessly on their behalf. Um, as brand to ensure that the, uh, the outcome was going to adhere to the design intent. And so, uh, Nigel Hatcher, uh, was just very thrilled with the, the, um, results.

And we are now, um, one of two that are on the recommended list for Ritz Carlton. And we've received probably, I don't know, four RFPs for Ritz Carlton since then, throughout the world. Um, and so, you know, just things like that. And we're, we're on their, on their luxury list, uh, all across the board. Uh, and then, uh, other than, uh, W, which I, Rockwell is kind of mastering right now.

And then Hilton, um, Mandarin Oriental, one and only, Six Senses, Accor, all of them. Uh, we have, uh, been accepted [00:31:00] into that, that sort of elite group, um, very quickly. Uh, and you know, while we had these connections and conversations prior to the new branding, um, Um, the, the, the doors blew off when, uh, there was a new brand to, uh, to welcome in.

And so, and we're doing a Waldorf Astoria in Park City. we're working on with Baccarat where, um, uh, it's a, a long list. And so we're just, yes, it's working.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: Wonderful. So you, you almost could feel comfortable, although maybe get more than a year under there to say like, I told you so.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: Yeah, well, I mean, I think what, what's, what, what makes me excited is that the great reaction to the portfolio that we've been able to build and the incredible team that we have that, um, has, you know, never settled for, for less than the best. And they've exceeded and [00:32:00] raised the bar through every endeavor.

Um, to the point where I think we have a spectacular portfolio. And, and, um, and that's been so well received and that, that really goes to years of hard work. Um, and, uh, and that was, that was the precursor. It's not as if we just decided to invent a brand. It's that we have the work that supports it. And, uh, and the team that, that really gets it.

So I, I give huge credit to, um, the team and, and their accomplishments. And, and that I think also, you know, brought the value to, um, our board to understand that what we're doing is really worthwhile. And, and, and now it's, it's more accessible to our marketplace through, um, all of these things that we've been talking about.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: and how long have you, how long were you at HKS before the past year,

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: So a dozen, a dozen years.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: 12 years? So what is it, [00:33:00] so in this year that you've kind of spun out and created this new identity, as it pertains to hospitality design and people, how has it been attracting talent? Or recruiting talent before versus after.

Like walk me through that.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think as we're in our, uh, sort of growth period, um, we're, we're definitely attacked, attracting talent that is, uh, on the, the, um, the very senior level that, um, is very interested in joining a group that is, um, Um, and may I say led by women and, uh, and that, you know, and still to this day, this industry is very heavily dominated by a lot of men, you know, names on the door and, and that sort of thing.

So I think that that makes us kind of. Special and attracting talent. Um, I think that, uh, that there's enough buzz, uh, going on [00:34:00] around this that, um, we were getting, you know, just a lot more, um, interest and, uh, it's hard though to find mid level people based on the kind of exodus and COVID and switching around and everybody's looking right now.

So we're hiring just in case anyone wants to know. But, uh, yeah, no, we've got some really, um, interesting senior talents that we're, we're looking at and, uh, and, you know, other locations. So

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: And then in palace, are you within the HKS footprint or are you going to have your own office? Do you have your own office? Like walk me through that.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: Currently we're within the HTTPS footprint and, uh, you know, it's a slow build. We're, we're not looking to, uh, to freak anybody out. We're just making our way, um, as the, as.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: me, you're freaking me out because it's so like against the playbook, what you guys have done. I, I can't think of anyone else. Any other large firm that's done that. I mean, even [00:35:00] as you're talking, I'm just, I'm trying desperately to go through your website and see if it says anything about HKS in here.

And it's like, I don't think it does. It says like your address in Dallas is probably the same address as HKS, but it's literally

not a subsidiary, not a this, not a that. It's like its own thing that takes real courage. I think.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: well, kudos to our CEO, Dan Noble, who, I think, has really, uh, made it his, tenure's work as the CEO to, uh, to, to sort of change The direction and perception at HKS, uh, and, and place tremendous value on design and, uh, and, and innovation. And so I think that we align, um, directly with that. And, uh, and so we, while what we do is very, very different than what a lot of the rest of the firm does, [00:36:00] um, It brings value in, in the sense that, um, people see, uh, what we're up to and how does that, you know, do, do something for what they're doing or how can we then share thought leadership in ways that, um, make sense and bring value to everything.

And so I think Dan really, um, uh, you know, went out there, in support of when he decided that he. Truly got it. He got it. And he has been nothing but a tremendous champion for us, as well as Kirk Teske, who runs our sector. And, uh, and so the two of them, I think, you know, uh, uh, saw the strategy as relevant and they're very excited about how it's playing out.

I just got an email this morning from Kirk that said strategy's working. This is great. So amazing.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: your salary.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: Thank you for that, Dan.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: [00:37:00] No.

Yeah, it's pretty, it's, it's really, uh, it's pretty, I mean, it's really cool. I'm, I'm kind of like, I'm really taken aback by it. It's just so not the normal, but now I'm repeating myself over and over because I'm so like, knocked off balance by the whole thing. If you were to think about from starting at Saladino and then your, your journey through where you are now at Rome, what are some mentors that kind of, that you, that you might want to give a shout out to that really helped you kind of think differently and gave you courage to take next steps? Are there, are there any stories that, that you can share about mentors, whether like formally or not formally, just, People who cared for you and kind of how, how they gave you nudges to take these, these big steps.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: Sina was a great in inspiration. I mean, he, he truly was, um, a unique character and I love that he, um, was. [00:38:00] Very self deprecating, but at the same time, from Kansas City, he always called himself the last of the Edwardian snobs. And so I, I loved his, his, uh, charisma and his ability to really pull things together in ways that were.

Absolutely not intuitive, but then it just set everything else off and they were unusual juxtapositions and, um, you know, on his, his very own color sensibility that was so gorgeous. And so I valued that, um, very much in my life. I worked for him, um, when I was at Parsons in the sample library and the sample library is undervalued today.

It should be have more emphasis on it.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: Yes.

They get smaller and smaller every year.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: yeah, but, uh, I think, you know, that, that was, that was a huge, um, [00:39:00] opportunity that I, that I found myself in that I, I, I really value to this day. And then, uh, I was, I was with them after, after I finished school as well, briefly. And then, uh, when I moved into the film business, um, That to me, I wouldn't, I don't have any one particular individual, but one, one production designer, um, really encouraged me.

Um, uh, his name was Greg Bolton and, uh, he, uh, he, he convinced me that you could really do anything you put your mind to. And that, you know, starting out in a field that I wasn't really familiar with, he gave me the courage to just continue to, to, to grow and grow and grow. He was a. Great teacher and, uh, always helped me understand every aspect of the industry and the process and introduced me to people on a regular basis.

And, um, you know, that he, he probably was, um, very instrumental. I hadn't thought about that in a while, but for sure [00:40:00] he was. And that also gave me the courage to go out and start a new business. Um, Which was fashion and start from scratch making leather goods and moving to Argentina and not speaking a word of Spanish.

And, you know, the adventure really started to take shape based on those who encouraged that independence and that, um, that, that mindset that, Whatever it is you set your mind to, you can make it happen.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: I'm also curious as far as a larger architecture firm, I've talked to other people who work at larger architecture firms over the years and whether Interiors is separate or not, um, and however, whatever facet that is, they do oftentimes bring the hospitality designers into the kickoff Of a non hospitality project, whether it's something in aviation or, I don't know, education or healthcare, you know, all the different silos that we have in, in, [00:41:00] uh, in architecture and design. Does that happen between Roam and HKS or? In your experience, how might that happen more so that, like, what could the rest of the firm firms learn from hospitality design?

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: Well, I think, um, in just about every practice, um, you know, there may be some exceptions, but, um, certainly within, for instance, healthcare and sports and venues. And even commercial and, uh, commercial mixed use. Um, there's, there is the desire for that influence of hospitality. Um, as hospitality looks to residential, I think other, um, practices look to hospitality to inspire, um, the experience of the people inhabiting their buildings.

And, uh, and so we have, uh, created sort of. Three ways that the firm can engage with, uh, with Roam. And that [00:42:00] is, um, uh, as an advisory, essentially, um, going after a project. So for instance, I, or, another member of our team could go to interviews, um, with the firm. These, uh, other practices to help to deliver that message of understanding of the hospitality influence, and then how we can help through kind of a conceptual phase perhaps, or as an advisory on what they're doing, um, to, to ensure that they're using that kind of, um, uh, storytelling and, and, um, experiential journey, um, in the ways that they, uh, um, their design process happens.

And so, um, we definitely we have that sort of thought leadership sharing. And then there's, uh, the more collaborative, um, in which we would be actually engaged on the project to work alongside, um, but still defined as Roam and as this unique entity that would have a separate contract. [00:43:00] And that can happen both with our architects and hospitality.

And, and then it can also happen for instance, in sports, um, where. The Joneses with the Dallas Cowboys are renovating the AT& T Stadium and they asked our team to come in and do all of the VIP owner suites as well as the owner's club. And then half of it is finished and then we'll complete the other half after the

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: No, I meant the whole stadium. Didn't that, that's like a new stadium.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: That was one of the first ones that HKS did that really put them on the map, um, for, um, big stadiums. You're, you're thinking of probably SoFi,

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: maybe this is where time flies. I feel like I went to, there was an NEWH event at the stadium, at AT& T stadium, you know, after it had just opened.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: that was a while ago. Yeah. So probably, um, maybe 10 years ago.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: No way. That

doesn't seem like that long [00:44:00] ago. ' cause I

remember we got to walk out there onto the field. It was really cool. It was really awesome. Okay, so the three ways, there's an advisory component, there's this collaborative component, and then what? What's the third way?

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: And then the third way is that we work completely independently. So, um, the first two are about engaging with the firm. And then the third is that we are fully independent. We're either doing a reservation or a renovation, or we are working on a, uh, an adaptive reuse, or, uh, we are, um, doing. Um, work with another architect and, uh, we have architects on our team that are registered architects.

So, uh, we, we can function fully independently, um, if necessary. So for instance, on a project like, um, Esperanza. Uh, which we're doing another refresh after, um, 2016. Um, we opened after, uh, completely renovating the property and we, we influenced, um, [00:45:00] all of the buildings, the color of the buildings, the, the, we designed the Palapa roofs.

We designed, the hardscape, we designed the, landscape features. We, um, recolored the pool and, uh, created a scenario where everything blends seamlessly into the rocks and the ocean, plus doing all of the interiors. And so in that case, it was a standalone. And, uh, and they've called us back after eight years to refresh the guest rooms.

And, um, it's been so successful. We won the gold key award back in 2016.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: Wow, I remember that.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: um, but so those are things where, I mean, we can actually. as well. Um, but you know, I think a lot of value comes from when we can partner with our architects. And because of our kind of familiarity and understanding, we bring a lot of value to the table in approaching a project not only architecture, [00:46:00] And interior design, but then also, um, landscape and even advisory doing market studies to really understand how to best position a property.

And, uh, so, you know, we, we, we love that we can have all this shared knowledge to offer and clients can come to that in any way that they like. Um, it gives them a great deal of, um, freedom and, uh, options.

and our team, just to note, we work in the Revit model also. So, um, we, we're one of the few interior design firms that, uh, that uses Revit.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: hmm. Yeah, it's becoming more and more prevalent

and I think it's really. It's, it's pretty cool what that is capable of doing. Just again, from saving time, like you're, you maybe spend more time modeling everything out at the front end when dollars and cents matter even more, it makes everything way more seamless, um, from costing to scheduling to everything.

And so it's, it's pretty remarkable. [00:47:00] I'm, I'm excited to see that gain more and more because it also just, when you're working in that model, it also just forces everyone, you have to plan more, you have to really. Plan out resources, designs, details, everything so much more and make sure everything goes together. Again, it's that front end knowledge work that makes everything else run that much smoother and cost effectively. so Mary Alice, if you were to go back in front of the Mary Alice working at Saladino while you were, you were an intern, what would you do? Right.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: And then, uh, junior designer after I finished school,

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: from Parsons, so if you were to magically appear in, in front of the Mary Alice that was at Parsons working at Saladino, uh, what advice would you have for yourself?

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: just relax. I think, you know, there's no greater truth than, um, if knew then what I know now. Because I think that's what you gain at a certain point in your life, which I will not [00:48:00] name. I think you, You finally realize that there are things come around and go around and nothing is the end of the world.

That everything is about, you know, learning and continuing to grow and that, you know, your entire life doesn't hinge on one decision or one moment. Um, and it may change. Things, uh, in, in certain ways, it's the, the paths that you choose and not those that you don't. And so I now look back at my life as a great adventure rather than, um, uh, you know, At the time, desperately trying to figure out what I should do and who I should be.

And what does that mean? And, you know, that's probably why I switched around so much because I was experimenting. But now I look back on it and go, what an adventure. And I could have just relaxed and seen it that way at the time. would have had a lot less [00:49:00] anxiety.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: totally. But you know what, that's why I love that question because even though you may, we may have done something differently. When we started or given ourselves some advice to like, change our trajectory a bit, that struggle is what helps us sharpen our

blades

to become ourselves. Right. And who we really are. So, um, I just want to say this has been a wonderful. wonderful. conversation. And I thank you for putting yourself out there with everyone. And also I thank the leaders of your company and may there be more like it out there who can set ego aside and look at things objectively and make really surprisingly radical changes. Um, and I think we can all, we all could learn from that because it's, it's, uh, it's good to check yourself every once in a while and see, see what's good. And I, and I wish you continued success on your, on your journey.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: you thought you knew me, [00:50:00] Dan.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: I should have gotten you a real wheel wheelchair in that factory instead of pushing you around on a, on a, on a task chair.

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: I always like to be a surprise.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: I mean, this has just been wonderful. So really a wholehearted, thank you, Mary

mary-alice-palmer_1_10-28-2024_141813: Well, thank you so much, Dan, for the opportunity. It is always a pleasure talking with you no matter where we are. Uh, I enjoy connecting and this is really fantastic. So thanks for having me.

dan-ryan_33_10-28-2024_151809: Thank you. And also thank you to all of our listeners, because without you, I wouldn't be speaking with amazing people like Mary Alice and hearing these incredible business case stories. Um, and sharing with them, with all of you and hopefully impacting everyone else in some kind of way to help shorten. So if this has changed your thinking on anything, business, design, life, please pass it along because we grow every week because of you, uh, by word of mouth, mostly. So thank you. And we'll catch you next time.

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