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Dear Writer, giving and receiving feedback can be hard. Haven't you ever wished you could watch someone else's writing group to see how they do it?
This podcast is focused on just such a writing group. Join authors JC Bybee, Grey Alder, and Tyler Hess as they razz and encourage each other, talk about every writing topic under the sun, and exemplify the subtle art of helping other writers write better.
00;00;00;02 - 00;00;39;15
Unknown
But one way you can do your middle is have your villain, your antagonist be growing in presence and probably not a good thing. But having more explicit like this is what he was like. I wanted the building, the dread, because that's what we're working on for that. I think this especially when when Isaac rolls up his sleeve and shows what have like, evidence, physical evidence on someone that this is a bad thing is going to help that conflict that warrants probably going to end up with over.
00;00;39;15 - 00;00;55;01
Unknown
I want to help these people, but I don't want this to happen again.
00;00;55;04 - 00;01;18;00
Unknown
It's stuff I talk about in here. I unit stuff that has to do with Ace's power set that I just don't feel like it needed. I don't feel like it needed emphasized overly much. I wanted to be more about Jessica. So I get, I think if I could go back in time and talk to you as you're writing book one, I would recommend you not make everyone so freaking powerful and invincible.
00;01;18;02 - 00;01;28;08
Unknown
But now you're married to it. You can't really change it though. Pretty much.
00;01;28;11 - 00;01;51;11
Unknown
By the way, I just, I just yeah, I was part of and part of it was a deliberate decision because I wanted it to be how do I not make it about the powers? Like how do I make the cases? Not about, I mean, how do I not make it to where, oh, it's Superman, we have to use Kryptonite, or we have to kidnap Lois Lane to make sure that we can make Superman do what we want.
00;01;51;14 - 00;02;06;00
Unknown
And so that's that's been my aim, and I, I, I've achieved it with varying degrees of success, I would say.
00;02;06;03 - 00;02;23;04
Unknown
But it's fun. It's fun to see, like, as we're getting into as you and I get into the revision process, seeing our revising. And when you get there. It'll be it'll be interesting to see what you do with your with your story so much.
00;02;23;06 - 00;02;40;11
Unknown
Did you hear him say that we're recording gray I did. Does that mean are you going to edit this out? I'm hoping I can edit. I can edit a little desperately hoping. I just thought, you know, we were in the middle of another conversation. I could know it was a good idea. I get some cool B-roll footage or.
00;02;40;14 - 00;02;51;13
Unknown
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, that'd be funny. Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. I cut you off. No, I'll save it for when we're not recording.
00;02;51;15 - 00;02;58;19
Unknown
Fair enough. I have got to get a chair that doesn't squeak so bad.
00;02;58;21 - 00;03;22;28
Unknown
When I'm doing my videos over on my channel, I'm like, good. Heck, every time I move, it's like, hey. Oh, man, you've been pumping those out though, man. I haven't even been able to keep up. Yeah, it was quite a lot like my goal is nothing longer than 20 minutes at the beginning. I might do longer ones, like once people have gotten kind of used to it and want to hear a little bit more.
00;03;23;05 - 00;03;50;25
Unknown
But yeah, 20 minutes. I think probably the longest one will be when I have you come on for character videos. Yeah. When you want to do that, something else, I gotta go. Yeah, I'm going to go through my organization ones first and then see where I'm at. Go from there. It might be good just to record something, because I foresee me getting a lot busier in the future.
00;03;50;27 - 00;04;13;29
Unknown
Okay. So even if, like, yeah, we could record something. Yeah, we could just have it in your back pocket. Do, like a YouTube colab. Yeah, that'd be good. Figure out how to do that. Yeah, we would have to figure. I don't know how to do either. I'm sure it's not hard.
00;04;14;01 - 00;04;40;00
Unknown
All right, guys. Hello and welcome to third Person POV, a writer's group. Third person POV is a real writer's critique group, which beams our sessions out onto the internet for all to enjoy and hate and love and despise. Whatever you want to do with this third person POV is passionate about helping each other and you through the writing, editing, and publishing process.
00;04;40;03 - 00;05;07;04
Unknown
We are composed of myself, so I'm Gray Alder. I'm a newbie indie author looking to write and publish my first book. So in the middle of that process right now, going at a nice snail's pace, we also have Jake Bybee, who is our resident Gandalf. Just look at his beard if you need proof of that fact. Jake has he's dabbled in fantasy, which I should mention I also do.
00;05;07;05 - 00;05;19;18
Unknown
He's dabbled in superhero procedural sci fi romance, right? Actually, yeah, I do, I do. Eventually. Yeah. No.
00;05;19;20 - 00;05;44;17
Unknown
Amish techno romance. He's done. There we go. He's currently published eight books, and he's looking to expand that to ten books by the next month year. So May 15th. Right. That's the the big that's the release date. That's D-Day. And what books are you come out with next month? So they will be the sequel to my first book in my Collins with Case Files series.
00;05;44;23 - 00;06;08;11
Unknown
So it's Techno Manser book two, and then the third book in the mystery series, and that will be The Phantom Thief. Fantastic. We'll be looking forward to that. I really don't know if you should call release dates D-Day. Gray. I think that have a bad connotation. You know what they is, don't you? Well, that has to do with when Hitler released all the dinosaurs.
00;06;08;11 - 00;06;24;10
Unknown
And was it Russia? Well, it's related to Hitler. It's Norman Beach. When we storm Norman, be like a million guys. Like, actually like a million guys. I appreciate that history lesson. And for the record, I know it. D-Day is okay, I was just.
00;06;24;12 - 00;06;36;04
Unknown
It's just day or something. I don't know what if I told you that writers have a tendency to be very dramatic? Would you believe me? Oh, gosh, Tyler.
00;06;36;07 - 00;06;48;00
Unknown
That's a great segue. That's a great segue to our last and final host of third person POV. This is in fact.
00;06;48;03 - 00;07;16;24
Unknown
That self-congratulatory nonsense. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't have power over over our over our. Tyler, I should mention, is the producer of this podcast, and his finger is constantly hovering over the self-congratulatory praise button, so don't be surprised if that happens again. Tyler Hess is a male model, an entrepreneur, an editor. He wears all the hats on this podcast, so if you have any editing needs, you can definitely visit his website.
00;07;16;26 - 00;07;45;00
Unknown
I should probably plug all of our websites, but which is Tyler has blogspot, has Tyler blog, has Tyler blog. Jacob. Yes sir. And great books. So yeah, if you're looking for a developmental editor, if you're looking for a copy editor, if you were looking for. I can't think of a clever joke right now. Tyler does it all. A male model, apparently.
00;07;45;02 - 00;08;02;07
Unknown
Yeah. Yes. Although I guess it goes without saying that all of us. Wow. So much production value this episode. We spent all of our budget on sound effects. No CGI at this time.
00;08;02;09 - 00;08;25;09
Unknown
Wow. Oh, man. I thought about implementing a little bit of CGI, but I haven't. It'll be interesting. I should mention, since we don't have green screens or the budget for it. If you look behind Jake, look at that fabulous bookcase. It's so organized now. There's no papyrus scrolls where the books. Jessie, what are the books sitting on the top shelf there?
00;08;25;10 - 00;08;54;10
Unknown
Those look really awesome. Please. These are all mine. All eight of them? Not many people can say that. That's awesome. Okay, well, changing gears here, we have another day. It's going to have a clapping thing. Oh, sorry. We have another important date coming up. Let me rephrase. Let me pass the mic over to Tyler. If you're still capable of coherent speech after making so many jokes, we'll see.
00;08;54;11 - 00;09;13;14
Unknown
We'll see. There's a couple of ones on here that they are not clear what they are, so I might just try them as we go along. This is oh, oh. That one's actually works very well. May 15th do that again. In a world where three handsome writers get together to give feedback and advice.
00;09;13;17 - 00;09;34;06
Unknown
That it's not going to do. May 15th, 4:00 Garden City Central building of the Gem State Comic-Con. Be there, be square. We're doing the community panel. It's going to be super cool. We're going to we're going to talk about writing groups. We're going to talk about writing, do a critique session, a little mini critique session to to show people what it can be like.
00;09;34;07 - 00;09;46;22
Unknown
And then we'll be signing autographs afterwards. For 20 bucks a pop, you can feel Jason's beard.
00;09;46;24 - 00;09;57;13
Unknown
Did you run through all the sound effects like, are there any left? There's there's still more. There's still more. Okay. Can you just play those at Riverside FM?
00;09;57;15 - 00;10;06;27
Unknown
Thank you.
00;10;06;29 - 00;10;13;29
Unknown
Okay. That's not what that was called. The whispers of Dawn. That was not what that one's called. Mom dance.
00;10;14;01 - 00;10;40;04
Unknown
Okay, serious? We're a serious group. We are individuals. Group individually. We are very serious together. We are something that you put three guys together. They have a third of a brain. Approximately. Yes. Loud. Is that really loud for you guys? Yeah, yeah. I'm done, I'm done. You probably I apologize.
00;10;40;07 - 00;11;04;24
Unknown
Should we, should we at this point on Fridays. So happens when we're all just sugar high and fatigued. Yes. Jake, would you like to queue your future handsome self? Sure. Cue future me. Hey, everyone. Future Jake here. Just giving context on this week's chapters. This week it was continuation of Lost Souls. Probably not going to be what always is up.
00;11;04;24 - 00;11;29;25
Unknown
I've got a couple of projects I'm working on but Lost Souls this week, and the guys are going through the next two chapters. Not a lot to to talk about plot wise. It's continuing the repercussions of what happens at the end of chapter two and the revelation of Sarah's manna blessing.
00;11;29;28 - 00;11;46;07
Unknown
A lot of it is about keeping the right kind of voice, the right using dialog and and trying to make sure that I don't get bogged down in the details like I tend to do when I'm writing. And.
00;11;46;09 - 00;11;50;15
Unknown
I think that's it. Enjoy.
00;11;50;17 - 00;12;23;11
Unknown
Okay. All right. Thank you. Future Jake. All right. Let's jump into it. So we're being silly. Jake submitted another fantastic piece this week. I will go ahead and proceed now to rip that to shreds in order to validate my own sense of worth. All right. Okay. So, Jake, your piece this week was just a continuation of what we read last week when we were gathered here with Kim.
00;12;23;14 - 00;12;45;18
Unknown
So your working title is Lost Souls, which I love. And this is sort of a mix, a mashup of a Regency slash fantasy piece. All right. Yeah. Should we? Sorry, sorry. Great. Should we just mention that? You know, Kim just wasn't able to join us. We will see her again, which wasn't able to to come up with this episode.
00;12;45;20 - 00;13;10;13
Unknown
Like. Like many, like many new writers, she has a life. A life, work job, you know, responsibilities that, you know, she just can't sit at her computer all day, every day and write for those who are only listening to us because we finally had a female on the podcast, she will be back, we promised Kim. That was the first first comment.
00;13;10;15 - 00;13;34;05
Unknown
First comment on YouTube was yeah. It was like, wasn't that your wife? Believe in that comment though, isn't it? That was my wife. Oh really? Yeah. That's not it was like CBBC Bibi. I thought it was a byby at least. Maybe I misread, maybe. No relation. Whoever you are, thank you for leaving. Comments. We love you. Yes, yes.
00;13;34;07 - 00;13;54;14
Unknown
Oh man, you're going to be the top comment for the first like 19 videos. And when we have our additional 19,000 fans, they're all going to have to follow the tone that you set. Oh man, I actually I actually want to get it right. So I'm gonna look. But you go ahead. No I'll tell I'll reveal who the mystery commenter was after all.
00;13;54;15 - 00;14;22;13
Unknown
Right. Sounds good. Back to sharpening the butcher knife for Jake's piece. Here. All right. No, Jake, you continue to come out strong. I think you retain all of your strengths and weaknesses from last chapter, so I don't want to harp on anything in particular too much. I did have one point in particular that I think that would be good to hone in on, but just for starters, you continue to have a really strong sense of voice.
00;14;22;13 - 00;14;44;01
Unknown
It's very clear to me that this character lives in this world and talks a certain way. And even beyond that, she sounds different from the people in this world because she is the protagonist. She is interesting of her own accord, and she speaks with a very strong sense of personality. Right. She's constantly looking to explain. Yeah. Main character energy.
00;14;44;01 - 00;15;08;03
Unknown
Thank you. Shorthand wave saying that. So you continue that that continues to be very strong. You open up the chapter with just this new reality that Sarah has embarked on. Sarah. Right. What do I yeah, yeah, continually forget the names of main characters. Okay. We'll just call it all simmers. So Sarah is now recognized as this this high class mage.
00;15;08;03 - 00;15;31;09
Unknown
So she's stepping into a new world with everything that goes along with it, which is super interesting. I can see this being essentially the second draft, or at least the second draft that we have read of this material. I can see where we've made changes, which I find super helpful to kind of especially lend some physical description to some of the characters who pop up here, which is great.
00;15;31;10 - 00;16;02;22
Unknown
I can picture them so much better than I could before. Yeah. My I think my central critique here is essentially on the subject of dialog. So let me find this note here that I left in particular. Okay. And I'm just going to read this word for word, if you would be so kind as to hammer me. So on the paragraph starting with a of course it is an honor to serve the mage the family of made ship.
00;16;02;25 - 00;16;21;22
Unknown
He gave me a deeper vow, which I returned with a nod as was appropriate. After a long night of crying, I had come to a form of acceptance of my new situation. So this is sort of following on the heels of this interaction between the the Lord overseer and our main character and her family as they grapple with ramifications of the fact that she is now a high class mage.
00;16;21;29 - 00;17;00;05
Unknown
So all that's interesting, I think just in general, though, and I'll read my note. I must admit that after billing the okay, excuse me, there's another man who's the secretary of Lord overseer, who you're describing here. You describe him as mousy and dusty, which I love of some great description in this chapter. But after billing this man as mousy and dusty, you kind of had me eagerly awaiting those traits to reveal themselves in the dialog that he would then speak in some sort of like, exaggerated Dickinson and fashion, but his reply is sort of muted.
00;17;00;05 - 00;17;19;26
Unknown
It's right to the point. It's kind of on the nose. It doesn't really reveal anything about any sort of character, which would be okay if this is a bit part like I suspect it is this kind of secretarial role. You don't necessarily need to to puff them up, but you gave them a really interesting description. So I was expecting some interesting character to kind of drip out of his dialog.
00;17;19;28 - 00;17;47;02
Unknown
So this brings me to a larger point about dialog. You cited some of your inspirations before for this piece, so I'll go ahead and just bring up one and kind of add another from this general period. So both Dickens and especially Jane Austen were known for very clever, exaggerated dialog that revealed the inner ironies of their characters. The foolish or eclectic characters reveal how foolish or dumb they are, without even realizing that they're doing so just by speaking.
00;17;47;03 - 00;18;11;00
Unknown
Right. And we find that funny. The Mr. Collins of these worlds we've made much to do about, and by contrast, the intelligent characters, the Elizabeth Bennet's oftentimes they're they're portrayed as being very analytical characters, and they're able to accomplish basically the inverse of this through their dialog. They're able to show us just how witty they are. Right? And then their dialog is oftentimes very biting.
00;18;11;00 - 00;18;32;03
Unknown
There's some there's some hidden invective and conflict just kind of seeped into their dialog. They can kind of essentially talk to another character and insult them without other character realizing they're being insulted. And that subtext makes their dialog really interesting. The fact that there's like, baked in conflict without their the character even realizing necessarily that they're being insulted.
00;18;32;03 - 00;18;51;20
Unknown
And and you don't have to do that. Exactly. But all of this are just these are just sort of these shining examples of the traits of this kind of dialog that I think you're going for here. And I just kind of want to see more of that. I, I would like you to, to kind of crank up your dialog.
00;18;51;20 - 00;19;15;19
Unknown
I know that we've talked about you being really nice to your character, isn't I, once again in this chapter noticed sort of a lack of conflict. Everyone is very nice to each other. When the the butler asks the the mom, the matron of the house, you know about how he should serve tea. She's very cordial and inviting regarding giving him instructions on how to connect with the maid who's in the service of the family to go about doing that.
00;19;15;19 - 00;19;35;23
Unknown
There didn't seem to be a lot of, you know, class distinction. That's one possible place where he could introduce even more conflict, right? The battle of the classes, the battle of the sexes, the different political levels of power, the fact that the Lord overseer is now on equal or potentially even lower footing than our main character who is a child.
00;19;35;25 - 00;19;58;03
Unknown
I mean, all of these are great potential wellsprings for for conflict that you can then smuggle into the dialog to make things, you know, tense or interesting or funny. Not to say that you didn't have a lot of examples of your dialog being those things, but I think that you have so much opportunity here, just given the kind of and tone and excellent voice that you've set up for yourself to do that.
00;19;58;03 - 00;20;24;17
Unknown
So sorry for that monologue. Yeah. You said a lot of really good things about I'm going to remark on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Does that make sense? Jayce. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right. I didn't want to dogpile on that too much, but no problem. Yeah. And then all that. Go ahead. Sorry. That is one of the things is I am trying to.
00;20;24;19 - 00;20;40;27
Unknown
Find places to put in the stakes, conflicts. That's something I hadn't thought of as as much.
00;20;41;00 - 00;20;48;21
Unknown
The shifting of the social classes is something I'm trying to emphasize.
00;20;48;23 - 00;21;15;02
Unknown
That's it's a learning curve for her. So that might be something. Yeah. And just to pick out a few things that I really enjoyed in this chapter, Josias character I think is is the really enjoyable thing. Like when when she's invited she's like, okay, or I think the Lord overseer or the secretary is like, now you got to go do paperwork because, you know, you don't get to be the special chosen one without doing paperwork.
00;21;15;02 - 00;21;30;28
Unknown
And she's kind of like, oh, boy, you know, like, so I'll just read it because I enjoyed it, she says. I enjoyed her standing. How the world works, whether through the laws of nature or the laws of man. And my newly acquired position as a mage entitled me to read all the documents my father was signing in my behalf.
00;21;30;28 - 00;21;50;27
Unknown
So she's like, yay! Like I get to get in on the, you know, on the little details on the fine print. And she's like, happy about that. She makes some funny comment about meetings earlier, which was funny too. I don't remember if it's or some other Russian philosopher or writer who was. He made this funny point when he was sent to a Russian gulag.
00;21;50;27 - 00;22;09;08
Unknown
Basically, he's like, well, it's terrible here. Everyone has frostbite and we're it dying and dropping like flies and doing slave labor. But hey, there's no meetings. And I that felt like it came through with Sarah's comment. So you have a lot of little funny moments like that. And I think she, she is young in this chapter, but I feel like you have so much potential.
00;22;09;08 - 00;22;37;12
Unknown
Just make her such a witty little creature or, you know, like play that up even more if you wanted to. Yeah. Yes. That's essentially all I got. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I completely agree. Sarah is such a cool character. You've really got her voice down, which is really great. It's kind of it's I think it's going to carry people through the book, like it's going to keep making them one to to read more and know what the heck is going to happen.
00;22;37;13 - 00;22;47;06
Unknown
Like, why is she? Why is she basically writing this memoir to dispel rumors about her? About her?
00;22;47;08 - 00;22;56;21
Unknown
Great. I really like what you said about the dialog. I'm kind of on like a Regency cake, almost against my will this week.
00;22;56;23 - 00;22;59;28
Unknown
Jessie's.
00;23;00;03 - 00;23;27;21
Unknown
Novel is also Regency. I'm also in preparation for oh, Mitch, I talk about this. Yet the foreshadowing in preparation for something else that we're doing with this podcast. I'm reading another Regency romance. Should we? Should we just talk about it? I don't know. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I get out there. So we're going to start to do Author Spotlights this next week and will probably be the episode after this.
00;23;27;23 - 00;23;56;20
Unknown
I will be introducing Keelin Shafer, who writes Regency Rims, and she's really good. And then I watch Pride and Prejudice, the one with Kiera Knightley. So good, so good. So I've had like that for for things pulling me into Regency this week. And that's something I noticed with With Pride and Jane Austen, obviously, like, she's freaking master and she lived in the the actual time period, which helps as we've talked about.
00;23;56;22 - 00;24;20;21
Unknown
But that subtext you're talking about that that is so prevalent. And so I loved it. Like almost everything that Kiera Knightley said as Elizabeth, I was like, oh, love it. Not just because she is extremely attractive. She's not even my favorite sister. Mary is a lot of fun. I really like a lot of screen time in that version, but I think, didn't they come up?
00;24;20;29 - 00;24;41;06
Unknown
There's a new TV show where she gets. Yes, my wife was telling me about it. They've got a new version. What's it on? Well, it's about Mary. Like it's it's like a spin off, like PBS or something or BBC. Who was it? Was it Amazon or was it BBC? Well, if it's Amazon, I don't know. I just I just keep seeing clips of it looks really good.
00;24;41;09 - 00;25;08;04
Unknown
My wife says it's BBC, CBC. That makes sense. I'll check that out. It's on BritBox through Amazon. That's where that's where she found it. Okay. Oh, and editor coming out okay. Sorry. You're like I don't to add on to to me kind of living in the time period. I've also started watching. There's a fairly new young Sherlock show on Prime, which is really good, but it's not quite the same.
00;25;08;05 - 00;25;31;10
Unknown
Right? Anyway. Right, right. Where was I going with that dialog? Yeah, take notes. JK basically I thought I've also thought about yes, that's where Jane Austen collection back there. I've thought about making a resource and posting it on my blog and just having it be like 100 words that should not be used in your Regency novel. Yeah, you can't say vibe.
00;25;31;13 - 00;25;49;25
Unknown
I think you can say by at least not in the same way, and going kind of into like the historicity of some of the words that we use. And when they actually became into came into use and what they meant back in Regency times if they were. But so you're going to publish an Oxford Dictionary of like, the etymology of words, essentially.
00;25;49;27 - 00;26;12;00
Unknown
Yeah, just a 26 volume. Okay. Basically that would be great. I think like because I'm reading so many Regency stuff right now and like sometimes that's like I read the word like, wow. I'm like, I don't know if that belongs. I don't think they would. So I might be wrong. That's why I haven't done my research yet. JK so don't don't, don't.
00;26;12;03 - 00;26;26;16
Unknown
To to aid in that. We were Crystal. My wife was watching. I don't remember what show she was watching. She was getting to ready ready to watch.
00;26;26;18 - 00;26;46;20
Unknown
I think it was a Jane Austen adaptation. Okay. No no no no no, there's a guy. Okay. It's the guy that wrote down to Nabi. Oh, yeah. Or the. And he talked about another author that was a contemporary of Jane Austen. And he's got a funny last night, Anthony Trollope.
00;26;46;22 - 00;27;11;07
Unknown
And and the show that he, that he's doing based off of, off of this guy's books is Doctor Thorne Thorne with an E at the end because sounds so familiar. And he talks about, like, this guy, the brief little introduction that I caught, he mentions that this guy really like he was in, in like he wrote in the time period, like that's when he was writing.
00;27;11;09 - 00;27;34;19
Unknown
And like I said, contemporary of Jane Austen and his books aren't as famous, but they're he he was a fairly prolific author for that time. So as a point of research, because I'm going to be hopefully picking up some of his stuff, if you are genuinely going to be putting together a don't use these words or here's the better words, there's another.
00;27;34;20 - 00;28;01;22
Unknown
There's another source for you to be like words you should use instead. That might be a separate a separate resource to use number one source for information on that topic. It's going to be your blog, that article 100 words Not to use. Yes, because I think it's I think it's just such an easy. And again, we've talked about this writing in a previous time period is so difficult because we're so enmeshed in our own language.
00;28;01;24 - 00;28;23;22
Unknown
So you're going to get away. You guys are going to have so many things, bad things to say. I've given up on, you know, I'm just kidding. Fair, fair. But yeah, yeah, same same thing you have. You have a kind of why am I talking about. Great. I was talking about JK but anyway, you kind of have a different problem where you are in a different world.
00;28;23;22 - 00;28;44;11
Unknown
So you could I could say in a way. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean you could if you wanted to, it probably wouldn't work super well. But I mean, obviously not that example, but you have a little bit more leeway. Whereas like JK and Kim again, even though they're still I guess JK you're also writing in a different world, but you're kind of more.
00;28;44;18 - 00;29;10;13
Unknown
But I'm really trying to nail that. Yeah. That feeling. And so I have while yes, as writing in a different world, I do have leeway. I have less than somebody like gray who is not necessarily trying to nail a specific era in his approach. To be fair, JK, when it comes to diction, I didn't notice anything amiss with your dialog.
00;29;10;14 - 00;29;17;27
Unknown
I think that was, at least for me, that was spot on. That's a huge relief because that's hard.
00;29;18;00 - 00;29;40;29
Unknown
All the time. Yeah, I seriously will. There are times where I will, I will, I'll write a paragraph and I will pause, which I don't usually do, and go back and check it and think, did I use any of my hero unit words? Did I use any of my Collins or case files? One fortress tier? Yeah, it's like, did I am I throwing modernism in there?
00;29;40;29 - 00;30;03;08
Unknown
So you guys honestly like you guys? You guys are working too hard, right? Contemporary. So much easier. Anyway, would you guys be interested since we're already on this kick? I have a I have I actually dabbled in this myself, Jake. It was like a contemporary. It's like basically about this child who, since she was like a baby, only read like Austin and Bronte.
00;30;03;09 - 00;30;25;13
Unknown
All this and sewer addiction is just ridiculous. And she's talking to other kindergartners and then she becomes an adult. Throughout the course of the story, I only wrote like ten chapters of this, but that might be something fun to just drop on the Patreon. You know, if anything, that would be good. Well, the the. So funny thing is, when I was in third, fourth and fifth grade, well, more fourth and fifth grade.
00;30;25;13 - 00;30;54;10
Unknown
So I went from reading grade level to I started I of the world in fourth grade. Oh, and I started Anne McCaffrey at around the same time. And so I read all of the Pern books that were available, and I read all of the Wheel of Time that was available between fourth and sixth grade, so I spoke very different because of all the stuff I was reading.
00;30;54;11 - 00;31;21;14
Unknown
What a nerd. And so my age backward, I thought, hasn't quite. Yeah. So my older sister, one of my older sisters, would get mad at me when I would use words that that I read that I knew how to use. And so, yeah, I kind of know what that's like. It's funny, I wish I could meet fourth grade you, but that would be so entertaining and enlightening.
00;31;21;16 - 00;31;51;03
Unknown
Yeah, he's he was a he was a weird kid before the legend. There was Jake, little Jake. We lose Tyler entirely. Nope. There he is. He's back. Whoa. We were doing so good to. We had such a good run of no, no, no technical. Oh, well, no, we need a name like you're traveling the ways or something. Yeah, I like what they went traveling the ways.
00;31;51;05 - 00;32;24;04
Unknown
That was. That is perfect. We were talking with the time. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. You're just talking about how big of a nerd you were growing up. Basically. Very good. Basically. All right. Shall I finish my critique of thinking? Well, after five rabbit trails, the best rabbit trails. Where was that? Yeah. So again, really good. I like the little things you've added since the last time you read it.
00;32;24;06 - 00;32;45;08
Unknown
Just a little bit on, like what I did, like the first time as well. You make the world feel very big when you introduce like, elves and wolf, which I don't think. I don't know if you introduce wolf at this point in the story, that hasn't changed. Okay. But you make it clear that there is more than just humanity.
00;32;45;08 - 00;32;57;04
Unknown
There's also these other races who are presumably having their own spaces and also intermingling. And so that's really cool.
00;32;57;07 - 00;33;25;27
Unknown
My, my big thing that I wanted to talk about, because your frame narrative is she's looking back at these events, presumably from pretty far in the future, at least several years. Yeah. You you want to be really careful about what details you focus on, because it has to be the details that she would remember. And so the things that she would remember probably need to have a little bit more.
00;33;25;29 - 00;33;48;21
Unknown
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's not a word. Things that make it make it more memorable. Yeah. So like you have like, like the butler and the lawyer, like you spent quite a bit of time describing them and I'm like, did these guys appear again? Like, why does she still remember these guys after so long? Did they really make that big of an impression on here?
00;33;48;24 - 00;34;13;20
Unknown
So that kicked me out just a little bit. There were little things like that. I think you just. And yeah, I saw you already making it. Just I just think about that as you're, as you're writing like why would future Sarah remember this detail in particular. You know, we've I've compared it to name of the wind before. That might be something just to skim through again, just to kind of see as, as covert is telling his story.
00;34;13;25 - 00;34;42;00
Unknown
Like you get a lot of summary because he's just saying like, oh, I was there for lots of months and I studied and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which I think you are going to have because I know we're going to have a pretty big time skip. Yeah, we're going to like our first two years of school are going to be glossed over of I went to school for two years, but even like even like in between like later on and now, like in between the big events, you'll probably want to do more summary than scene.
00;34;42;03 - 00;35;03;12
Unknown
Even though like, like like gray said, I really liked the description of the lawyer. It just felt like a lot for a character who's probably not, honestly. Maybe save it for somebody like, maybe I know we're going to meet the Queen here next chapter. If I remember right, someone in her entourage or something like that. Okay, copy paste that because that's a that's a really good description.
00;35;03;12 - 00;35;07;29
Unknown
It's a great description.
00;35;08;02 - 00;35;15;09
Unknown
Yeah. That's kind of.
00;35;15;11 - 00;35;39;14
Unknown
Yeah, I have, I've got other other other notes as well. Of course I've left you. I'm interested in the her intuition that's pushing her to hire the elf. Have the elephant here intended. I'd want a little bit more there. But I will say this. I have a funny thing that I want to share with our audience. I'm interested in her feeling that the elf should be her attendant.
00;35;39;14 - 00;36;04;04
Unknown
I get a little deeper into that feeling is a little vague for what might be divine. Well, perhaps the natural laws should shift when she receives such revelation. I'm fixing that. Thank you very much. Wait, wait. Does it say that he. That's like. I was like, how did I gloss over that? Nobody's ever going to gloss over that.
00;36;04;07 - 00;36;14;18
Unknown
No, I have fixed that. Thank you very much. I appreciate that, don't you?
00;36;14;21 - 00;36;21;16
Unknown
Oh, man, I do have I do have sort of a reason why that comes up though.
00;36;21;18 - 00;36;53;06
Unknown
If you will indulge me a little bit. So very first book I ever wrote this the second edition. Let's see if I can find it. Okay, so ace is at a crime scene with her, her unit. Let's see here today. So I wanted to describe what it was like, how the power sort of work. So she's been asked to infiltrate a building.
00;36;53;06 - 00;37;14;21
Unknown
So she's flying away from the scene as she left solid ground behind. So this is ace flying. She could feel gravity loosen its hold and the laws of physics rearranged to fit her needs. Because one of the strangest aspects of the exceptional phenomenon, when an exceptional for many generation used their powers, natural laws changed, adapted, or stopped working entirely.
00;37;14;27 - 00;37;43;27
Unknown
Normals never felt the thing, but other exceptions always knew when powers were in use near them. So I'm trying to capture that. That feel of ace can fly. Other exceptions can fly because the laws of physics, gravity itself says, okay, you're special, you get to fly. And so I'm trying like that's where that phrase came from is from this book.
00;37;44;00 - 00;37;49;20
Unknown
And that's.
00;37;49;22 - 00;38;14;01
Unknown
Something I needed to explain a little bit more in detail. One of the times when Jessica's using her powers, or even using her powers to try to capture that same feel, yeah, I think that makes so much more sense to me. Now, after you've read that, that definitely be something like at least once, a book to to reiterate a little bit, I would say, and then with, with this like it does feel like it's more than just intuition.
00;38;14;02 - 00;38;35;18
Unknown
Like she does think it's the 13 distant gods perhaps pushing her and I, I want, I guess, more of a sign than just like a gut instinct. Maybe that is going to that is going to. So.
00;38;35;20 - 00;39;06;26
Unknown
Yes, there is going to be more. It's almost like she has to develop it like a muscle where she has to learn to recognize it. The more she recognizes that, the more she'll start to understand it. And the other so mild. Spoiler alert there are six. I mean, six other 50s called six other people that have a major rating of over 50.
00;39;06;29 - 00;39;31;06
Unknown
And they all have this, this, this divine intuition, I guess, is the best way I can describe it. And they like when they get together, they start realizing it. And as they go through school, they start realizing, and they start developing the sense as it goes along. It's going to be one of the themes of the story is, is they they're called the 13 Distant gods because they interact very little with the world.
00;39;31;09 - 00;39;53;11
Unknown
And the spirits that you'll meet later are sort of there. They have to interpret the will of the gods to the best of their abilities to help their their mages, to help the world. The the 50s get just a slight taste of what the spirits get from the gods, because what they have to do is, is so important.
00;39;53;12 - 00;40;17;19
Unknown
So that's really cool. But maybe just like a little hint about why she thinks that it's the it's it's that. Okay. Yeah. Just make sure that doesn't become like a deus ex machina in your book. That's one of the things I'm working on redoing, because it was getting to that. It was getting to that point where I had written so far and I was like, this is coming across a little too potent.
00;40;17;19 - 00;40;45;22
Unknown
I need to step it. I think the cool thing with prophecies that you get in a lot of books is that people misinterpret them all the time. Yeah, yeah. And I'm going to be clear. Yeah. And I'm, I'm going to avoid it being prophecy so much because it does it does get used a lot. And I use I have prophecy as a power in the Hero Unit series.
00;40;45;25 - 00;41;05;04
Unknown
So I don't want to rely on that, that so much more. It's like I said, divine intuition I guess is the best way of describing it, I like them. Cool. Do you have any other questions for SGC?
00;41;05;07 - 00;41;11;22
Unknown
I did, but it must not have been important because I forgot it.
00;41;11;25 - 00;41;18;04
Unknown
Yeah, I can't, I can't think of anything.
00;41;18;06 - 00;41;42;02
Unknown
No. Okay. Are you giving me? Yeah. By the way, I did look up who left that comment about Kim. And it was at CCBC. The. That's probably why I thought it was a baby, because I misread it, but thank you. I'm assuming it's a woman and she's left out the comments on her stuff before, so I appreciate you.
00;41;42;05 - 00;42;17;16
Unknown
Are you sure it's not just JC commenting about himself using a different account? That's not something I would do. We're we're above that, aren't we? Yeah. Anyway, My turn. Yeah. Q future. Tyler. Hello? Future Tyler here. Context for this week. I gave the guys two scenes today. One is from AJ's perspective, and he is finding the book that Stan's in.
00;42;17;17 - 00;42;42;18
Unknown
Nan hid the magic spellbook that you're not supposed to have. It's a little bit like the wondering. And that's going to draw you in and correct you. So he found that the next scene was from Warren's perspective. He is verifying whether Layla's dream was real. So he went into the woods. He found the crazy moose, the moose body that had been killed by the rider in the hounds.
00;42;42;18 - 00;43;06;26
Unknown
So we know that Layla's dreams are real. While he's out there, he encounters Isaac, the Ranger. He has an interesting conversation with him. He learns more about what the Wild Hunt was actually like, what the Hunter is actually like, and it's pretty terrifying. Isaac himself has been touched by the hunter, and he bears a mark.
00;43;06;29 - 00;43;26;25
Unknown
They also discovered that the writer is living in the lake. Some of the other people in the book will describe this a little bit later, but now they know where he is. Isaac actually tried to kill the writer because he wants to kill the writer where he can possibly save the hounds. He doesn't want him to find the hounds as well as kill the writer.
00;43;26;25 - 00;43;39;01
Unknown
So. Possible conflict. Lots of good character building for Warren and. Yeah. Hope you guys enjoy.
00;43;39;04 - 00;43;48;00
Unknown
All right. Jake, I believe you were up first. All right. So.
00;43;48;02 - 00;44;17;20
Unknown
Start off the. I liked both of these scenes. They they feel really impactful as scenes go. The overall narrative was served really, really well by what you wrote. I hear a buck. And in general, I hear a buck coming. Yeah, well, and in general, it works there. I will say they're not the smoothest pieces you've ever submitted.
00;44;17;21 - 00;44;44;23
Unknown
There were some. There were some sections and dialog and or not dialog, but just some lines that I was like, that feels really stilted, unnatural. And I tried to tag the ones I could. I do, I will say, meet her old lady friends for breakfast. That was hilarious. I'm like, yeah, that's that's exactly. That's perfect.
00;44;44;25 - 00;45;06;16
Unknown
I like how. So you have this scene where he's like, where AJ is, is trying to figure out what why why he's not trying to leave. Why? Why something calling him back. And he says maybe it was his intuition telling him something was wrong. So he gets this idea that, okay, I need to trust my gut. But then when his gut is proven wrong, he's like, wait a minute.
00;45;06;17 - 00;45;28;13
Unknown
This is Nan we're talking about. She's not going to get hurt in her apartment. That's stupid. And so I like that he's trusting his intuition, but at the same time, being fooled by that trust you're setting up. Well, I mean, you set up what happens really, really well with that. That, I mean, because AJ is the kind of kid that would think I got to trust my intuition.
00;45;28;14 - 00;45;47;09
Unknown
I got to trust that I got to trust my gut. And then he gets fooled and he picks up the book. I am so glad that that that came back, that you paid off that line, that Starnes says. It's not like it's going to give your kid cancer or your grandkid cancer. And it's like, please let that pay off the way.
00;45;47;10 - 00;46;10;05
Unknown
Yep, it paid off exactly how I wanted it to pay off. So, sometimes it's really good to give the reader exactly what they look for from a scene and to have AJ go in there, find the secret stairs, go down and get the book when he shouldn't have been able to do any of that pays off that that worry, that line, that all of it really, really well.
00;46;10;05 - 00;46;32;29
Unknown
So good job that scene. Like I said, it just I would give it a few more read Theroux's because a lot there were sections of it that felt really stilted, really awkward, awkward phrases and then into the Warren scene, which went a lot smoother. The writing was a lot smoother. I really like Isaac as a character. If you kill him.
00;46;33;01 - 00;46;40;06
Unknown
I think it will be hugely impactful. I will just.
00;46;40;08 - 00;47;01;06
Unknown
I don't know, I mean, because I look at him as a character and I'm like, it makes absolute sense for him to be the guy that dies and not say, you're going to kill him. I'm not saying you have to kill him, but if there's a character that goes down that's not a villain. Isaac is the guy that kind of fits that that mold that we see.
00;47;01;08 - 00;47;26;17
Unknown
I love the fact that you give him and Warren a chance to interact, because he feels like the guy that genuinely needs to answer Warren's questions, that genuinely needs to meet his concerns, because in a way, he is Warren just older. I just got freaking chills when he said that. Jesse. That's great. You said that. Have you been reading my mind, man?
00;47;26;19 - 00;47;30;02
Unknown
No, I'm.
00;47;30;05 - 00;47;54;15
Unknown
Like, I legit like, I can pull a Gary Vee and show you my goosebumps because that's like. That's like my that's almost like my game plan. Yeah, well, you're doing it really well. Like you've nailed it because this scene set that relationship up beautifully. The way like the way you introduce Isaac in the, the, the Council of Elrond, seen, for lack of a better word, when they're trying to sell Warren to be.
00;47;54;22 - 00;48;13;24
Unknown
Hey, can you be our spy? And he's just kind of there. He doesn't really do a lot. You get the sense that there's more, but you get the sense that there's more to him than that just by your descriptions. And then you feed us, you again. You pay off that description in this scene of the kind of person that Isaac is.
00;48;14;01 - 00;48;58;14
Unknown
I like their interaction. I like the way he's he talks to Warren. I like the way he he answers his questions but doesn't treat him like a kid. But I mean, it's it's. Yeah, it's a really good, well-written, well approached scene. Yeah. Are there some awkward spots? Sure. And I think I marked some of them. I like the, the, the scene that really stuck out is the back and forth about ends justifying the means and how you put that in there, and you put it in just long enough and you didn't come to a definitive answer either.
00;48;58;16 - 00;49;09;13
Unknown
Like you don't you don't spoon feed Warren his his answer or his his morals.
00;49;09;16 - 00;49;38;15
Unknown
There's one place, so kind of it felt kind of odd. Isaac says. If you're going to be out in the woods, you know, get yourself one of these shows, them the iron desk. And then he says, further down, what are you doing out in the woods anyway? Haven't you figured out it's not safe out here yet? Almost like he's trying to simultaneously say, okay, if you're going to do this, do this, but you really shouldn't be out out here at all.
00;49;38;15 - 00;49;51;23
Unknown
Why are you out here? It almost feels contradictory. I don't know. And maybe that's what you're going for. Because sometimes we do that. Even as adults, we contradict ourselves.
00;49;51;25 - 00;50;21;03
Unknown
And I love the fact that you have the. Isaac used up his allotment of words for the day line. That I've read that in so many books, and it I don't care how many times I read it or hear it. It is a perfect description for these characters. So good job. Thanks. That's the writer continues to be creepy and.
00;50;21;05 - 00;50;28;21
Unknown
Let's see here trying to remember if there was one thing specifically I wanted to pick out, I.
00;50;28;23 - 00;50;52;23
Unknown
I hear it is so mentions starting seeing the flowers only a few months ago, and I can't remember if you would mention that timeline previously or not, how long the flowers have been out here, because I for some reason, and this could just be me reading too much into it. I felt like they'd been here longer than they were.
00;50;52;26 - 00;51;05;09
Unknown
So a brief mention of that somewhere else. Will will probably help keep the reader on track of how how you want this timeline to be playing out.
00;51;05;12 - 00;51;32;26
Unknown
That's a good thing to check. And then I don't think there's anything. No, that was that was those are sort of the major points again, really well written, like plot wise, story wise, structure wise, there's some stuff to fix. But the first draft, I mean realistically. So that's you'll be able to pick that you'll be able to fix that stuff no problem.
00;51;32;26 - 00;51;58;16
Unknown
So yeah I really like this section. It's really good. Appreciate it. Great. Yeah yeah. Actually had to agree with a lot of what Jake said. So you have these two chapters. Yeah two chapters here which essentially sandwich two different scenes. Just kind of accomplishing the first one. Some follow up from the fact that the book was hidden in kind of a weird place.
00;51;58;16 - 00;52;19;10
Unknown
So I like both of these scenes. I did have a few just kind of little concerns. Just this one, this one word in particular. I've highlighted it. You probably know what it is in the first page. It sounds like it could be a different word, so I'm not going to say it. But it is an awkward word choice.
00;52;19;10 - 00;52;28;14
Unknown
So it's in the second paragraph. Niggling sensation. Is that the one. Yes. That's it.
00;52;28;16 - 00;52;49;18
Unknown
It's more just that it feels awkward. You know, just I have to stop and think about what that word means, and I yeah, I understand the sentiment, but might want to consider that okay. For some reason when AJ looks up the stairs, I get this like mental composition of a trombone shot like Vertigo, where it's like something is up the stairs.
00;52;49;18 - 00;53;12;21
Unknown
So I got the instantly the sense of suspense like, oh, what's up the stairs? And this is before I remembered, you know, what he's going to find or had an intuition as to what he was going to find. This chapter secret tunnel. Yeah, yeah. So I enjoy that whole bit. The fact that AJ didn't even think it was strange how he knew exactly where the tome was located.
00;53;12;21 - 00;53;34;24
Unknown
I wrote in the comments, my precious. So that was awesome. All that came across really clearly the fact that Warren excuse me, that AJ is like, you know, it's not actually that strange that Nan has a secret tunnel. This is pretty normal. Like she's a strange lady. She's got stuff to hide, I believe it. So all that was really great.
00;53;34;27 - 00;53;57;07
Unknown
Not really any major issues. And then jumping into the Warren scene, which is kind of the meat of this section. I also loved Isaac. We were introduced Isaac previously, and I know that you had made attempts in some of your revisions to kind of name drop him a little bit earlier to sprinkle references to him, which I appreciate because he's a guy that's worth building up.
00;53;57;09 - 00;54;20;14
Unknown
I feel like he's this kind of grumpy, crusty old man who also has this layer of wisdom underneath. He's kind of a he's just crusty Obi-Wan. He's the mentor figure that Warren needed the whole time, the guy that can speak at just the right frequency, that Warren can understand, that can ask questions. You know, he doesn't hold his cards too close to the vest, but he's not an open book either.
00;54;20;14 - 00;54;39;09
Unknown
And he's he's kind of that balance between man who is like, okay, you're a child, so I'm not going to tell you anything. And his mom, whom like, I'm really not going to tell you anything, you just go to school and come straight back and, you know, and the sheriff who was like, okay, I'll tell you something. You know, if you do something for me, I'll scratch your back if you scratch my back.
00;54;39;09 - 00;54;56;19
Unknown
And so Warren's been pinball lying around back and forth between the Scooby Gang and these adults who know what they're talking about, but. Or sharing their information selectively. And he finally finds this adult out there in the Middle Forest who's actually doing something, presumably, since he's out there, you know, who's willing to talk to him, even if he's doesn't have much to say.
00;54;56;19 - 00;55;22;19
Unknown
And for what it's worth, because I know you're wondering who I pictured him to look like. Which celebrity you probably. You probably never seen Frazier, I've seen clips of it. He had his dad in the show. This. This old guy, John Mahoney. I pictured him to play this character initially, and then I pictured Clint Eastwood. I'm still going back and forth speaking of pinball, but yeah, totally enjoy that.
00;55;22;22 - 00;55;43;02
Unknown
You also have this interesting problem, Tyler, because you're so good at making us understand what makes a certain character tick. Like, I think I gave the example with a Warren in a previous chapter where when Warren says something that doesn't feel Warren like, like my radar goes off, my detector goes off because I'm like, this isn't something Warren would say or do.
00;55;43;03 - 00;56;06;05
Unknown
He's smarter than this. And I had just a few instances, even in this chapter of Isaac, some little lines of dialog like, I don't know if that's sounds like something that Isaac would say, you know, in my presumption, having read all of five paragraphs worth of his dialog. Right. But one of those was the exact line that Jake brought up, which I found interesting.
00;56;06;08 - 00;56;14;18
Unknown
Let me see if I can find that here. Do do do do.
00;56;14;21 - 00;56;42;09
Unknown
Oh, this isn't the one. But the ends justify the means conversation. There was a line in there that I felt was a little on the nose as well. Okay. Oh, and here's the line that Jake brought up. Haven't you figured out it's not safe here yet? I feel like Isaac and Warren instantly have this connection where they know what each other is about, and I think it instantly gets a read on Warren like he is a sharp kid, so he doesn't really need to to spoon him, spoon feed him, to take him by the hand.
00;56;42;09 - 00;57;06;24
Unknown
I feel like at this point in their conversation, maybe he would have said he would have offered a sarcastic barb something a little bit more than this. At this point, it felt a little on the nose. Yeah. So not to exacerbate that point too much. And then you have your son of a biscuit line. Although you didn't say biscuit, you said a different word.
00;57;06;24 - 00;57;29;19
Unknown
I'm so sorry. So, I don't know. I think you've used up your allotted amount of PG 13 words. You might have to go to an R rating if you use two anymore. So maybe doesn't dropped an F bomb yet. He's fine. Oh is that how it works or is this one I think yeah. Yeah. Well you it's definitely one F-bomb per per year.
00;57;29;23 - 00;57;37;01
Unknown
At least it's not the 80s rating system. I don't see Mel Gibson's boat anywhere. And that's great. Yeah.
00;57;37;03 - 00;58;02;05
Unknown
Speaking of interesting visuals, when the the writer comes up out of the lake. I love that description. Let's see if I can find it here. Water streamed from the undead creatures coming out of cavities that wouldn't have existed on any living being that is so evocative, so descriptive, I love it, I could picture it. It was nasty, much like Mel Gibson's took us.
00;58;02;07 - 00;58;18;03
Unknown
Yeah, I agree with Jake's kind of sentiment regarding the flowers popping a few months ago. I actually liked that because it seems to up the stakes for me. But I do agree it might have been nice to kind of maybe mention during the Council of Elrond or some other convenient place to kind of or hint at it.
00;58;18;03 - 00;58;34;19
Unknown
At least that's a recent phenomenon. But I like the fact that we're getting this official confirmation here, like, oh no, this is a new thing. Something is waking up. There's a threat here that's bigger than what we faced, so that's great.
00;58;34;22 - 00;58;57;05
Unknown
Yeah. Overall, just, great. Couple of chapters. I love the pacing. I think whenever you have a chapter like this, that's very dialog heavy and very just like two characters going back and forth, you need to they need to be strong interactions. They need to be interesting interactions. Otherwise it's not going to be able to hold its weight in the middle of all these cool action sequences and plot developments that you're writing.
00;58;57;05 - 00;59;18;22
Unknown
So I think you accomplish that. Well, that's something I know I struggle with. I tend to speed through these these dialogs between characters so I can get to the good stuff and throw grenades and stuff. So I appreciate your ability to do that. Well, that's definitely an art form and part of our craft that I know I would like to get better at any that.
00;59;18;25 - 00;59;42;21
Unknown
Yeah. Any questions for the two of us? Well, neither of you talked about the the big to me at least the kind of the biggest foreshadowing slash tone building I tried to do with this, that last conversation they had about the Hunter. How did that land for you guys?
00;59;42;23 - 01;00;10;08
Unknown
So for me, it was, though, when you said, the Hunter, you're talking about the Wild Hunt, right? So having read The Dresden Files specifically, but other things that talk about The Wild Hunt, you talk about hounds, the writer and the hunter and I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. Like, to me, it felt natural having having read, you know, knowing a little bit more about folklore.
01;00;10;10 - 01;00;45;22
Unknown
It definitely like it gives. So the way it was presented, it gives me the sense of there are these people are stuck between two titanic forces that want to clash. It'll be interesting to see where that goes. That's how I viewed it. Really? Yeah. I'm actually glad that you mentioned that. That was another element that I enjoyed. You kind of invoke this guy, the Hunter, and we're scared of him as the reader because someone like Isaac, who's grizzled and experience, is scared and he's trying to hide it.
01;00;45;23 - 01;01;05;27
Unknown
The it's not quite the shaking in his hand, but the tenseness that comes into his voice. The fact that he's a little bit scared and very angry, like Warren catches little hints of that, and he kind of recites a little bit of the history of, you know, folks being captured in All Hallows Eve. And we've gotten kind of a sort of a dry version of that, maybe from Bradley.
01;01;05;27 - 01;01;23;29
Unknown
But now we're getting the like, this is the real story. This is what people were facing. And this is why we we swallowed our pride and made a sacrifice and did what we did. Was it right? Was it wrong? I don't know, but somebody had to do something which is also very Warren like. Which raises Stacey's point about him becoming Isaac.
01;01;24;01 - 01;01;45;15
Unknown
But no, I enjoyed that. I am looking forward with my popcorn to two monsters fighting. Let them fight. It's interesting. I don't know if that's going to happen, if humanity is going to side with one monster or the other, or find a path in between, I'm frankly okay with any of those options as long as I get to see monster action.
01;01;45;22 - 01;02;08;24
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, it was good. It builds. We'll have to wait. That's book two. Yeah, I and I will say like, it doesn't feel out of place. Like it feels like a natural progression based on what you've given us so far. So I don't again, caveat I'm not every reader. I don't think the readers are going to be like, wait, now we've got another one.
01;02;08;26 - 01;02;31;24
Unknown
It feels like it's part of the the story. Yeah, because something that Brandon Sanderson talks about in his writing lectures is that one way to kind of build your middle? Or maybe it wasn't might actually be out of my old crater, or it might be both. But one way you can do your middle is have your villain, your antagonist be growing in presence.
01;02;31;25 - 01;03;14;21
Unknown
And I've I've mentioned the hunter, and we know that he's probably not a good thing, but having more explicit like this is what he was like. I want the building, the dreads, basically. Because that's what like he's working, really. He's working on that. Yeah. And I think that I think this especially, you know, when, when Isaac rolls up his sleeve and shows what, like evidence, physical evidence on someone that this is a bad thing is going to help that conflict that Warren's probably going to end up with over what do I do?
01;03;14;21 - 01;03;37;23
Unknown
I want to help these people, but I don't want this to happen again kind of idea. And I like how you describe like you describe the hunter as a force of nature. You don't reason with the force of nature. You don't negotiate with a force of nature. You prepare yourself for it and then you hide. Well, that's a line that you said, right?
01;03;37;23 - 01;04;04;17
Unknown
That was good. I was like, where did I read that? Was that a Jim Butcher book? No. Yes. I read that somewhere this week, I enjoyed it. Yeah. So I also, I forgot to mention this, but I like how the the aftermath is still part of the town that they just didn't, you know, get on with their lives.
01;04;04;19 - 01;04;24;15
Unknown
They've changed. They've changed Halloween. They've changed how they do things because of because of what happened. So now awesome. I appreciate you guys. I think that was all the questions I really had.
01;04;24;18 - 01;05;08;14
Unknown
Okie doke. So Q feature gray what's up guys. It's future gray. Here it is 330 in the morning as I record this amazing context video. And I'm sure the quality will reflect that. So in the chapter I submitted to the guys this week, we find some bad shenanigans going on. We spend some more time with our central villain here, Niles, who is essentially this kind of ancient power that has inhabited this bronze wood vessel, which is kind of like this golem esque creature, as in a giant suit of walking armor.
01;05;08;16 - 01;05;23;25
Unknown
And we get to see some interactions between this guy and one of his subordinates as he kind of toys with him and discusses some of his plans for us and does a little bit of villain monologuing. So I hope you enjoy and hope the guys enjoy.
01;05;23;28 - 01;05;31;12
Unknown
And I think I'm going first. Yes, sir. Awesome.
01;05;31;14 - 01;05;58;28
Unknown
Very well done. Lots of lots of creep factor in this one. I really like that you brought Niles back, that we're seeing more of what he's doing. Again, speaking about making your villain grow in in both presence and power. I like that he has a vendetta. It seems like he has a vendetta with Gil that seems very in character for Gil.
01;05;58;29 - 01;06;21;17
Unknown
That he would be enemies with a monster. Old, old one, like this godlike creature. Makes a lot of sense for him. For his character, I think. So I like that a lot. Very curious about what's going on with stills. Did he just die that he get knocked out of the INS head?
01;06;21;19 - 01;06;28;14
Unknown
Lots of lots of really good, really good elements.
01;06;28;17 - 01;06;51;04
Unknown
I want to talk about Niles. Is that how you say it? It's been a while since we've talked about probably, you know, we were just talking about the Hunter. So I've been thinking a lot about how do you convey a godlike creature? Because that's that's the level of power I'm assuming for for for Niles. Is that is that what you're thinking?
01;06;51;04 - 01;07;13;05
Unknown
He's not just like, a little a little slum? No, he's not like a peon. He's a god that doesn't have the power that he had in a previous generation, but is working to gain it back. But he used to have that much power, I would assume. Yeah, yeah. I feel like his voice isn't quite conveying that level of.
01;07;13;08 - 01;07;22;17
Unknown
Not just the level of power, but but what kind of comes with that power? The authority and the just.
01;07;22;20 - 01;07;47;03
Unknown
Man? This is this is this is really hard to to write characters like this because they don't really exist. Not not saying that God doesn't exist, but we don't have, like, God like creatures on, on our planet. But his voice just isn't quite conveying his level of otherness. I guess he feels too much like a he feels too much like a person.
01;07;47;06 - 01;08;02;19
Unknown
Yeah, I guess, which isn't usually a bad thing when you're writing. But in this case, I feel like this monster needs to feel more like a monster. Like you have one line, where he's talking to the the the.
01;08;02;22 - 01;08;29;15
Unknown
However you pronounce it, like that's, and he says, I bear news and that's like, that's like what a servant would say. Like, if you're bearing news, you're like a messenger, you're a servant, you're you're you're doing a favor for somebody. And I don't see this guy doing that. He has information. Does he really need to share it with this guy does.
01;08;29;17 - 01;08;56;08
Unknown
And he's definitely not going to say that he he his almost you know what I mean? It almost makes him feel like a messenger boy. And there were other instances of that where it just doesn't feel like he's being aloof enough. And I'm not, I'm not. I don't want to tell you how to write him. Like, it could just be his his personality, but it didn't convey the sense of monstrosity that we kind of got in the last section that we saw with him.
01;08;56;10 - 01;09;16;23
Unknown
Does that make sense? Yeah, something. Can I ask you a question? So I think it was probably a few paragraphs after it, the fact that he's kind of enjoys playing mind games, trying to set him up, like how a, how a cat kind of like, enjoys batting and smiles back and forth like it doesn't kill it right away.
01;09;16;24 - 01;09;33;29
Unknown
So he's kind of enjoying playing with this like steward of his like, oh, I bear news. Like he's kind of taking this tone that's a little bit ironic, but it doesn't seem like that landed. Yeah, not not for me at least. And I like that he I like that he's like that cat, that cat and mouse kind of thing.
01;09;33;29 - 01;09;51;06
Unknown
I think that is very in character. I really like that, that paragraph actually. But there's just like sometimes he like over shares a little bit like this guy doesn't really need to know more than he needs to know. You know what I mean?
01;09;51;08 - 01;10;12;26
Unknown
I don't really know how to tell you how to fix it, but that was my next question. So, you know, we already mentioned The Dresden Files. There's a lot of characters in The Dresden Files that kind of fit the bill for for godlike creatures. Mab Mab is really, really good. Yeah. If you haven't read, you're you're not into the Dresden Files yet, right?
01;10;12;27 - 01;10;31;11
Unknown
Great. Nope. Okay. You want to get someone who who I think almost fits this personality you're shooting for perfectly when you enter, when you encounter the winter Queen Mab.
01;10;31;13 - 01;11;02;06
Unknown
I think she'll fit what? You're what you're shooting for. I can't give you a lot because you can kind of make, like, an amalgamation. Like your own version of this. Ishmael in Wheel of Time. A lot of the forsaken actually will fit this bill. Yeah. Odiham in especially the last two. As much as I dislike the fifth one.
01;11;02;08 - 01;11;30;09
Unknown
Whole vibe in the last two books of Storm Light Archive. There we go. Yeah, most most of the most of the shards in Sanderson's. I don't know, I forget how much of San Jacinto you read, but a lot of the. You get some godlike creatures in there, even, like, you know, Voldemort. Like, you could kind of take some tips from him and how he treats his underlings.
01;11;30;11 - 01;11;55;07
Unknown
Did I freeze? Yeah. Yeah. Gosh dang it. Keep going. This is good. So how much Lovecraft have you read? Out of curiosity, the color from space. A couple other shorts. So. When it comes to the old ones and the vibe of.
01;11;55;09 - 01;12;13;19
Unknown
Nilus, I. I would try to actually read Catholic horror. Red hook, especially, is another really good one. To convey that.
01;12;13;21 - 01;12;45;21
Unknown
That terror of things unknown horror at Red hook. Yeah, I believe that's. Let me double check. I don't know how I have not read more Lovecraft, to be honest. That's like my bread and butter. As far as creepy factor. Nice pick that up. But Barnes and Noble, I believe. Yeah. Barnes and Noble edition. Let's see here. Did it.
01;12;45;24 - 01;12;55;09
Unknown
I want to make sure. Welcome back. I get the right one. The right name.
01;12;55;12 - 01;13;07;26
Unknown
Yeah. I can always get the title from you after to JK. Yeah, another one in the comments. And this one is.
01;13;07;29 - 01;13;15;00
Unknown
This one's a little a little different. The shadow over ins mouth.
01;13;15;02 - 01;13;23;14
Unknown
For conveying weird and creep.
01;13;23;16 - 01;13;39;19
Unknown
Yeah. Dear listener, leave in the comment what books should read so he can refine his his really powerful a bad guy. Yeah, yeah. Sounds awesome. Oh. He's do.
01;13;39;22 - 01;14;07;17
Unknown
Okay sweet. Appreciate all those recommendations. I'll just need some more reading time too. I was about to say, you know, with your copious amounts of fruit and you're not far off. Great. I'm just like, there's there's some things that aren't quite hitting. And I think it's it's almost like a mindset you have to be able to set in, step into I, I saw a funny I've been a lot more on TikTok recently, and I saw one author talk about like she's finally writing in like a dual, a dual POV book.
01;14;07;18 - 01;14;40;23
Unknown
And so it feels like she's what was the where she used she's, you know, she's kind of switching between the personalities as she's writing. And so, like, she's got dissociative personality disorder something, something like that. Yeah. And you really kind of have to if you're going to be writing in different POVs. Yeah. Yeah. That was kind of yeah, that was kind of my main thing that I wanted to talk about because I think as, as we we're going to see more of, of, of Niles, presumably obviously very important character.
01;14;40;23 - 01;15;20;26
Unknown
So I really want to help you get him as scary and other and cool and all of it as, as you can basically. Cool, cool. Jacey. All right. Overall like with Tyler, good job, good work, good scenes. Important to the plot, important to moving things forward. I feel like we're getting to this scene where we're getting to a part of the book where the overarching narrative is becoming a lot clearer.
01;15;20;29 - 01;15;37;01
Unknown
Between this scene with Gil and and and company, and then the scene with Niklas. So.
01;15;37;03 - 01;16;02;21
Unknown
I like so one of the things that I was hoping you were going to capitalize on is neon slip up in last chapter, where he actually verbalize stills his name, and Gil picks up on that and asks him about it and has pointed out that, yeah, I realized I was talking to somebody different when we had dinner. Tyler froze again.
01;16;02;22 - 01;16;18;15
Unknown
Anyway, yeah, so I'm glad you pointed that out. I'm glad that he caught that, because that seems like something that Gil would have caught and and and picked up on. So.
01;16;18;17 - 01;16;48;29
Unknown
Did that feel like enough in the moment that he acknowledged it was like, hey, tell me about that. Like that. He didn't press it too much further. Yeah. Because that's like one of the things that I can't I can't as it sits right now, I don't see Gil pushing it unless it becomes a gets to a point where he feels like the situation warrants him pushing it, where they're in a situation where he has to know that information, and then he's going to push for the revelation.
01;16;49;01 - 01;17;14;15
Unknown
Otherwise he's going to ask. And if they don't, if they don't give the answer, he just doesn't come across as someone that does that. He says, yeah, I know, but I'm going to leave it to you to tell me or to confirm it. There's a there's a thing I want you to consider, and this is going to affect your overall narrative.
01;17;14;17 - 01;18;01;28
Unknown
So neon views, religion, faith very, very skeptically. He was a very negative light toward it. So something I want you to consider doing is emphasizing his view on memory magic being superior. If he does, we get the sense there that there are other magics, that there are other things out there. And it strikes me that he would view what he studies memory, magic and the chain as superior to all the others.
01;18;02;00 - 01;18;29;02
Unknown
And then it gives another justification to why he sort of brushes off a lot of what Gil says or what other people might do, because I'm studying the superior magic, and whether it's true or not in the system is irrelevant. It's what he views to give him that, that separation and that that sense of superiority. Yeah, it's it's like that old Han Solo quote.
01;18;29;03 - 01;18;50;01
Unknown
The hokey religions and old blasters are no good for old. You know what I'm trying to say? Yeah. They're no good for us. No match for good. Blaster at your side, right? Really? Bumble that and the. No. That's great. The funny thing is, is I wish I knew which manual this was in. One of the old fencing manuals almost has a line that is almost identical to that.
01;18;50;02 - 01;19;28;13
Unknown
When guns started coming onto the battlefield, one of the masters said something almost identical to the Obi-Wan quote. And this was back in the the 15 1600s. So nice. It holds true. Which, because you've talked to I think you've talked about the same annual before. So you really to figure out which one of those 20 years I don't I waktu or org w I, you know or you can go all go there for all your historical fencing needs and they probably have the answers hopefully anyway.
01;19;28;15 - 01;19;52;25
Unknown
And also so it would also set up if you have. Speaking of the Him viewing memory magic is superior. It also sets up a crisis moment for him later because he views what he does is superior and and he's running into these times where, yeah, he's getting the crap kicked out of him, but all of a sudden he's not superior anymore.
01;19;52;27 - 01;20;15;22
Unknown
And if he keeps going down this, this path of I'm keep getting the crap kicked out of me, my memory magic isn't stopping this as well as I want is going to come to a crisis point. And he's going to have to question, you know, where am I going? What am I doing? Why? Why is this not working like it has been working?
01;20;15;22 - 01;20;59;24
Unknown
Because you look at the stills that we meet in the very first chapter, very cocky, very arrogant, very confident, very skilled. And now look at me in this chapter where he's demanding answers and not getting them. He's got the crap kicked out of him. He suddenly separated, apparently, from the ability to use memory magic. It I think I think if you take some time to emphasize his view as it being superior, and then we get to this point, I don't again, I don't know what you're planning on his future decisions, but if you give him that extra layer of conflict, that extra layer of personality, that'll make a lot of these things a little
01;20;59;25 - 01;21;31;29
Unknown
bit, well, a little bit more devastating for him. But also it will set up any future changes in attitude and opinion in belief a little bit better. Yeah. No that's that's great. He can like have his own kind of atheist crisis of faith, you know, moment of the soul. Yeah. And that's like that's one of the things like I think you are setting that up really, really well because if, if that's where you're going, what have you, that's, that's a general trajectory.
01;21;32;01 - 01;22;01;11
Unknown
Yeah. And so if you set up. Initially like again, the stills we meet in chapter one is perfectly confident. And Nia needs to have that same level of confidence, especially because he's so cerebral. Like the school boy, he needs to have absolute faith in the superiority of memory magic. And then he starts getting that faith kicked and kicked and kicked and kicked, and then his master even turns on him.
01;22;01;13 - 01;22;36;13
Unknown
And I like the point that the fact that he, he sort of admits that he doesn't view atrium necessarily as his master anymore. His old master, he says, you know, and he's kind of he feels like he's kind of glad to be away from him. So, so having those support structures kicked out from under him as he goes along would be more impactful if we had that set up as a little bit more of his, his what he has faith in, as it were.
01;22;36;16 - 01;22;57;27
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. No. That's awesome. I think that's particularly good. I'm glad that you kind of clued on to that trajectory, but I think that gives me a sense that in the next pass at this next draft, I need to set that up earlier so that it can be more devastating, even here in this moment. Yeah. I was planning on just a little bit of a spoiler paying this off.
01;22;57;28 - 01;23;25;27
Unknown
You know, this his level of devastation and his need, his potential openness to something else because he's so devastated, potentially even in the next chapter. But then Darren Discovery writing like get the tar kicked out of him a little bit more before he's desperate. Yeah. And and so if, if it's going where I think it's going, we've got this part where where Gil he he dispels the barrier first.
01;23;25;28 - 01;23;55;08
Unknown
No. Okay. So he makes the prayer first. So he sort of does he does a religious ritual, then he prays over the area first. I think you want to add in a hint of neon feeling something beyond magic, beyond memory magic beyond the chain, but brushing it off because I'm tired. I'm this, I'm this and this. It's really easy to to brush that kind of stuff off, especially when you're tired.
01;23;55;08 - 01;24;21;05
Unknown
Especially when you've had the crap kicked out of, you know, nothing seems to be going right. He the last thing he wants is to have his faith. Question to how in memory? Magic question. You know, so something to consider. Like I like the interaction with the barrier in this chapter. I know that seems weird, but it's they're able to move the body in and out.
01;24;21;05 - 01;24;46;17
Unknown
It becomes a regular part of what they're doing, but they're still weirdness to it, because, again, they pull the cursed body through and its affects the barrier. But then we see that Gil is able to dispel the barrier just fine. So I liked all of all of that world building, all of that, putting together of of magic systems and ideas.
01;24;46;19 - 01;25;13;07
Unknown
And this line, for some reason struck me once the once everything's clear and a thot NE and they're like, oh crap, where's the body? And Gil turns, where did you lay the body? Like he's just friends. I love Gil as a character. I just love him as a character because he never comes across as negative. Even in a situation where he is completely justified in being negative, he never comes across as such.
01;25;13;07 - 01;25;20;02
Unknown
And I love him as a character in that for that reason.
01;25;20;05 - 01;25;28;26
Unknown
And then the shambling body scene was good. I didn't really have any comments on that.
01;25;28;29 - 01;26;03;18
Unknown
And so I like that. Like I said, you're setting up. We're seeing that things are converging, converging there. I can speak, I so the religious zealots you mentioned have a thing called the Reaper. Is that something that we've encountered previously that we should be with Tyler's book? No. Oh, of course, I'm just checking. No, that that has not been mentioned previously this time, so.
01;26;03;20 - 01;26;26;24
Unknown
All right. That's fine. Did that. How did that land? Curious. Like Niles perception of some other religion, which he knows to be kind of hokey. Like fake, essentially. Like created by one of his companions. I think the way he explains it, no doubt one of his had created the concept. While he had been otherwise occupied, it occupied.
01;26;26;26 - 01;26;52;12
Unknown
Occupied. There we go. I liked it. Like, to me, it feels like there are several of these old ones and they just sort of jockey for power or screw with each other, depending on the century that they're in. And it came across that way, if that's what you're shooting for. That's just me ripping off the forsaken right there.
01;26;52;15 - 01;27;19;23
Unknown
And it had it. Yeah, it 100% had that feel. And it felt like something that is easy to accept for this. It's not like it didn't feel out of place or anything. It landed. I think it just it flows with the narrative. Let's see here.
01;27;19;26 - 01;27;28;21
Unknown
Do I don't think there's anything else that.
01;27;28;23 - 01;27;53;00
Unknown
Let's see. Oh yeah. The salty, pus filled scabs of harried worry. Thank you for making me want to throw up on the description again that you excel at disgusting descriptions. Good job. Well thank you. You guys are my inspiration. You got. I don't know how to take that. I don't know how to take that either. You're so good at writing, you know.
01;27;53;02 - 01;28;21;10
Unknown
Okay. Oh, not because we're disgusting. Inspire you to write disgusting description. You should really try your hand at writing just short cosmic horror, because you have that grasp on it. That Lovecraftian feel of of otherness in a lot of what your descriptions are and how you describe things. And again, I would say that.
01;28;21;13 - 01;28;58;04
Unknown
Maybe with the with nihilist and trying to get him to feel more other mentioning other schemes, other plans, other ideas, they thoughts of pitting his people against each other just because he can like, just like I know the evil overlord list that they came out with and the early 2000 crap. There's another document in Tyler's blog that's something I heard about recently to it's Kim told us about it.
01;28;58;06 - 01;29;05;10
Unknown
Well, mentioned it in the last episode. That's right. I read it when I was.
01;29;05;12 - 01;29;29;27
Unknown
In fourth grade. No, no, it came out pretty early. So he was in his 60s? Yeah, yeah, actually been floating around the internet probably since the early 2000. Like since the internet became a thing. Wow. That is an ancient document. And it's it's so it talks about a lot of things that evil overlords do that you really shouldn't do as an evil overlord.
01;29;29;27 - 01;29;39;04
Unknown
And one of them is cruelty for cruelty sake, essentially like, yeah. And and.
01;29;39;06 - 01;30;03;06
Unknown
And it's less that and it's, it's, it's more doing things just to demonstrate I'm evil. But this is more a human evil overlord, like like the Darth Vader or the Emperor Palpatine. You should look at that list as things that you could probably use to emphasize that nihilist isn't human. He's not a being of human thought, of being, of rational thought.
01;30;03;07 - 01;30;28;16
Unknown
He doesn't. When he looks at a person, he doesn't see a being that he relates to, he sees an ant. Like when I look at a ant, a bug, a caterpillar, a fly, I don't see a thing that I can communicate with that I can relate to, that I can empathize with. It's a bug. And so nihilist is probably on the same lines.
01;30;28;17 - 01;30;54;24
Unknown
He views humans as things that he can play with playthings. And so playing up that like you talk about giving the guy reward and then he gives him the name of the dude that he killed that was his friend. Like that, that felt really on brand for him. And so adding in those other things I think will help encapsulate the otherness that we're trying to get.
01;30;54;27 - 01;31;19;23
Unknown
I'll have to have a ask him to send me that document. That sounds pretty valuable. Yeah, that you can. It's just good to know, know, know about the trope so you can do what you will with them so I can follow them to the letter. Yes, I honestly wanted to write a book where the bad guy followed the tropes to the letter, just to just purely comedically, like just pure comedy.
01;31;19;26 - 01;31;56;01
Unknown
So that might be awesome. Yeah. And I think there's actually one for heroes to like, the things that cliches the hero shouldn't do, too. So. But yeah, otherwise referencing the show heroes. And like what? No, no. But I think there's, I think there's the like the protagonist version, the hero version of the list to but anyway, yeah, I like I said, I like this, I like that you're coming to like ideas are coming out the, the the plot is revealing itself.
01;31;56;02 - 01;32;19;10
Unknown
I would just say you need to emphasize that stone a little bit more earlier. Like they talk about it in the exchange when atrium gets blown up. But just a little bit more. I think another slip of the tongue from atrium would really set that up otherwise. I know, I'm glad to know why the stone is important.
01;32;19;10 - 01;32;23;16
Unknown
That was really cool. Yeah.
01;32;23;19 - 01;32;47;25
Unknown
Well, no, because Neil is. Well, I don't know why it's important, but I know that it's important because nihilist wants somebody else wants it. Okay? It's important by default that the old one wants it. So what it does is it'll be great to find out, but we know it is important. Gosh, there's the overall significance of the stone the way it originally planned.
01;32;47;25 - 01;33;11;11
Unknown
It was going to be explained in what is now events that are probably going to be in book two. So I'm like, how do I explain this better in book one? Just keep dropping hints. You don't have to explain everything. But yeah, leave the leave the reader along a little bit by the nose I think. Yeah. So I go back to go back to the Wheel of Time again.
01;33;11;13 - 01;33;29;03
Unknown
You know, they talk about the eye of the world all through the eye of the world. The whole point of that book is it's titled The Eye of the world to get to the eye of the world. But as they're going along, you hear hints and hints and hints and stories and ideas about the horn of a liar, you know, and its its significance and whether it's real or not and everything like that.
01;33;29;04 - 01;33;50;17
Unknown
And then you get to the end of the book and it's like, oh, here it is. Okay? And then it becomes a thing throughout the entire. And there's questions about it throughout the entire series. And then you get to the last book. And one of the major questions, the major assumptions that everybody makes about this horn is disproven.
01;33;50;19 - 01;34;26;12
Unknown
I need to finish that series. I just got five and yeah, yeah, getting stuck. I book five is book five is is okay. Book six is amazing. Book six is one of the best in the series. You are missing out by not reading book six. I've gotten to the point in my fantasy reading career where I now have a couple of big series on the back burner because I sprinted through the first four books and I always get to book five, and I'm approximately one third of the way through, and then I just like I need to to purge.
01;34;26;12 - 01;34;52;11
Unknown
I need to read something else. I did that with a jam. Clerks Mark of the fool. It's a progression fantasy series. It's really good, really top notch when it comes to that genre. And yeah, it's just crazy. So I, I ever go back I think so hopefully. Yeah. Yeah. I mean if you want to get a sense of and again I don't know how world span or epic you're going with your fantasy.
01;34;52;13 - 01;35;23;26
Unknown
But we'll at time is one of the few books I've ever read where it went from isolated to national to global on a in a realistic way. It yeah, all the hints throughout that series, almost all of them pay off. So global global is too much for me. I think I find that as I'm writing, the scale of the events are much smaller and more contained as they just travel, along with essentially just a straight route.
01;35;23;28 - 01;35;46;27
Unknown
This this road, not completely straight, but and maybe that's just what I can handle right now. And subconsciously I'm like, okay, just as linear as possible, you know, because what's happening above that and internally is so complex. Yeah. Oh, but admittedly, I can't write epic fantasy. I tried, just not my thing. I can't do it. It's hard. Yeah, it's not easy.
01;35;46;27 - 01;36;08;23
Unknown
So what you're doing. I mean, you're on you're on the track to for a really good series. I mean, you've got a really strong start so that it's all yourself short. Dude, I've been getting lost in the weeds. I've had those those moments in the past couple of weeks where I'm like, I just need to talk to a writing buddy about this stuff so that he can convince me that it doesn't suck.
01;36;08;28 - 01;36;33;15
Unknown
And that's been super encouraging. Yes. You've ever heard about those, like, long talks between Tolkien and Lewis as they kind of like talk about each other's work and yes. Oh yeah, yeah, nothing like getting two writers together to sharpen each other. Yeah. Or three. Definitely. Or 3 or 4 or four. And Kim's here when we can. Yeah. All right.
01;36;33;21 - 01;37;02;29
Unknown
Thank you. Questions for us. Gosh, I think you pretty much covered everything. Yeah. Appreciate it guys a lot of really valuable feedback there. Yeah I enjoy reading. I look forward to this. I look forward to writers group to working with you guys to getting the feedback. So yeah, same like it makes us all better. Yeah, absolutely. All right, I learned.
01;37;03;01 - 01;37;34;18
Unknown
Go ahead. I was just going to ask if we had a question this week. Yeah. So we we talked about discussing being panthers versus outliers, discovery writers versus nondescript writers, plants, panthers versus plotters, plants versus plum bees. Yeah, yeah. Oh, gosh. Okay. In that case, you get to answer the question first. Yeah. You good? What are you and why do you think.
01;37;34;20 - 01;37;52;11
Unknown
All right. I don't know what my blood type is, but I can give you at least a vague approximation of whether or not I'm a pantser or a plotter. So if you're not familiar in particular with those designations, they are the absolutely hard and fast, immutable laws of the writing universe in which you have to be one or the other.
01;37;52;12 - 01;38;14;07
Unknown
It's binary. So a pantser is someone who flies by the seat of their pants. Typically they, you know, the unfair characterization is that they have no idea what the heck they're going to be writing when they sit there, but in the chair and they just write. And it's like the fairy godmother swinging her magic wand, and just beauty comes forth and spews onto the keyboard and onto the screen.
01;38;14;07 - 01;38;35;01
Unknown
And the precise opposite of that is the rigid ice sheet, ice cube shaped man who sits in his little rigid chair approximately 61 degrees in that room. And he has an outline that spells out every single point of what he's going to be writing, and he follows it to the letter and the number and the bullet points, and he's just really tight.
01;38;35;04 - 01;39;12;08
Unknown
So I think most of us probably, fair to say, fall somewhere in between. It's actually more of a spectrum. That's definitely true. Yeah. It's gosh, I, I used to view the outliner as the correct position. The pantser in my mind, was just some terrible hippie who didn't bathe and didn't know how to write. And then you get down into the nuts and bolts of writing, and you discover that when you start writing, your characters start doing things that you did not tell them to do, and they start saying things that are impolite and do not factor into the nice little plot that you had in store for them.
01;39;12;11 - 01;39;34;18
Unknown
So I try to outline it's not nearly as involved the process as it used to be, and then from there, changes happen and I readjust the outline and go from there. Just kind of a living process. Your first draft is very much my first draft is very much living document. You've already heard references to that on this episode, and that's where I fall.
01;39;34;18 - 01;40;00;01
Unknown
I would say somewhere closer to the outlining side, but progressively slipping further into the dark side of of panting, a dark side. How about you guys? Tyler? I'm kind of the opposite of you. I really started off on the on the pantser side. And then as I don't want to spend so much time revising, I'm going further and further towards the outlining side.
01;40;00;03 - 01;40;29;19
Unknown
I like to have like a an end goal, basically. Like I know how I want my books to end and I know, you know, the major conflict and vague brushstrokes at the character arcs. And then I kind of go in and fill in the rest. And that's that is kind of the thing with this. Like, if you're going to be an outliner, you'll spend a lot of time outlining, but you won't spend as much time revising, probably unless you change your mind.
01;40;29;22 - 01;40;51;27
Unknown
On the flip side of that, if you're a painter, you're not going to spend any time outlining depending on where on the spectrum you fall, but then you will spend a lot of time revising. That could be something as simple as going back and forth, shadowing a little bit more, or cutting out 20,000 30,000 words from your book as you as you go along because you realize both.
01;40;52;02 - 01;41;16;05
Unknown
So say she was doing that. Yeah. That's what Kim's doing right now. Well, Kim's book is massive. Yeah, she's she's doing quite a bit. But then I cut 20,000 words out. Jake, you've done a couple times. You've cut 20,000. So it just it it and that's there's, there's a lot of discussion about where what's the right way to do it.
01;41;16;08 - 01;41;33;08
Unknown
Some writers talk about how if they if they did know where the story was going to go, then they're going to lose inspiration for it. Like they're not going to be as excited about it. But that's not that's not everybody.
01;41;33;11 - 01;42;03;02
Unknown
Yeah. Well, I, I am definitely more of a discovery writer, which is probably evident in the things that you've read it. A lot of times I write books based off of either a beginning or an ending, like Techno Men's, or I knew the end of techno. Mansour getting it started was like pulling teeth, but I knew the ending.
01;42;03;05 - 01;42;28;27
Unknown
What was going to happen between the beginning and the end was the question. Lost souls started off with a line and a beginning, and then I've recently discovered what the ending is going to be and what's going to happen. And with with it. I've decided I want to outline it a little bit more so I keep myself on track.
01;42;28;29 - 01;43;02;04
Unknown
And that's mainly because I'm writing in Ya, and I want to make sure I don't stray into some of my nonya writing styles and habits, as it were. So I want to keep more on track. That's, that's an interesting experience, switching from being a discovery writer, going over into outlining and plotting out the details and answering the questions.
01;43;02;04 - 01;43;19;18
Unknown
What happens between point A and point B? And I will say to all of our listeners and to anybody that may listen to this in the future, you're going to hear writers out there that say, you have to do it this way. You have to do this. Don't do this. You have to do this. They're full of crap.
01;43;19;20 - 01;43;47;07
Unknown
Most of them, like I technically right? What I shouldn't, right? I write superhero procedural. I take the rules of superhero. I take the rules of police procedural, I mix them up, but I throw out the ones I don't like and keep the ones I do. I mixed my big time. People will tell you not to do that. And then I did it again.
01;43;47;07 - 01;44;13;17
Unknown
I wrote a fantasy mystery. And so the rules of writing are some some of them. Yeah, you should probably follow. But if you've got people telling you everybody who reads fantasy hates this, so don't do it. They don't know that for sure. They don't. They have no way of knowing that for sure. Are you telling me? JK there's still hope to write my cyberpunk Amish romance?
01;44;13;24 - 01;44;48;25
Unknown
Yes, 100%, thank God 100%. Well, I mean, my cyberpunk cosmic horror. So I mean, it's it's if you are going to write, don't be afraid to write what you want to write. Write what you want to read. Like that's what I did. That's what Hero Unit is. Hero unit was the story I wanted to read. And so when I write, I sit down and I answer the question, what would the world, what what would the world be like if there were superpowered police?
01;44;48;25 - 01;45;17;24
Unknown
That was the question I asked. And I wrote Hero Unit. The question I asked with the Barrel Street murder. My first fantasy mystery is what would it be like is if instead of tiny little fantasy cities, we had a massive, sprawling metropolis and a fantasy setting? And what kind of problems would come up from that? That's I mean, that's just I started my cyberpunk because I was feeling slightly nihilistic.
01;45;17;27 - 01;45;47;05
Unknown
And if you want to write cyberpunk, you have to feel just a little nihilistic, especially if you've ever read William Gibson's Neuromancer, which is the, the the basically the that's the grandfather of all cyberpunk. It's 100% nihilistic. Yeah. It's it's writing is is whatever works for you. You're you're an outliner. Great. Outline the heck out of it and have fun.
01;45;47;08 - 01;46;19;21
Unknown
You're a discovery writer. Great. Go form a writers group with an outliner, and you two will make each other better. And I will say, if you are a pantser and you've never outlined, just give it a try, because it may break you and it may make you. Yeah, yeah, I know I, I learned in high school that I wasn't an outliner because my sophomore English teacher was a writer, and he harped on outlines with every story.
01;46;19;22 - 01;46;40;22
Unknown
We weren't allowed to write until we had our outline finished and graded, and then we would write. And it drove me nuts. I hated every second of it. I'm like, I don't I don't know the answers to these questions because I haven't met these people yet. Why are you asking me these questions? And so I learned that outlining just doesn't work for me.
01;46;40;24 - 01;46;49;27
Unknown
I'm making it work for lost souls. But in general, I if you asked me to outline a hero unit, I'd probably cry.
01;46;49;29 - 01;47;12;08
Unknown
And that's okay. Yeah. And that's and and like Tyler said, if you're an I would love to watch an outliner. Just try to to to write. You don't get an outline. You have to write because it makes it will make you a better writer. Like Tyler said, it will 100% make you a better writer trying one way than the other, and going off on that a little bit.
01;47;12;09 - 01;47;37;18
Unknown
Like you should also like if you're if you are a fantasy writer, try writing something that's not fantasy, like try writing outside of your honor. I want to see gray write a contemporary story where the language is just our language, and see what he does with that. Yeah, because I think I think he's you're I think your strengths as a storyteller would be really interesting.
01;47;37;18 - 01;47;56;05
Unknown
It's like it's like it's too late, guys. What's the example I'm trying to think of? Like when you're when you've been injured and in a cast for so long. Oh, right. But you have to like your muscle is atrophied in that area. No, no, it's not what I'm saying. The opposite of that. Where like, you've had to. Oh my gosh, what's the word for it?
01;47;56;07 - 01;48;13;20
Unknown
Like your other muscles have to work harder. And then when you finally get to compensate. And when you finally get the get the get it off, suddenly you are like a freaking superhuman. That's what I think Greg would be like if you if you decide to write a contemporary, because then the language will no longer be an issue.
01;48;13;20 - 01;48;37;29
Unknown
Basically. Okay, that that NASCAR romance series is a go. Oh, I'm so excited. Let's do it. No, never. My first writers group actually did. We did that to each other after we'd been meeting for a little while. We said, okay, we set a word cap. We also set a minimum, like it had to be more than this, but it couldn't be more than this.
01;48;37;29 - 01;49;02;00
Unknown
And we said, okay, you have to write in this and you have to submit it. Mine was essentially it was like film noir is what mine was because I'm like, I've never understood what that means when it comes to writing. Yeah, it's I just tried to like, copy.
01;49;02;03 - 01;49;14;24
Unknown
All of the cliches of like, The Maltese Falcon and Kiss Me Deadly, The Big Sleep and stuff like that. That was not easy.
01;49;14;26 - 01;49;36;04
Unknown
Fun, but not easy. Anyway, get out of your comfort zone. It's going to make you better, a better person and a better writer. In fact, I think. What do you guys think? Should we throw the question out to the to the audience here? Are you a pantser or a plotter? Are you are you scared to try the other option there, or are you somewhere in the middle?
01;49;36;06 - 01;49;57;13
Unknown
What do you think? Well no comments. What do you do? Yeah. All right. Thanks for another good session, guys. Yeah. Thanks for all of our plugs already. So I think we can just off fade into the ether. Farewell. Goodbye to saying goodbye.