From Tax Advisor to Business Growth Partner

Show Notes

Uncover the secret sauce to doubling or even tripling your business profits without spending a dime on advertising! In our enlightening chat with Tatiana Tsior, CEO and Founder of The Bold Method, we explore how to build a profitable, self-sustaining business that won't leave you chained to your desk. Tatiana's revolutionary approach to business development allows entrepreneurs to step away from day-to-day operations, retire comfortably, and live off their investments, all while avoiding hefty tax penalties.

We'll guide you through a labyrinth of market dominance strategies and dive into the psychology behind pricing. Tatiana brings her expertise to the table, detailing the importance of a unique selling proposition, the power of drip campaigns, and the art of standing out in a saturated market. She also shares her savvy three-option pricing strategy, utilizing color psychology to create a compelling pricing framework. With insights on understanding supply and demand curves, you'll soon be setting the perfect price for your products and services.

Finally, we delve into the world of advisory services. We explore how to create capacity within your firm to focus on these services, and the value they bring to potential clients. Tatiana sheds light on the concept of proactive tax advisory services that can save clients significant sums of money and keep them coming back for more. From the tax reduction strategy plan to business tax filing and personal tax filing, Tatiana leaves no stone unturned. Tune in for an episode filled with actionable strategies that will transform your business approach and supercharge your profits. Don't miss out!

What is AccounTrends: The tax and accounting thought leadership podcast?

A bi-weekly podcast bringing you insights and advice from the accounting & tax industry's top experts and thought leaders. Learn more at IntuitAccountants.com/AccountTrends

Jasen Stine: Welcome to Account
Trends everybody. I'm Jason

Stein with Intuit Accountants.
My co-host, David Bernstein, and

I are excited to be with you
every couple of weeks to share

the latest news, interesting
perspectives and hottest trends

in the tax accounting world.
We'll have special guests on the

show to help break these trends
down and give you food for

thought as you find new ways to
deliver for your clients. But,

most importantly, we plan on
having some fun while doing it.

Welcome, All right, welcome back
to Account Trends everybody.

Jason Stein here, your host
along with me, as always. Mr

David Bernstein, How are you
today, sir?

David Bergstein: I'm doing great
today. I played a little

pickleball this morning before I
did any work, and now I'm ready

to talk to you about what I
always talk to you about How

many more chickens have you
added to your nest?

Jasen Stine: Well, in one of
these days, I'm going to unpack

this pickleball game and learn
more about it. As you say, it's

the fastest growing sport in the
world, right?

David Bergstein: You got it.
Even a professional football

player is doing it now.

Jasen Stine: That's interesting.
I'd never heard of it before I

met you. Chicken, yes, chicken
update. So we have a rooster and

we don't want roosters, so we
got to figure out what to do

about that. We've got our big
girls down in the coop and then

we've got the little ones in,
actually like a plate pen type

of setup in the garage, because
they're just finishing

feathering. And last I think it
was earlier this week one of

them started growing and that's
how you have a rooster. So any

advice on handling that I'm open
to it.

David Bergstein: Well, what time
does the rooster start making

noise?

Jasen Stine: Well, what do you
mean In the morning? Yes, yeah,

right now. It's been like way
later after this. Usually they

start making noise when the sun
comes up, right? But we heard

him grow in at like 9 or 10 am,
which is, you know, sun's been

up for several hours by that
point.

David Bergstein: Well, i can't
help you with your roosters, so

let's pass on the roosters and
the chickens.

Jasen Stine: You don't want a
rooster.

David Bergstein: No, i don't
want a rooster, but let me

introduce our first guest. But
somewhere a birdie told me she

might have chicken, so maybe she
has the answer for you.

Jasen Stine: Yes, maybe. Well,
let's find out. Because we have

her here. I'd like to introduce
Tatiana Sawyer, And Tatiana is a

, you know, seasoned expert in
our professional, ceo and

founder of the Bold Method, and
I'm excited to have her here,

tatiana, welcome.

Tatiana Tsoir: Thanks so much,
Jason and David. It's a pleasure

to be here on your show.

Jasen Stine: You want to take my
rooster out of my hands.

Tatiana, I'll fly it down with
it for you.

Tatiana Tsoir: Not really. Ours
is kind of an a-hole a little

bit, attacks everybody and stuff
, so we're not happy with those

either.

David Bergstein: Well, i guess
you know, if you move to Florida

, you don't have to worry about
that. But we brought you on

because you've changed one of
the trends that we've been

following. We're following this
advisory trend all over, and I

actually looked at your website.
You don't even call yourself a

CPA firm. You call yourself an
advisory firm And I looked at

your website and it doesn't talk
about the normal services, the

tax and accounting. It talks,
let's say, tax strategy,

fractional CFO, price psychology
, exit planning, all those great

things that are becoming the
trend of even the big forefarms.

Tell us a little bit about who
you are and what you do.

Tatiana Tsoir: Well, businesses
hire me to double or triple

their profits, using no
advertising strategies, so that

they can scale, become sellable,
sell with no tax and then never

have to work again. That's the
idea. But it takes the full

cycle for a business. I take
them with my one of my books,

right, i take them from the idea
for a business to creating that

business smart and then helping
them grow and scale so that the

business can run like clockwork
. Help them create consistent

and predictable flow of leads,
conversions of those leads, and

then create standard operating
procedures and things like that

and make it sellable. Whether or
not they want to sell it is

another question, but along the
way I also save them money on

tax And then, when they're ready
to sell, i help them sell it

without tax and never have to
work again. And it's been really

powerful for businesses and for
me too.

David Bergstein: That sounds
fantastic. So you work mainly

with businesses? Do you do the
same thing help CPAs understand

this, or so?

Tatiana Tsoir: I do So in order
to work with my firm, you have

to have a business, so I don't
take on once a year clients.

That's number one. There's no
advisory related to that. That's

what's something that's going
to be replaced by AI in the

future, maybe even the nearest
future But and I don't take on

separately individuals that
don't have a business unless

they have a portfolio of
investments. And so, yes,

definitely have to have a
business.

David Bergstein: Jason, what do
you have to say to her? Well,

tell me more about this.

Jasen Stine: No work thing. That
sounds impossible, but

interesting.

Tatiana Tsoir: Well, the idea is
that there are strategies to

build a business that allow you
to not have to spend money on

advertising. I'm personally very
anti-advertising in certain

ways because I've had really bad
experiences advertising, and

when I started doing this
coaching advisory not just tax

advisory, but regular advisory,
business advisory for businesses

what I've noticed was that when
you advertise, you're pitching

100% of people right, but only
about 3 to 7% of them at any

given point in time are actually
ready to buy, or you have to

sell, and so what happens is
that you spend your marketing

budget showing your ads to 100%
of people and only 3% of them

are even ready to buy. So you're
wasting 97% of your money. And

so the idea is to build a
business such that there is

consistent flow of leads and
convergence, so you have a

consistent flow of revenue, and
then optimize operations, cut

costs or optimize processes so
that it's a repeatable process,

and the idea is that, whether
you sell it to a third party or

to your family or employees or
whatever that thing is, then the

proceeds typically get invested
into a trust and deferred sales

trust that you don't pay any
money tax unless you get some

cash out and you invest that
money and you live off of those

investments. maybe start
something else. Maybe you're

involved in that business for a
couple of years to give you some

extra income. maybe you become
a speaker. Whatever that

situation is, you never have to
work again. You can do whatever

you enjoy doing, but you never
have to actually do it.

Jasen Stine: Well, I love that.
I always say, especially to my

kids wealth is about creating
options for yourself, And that's

how you really want to think
about it. Building wealth for

the sake of building wealth
isn't why people do it. It's

having the freedom to choose
your path and have options for

yourself, And that goes
professionally and personally.

So I very much agree with that
philosophy And it's interesting

as you were talking about that.
It sounds a lot like the TikToks

have been coming across these
days, where people are talking

about take your money and put it
in this trust and everything

flows through there. I'd love to
hear more about how you advise

people to do that. That's
interesting Because I think

there's a lot of information,
other people are talking about

it, but just this, really really
high altitude.

Tatiana Tsoir: So, first of all,
i agree with you on the kind of

options, because my actually my
life philosophy is make a

choice today that leaves you a
choice for tomorrow, and so I

think that's very much in line
with what you said. But in terms

of these trusts and the things
like that, typically in order to

set up trust you will need an
attorney, and so for us, as

accountants, it's the idea of in
order for us to make more money

, let's put it, let's make it
simple in order for us to make

more money, and really because
once the client sells, there's

not much money that you can
generate, and so it's

technically for traditional
accountants it's a stopping

point in terms of revenue from
that client. But if you get this

series 65 and then insurance
license, you are able to offer

investment opportunities and be
a part of fractional family

office, for example, which is an
investment firm, and find one

that actually aligns with your
own risk tolerance and things

like that. And then they are the
ones who typically manage that

deferred sales trust. It's a
very specific type of trust

where proceeds from sale are
invested And only if you take

the corpus out. That's when you
get tax on the capital gain, but

corpus is the main amount that
goes into the trust as opposed

to income. So every year your
trust will generate interest,

dividends, capital gains and
things like that And those are

taxable typically. But unless
you touch the corpus which you

shouldn't typically people just
sell and retire and live off of

the earnings and maybe do
speaking and things like that.

But that's the idea behind it in
a nutshell.

Jasen Stine: And the trust owns
all of everything that you have

right.

Tatiana Tsoir: It owns the
business investments. It owns

the proceeds from the business
sale.

David Bergstein: So your assets
from other things are all

separate. This is just taking
the proceeds to make it a

non-taxable event into the trust
.

Tatiana Tsoir: Correct, because
you're really managing the tax

bracket here, because you can
take the money out of the corpus

, but it will just be subject to
tax for that amount, and so you

can kind of control the tax
bracket that you're in, which is

really important.

David Bergstein: Okay, can I hit
you up with a question, since

I'm finding this intriguing as
to what you do? So let's say you

find a typical client comes to
you cause they want to grow

their business. How do you tell
them to get the continuous

amount of leads without paying
for it? Well, you know, to start

them to grow their business,
what do you do to help them?

Tatiana Tsoir: That's a very
good question. I wasn't

expecting it, but it's a very
good question. I think it's

really an important point. So
this is a part of the coaching

that I do with clients, and so
there's a method to it right.

And typically when we work with
clients, we start with something

called a position of marked
dominance, and what that is is

how you stand out. It's actually
a part of my upcoming TEDx as

well. I mentioned that. I call
it a USB. We commonly know it as

a USB unique selling
proposition. I call it a

position of market dominance
just because I want to be

different. But the idea is that
it's how you stand out, how you

show up and stand out in your
own ingenuine way, and for

businesses it has to do with how
you're different from other

brands and what makes raving
fans of your brand. And when you

don't have that USB, that
market position of market

dominance, when you don't have
that that typically looks like

or actually not looks like it
actually becomes a price

competition, and price
competition is always a race to

zero, and so it's a very
important point, and so we start

with that. Then there's a
couple of strategies that come

kind of aligned where, i guess,
coupled with position of market

dominance, such as drip
campaigns, and I'll explain, and

briefly kind of, how that works
. Remember, i mentioned the

buyer's journey, how only three
to 7% of people are in the

buying mode. Well, 93 to 97% of
people are not, and so they're

somewhere else on the journey.
Maybe they are not even aware of

the product, like the tax
planning product, for example.

Right, most people don't even
know that proactive tax advisory

exists. Not, accountants,
people, businesses they don't

even know that you can do
something proactively to reduce

your tax. So that's kind of at
the beginning of this buyer's

journey. But then there's
something like analyzing okay,

who's even offering that? What
are the benefits of buying, what

are the cons of buying, like,
what's involved? And so that's

the 93 to 97% of people. And so
the idea is they have a problem.

They have a problem in their
head that they don't want, and

so we develop with the client.
Typically we develop a solution

to that problem, but we also, in
our marketing materials, we

talk to them addressing that
problem. And I'll give you an

example of how it's not easy as
easy as it sounds to put it

together Accountants, right, the
way we market, we're terrible

at marketing, right, but the
idea is that when we talk to

people, we compete on accurate,
timely, reliable work. But

everybody else does that. How is
that different? How is that

unique? And people don't. Do
they care? They probably care if

it's accurate, but do they
really care? Do they think about

it all the time? Do they not
sleep at night because of that?

No, so we as accounts, we can't,
or struggle, i guess not. Can't

We struggle? thinking like that
consumer, like that business

owner, what is really keeping
them up at night? And that's

definitely not the accuracy of
tax return, it's how much tax

they pay. I mean, that's the
premise of tax proactive, tax

advisory. The premise is that
they want more money in their

bank account. That's what they
want, because that allows them

to have the life that they want.

Jasen Stine: Right, right,
brilliant, and I love that you

brought up tax advisory, because
that's exactly what you've been

talking about. Right? This is
one of many strategies referring

to the trust conversation.
That's one of many strategies

that people can take advantage
of, and so I wanna what you've

really done is you've built your
business around business

coaching and tax advisory right
together, and that's what this

profession is working towards,
the ones that are looking to

what's the next thing, and
that's what David and I talk to

guests about all the time. So I
wanna circle around that, but

one of the things I wanna also
come make sure that we touch on

is I'm remembering your talk at
QuickBooks Connect, and you did

a session on price psychology,
and I know you're an expert in

this space. I'd love for you to
share with our audience some of

those points that you were
making around how people should

be thinking about pricing and
selling their services, and from

the lens of accountants who are
wanting to be like you, right,

who want to all be business
coaches and be tax advisors.

Yeah, yeah.

Tatiana Tsoir: I mean, i got
lucky I don't know what to call

it but I really have been
fortunate in life with teachers

of all kinds, not just educators
by trade but teachers in

general. And about four, five
years ago when I went through a

couple of coaching programs one
was a technical coaching and tax

advisory, what was a business
coaching that allowed me to work

one day a week in the business
off season and things like that.

There was a lot of efficiencies
in automation that we've put

together. But also, at the same
time, i signed up for price

psychology certification and
training And honestly, it blew

my mind. It blew my mind how we
as human beings make decisions

when the price comes into play.
And I've learned a ton. And

because I was also going through
these coachings, i was applying

the price psychology that I was
learning into my packages.

Because in the coaching that
I've signed up for, they were

teaching you or us, i guess to
put together a menu price. Menu

price meaning three options. And
there's psychological reason

for it being three. Right,
because two you're kind of

cornered into a yes or no and
then people end up not choosing.

And then four too much and
people end up not choosing as

well. So three is the optimal
packages. But in that coaching

there wasn't any additional
training on what should be

included, what should be
excluded. So, having taken that

training, i've started putting
it together and I pretty much

finalized my packages in about
two years after that. But the

important thing that I've put
into my packages was meetings

with me, right With client
meetings. So yes, we were doing

the compliance. Yes, we were
doing the bookkeeping. Yes, we

were starting with the tax plan,
with the tax advisory plan, and

yes, there were notices in the
bookkeeping. Yes, there were

notices included or whatever it
was set up in the beginning. But

it made it very clear for me
that I can't. Initially I made

my lowest package once a year
tax returns for business and

personal. But I quickly realized
that it wasn't an option. I had

somebody sign up for that
package and then I realized I

don't really want to do their
stuff because it's a disservice

to them and it's a disservice to
me. So then my firm kind of

graduated to okay, we're not
going to accept once a year

engagements because again, it's
a disservice to them, they don't

get the advisory that they
think they're getting And we

don't get the quality of the
work. I guess, whatever you will

call it to actually feel proud
of what we do. Because, as

accountants, it's important for
us to feel proud for what we've

done and accomplished and do
every day, and so price ecology

has played a huge role in what
I've done and knowing how to

present packages. If it's a
monthly package, that you would

end it in seven, because most
people don't round up sevens but

they do round up nine. So if
you have a package that's 7.99,

most people will quality 800 to
multiply it by 12, and we'll get

the annual fee. But when it's
ending in seven, most people

won't. So they will just think
about it from a perspective of a

monthly cost. And can I afford
it on a monthly basis? If it's a

yes, then we move forward, and
so it's been transformational

for me.

Jasen Stine: And one of the
things that I really loved about

your talk was how you talk
about anchoring your pricing.

Can you share more about that? I
think that's really powerful.

Tatiana Tsoir: Yeah, anchors are
one of my favorite topics

anchors and decoys But anchor is
a purely psychological concept

And anchor is a number, is a big
number, and it doesn't even

have to be a price of your
product or a related product. It

can be something completely
unrelated, and I'll give you an

example of that. So let's see,
there was actually an experiment

. There was a study done on a
wheel of fortune that had two

options One had a big number and
the other one was a very small

number, like $68 versus I don't
know 10,000, for example. Right,

and people were randomly asked
to predict the average number of

winning a lottery after they've
spun the wheel, and the results

were such that when those
people who got a bigger number

on the wheel, their numbers were
much higher than others, and

those two things were completely
unrelated to each other. And so

the way it works is, when
another number is mentioned

right before you talk about
price, it makes the price seem

lower. I mean, it could be used
in a manipulative manner, but

the idea here is to show the
value, which is why you see

these stores like whatever big
stores that sell marked down

items previously $497, $95 for
you today, or something like

that And so people look at that
$497 and it sets an anchor in

their brain because it's right
there on the price tag And it's

the same way with services and
accounting fees and everything

else. It's very powerful.

Jasen Stine: And so, using that
psychology, you recommend the

three options. Right, and as
people think about those options

, what are the things that have
gone into how you've set your

three options? Maybe help unpack
that a little bit.

Tatiana Tsoir: Yeah, of course.
So the way I present the options

is also important. We always
start with the most expensive

option first, because it sets
the anchor right, and so that's

really important. Also, when you
start a conversation with the

client and you start with the
top one and they say, okay,

there's no need to waste time
talking about the cheaper

options. Why give them ideas
right? The idea behind the three

options is really the supply
and demand curves. The idea is

that your main fee is that
equilibrium right, the

intersection of the supply and
demand curve. But there will

always be people, like me, for
example, who will want the

all-inclusive resort. There will
always be people who want to

work with you in a more involved
way or manner, but they can't

afford it at the moment. But
they know that there's potential

. So having a smaller option,
kind of like an entry point into

your brand, is also important.
And so for my three options, the

way I presented, i present the
most expensive one first, of

course, and then it's also
powerful from a color

perspective, like a head of
professional designer design it,

and there are three sections on
that sheet Three columns for

the packages, but then also
three sections. The first

section is applicable to
everyone. And so the first

package, the lowest package,
includes, for example, irs

notice response, tax preparation
for one business, one personal

tax plan, separately quoted, and
a couple of things like

overnight FedEx delivery, which
nobody really uses anymore for

documents because they're all
paperless, things like that, and

so the person sees that at a
minimum they get these

particular benefits from me,
from my firm. And then in the

second section, the horizontal
section, that's when items only

apply to the elite package and
the medium package, and then

that would include things like
audit support, but not before

reduced rates. It would include
things like reasonable

compensation study every year,
retirement optimization

throughout the year, small
business deductions throughout

the year, optimization of that,
so advisory kind of around that.

And I typically for the second
package I include one call a

month. For the lowest one it's
typically four times a year. So

I typically do a review four
times a year. It's not on

quarterly basis, it's typically
May, september, november and

December, just for the reasons
of tax advisory. And so

typically we meet with the
client who's in the lowest

package four times a year If
they want any additional

services or sessions with me or
quick questions. Typically

that's at a reduced hourly rate
and they prepay for a package of

three hours. But the idea is
that for the second package, the

second package has to be kind
of like a perfect combination of

the benefits and price. So
that's because you will be

selling 60% of that. So more
than half the time you will be

selling that middle package And
it's certainly true in my

practice as well. And so the
second package for me includes

one call a month. So in addition
to report calls a year, it's

one call a month where we
discuss the month, we talk about

their business, taxes and so on
and so forth. And then the top

package is the Noluclusive
Resort And that includes audit

support. So they audit support,
they pay a premium for it. They

pay a premium for reasonable
compensations and things like

that done fairly more often.
Right, we typically meet with

the clients at least two, three
times a month And I support them

with their business, not just
their bookkeeping and taxes and

all of that.

David Bergstein: Let me ask a
question. What do you call your

three different packages? to
start with, What are the you

know?

Tatiana Tsoir: My most basic one
is essential. The next one is,

i believe, bold. I kind of like
the word bold. It holds me to a

higher standard, for myself too.
And then the top package is

elite.

David Bergstein: Okay, that
sounds good. Then I have one

other clarifying question for
those listeners When you say

audit support, are we talking
tax audits or are we talking

accounting audit?

Tatiana Tsoir: Tax audits, not
accounting.

David Bergstein: So listeners
would know that's what you're

talking about. I like the way
you do it, giving people three

choices. I think everyone's come
to the conclusion that three

choices this is the best,
because if they don't go all the

way, they go in the middle and
then you up them somewhere along

the line, and I like the choice
of names that you're utilizing

for them.

Jasen Stine: Yeah and yeah,
getting away from the laundry

list of services right And just
saying that this is you're

getting similar types of
services across the packages,

but this is a much more reduced,
structured, minimal package

than we've got. here's where
we're gonna really kind of help

you grow and take things to the
next level And then here's the

massive. you get the best I can
possibly offer package And, from

what I understand, people do
even buy the elite package right

. Like you mentioned, you're
more of the all inclusive resort

type And so out of the
remaining 40%, how many should

people expect the elite versus
the basic package?

Tatiana Tsoir: I'm definitely
not a hostile type person. Never

have been. It's definitely on
the all inclusive resort or just

a really good deal, but my
experience has been, which is

interesting In my firm I only
have maybe two clients on the

lowest package. Typically people
want the support. The problem

is that all accountants offer
that support. Because what I

found starting to work with
business owners as coaching

clients right. We would meet
once a month. We would meet

talking about their business in
the month that closed kind of

what the numbers are, what the
trends are and things like that.

But if there is another meeting
a month and some clients have

three, four meetings a month we
talk about other things. And so

what I've noticed is that people
started being more open and

brave to ask questions that they
would typically never ask

because they would be ashamed
And shame is a very powerful

emotion Ashamed to ask questions
that they feel they should have

known the answers to. And they
started asking these questions

and that's been really powerful
for them. And so I have quite a

few elite clients and only one
or two essential, which is the

basic package. Basically that's
just how it's been. And people

love the protection for audit
that costs money because an

audit could be anywhere from
four to 12 to $15,000 to take

you through an audit and it
takes sometimes years And paying

a premium on having that
protection is something that

people love.

Jasen Stine: Yeah, that's
amazing. So can you talk more

about, like, how do you
cultivate your clients and

explain the value of these
services, get them to sign on

the dotted line, right? And then
I'd like to lead that into

lessons learned over the,
because you touched on, you've

learned certain things over the
period of doing this. I'd love

to unpack that more, but let's
start with because that's

something I think people
struggle with a lot They don't

even feel confident that they
can put these. They can put the

packages together, maybe, but
like and then how do I sit down

with somebody and sell them on
it, right?

Tatiana Tsoir: What I found,
which is very interesting and

actually, if you ask me, a
little bizarre. But what I found

is that when you present
packages to people, when you

have gone through the tax
advisory process right, you've

developed a plan, you have
implemented it or you're about

to implement, they're signing in
the dotted line for the tax

plan. Then you start talking
about well, you know, and

typically like if you hire kids
or if you do the Augusta rule,

renting, you know, your own home
to your business or whatever

typically there is money trail
and paper trail that's involved.

You have to have a lease, you
have to have a board of

directors meeting kind of set up
, and preferably I prefer to do

that every month and sometimes
every quarter, depending on a

client. But there is some work
that needs to be done after

we've implemented so that you
can continue getting your

savings right every year. And so
typically you know, with the

way I start with clients, is the
tax advisory part. You don't

have to leave your current
accountant. We can. This is a

standalone service. We can do
this with you, for you, and then

you can go back to your
accountant and get them to do

your taxes, which would be an
ideal situation. The problem is

they all want to stay because,
after you have generated so much

money for them, they're like I
don't want to go back, i never

want to go back again, and so,
but initially they were

protective of the accountant,
which is great. But the idea is

that, like I'll give you an
example, the following things

are included in every package
that I sell right Tax reduction

strategy plan one time fee,
separately stated, really

doesn't mean anything, but takes
up a line and has a check mark

next to it Very powerful from a
psychology perspective. Advanced

tax plan ongoing maintenance.
What that means is in my monthly

packages there is a separate
fee for doing all that paper

trail and money trail, because
sometimes we do the account

transfers between account
transfers for the client and

things like that. So let's say,
if they practice, i don't know

profit first. Sometimes we
support that, and a part of the

ongoing tax plan maintenance
includes transferring money for

rent, which reminds me I have to
do some for a few clients this

month. Also included in every
package business tax filing for

one business and one state
Personal tax filing one, so for

one family. You know, if there
are two partners and they each

need one, then there's going to
be an additional charge Notive

response IRS and state. And then
small business tax deduction

optimization Basically reviewing
your books when I'm preparing

your tax returns to make sure
that we've maximized your

results for that year. So this
is something that everybody can

do. It's something that we
already do. We just don't charge

enough for it. And so I think
that's a starting point, because

it sounds overwhelming. But the
reality the bizarre reality, is

that when I talk to clients and
I show them my packages which I

typically don't even show them
I typically start talking about

the most expensive package. The
question is not whether they're

buying or not. The question is
which package should I choose?

That's how it's been. And so
when you know what you're

offering and what you're willing
to take on or not take on

because a lot of accountants are
just like taking everything

that's coming through the door
and then doing a lot of work for

very little money When you know
exactly what you're offering

and what you are charging,
that's when it becomes powerful.

And another thing is in a
conversation and I remember so

this is something that I've
learned from price psychology

back in the day if at any point
you have a conversation with a

client who says this is
expensive, it means that you

failed to communicate your value
. That means you didn't give

them enough information to show
how valuable you are, so it's on

you really.

David Bergstein: Right. I like
that. You're selling value all

throughout and they understand
it. There's no problem getting a

commitment.

Jasen Stine: Yeah Right. And
when you're talking about saving

them tens of thousands of
dollars in taxes, that's a

pretty valuable thing. So,
people, i know that all aligns

with our studies, even the three
options. We talk about the same

thing when we're doing
education or pricing. And I

loved your story about. You
mentioned it. I don't know if

you thought, if you extrapolate
this in your mind the same way,

but you talked about clients
that come to you and you tell

them hey, go ahead and go back
to your accountant, have the

taxes done, we'll just do the
advisory stuff together. And

then all of a sudden, they're
like I don't want to go back to

my accountant, even though they
may have loved them before they

met you. And I think that's
really important for people to

hear, because those firms that
are not doing this, that's

what's going to happen to your
clients. They're going to find

somebody that does realize
that's more valuable and then

they're just going to quietly
disappear. And so it's critical

that every firm that's serious
about their future as a firm and

attracting higher value clients
that they invest in, create the

capacity in the firm first, so
that you can focus on advisory

services.

Tatiana Tsoir: Yeah, i think the
story you're referring to is a

story of a client of mine. I
think I named him Tony I don't

remember. I renamed him so that
nobody obviously can connect the

dots But the client it's a
great example. Actually, i've

known the guy since 2009, maybe
so 14 years now, and up until

2018, i've been asking for his
tax business And the good thing

is he never gave it to me,
because then I sold him a tax

plan. But the idea is that at
the end of 2018, i was already

going for the tax proactive tax
advisory training And so I was

like, listen, let's take a look
at what you've got. And what we

found was that not only did we
make some changes for 2018, but

we also I looked at 2017 and I
looked at the books, because I

was a bookkeeper. First I looked
at the books and I noticed that

there was a chunk of income I
think it was 300 something

thousands of income that came as
one chunk. So I asked my client

about it and he said well, this
was carried interest. And if

you don't know, what carried
interest is basically oftentimes

in real estate, when there is
real estate sales, there are

real estate partnerships,
investment partnerships that

invest in a big deal, a bunch of
apartments or a bunch of

townhouses or whatever. They
basically, let's say, renovate

them a little bit, hold them,
make money on them, and then

they sell them at a gain.
There's usually for the finder

of such a deal, there's usually
a carried interest. So if we

sell it for 25% more, you get I
don't know 3% of the deal or

whatever of the sales price,
whatever that set up is. And so

carried interest actually is a
capital gain, which means that

it's taxed at a lower rate. And
so for 2017, this particular

client who was so in love with
his prior accountant, he was

like he gives me a good deal on
taxes and all of that And I'm

like that's fine, that's totally
fine, i don't compete on price,

and so it was always very, you
know, bolstering that sense. But

after I found this, he was like
, oh my God. So the bookkeeper

didn't know, didn't post it as a
separate type of income. The

accountant's never looked,
because they do 4, 500, 1500 tax

returns I don't know how many
returns they do And so they

never looked. They never. And so
this guy paid, overpaid, like

50 or $60,000 just in federal
tax alone for that year. So

we've amended their return,
we've got him some savings back.

But after that he was like I'm
never doing anything without

asking you.

Jasen Stine: That's the real
deal right there. That's where

we want to be with clients,
right.

David Bergstein: Yeah, and you
set it up front. Also, you don't

want the once a year client
because you're doing them a

disservice. And when you get
into advisory service whether

it's quarterly, semi-annually,
monthly, whatever it changes the

relationship between you and
your client. You know a lot of

people can learn a lot from
listening to this and what

you've done in the past. I think
you're spreading the word with

your books And you do lectures
also on the side.

Jasen Stine: Yeah, i was going
to save that for last because I

wanted to unpack learnings, But
since you brought it up, David

yeah, Tatiana, we're noticing
that you've got a couple of

books with your name on it there
. Tell us about what inspired

those, what's in it, and I'm
sure people would love to

continue to learn from you by
going out and getting those

books. Stay tuned and get them.

Tatiana Tsoir: Yeah, the books
are available on Amazon And, of

course and if you do buy it,
please leave a review It makes

the author's life much so much
better and brighter. But the

first book, dream Bowl, start
Smart, was really inspired by

working with small businesses
for 15 years. I mean, it's

actually 18 years this year, so
we're talking three, four years

ago, and that's about the time
when I decided to stop working

with startups, and the reason is
that, yes, they need help, yes,

we're probably the best people
to provide it, but they often

can't afford us, and so, unless
they're funded startups. And so

then I started working with
existing businesses, which is

where there's huge impacts in
terms of dollars, and what I've

noticed is that I noticed that I
was catching myself thinking if

only they could do this better,
if only somebody told them in

the beginning to do this better
or that better, and that's kind

of what inspired that book. That
book is for someone who has a

business idea and cannot afford
to fail, so it's a roadmap on

money, numbers and taxes in
plain English, essentially, and

so it's basically a how-to book.
Then the second book owner of a

CEO. This is less of a personal
book, meaning that in Dream

Bowl Start Smart. You will find
a lot of stories, personal

client stories, basically 15
years of experience and client

stories in one book. Then the
owner to CEO was a book put

together for using strategies
that I use working with clients

to help them scale. So you
remember, in the beginning I

talked about how I work with
clients to create no advertising

strategies to double triple
your profit. That's the

strategies. There's not a lot of
personal stories in there. It's

more examples and the
strategies and the how-tos, so

really much more as a reference
material, i guess you would call

it very to the point. So there
is about 15 strategies or so

that you can look at and start
trying to do on your own which

you absolutely could do this on
your own And so that's kind of

the idea behind the books And
that was inspired just with the

buy, i guess is the right word
here but inspired by these

strategies that I use in my
everyday business working with

clients, helping them grow, and
honestly it's been

transformational to see
businesses go from 2 million to

30 million in two years, like
I've helped make that happen,

and that is a really good ego
sweetener I guess.

Jasen Stine: Yeah, well, and
it's amazing And it proves right

that that's the potential that
we have in our profession is to

accomplish things like that.
That's amazing, wonderful So

everybody should go buy those
two books, folks, because that

sounds like Tatiana's gonna
teach you exactly how to get to

where she is And she's in quite
the awesome place. Tatiana,

we're coming up on time. Last
two part question What would you

say is your biggest learning
that you've had on your journey

And it could be on your journey
as a whole or just on your

journey in transforming your
firm And what is the biggest

piece of advice that you would
offer those looking to be on the

same journey?

Tatiana Tsoir: I think the
biggest learning for me has been

actually very interesting In
2018, that's when I was pretty

much six years into my own
practice And I was making you

know, barely making enough for
our family. I was, i wanted to

raise my own kids. That was
important for me And I remember

that I came across this tax
advisory training, had a

conversation. I remember
thinking, and then the coaching

as well, and I remember thinking
to myself what could they

possibly teach me? And so very,
very you know, huge ego. Most

accounts have huge egos. We
think we know it all. So my

biggest learning was when I
dropped the know it all. That's

when I've had breakthroughs like
I've never experienced before

in my life. That's when, in
three years going through that

process, i've cut my client list
in half and quadrupled my

revenue. That's where and you
know and I've always liked

learning, because my brain needs
intellectual stimulation, and

that I know that about myself.
And so for me, like I haven't

stopped learning since I now
learning psychology, gestalt

psychology It's a very specific,
emotional and driven Gestalt

psychology that I applied with
my clients. I understand what's

behind what they're saying me,
telling me, and it's just been

really phenomenal once I've
dropped that And since then, you

know, it's actually funny for
me to see when I talk to other

accountants and they tell me
skeptically what could I

possibly teach them Or what can
somebody else possibly teach

them. I remember myself in that
same situation And I just laugh.

There's nothing I can say or do
to change their mind, right?

But in terms of the biggest, the
advice that I would give others

or myself, were you looking to
for me to tell? the advice that

I would tell my younger self, or
advice to others?

Jasen Stine: I think advice to
others based on your experiences

and talking with other people
who are struggling to implement

these types of services and do
this kind of work.

Tatiana Tsoir: I think my advice
would be to get out of the

victim mindset. To get out of
the mindset of this is what

accounting industry is, because
it's no longer that. It's not.

You know, i remember when I was
just starting my first CPA firm

like for tax experience in 2010,
. I remember that I said, well,

if I work longer, monday to
Friday, can I please not come in

on a Saturday? And I was told
by a very senior partner that's

not how things are done in
accounting industry. And I

remember thinking to myself why
not? I'm much more productive if

I. Maybe, on average, people
are less productive, but I

personally am much more
productive, cause by then I've

already been running my own
bookkeeping business And I'm a

very good time manager, and so
that's what I couldn't

understand. But I think in
accounting industry there was a

lot of those things that we
think are normal that actually

aren't normal at all. So I think
my piece of advice would be to

drop all of that, those
preconceived notions about what

accounting industry should be
like, and really think about

would you rather have more
clients at $1,000 a year or

$2,000 a year that bother you
all the time and don't pay for

that quick question, quick
answer type scenario. Or would

you rather have 50 clients, each
of them paying at least $20,000

a year, like it's your choice?
And the thing is that for

clients it's also. It's not just
for us, but it's also for the

clients, all of my clients. They
get at least 30 to $40,000 a

year in tax savings. So their
tax savings working with me, pay

for my fees, pays for itself
And so kind of getting out of

that mindset I think is super
important and that's what I

would advise.

Jasen Stine: Very inspiring.
Thank you, tatiana. And beyond

purchasing your book, how would
you recommend people stay in

touch if they wanna continue
learning from you?

Tatiana Tsoir: Reach out to me
through Instagram. I live on

Instagram when I'm not on calls
or recording podcasts. But DM me

on Instagram and let's talk.

Jasen Stine: Awesome Tatiana's
pleasure having on the show.

I've learned so much from your
experience. Thank you for

sharing.

Tatiana Tsoir: Absolutely. It's
my pleasure to be here. Thank

you.

Jasen Stine: Yes, all right.
Well, that's a wrap for today.

Thanks for listening, until next
time. Bye for now. Thanks for

listening. If you enjoyed this
episode, please follow us on

Apple podcasts or Spotify. If
you wanna learn more about any

of the topics discussed on the
show, visit IntuitAccountantscom

or visit our website at
wwwintuitcom. Account Trends is

produced and edited by Luke
Johnston. Copyright Intuit 2023.

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