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The environment around us is a swirling vortex of chaos, but you can navigate it when you have an anchor that can keep you steady. Each episode, Liz Herl dives into data driven strategies and real world tactics with Dr. Tim Caldwell to help you become more grounded and centered in a world that is constantly shifting and changing. Learn to effectively navigate family strife, career challenges and handle the anxiety of the unknown that the news is constantly bombarding us with. Liz is a Licensed Clinical Marriage and Family Therapist and Dr. Caldwell is a retired primary care physician and personal trainer. You can lean on their decades of experience to find stability and peace without having to control circumstances or people around you. You can be anchored in chaos.
AIC_Ep26
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Welcome Back and Introduction
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[00:00:00]
Liz Herl: Oh,
Tim Caldwell: welcome back, Liz. Look what we got.
Liz Herl: We got some swag. We're right. We do a swag. Yeah, we got swag. Ingrid and Kios mugs. Yeah, I know. Yes. We're back. We are back. Hello everyone. Welcome to Ingrid and Chaos. Mm-hmm. It's this amazing podcast that we started here a little while back,
Tim Caldwell: modestly. Mm-hmm. Yes.
Liz Herl: I'm super modest and humble.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: I am your host, Lizer. You know, we [00:01:00] decided to do some throw ins of like who we are again, just in case you are tuning in. Yeah. If you're new and
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. Right. That's exactly right. We always want 'em to have people comfortable with who we are and let 'em know who we are.
Liz Herl: Absolutely.
Today's Topic: Control and Dysregulation
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Liz Herl: So today we're gonna talk about a really great topic that I think surrounds us all, all the time, and that is the desire to, for control and the dysregulation when it's lost. So we're gonna talk about the word dysregulation and what all that means. It's a pretty hot word sometimes people utilize and we're gonna be disgusting.
Disgusting.
Tim Caldwell: We'll be disgusting. All right. No, we won't.
Liz Herl: That's disgusting.
Tim Caldwell: Liz has had about 10 cups of coffee before we get started, so,
Liz Herl: so I do apologize in advance. It's Daddy down a
Tim Caldwell: little
Liz Herl: We will be talking about dysregulation. Mm-hmm. And how that can happen when we feel like we're no longer in charge of ourselves, because we struggle with that all the time.
Like self-control.
Tim Caldwell: Right. Liz, thank you for having me back. I'm Dr. Tim Caldwell. I'll be Liz's co-host on Eckerd and [00:02:00] Chaos. I'm usually always here. If I'm not, it's probably a chimp or something like that, but I'm always here. I'm kind of her sidekick for this whole gig.
Oh, sidekick. But we, We very much enjoy what we do here. And we're getting better at it. As you'll see, Liz takes the time to write out some notes to keep us. On track so that we're delivering good information to you folks. We have a topic today that's, really good. We've talked about this several times and we encourage other people to talk about this stuff too.
Understanding Self-Control and Stability
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Tim Caldwell: But this all has to do very much with, self-control. Why we feel like we need to have all this self-control and this, this idea, this absolute fantasy that we have control over anything. There are very, very few things that we really have control over, but this is something we wanna know, that we struggle with independently.
Even in the ventures that we have, and we know everybody at some point in their life will struggle with this type of stuff. So we wanna know why are we so attached to this need for stability? And safety through what we think is what control, well, what happens when [00:03:00] that control slips away.
Liz Herl: Mm-hmm. For sure. it's the feeling of being unmoored and it can also cause a lot of stress. You wanna talk about what unmoored is? Dr. Calwell.
Tim Caldwell: Oh, Liz thrown in nautical terms.
Liz Herl: Well, so
Tim Caldwell: it's uh, anchor means you're unan anchored. Yes. It
Liz Herl: actually means that you're on anchored, you're not tied to something.
Correct. Very good. So it is your body's body and mine showing you like how we start respond. We feel when something isn't predictable any longer. Mm-hmm. We start. Feeling detached and filling out side ad drift. Yeah. Yeah. Adrift what's going on. It's of course gonna affect, affect, I apologize my, our mental and physical health.
Tim Caldwell: Yes. That absolutely true. I love this topic. I've been an athlete most my whole life. I had a long. Stint on the professional side, which people don't quite understand, I was in the magazines a few times, but most likely is you're just making your living as an athlete. Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. Um, There has to be [00:04:00] some discipline in that. And with that need, you need, indiscipline is a sense of control. So we wanna start to look at and explore some of these things. Why do we crave so much control?
Physical and Mental Reactions to Dysregulation
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Tim Caldwell: What's it look like? When we have control and is it, are we really feeling more safe?
Is that the idea? Just to feel safe?
Liz Herl: Yeah. I think that's trying to manage that angst response, anxiety response that we have. Mm-hmm. control gives us a sense of security. Like we know what comes next. We are calling all the shots over our life. Mm-hmm. We really have that belief or idea.
We need this control all the time. Like, we never want that slipping away from us. Right. 'cause that causes. Dis well, dysregulation, right? So think about how we structure our days. We, our regimen. Are you gonna, are you
Tim Caldwell: gonna talk about my alarms, Liz?
Liz Herl: So, how we structure our days in creating meal plans and setting goals and routines.
Dr. Caldwell's referring to his annoying I would [00:05:00] say how many, four or five alarms on his phone a day that he reminds himself to eat because it's more
Tim Caldwell: of his, it's okay. It's more
Liz Herl: ailing mindset. So he has to be reminded in these manners. And so this really does help you stay on track and maintain your It does eating regimens so.
In all, in all seriousness, it is about how we maintain our routines. That gives us a sense of control, of predictability. I know what comes next and sometimes we have reminders, which in all fairness to Dr. Caldwell is not a terrible thing. But it does help keep us on track with our goals and what we expect.
But one thing we have to realize is life is unpredictable. There is no, sure plan that's going to happen. So when things don't go according to plan, what happens?
Tim Caldwell: Well, that's a good point. I think much like dogs, dogs are happier when they have discipline and routine. They understand the parameters of where they need to operate.
I think it keeps them healthier mentally. Probably [00:06:00] physically too.
Personal Stories and Coping Mechanisms
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Tim Caldwell: But I, I think it's a really good thing to have that. But again, I always wanna put forth the idea is it's one thing to have control, but that can be excessive too, right? We want control so that we can not just survive, but thrive.
But what happens when things go wrong? And that's where we need to decide, or at least discuss when things do go wrong. What happens when we lose that attachment to our safety, our, our own personal, our stability? Yeah. Safety and stability where's our confidence? Where'd our confidence go?
Sure. Yeah. I get, we get wrapped up in that.
Liz Herl: So there's that drive that you talk about mm-hmm. Like, we're on the road of life.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: And then you meet a bump that turns into a pothole. I
Tim Caldwell: do. Yeah. We talk about that is, you know, what's that like when you're cruising along just fine and then the wheels fall off.
Mm-hmm. What's that like? And we always wanna talk about. How tricky that is to navigate stuff like that.
Liz Herl: So when we talk about what happens in dysregulation in ourselves, what the big word dysregulation [00:07:00] means
Tim Caldwell: mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: And it's just the acknowledgement of what is happening in your mind and body.
Physical mental reaction. What are your thoughts, what are you thinking about? And those thoughts, of course, will fuel and drive other parts of you. Mm-hmm. Increase your heart rate. You can start, begin to perspire and. One thing that I was sharing with you earlier, and that is we have began to over utilize the use of the word anxiety in a way of, oh my goodness, that really made me anxious versus that really kinda stressed me out or kinda made me worried because life is full of anxieties and
Tim Caldwell: it should be.
Yeah, it should be.
Liz Herl: Right. And the understanding of when you are no longer able to manage that. Like you have to identify, be aware. Oh. So for instance, I have a little story I'll share. Mm-hmm. A few weekends ago I took my daughter bowling. And it was just she and I, and when I got up to. I began to start bowling.
I could feel I was kind [00:08:00] of having this, I don't know, internal freak out moment. We could use that hot word dysregulation. I felt like my chest was getting warm and tingly and I started kind of being like, what? But immediately went into, now in fairness,
Tim Caldwell: you could recognize that because you have a fear of public speaking.
Public
Liz Herl: speaking, right?
Tim Caldwell: Man, that's top of the list in society is one of the main things is. Public speaking.
Liz Herl: Yeah. And everyone's like, you know, you have a podcast, right? I'm like, yeah. So, you know. Yeah. Just the camera and me and microphone. So
Tim Caldwell: you're accustomed to what this feels like when it's coming on and you recognize that?
Liz Herl: Absolutely.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: And that's exactly what we're talking about here, is recognizing when dysregulation happens within your mind and your body. Mm-hmm. I immediately began to be like perplexed, like, what's going on with you, Liz? Like, you're literally just going up to the alley to throw this ball down and have a good time.
And then my check-in with self, I kind of. I was like, all right, this is ridiculous. I was able to kind of regulate myself, and then I broke out some amazing dance moves that you all missed out on. Yeah. But
Tim Caldwell: anyway, they cleared the bowling alley and SWAT was called [00:09:00] in. She was sedated. But listen the
Liz Herl: Running Man is so popular.
Tim Caldwell: It is. It is. So tell me more.
Liz Herl: So when we're talking about dysregulation, that's one little side note is like understanding what is happening. So when it, it is that. Part of us when our nervous system goes into overdrive. Right. Which is what I was just sharing.
Tim Caldwell: Right, right. And um, I'll, let me expand a little bit on that, on the physical side.
Okay. Okay. So let's talk biology.
Biological Breakdown: Sympathetic vs. Parasympathetic
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Tim Caldwell: Let's talk biochemistry. Let's talk about, let's break our systems down as the human animal into two separate parts. Sympathetic, parasympathetic. Sympathetic being fight or flight. Am I gonna have to fight for my life, fight for my meal, do some type of thing that will really cause me harm or great pain or is it gonna be parasympathetic where I have a full belly, I have a safe place to sleep, I have a warm fire.
Those things that help us slow down, relax, sleep, recover. Those things [00:10:00] can, those things are opposed, but they're, they're completely connected. Meaning there has to be balance. Well, when we get overstressed, overstimulated, dysregulated, as you say, our sympathetic can just jump off the charts. Mm-hmm. And now we, we have got to do the very best we can in our own way to try to bring that back down and find ballots.
So that we can get back to the part where we are a healthier animal and that we're not just, we're not literally just in overdrive with this anxious. Biochemical reaction that's going on in your body where your organs are working, your eyes are working, everything's working overtime, and it will literally burn you up,
Liz Herl: correct?
Yeah. So what you're talking about there is the fight or flight part?
Tim Caldwell: That's correct.
Liz Herl: How, our heart rate increases, like I was sharing. Our breath can become shallow. Our stress, stress levels rise. And this is also a chemical imbalance that starts happening in your body as well,
Tim Caldwell: correct?
Correct.
Liz Herl: And as this stuff starts transpiring, this impacts your overall health. This is why it's mental and physical health.
Tim Caldwell: Absolutely. And
Liz Herl: it affects our sleep. I shared [00:11:00] with you that you can be. Ideally thinking you're ready for bed and then you get into bed and you're like, I'm exhausted. I feel the physical exhaustion.
Tim Caldwell: Yes.
Liz Herl: And then as soon as you close your eyes, you're staring at the back of your eye. Exactly. And then everything lights up in your brain to think about an over, you know, review and, okay. So what that I hear or I see happening is what can I control tomorrow that has yet to happen, right.
That I can. Work through tonight prior to going to sleep. Right. Which is all false. None of that is happening. That's right. You're not solving any problems. You're just being, you're just keeping your brain awake,
Tim Caldwell: worried. Fear fear is false evidence appearing real. It hasn't happened yet.
Mm-hmm. And yet we're worked up about it. I, and you know, we hadn't really expanded too much on this, but I would always challenge people in the anxiety that they're feeling. How much, let's go back in your life, how many times of all the things that you're worried about. You feel like you've lost control over How many times has it ever come true that it's really at the level you put it at, right? Correct. It's, it's so [00:12:00] rare of this giant spectrum of things that can go wrong and then you worry about, it's a fraction. It, the impact is so minuscule. Yet we work our way into that. Mm-hmm.
It's terrible. It's, it's the
Liz Herl: perceived idea.
Tim Caldwell: It is, you know, of the bottom
Liz Herl: falling off from under
Tim Caldwell: you, except absolutely somebody's gonna take something that you have that's vital. Really vital. Mm-hmm. Right. I have clients bless their hearts who've been homeless. Mm-hmm.
That's vital. Yes. Right. That's a sense in their life that is almost incomprehensible. I don't even have a place to lay my head. Well, that's serious. Yeah. That's pretty significant. That's, and that's just an example, but we have people that worry, you know.
Do I, did I put enough postage on the stamp? Oh my gosh. I, I don't know. Mm-hmm. It doesn't really matter, does it? It'll just come back and you do it again. Sure. That's how it should always be.
Liz Herl: Right. Well, and one other aspect of this that I wanna touch base on is our digestion. Mm-hmm. How that works.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: When we're not really, when you start having stomach aches and you're like, you know, I normally have a really full functioning system. Absolutely. I don't know what's going on. Yes. Perhaps [00:13:00] you're now, now that's another thing you're trying to control is your digestion.
Tim Caldwell: Well, but you know what MINDBODY and Soul Absolutely.
It all takes together. Mm-hmm. And when I was talking about. Sympathetic parasympathetic. You can work yourself up into such a state that your gut, the gut function, peristalsis is, it's altered. Mm-hmm. You become constipated. You get diarrhea, you get stomach aches, you get gas and bloating. There's some very strange signs and symptoms, rashes, itching headaches sleepiness.
I know that when I get. Fatigue. So let's, let's look at the gym experience. You come to the gym and as you work out, you raise your sympathetic level. You're more aggressive, you're breathing your heart, your heart rate goes up, respiration, but you need to have the ability to dial that back down so you can go home and rest and recover.
Well, when you work yourself into such a state, you are running at, you know, a thousand RPM. Mm-hmm. When you should be ticking around 50, and that just does not give you a chance to slow down and as you [00:14:00] say, close my eyes. And everything go away for a while.
Yeah. Nope. You replaying things in your head. Oh, did I get this done? Did I get this done? What do I tell you to do? Write things down, right? If you can write it down, you can swipe it outta your head and it's over there. And if you should pop awake, reach over there and write it down.
And swipe it outta your head
Liz Herl: and it's over there. And, and it seems simple enough like that, Dr. Cowell. I know, but it really isn't. It's tricky. And that's the, that's the challenge of, it's tricky.
Emotional Impact and Self-Recognition
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Liz Herl: Of the controlled mindset. It's tricky. I mean, those are a lot of the physical parts, but now if we were to look at the emotional side.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. Well, the emotional side look that's rough because when you get ratcheted up, you're not yourself. Right? Mm-hmm. And, you're gonna start snapping at people. You're gonna start being short. You're just not the person you're certainly not the person you would like to be.
But now you get, now you're, now you become the person that, nobody wants to be around either,
Liz Herl: right? Because you don't have the ability to, that regulation of your. You know, normally I wouldn't snap about [00:15:00] this and I seem to be a little bit more biting than I'm used to. Sure. Than I'm Than used to.
Sure. Than I'm, than I am. And then, that actually spirals us sometimes into negative self thoughts around like, why am I being this way? Sure, sure. And then what more can I control? Not to be this way, but ain't.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. Right. You're making it, you make it worse by thinking about it, you're overthinking most of the stuff.
Mm-hmm. But the other is it can affect you negatively, like your impulsivity. You start to become more impulsive in your decision making more impulsive in your speech. You can say things that lash out and that you didn't mean that normally you wouldn't mean that, but you're not your chill self.
Something's going on.
Liz Herl: So the importance of recognizing that within ourselves in humbly. S you know, recognize it. And what I mean by that is just to not overanalyze yourself or overthink it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Or just say, okay, so I see this is happening. Maybe I should take some time and kind of figure out what's going on there.
Because if we can take a step back and evaluate how we're handling our need for control, that gives us a lot more tools to then [00:16:00] address it.
Tim Caldwell: Right. And that's what we need really, is tools. Mm-hmm. So to recognize mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: And
Tim Caldwell: to, to address it with some type of tool.
Losing Control: Causes and Effects
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Tim Caldwell: So let, let's talk about what it's like when we are losing control.
Mm-hmm. Okay. So an event has happened or a situation has a. You've come into a situation where it's been thrust upon you and you're beginning to lose control. Now, we mentioned earlier how that control that lack of control can really feel like it jeopardizes your security and safety. But why is it so hard?
You know, why is it so imperative that we feel like we have to control every single element? Why can't we, why can't we recognize it for what it is? Mm-hmm. Why can't we accept what it is and move on? What's, what do you think is going on there?
Liz Herl: Well, it is the perceived thought of loss of control. So it triggers this primal survival instinct in us.
It's like our brains are wired to think that if we're not in control, something bad could happen.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: Something unpredictable. So that idea of mind reading that we believe are [00:17:00] perceived that we have, which we do not. And in that way that's true because the problem is we can't control every single thing in our lives and.
It stresses us out trying to Right. We, we become so overwhelmed by it,
Tim Caldwell: nor nor should we. Right. Right. We, we have enough responsibilities to try to think we can control the weather. Mm-hmm. And oh, we, we just can't, we, that's you and I are both God feeling people. We put it in God's hands when we just can't handle it.
Quite frankly, that isn't a cop out. That's not, that's not, we're not giving it away cheaply, we realize. There are some things we can control and some things we can't. Right? Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: And understanding that over controlled thought that you are, you know, reproducing 2.5 seconds in your head over and over, right?
You are just building an anxiety, you're building being overwhelmed, right? I, it's one of those things where you might be listening right now. I know I do this to myself. Yeah. You know, and I was like, I understand, but be gracious. Be a little [00:18:00] kind to yourself here. This is just about acknowledging that and being a little, have some self-compassion awareness around that and
Tim Caldwell: recognizing in others, right?
Mm-hmm. So I had a discussion with somebody and we were talking about some different elements in their life and I said, well, this could be a concern. And it turned into, this is horrible. It's not horrible. It's just an you're using the, you're using vernacular. I don't care to use, but I don't jump there yet. What, what what we are is we're, we're gonna start talking about things so we can address those in the future. The one thing I wanted to point out, Liz, is I was born and raised. I was born around, raised around large animals, horses, and buffalo. People who are cowboys, real cowboys.
They understand that our life is like riding a horse and the control of the reins. Mm-hmm. The people who ride horses a lot will realize that the harder I think I can control this animal with the reins in my hands mm-hmm. And squeezing with my legs the less that animal trusts me. That animal can feel me on his back.
Every time I relax my legs and relax the reins, the [00:19:00] horse knows fine. It only takes a little pressure for me to direct that horse. And the longer you spend with the horse, the more you trust, the more you understand one another. Well, that's what life is like. You can pull on it and pull on it and pull on it, and you're not gonna get it to move.
Mm-hmm. If you're in the wrong frame of mind, you really have no control. And beyond that. It's not an issue that involves you. Right? You're trying to control things that are three steps down the road. Don't right now, I don't mean to be flippant about something like that, but in the Navy we always said, don't sweat the small stuff.
And rule number two is everything, small stuff. That isn't easy to grasp onto you when you're in the, when you're in the throes of just, your mind is blown up because things seem like they're going so wrong. But part of the understanding and recognizing I'm in a kind of a bad place, let's reassess.
That gives us a chance to, let's take a look at it. Sure. Let's really look at the problem and fix it. Hopefully you're doing it with somebody else too. Another pair of eyes always helps.
Liz Herl: Right.
Life's Unpredictability and Coping Strategies
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Liz Herl: So another layer to what [00:20:00] you're sharing right there is our identity is of tied to our ability to control things.
And that's probably from the creation of your little beings, of starting from adolescent all the way up to wherever you're at in your life right now.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: And being so we feel like we're on top of our own lives where that's in our careers, our relationships, that it's in our health, like we. Yeah, I know exactly what's going on.
Everything's going our way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when we lose that control, it can feel like a threat to who we are as a person. Mm-hmm. And that's when we really get thrown off emotionally and, and we're not sure how to manage that.
Tim Caldwell: You're right. But you know what? There are some things that just are unforeseen and that is.
Tragedy, loss of life, car accidents. We, we, Liz, you and I have common friends, common training associates and clients that their lives changed in an instant split second. Loss of loved ones impacted their [00:21:00] health. Majorly this isn't, this isn't minor, this is major surgeries. It's incredible.
But is it really worth trying to dwell on all the things I can't predict? It's typically not. And what we need to do is we need to understand that we've lost not a filter, but we've lost the ability to objectively look at it and decide, well, I really couldn't control that. Mm-hmm. Bible tells us that there's only one thing we can control that's ourselves.
Absolutely. So when these things come upon us, we need to take upon ourselves to objectively look well, is it as bad as they say it is? Are there alternatives? Sure there are. Sit and think. Ask somebody older. Ask for the wisdoms of your elders and loved ones. One you can trust, right?
You don't wanna turn to people who, live their life in chaos. You wanna learn to the people who've been through it before, I would say as business owners and people who are. They have either [00:22:00] family and loved ones depending on them, or they have employees or shareholders or whatever. There's a great deal of stress put upon them, but the objectivity is what's missing, and that is slow down.
Reassess, what do we do from this, or where do we go from here? What we need to do then is to just find out what it is we can really trust as being accurate information and what we can trust is, I can't control that anyway, but I'm gonna do my very best to. Adapt to this situation and survive.
Liz Herl: Right.
Personal Loss and Rediscovery
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Liz Herl: And it's, it seems that matter of fact in how you shared that, Dr. Caldwell, in sharing a very life changing, unpredictable event in my life was when. I was 23 years old and I spoke to my mom about every other day, about just life, just normal stuff in life. And one evening she called and I wasn't home, and I'm like, I'll call her back tomorrow and tomorrow never came.
She walked outta work and had [00:23:00] some sort of a physical, you know, attack that they thought was a stroke, which later we discovered was a brain aneurysm. Right. And she was taken. And after that there's no bounce back. The loss of control there is so unimaginable. And I lost everything and having to rediscover or begin to discover who I was without my mother.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: There's no, the control there is just, again, unimaginable.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: And when we talk about that, I don't wanna be so. Flippant.
Tim Caldwell: I won't. And, and believe me, I don't, I don't mean it to, to be like that. It's my, our worlds were different. And I come from an all male military mm-hmm. Background.
I smile when I say that. People think I've been this, tortured animal my whole life. No, no. Not at all. I have a very loving family, but there was a great deal of structure. Sure. And, yours was, you had responsibilities [00:24:00] very early in life. Absolutely. And then as your mother passed away, they were all thrust upon you.
Mm-hmm. Right. And that was not the case in mine. I've always been a part of something bigger than me, and that was my military and military life. But in that is we're not allowed to wallow very long.
Liz Herl: You have to learn to take what you had in the time that you were given with those individuals in your life.
Tim Caldwell: Sure,
Liz Herl: because I had to utilize whatever resources and traits that she provided me in becoming a mother, becoming, a wife, doing all it was. She passed away three months after I had married that was a quick trying to adjust and get into all of those next stages of life without a significant person in my life.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: One of the things that I definitely learned leaned on is everything she taught me about being and faith a person and your Oh, significantly. No, to be honest, that's a whole other conversation.
Struggling with Faith and Anger
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Liz Herl: It is some other time because I stepped away from my faith. 'cause I was very angry with God for that.
That, that's right. That's right. So don't wanna get too off topic, but we will definitely we absolute [00:25:00] covered that Absolutely will. Yeah. On another's, that's
Tim Caldwell: another thing.
Forming a Plan for Self-Improvement
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Tim Caldwell: But you know, Liz, let's, let's then talk about the strategies. Okay. Let's talk about how do we. Here we are. We recognize how we, now how do I come back?
Let's form a plan.
Liz Herl: Sure. Well, and the biggest thing is what I was sharing earlier. I. Kind of modeled is when I was in the bowling alley awareness. Mm-hmm. Like I was aware something was going on within me.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: Like, what's going on within me? Like, I had to do some self-compassion there of not being overly critical.
Well, if I, if
Tim Caldwell: I was there, Liz, and I saw you going through that, I'd go like. What's going on, Liz? Why are you being such a goober? Because I'm her friend.
Liz Herl: Right. That's right. And by the way, we don't necessarily love being called out when we're feeling kind of weird. We don't. We do not. So that's helpful.
Tim Caldwell: We do not. But nobody wants to be spotlighted.
Liz Herl: Right. But when we can learn to recognize that we're true to, I apologize. We are trying to hard to control things. Yeah. We are, you know, trying to, manage whatever it is that's happening. We become a lot more anxious and we getting frustrated [00:26:00] and things aren't going according to plan.
Take a moment, pause. It's okay.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: Figure out what's kind of going on. Being able to be like, and everyone always believes like, oh my gosh, I have to be on point every second, at every minute of every moment. It was like, no, take a minute. Take a breath, like what's going on?
Understanding Negative Cognitions
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Liz Herl: Because one of the things that I talk a lot in my role in psychotherapy is around like negative cognitions, which is like negative thoughts.
Like that's a big word. Yeah. But, or distortions. Yeah. Being we go to a catastrophic state of mind. Yeah. Like worst case scenario, like if. For instance, like you were talking about the postage, if that letter doesn't get there, the world will end. Okay. Maybe not so much. Yeah. Or where we are generalizing, overgeneralizing a situation, we're jumping to conclusions.
We are trying to do mind reading of whatever we believe the other person involved at the workplace is thinking of us. Yes. You know, all of these things, like we're just laying there ruminating all [00:27:00] of these distortions that. It just is such an impairment. Mm-hmm. And the biggest part of that is identifying what each one of those things are.
Mm-hmm. And then addressing them.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: And being, you have to have some beyond awareness. I mean, I dare say gumption, but of like, why do I care that much? And I, I, I don't mean to be unkind in that. No. But why am I, if I give my 100% best and I'm. Completely authentic in who I am and my delivery in whatever it is that I'm giving, whether it be a conversation or a workplace interaction.
That's all I can give. At the end of the day, overthinking how I should have, could have said it differently, gets me nowhere. That's right. So you have to create and construct that kind of cognitive thought process. That's right. Yeah. Just so you know, because that's not something that we're, that's built in.
So we're talking about making that a new neurological feedback so you're able to move into that kind Excellent. Of thinking pattern. Excellent. Versus the [00:28:00] negative one of worst case scenario, you know, tomorrow. Excellent. The world ends because I brought the wrong coffee.
Tim Caldwell: Love all that. And. Let's just look back a little bit on a comparison to how Liz her approach and her profession.
And mine. Mine always sounds like this stereotypical coach speech. Come on, boy. Rub some dirt in it and get back in the game. It's neat how I start talking Southern too, but the whole point, it's like, what is happening? The whole point is Mine was thrust upon me. This is the way you.
This is the way you dig yourself out of a hole. You stop digging first of all. Yes, yes. And do all you can to keep going. I like
Liz Herl: that.
Tim Caldwell: Yours is helping people recognize you're in a hole. You've kind of put yourself there. Stop digging. Mm-hmm. And now here's some tools. I appreciate that and I want people who are listening and watching to understand that.
We are not in conflict in our ideas. Mine comes from a different approach. That's what's, that's what's nice about what we do when we talk, Liz, is that I give the, I get to give [00:29:00] male perspective. I get to give competitive athlete perspective. I get to give business ownership perspective. As do you. Mm-hmm.
But on a fe female side, as a professional psychotherapist, somebody who helps people develop plans for when they're not exactly in the right place and they don't know who to turn to. Sure. So I think this is, I think that's extremely valuable, but more importantly is we need to all. Have the ability to look at something and go, is it really worth all the stress?
If I, all these things that seem to be going wrong, can I sit down in a quiet spot and go, now wait a minute, I'm worried about people liking me. Does it matter? I'm worried about my assessment, my review, what, what their opinion is. Does that really matter?
Liz Herl: Well, and when you say that, I think it's important to talk about what I was sharing earlier.
If you are putting 100% of your most authentic best work foot Yes. And your foot [00:30:00] forward, then that's where you have that reflection of, you know, I did give all here. Now if you're giving 10% and say, does it matter? Yeah, it should matter. Exactly. Yeah. Because you should have some more, you know, that, of that work ethic piece where whatever it may be, however, if.
You are truly putting all of yourself into something.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: That's where it ends. Don't give all of yourself in the, thought process of, well, if I overthink it 10 different ways, it's gonna really work out differently.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. And you know, I'm, I'm gonna piggyback on that just a few minutes, and that is I frequently ask people when they are, they say, well, I'm doing everything I can.
Just every mi every single moment, I'm this, every single really, let's, let's take a look. How are you spending your day? Well, I, I stay up till midnight and I wake up around 10, and then I play video games. Okay, so let's reassess, right? We have some quotes that we both love.
The magic is in the work you're not doing. don't feel disappointed when you didn't get the results from the work you didn't do. one, one of my favorite [00:31:00] ones is if you were the boss. And you were the company, I've heard this a thousand times. Would you hire, would you hire you?
Probably not. So this is, if you're
Liz Herl: not giving your
Tim Caldwell: Right, so this is, this is the coach speech, right? Mm-hmm. This is what you put up on the daily quote and everyth. Ooh, that's really smart. Well, it is, it's smart. Okay. Calm down. There you go. And, and, and you need, and you need to do that for yourself.
No, I'm kidding.
Liz Herl: But the Absolutely.
Tim Caldwell: But the idea is that's the recognition and that is assess yourself. And as I said, we're never alone. Find people get help
The Importance of Boundaries
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Liz Herl: Another area of this, and this has been a very hot topic in our society right now. So I wanna make sure that I put some real quick, real clear understandings around boundaries.
Tim Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Liz Herl: So boundaries in this case we're talking about with yourself and others. For example, instead of trying to control every little detail or situation, we can focus on what we actually can control, like our responses and our actions. An example here [00:32:00] is, I find this quite frequently in any type of interactions when there is two individuals.
And now another individual is responding. The other person is thinking, why are you saying that? Why are you doing that? Like, you should just do this and why don't you do it this way? And this is what's going on in the other person's internal dialogue. And it's making them very dysregulated.
Yeah. Inside. Because this other person is by the way, being their own person. Yeah. And not you and your expectations that they're going to respond and engage the way you do is false. Yeah. And you are creating such a state for yourself. It's kind of like the old this is the backseat driver. Well, that, but it's also the, you know, the older couple where it's like, you know, Tom, stop doing that.
You know, where they're trying to redirect their behavior because it's making them uncomfortable versus you can't control how someone else responds and acts. Right. That's why it's important for you to identify. You can only respond. Hold [00:33:00] yourself accountable. Mm-hmm. To your own actions. Mm-hmm. And so that's why it's important to have those boundaries around your responses to this.
It's about letting go of what you can't control and focusing what you have power over.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: And that being the case of what I'm dictating there is, or sharing, I shouldn't say dictating, but that when you see someone else responding or doing something, this happens in entertainment, in shows. I was just sharing with you that I was watching something, that it was agitating me.
Mm-hmm. I was like, why would you do that? And why do I care? Yes. Like, yes. I'm like, why am I getting all wound up about something? Yes. 'cause a stupid fictional interaction. And then it's like understanding like, well that's because I wouldn't respond that way. Okay.
Tim Caldwell: So in our little mental experiment, the first thing I asked you was, why did that upset you?
Right. We, we wanna explore this.
Liz Herl: I said, because she's weak,
Tim Caldwell: and I said. It upset you because that's exactly what the person who wrote her character was supposed to do is upset a person like you. Mm-hmm. [00:34:00] So this well done. Yeah, exactly. I've watched shows like that where I actually hated the character, but I realized to myself, wow, somebody did a really good job.
'cause I hated that person. Okay. She's an actor. This isn't real. What? What? But that's the point. But
Liz Herl: it's, that's imperative that we talk about that. Yes, yes. 'cause this is exactly in, that's a fictional situation. Yeah. But these are occasions in our life. How many times have you been in a situation, you saw someone respond Yes.
Or do something? And you're like, why would you do it that way? Yeah, yeah. Because they don't do it your
Tim Caldwell: way. And then you may even catch the criticism, you know, later on this really left-handed compliment or maybe somebody who was really trying to get under your skin. And he goes, well, that's not how I would've done it.
I would've done this and this, this, and this. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But you need to take power over that and go, next time you can do it that way. And move on.
Liz Herl: Right. And that's the depersonalization of something. That's right. That I think we have to learn to identify with in those controlling manners.
That's right. When people put their, per the, you know, their expectations [00:35:00] on you and how you should respond to something and you're like, Hey, I'm just me. Like at the end of the day, this is how I'm going to respond. Yeah. Right. This is how I'm going to be and I see that you would've done it differently, but that's not the way I'm doing it.
Tim Caldwell: Well, that's, that's the tools. Mm-hmm. Those are the tools. Sure. And the more experience you have, the more time in the trenches, the more the, sometimes the rougher the experiences, the better you're gonna be at it. We talked about, I made an example to you one time about people in the workplace. You always have one.
These one or two people who they just demand that I be paid as much as this person. Mm-hmm. Like this said, I've been here as long as him. Why does he get Well, it's because that person answers the phone when I call. Mm-hmm. That person will always do overtime. That person will, that person puts forth more.
They deserve that. You haven't proven yourself. And then when I ask, you say no. Mm-hmm. So, those are issues where you're falsely equivocating yourself to somebody who's better than you. That opportunity is one where you make an assessment. [00:36:00] Okay. I need to do what he does.
I'm gonna use him, as an example. I'm gonna follow what he does. I'll ask questions, let him become the mentor. So when we
Liz Herl: go into strategies.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: What do you think one last most important strategy might be?
Tim Caldwell: Most of it, Liz, is you have a word giving yourself grace.
Mine is very much that, and it falls to this self-compassion, but it's also this self-deprecation too, right? Let's say you really tried to do a good job. But you kind of fell on your face, but you need to look back and go, wow, that was, I'm gonna laugh about this later.
Mm-hmm. Quick story. I gave this really, it was kind of a important speech. It was an important speech, and I had a lot of my colleagues there, there were a lot of people there. I bought a new suit the whole bit. I gave a whole thing at the lectern, looked really good. And then I realized about two thirds through the presentation that me wearing my new suit, the label to my suit
was still on my mm-hmm. So form. Rather than [00:37:00] shrink from it, I go, oh, and I tore it off and everybody laughed. Mm-hmm. And then I realized, okay, it's not a big deal. Beautiful. It's happened to everybody, right? Mm-hmm. This is part of the tool. These are part of the tools. This is okay. I didn't do so well.
Liz Herl: Right.
Tim Caldwell: Next time I will. Geez. Next time I'll be
Liz Herl: gentle.
Tim Caldwell: Absolutely. Just be careful. Be, be kind to yourself. We, we we're, we don't know everything victorious for being, we're never going to,
Liz Herl: so just do the best you can. Absolutely.
Grounding Techniques and Self-Compassion
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Liz Herl: And I wanna also talk about one last thing, and that would be grounding techniques.
Those are really popular again right now. Mm-hmm. And understanding what grounding techniques mean. Mm-hmm. It's when we start becoming overwhelmed, how we calm ourselves down, how we tap into who we are and really regulate our system. Our breathing, our mindset, the racing thoughts, the racing heart rate, perspiring, all the things that's happening.
It's practicing. Brother, you, a lot of people are a little away from this, but deep [00:38:00] breathing and mindfulness and meditation because if you train your brain to calm down, there are scientific proven strateg or studies everywhere that you can regulate your system. You have
Tim Caldwell: to do it. Top tier military are taught how to bring it down.
Calm down. Mm-hmm. You need to calm down. If you do any work in the water and you are a part of an emergency response team, you're in an environment where your, your panic will cost you your life. If you're in a firefight, you can't hit a target if you're all over the place, and if he's firing you better simmer the hell down.
Mm-hmm. Because these, these are proven skills, right? Yes, yes. Scientifically skill proven, but in the field, proven slow down. Mm-hmm. Assess. What's good, what's bad. Here's where we go from there.
Liz Herl: Right. And in that you are practicing those breathing pieces around, what are you saying to yourself while you're trying to get your regulation right?
What do you saying to yourself? Right. That is huge. And that's that meditative state and knowing how to touch [00:39:00]
Tim Caldwell: base with yourself. And when you say meditation, not in the woowoo. Everybody does, sits cross-legged on a mat.
Liz Herl: Mm-hmm. It's, that's for some Okay. But not for
Tim Caldwell: all. Okay. Let's take a, let's take a long deep breath in.
Let's give a really long, slow exhale. Let's bring it on down. By the way, that lowers blood pressure all the time. Mm-hmm. And when that happens, your physiologic, a responses can change. And now you're gonna ask yourself, where am I? What needs to be done? And it's how we're gonna do that. I love that. I love all that.
Liz Herl: It's just understanding the importance of. There's all types of different techniques out there, and a lot of the things we've talked about today regarding cognitive distortion and grounding techniques will be attached to our shown notes. Love it. So you'll have some, you know, tools that you can actually look at and review afterwards.
Mm-hmm. A little bit more in detail of what we're talking about
Tim Caldwell: today. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love it. we've covered pretty much everything. Mm-hmm. And I, I like how, I, like how this went. I want people to always understand, most importantly is we do not, I call it an illusion.[00:40:00]
We do not have control over everything you think you have control over. Now, not to freak people out is do the best you can at what you know, be on guard. Those things that come in, you handle, this is like driving your car in inclement weather. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's starting to snow, it's starting to blow.
It's starting to, I'm losing visibility. Okay. Slow down. Mm-hmm. Turn on your wipers. Mm-hmm. Call ahead. Mm-hmm. What's it like? Should I turn around, make, making those assessments, but also I can't control the weather. And maybe I need to do this another time. Mm-hmm. Maybe I'm not prepared for this trip right now.
Maybe. Or maybe I get a flat tire. Or maybe, maybe, maybe. Mm-hmm. That's the whole point is we don't know, but try to just understand. You can't control everything and there are things you can control and, and what you can control. Do your level, do be your level headed best to keep that under control.
Liz Herl: Learn how to be levelheaded right. And reality is. You don't want to have to control everything. That sounds miserable, right? That's right. The [00:41:00] idea that I would have to control everything is exhausting. The fact that you try to is exhausting. It is. So making sure that you're really trying to, again, be kind to yourself and identify what's going on and learn that I do not have control over all of this, and that's okay.
Tim Caldwell: And life is absolutely unpredictable. Yes.
Liz Herl: Yes. Yeah. That is the great thing about life. It's so unpredictable. As much as we try and control things the more we try and control them, the more out of control they get. I was sharing with you earlier that with the racing mind mentality won't.
An individual gets fixated on a concern and a worry, and then they start trying to manage how to address this fear, this uncertainty, this concern, and they're building up ways. Well, but if I could do this and then I could do this and I can do this, and the whole thing that this is transpiring in the body and.
Is more and more stress and more, but in your mind you're perceiving I'm releasing my anxiety by overthinking the problem.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. And
Liz Herl: [00:42:00] it's like, no, it's actually the counter of that.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah.
Liz Herl: And understanding how quickly we fall into those patterns Yeah. And learning to identify those things. Yeah.
So life is unpredictable. Yeah. You're never gonna know what comes next and it doesn't mean that you're powerless. Yeah. It just means that you have to adjust and learn how to respond and. Remember that when things start to fail outta control that it's okay. You have to take a minute. Mm-hmm.
You know, the pause and recalibrate self. I wish we utilize that more often. Yeah. Especially on social media. But yeah, if we could just take a minute, recollect ourselves, but there's such a, push of, again. Quick to respond, quick to do something. Mm-hmm. You are in control of how you quickly respond to anything they can wait.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. You know what, Liz, now that you mention that this impulsivity, this quick to react thing. Mm-hmm. The very best at people who are good in not just linguistics, but communication is when things like that happen. Stop.[00:43:00]
And then proceed. Slow everything down, take a look. And that's, that's, this was a great topic, Liz. This was, this was one that was I'm glad we did. I hope that the viewers and the listeners got a chance to listen in and we always invite people to, look, listen, join, comment. Mm-hmm. Please share.
It's how our podcast is gonna grow.
Podcast Growth and Community Engagement
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Tim Caldwell: We're a little past midway to where our initial goals are for our podcast in anchored in chaos. We're looking now to expand into Patreon and we're gonna continue to push. We're now into our second. Second season. Ish. Ish. And now that we've kind of broken the ice, Liz and I are.
Determined now to put our names out there a little bit more and do all the hard work we possibly can, but we need to hear from you. We love your comments. We're on all the platforms,
Liz Herl: right?
Tim Caldwell: I can
Liz Herl: hardly wait to do public speaking. I just bursting at scenes to do that. Oh, Liz. But real quick, I do wanna add a little plug to our Patreon.
We just [00:44:00] started that. Yeah. Within the Patreon community. Mm-hmm. We are hoping that listeners and followers would love to go on and become Agents of Chaos.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. That
Liz Herl: is my son
Tim Caldwell: will love that name.
Liz Herl: Yes. That is a little you know, opportunity for our listeners to kind of get bonus material behind the scenes looks of what we do.
We do a lot of pre-show stuff. We were just talking about that kind of goofballs. On the show and off the show. And just a little bit more insight as well. There is also an opportunity for our Agents of chaos members to have bonus material, which I already mentioned, but some live q and a with Dr.
Caldwell and I on Questions, ideas,
Tim Caldwell: yeah.
Liz Herl: Insight, anything of that nature. And it's pretty simple. It's like five bucks a month. Yep. So pretty easy we're to do. Yep. We're gonna do a free trial too. Right. Free seven day trial to kind of get all the extras in to see what it looks like before you fully commit to the process.
Yeah. But you know, our goal is to get support for the podcast. It is, doesn't run on its own. I can guarantee that.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. This is more [00:45:00] expensive than people realize. The people on the production side, Brian and the people he, the, the people he work with, they're amazing.
Mm-hmm. But. We're, we're not as fumbling as we were. Mm-hmm. And we're more, a little bit more get there focused to what we're doing, but we still enjoy it. And I know Liz and I have talked about this in the past. We're not in this to make money. We really want to serve others. But if this could pay for itself.
That is, that is the beautiful, that is, that is the prayer for me. That is, that is absolutely right.
Liz Herl: Is that it, that it that we get enough support that that is something that helps us. We love doing that. Yeah. We definitely wanna continue to reach out and touch people's lives and be an encourager if possible.
And just give everyone some. Helpful thoughts if possible. Yeah, that's true. And go from there, I guess. And,
Tim Caldwell: Look for me over on the genuine effort. Yeah. LLC on, I'm on all the platforms too, so Liz and I are trying to work all this stuff out where we have remotes visit us on both.
You can comment and question us on both, but we'll probably set a Patreon thing up there at [00:46:00] some point. But that has to do with training. And Liz knows, I believe that gyms are churches. In that we have a chance to share our fellowship. But not only that, it's just wisdom and encouragement through our lives.
And that's where all this coaching stuff comes from. I've been doing it for almost 40 years and I love it. And that's, that's what makes our mix so tangible to me, is that we get a chance to reach out to people who are in need of help. And that's all we really want to do.
Liz Herl: And everyone, please wish Dr.
Caldwell a very happy birthday today. It is his birthday. Aw. I'm 21. So what he wants to do for his birthday is record on the podcasts.
Tim Caldwell: I can drink a beer now.
Liz Herl: Right? Thanks everyone.
Tim Caldwell: Thanks guys. See you later. [00:47:00]