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Unashamed Unafraid is a show dedicated to being unashamed about sexual addiction recovery and unafraid of coming unto Christ for healing. Pornography and sexual addiction are not something you are stuck with to manage your whole life. We share real stories of recovery, the best resources, information from experts, and answer anonymous questions with those who know. All to help you on the path of being 100% healed from pornography and sexual addiction.
Sam: Welcome to another episode of
Unashamed, Unafraid: Unashamed of
Sexual Addiction Recovery and Unafraid
of Coming Under Christ for Healing.
Chris, how are you today, my friend?
Fan-freaking-tastic, man.
It was good to connect with
you in between recordings.
Since the last recording I went to
Warrior Heart, which was really cool.
Sam (2): A Check-in on recovery for me
is, we just released, not too long ago
the, Live Unashamed episode, on repair.
It's called Making Repair.
That's episode 213, I believe.
And in that episode, I made a commitment.
I realized there's one person in my life
at least that I knew, man, I messed up
in a big way and hurt them really bad,
and I never went back and repaired.
I never asked for forgiveness.
I never apologized, and
that was my sister-in-law.
A little backstory on that.
I actually tried to basically restart her
computer so I could log in the back way
and, like, look at porn on her computer.
This was when, this was, like,
probably seven or eight years ago.
And she had a document on
there that she had not saved
for her business that she- Hmm
had spent hours compiling, and it
was just, this was the point in my
recovery that it was out of control.
I hurt so many people that year.
It was very hard, to face myself
and realize that I did that to
someone who I cared so much about.
And she is such a great
part of our family.
Like, we have always just felt
so blessed, , that we have her.
Chris: Did she know it was you that did
Sam: it at the time?
She totallyâ¦
Yeah, she did.
She did.
But we never actually had a d-
direct confrontation about it, ' my
brother came to me about it.
And so always felt guilty about it, and
it actually wasn't until the episode
was released and I listened to it that I
remembered, "Oh, I haven't done that yet."
I paused the episode, I called her up
in the middle of it, and I just said,
"Hey, McCall, I am so sorry," and I, Iâ¦
And she s- funny, she said
she didn't even remember.
I almost don't believe her.
But it was such a healing conversation,
because for the first time in my
relationship with her, I got vulnerable.
Chris: Mm.
That's
Sam: cool, man.
And we went it was really special.
Super, super healing.
And you may have times when you
go for repair that it doesn't end
up being a connecting experience.
I would still say those are times
that I've learned and grown.
But, just re- really, really cool
update on my story and my recovery.
I feel like I'm just at this point where
so many of my relationships are healing.
So- Love that, man ⦠that's
how recovery's going for me.
Heck yeah.
So our guest today is Mike Allen.
He's, from the Here Bros.
I, I don't even know how to
introduce you, because you do
so many different things, dude.
So go ahead and introduce yourself.
Mike: Sure.
All right.
So yeah, I'm Mike Allen.
I mean, first off, I'm a son of
God, I'm a husband, I'm a father.
In terms of my professional work,
so my background was actually
in branding and graphic design.
Hmm.
And a few years ago, four or five years
ago, I had a total pivot in, in my
career, and there's a whole story to
that that I won't get into right now.
But I Basically shifted my focus
to doing, I guess, what you
would call men's work now, right?
Or as you put it, going
after the hearts of men.
I like that.
Yep.
And the, that transition, I mean,
there were a few key elements
that led to those changes.
I was already feeling called to do some
kind of retreats or gatherings for men
to go a little deeper, than what we
usually get in just day-to-day experiences
in connecting with our brothers.
And we have communities in, in church,
and in maybe people get together
and play sports and all that kind of
stuff, but it's, it's not as common
to really go deep in those connections
and in those relationships, and that
was just something that I saw wasâ¦
it really was the example of my wife.
She was, doing retreats.
She's a yoga instructor.
She's a mindfulness, um, guide or coach,
and she was doing these gatherings.
And it just, it felt more common to me.
Like, oh yeah, women do retreats, but,
like, men don't really do retreats.
And I was kind of oblivious to all
the stuff that's out there now.
But at the time, I just
was unaware, right?
And so after she would do these
experiences, and we were doing some
things, with our family that were really
important, there was a point in time in
which I was sort of going through, like,
a little bit of career/job insecurity
and had this really horrible, like,
performance review, which was kind ofâ¦
That was different for me at the time.
Usually they had gone fine and well,
and I was, like, good , and just
had this really terrible phase of
my career where I was like, "Wow,
I, I don't even know what I'm doing.
I don't know if I'm good at my job."
It led to a lot of feelings of, shame,
self-doubt, fear, all kinds of messiness.
For sure.
I came home from this terrible performance
review And was talking to my wife and, and
she just l- she's really good at, like,
holding space and just listening, and I
was just dumping, all of the crap that
had happened and all my feelings about it.
And after I finally finished,
getting it all out, she was
like, "Can I say something now?"
And I was like, "Yes."
And she, just this genuine loving
smile, 'cause I thought she would
m- be dysregulated or kind of
freaked out about, like, we mightâ¦
I might be getting fired.
We might need to move.
All this stuff, right?
She just held space beautifully.
She smiled, and she said, "Mike, I
actually think this is a good thing."
Hmm.
"Because it's gonna push you/us
to, like, figure out what
we really want to be doing."
And what I thought was gonna be this
weekend of, like, searching for a new job
and, and being stressed out, it was this
incredible, incubator that we sat down,
and we asked the most important questions.
Like, what do we really care about?
What is our purpose as a
family, as individuals?
We just started writing and exploring and
talking and, like, blue sky questions.
Like, hey- Yeah ⦠if money were
no object, if we didn't have to
live here now, where would we live?
What would we do?
What would life look like?
Just hypothetical, right?
But it just opened up so many
beautiful ideas and desires.
And, a- and to do that together
with her, it was, it was incredible.
So we had this powerful, amazing weekend.
By the way, I go back to work.
I don't get fired.
I don't lose my job.
I get a different boss.
Things go great at work again, but we
got this incredible document out of it.
We turned it into a document.
It's our family crest now.
So we designed, I, as a designer-
Heck yeah ⦠I designed,
like, a modern family crest.
That's cool.
We wrote out our core values, our guiding
principles, and our purpose statement.
We got our kids involved.
Like, "Hey, what do you think of this?"
We got their input, and
so we created this thing.
And we were like, "This
is what it's all about."
And I had this epiphany moment of,
"Wow, all this training and experience
I've had in branding," which is helping
organizations, like, get to their
essence, get to their why, right?
And then how is it expressed
visually, verbally, et cetera.
I was applying all that same knowledge
and all those principles to our own
family, and suddenly it, it just clicked.
Like, "Oh, all these years of work
that I've been doing, I can now apply
it to the thing that matters most
to me," and it was so fulfilling.
It was so powerful , to do that.
'Cause there were times where I was like
what I even do, does it even matter?
Mm-hmm.
You know?
Like, I'm like- Yeah,
Chris: right
Mike: just making branding
guidelines and logos and whatever.
I'm like, "Does this
even make a difference?
Like, is it helping people?"
So it was just this beautiful epiphany
moment of, like, figuring that out, right?
So that's part of the story.
I had to share that, uh, for context of
a few years later, I'm thi- I'm trying
to think about, like, what, what would
a men's version of a retreat look like?
'Cause I'm, I've seen what my wife was
doing and I'm like, " what would be
cool for guys to, like, get together
and not just do manly stuff and, like,
chop wood or throw axes or whatever?"
But I'm like, "How would
we, like, go deeper?"
You know?
Yeah.
And, uh, not knowing all the stuff
that was out there, my wife had
one, resource, Brian Hurd- Yep.
Love- ⦠who was doing The
Evolution Project ⦠love Brian
Chris: Hurd, man.
Yeah.
He's, the guy's awesome.
Mike: Yes.
You guys knowâ¦
Well, you know him, at least.
Uh- Yep ⦠and she was friends fr-
with him from high school, and so she
introduced us, and she said, "Well, I
think you should meet Brian 'cause he's
doing this kind of thing, and you could
just see what he's up to, you know?"
And I was like, "Okay, yeah.
Why not?"
And, So he, he shows up, we meet,
and he's like, "I'm doing a retreat
this weekend and you have to come."
It was like two days or three days
later, and I was sort of like, " Whoa,
I had all the fears and apprehensions
of going to a men's retreat that I now
hear from so many guys of like, "Well,
I don't know what it's gonna be like.
I don't know who's gonna be there.
What are they gonna say?
Is it gonna be weird or awkward?"
And I mean, you guys are s- so far
on the other side of that, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, do you remember what it was like
for the like- ⦠like the first time
? Sam: Yeah, I'm trying to get my
father-in-law right now to go.
Yeah.
And he's like, "Are
they gonna like hug me?"
Right.
Yes.
Totally.
It's just, you never know- Totally
what it's gonna be like,
Mike: right?
You know?
Yes.
I had all the apprehensions,
all the reasons not to do
it, and M- Brian was awesome.
I was really hesitant to invest in
myself and to take time away because
I judged it as being like selfish.
But when I dug a little deeper,
what I really discovered is that
I felt like I was undeserving
of the investment of time and energy.
Sam: Wow.
Mike: And that was a, a breakthrough
before I even went to the retreat.
Like that was a powerful-
Wow ⦠realization.
And so going to it, it was incredible.
I learned a ton.
Brian knew I was thinking of doing
something similar, and he just had this
spirit of like collaboration, openness.
He's like, "Dude, I love that
you are feeling called to this.
Like come to mine.
Let's talk about it after.
I wanna hear what you do.
I wanna come to yours when you do yours."
You know, which, which he did,
you know, a couple months later.
And so I just started doing
these, these retreats.
And ifâ¦
We started small, six or seven
or eight guys at a time, and we
our, ours had a, a pretty heavy
spiritual focus, which was a little
different than the way Brian's was,
but, uh, still powerful, right?
Mm-hmm.
So we went kinda deeper in that realm.
I had this incredible experience
with breathwork meditation,
that Louis Hamner facilitated
. Chris: And- If, if you guys have not
experienced breathwork, I would absolutely
recommend because I, I ser- Iâ¦
Like me and you were talking about
it, and I have seriously had two of
the most spiritual experiences I've
ever had in my life doing breathwork.
Yeah.
It's incredible.
Just unreal.
It's in- Just beautiful, beautiful
experiences with God- Yes ⦠with my
mom, who passed away when, in, uh, 2014.
And like- awesome experiences.
Mike: Wow.
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing.
I mean, I, I had done some
meditation prior to that,
and this was just different.
It was, it was totally different
from the others that I had done.
Yeah.
And it was such a powerful tool
at just cracking my heart open,
helping me kinda see things more
clearly, and then to just release.
I mean, I had the, the most
intense, like, ugly cry experience.
Like, just so much was,
being processed and let go.
And when all thatâ¦
I mean, I had the, the shame, the
self-doubt, the criticism, the judgment,
the feeling lost, the feeling stuck.
All of it just, like, m- melted out
of me, and then it created so much
space for God's love to pour in.
Chris: Dude, isn't
Mike: that
Chris: crazy?
Mike: And I felt it from Him first,
and then I could feel it for myself-
Mm ⦠which was like this breath of fresh
air, no pun intended . And then Right?
And then I felt it for, like, I thought
of, like, my wife and each of my kids,
and I, it was just this abundance of pure
love, like, unconditional, amazing love.
It was so powerful.
Chris: Sam, have you, have
you ever done that before?
Sam: I haven't done breathwork.
Done this kind of breathwork?
People keep trying to
tell me to do breathwork.
Oh.
In fact, I'm go- I mean, I'm going to the
retreat in about a, a week, a week or so.
Oh, you're gonna experience
some breathwork, man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chris: You're, I'm going.
Sam: Yeah.
So that'll be interesting toâ¦
But I, my friends keep telling me,
like, "Dude, you gotta do breathwork."
It's great.
"You gotta doâ¦"
Even though I've had s- I've done so
many different recovery things now.
I'm like- Yeah ⦠"That
sounds intense, dude."
Mike: And here's the thing.
Like, I'll just say it's best to
go in with without expectations.
Totally.
And that's the hard thing about it is
because so many people have these powerful
experiences, and then people show up,
and they're like, "Okay, w- I'm ready.
Like, what's it gonna be?"
And then they're in their
heads about it, you know?
In my own practice, I've had sessions that
are really powerful, and then I've had
others where I'm like, "Oh, time's up.
Okay."
Like, I, I, I'm done.
Yeah.
And I'm like, "Well, I g- I
got to at least breathe and
be still, and that's good."
You know?
So there's always benefit, but
sometimes it can just be so- Right
transformative, right?
So yeah, I f- I facilitate breathwork now.
I started small doing retreats, and
then I met some guys who, were starting
this men's movement, and they were,
they called it the HearBrotherhood,
and it's spelled H-E-A-R-E, which is
both spellings of hear put together.
So I'm here, like I'm present,
H-E-R-E, and I hear you, right?
I'm listening.
And-
Chris: I was wondering whyâ¦
I'm like, "Why is itâ¦
That's gotta be somebody's,
like, last name."
Yeah.
I thought it was as well, right?
Yeah.
Like that was something related to that.
But that, that's cool.
Mike: Yeah, that's where it comes from.
Where you guys did- We always
have to explain it to people
'cause it's not super intuitive.
right.
Sometimes people are like,
"Oh, he are," and we're like,
"Oh, well, it's just hear."
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, but one of our slogans that helps it
connect for people is I'm here to hear..
I'm here to hear.
So I met those guys.
Wasn't planning on that turning into
anything, but eventually they were likeâ¦
They came to one of my retreats, and
they were like, "We gotta do this w-
as part of this thing, and we want
you to be a co-founder with us."
And so we, we launched the
HearBrotherhood, and it's been
going for a few years now, and
we've done several retreats.
We've done, I don't know,
probably four or five different
states, and, including Hawaii.
We did one in Oahu- Oh, that's
awesome ⦠a while back.
It was super cool.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
Uh, Idaho, Arizona , Utah.
We've done several in Utah now.
And, uh, it's, it's just been the most
fulfilling, amazing work, of my life.
So that's, that's the long introduction.
Yeah.
And I didn't even talk about any of
the, like, porn and recovery stuff yet.
Well, no, it's
Sam: great.
I mean, what you wereâ¦
Y- you've kinda set a basis.
Like, there's obviously some
healing that has happened, man.
Yeah.
So tell us your story.
Mike: Yeah.
Well, uh, l- where to even start?
I mean, early exposure as, as
it is for most people, right?
Um-
Sam: How old?
Mike: I r- I was probably, like, 9 or 10.
Yeah.
And I had a, a older
friend who was likeâ¦
He justâ¦
See, this is, this is
like pre-internet, right?
So he had some kindaâ¦
It was, like, a picture or, like, a card
or whatever, and he, like, showed me this
thing, and he was like, "Check this out."
And it actually didn't
have the effect of, likeâ¦
I wasn't like, "Wow, what isâ¦"
You know, it didn't strike
this curiosity in me.
I was actually kind of repulsed by it.
Hmm.
I was like, "Oh," like,
"no, that's notâ¦"
You know?
Chris: You're, you're 9 or 10 years old.
You probably don't know what to think.
Yeah.
You're
Mike: like,
" Chris: Okay."
Mike: Yeah, it was, like, weird,
confusing, and I was like, "Why would he
want a picture of, like, a naked lady?"
Like, what?
Mm-hmm.
What is even the point of that, right?
Right.
Uh, but f- for context, I think
this is important 'cause this has
been a part of, of my just stepping
into more and more awareness of, of
what's going on in my psyche, right?
My parents divorced when I was one or two.
My mom r- uh, got married to, to a,
a really good man who's, I call him
my dad, and when I was about seven.
And what's interesting about that
age range in, in, uh, behavioral
development and childhood development,
the, the leading sort of theory
on this is that most of us develop
our core beliefs about the world,
about ourselves, about our place in
it from the ages of zero to seven.
Like that's, that's pretty, like commonly
believed in, in those fields, right?
It's like held up as, as a pretty
like- Yeah, I've heard that
as well ⦠prominent thing.
So I think about that.
I'm like, okay, in those, in
those formative key years, I
didn't have a father at home.
It was, it was my mom and
my four older sisters.
That's- Mm ⦠that's the
like environment I grew up in.
Chris: So not a lot of
masculinity put in there.
Mike: Wow.
Exactly.
And I, I make the connections now
of like, why am I drawn to do this
men's work and like brotherhood?
And I'm like, well, it's probably
filling a gap- Yes ⦠or a
hole that I had from early on.
Huge hole.
Right?
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
So interesting just context there.
Thankfully, I had an amazing male,
role model and dad, from Sevenon,
which, which was honestly like,
I mean, changed my life, right?
Uh, for- forever for the good.
But , You know, I still
had those influences and
examples from other sources.
So after that initial exposure, that's
the one I remember as, like, the first.
But it was later on where it was kind
of this just easing into, you know,
we had Victoria's Secrets at home, and
the Sports Illustrated, Swimsuit Issue
would be just around, , I didn't really
start to feel the, the draw and the
pull until probably, like, mid-teens.
And that's when I started toâ¦
And it was interesting 'cause I even, I
felt like I observed some of my friends
and their older brothers and whatever,
and it was, they, like, modeled it to me.
Like, "This is, this is what it looks like
to, like, lust after a woman," basically.
Like, you know, like, huddle around
and look at it, and be like, "Oh," and,
you know, talk about it and whatever,
and that was, like, kind of new to me.
Mm.
You know, I just hadn't really
seen that, prior, uh, you
know, growing up or whatever.
And so I was kind of just like, "Oh," I,
I think there were part, parts of me that
were going, "Oh, this is what it means
to, like, be one of the boys," you know?
Yeah.
"To be a man."
For sure.
Like, I, I just, that was
what was being modeled.
So anyway, just repeated a- and
sort of progressive exposure
during those years, having cable at
home with some of those channels.
You know, I'd stay up kind
of flipping channels, seeing-
Chris: Seeing
Mike: what you can see ⦠if
something would show up, you know?
Yeah.
And there was kind of the thrill
of the hunt with that, you know?
And then, uh, internet came along,
and I had a crazy friend who figured
out how to, like, hack into AOL.
This is so old school, right?
Yeah.
And he figured out how to hack in and
get free access to the internet, and that
wasn't a good thing for me, you know?
Mm-hmm.
So that's, that led to more just curiosity
and searching and exploring and whatnot.
All along, I felt a lot of secrecy
and, and shame around this stuff
'cause I had been taught that,,
especially in my, in my church context,
like, this is just, this is bad.
This is evil.
This is filth.
There was some strong language that
were coming from the highest church
authorities at the time, and when I
would hear those messages, I sort of
conflated, like, "Well, I've, I've been
involved in this stuff, and therefore, I
am all those things that he just said."
Sam: Yeah.
" Mike: I am filth."
Enter
Sam: shame.
Mike: Oh, yeah.
Like- Yeah ⦠"I'm filth.
I'm the worst.
This is the most addictive
thing ever," da-da-da, and I'm
like- What do I do with this?
And so I, I felt confident enough
to, um, talk to, like, you know,
my, my church leaders locally.
I didn't talk to anybody else.
I mean, I didn't talk to my parents.
Yeah.
I didn't talk to anybody.
This was just, like, my s- my secret.
Yeah.
Sam: I'm curious.
Uh, I grew up with four sisters, right?
Yeah.
Very strong, and my mom's
a very strong woman, right?
Yeah.
Like, a, a very strong
feminine presence in my home.
I'm curious, did that impact you at all?
Like, did you have shame about the male
sexuality piece of that growing up with
really only, uh, s- before the age of
seven, female figures in your life?
Mike: Yeah, I mean, there's, there's
a few things I could say about that.
One is that- the influence of, of my
sisters, it was very, it was, it was
varied because they're so different.
Mm-hmm.
They're so, so different, and some were
very open about talking about, like,
sexuality and whatnot, and some were
not, and there was a lot of kind of
shaming, within the family about, like,
puberty and sex and all that stuff.
So there was just, a lot of weirdness
and some baggage around that.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
Mike: My mom she went
through some rough, divorces.
She had been married a couple
times, divorced a couple times.
She was in and out of
depression, quite a bit.
She also was very resilient.
I mean, she survived some
really gnarly experiences.
And there were times where I felt
close to her and times where I felt
a little more distant just because
of where she was at in her process,
but I'd say that there was kind of a
casualness about, sexuality, aboutâ¦
I mean, they would watch stuff at
home with me there that was clearly,
like, inappropriate for children
. Sure.
But it would just be on the TV- Right
⦠and they'd sort of comment about it
or joke about it or- there was just a
different vibe than- Right ⦠than, like,
how we, we do it in our home now, right?
Chris: What's funny is, is a lot of
people will joke about it because
they are uncomfortable with it.
Mike: Yeah,
Chris: totally.
And so they try to make light of it or be,
uh, be funny with it or whatever because-
Yeah ⦠they're uncomfortable, too.
Mike: Yeah.
Beats
Sam: sitting in silence, you know?
Mike: Totally.
So yeah- ⦠there was, there was, I,
I guess, a bit of that, but I wouldn't,
I, I don't have an association of
like, "Oh, man, I have all these, like,
really, strong women in my life, and
now I'm, like, betraying them somehow."
Sure.
Or, like, uh, uh, is that kinda
what you were getting at with
Sam: your- Yeah, that's,
that's- ⦠experience?
⦠been my story.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so I was wondering if it's similar,
but it sounds like it didn't affect
you in the same way because the- Yeah
⦠environment was a little bit different-
Yeah ⦠growing up in your house.
Mike: Yeah.
Sam: I mean- We were much more
conservative, and that, that
really affected me- Yeah ⦠kind
of in a shame-inducing way, so.
Mike: For sure.
Sam: Yeah.
Mike: Well, I, I had that,
too, from other influences.
Yeah.
So it was a, a nice cocktail mixture of-
⦠like , of, like, we're casual about it
and maybe a little careless, and we're
super, you know, shame-based about it.
Yeah.
And I had those influences,
or very secretive, right?
I think a, a big moment for me in this
whole story, , when I was about 18, I
got the whole story about why my parents
got divorced and about what my dad
was dealing with and struggling with.
Chris: So did you have any
kind of relationship with
your, your biological father?
Mike: I did, yeah.
Youâ¦
Okay.
Yeah.
It was kind of sparse.
We didn't hang out a lot,
but we'd see him on occasion.
We'd sometimes go on a weekend trip
together or just out to lunch or
dinner, you know, sporadically.
, And I had vague, a vague idea
of, oh, you know, there was some
infidelity or he had some issues.
That was about it.
So I was sheltered from,
knowing what really happened.
And then when I was about 18, I got, like,
the TMI version, like the whole story with
a lot of details and a lot of, intense
stuff because there was an article that
had been written about sexual addiction,
and it was my biological father who was,
like, the main character of the story.
Wow.
And he agreed- Oh, really?
He agreed to be interviewed about it and
to, like, tell his story, and then he,
he was sharing it with me, in a way to
kinda connect and just be open and, and
I can see the good in that, and I also
was pretty devastated by what I read.
Sam: Yeah.
Mike: Um, heâ¦
Yeah, he had a, a sexual addiction
, and it was with just tons of
different partners and mostly men.
So there was, like, a homosexuality
component which, this was back in
like, the late '70s and '80s when
this was all going on, which, totally
different world at that time- Totally,
Speaker 4: yeah
⦠Mike: for, for same-sex attraction
or, or experiences, right?
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Mike: Even when I heard this, which
was in the '90s, it still hadn't
come to where it is now- Sure
where there's more just
understanding and, and acceptance.
So there was just pretty intense, shame
and, and feelings and judgment and
fear around that because I immediately
thought of, of what does this mean
about me because I've struggled
with, pornography and masturbation
and I hadn't had the same, uh, s-
same-sex attraction, that he did.
But it just instilled in me
this like, whoa, this is, like,
in my blood- Hmm ⦠you know?
Like, and what does this
mean about me and my future?
And it was just a very
scary thing to carry.
So that was wild.
The, beautiful side of that whole
story was that he was working
on, , becoming re-baptized into
the church that we belong to.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
Mike: And Before I left to serve a
two-year mission, I baptized him.
Sam: Wow.
Mike: He was my first baptism that I
ever performed, was my own dad- How
cute ⦠like, coming back to the church.
Wow.
Which was pretty-
Chris: That's cool, man.
Mike: What was that like for
Sam: you?
Mike: I mean, it was surreal.
Iâ¦
It, it was actuallyâ¦
It was, it was a beautiful thing, but I
also had a little bit of this underlying
like, can I be okay with what I learned
about him and, and be okay doing this?
And there was this betrayal to my
mom and what does this mean for me?
And so I s- I still was carrying
some, fear and shame around it.
Sure, yeah.
No, it, it, it wasn't just easy and bliss.
Yeah.
It was kinda like, "Ooh, I have to face
some stuff- Yeah ⦠in this process."
I was gonna say, I
Chris: bet
Sam: you that was very
instructive for you.
Mike: Yeah.
, I went and served a, a two-year
mission, came back and, a few years
later, I met, I started dating my wife,
. at this point, so my, my struggle
it wasn't the kinda thing where it
was every day or even every week.
It was a little more spread out, and it
didn't feel like this, you know, big,
heavy, life-disrupting part of my life.
It, it would come up every so often.
I'd be like, "Ah," you know, I'd feel
the shame . Go talk to somebody about
it, like a, a, a bishop or church leader.
I'd go, you know, through that process.
And I just had this feeling like it'll
all be fine when, you know, I get
married, and this is no longer gonna be
a thing, right ? So I'm dating- It'll
Chris: go away.
Mike: Yeah, it'll just go away.
So I'm, I'm dating my wife.
I haven't told her about it 'cause
I'm kinda like, "Oh, I don'tâ¦
Like, if we don't need
to bring it up, great."
You know, I'd rather not
have to talk about this.
And, , I was living out in New York
for a while doing an internship, had
struggled a little bit while I was
there, and talked to a bishop there.
The bishop there was like, "Hey,"
like, "you're, you're getting
married soon," 'cause I, I had, I
had already, um, gotten engaged.
And so he saidâ¦
He basically was like, "You're
getting married soon," like, "It's
all, it's all gonna be good,"
like, "Just proceed," you know?
Really?
And so I came home from New York
We, my wife and I switched, wards
or congregations where there was a
different,, leader, a different bishop in
that ward, and he was like, "Hey, I wanna
meet with you guys before you get, you go
get sealed," like, individually, right?
And so I go and show up, and I
actually am feeling kinda nervous
because I'm like, "Oh, here's an, a
new gatekeeper," like a new bishop.
Yeah.
Sure.
And this bishop has this, power to say
like, "Yeah, you can go get married in the
temple," or, "I'm gonna take your, your
temple recommend and you can't go into the
temple because you're not worthy," right?
So I had this fear going into
it of like, "Well, what if he
has a different view than what I
experienced in New York," right?
And my greatest fears were confirmed.
So this is about two weeks before we
were- Oh ⦠supposed to get married.
Chris: Wait, so, so your previous
bishop gives you the recommend.
Mike: Well, I, I had it already.
You had it already.
Yeah.
And then I go- Was
Chris: okay with it.
Yeah.
And then this new bishop takes it away.
Mike: So I go see this new bishop,
and he looks at me and he's
like, " Can I see that recommend?"
You know, so I hand it to him,
and he asked me point-blank if I
struggled with pornography, and Iâ¦
And that's not one of the normal
questions that are, is asked.
And I- Right ⦠and I said that I,
that I had, and I told him like, "Well,
I talked to this bishop in New York
and we, we sorted it out," and, and
he's like, "Well, I'll look into that."
And he's like, "I'm gonna hold onto this."
And it just turned into
this insane story ofâ¦
So he, he con- he
connects with that bishop.
The bishop kind of vaguely
doesn't really recall i- 'cause
he meets with a lot of people.
We didn't have a very close relationship.
I was there for a couple months, you know?
Sure.
And he's like, "Yeah," and he's,
he's like, "We, I talk to a lot
of guys," like, "I don't know.
I don't remember what I
said to this guy," you know?
And so then this new bishop thinks
I'm, like, being deceptive or
maybe I'm, I'm lying or- What?
and he's picking up on the fact that I was
nervous and, and when somebody's nervous
in that context, like, I don't blame him.
He probably was like, "I don't
know what's going on with this
kid, but he's kinda freaked out."
Yeah.
"And, and I'm getting these different
stories," like, "I don't, I don't think
he's ready and, uh- You know- as I, like,
reflect on this whole experience, there
were times where I sort of viewed this,
this bishop and then another, another
church leader who was kinda like above
him called the stake president, who
also was like, "Yeah, you, you know,
you've struggled within the last year.
You can't, you can't go
get married in the temple.
Like, you're not ready."
For some reason, it was, like, one
year was the time limit that they
deemed as, like, the okay timeframe.
. So our, our wedding was, was
canceled, because of this.
Wow.
And my wife's parents had already bought
tickets to fly in from across the world,
'cause they were living out in Abu Dhabi.
Other family members had their,
their hotels and their flights
booked and everything, and they
decided to come anyway to support,
my wife primarily and me , too,
to some degree, which was cool.
But also, it was, I mean,
talk about, like- So
Chris: did you guys just get
married somewhere else and just-
Mike: We didn't.
So my wife was like, "I am determined.
Like, I want to get
married in the temple."
Hmm.
And there was a time where we said,
"Are we even gonna get married
any, you know, at this point?"
'Cause, uh, by the way, she
grew up with all sisters.
She was just like, it was very
shocking to her, and we had some hard
conversations about, you know, what this
was and, and I was trying to probably
tell her, like, "It's pretty common.
Like, I'm not a psycho orâ¦"
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Right.
Uh, itâ¦
And she's just a very
pure-hearted person, so- You start
Chris: throwing your
buddies under the bus.
You're like- ⦠"See?
Look at Mike.
Look at Jerry."
And like, "Go talk to them.
They all struggle with it, too."
. Mike: So that, that was, like, I
mean, those were some of the hardest,
uh, weeks of, of my life- Wow
and some of the most traumatic
and, and devastating.
And we decided to take a break for a
little while, and it was, it was only
a few weeks later that she, came back.
We, you know, we, we were kind of,
like, zero contact for a little
while- Hmm ⦠and then let's, let's
reunite and see how we're feeling.
And there was a time,, when we reunited
And we were just driving in her car,
and I didn't see, but she grabbed my
hand and put it on hers so that I could
feel that she still had the ring on.
Wow.
Mm.
It was, like, the most
touching, emotional moment.
Of redemption, of hope, of grace.
It was beautiful.
Sam: Yeah, that's special, man.
Yeah,
Mike: yeah.
. And so it wasn't until, I don't
know, several months later of
the next, you know, the next year
that we, that we did get married.
Mm.
And what's kind of amazing in this,
like, beauty for ashes of, of all of
this, one, like, we went to some deep
places before even getting married.
And after having all those hard
conversations and working through stuff,
Chris: I mean- That you
were forced into having,
Mike: right?
Yes, yes.
It was like we could get through anything.
Like, we saw each other in crisis.
We saw each other in the p-
Chris: And we showed up.
Mike: Yes.
It was like in- instead of tearing
each other down or attacking
or getting defensive or whatâ¦
I mean, there was some
defensiveness, for sure.
But, , instead of, like, turning away
from each other, we turned towards
each other in crisis, and towards God,
and that has been the, that's been,
like, a, a bedrock of our relationship.
Chris: So you got married- Yeah ⦠and
the addiction totally goes away, right?
Mike: It just totally vanished.
It was so cool.
Dang.
Yeah.
If only.
It's, it's like magic.
If only, yeah.
No, the, the struggle continued and,
I don't remember vividly, like, the
first time that I struggled after
we were married, but, yeah, it was,
it was tough to have to say, "Hey,
this, I, I still, I'm still having
a hard time with this," you know?
Right.
, And this was, over several years of
our married life, and,, she- Vacillated
between being, trying to be just really
understanding and supportive to being
very frustrated and angry and, and
upset and, never really got to the
place of like, "I'm kicking you out,"
or this ultimatum, you know, "If it
happens one more time, then da, da, da."
Like we, it ne- it never got to
that level , in terms of our, our
dynamic, which I, just am in awe
of, of her willingness to, to be
committed i- in spite of the struggle.
And I started to, you know, explore
different things that would help, so
I, I did some, group meetings, like the
12-step group meetings, which immediately
had a, a difficult time with the
introduction of saying, "I am an addict."
Mm-hmm.
Uh, I just felt an, uh, automatic,
like, repulsion to that.
And I, I got the spirit of like being
honest with yourself and disclosing and
being able to talk about it, but I, I
really, the, the label just, I felt such
friction with the label of addict, and
I, I didn't know how helpful that would
be for my journey,, for my process.
Mm-hmm.
So I resisted that, and I think I just
said that I'm, you know, a recovering,
or you know, I, I added something in
there that like softened it for me.
Sure.
But I've since come to believe
that our, our words are powerful.
They have the power to create,
and I don't use that term.
I-
Sam: I, I love that-
Yeah ⦠you say that.
I mean, that's, we, we're
pretty close to publishing the
Unashamed and Unafraid guidebook.
We're gonna run men's groups.
Mm-hmm.
And we're, we were very clear,
uh, the authors We're not going
to use that language, right?
Mm-hmm.
When we introduce ourselves,
'cause words matter.
Yeah.
And, and to many men, that has
been a very, very important
principle in their recovery.
Chris: Yeah.
Sam: I'm not an addict.
Mike: Yeah.
Sam: So, and- Love that, man.
Mike: Love that.
Thank you.
Well, and h- here's the
other thing I'll say.
I think we're all addicts, too.
Right?
Okay.
Everybody.
Do addicts- Is there an addict disorder?
Sure.
But yeah.
I didn't find those, those
groups super helpful.
They were somewhat helpful.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I, I know I benefited from
them at the time, but really what has
been the most helpful for me is, what
I would just say is, is doing the work
of the soul, like doing the inner work.
And it's ongoing, and I'm
continuing to do my inner work.
Chris: So how did you learn about that?
Like, to, to know what that
inner work is going to be.
Mike: Yeah.
Chris: Is it therapist?
Is it, like-
Mike: Like- No, no, not at all.
So I didn't, I didn't have, a particular
therapist or a particular group.
It was a lot of small influences
accumulating over time, and
research, and podcasts, and all
k- all kinds of online resources.
I mean- I know
Chris: a really good podcast
called Unashamedly Afraid.
Yes.
Super good about this
Mike: kind of stuff.
Highly recommend.
Yeah, yeah.
, You know which one I heard not
too long ago that was, that was,
and this is in recent history.
This was, Sarah Brewer.
Are you familiar with-
Yeah ⦠with her work?
Yeah, Sarah Brewer's awesome.
Yeah, like that one was, uh, it
just broke down things in such a way
that I was like, "Yes," you know?
It just resonated as a
lot of true principles.
But yeah,, I'm kind of a, a self-learner.
I'll just research stuff and
dig in and listen to things.
And so- Jungian psychology,
uh, I mean s- spirituality.
I had some incredible teachers while
we lived in New York about, who, who
just taught me with such, , clarity
about what is repentance- Mm-hmm
and what is, what is it not.
That's probably the, that was
probably the biggest shift for me,
the biggest turning point, because
it addressed the issue of shame,
which was at the root of this thing.
Totally.
Which I wasn't even fully
aware of prior to this, right?
I just thought, "Oh, this is just
this addictive thing, and it's just
hardwired in my brain, and it's just
gonna continue to be a problem until
somehow I break the cycle," right?
Yeah.
Sam: Yeah.
Turns out it's more than just dopamine.
Mike: Yes.
Sam: Yeah.
Mike: Yes.
And so, there were some church leaders
that were instrumental in this,
some amazing friends, community that
I had out, out there in New York.
And one of the most profound things
around the concept of repentance for
me was, the Greek word and the meaning.
So metanoia or metanoeo is the
Greek original word for repentance,
and it means a change of heart,
mind, spirit, and even breath.
Hmm.
Which is cool for breathwork.
Yeah, yeah.
Totally.
Right?
Totally.
Chris: Totally.
Mike: And there's this, this Bible
dictionary definition that says
that part, and then there's, like, a
semicolon or a em dash or something,
and then it says, "A fresh view of
oneself, of God, and of the world."
A fresh view.
And I had this friend who s- Love
that ⦠I had this friend who said,
"If you just saw that as the, the
definition of a word, a fresh view
of oneself, of God, and of the world,
what would you think that word was?"
Because for me it's not
intuitively repentance.
Sam: Yeah.
Mike: No.
Right?
Totally not.
Like, what would you th- any ideas?
Self-compassion.
Self-compassion?
Yeah.
Sam: Yeah.
I mean, now it would be
repentance, but growing up, no way.
Mike: Yeah.
Sam: No way would that
be repentance for me.
Mike: Totally.
The words he came up with, he
was like, "To me, that sounds
like having an epiphany."
A fresh view of oneself-
Yeah ⦠of God- Yeah
and of the world, or a breakthrough or-
Yeah, a breakthrough ⦠a revelation.
Speaker 4: Hmm.
Mike: A revelation.
And I was like, "Holy crap, what if
repentance means we're just receiving
revelation about our true nature
and about our relationship with God
and about our view of the world?"
By the way, all those things we
talked earlier about our core kind of
fundamental beliefs and perspectives
of the world from ages zero to seven.
Hmm.
What beliefs had I adopted about my
own sense of self, my own worth, my
own belonging, my fatherlessness at
the time, relationship with father,
relationship with God is often connected.
I mean, there was just so many things
that opened up for me in understanding
that word, and then suddenly this
association I had of shame with
repentance was like, phew, just melt away.
And it took time, right?
And I continued to learn about
this stuff and research it
and have experiences with it.
But I look at it now asâ¦
And this is how, in our church, they
talk about it more now as, as like
joyful repentance and daily repentance.
That's not how it sounded
to me when I was growing up.
Sure.
You know, it was like- Repentance
was scary ⦠you better not,
you better not have to repent.
In, on the '80s.
Like, that's what I, that's
what I felt like it was.
I felt like, "Here's the plan.
You wanna be perfectly obedient,
and hopefully you don't screw up.
But if you do, you have to go off
over here and do this, like, shameful
repentance process thing to get
back onto here, and hopefully you
have to never go do that again."
Yeah.
And what's ironic about that is,
like, that is the counterfeit plan.
That is like-
Chris: Totally
⦠Mike: that's the evil plan of-
Yeah ⦠there's no accountability,
there's no repentance.
It's just perfect obedience.
There's no growth.
There's no progress.
There's no opposition.
Totally.
Opposition is another piece of this
that just blew my mind, like the purpose
of opposition and the necessity for
it, and how often I wanted to avoid
opposition or pretend it wasn't there.
Yeah.
And this gets into even Jungian
psychology of shadow work.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, there's, you know, the parts of
us that we avoid, repress, suppress,
that we are ashamed of, that we hide.
What is the purpose of all of that?
The purpose of existence is to
experience opposition that we
may know good from evil- Yeah
right from wrong.
Right.
And if we never experience that
opposition, how will we know?
What is our progress gonna look like?
And so I, I started to look at my
struggles and my issues with such
compassion and with purpose, like
there's meaning in it, and that's Viktor
Frankl's whole thing around like- Mm-hmm
finding meaning- Right ⦠in our
suffering is what makes it, sacred.
And, it's hard to, like, compare that
'cause what he went through, right?
But we all go through our own
suffering, and is there meaning in it?
And when we see the meaning in it,
there's grace and there's growth
and there's progress and there's
redemption and there's true repentance,
which is becoming more whole.
And to me, that is just incredible.
It's beautiful.
Wow.
So it's been like a spiritual journey,
also informed by therapeutic concepts-
Love that ⦠also with experiences.
And then now I get to lead, men through
processes and, and retreat experiences
and helping them to embrace themselves
wholly, including the shadow, including
the opposition that they've experienced,
and finding love and grace and compassion
in that instead of just continuing to
wish that it didn't exist or to continue
to suppress or to continue to hide.
There's such power in bringing it
to our consciousness and bringing
it before God and before, even
others, a brotherhood, uh, w- where
there's trust and there's compassion,
and to realize we're not alone.
And that's the first big breakthrough for
many of us, is to realize we're not alone.
Yeah.
Chris: Right.
Mike: And then the next- That was
Chris: huge for me
Mike: the next big breakthrough is to
see the purpose of the struggle and
of the suffering and even the gifts
that have come from our challenges.
Sam: Mike, I love your story, man.
These are battle-tested
principles- ⦠uh, from your
life, and I love to see that.
I, what I also love about your story
is , I love the bottom-up perspective,
which is, uh, like the identity you had
to take on in order to start stepping
away from the old coping, from the
old person a- and embrace the new.
And I love the thought
on repentance, dude.
You put thatâ¦
You, you said that so clear.
I w- I need to go back-
Right ⦠and listen to this podcast.
And, and I'm looking up the definition-
Write some notes ⦠and I'm copying it.
Wow.
That- but that's, just so well-stated.
What would you say are one or two
golden nuggets of recovery that
you feel like, "Boy, people really
ought to know this about my story
or about what recovery is like."
Mike: Hmm.
I mean, it, acceptance and
self-compassion, self-acceptance.
I think that- Seeing the, the little
boy, of my past, of my history
and, and having compassion towards
him . 'Cause if I look into my teenage
years or young adult years or adult
life and I look at those versions,
it is easier to go into judgment.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
Mike: When we look at our past,
, when we had more awareness and
accountability it's just easier to be
like, "Ah, like what was he thinking?"
Like, "Why, why did, why did I do that?
Why did I choose that again?
But when you look at yourself
in that age range of zero to
seven, there's no judgment-
Speaker 4: Yeah
Mike: towards the self
'cause there's innocence.
And then you look at the things that
impacted and influenced that little boy.
I look at this little boy who essentially,
lost his dad, . I look at this little
boy who had this chaotic, home life
and experiences, and then who later
was exposed to pornography from already
a place of having, shaped some views
about himself and about the world, that
he was of course more susceptible To
something that's gonna make him feel
like a man or make him feel strong or
make him feel wanted or powerful- Mm-hmm
or whatever.
And I just, I look at the core need
because any time I turned to pornography
or any time, I would say collectively, we
turn to that, it's because we're trying
to fulfill a deep need, and it's just
a counterfeit way of fulfilling a need.
And so I look at myself and I go,
"Well, yeah, I, I have that need,"
I already mentioned a couple, to
feel like a man, to feel powerful,
to feel like I belonged with other
men, and I saw it modeled to me, "Oh,
this is a way that you are a man."
And I, women don't do that.
Oh, okay, this is like being
part of the boys club or-
Mm ⦠part of the men, you know?
To feel loved, to escape pain, to
escape the shame that we feel, right?
Like, I just look at all of that and
I go, "Man, every time I turned to
that it was because I was feeling
hurt, wounded, less than, shame
," and then I can just see myself with a
little more compassion and be like, "Hey,
when those needs arise again, you know
the authentic, the true way, and it's
connection with God, it's connection
with self, it's in relationship with
the people that we love and care about."
Connection with my wife is the most
powerful, antidote to me feeling
triggered or tempted or whatever, right?
Like, connection with God is the
most powerful antidote to falling
into, like, old ways, counterfeit
ways of fulfilling those needs.
And so if I'm in a, in a healthy place of
maintaining and identifying that I do have
those needs and fulfilling them in healthy
ways, like, to me, that is it being r-
in recovery, and it's a conscious effort
Sam: Oh, man.
Dude, we, we need to, likeâ¦
I, I'm excited for the bonus
content- ⦠because we're, we're
gonna keep blowing our minds.
But I think what the theme
that I'm picking up, and,
This was so fascinating to me.
When I started recovery, I
did my four-step inventory.
I wrote down all the hard things that ever
happened to me, and I read it out loud to
my sponsor, and then what he said at the
end totally changed my life, actually.
He said, "No wonder No wonder
you got addicted to porn."
Chris: yeah.
Sam: Right?
It was a breakthrough moment.
I had these influences and
this environment and this
shame and these beliefs piled
on me that I, I was so young.
And theâ¦
How else would I have viewed the world?
And where else would I
have gone to cope, right?
It was this new, powerful thing that made
me feel masculine and loved and accepted.
So no wonder.
Mike: the, the same kind of
thing, for me was, of course.
Sam: Yeah.
Mike: Of course, that was where I turned.
Like- Yeah.
Yeah ⦠and then there's just
compassion in that, and you take away
that judgment and the shame around
it, and suddenly it opens up to
embracing that part of us that we have
wanted to reject, judge, hide, shame.
And in, in the embracing of that, I mean,
that's what moving towards wholeness is.
And the practice of breathwork,
it's called holotropic breathwork.
Sam: Mm-hmm.
Mike: Holotropic means
moving towards wholeness.
Sam: Yeah.
Mike: Carl Jung, Jungian psychology, talks
about wholeness is the objective, right?
It's, it's not about perfection.
Mm.
It's not about flawlessness
. It's about wholeness.
And wholeness means embracing not
just the good and the light and, and
the positive, but also the shadow.
Yeah.
And that's- You
gotta- ⦠heart's work, too.
Tell it.
It's, gets into that.
Yeah.
It's, it's like-
Chris: I, I- ⦠resonant ⦠in my
posting that I've been doing on, on
social media and stuff, one of the
things that I talk about, recently,
like I just posted it this last week,
was, "Go back to the little boy."
and become the man that
that little boy needed.
What does that look like?
Yeah.
And so it was, like, really cool that
you're bringing that up right now.
I'm like, "That's super cool."
That's awesome.
'Cause, 'cause we need that,
Mike: That's powerful.
Chris: So Mike, how do
people people find you, man?
Mike: I'm somewhat active on
LinkedIn of all platforms.
That's where I've kind of found the
most, like, real-life connections.
It's Mike Allen - ⦠23,
I think, or Michael Allen.
You'll, you'll find me.
We haveâ¦
My wife and I have a website
called thelightinus.org
or thelightwithinus.org.
Both will go to the same place, and
that's where I do regular breathwork
sessions out of our studio in Highland,
and she does women's retreats often
in Midway, sometimes in Spring City.
And the HEAR Brotherhood,
that's hearbros.com.
So H-E-A-R-E-B-R-O-S.com.
That's where we post the men's
retreats and, those are probably
the best places to stay connected
Sam: so, Mike, we have a tradition.
We, we like to ask people, give
us a song that, to you, means
something about your recovery.
Mike: I mean, the, the first one
that comes to mind is Lean on Me.
Sam: Okay.
Mike: It's just a classic, first, and
it, there's kind of a- Such a good song.
Yeah ⦠kind of a nostalgia
with that song, you know?
Yeah.
I remember hearing that
growing up and it resonating.
I interpret it as we
don't go through it alone.
Sam: Right.
Mike: When you're not strong.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We all need, we all need someone-
Someone ⦠to lean on, right?
And I think of so many
people that I've leaned on,
that have been there for me.
My wife first and foremost.
I think of incredible
friends, brothers, family.
And it Goes both ways.
I get to be here for people to, to
lean on in turn, and that's just a
beautiful, a beautiful experience
to get to be on both sides of that.
Mm-hmm.
Like, there are times when we're in
need, and then there are times where
we can give- Yeah ⦠and we can be
that rock and that support to others.
Love that.
And it's incredible.
It's incredible to get to experience
all of it, all of mortality.
Yeah.
Right.
The whole thing.
Yeah.
Sam: Right on, Mike.
Yeah.
Thanks for hopping on with us, brother.
Mike: Yeah.
Thank you.
Thanks so much for having me.
Sam: Thanks for watching.
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Here is "Lean On Me" by Bill Withers.
Oh