Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
Elle: In the world of
B2B, moving up, market
means landing larger,
more complex customers.
Think like Fortune 1000 or
Global Enterprise accounts.
These deals are
often high value.
High stakes and come with
really long sales cycles,
and they're really complex
with multi-threaded
buying committees.
And in my experience, from
scrappy startups to scaled
enterprises, cracking into
that world is never easy.
It takes way more than
just a great product.
It takes trust.
Which brings me to our topic
for today, how to build
trust with that upmarket
segment to unlock growth.
With that, it is my
pleasure to welcome
Kevin Goff to the show.
Kevin is one of the
most creative problem
solvers in the product
marketing community.
He was the first.
PMM for what's known today
as Google Cloud, where
he launched game changing
products like Google
Workspaces and Chromebooks
for business and education.
Since then, he's led
category defining efforts
at companies like Okta,
Asana, and Grammarly, helping
each one to rethink how
they show up in the market.
and build trust
with customers.
And before all of that,
Kevin actually stepped out
of college to start a digital
accessibility compliance
company, which went on to
be acquired by KKR in 2022.
Oh and fun fact, he also sang
on the Edward Scissor Hands
movie soundtrack as a kid,
Kevin, I'm thrilled
you're here.
Welcome to the show.
Kevin: Thanks so much El
excited to, to dig in.
Elle: Yeah, likewise.
A little bummed.
We're not digging into
the Edward Scissor
hands experience.
We'll have to chat
about that another time.
Kevin: I know.
Well, maybe this will be a
good voice warmup for me.
Know.
Elle: I love it.
All right.
Well, let's dive right in.
I can't imagine anyone would
not know this, but just
to keep listeners up to
speed, can you give a brief
overview of Okta for us?
Kevin: Sure.
So Okta makes it easy
to sign into all your
workplace applications.
Uh, it keeps them secure
and makes sure the right
people have access to
the right applications.
Elle: Awesome, thanks.
So, Okta of course is part
of the, the case study that
we'll be discussing today.
So, with that, that the
topic that we'll be diving
into around that case study
is, building trust with
the upmarket segment and.
I'll just say this isn't
a fluffy brand topic that
I think a lot of, uh,
marketers may think it is.
So for the first segment of
the show, let's talk through
that case study a bit more.
What was going on at Okta
when you realized you
needed to completely over
all the messaging and the
go-to-market strategy for
that upmarket segment?
Kevin: Yeah, definitely.
So, so first off, you know,
it's funny, we're, we're on
a product marketing show,
but, uh, this, you know,
is not a product, right?
Trust is not a product per se.
but it, it is something that.
We, our kind of insight
was we need to market
trust the concept just
like we market a product.
So some of the same
tools and techniques.
And so to, to walk you
through what you said, uh,
Okta was doing great in the
bid market, uh, but we were
trying to move up, up market
to really sell to those large
enterprises, and Microsoft
was our, our main competitor.
They had, you know,
20 year relationships.
They had earned credibility.
some people had built their
careers on it, and so our
deals were stalling because
our target, uh, customers.
Uh, really weren't willing
to make the jump to a
relatively new vendor, so we
really had to gain the trust
of the buying committee.
And, what we did was really
a, a holistic approach.
So this was a company-wide
initiative that was
something, everything
from brand to sales.
but the question was how
can product marketing
contribute to it?
and so that's where,
where we came in and we
could walk through some
of those activities.
And ultimately the goal was
really how do we uplift, uh,
conversions across the funnel.
we actually did a before
and after, measurement
of brand trust scores.
So how do we improve those
and then increase win rates
against Microsoft specifically
in that enterprise category.
Elle: I love that.
So, man, talk about going
up against a Goliath like
Microsoft is huge and while
Okta of course now has a
very respectable brand and
really strong recognition in
the market, I could imagine
how back then not, not that
that was that long ago, but.
Could have been pretty hard
if you're trying to win
with those big enterprises.
and you mentioned so much
that I wanna dig into, you
talked about how it was a
holistic approach and it was
a company-wide initiative.
Um, and you didn't just slap
on, you know, hey, we're
secure some kind of badge.
Right?
you went so much
deeper than that.
It sounds like you tackled
this from like product sales,
marketing, and potentially
even, you know, analysts and
so many different angles,
all while staying consistent
on a current narrative.
So I wanna dig a little
bit deeper on how
you landed on this.
I guess, like, what was
part of that analysis for
assessing the situation?
Like why did you, why
trust was the main core
value that you wanted to
anchor on as a company?
Kevin: Yeah, certainly.
Well, you know, I think it
was, it was looking at, at our
sales data and uh, what we saw
was we had a superior product.
Uh, if you, if you even
did kind of side by
side comparisons, uh,
people preferred our
product capabilities.
but we saw just our win
rates were not where
we wanted them to be.
We also did some market
research and understood
sentiment analysis of Okta
compared to Microsoft, and
we also looked at some of
the, claims that competitors
were making in the market.
Claims about uptime
or compliance.
And we recognized that we
weren't really, at parity,
uh, with some of these
claims, even though maybe
our product could deliver
the same amount of compliance
or same amount of uptime.
Uh, so it was really looking
at both market signals,
but also looking at the
state of our product.
And we really felt our product
was ready for the enterprise.
So how do we, uh,
make market perception
match market reality?
Elle: Got it.
Okay.
And it sounds like, multiple
members of the team and
potentially even third
parties, you did so much
analysis and it's analysis
from sales and feedback
from sales, looking at
your win rates, all of
that told a story that.
Hey, we have our
product can do this.
Our product can solve the
problem that the customer has.
We just need to step up to
the plate so that they can,
rely on us for the long
haul like they can with a
big beast like Microsoft.
Kevin: Right.
There was, I mean, there
was kind of a, a vendor
consolidation, right?
People wanted to choose
a few strategic vendors.
So our idea was how could
we, we be one of the top
five vendors that someone
chooses to have a, a long
term and hopefully million
dollar, uh, relationship with.
Elle: Yeah.
Right.
Absolutely.
So when you think about
it with your team, then
focusing on the, I guess,
product marketing's role
moving forward, you, you have
this very, uh, compelling
assessment with all this
data and the team across the
entire, when I say the team,
I mean the entire company
is rallying around this.
What was, I guess, the
task at hand just for
product marketing, I guess?
How did you get started?
What was the big
question in your mind?
Kevin: Well, really it
circles back to thinking about
trust as a product, right?
So if we were to market a
product, if we were gonna
go to market with a product.
What are the components of
an amazing product launch
or, product messaging and
taking that, you know,
something that's very
tangible, like product
marketing and applying it to
something that's a little bit
less tangible, like trust.
So really it starts just
like when you're, starting
to market a new product
with thinking about the
buying committee and who
are you actually trying
to sell to, and what do
they actually care about.
That was, that's true
for products, but it
was also true for trust.
So different members of the
buying committee, which we
had mapped out, you know,
from engineering to product
to finance and compliance, we
realized they had different,
uh, values or different
things that they cared about.
When you talked about
the concept of trust.
Elle: Got it.
Okay.
I wanna talk more about the
buying committee process.
and I feel like it's worth
thing again, when you thought
about product marketing's
role and looking at this
non-tangible thing like trust.
Looking at it as a product
like what's required,
that dedication to, I
guess, like redefining
that experience from the
customer's perspective
and how the customer may
experience what trust.
looks and feels like.
So, I would love to now
turn this into a playbook
and, you know, say that
I'm a PMM facing, you
know, some kind of like.
You know, maybe it's like
late stage friction or trying
to move up market, whatever.
and I've done that research
and benchmarking that
big assessment that maybe
you've done or done in
partnership with various
folks across the team.
and now I'm realizing I need
to build out a go-to-market
strategy and some messaging
around some key value, you
know, whether that's trust or
quality or even authenticity.
Um, like where do I start?
What's step one?
It sounds like.
Mapping some something.
You, you started to talk
about buying committees, but I
don't wanna get too far ahead.
Like what, what's step one?
Kevin: Sure, certainly.
So, so I really think it
is about, you know, we
all talk about ICP and the
firmographics and personas,
but it's really understanding
as you move up market,
especially to the enterprise,
there's a broader set of
people in the buying committee
as compared to mid-market.
So one, we were
really expanding.
Our, our buying committee,
it might have been different
layers within the IT team,
not just the directors,
but the VPs and the CIOs.
It was also expanding,
uh, cross-functionally.
So you had chief compliance
officers, for example, you
had chief legal officers.
You had very sophisticated
procurement teams.
So first we had to kind
of map out this broader
set of buyers and then
that contextualization.
So I'll just give you
a couple examples.
When we talk about trust
for the product team,
they actually cared
about uptime guarantees.
So they cared that the
product was gonna be
up 99.99% of the time.
So if they had a big
spike in traffic on their
brand new Uber competitor,
that they wouldn't lose
any of those signups.
So, you know, that was their
kind of definition of trust.
Whereas the engineering
team actually cared about
APIs and API documentation.
And let's say if we move from.
Version 1.2 of the API
to 1.4, that it wouldn't
break any of their code or
any of their integrations.
So that's what they
meant by trust.
And so we've came to
realize that different
stakeholders really had
different metrics for trust.
So we really had to
contextualize that kind
of fuzzy concept in a
lot of specificity for
the various stakeholders.
Elle: Yes.
And what you're saying
makes a lot of sense too.
'cause I think, earlier in
our conversation, just a few
minute moments ago, as we were
talking about, well, what does
it mean to move up market?
And, um, you know,
what that challenge
is, you mentioned that.
in the upmarket segment,
these companies are
really looking for like
consolidation and they're
looking to get more with
these like, you know, this
idea of like best of breed.
And, and I know we're gonna
get into more of that a
little bit later, but, what
you're saying, it makes a
lot of sense now then to
dig deeper into this more
complex, sophisticated
buying committee.
and looking at it from
each perspective of.
How, how does this person
think about trust and
what about this person?
it makes a lot of sense.
Okay, so let's say as
A-P-M-M-I am, you know,
on this journey and I've
accomplished step one,
I've done all of the
mapping and analysis on
that buying committee.
What's next?
What's step two?
Kevin: Yeah.
So step two I really
think is, is creating,
uh, I call it like a trust
ecosystem or your ecosystem.
Around your organization,
so you've all had seen the
cliche of like a used car
sales person saying, Hey,
trust me, or something like
that, you The reality is your
brand, your, you know, your
statements can only go so far.
So, you need to start
to develop and cultivate
these third party proof
points or very data
grounded proof points.
so an example would be a
product level proof point.
So we launched a, an updated
trust.okta.com site that
had historical information
about our uptime and had
an updated guarantee.
I think it was.
Three nines instead
of two nines.
And even that uptime
guarantee was something
that, uh, we had to actually
go to bat for internally.
So we had to talk to the
engineering team, we had
to talk to the legal team.
We had to talk to the finance
team because there were some
risks in terms of service
level agreements, and we
might have to credit back.
Some amount of the purchase
price if we didn't actually
meet those uptime guarantees.
So product marketing, we
really need to make the
case that this would help
increase sales and move up
to the, into the enterprise
to offset any financial risk
or legal risk that we might
be exposing by being more
specific in our, even our
uptime, uh, for example.
Elle: Yeah.
Got it.
It's so helpful.
So there's all kinds of
different validation points
from, you know, maybe third
parties that you can look at.
I love by the way, and I know
we're this too, we're gonna
get into more later, but,
building out a separate site.
To house all this strong
validation that you're,
that you're building, makes
a lot of sense and Right.
It's, it's that, trying to
say without saying like,
don't just take it from us.
Like, don't just
take my word for it.
Okay, so once you get that
validation going, how do you
take all that work that you've
done with the persona and
the buy team and put it all
together in a story that's,
you know, backed by evidence,
you know, in addition to that,
all that third party data and
like, you know, even bringing
customers into the net mix,
like what's the next step?
Kevin: Yeah, so you, you
know, you raised a good point.
So I'd say it's, it's
more than just you
providing that proof.
It's things like any third
party certifications you have,
you think of FedRAMP or HIPAA
type of certifications that we
also had to kind of advocate
as product marketing to get,
it's brand associations.
So we actually.
Forged some partnerships
in, in collaboration with
partner marketing with other
companies who are actually
competing with Microsoft.
So you think of Box or Slack
or Zoom, I think we called
ourselves the Velvet Alliance.
Right.
and we were kind of the
best of breed and so we
also got some validation
of way if someone used
Zoom and they liked.
Maybe they'd wanna use Okta.
So that also helped in that
kind of trust ecosystem.
and then I'd say step three is
not just those third parties,
but really how to get your
customers engaged and really
kind of trying to tie, your
trust points that you're
trying to, demonstrate with
some of the business outcomes.
That your customer
actually cares about.
So not about efficiency,
but really about those
business outcomes and how
they're really trusting
you to help deliver
those business outcomes.
Elle: I love that.
I love that.
So it's, there's so many
opportunities for the third
party component, but then
taking what the customer,
what's meaningful to the
customer, and framing ev all
of your capabilities and,
you know, the differentiator
of your product rather than
starting with that, starting
with, well, what's really
meaningful to our customer
and their business and what
they're trying to achieve.
and we did that a
lot at Cisco as well.
across the company, or at
least across marketing, we
always frame everything that
we're doing around business
outcomes for the customer.
so I can attest that that is
a very, uh, effective strategy
from a PMM perspective.
Okay.
So bringing it back to
our step-by-step process.
We've got mapping and
contextualizing, we've got
the, the buyer team, we've got
building out the, validation
points, you know, maybe
that's with third parties
and, you know, maybe it's
with, you know, metrics
that you can provide with
the, you know, like you
gave the uptime example, and
then we have the bringing
customers on board, getting
them engaged, and really
framing the story around,
you know, their business out.
Comes, I guess like as
you're thinking about all
of this, and especially
with like the validation
with third parties and
customers, we'd be remiss if
we didn't talk about analysts.
So tell me, what role do
analysts play in all of this?
Kevin: Sure, certainly.
Well, as you, as you move
up, market analysts are
increasingly critical.
Uh, large companies, uh, one
maybe don't have the time to
evaluate all the different
vendors in an ecosystem,
and so they look to their.
Hopefully well paid
analysts to do some of
that vetting for them.
And there's a little bit of
risk mitigation honestly,
too, where you can say, Hey,
I made this choice because.
Gartner or Forrester also put
them in the leaders quadrant
of the Magic Quadrant.
Um, so there's a little bit
of bias towards that as well.
So I'd say analyst is
definitely a long game.
my strategy that I've found
that works well and also
I think works well for
the analyst is you both
wanna listen and share.
So analysts do have a broad.
Based insights into a market.
They're talking with
all of your competitors.
They're talking with
all of your customers.
So they can share a lot of
insights in terms of product
roadmap, differentiation,
even things like messaging.
They can say, well,
this message is dead.
People aren't
interested in that.
Um, so I always wanna
listen and learn from them
up front, but I'm also, to
be honest, always planting
little seeds, even in those
listening sessions to try
to tease out those core
bits of differentiation.
That we have, against a, a
competitor, especially one
like Microsoft, where they've
probably had a long-term
lucrative relationship with
a Microsoft type vendor.
So, I'd say it's a long game
in terms of changing vendor
perception, but one of the,
the tricks, or I've tips, I
would say, is really focus on
trying to get a question or
two, that you can influence
in one of the magic quadrants.
So, For example, for Okta,
we really did a great
job with integrations.
We had literally thousands
of integrations, which made
it very easy to sign in to
all these new cloud apps.
And that was something that
we were much, much better
than our competitors on.
So we were successful in
getting that question in one
of the magic quadrants, and
that really helped to improve
our score and our perception.
And ultimately we
became a leader in
the access management,
uh, magic quadrant.
Elle: That's so strategic.
So, I totally agree.
The Magic Quadrant, strategy
from a vendor perspective,
it starts way before you
actually get the questionnaire
from Gartner, um, or you
know, magic Quadrant or
whatever, equivalent other.
Um, yeah.
IDC.
Yeah.
all of them.
And I think it's so strategic
to think about plant when,
when you plant those seeds
and the way that you were
able to do it with your
differentiators, so that
you ended up getting your
differentiator as a question
on the questionnaire as
just really smart thinking.
okay.
So it sounds like step four
would've been like building
out that analyst strategy,
which maybe you should I, from
a timeline perspective, now
that I'm thinking about this.
You know, some of these
things are happening
in parallel, right?
It's not like you do
one check, then you do
the other one check.
Like you have to be
thinking from a timing
perspective, some of these
things are happening.
You know, I. either earlier on
in the process, I can imagine,
for example, like planting
those seeds with Gartner.
It's an ongoing strategy.
You just have to make Sure.
all that goodness that
you're doing in the first
few steps with like,
mapping out the buyer team
and building out, um, the
validation and the, and the
customer objectives, right?
Like you're bringing that into
the analyst strategy, right?
Like is that kind of what
you guys did at Okta?
Kevin: Yeah.
Well, I, you know, honestly,
I think it became a year long
initiative for us because
there are things, I mean,
you think of some other
long lead times like to,
to do the uptime guarantee.
Engineering needed to
do a little work, to
get the certifications.
We actually had to apply
and get audited for, you
know, SOC type two or HIPAA
or
FedRAMP.
so I think that there
is, of course, there's
some quick wins.
I think the customer stories,
like, you know, a JetBlue case
study that says they trust us
with a thousand flights a day.
That's something you can
do, you know, in a month.
Whereas some of these other
things are longer lead time.
So I wouldn't say don't start
until you have everything,
but I think it's probably
gonna be a little bit more of
a, of a rolling thunder, um,
as you're rolling this out.
Elle: Yeah.
Yeah.
Helpful tip.
Okay, so, once you get all
of this strategy in place
and you're, you have some
of those quick wins as well
as, you know, the long term,
uh, plan all in place, what
does this look like from
a customer's perspective?
Kevin: sure.
So, you know, I think
really to make this or
any initiative successful,
it's about how to deputize
the entire go-to-market
organization so you're
kind of getting the same
message across all surfaces.
I mean, very explicitly
and visually, we
redid our website.
We, we chose some really rich
purples, you know, and kind
of financial services type
imagery that said, Hey, you
know, trust us we're serious.
But it was also about, uh,
the sales team and giving
them a trust playbook, you
know, with a specific assets
and collaterals around
compliance that they could
actually present to customers.
it was partnering with the
customer success team as well.
So how can we give the
customer success team
information around these
enhanced capabilities that
might drive improved renewal
rates or expansion into areas
of the business that they
hadn't quite been comfortable
trusting Okta, uh, previously.
So, um, that I think was
part of the success was
everyone was kind of a trust
ambassador for the company.
Elle: I love that everyone was
so involved and when you do
that, especially earlier on as
I, it sounds like you guys did
this with building out the,
the go to market strategy.
Everyone got to, I guess, like
see that plan as it was coming
to fruition and I'm, I would,
be willing to assume that.
Even take part in shaping it.
So then as you go and,
and do that, step five
of, to use your words,
deputizing, the entire
go-to-market organization.
It's not the first time
they're seeing or hearing
it as in, I don't know about
you, but I've certainly
experienced, um, I would
say even mistakes that
I've made, like not looping
sales in early enough when
I'm building a strategy
and then I go to do some
sales enablement and they're
like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Hang on.
And then I get great feedback,
but it's feedback I should
have and wish that I gotten,
would've gotten earlier on.
Um, so it's, it's good then.
cause then by the time
you go and launch, they're
eager, willing, and they
have an appetite for
this great content that
you're putting together.
Like that playbook, that the
trust playbook you mentioned,
which sounds really cool.
Um, and helpful for the team.
Kevin: Yeah.
Well, I think, I think
what was, particularly,
uh, important there was
showing the, the other
cross-functional partners
metrics that would be
meaningful to them that we
could move, or we believe
we could move with this.
So corporate marketing and
customer marketing, it was
brand perception we could
move that we believe we could
move, um, lead generation
and conversion rates.
And win rates in, uh,
the enterprise market.
So that meant our enterprise
sellers were more engaged and
we believe we could improve
renewal rates as well by this
in the enterprise segment.
So that meant our customer
success team was engaged.
'cause the metrics we
thought we could move were
aligned with the metrics
that they were gold upon.
so there was a symbiotic
relationship there.
Elle: Yeah.
Okay.
And can you talk a little bit
more about the microsite that
you, um, or the, the Okta
team built, I guess, like
what was the goal of that
microsite and what kind of
content did you put on there?
I know earlier in our, in
our chat you mentioned, um,
that you put some of that
validation content on there.
What else was, did
you use that site for?
Kevin: Sure.
So I mean, I'd say the, some
net new aspects of it was one,
the kind of visual dashboard
of our uptime over time.
So it was literally
a heat map.
You know, where you saw
green and yellow and red and
hopefully not a lot of red.
Right?
Uh, that kind of said,
Hey, we're being, it was
a transparency, so we're
being transparent with
you over six months.
And so you can actually be
confident that what we're
claiming is actually, what
we're, what we're delivering.
So that was one.
The second was kind of fun is
we actually had increasingly
been hiring security
researchers and regional chief
information security officers.
So we use this as a, a
launchpad for publishing
security research to
improve our thought
leadership and credibility.
Elle: That is so smart.
Kevin: Yeah.
Yeah.
And then the, the third one,
which was kind of low hanging
fruit, and I actually think
a lot of companies might have
this, is there was a lot of
documentation that we had to
go through for these various
certification processes.
You know, SOC type two
or HIPAA or FedRAMP, and
typically that lives in
some shared folder, and
if some customer asks for
it, you send it as a PDF.
Um, so it, you don't get a lot
of marketing value from it.
But we actually put that
all online and so we had
a whole compliance section
and so it enabled us to
be much more front footed
and those questions and
conversations earlier.
Customers could discover
it themselves or sales reps
could just kinda link to
it and it just, once again,
it forced kind of that we
were buttoned up and the
transparency to remove
friction in the process.
Elle: that's the exact
word I was gonna use.
Transparency.
It's like you removed all
the blockers that typical
B2B intentionally puts there.
Kevin: Mm-hmm.
Elle: So for customers or
prospective customers to
get all this information
and do some of the diligence
themselves upfront, I
mean, even when I'm doing
buying for marketing tools.
I wanna do as much research
I can before I have to pause
my own buying process to wait
to talk to a salesperson, to,
for them to do their pitch.
And then we go back and forth.
Like, I just wanna do as
much diligence on my end as
I can to make my shortlist.
Before I go forth
having some engagements.
So it's helpful, to, arm
your prospective customers
with that information so
they can get it themselves.
Um, and then the other
thing that you mentioned,
that strategy that you did
of hiring these, you know,
security experts to author
some content it all helps
to build that trust that
you're trying to achieve.
So I just wanted to call that
out as, Being really helpful.
Very cool.
Yeah, Okay.
So quick recap on
everything, you know,
we talked about so far.
so step one, we talked
about, um, mapping out
the buying committee
and like contextualizing
around the buy team.
Um, you talked about step
two of, building out the
validation points, and
that could be everything
from your own product
validation to third parties.
Um, step three, you
talked about, tying
everything to mm-hmm.
Business outcomes for your
customers, and then step four.
having an analyst
relations strategy and
then step five to, deputize
the go to market org.
And all of these steps
maybe, you know, are
happening in parallel.
So not necessarily a one
after the other type of thing.
But, uh, a lot
of goodness here.
And I guess like the one
thing that I don't know
if we talked about yet is.
When all this is said and
done, you know, you're, you're
in the, you've got your story
in the market, you've got
this brilliant microsite up.
what are the metrics that
you use to make Sure.
that a strategy like
this is working?
Kevin: Sure.
So we had, we had done a
brand study, so we were
able to do a measure of, of
increased in brand perception.
So that's kind of
the top of the funnel
as much as anything.
we were also able to
measure, uh, win rates.
So increased win rates
specifically against
Microsoft or other.
Competitors in the
enterprise segment.
Also, we saw a, an uplift
in those renewal rates in
the enterprise segment,
so we weren't losing
deals back to Microsoft.
And then we were looking at a
lift in pipeline, specifically
in the enterprise segment.
So really, uh, it was, uh,
initiative that, as you said,
it was multi-threaded, but
was able to deliver on a
number of different dimensions
across the, the buyer journey.
Elle: Yeah, I could imagine
being part of a team and
as you're doing maybe team
check-ins or you know, a
road show or of some sort
on some of the results.
Maybe it's even like
a company all hands.
I could imagine the
celebration when you see
some of those, all that hard
work that everyone had been
working towards for so long.
Payoff, that's,
that's really awesome.
Okay, so final question for
you on this topic, Kevin.
So for any PMM out there
who's trying to move their
product up market, and maybe
they're focusing in on some
non-tangible value like
trust, what's one piece of
advice that you have for a
PMM who's in that situation?
Kevin: I think it was really
the unlock was, uh, getting
much more specific on the
buying committee and really
contextualizing this idea of
trust or really any product
feature to have it be specific
to either the KPI or the
strategy or the value that
that specific member of the
buying committee was pursuing.
And so that allowed us to
really be crisp in terms of.
The value that we were gonna
deliver to them on trust.
And it also kind of created
these new work streams with
collaborative partners like
engineering, with like sales,
like, uh, customer success
that enabled us to expand
the initiative beyond just
being a, a product marketing
initiative or marketing
initiative to truly a, a
company-wide initiative.
Elle: Yeah.
Yeah, I think so too.
So, and I really appreciate
how you and the team thought
about what trust looks like
across that buyer team, and
it made it so, so much more
personal and more genuine when
you do it that way, versus
just applying to what you want
trust to be and then slapping
it across all the content.
You know, it sounds like
from the very beginning.
You, you, when I say you,
I mean you and, and the
rest of the Okta team.
Um, you know, you did all
this research around really
understanding like what
are, what signals gave
customers that confidence
to move forward and what
proof they needed to do that.
it's.
Obviously speaks that
it was very successful
by doing that approach.
and you didn't just throw
some, you know, generic
trust signals into the mix
either again, like, not
just like slapping a badge
on a, on, on the website.
You actually built something
that's personal and human.
Um, so I love that.
It's, it's really helpful
and appreciate you taking
the time to walk us
through this playbook.
Alright.
Okay, so closing out that
segment and moving on to.
the next, next segment
of our show is the
messaging critique.
Okay.
So this is where we as product
marketers get to analyze real
world market or messaging.
And the fun part is,
Kevin, you might guess
get to pick the company.
so before we get started,
I'm gonna walk through,
um, some quick round rules.
So.
You're gonna tell us what
the company is that we're
going to analyze today.
and then once we do that,
we're, you're gonna walk
us through the messaging.
Um, you're gonna tell me
one thing that you're loving
about the messaging, something
that stood out about the
product, and then you're
gonna tell me something that
you wish the PMM would've
done differently as they were
building out that messaging.
And then finally.
We're gonna do a quick
fun brainstorm around how
could this PMM take it,
uh, to the next level,
how, you know, maybe they
could create, um, some fun
content or a new creative
campaign, something that
the PMM could think about.
it's all about
refining our craft.
No negativity.
Just a thoughtful,
constructive critique.
So let's get into it.
What is the company that you
would like to analyze today?
Kevin: Yeah, so the
company I wanna look
at today is rippling.
It's kind of an everything in
one tool for small businesses.
It does hr, IT financial
things like spend
management, payroll.
So I think it's
interesting because
it's kind of a platform.
But the buyers are
pretty different.
Typically a HR person versus
an IT person, versus a finance
person, they really have
to try to reach a really
diverse set of buyers.
But for a system or a
tool that's, that pitches
itself as all in one.
Elle: Yeah, you really
distinct buyers that,
that you mentioned, right?
Like you, I think you said
it, hr, finance, those are
very distinct buying centers.
Um, okay.
So for those of you
who wanna follow along,
check out rippling.com.
It's R-I-P-P-L-I-N g.com.
okay, so tell me
about their messaging.
Like right off the bat.
No, I guess just starting at
like with their head, header
and subheader, what are
you seeing here and what's
working and not working?
Kevin: Yeah, so their, their
header is, employees get
more done with rippling.
And here's what I like about
it, is they're not, because
they have such a diverse
set of buyers, they're not
trying to get something that
touches every single buyer.
They're talking about the end.
Consumer, which
is the employee.
So hr, it, finance, ultimately
they in some ways have
to be in service of the
employee, and if they can
help the employee get more
done, then that delivers
value across the business.
So I like how they've kind
of thread the needle where
this is something that
all three of those buyers
probably wanna have happen.
Elle: Yeah, so it's kind
of like uniting these very
distinct buying centers
around one common goal.
and I heard this, maybe I
heard it from a different
guest on my show, I can't
remember, but I heard this
one time where you can
tell how good a product is
by like when you take it
away from your end user.
And how they react to
you taking it away.
Like Slack is an
example of that.
Like when you take away the
like, like every employee
is not the buyer of Slack
as an example, but if you
take that tool away from
them, they're gonna be
really bummed about it.
So applying that same
similar idea here.
Obviously I don't, I've
never used rippling.
I'm not really sure, you
know, not speaking on it from
that perspective, but the
idea is that like uniting
all of these different
buying centers around.
giving a tool that
employees appreciate
or like, ideally right,
they're getting more done.
that's maybe a good, a good
way to test how effective
that tool is and, you
know, so a definitely
consideration for those
different buying centers.
so you like that
aspect about it.
Okay.
And what's something
that maybe the PMM could
have done differently as
they were building out
some of their messaging?
Kevin: Sure.
So it's interesting just
looking at the site itself.
There are many calls
to action, which is see
rippling, uh, get a demo.
All of those drive
to a reg form.
So to me, it's really clear
that this site is owned by
demand gen, you know, it's,
it's designed to perform,
you know, and so in some
ways you kind of see like.
The org chart when you look
at a website and sometimes
it's very brandy and
sometimes it's very producty.
Well, this one is very,
uh, revenue marketing and
that, I mean, this is a
hypergrowth company, so,
and it's also SMB, so the.
Cost per acquisition is
key to the profitability
of the product.
So I get it.
what I would love to see as
just a visitor of the site
is surfacing a little bit
more of the interactivity
and engagement, you know,
a little, just a little
of a teaser demo or,
uh, a teaser quote from,
an existing customer.
just something that kind
of, I'd say humanizes.
The product a bit more
is I think, um, what I'd
love to see on the site.
Elle: I completely agree,
and I was thinking that
as you were saying, so for
example, on their website
here, they've got this
great headline, this really
strong message, employees
get more done with rippling.
And then on the side they
have a stat, like right next
to that they have a static
image and it's, I think
it's a replication of what
their product looks like.
and that's not bad.
in fact, I like seeing what
the product looks like.
I liked product imagery.
I just think they could
have done, there's, um, so
much more opportunity with
that real estate to tie the
imagery directly back to
employees getting more done.
And maybe they're trying
to show that with.
Showing the, you know,
they've got talent benefits,
like it spent, payroll,
like all in that one image.
So maybe they're trying
to show an all-in-one.
In my opinion, it's a little
too much and it makes the,
it makes your customer,
your ICP have to work a
little too hard, I think,
to make that connection.
So I would like, I would
like to see them maybe just
some brainstorming around
how could they make it easier
for visitors of the site or
their ICP to make it easier
for them to, to draw the
connection with whatever
imagery they use with that.
really strong, you know,
messaging that they have.
So, curious what you think
about like the imagery?
Kevin: Yeah, I mean, I, you
know, I, I'd love to see if,
if their site supported it.
I mean, that could
be an animated gif.
It could be a little.
Carousel, it could be
something that kind
of has some action or
activity around it.
Uh, because the workflows
are interesting.
I mean, you see enrolling in
benefits assigning a computer
or assigning a corporate
card, you know, once you,
once you zoom in two, two
times and you see some of
the capabilities, you're
like, oh, this looks good.
So I think that surfacing
these workflows in, uh, an
engaging fashion and maybe
a couple of these workflows.
I think could really,
um, kind of add a little
bit more specificity, uh,
to the, to the product.
Elle: I completely agree.
I think some kind of like
animated gif or something that
showed like a process, cause
as you're saying it, like,
like showing it as a story,
would be really effective.
I do love that they have
all the, the proof points,
with all of the, um.
You know, star ratings
that they have.
Um, so that's really
effective too.
And they've got great customer
stories on here as well.
Um, so what's something that
the PMM could consider to
take it to the next level?
Kevin: You know, I would be
curious about how they use
this landing page, because
part of me says maybe there's
a bunch of microsites that
they've created for it,
for hr, for, uh, you know,
so maybe there's a whole
play of you're actually
targeting specific ICPs.
Bringing them to an IT
or an HR specific landing
page, having more specific
messaging, and then kind
of over time expanding
into these other areas.
So I would be curious
about their land and expand
strategy and maybe go deeper
on, um, some more targeted
microsites or landing pages,
specific to those buyers.
Elle: Yeah.
You know, when I click,
I clicked on each one
of those CTAs, those
call to actions for each
of the buying centers.
And it looks like it
has a special one,
and the others don't.
There's just like immediately
looks and feels different
and the, the actual URL
is different as well.
So it's really interesting.
I wonder if something that,
as you're saying is kind
of the strategy, but maybe
there's another way that
they could be thinking
about it, as you said, to
take it to the next level.
very cool.
Any thought, any quick, like,
last thoughts on rippling?
Kevin: Well, you know, the
other thing I like that it,
it was, it was pretty popular
a while back, but I, I'd say
it's fallen out of favor,
but I like that they have
that what's new at rippling?
Uh, carousel.
I, I think if you have enough
news, uh, that if people
are coming back to the site
or have a little time to
explore, I do like how they're
surfacing the latest and
greatest it's case studies.
It's, it's launches and
so this also just gives
honestly PMM surface area
to do a little bit of of
promotion while keeping the
site fresh, without having
to do an entire site redo,
which can be time consuming
Elle: Yes.
Oh my gosh.
I know.
and hard, just, um, hard
for a PMM to try to get,
even if you will, you know,
update messaging for example.
Or you have a new creative
story to tell and you want
it featured on the site.
Oh my gosh.
Could take forever
take, especially getting
it on a homepage.
So yeah, that's a
really good call out.
okay, cool.
Well, hey, rippling,
pmms great work.
We like your strong messaging
and we've got some ideas for
you if you're open to it.
alright, so that concludes the
messaging critique segment.
So Kevin, there's one thing
I wanna do before we go.
I like to make space for
what I call a moment of
gratitude on the show, um,
because in product marketing.
None of us get here alone.
We always learn
from each other.
Definitely building on
each other's work and
we're all better for it.
So before we wrap up, I
wanna say a genuine thank
you for your time and effort.
you know, all the preparation
that went in on your side
ahead of this show and
sharing your, playbook
on, Okta and all the time
and insights you shared.
Thank you so much.
I really, really
appreciate it.
Kevin: Thanks.
It was a lot of fun.
Al,
Elle: Yeah, of course.
And I would love to now turn
it over to you who's maybe
one or two pmms, who's made
a real impact on your career.
This is a great time to give
them a little shout out.
Kevin: Sure.
I definitely have a,
a, a few outs, um,
from across my career.
Wanna give a shout out
to Jeremy Milo From my
time at Google, he was,
instrumental in helping me
think about kind of zero
to one product marketing.
So I think we launched
13 different products
during my time there.
And so really just building up
that muscle of understanding
the ICP and taking it to, to
market and figuring out what
channels to sell it through.
I wanna give a shout out to
Ed Sama from my time at Okta.
Ed is, is kind of
a master craftsman.
Of product marketing.
Uh, he has a blog that's
taught me a lot, but also
we work together closely.
So kind of all of the, the
fine tuning of the craft,
especially around pricing
and packaging, which I
think is something that's
increasingly important as,
especially with AI workloads
and cloud workloads.
We're kind of innovating
new ways to price and
package offerings.
And then, uh, Puja, Ramani
from my time at Asana.
And this was a really fun one.
We were, we're trying to
figure out the product-led
sales motion, which kind of
takes the best of product-led
growth and sales-led growth
and combines 'em together,
in innovative ways.
So I really enjoyed my time
working with her on that.
Elle: I love it.
You really had some
amazing mentors, uh,
across your career.
That's awesome.
and this is my last
question for you, I promise.
Where else can we
access your expertise?
Is it best to find
you on LinkedIn?
Kevin: Sure.
Uh, happy, happy
to have a chat.
I always like talking to
people, starting companies,
so if you ever want a, an
hour of, of free time, uh,
to riff, I'm, I'm all for it.
Elle: That's awesome and
very generous of you, um,
as is with all the rest of
the effort and time that
you've already given us.
So thank you so much.
Um, and thank you PMM
listeners for coming on this
adventure with us today.
I hope this episode leaves
you with inspiration to
take and the next step
of your own journey.