Lion Counseling Podcast

🎙️ Episode 58: Sam Guzman | When Being a Good Man Isn’t Enough

He built one of the most influential platforms on Christian masculinity.
But behind the message… was a deeper realization:
Knowing what it means to be a man isn’t the same as becoming one.

In this episode, Mark Odland and Zack Carter sit down with Sam Guzman—Licensed Clinical Counselor-—and author of The Catholic Gentleman—to explore the gap between external strength and internal integration.

This conversation is relevant to men of various faiths, and goes beyond surface-level masculinity and into the real work most men avoid:
trauma, emotional shutdown, marriage struggles, and the parts of yourself that don’t agree with each other.

If you’ve ever felt like:
You’re winning at work but failing at home
You “know the right things” but still feel stuck
You’re trying to be strong… but something feels off
This episode is for you.

In this episode, you’ll learn:
✅ Why many high-performing men feel competent at work—but lost in relationships
✅ The difference between passive men, aggressive men… and integrated men
✅ The 3 most common ways men check out of their families
✅ How childhood wounds (like divorce) quietly shape your adult life
✅ Why men avoid therapy—and what finally breaks that resistance
✅ The truth about vulnerability (and when it actually creates strength)
✅ How trauma impacts your view of God, trust, and identity
✅ Why you can have multiple “versions” of yourself competing internally
✅ The real path to integration—and why it’s harder than most men expect
✅ How to lead your family without losing your emotional and spiritual core

📘 Get Mark’s Free Book:
https://escapethecagenow.com/subscribe/

📚 Explore Mark’s books & resources:
https://escapethecagenow.com/books/

📞 Book a Clarity Call (Free Consultation):
https://escapethecagenow.com/call/

Click here to watch a video of this episode.’
SAM GUZMAN LINKS:
https://www.samguzman.com
https://innerspacecounseling.care

About the Lion Counseling Podcast
The Lion Counseling Podcast helps high-achieving Christian men break destructive patterns, build emotional strength, and become the men God designed them to be—steady, disciplined, and free.
We integrate faith, psychology, EMDR, and real-world experience to give you practical tools for healing, leadership, and purpose.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.

Creators and Guests

Host
Mark Odland
Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist
Host
Zack Carter
Zack Carter is a Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling LLC.

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Sam Guzman:

But one thing I think that's important to note and is that, yes, absolutely, your your earthly parents kind of set up this template for how you relate to relate to god. You know? And I think especially your father can have a huge impact on that. Right? But from a parts perspective, and we don't have time to get into all the nuances there, but the the idea is that one part of you can have one view of God and another part of you cannot.

Sam Guzman:

So one part of you might have faith and might be like, God is awesome and God has always provided for me and look at all these great things that God has done in my life. And another part of you might be like, don't believe in trusting God at all. Right. You know, I've I've been through this painful experience and that painful experience and where was God in those moments. Right?

Sam Guzman:

I'm skeptical. You know, and so you can have both parts within you, and you could almost you could have, like, three or four or five different god images inside you.

Mark Odland:

That's a good point.

Sam Guzman:

And they could all be competing with each other.

Mark Odland:

Alright. Sam Guzman, welcome to the Lion Counseling Podcast.

Sam Guzman:

Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. Well, know Zach and I were really looking forward to this conversation because as we continue to grow our podcast and we're we're focusing on the intersection of working with men, mental health as that's our day job, right? Zach's the counseling track, I'm on the therapy track, we help a lot of guys and a lot of guys who want to come from a faith perspective, not all our clients, but many of them are looking to integrate that into their healing process. And so when I discovered you as a potential guest, went, man, gotta reach out to Sam. This is so interesting the work that that you're doing and sounds like there's been an evolution from some of your podcasting and writing into this the clinical work that you're doing now.

Mark Odland:

So all that being said, Zach, I know you had a couple questions on the front side maybe just to get to get to know Sam a little bit here.

Zack Carter:

Yeah, man. It's yeah, Sam, it's been really cool to get to know your work. You're a great writer, dude. We've, you know, we prep for different guests and you've definitely been one of the better writers that as I've been prepping, I've been was very impressed by your work, dude. And when I I see all that you've done, man, you're you're you've been an author, you've started a company, now you're in counseling.

Zack Carter:

Like what's the through line, man? How did all this get started? How are you here today now talking to and talking about counseling? How did how did you get here?

Sam Guzman:

Yeah. That that's a great question. So, I mean, really, there's kind of before counseling and after counseling. So I'll start before counseling, but I think it really started with me becoming a father. I know I got married really young and, you know, always wanted to be a dad.

Sam Guzman:

I always wanted to kind of just embrace that traditional role of husband and father. And yet I realized very early on, I had no idea what I was doing. Prior to marriage, I had read all the marriage books. I listened to all the marriage talks, listened to the sermons that can, you know, the best practices, the advice, and I thought I'm gonna be an amazing husband. This is I've got this.

Sam Guzman:

You know, this is gonna be awesome. I was like 22 or something. Yep. And then I got married, and the whole first year of our marriage just blew up. And, like, I realized how selfish I was, how insensitive I was, how many things I had to work on, how insecure and anxious.

Sam Guzman:

Was I mean, I had a I was a bundle of problems. You know, I thought I was gonna nail this whole marriage thing and ended up blowing it sky high. And and, you know, it's a wonder we survived our first year of marriage. But after that, I was like, I really need to get my my act together and I started reading you know, a lot of masculine material. You know, I read Wild at Heart by John Eldridge, you know, and I started reading a blog.

Sam Guzman:

It was pretty new at the time. The art of manliness, you know, and then it was all about, you know, how to embrace traditional masculine roles and and trappings, you know, suits and ties and and how to shave with old school way and everything and so, I thought this is it. You know, I'm going to put myself together and turn myself into a real man. And and that was super helpful and super valuable in a lot of ways, and it really did help, but also being I've always had this impulse to write. While going all the way back to high school, I had, you know, an interest in writing, and I always had a blog going on the side just to process my my my thoughts.

Sam Guzman:

And so as I was kind of on this masculine journey of, like, figuring out what does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a good husband? You know, teach me. I also had this impulse to start writing about it and writing about the lessons I was learning, and that kind of turned into my my blog, The Catholic Gentleman. And and then I just started blogging my journey.

Sam Guzman:

And, you know, they they they old saying the best way to learn is to teach. And so I just started writing about, hey, man. Let's let's man up here and, you know, like, embrace these big responsibilities, like getting married and having children. And when I had my first son, it was like, man, they've taken to a whole another level now. He's gonna be wanting to imitate me.

Sam Guzman:

He's gonna be wanting to look up to me, and I better make sure that I'm working on myself. So that that was about a decade of my life, a little more more or less of writing, doing a podcast of my own. And along the way, I got more and more interested in helping people one on one. And there's a whole backstory to that. Sure.

Sam Guzman:

But, you know, several years ago, maybe, you know, seven years ago now, I was working for a software company. I was was doing marketing, which I really enjoyed, but I just had this growing impulse that there might be something more for me in a different direction in my career. So I ended up enrolling in psychology program. But as I was going through the psychology program, I realized I can't actually work with people with just a psychology master's degree. You know?

Sam Guzman:

And I really wanna be, like, one on one helping people directly. And so I ended up switching to counseling, and and and and that was a whole another journey. But it's been it's been wonderful. I have five kids. We live here in the Tulsa area of Oklahoma, and I have a private practice.

Sam Guzman:

And I just work with people every day, men and women, and and just love my job. So

Zack Carter:

That's so good. And once you started cutting yourself with a straight razor on the art of manliness, you're like, nah. This is

Sam Guzman:

I'm going for the beard. Yeah.

Zack Carter:

You're going for the it's better to go for the beard for sure. For sure. Yeah, dude.

Zack Carter:

Dude, thanks for laying that out. I feel like my track has been the opposite of like, I'm going to do one on one and now we're doing like the podcast. I'm writing a book also on manliness. You know, in your book you were talking about the difference between a gentleman and a man. And I would be curious if you could expand on like, what did you learn about manliness?

Zack Carter:

Maybe your what is your elevator pitch on manliness? Because I think even me, I had a long time where I felt like I wasn't sure what manliness was. I read John Eldridge's Wild at Heart. It didn't really resonate with me. And I was a college pastor at the time and I was expected to go up and tell people this is what men are.

Zack Carter:

This is what women are. I was confused about it. So, like, what did you

Zack Carter:

what would you what did

Zack Carter:

you find? Like, what do

Mark Odland:

you tell people if you're

Zack Carter:

giving them an elevator pitch on on manliness?

Sam Guzman:

Yeah. Well, human nature is such that we we usually pivot to extremes. Mhmm. So the two two extremes are what traditionally was called, like, effeminacy or, like, weakness or softness or, like, inability to endure any kind of difficulty, just kinda shrink back from life, and you don't you don't lean into life. You just you're just kind of a wallflower.

Sam Guzman:

You know? Mhmm. And the other extreme is kind of like the biker guy. You know? Like, you know, the huge leather jacket.

Sam Guzman:

You know, and then he's too rough and he's aggressive and he's rude and he, you know, abuses women and, like, you know, just just just an unpleasant character. So on the one hand, you have kind of what we would call in counseling, like the passive extreme. And on the other extreme, you would have the aggressive extreme. But virtue is usually in the middle between two extremes. Going all the way back to Aristotle and Plato, they would talk about the golden mean between two extremes, and that's where virtue is almost always found.

Sam Guzman:

So for me, that became the archetype of the gentleman. Are both you have the ability to, you know, storm the beaches in Normandy in d day, you know, in World War two, but you also when you are you're a gentleman. You know? You have refinement. You have character.

Sam Guzman:

You have manners. You know, you treat women with respect, and you're not rude and aggressive. You know? And so you're both both strong and refined. And, like, traditionally, if you look back, going back centuries, this was kind of the ideal of chivalry where men you know, knights back in the day, they would they would serve a master, of course, but also they had strength.

Sam Guzman:

They were capable of violence. Right. I mean, you know, you look at the medieval knights, like, they they could be violent when they needed to be, but they also were refined. They had manners. They had this courtly, like, disposition of respect.

Sam Guzman:

And and so the modern version incarnation of that is the gentleman. So that's why I kinda focused on that archetype of both strength, but strength under control. Strength that was refined. Strength that knew how to be gentle when it needed to be, but also could, you know, be aggressive against evil when necessary. You know, if if goodness is threatened, you're there.

Sam Guzman:

You're ready to stand up and fight.

Zack Carter:

That that's so good, Sam. It's it's interesting that we're coming to a a similar place. We we did a podcast and referenced Harvey Mansfield from Harvard who talks about the three levels of manliness. And so like at the bottom, you've got the weak man. You called it passive.

Zack Carter:

You've then got the strong man. You called it aggressive. And then you have the gentleman. So he uses a lot of the same terminology as you do. One of the things that Mark and I have been noticing about our clients is a lot of these guys can be one of these archetypes in one area of their life, but not in another.

Zack Carter:

I'm curious if you're seeing the same thing with your clients where maybe at work, they're the night, they're the gentlemen. But at home, they're either the biker guy or they're the passive man or vice versa. Is that what you see a lot as opposed to a guy always being one thing or showing up in different areas in different ways?

Sam Guzman:

Yeah. Yeah. And that that's a great way of framing it. I I I do see that. I I do see also the the ones that are the same consistently, but, also, I think what happens is, you know, if you look at a lot of guys at work, they feel competent.

Sam Guzman:

They feel in control. They know how to please the boss. They know how to get the work get stuff done. But then they come home, and home is all about relationships. It's all about, you know, listening to your wife.

Sam Guzman:

It's about how to discipline your kids in a healthy way and, like, all of these things. And they feel helpless. They feel perhaps even incompetent. And they don't like that feeling. They don't know what to do.

Sam Guzman:

They don't know what to say. They don't know how to relate. And as a result, they, you know, can turn into that aggressive person or they can turn into that passive avoider who just says, you know what, I'm just going to check out. I'm just not even going to engage. And it comes from that discomfort with the dynamics of a home life.

Sam Guzman:

And so then, yeah, and then some retreat into work aholism because, again, they feel competent there. They know how to crush it at work, but at home, they just feel completely out of their element. And so they either avoid that or become aggressive. Yeah.

Zack Carter:

And what are some you talked about workaholism. Are there some other ways you've seen men check out at home?

Sam Guzman:

Oh absolutely, yeah. I mean I think the big three, I would say, me are, like, alcohol is a huge one for a lot of guys. You know, that's how they manage their emotions. That's how they self regulate. And maybe alcohol feels like a reward after a long day or something like that.

Sam Guzman:

Right. But you know? And, of course, that can lead to a whole a whole other spate of problems and complications. Right? But for men, they seem drawn to alcohol even more so than women in a lot of cases.

Sam Guzman:

Of of course, pornography is another way that guys just check out and then regulate their emotions, you know, through and and, you know, the in in pornography, everything's always perfect. You know, the guy always knows how to please. The guy is always successful in that regard. And it can make an a man who's incompetent at home feel all of a sudden like he knows how to win. You know?

Sam Guzman:

And Mhmm. It's an illusion. Right? But it it feels compelling for a moment. But then the third is just sheer avoidance.

Sam Guzman:

You're just on your phone. You're just on watching TV and just ignoring your family. I'm not gonna forget one of the very first posts I wrote for a Catholic gentleman was we were at a park with my son. He must have been, like, six months old or nine months old or something. But we were at a park, and there was a dad there who was on his phone.

Sam Guzman:

And he was there with his son, and his son was running around, racing around the playground. Hey, dad. Watch this. He was going crazy on the swings, you know, going down the slide. He's like, hey, dad.

Sam Guzman:

Watch. Hey, dad. Look. You know? See me.

Sam Guzman:

Pay attention to me. And his dad never even looked up from the phone.

Mark Odland:

Yeah.

Sam Guzman:

And finally, the kid gave up and just slumped in the swing and just sat there, you know, because his dad was completely ignoring him. And I think that's the other, like, default that we can turn to is just check out. You know? And

Mark Odland:

Yeah.

Sam Guzman:

It's but it can be devastating to our families.

Zack Carter:

Oh, yeah. That's definitely one that I like, I have to be cautious of. Like, you know, especially if I'm doing work. Say, I work from home and I'm on my computer a lot and my daughter is 15 and so she can be like trying to get my attention. And it's like it is a fight to be like, all right, I'm going like close this thing right now and set it aside and like hang out with her for a moment.

Zack Carter:

I can I can definitely see that?

Mark Odland:

Wow. I was just gonna say sorry to interrupt, Zach, but the train of thought. But when you were talking there, Sam, about that kind of painful, like, story about the kid trying to get his dad's attention. Right? It just hit me when you said that that what we deal with a lot is those little boys grow up, and they become men who step into our office and see me and Zach.

Mark Odland:

And now they're having a reexperiencing of trying to get their dad's attention, but maybe it's their wife. And and why would my wife put her phone down? Am I invisible? Do I matter? And that seems to feed the beast too with these Yeah.

Mark Odland:

Three kind of ways of coping that are trying to meet a very normal human need, but are ultimately destructive.

Sam Guzman:

Right. Yeah. Absolutely.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. Well, we'll we'll probably touch on that later with through that trauma perspective because I know we we do some similar work around that. But yeah, but I'll kick it back to you, Zach. I know you're you're going through. No.

Mark Odland:

Think that's that's a good

Zack Carter:

that's that's a great transition. Yeah. Talk about trauma. Yeah. Go for it.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. I mean, did I read right, Sam, that you are training in EMDR?

Sam Guzman:

That's right. Yes. Yeah.

Mark Odland:

That's awesome because I I don't know if you knew that I was a EMDR consultant and and certified EMDR therapist.

Sam Guzman:

So Oh, no. That was wonderful. Yeah.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. So that that's kind of my Zach and I make a really good team, I think, at Lion Counseling because when people find us, they kind of have a couple tracks they go down. Like, on one hand, if

Zack Carter:

they have this deep work that they

Mark Odland:

just know they've never dealt with, a lot of times they might end up with me to do that EMDR work. And the other guys who are really stuck in some patterns around career or or addiction or relationship and just man, they just really need someone to dive in deep with some of Zach's coaching expertise or CBT work or other things that Zach offers. But but but, yeah, I do see that the trauma come up a lot. And it sounds like you are also trained in internal family systems, and we probably won't get into the weeds too much with our audience who may not be familiar with the terms, but in my experience those two things go hand in hand and kind of the parts where it can really be a complement to the trauma therapy. And what I tell guys is, don't worry, we're not saying that you have multiple personalities, but there are metaphors.

Mark Odland:

There are metaphors that could be really helpful in understanding ourselves and understand those those why parts of ourselves over function, under function, wounded parts of self that are kind of frozen in time. So maybe maybe a place to go next would be just I'd love to hear your perspective on the way that you see trauma show up in your office for men. And and even though you're training EMDR as an EMDR therapist, I know that's you're you also have different modalities that you use and different ways to conceptualize things. So I'm curious about how you see trauma show up, and I'm curious if you have kind of a framework for how you kind of conceptualize what is the real issue going on for the guy sitting on in the chair or on the couch across from you.

Sam Guzman:

Yes. Yes. Well, I do think, you know, if you go back 40, maybe like the seventies or maybe even early eighties, there was no conception of trauma. I mean, even with veterans and things like that, there was no sense that there was even such a thing as trauma. They didn't know what it was.

Sam Guzman:

They didn't know how to deal with it. And so just to clarify what we're talking about when we talk about trauma, it's usually an experience or maybe even sometimes a series of experiences where your system is overwhelmed.

Mark Odland:

Right.

Sam Guzman:

You know, we all have this, like, window of tolerance that is tolerable stress. You know? You forget your phone at home on the way to work. Okay. That's annoying.

Sam Guzman:

It's stressful, but you're not gonna have a meltdown over that. Right? Like, you can handle that. And so that stress that is manageable is within this window of tolerance. Once you start going outside of that, your system starts to dysregulate, and then finally, it's overwhelmed.

Mark Odland:

Right.

Sam Guzman:

And when your system is overwhelmed for a prolonged period, trauma is formed, an imprint is made kind of on your nervous system and on your brain, and it can lead to a a whole number of negative symptoms and and, you know, we could we could get into that and have a whole podcast on that. Right? But but it's that window of tolerance being exceeded and sometimes exceeded by a great degree. And your systems overwhelmed you don't have the skills or the resources to cope with the level of stress that you're experiencing. So you think about.

Sam Guzman:

How trauma shows up for a lot of guys. A lot of people don't even realize that they have trauma until they start putting together the symptoms over here that are bothering them with some experience they've never made the connection before. But but let's take one that affects a tremendous amount of people in our culture today and that's divorce. Divorce is so normal now, you know, what one in two marriages ends in divorce and a lot of cases, You know, that number fluctuates a little bit, but divorce for children can be traumatic. I mean, it can be traumatic for adults too.

Sam Guzman:

Sure. But but for children who are watching this, it can be tremendously scary, tremendously overwhelming, and they don't know how to make sense of it. You know, these two people that that brought me into existence now hate each other, now are, like, screaming at each other, and I don't know what to do about this. And so, you know, I've I've heard, you know, stories of clients, you know, hiding under a bed as their parents scream at each other and, like Yeah. They they're scared.

Sam Guzman:

And what often happens is kids internalize that as guilt because the only way to make sense of something that doesn't make sense is to blame yourself. I don't understand how this is happening. So it must be my fault somehow.

Mark Odland:

Mhmm.

Sam Guzman:

And it's not rational. It's not a logical process. It's just a sheer feeling of guilt and badness that can, know, enter into kids at that point. But divorce can be a trauma for kids, and then there's, you know, visitation and all these things. This is not to, you know, guilt or shame anybody.

Sam Guzman:

It's just to acknowledge a reality that a lot of people live with that they don't even realize how devastating it was for them as a as a young kid to have their, you know, their parents leave each other and no longer love each other. So so a lot of people live with trauma and don't even realize it.

Zack Carter:

So, Sam, you know, you're you're talking about the trauma of divorce. One of the things I hear in my head is how some studies and some people argue, well, if a marriage is bad enough, that could be even more traumatic than the marriage ending. I know, you know, in Catholicism, marriage is very taken very seriously, man. So what what do you say to people who would argue that point?

Sam Guzman:

Yeah. Well, I would I would say that there absolutely are cases where it is more harmful for that person that to stay. You know, damage is being done to the children and things like that. But what I think we've seen is kind of a trivialization of it where people often use divorce as an escape hatch. They even go into marriage with this in the back of their mind where they say, like, you know, like, I'm not gonna do the work.

Sam Guzman:

You know, things get rough. Yeah. I'll always have an out. You know? And and and so they it you use it as a way to avoid doing any kind of work.

Sam Guzman:

And and what I've often seen is one partner is very willing to do that, and the other one's just like, nah. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna go to marriage counseling. I'm not gonna learn better communication skills. I'm not gonna do this or that. I'm just I'm out of here.

Sam Guzman:

Sorry. You know? And then they start all over. And and so what I I think we've seen is, like, yes. Absolutely.

Sam Guzman:

There are cases. There are many cases of, like, abuse emotionally or physically, you know, or or other forms of of serious problems that do warrant, you know, a parting of ways or a separation. But I think, you know, when you look at fifty percent divorce rate, it's been taken to the extreme where the minute the going gets rough, let's just go find someone else. I mean, let's just start over. Let's just throw this away.

Zack Carter:

Yeah.

Sam Guzman:

And and so I I do wanna, like, acknowledge that both realities. You know? So Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. That's that's tough. I mean and it sounds like you see a fair amount of that in your practice. And on both sides, guys, I don't I don't know if it's more so the guys who grow up and having been traumatized by their parents divorcing or if it's more adult adult men in your office who are experiencing that now. But I mean it just occurred to me too, know, for our Christian guys listening that, you know, one of the primary metaphors, some might argue the primary metaphor for God's relationship to us is a wedding metaphor, right?

Mark Odland:

Is a marriage metaphor. Christ is the bridegroom and us the church as his bride. And so what happens when your earthly representation of that reality is broken as a child. I don't know. Kind of like you're saying how sometimes people don't make the right direct connection to their present symptoms and their trauma.

Mark Odland:

Sometimes I also wonder if people don't realize that, you know, we're all we're all wounded, we're all sinners, we're all broken people. And so it's hard to know the ways that our earthly parents can impact our relationship or how we perceive God when we become adults, that there can be a connection point there as well. So I don't know if that's something that you're seeing as well with your clients, and if so is it something that actually is discussed in the office? Because I know as a licensed therapist, right, and a man of deep faith, there's this tightrope you walk on how to authentically do that in an ethical way, but also treating people holistically too as whole beings. Right?

Mark Odland:

So I'm curious about that in in your office when trauma kind of collides with how they're seeing god or how they're experiencing their faith life.

Sam Guzman:

Yes. Yes. Yeah. Well, definitely with with clients with a Christian belief or a faith background, obviously there's a lot more freedom to discuss these things. But one thing I think that's important to note, is that, yes, absolutely, your your earthly parents kind of set up this template for how you relate to relate to God.

Sam Guzman:

You know? And I think especially your father can have a huge impact on that. Right? But from a parts perspective, and we don't have time to get into our best and all of the nuances there, but the the idea is that one part of you can have one view of God and another part of you cannot. So one part of you might have faith and might be like, God is awesome, and God has always provided for me.

Sam Guzman:

And look at all these great things that God has done in my life. And another part of you might be like, I don't believe in trusting God at all. Right. You know, I've I've been through this painful experience and that painful experience. And where was God in those moments?

Sam Guzman:

Right? I'm skeptical. You know? And so you can have both parts within you, and you can almost you could have, like, three or four or five different God images inside you. It's a good point.

Sam Guzman:

And they could all be competing with each other. You know?

Mark Odland:

That's really really insightful and complex, but I could imagine almost being a relief for people. Like say they come in and they're totally identifying with the part of them that feels wounded and lacking faith, And then you just highlight something, well man, but you're still doing this and this and this. That sure seems like a part of you. Yeah. Does believe or does have hope.

Zack Carter:

You see it with

Mark Odland:

the couples who are, you know, like the fact that they're even in couples counseling shows that there's some hope, some love, something there that brings them into the office. And so I imagine that it's somewhat freeing for clients in some cases to identify with that. And then in your experience, is the path forward clients coming to some kind of peace with the fragmentation in this fallen world? Or is it still moving toward integration as a as a goal? How how do you see that?

Sam Guzman:

Yeah. Well, integration is is, yeah, definitely the goal. You know, the the image that always comes to mind for me is, like, an old, you know, stagecoach or something where you got a bunch of a team of horses pulling, you know, a carriage. And but, like, let's say that they're they're not they're not all tied together. Right?

Sam Guzman:

One's going this direction. One's going this direction, and they're all pulling, and you're not gonna get very far. Right? You're gonna feel completely stuck. But all of those horses are trained.

Sam Guzman:

They're all tied together with, you know, harnesses, and they're pulling in the same direction. That's integration. Right? That's that's what we're aiming for. And that's like what healing these parts that we that are can be fragmented sometimes and have all of these completely different perspectives on life, bringing them into a harmonious relationship changes everything.

Sam Guzman:

And then then everything's pulling in the same direction. That's that's kind of what we'd call, like, a, you know, a virtuous life. And so I also think too that this is why Jesus had 12 disciples. You know, they were all different. Right?

Sam Guzman:

Yeah. And that relationship you know, sometimes they were arguing with each other. Who's the greatest? Right? And, like, we have that same dynamic inside where these different parts of us are vying for control Mhmm.

Sam Guzman:

Or trying to get the upper hand. But Jesus was so patient with with the disciples, with the apostles that, like, they were just he he would sometimes shake his head probably and and but also he showed them love. And eventually, like, after I would say Pentecost, there was just this unity. Right? There was this shared mission that they were all on the same page, you know, and there was that that fire of, like, intensity.

Sam Guzman:

Right. And I think that's the goal for all of us is to work with these parts of us that have different views of God, that may be different views of life, have different goals and values, and bring them into kind of a harmonious role so they can all work together. Yeah.

Mark Odland:

I mean, it's no accident, right, that you find a similar rut to the word integration and integrity. Right? There's something about the more integrated we are, the more we're able to live a life that looks more like integrity. And

Sam Guzman:

Yes. Yes.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that, Sam. I I think that's a really powerful metaphor at the stagecoach. I mean, I'm going to hold on to that and and quote you when I use with my clients. That's a Sam Guzman.

Mark Odland:

Maybe you got it from somewhere else, but but it's a good one. But go ahead, Zack.

Zack Carter:

Here's my thing with you guys. All right. So you guys are laying this out. This sounds really nice. And also,

Zack Carter:

I'm reading in between the lines, probably highly uncomfortable to, like, get these horses into alignment. Sam, do you think that's one of

Zack Carter:

the reason so hard to get men into therapy is that they don't wanna do the work, or is there other things that you've seen that makes it really difficult to draw men into therapy and work work?

Sam Guzman:

Oh, yeah. Definitely. So, yeah, one is absolutely this kind of cultural burden that's placed on men that men aren't allowed to feel. Men aren't allowed to have emotions. And maybe the only exception to that would be anger.

Sam Guzman:

Anger you know, you can be angry as a man. You can throw stuff, break stuff, and that's okay. But, like, the minute, you know, you're crying, well, that's not acceptable. You can't do that. And this starts very young for us.

Sam Guzman:

You know, like, to scrape your knee, You know? Be brave. You know? And, like, we're kind of told that, you know, we shut down any and all emotion. And men are supposed to just power through, suck it up.

Sam Guzman:

And I will say, by the way, absolutely, there are moments in life when we do this need to, you know, power through. You know? For example, I I used earlier the example of, like, d day in Normandy. Right? Like, that's not the time for a therapy session.

Sam Guzman:

You just gotta do what you gotta do. And sometimes there's time when, you know, in life, we're gonna be called on to to to be strong and to power through difficult moments. Absolutely. But there are also times when when there are patterns in our life that are absolutely destructive. There's emotions that we can't control.

Sam Guzman:

There's anxiety. There's depression. There's addictions of various kinds. And to not ask for help in those situations or to think that you just need to muscle through in those situations is the height of folly. I mean, think about any sport.

Sam Guzman:

You know, you're you need a coach. Right? You need someone to help you see yourself objectively because we can't see ourselves objectively. But all that to say, think men often are told and they feel like they can't open up. They can't be vulnerable.

Sam Guzman:

They can't share their feelings. And and so some of it's a permission thing. Like, you need to yeah. It's okay for you to go see somebody and get some help. But, also, there's a big fear of emotions among men to the point where it shut down, and it just, like, lives in their body, but they don't even know how to name it or or and I see the emotion wheel behind you, Zach.

Sam Guzman:

You know? Like like, men often look at that and they're like, woah. I had way more emotions than I thought I did. You know? And, like and then a lot of the work for men is just, like, learning to notice and name your feelings.

Sam Guzman:

Like, that's a huge step in the right direction.

Zack Carter:

Sam, can I interrupt you for just one second? I I had I had this client who was, like, a grizzled like, you did not you don't mess with this guy. And he was coming to me because his wife made him. And like oftentimes happens, he's like, yeah. You know,

Zack Carter:

I just I struggle with anger.

Zack Carter:

I was like, I I bet

Zack Carter:

you you're feeling other things other than anger. He's like, no, man. I don't feel anything. I just get angry sometimes. And so we, like, went through a situation, and we're like, okay.

Zack Carter:

We we've, like, listed anger. What are the other things that you're feeling? Let me tell you, bro. That dude had more emotions than I've had for any other male client I've had.

Zack Carter:

Like, he had, like, 60 emotions that were going on underneath the surface, but he just, like, had hardened himself to the

Zack Carter:

point where he could he wasn't even aware of them. And it's like, we gotta know what's going on underneath the surface because that's the stuff. I think Jonathan Hite described it like the the rider and the elephant. You have this elephant that is in control. You think you're in control because you're on top of it, but it's not.

Zack Carter:

It's like this powerful force that can move whatever direction. And so if men don't understand that, they're being driven around by the elephant. Absolutely.

Sam Guzman:

It's EQ. It's it's that, you know, we have the IQ, which is where we manipulate and control the world. Right? Or, like, you know, a certain level of intelligence that can get you ahead in life. But EQ is something different.

Sam Guzman:

And a lot of guys have a very high IQ. Like, they know how to perform. They know how to get things done. But and when they get to their EQ, their emotional quotient, they're lost. And then and so a lot of work, you know, with a lot of male clients is just kind of introducing them to their own emotions and and helping them understand them.

Zack Carter:

Wow. That that's that's

Mark Odland:

so interesting because as you were saying that, Sam, it kinda had this, like, flashback to the beginning of of scripture in Genesis, right, where there are these two things in parallel and paradox. On one hand, you have the help made created up from Adam's rib and this relationship, right, that is necessary in God's eyes so that it's not good for man to be alone. And that I'm guessing comes with some emotions. He created Yeah. Men and women with emotions and experiencing them a little differently and learning how to do that together.

Mark Odland:

And then there's also this command to fill the earth and subdue it have to have dominion, not to dominate, but have dominion over the earth, which kind of it it reminds me of the go out and conquer kind of thing. And I wonder if peep back to your wisdom in the center, finding the center where the virtue is. I wonder if people just lean too far one way or the other sometimes and and get off track. So that's one thought. And then the other thought, I'd love your take on this, and I don't know when you were writing your book, did you ever start going down the rabbit hole of like the secular red pill space for men's masculinity stuff?

Mark Odland:

So they one of the little one of the things that they've that's been a theme is they kind of poo poo the guys being vulnerable thing. Yeah. Right? And I'm like, man, I'm a therapist. I can't buy into that.

Mark Odland:

But then they had this line and I'm like, oh, I gotta think about this. It's like even if it was right and good for men to be vulnerable, and even though their wives say you should be more in touch with your feelings, when a guy actually does it, is that anxiety producing sometimes for their spouse? Because even though they want that, back to the parts, another part of them kinda likes the stoic rock who seems unshakable. And they can lean on him rather than be like, oh my gosh. My husband has all these deep feelings.

Mark Odland:

What do I do with that? And maybe that's overblown and maybe not not not that big a deal, but I'm just wondering if if there's some validity in in real time to that fear that some guys have of being vulnerable outside their counselor's office.

Sam Guzman:

Yes. Yes. Well, I do think appropriateness is important. Context is important. Like I said, like, you know, if you're if you're in a in a a military battalion and you're you're going into combat, that's not the time.

Sam Guzman:

Right? That's not the time. But there is an appropriate time. Later on, you process. Right?

Sam Guzman:

And you debrief and, like Right. And and I think for women and and women have a high need for safety. It's just how they're wired biologically. Yeah. And and that's why women often struggle to a tremendous degree with anxiety.

Sam Guzman:

They wanna feel safe. And there's a lot of things in the modern world, you know, and we we don't need to get into that, but, like, a lot of things in the modern world that make women feel very un safe. Right. And so they're anxious a lot of the times. And and when they're, you know, they're they wanna turn to someone who, yeah, is kind of has this steady calm presence.

Sam Guzman:

Right? But but I just wanna say though that like men who are doing the inner work, men who are working on themselves in appropriate spaces, maybe with other men or like in a counseling context or something like that, are so much healthier and more calm and more safe Good point. Than a man who's suppressing everything. Because you may not ever, like, shed a tear in front of your wife, but if you're still just holding everything in and suppressing everything and you're never feeling or in an appropriate way, like, you're not gonna feel safe for her. Even if you're not showing your emotions, you're not gonna feel safe for a woman like that.

Sam Guzman:

So

Mark Odland:

I no. That's that's a that's a great point because I think, yeah, people oversimplify it and make and and it almost as a false dichotomy the way as Yes. And you can I think you break through that with what you just said because, I mean, I think we've probably all of us, you Sam, you Zach, myself, have seen enough guys to see the pattern emerge that actually not dealing with your trauma, dealing with your emotions, not dealing with your relationships? It's almost I I I don't wanna say it's impossible, but it seems almost impossible to be that stoic rock and actually be healthy without it coming out sideways in some way eventually. It just seems seems like it's a ticking time bomb.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. Like drinking or pornography, as Sam referenced earlier.

Mark Odland:

Exactly. Exactly.

Sam Guzman:

Right. It's gonna it's gonna come out in your life, Nick. And, you know, some of the early, like, psychiatrists like Carl Jung and stuff would talk about how things things always show up in your life. There are there are no accidents, you know, and it's like you can suppress it all you want, but it's still gonna affect you in ways often that you're not gonna want. So

Mark Odland:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. So that's we've got we've gotten down some different directions here. This is good.

Mark Odland:

This is good. I the the parts, the trauma, the male female relationships, faith. Maybe this ties in a little bit with the last question about husbands relating to their wives, Sam, but have you seen not not that you have to have all the solutions with with all this stuff. These are big That's

Sam Guzman:

a really wow.

Mark Odland:

Oh, good. Good. But I love to pick your brain on you started with the metaphor of the knight, the noble knight who can do battle when needed, but can also serve, be chivalrous. Right? Have have have virtue.

Mark Odland:

How often do you see a man who's striving to be a knight doing the work, and his wife wants him to be a knight, but she doesn't want to be a fair maiden.

Sam Guzman:

Yes.

Zack Carter:

Does that come up for you?

Mark Odland:

Because I I I feel like sometimes it comes up for some of the guys I work with, and it it becomes an interesting thing to navigate.

Zack Carter:

And to be clear, Mark, you you just mean that she she doesn't wanna, like, do her part. So to be kind of over wifely duties.

Mark Odland:

Well, I mean, not not every not every couple is set up with the same value system. Right. Like traditional gender roles, that kind of thing. But but what I sometimes there becomes a mismatch with if both the husband and wife want to do marriage this way, okay, we're on the same page. If both husband and wife wanna do it this other way, okay, well, at least we know what the goal is together.

Mark Odland:

But if you have someone who wants kind of a traditional mode of being for their spouse, but then the but then the spouse doesn't want to embrace that same traditional mode of being, then there becomes kind of a clash of expectations and roles and responsibilities that just kind of collide maybe. Yeah. And I don't know if that is these are cultural forces with men trying to be like, okay. I'm gonna be a real man. But then we're in the in the the just swimming in decades of the feminist movement that's been Yeah.

Mark Odland:

Right? All all the good that comes with women's rights and empowerment, but also some very up destabilizing things for family structure perhaps.

Sam Guzman:

Yes. Yes. Now we're definitely going through

Zack Carter:

a

Sam Guzman:

realignment culturally where we're I don't think we've, as a collective, found our footing yet. So, I mean, you go back several centuries and not even that long ago, really, you know, the early twentieth century, but but there was there were a tremendous amount of disadvantages in being a woman. You know, there were women novelists that had to use men's pen names and stuff to get things published, and women had no property rights, couldn't vote. Like, there were a lot of disadvantages for women.

Zack Carter:

The good old days?

Sam Guzman:

Yeah. There was. Yeah. Right? And explain it.

Sam Guzman:

But so women kind of yeah. There was this movement to kinda empower women and recognize their dignity as human beings and, you know, realign culturally. But I think what happened was something entered in what they called second wave feminism. So the first wave was like, we need the right to vote. We need the right to own property.

Sam Guzman:

You know, my husband dies, and I'm not allowed to inherit his property, I'm gonna be left destitute. You know? And, like, this was called called first wave feminism. So property rights, ability to vote, the will ability to open a bank account. It's awesome.

Sam Guzman:

Right? Then second wave feminism came in, and this was different. And what they basically said was women need to be men. Right. Men are the standard of what's good, but everybody should be striving for, and we need to change women to become more like men.

Sam Guzman:

So abortion and all of that that went with that was like the way of leveling the playing field biologically. So women said, we are capable of getting pregnant, then we're always at a disadvantage in the workplace and, you know, this and that. And so we need to eliminate that that liability that we have as women and be just like men. And so, like, there became this movement. Yeah.

Sam Guzman:

Get get women in combat and, like, you know, get women doing dangerous dirty jobs and, like, let's get women doing this and doing that. Unless anything you can do, I can do better. You know? Like, this mindset of of war between the sexes. Right?

Sam Guzman:

Right. But, like but, ultimately, men were still the standard. Women just wanted to be men, basically. And that's kind of, like, what second wave feminism became. And the muddy the waters were muddied tremendously there.

Sam Guzman:

Because instead of feminism celebrating the unique gifts of womanhood, such as motherhood, it became about eliminating those uniquely feminine gifts so that women could be equal to men in every respect. And I think they're still waging that war at a lot of levels. But it became more about, like, androgyny than true feminism. Like, that was the goal. And so, yes, like, a lot

Zack Carter:

of

Sam Guzman:

women today, you know, I think they just are carrying a lot of masculine energy, a lot of, like, assertiveness, aggressiveness, things like that that women traditionally didn't carry. But they're told they have to do this to be successful in the modern world. And then when you take that into a marriage, like, the dynamics are all confused. And Yeah. And so, yes, I do see that dynamic they're talking about where men were like, hey.

Sam Guzman:

Like, this traditional model of, like, the man being the head of the house and all this. That's great. We love that. And then the wife's like, what? Like, I am not on board with that.

Sam Guzman:

What are you talking about? You know?

Mark Odland:

Right.

Sam Guzman:

You know? So it's it can be very threatening to women, and they they resist that, you know, as a man's trying to step into that role.

Mark Odland:

Wow. Yeah. That that's very, very perceptive the way you you phrase that.

Zack Carter:

Can I ask a question real quick, Mark? Please. Please. Where my my my brain goes is recently, we were doing a podcast on increasing women's sexual attraction to their husbands. Mhmm.

Zack Carter:

And one of the things you come across is chore play. Right? And so doing doing the chores removes stress off the the women the women. And that's one of the number one libido killers. And so, you know, in thinking about manhood, womanhood, traditional masculinity, traditional femininity, Are we running into an is or ought question?

Zack Carter:

Well, it ought to be women do traditional things or do you accept that is well, it is what it is in our culture now. And so doing something like chore play is a thing that men need to take on themselves if they wanna get some.

Mark Odland:

Somebody put us in.

Sam Guzman:

Well yeah. So now that's a great point. And I think that is one thing that we've had to reconcile with culturally is that the traditional roles that men and women embraced often out of sheer necessity do not are not truly necessary anymore. So for example, you know, Joe's out in the fields for ten hours, you know, plowing planting, you know, killing animals and and, you know, butchering them and, like, all of these things. He doesn't have time to come home and do the dishes or make breakfast or, you know, any of those things.

Sam Guzman:

Right? Mhmm. And and the wife has to she has to take the raw materials that husband brings home and turn them into something amazing. Right. She's got a bake and cook and, you know, and clean the house and like all of those things.

Sam Guzman:

And so there's this mutual dependence.

Mark Odland:

Yeah.

Sam Guzman:

That was just baked into traditional life, you know? And if you want more on this, like, Wendell Berry is a brilliant commentator on all of these things. But we live in a post agrarian world. We live in a Right. Industrialized world where we've got dishwashers and, you know, wash machines and, you know, we've got vacuums and we got all these wonderful modern conveniences and it does shift the dynamics.

Sam Guzman:

You know, a lot of women, if they they embrace the truly traditional role, just kinda be sitting at home with not a whole lot to do, you know, in the sense that there's all these conveniences and things. So a lot of women get restless, and they're like, need a job. Like, what's you know, what am I doing here? And and it just shifts those dynamics. So, yes, I will say men do need to pick up slack around the house because the you know?

Sam Guzman:

Let's say you're both going to work and you're both contributing to the household, and then you come home and the wife is expected to do everything. Well, why? You know? Like, you're both at work all day long. Why is she the one that has to cook dinner every night?

Sam Guzman:

You know? And so as these roles transition, like, I think we've been knocked off balance culturally. We don't know what to expect of each other anymore. Mhmm. We don't wanna, like, cross that line into, you know, demeaning somebody, but we also, like, don't know what our job is anymore.

Sam Guzman:

And as as husbands, as fathers, like, especially if you're trying to embrace that more nightly role of, you know, I'm I'm I'm kind of embracing this traditional headship or whatever. It's it's so confusing. I think we'll work it out in time, like, what this new balance looks like. But I think a lot of especially in the Christian world, there's kind of this movement towards, well, like, let's go back. But we can't truly go back.

Sam Guzman:

We have to find a new way forward. And I think we're working that out right now, like, all over the place. And it's a messy process sometimes, but a healthy one, I think, overall, as we kind of go through this realignment.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. There are big forces at play for sure. And which I think is probably why the three of us are in mental health, because it's very gratifying and such a privilege to be able to see in the midst of these cultural forces that can seem somewhat overwhelming to know that at an individual level, you can see trans you can see change and healing and transformation happen. And that ripple effect can move into that person's life, their marriage, into their family, into these concentric circles that expand outward, right? Church, community.

Mark Odland:

And some might argue that that's a place. I mean, goes back to around the time you were writing your book. That's when Jordan Peterson was kind of catching fire too. Right? And he's like, where does it start, man?

Mark Odland:

Like, in your room and sort of embrace some of those you know, take radical responsibility for yourself. Not that systems aren't a thing. There are forces, patterns at work. But if you wanna be empowered, right, we have to focus on what can what can I control? What what can I do to make myself a better man?

Mark Odland:

Right? And that that's not the same as beating yourself up constantly either. It's like I I imagine with your parts work too, there's inappropriate kind of guilt that comes into play at times when things are not not hitting the mark, but then sometimes the overdue need for self compassion or empathy for self and understanding is I mean, is that fair to say that you see that?

Sam Guzman:

Oh, yes. Yeah. Absolutely. I think most people have a pretty vicious inner critic, and they say things to themselves that they would never say to another human being. And so, yeah, the whole point of Biofest or internal bandwidth systems or parts work, whatever you wanna call it, is is turning towards not against.

Sam Guzman:

Mhmm. We often have this inner war going on where we're just fighting ourselves constantly, and we're just warring against ourselves, and we're frustrated with ourselves and all this. Well, the minute you kind of turn towards yourself with a drop of compassion, like, things actually do begin to resolve. I it it sounds like ridiculously simple. And yet, how many people actually embrace it as a way of being and relating to themselves?

Sam Guzman:

Very few. And so a lot of parts work, yeah, is is kind of this process of meeting these difficult parts of yourself, what might be traditionally termed like the shadow. Right? Like, facing that, these difficult very difficult to love parts of yourself and and loving learning to love them anyway. You know?

Sam Guzman:

And as you do, instead of warring against them, which you think would work, you know, screaming at them or whatever, it doesn't work. It just makes them the cycle's worse. But when you shift that that kind of energy, for lack of a better word, to one of compassion and curiosity, things begin to change inside. And so, yeah, if you're feeling stuck in your life in any regard, try it out. Try saying, I'm here.

Sam Guzman:

Help me understand. Why do you keep returning to this addiction, or why do you keep doing this, or why you know, what pain is driving this? And you meet that with with compassion and understanding. Like Mhmm. You you you can jump by leaps and bounds in a healthier direction.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. And, Sam, what you're saying about compassion and curiosity is is the key part because there's two ways to ask that same question. Why do I keep doing this? What's wrong with me? Or like, I wonder why I keep doing this.

Zack Carter:

I wonder what's going on that I need to change. Like those are like one's a statement and one's a question. And actually approaching this as a question and not as a statement is the way to heal. I work with a lot of guys around pornography and pornography addiction. And a lot of

Mark Odland:

times I have to talk to

Zack Carter:

them about the shame cycle of you go watch pornography, you feel shame afterwards. In order to numb out that shame, you watch pornography again, which adds more shame, and it goes on and on and on and on and on as you keep numbing yourself out from that shame.

Sam Guzman:

Yep. Exactly. Yeah. And the only antidote to shame is love, really. And sometimes for a lot of guys, like, they don't love themselves.

Sam Guzman:

They they hate themselves. You know? And there can be this self loathing that keeps people trapped in these toxic cycles. And, you know but but, you know, getting to that place of compassion can take some time. It can take some some real discomfort and work.

Sam Guzman:

You know? And and, you know, a lot of guys think avoiding their emotions is courageous. It's actually the opposite. Sometimes the most courageous thing you can do is face the darkness inside, to face that discomfort, to face those feelings that have been suppressed for a very long time, that takes way more courage. And, you know, every guy that steps into the counseling room, like, I'm just so proud of them because they've taken that courageous step to face what's inside.

Zack Carter:

Yeah.

Mark Odland:

It does. It does. It takes tons of courage. You know? I think in in such important insights that you guys are sharing around compassion, I mean, through that theological context, that sounds a lot like grace.

Mark Odland:

Right? Or what they would call agape love, unmerited love, because that's a hang up some of my guys get into too. I know I'm sure you guys have seen this too, where a guy will be like, well, I suppose I could try to have compassion for myself, but I don't think I deserve it. And so then the question could be, well, when it comes to grace, what does deserving it have to do with it? Right?

Mark Odland:

We have a we have a god who gives us undeserved love. And if we can reflect some of that in our relationships and and towards ourselves, some pretty cool things can start happening. Like, I I don't know if you said it this way, Sam, but almost like just a drop or just a just a entry point. Yeah. It it can really be a catalyst for some beautiful things.

Sam Guzman:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I've I've had guys, you know, show compassion to a young part of them that you know? And the minute they connect with that, like, inner child, if you will, and see themselves through new eyes, through eyes of of compassion and love and understanding.

Sam Guzman:

Like, they just they just break down in tears because they've never felt that their entire life. Like, they've never felt that acceptance and that understanding, and it can be hugely transformative.

Zack Carter:

So so, Sam, you have written books. You're doing counseling, say you had to go get your masters, you've started companies. One of the big things is I've had my own family and my daughter is really wrestling with, for lack of a better term, work life balance. I know some people are like, Oh, if

Zack Carter:

you're doing the thing you love, there is no work life balance. It's all interconnected.

Zack Carter:

So I don't know what your opinion is on the work life balance, but I see the things that you've accomplished. And I'm like, where was the time for the family? Like, how do you how do you do all these things? Have five kids, be married at 22? Like, so how how have you figured that out in your life?

Sam Guzman:

Well, I I'm not nearly as productive as you might think, but I I I would say though that for me, family has always been primary. You know, obviously, I have to work. I go to, you know, I go to work or go to the office. Mhmm. But my family is my vocation.

Sam Guzman:

You know? And my my job is also a vocation in a sense, but it's a secondary vocation. You know, as, you know, a Catholic, believe marriage is a sacrament. It's it's a whole it's a means of grace. It's a channel of grace in your life.

Sam Guzman:

And I take it seriously. I take every you know, showing up for my children, making sure they feel loved and seen and acknowledged that they know what a gift they are to me. I take that very seriously, but also my wife. You know? Like, a lot of times when you start having kids, people forget about their spouse, and it's all about the kids.

Sam Guzman:

It's all about, you know, taking the kids here, doing that, doing this. Yep. You know, all the all the children all the time. Right? But, no, actually, your wife is primary.

Sam Guzman:

And there's nothing that will make a kid feel safer than seeing their parents love each other. And so I take my wife on dates, like, as often as I can. You know? And I bring her flowers, and, like, I want her to know that she's number one in my life as, you know, as a almost a sacramental sign to me of God's love and and grace and loving her as as, like, loving God through her. And so I take that very seriously.

Sam Guzman:

Now as far as, like, productivity goes, again, you know, like, I I I'm not the most productive person in the world, but but, you know, I would say that, like, the more like, there's, like, this weird time dilation that happens where you you put the first things first in your life. You put god first, your your wife, your children, and it's like space opens up somehow for to accomplish things that you didn't think were possible otherwise. And and I you probably heard this metaphor, but, you know, I had a professor back in college that that talked about, like, filling a jar with with sand and rocks. And if you put the sand in first, the rocks won't fit. But if you put the big boulders in first, you can pour the sand all around it.

Sam Guzman:

Right? And it's like you put those primary things first in your life, The space opens up for everything else somehow. But we need to keep first things first in our life, and everything else will fall into place.

Mark Odland:

That's that's that's powerful. I mean, that's inspiring for me, Sam, to just take that to heart. And as you ask that question, Zach, about how do you balance it all? Maybe part of it is as I hear you talking about it, Sam, like maybe it's letting go of the illusion that it can be balanced. And if you have to lean one direction, it's toward your primary vocation and and trusting that other things will fall into place accordingly.

Mark Odland:

Is that fair?

Sam Guzman:

Yeah. That that's a great way to put it. And, yeah, it it it is a strange thing because, like, work is important. And and I've said I've got a tremendous amount of joy from my work. But, yeah, I think just keeping that sense of of priorities, like a hierarchy of love Mhmm.

Sam Guzman:

And keeping that hierarchy in order, things take care of themselves. Yeah. Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

It's beautiful. And and it's kind of a game changer too because sometimes people will say, god first, then family, then, you know, like this. But if you're talking about loving god through loving your wife, then you're actually addressing two parts of hierarchy simultaneously, which is like that is so cool.

Sam Guzman:

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Mark Odland:

That's awesome. Well, I know we don't have a lot of time left. Zack, do you

Sam Guzman:

have any

Mark Odland:

more last questions that you've been dying to ask? Or are we going to kind of wrap this up on this love, love topic here?

Zack Carter:

I think this is a great a great place to start landing this plane, man.

Mark Odland:

All right. All right. Well, so you are in Tulsa, Close to Tulsa? Okay. Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

I have to ask, have you heard about this new Sylvester Stallone show called Tulsa King? That's that's on TV. Don't know.

Sam Guzman:

I don't

Mark Odland:

know if it's a good tourist attraction through that that series or not, but I it's it's an interesting show.

Sam Guzman:

Yeah. Well, I I was just interested to learn that there's mafia in Tulsa.

Mark Odland:

Well, I was surprised. I don't know. You may be, you know, providing counseling for some of them, but and we don't know about it.

Sam Guzman:

So Tulsa is a great city. Would, you know, I would encourage anybody who's passing through the area to to check check it out. Tulsa has a lot of things that a lot of bigger cities have in, like, a very small package. You know? We have Nice.

Sam Guzman:

Great sports and music and arts and entertainment and stuff. So it's a great city. If you're ever in the area, check it out. Yeah. Well well, definitely.

Mark Odland:

Spite of the mafia, of course.

Sam Guzman:

In spite of that. Yes.

Mark Odland:

It's yeah. Of course. Of course. But okay. So do you do just in person counseling or do you do telehealth as well?

Sam Guzman:

I do telehealth as well. Yes.

Mark Odland:

Awesome. So so anyone who who lives in Oklahoma can can find you and potentially see you out for a counseling service. How do people find you? What's the best way, Sam?

Sam Guzman:

Sure. Well, there's there's two ways. One is samguzman.com, which is kind of my place for, like, my like, the and and other projects that I have going on. It's kinda more my personal website. And then there's also Interspace instead of Outerspace, interspacecounseling.care is my practice website.

Sam Guzman:

So you can check that out as well and see what services I offer. So

Mark Odland:

That's awesome. Well, we'll definitely throw that in the show notes for any of you listening and wanting to click the link directly. And now did I I saw right that you also had kind of a workbook that was available for people.

Sam Guzman:

Yes. Yes. It's a daily check-in journal. I mean, it's primarily through the lens of internal family systems. Uh-huh.

Sam Guzman:

But it's parts work. So so one thing I've noticed with clients is is we'll make this big discovery during one session, and then I don't see them again for two weeks. And there's, you know, days and days in their routine where they're not checking in with themselves, and there's no progress that's being made. So I made this journal to kind of help people keep track of what's happening inside them from day to day. And I don't I use it myself.

Sam Guzman:

I don't use it every single day. I don't think there's any need to do that, but the goal is, hey. What's been going on inside me? What am I feeling? What am I noticing?

Sam Guzman:

You know? And how can I address that in a helpful way? And it takes three to five minutes per check-in. It's not long, but it just helps you stay on top of what's happening inside.

Mark Odland:

So That's great. That's a great sounds like a great practical resource. And Yes.

Zack Carter:

So we'll we'll we'll put a

Mark Odland:

link to

Sam Guzman:

that in the

Mark Odland:

notes as well. And for any of you who are not in Oklahoma and are looking for some extra support from Zachariah, of course, you can always check out escapethecagenow.com, and, we're happy to do a clarity call with you to see if it might be a good fit. And, wow, what a conversation, Sam it was such a pleasure having you having you on our show and just to know that we have a brother in Christ across the way who also is interested in the same kinds of things that we are. I know there's some guys who try to be faithful, there are some guys who are good at trauma therapy, guys who understand IFS part stuff, you don't always find them all packaged into one guy. So I think that's pretty pretty cool to find a Kindred spirit across the way and I hope that people will reach out to you if they could use some extra support and check out your writings and other thing cool things that you've been doing in the past as well.

Mark Odland:

But all that being said, thanks again for being on the program. Thanks, Zach, as always for take teaming it together with me and until next time. Take care, everybody. God bless. Bye.