Exploring the Role of a Remodeler During a Home Renovation

When it comes to rolling up their sleeves and getting things done, ProSource Wholesale® trade professional members are some of the best in the business at a project design with precision. With the help of a remodeler, this discussion details the importance of hiring a trade pro, as well as the challenges (and solutions) faced when tackling a home remodel. Also highlighted is a remodeler’s role with product selection, plus managing expectations when it comes to budget and execution.

What is The ProSource Podcast?

Creating a design concept for a kitchen or remodeling an outdated bathroom requires an understanding of the products and services available to those looking to undertake such a project. The ProSource Podcast breaks down the home remodeling industry and highlights the merchandise and experience that it requires to achieve your vision. Join ProSource Director of Digital Marketing Content Kevin Devine, as he speaks with those who facilitate the ideal project and offer valuable information for how to choose the ideal products and services that transform your ideas into reality.

Hello, this is The ProSource Podcast.

I'm Kevin Devine,

Director of Digital

Marketing Content

for ProSource Wholesale.

In this series

we’ll focus on home remodeling,

especially kitchens and bathrooms.

You'll hear from those in the know,

including our corporate merchandizers

showroom team members

and the trade professionals

who ultimately make it happen.

We're glad you've joined us.

Enjoy.

In today's episode

of The ProSource Podcast,

we're joined by Charlie

O’Hearn of Heritage Remodeling.

Charlie,

thanks for joining us here today. Thanks.

So we're going to start

a real simple question for you.

Just tell us who you are and what you do.

So I'm Charlie O'Hearn.

I own Heritage Remodeling.

We do

somewhat high end kitchen

and bath remodels. Basements.

But predominantly kitchen and

baths, is our main business. Okay.

How long you've been working

in the industry?

In the construction industry,

14 years or so.

I started out working for a roofing,

siding, gutter company,

and I would do their interior

work if it was needed

and that was mainly repair stuff.

And then that kind of built into

bigger and bigger projects to the point

that, you know,

I became having subcontractors

and things like that.

Okay.

Well, what what inspired you

to become a contractor?

I probably growing up,

my dad owned a

had a cabinet shop

that he built cabinets

out of our basement

for as long as I can remember.

He built that into a large

commercial cabinet company

that did store fixtures

and things like that.

So I've always been around

carpentry specifically.

And then basically out of high school,

I decided I wanted to go

in a different realm

and I worked on cars for years.

And then as soon as we bought a house,

I realized there's things

I can do at the house that you know,

that people would pay me to do

and became kind of my own thing.

Okay.

Is I'm kind of curious

because I refer to you as a contractor,

but is there a way

you like to label yourself

more as a contractor?

Remodeler or? Contractor

as a title is fine.

What we do is remodeling

because that gets

you can have contractors

that build new homes.

You can have contractors that do

exterior work, flat work.

There's all kinds of,

you know, different types of contractors.

But specifically we do remodeling.

So remodeling contractor,

I guess would be proper.

So no new construction?

No new construction. Okay.

Do you

focus more on the residential side

versus commercial or both?

We're probably 98% residential.

We've done a few.

Church kitchens, church bathrooms.

That's probably about

as commercial as we get.

But again, 98% residential.

Okay.

And you kind of mentioned,

I think I know the answer

to this question

based on what you said earlier,

but are you a one man show

or do you have a crew

that you work alongside?

I started as a one man show.

I did everything

from plumbing to electric to

any of the carpentry stuff, drywall,

painting.

And then it turned out as I got

busier and busier and busier

and also built relationships

with other contractors

in specific trades that now

I'm more of a general contractor,

so I sub almost all the work

I do, some of the carpentry,

still cabinets and stuff like that,

but mostly subs.

When you say that subs are they,

do they work exclusively for you

or is it on an as needed basis

and do you stick pretty much

with the same crews when you need them?

So I stick with the same crews,

but they are their own business entities.

They have their own insurance,

their own licensing, if it's required.

Plumbers and electricians

are required to have licensing

in the county.

So they are their

own individual businesses.

I do try to use the same contractors now.

I have like more than one painter.

I have more than one electrician.

So it depends on who's available

at any given time.

But they are their own entities.

Is it often availability or is it also

sometimes like like a skill set?

Meaning, if you're doing one

particular type of design, say

a more vintage design

versus a more modern design,

does that influence

who you might use

from a crew perspective?

It influences painters.

In my, my,

my opinion,

it influences painters, carpenters

and like the tile guys

specifically, like in bathroom's

because certain patterns

are more difficult or certain certain

specific tile

material is more difficult to work with.

And so if we want a very specific

look, yes,

I will call a specific tile contractor

over another one.

That's just a simple square

lay or something on a floor.

And then the same thing with carpentry.

The detail of the moldings

and and things, you know,

if it's super specialty

stuff, then, yeah,

we're going to use different contractors

for different projects.

Okay.

So you mentioned you

seem to focus more in

kitchens and bathrooms.

What would you say

is the percentage breakdown of

projects that you do that

are those two rooms versus other rooms?

It's easily

75% of our work is kitchens and baths.

And out of that

probably way

more than half is bathrooms.

We do more bathrooms,

it seems like, than anything.

And that's not by design.

That's simply by need.

Okay.

People coming to you and saying

that's what I want to correct. Correct.

Because you hear that those are the well,

everyone says

kitchens are bathrooms are what

sell a home.

And those are so frequently used.

Certainly that's

where remodels tend to happen

quite often. Sure.

And they're also, in my opinion,

where you need more specialty

because you're going to

you're

almost always going to get into plumbing.

You're almost always going

to get into electrical of some kind.

You're almost

always going to have to like waterproof,

a shower and stuff like that.

So even if you've got

like a basement room out

of where you're putting tile

and they don't have to worry

about waterproofing,

they don't have to worry

about drain setups and stuff like that.

You're not typically moving

plumbing or electric for

a basic, you know, basement redo.

So.

So it's more specialty.

So I think that's why it leads

to having a contractor

do it versus

a DIY or a lower

level contractor,

for lack of a better word.

Do you ever find yourself

when you talk about remodels,

you mainly come into a room

that hasn't been touched, or have you?

Do you find yourself

frequently walking to room

that maybe they try to DIY,

even if it's just

for the removal aspect of it

and you're like, okay, this is fun?

Most of the time our stuff is

never been touched

by the homeowner anyway.

We get into a lot of touched

by other contractors in the past

and so we uncover things that become

problematic or or unexpected.

I do particularly have one homeowner

that likes to start to demo things,

then realizes he can't

and then calls us anyway. So.

So even though he's used you a lot,

he still.

He still like.

Tries it on.

To try to get his hands dirty.

Yeah.

We're starting a project soon for him

and he's already said

he could do the demo.

And then we both laughed and moved on.

Hasn’t been quite successful for him?

No. No.

But if you try, try again.

Maybe eventually. Right? Right.

So you mentioned someone as

you come in behind other contractors,

maybe we've done working.

You find some things

that that are sort of sort of hidden.

How often does that happen?

You see it a lot.

I'll put it this way.

You see

the lot on the TV shows

where they're like,

Oh, wow, We didn't see that

behind the walls.

Everybody's stunned.

At what happens every time.

How often do you run

into that of the didn't see that coming

event?

Honestly, it

depends on the level of house.

So I would say half the houses we work on

are probably older than 1960.

And so the stuff we find in

those is very, very. Old,

contractor issues.

And sometimes it's not so much

that what they did was wrong

at the time they did it,

but by now, today's standards and code,

it's a different deal.

So we have to fix that kind of stuff.

In houses

newer than, say, late seventies,

that's when we get into, oh,

Billy Bob decided

he was going to put in his own dishwasher

or bathtub or something like that.

And it's a more

just wasn't quite done right

or was done at a DIY level.

And then we have to

come in and fix things.

So it just kind of how we find it

and what we find depends

on the age of the house

more than anything, it seems like.

So in those older homes

and you're trying to bring them

current to the current code,

do you run into challenges

with just the configuration of the room

and trying to meet the current code?

Yes.

So it's code within reason.

Code is fairly easy to update to.

It depends on how far are you going

with the remodel because

like right now we have a

bathroom that we're demolishing.

It's in a house

probably built in the thirties.

Give or take.

And so

we're going to we're going to relocate

a toilet

six feet or something like that by code.

The venting needs

venting is not required to be changed.

Therefore, all the cast

iron work and stuff that's in there,

we don't have to manipulate

unless it's actually bad.

But if it was built new from scratch,

we would have to change the way

that was done.

And so again, it depends on

how far you go with some of this stuff

and how extreme it gets as to

how much we have to change for code.

But we always update, you know,

outlets, switches, you know,

anything electrical

has got to be up to code

GFCI or arc fault if needed.

And then

shut offs and the new drain standards

for tubs

versus showers and things like that.

So all that stuff

a hammer arrestors

and things like that

are all modern stuff

that gets added to everything we do

because it's necessary.

So.

So you've mentioned a lot of things

that you

run into electrical, plumbing

and there's flooring

and there's all the different kitchen

and bath products.

Is there anything that's outside

of your skill set

or anything that just spooks you

when you go into a project?

We've been doing

this long enough

and we're so used to working in the

in that in that range of,

again, 30s to 50s houses,

we kind of know what to expect.

So none of it bothers me a whole lot

other than I hate dealing with plaster

if we don't have to.

So as long as plaster is in good shape,

that's the one thing, is

doing real plaster work.

We have a job

we're starting today

literally to kind of re-skim a ceiling.

And that's no problem

being plaster,

but the crown molding in the room

is actually plaster crown molding.

So we're we have to be very delicate

around the edges

to make sure we don't damage that,

because that's a very,

very particular trade

that nobody does anymore

where they actually make these plaster

moldings and stuff.

And so the homeowner is aware that

it's a possibility

if we have an issue with that, that

that we may have to call in

somebody else.

But short of that,

that's the biggest thing that scares me.

My plumber is good.

That's probably what it used to be.

A fear is is plumbing.

But my plumber so good that we don't

we don't really run anything

he can't handle.

Just because of the condition of pipes

where they're located.

Yeah.

And his ability

to fix about anything we need to fix.

You know, he's seen, he's.

He's an older gentleman,

so he's seen everything,

you know, and worked in about everything.

So there's nothing that

if it surprises him, then I get worried.

Okay, so.

If he goes, I don't know what.

What's going on, then I'm worried.

Does that happen often? No.

It hasn't happened yet.

Knock on thing. I'm glad I brought it up.

Yeah. And levy the curse on you.

So ProSource

Wholesale is a business

that caters to trade professionals

and their homeowner or commercial clients.

How long have you been

a member of ProSource?

At least since 2009.

I should probably remember

the exact date, but at least 2009.

So, you know,

14 years, I guess that's been so

quite, quite a while.

I don't know.

I honestly don't know

how long they've been around, but. ‘91. 1991.

Okay, Yeah. Not that long.

So yeah, so 2009.

Okay.

What, what made you join?

At the time we were doing

more entry level bathrooms and stuff

and I

needed a supplier for

specifically shower, shower, stall stuff.

There's a product called Onyx

that they carry.

And so that's a good,

you know,

entry level product

that's better than what

you can buy off the shelf at Home

Depot or Lowe's,

but not super expensive

and not full tile,

you know, custom shower.

And so that that initially was

you guys were a supplier

for them specifically,

you know,

and so that was kind of

what got my foot in the door,

I guess so to speak.

So what keeps you a member? Being,

able to send customers in

and see everything in one spot.

Confidence in who's

going to help them regardless

if it's actually my sales rep,

if they're available,

or another sales rep

and then familiar

familiarity

because I've been with you guys

so long with what products you carry

and you know, even the,

for lack of a better word,

the junky product you guys

carry is still better than much.

You're going to go buy elsewhere

and still competitive on price. Okay.

So I'm trying to do this in my head.

2009, I think right around in there

is when ProSource started

expanding outside of floor,

covering into the kitchen and bath realm.

Sure.

So did you find that advantageous

to when you came on board?

Yes. So

I don't remember how much of a

plumbing department you guys had,

But I do remember, again, you guys

maybe not on display,

but the availability of product

for kitchen and bath was there.

It just may not have been as

you couldn't

walk in and see it necessarily.

But when you

asked it was available.

Showroom still needed to expand a bit.

Yeah, we helped with that expansion.

Oh, look at that. Yeah. Yeah. So.

But yeah, the

showroom still needed to expand,

but the products were

still available there.

But I mean, it's it's increased

exponentially relative

to what it was back then where,

where you can go in and see

a lot of Kohler's

line of product

or Moen's line of product

right in the in the showroom.

And then having displays

where you can get a get an idea of,

okay, this is, this is,

you know, cabinetry layout or this is,

you know, different materials

and how they look together.

You know, in combination.

So.

Okay,

so you may have already answered this,

but I'll ask the question anyway

because it was next on my list.

So what are some of the benefits

of working with ProSource as

a as a trade professional.

Confidence in

availability of product.

If you guys say it's going to be here

in two or three weeks

or whatever it may be, the timeline

so much doesn't matter

because we plan around that,

but the accuracy

of that timeline of products.

So that's a big thing that we've run

into at other suppliers

that is not accurate all the time

or even close to accurate.

The kitchen and bath design

aspect not just having a sales rep there

that's going to go,

yeah, this looks good with this.

But someone who can go

who can who can meld the combination of,

you know, countertops

in a bathroom specifically

countertops, cabinets, fixtures

to have a style there

and give a visual representation

of of of what's going on.

That's that's probably the biggest thing

the two biggest things for me.

Okay.

You mentioned other suppliers.

You don't go to other suppliers, do you?

We don't frequent other suppliers

very often.

There’s the plug.

Yeah, that's all I ask for, man.

Just a little love.

So let's let's flip the other way.

Let's step outside of the showroom

here for a moment.

What,

especially within the realm of kitchens

and bathrooms,

because you've done

so many projects there,

what changes

have you seen

with with remodeling projects

in kitchens and bathrooms over the years?

It depends on what perspective

you look at it from.

But there's

there's been all kinds of change,

in my opinion,

in design since I've started,

you know,

larger format tiles

versus small format tiles,

kind of when I started

like 10x10 or 12x12

or maybe a 15x15 was about

the biggest

how you see now there's

we installed 24x48

tiles in a bathroom.

You know

it's that that that format has changed.

Cabinetry is is now trending

more towards inlay, inset drawers

and doors and things like that

technology and fixtures

kitchens with touch faucets

or motion sense faucets,

things like that.

And Kohler has a

a line of digital stuff

that's kind of really slick.

We don't put a lot of it in, but it's

I mean, it's a total change in how that's

how the interface, the user interface is.

So that's one aspect.

But then from an installation standpoint,

products from Schluter or Kurdi,

where it's waterproofing for showers

or prefabricated pans

that we can customize

to do tile and stuff like that,

that's the big thing

I, I focus on because it speeds up

our, the timeline of us doing stuff

makes things more reliable.

We don't worry about leaks

things like that.

Underlayment for floors have come

a long way, used to kind of

just be concrete board,

and now we've got underlayment

with crack isolation and stuff,

which we're way more confident,

especially in old houses,

where things shift and settle

really, really makes us confident

that we're not going to have grout

popping out or things like that

in ten years

versus the old products.

So a big change in installation products.

Because of what you mentioned there

with a lot of the large format

tiles and planks

that exist now,

how much has that changed

your installation approach?

So up to a certain size,

just tile, specifically

up to a certain size, it's

not that much different.

You 12x24,

you know,

we're going to use clips

on that installation to help help

keep everything flat and level.

And that's that's an amazing thing.

It adds a little bit of cost to the job.

But for the ability to not worry as much

about having a nice, perfectly flat floor

when you get into like 24x48,

that's a different deal.

It's different

different cutters used for the tiles

and you would think it goes faster,

but it doesn't because it covers

so much more surface area

with one drop of a tile,

but you're putting

so much more mortar down and

and back buttering everything.

It's it's no faster,

but it's a

little different in the tools

you need to use to install it

and things like that.

Okay.

Has anyone

I don't know why I'm having this thought,

but has anyone ever

maybe in a smaller powder room

decided to go with just one

big slab for the floor?

We have not done that.

I've heard of that being done.

Really? Okay.

Yeah, I've heard of that

being done with stone.

Just because

as we were talking

about the larger format,

I started thinking I'm like,

Well could you? And I bet you could.

You could, you could.

It would get into

that stone has to be

cut as one big chunk.

You would might get into a weight

depending on how big it is,

you might get into a weight thing

or you need to,

you know, restructure

slightly underneath.

That just kind of depends on

size of the room.

But navigating into the space

would probably be fun.

Oh, yeah, Yeah.

But it would definitely be a smaller

powder room.

I can't imagine a large room now.

I don't think I'm going to see that in

a kitchen any time soon. Yeah, sure.

So when you're working on a kitchen

or bathroom remodel,

how much influence

do you have specifically

on the products that are being selected?

I usually get asked,

What do you see

a lot being used and what has the best

long term durability?

You know,

what do you have problems

with right after install

or a couple of years after installing it?

That's usually the biggest thing I get.

And so I will

usually tell people

we have had good luck with “X” brand

and try to steer people into a brand

and it's more from a reliability thing.

I try not to affect

people's design decisions

because if you get into that

and then it's what you said to do that,

you know, you suggested this look.

And so I will

get an idea of what people want

and I don't mind steering them away

from what I think, isn't that look.

But I never try to force

what is necessarily.

So do you tend to go into the showroom

with them

when they for product selection,

Do you leave it to the account manager

to work with them

or is it a collaboration of all of you?

It depends on the it's

honestly it's job to job.

I have some homeowners

that literally know

exactly what they want.

And there's not not

there's no need for me to steer

one way or the other.

And in cases like that,

usually I'll call up and say, hey,

here's the customer, here's

what they're looking at specifically,

here's what they can't do

based on whatever

it may be, layout or or,

you know, the configuration

of showerheads or something like that.

I'll see what they absolutely can't do

and just give that to the sales rep

and then they can kind

of direct from there.

But then I have some people

that have no clue

and it's helpful for me to be here

just to go, okay,

stay away from this

because it's not what we discuss

in about,

you know, it's more just kind of steering

as opposed to telling them what to get.

And then the designers

are who I rely on for what is

what's just totally a trend

that's not going to last or outdated.

And it's not that

a customer can't do outdated.

We're just going to let them know

this is either outdated

or it's going to be outdated soon

for resale purposes

or whatever it may be.

So unless

you want to stick around for ten,

20 years, everything's retro.

Maybe it will come back around.

Well, and I always ask homeowners,

I said,

How long are you gonna stay in the house?

You know?

So how long are you going to stay in the house?

Number one for trends.

But are you going to be

the only person staring at it forever?

Then get whatever you want.

You know, if you want purple floors,

get purple floors.

If that's what you want,

you're going to be here forever.

But if you think you're going

to sell in four or five years,

you may not want to do

those purple floors.

And here's. Why. Right.

So we kind of touched on here

how much you pay attention

to both advancements with products

and the trends

that occur out the industry

and allowing those to factor

in any type of product recommendations.

I really lean

I do try to keep an eye

on product advancements

to like installation products

and things like that that are what I

what I would call

construction materials stuff.

Nobody sees

but affects the outcome of it.

So I tend to really try to keep up

with that stuff.

On the, the design or style side,

I kind of know what's out there

because I'm in here enough or I'm,

you know, have customers

showing me new things

that they see or whatever.

So I feel like I'm

a little up on that stuff,

but I'm probably not as up

to date as I need to be.

But I also trust again, that's

part of the reason I'm using

you guys or designers, is is there.

They are the ones that are

kept up on that

and they know the latest and greatest.

And so what's available

and what cost is and stuff like that,

how it applies.

Okay,

so like every paint company

loves to come out

with their color of the year

and sometimes it's a nice color,

very common, very neutral.

Maybe in other times it is blinding

in its approach.

Do you find sometimes homeowners

come around and say,

this is the type of color

I want in my room

because this is the trending color?

Does that play into a into design much?

It can. I mean,

everything has to tie together.

I was just talking

to a homeowner yesterday

about how everything is like a Tetris

puzzle of pieces.

And so.

Bringing a Tetris reference there nice.

There.

Yeah.

So, so you know, the color of your wall

can determine cabinet color

or stain can determine countertop tile

or it should any way.

It should have an effect

on what you're doing.

And it's not always

that it has to be matchy matchy,

but it kind of all needs to go together

and have a flow to everything.

And so,

yeah, I mean, sometimes I

have customers come to me and go,

Oh, this is the paint color I want,

and you have to build

around the paint color.

Or they may say, This is the tile

I like,

and you have to build around that tile

or you know, the, you know,

But I try to get people to pick one thing

because once you have one thing,

it eliminates

a lot of other

other selections that that don't go,

if that makes sense. Yeah.

So let's actually talk about that.

Is there something

that's an interesting take in either

bathroom or kitchen?

We could talk about both.

We could split it up. Sure.

Is there a particular product

that you look at and say,

okay, let's choose this,

I'll just randomly throw it out

so you understand what I'm saying?

We look at a bathroom,

you say, choose your vanity

and we'll base everything else,

kind of either that style

or that color in the kitchen.

It might be choose your cabinets

and then based off that color, that's how

that'll help us guide to the other.

Is there one that you tend to lean toward

to drive something?

If they're doing an entire room?

Obviously, usually.

Usually I'll base it on surface area.

So you know, in a kitchen, typically

your countertops are

a lot of surface area.

Your floor.

Obviously it

can be a lot of surface area.

But if it's broken up with an island,

you actually see less floor

sometimes than you do counter

and cabinets are a big factor in there.

But there's also so many options

for cabinet colors.

I think that's actually

an easier selection, if that makes sense.

Okay.

So usually I start with countertops

in a kitchen, in a bathroom.

Usually it's predominantly tile,

you know, tile on the floor,

tile in whatever your shower is.

And so usually I tell people

to kind of start there.

But again, it depends.

We've done some bathrooms

where we actually almost

had more counter space than floor space,

you know, in weird situations.

And so

it's a little bit playing it by ear

and then walls factor in. I mean,

if you have a lot of painted

wall surface area in a bathroom,

sometimes that becomes a huge factor

in in

where you're going to start

with your selection.

Because of the color tone

that's already there.

Correct? Correct. Yeah. All right.

So what are some of the important ways

that communication factors

in to a home

remodeling project and

ensures that it is successful?

I probably

I would think my homeowners

would say I over communicate.

Not a bad thing.

No, I would much rather

somebody have

way too much information and understand

exactly what's going on.

Then I would

not have enough information

and and either be worried about something

or just uninformed, you know,

uninformed, you know,

thinking that

they're not involved almost.

So it helps to make the homeowners

feel involved.

Besides writing a check,

you know,

besides picking your product,

and then all of a sudden

your job's done, write me checks

and then you have a bathroom.

And I have some homeowners

that want to be that way.

And that's perfectly fine.

But I feel like if they understand, okay,

in the next week,

we're going to come in and all your roof

and plumbing gets done.

And so this is going to happen

and this is going to happen.

This is going to happen.

And I don't tell them all the details,

but they have a rough idea

of what's going on

and they know the plumber showing up.

Then they feel like, okay,

I understand this week anyway,

and then the next week

maybe it's electrical or framing

or drywall or whatever it may be.

And so keeping

keeping people informed on on that

and maybe even why we do certain things.

You know, why

why do we have these hammer

arrestors in the walls

and oh,

it's because your,

your pipes bang

and your water pressure is uneven.

And then they go,

oh well yeah,

we've had that the whole time.

Well you won't have it now, you know.

So

having a homeowner be informed

also keeps me from getting weird

phone calls sometimes of,

Hey, hey, we've got this weird,

weird pipe sticking up out of the floor

and we don't. What's that for?

Is it going to go away or,

you know, whatever.

So they're fairly informed enough

to understand what we're doing.

Does the weird pipe go away?

The weird pipe goes away 99% of the time.

It's like, okay,

so you've also got other people

that get involved in this.

So how do you rein it all in?

You've got

you and the homeowner,

but you've got your crew

in here at the showroom,

you've got the account manager

and possibly a kitchen and bath designer.

How do you go about making sure

that everyone's aware of what's going on?

Do you find yourself

being the centerpiece. Of all that?

I am the ringleader, so to speak.

Whether that

whether that show is good or bad

at all depends on me.

So that is the main thing

that homeowners are paying me for

is coordination.

Yes, I very well may do some of the work,

but the main thing you're paying me

for is to coordinate

that the quantities

for the tile are correct

to get them ordered to be on time for,

you know,

when we need to install that

and that permits are pulled

and you know, inspections are happening

and you know, I'm

usually delivering dump trailers

or dropping a trailer

full of material off

or whatever it may be.

And so that whole coordination

and then also

to a degree,

I hate to use the word babysitting a homeowner,

but it's it's

making sure the homeowner

feels comfortable with what's going on.

And and

and again, part of that is them

being informed

and part of that is just passing along,

you know,

passing on any information

from updates on materials

and things like that.

So how beneficial is the showroom

with illustrating that

project to the

to the homeowner

on a more concrete level.

Being it

since the expansion of the kitchen,

a bath section,

you know,

you can walk in and show somebody, okay,

you know, you've got vanity countertop

shower and kind of go, okay,

this floor has to be in

before these cabinets go in.

These cabinets have to be in

for the countertops,

get templated to go in or

the stone for the shower.

I don't know if that

answers your question,

but it's it's an example

of what a finished product looks like,

that I can break down backwards

and say this is

this is the order

of operations for things.

And they can see it firsthand.

Okay.

So I kind of mentioned it earlier,

so they'll swing back to it.

I've mentioned the kitchen and bath designer

in the showroom.

Do you make much use of that service

here at the showroom? Yeah. Yeah.

I have a

specific designer

that I like to work with

because we've worked together

now probably for ten years.

So if I call in and say

I usually send a preliminary

drawing that just says,

You've got this much room for cabinets,

this is rough location

in the room, close to a window,

whatever it may be.

If I say I want,

I want fillers on the left side

or whatever.

She knows what I mean.

What I need for installation purposes,

not just here's your cabinets,

but here's the cleat I need for crown.

She already knows what I want.

She already knows,

you know, filler wise or toe

kick wise are also capability wise

because different

coming from a background of cabinets,

I have no problem

modifying a cabinet

to fit what we need to a degree.

And so she knows what I can and can't do.

Therefore, there's certain things

she knows

she can design for me

that we can accomplish,

that maybe another contractor can't.

So because of the relationship

you've built. Because of the relationship.

Right now, so now you've got that sort of

sometimes an unspoken communication

that you're just in that mind meld

right between the two of you. Yeah.

And we double, you know, we always

I'll get a drawing back

and I'll double check and go,

Yeah, this is on there,

this is on there, this is on there.

But yeah, it's, it works well.

So my next

question is a little bit longer.

I'm going to look down and read it. Sure.

You could take a drink

if you want to go through all this.

In the beginning, no.

So many homeowners don't

fully know

how much a remodel project can cost.

We should probably say

maybe most don't know.

They think they have an idea,

but they probably don't really.

How do you go about setting up

a realistic budget with them

and then along with that, what?

And so I'd look two questions

in one here.

And then what

are some of the common obstacles

you use to navigate

and move forward with the project?

With any challenges you may have

there on the budget front.

So the first is just

how do you make sure

the budget is realistic? Sure.

So I'll preface this slightly.

Most of my customers

budget is a factor, but

I'm blessed

that it's usually not actually

the overriding thing.

They have a number,

but it's it's usually pretty realistic

and it's it's better scale than most.

So anyway, so we start with that, but

I usually don't even ask them a money

number walking in.

I just say,

you know, what would you like to do?

You know,

if it was your dream project

and you do anything you want to,

what do you want to do?

And so they lay that out

and I go, okay,

this is what it takes to accomplish that.

And I go through the technical aspect of,

okay, if the toilet moves, this moves,

this plumbing has got to be rearranged.

You know,

if your basement is finished,

then that means we're possibly cutting

a ceiling out down there

to access things or whatever it may be,

or go

going through a roof with a new vent.

And then

I will usually try

to give a rough number.

You know, just just an idea of,

okay, this is “x” grand.

And, you know, they go

that's that's within budget. Great.

Then that's what we do.

If that's not in budget,

then I go now

what if we

then I start going to alternates of,

okay, if you don't move the toilet

all the way across the room

and we put it here instead,

it saves you “X” dollars

and then we start working backwards

from that step.

Material choice does come in, but there's

a lot of ways

to manipulate materials

to still get a look

That's not

you may not be exactly what they wanted,

but I can get them close

in a lower cost material.

So usually layout

is the most important thing,

say in a kitchen or bath kitchens

or bathrooms,

especially because

we're usually moving things.

Kitchens don't don't manipulate

as much typically. But

so we

start with layout and

then we move to product too,

to back off

product potentially or change product

on the cost.

That's the first part, right?

That's good enough.

So then it was

what are some of the common obstacles?

Do you have that help

you navigate that whole process?

How do you how do you recognize them?

How do you overcome them?

Yeah,

the overcoming typically,

as the homeowner has to accept that

that that that something has to change

in order to make the costs come down.

So again,

whether that's layout,

whether that's material choices,

sometimes I tell homeowners

if that's really what you want,

just wait and save. You know what I mean?

There's nothing wrong with

if it takes

if it's three more months down the road,

but you're going to be

in the house forever

and you want to be your dream bathroom.

Just save the difference

and do exactly what you want.

Because it's something else

you mentioned there.

You said you're often

you're more often

moving things in a bathroom

than in the kitchen.

So I was trying to do this in my head

and let's see if I guess correctly,

you're in a kitchen,

you might have an island,

you have appliances.

Does that sort of fact

factor into why

there's less movement there

versus a bathroom

where maybe you can move the plumbing in

one direction or another?

When I say movement,

it's it's

the amount of work

it takes to move, say, a toilet drain

that's four inches in diameter.

You know, it has to go through floor

joists a certain direction.

But I have a

I have a code that says

I can only drill a hole in the center

that.

joist Less than a third of the size.

And there's a lot more to.

You're moving a water

you know, a water lot for a toilet.

You remove a waterline

and a supply and a drain,

you know, for for sinks.

You're moving two supplies

and a drain for showers.

You're moving again,

multiple supplies and a drain.

And so there's there's

just a lot more to moving

that versus in a kitchen you have a sink

which has those three factors.

But your appliances

are typically a supply line

and a drain line.

That's going to run

back to the sink

or a supply line for a refrigerator

that runs through a pipe underneath.

So it's a whole lot simpler process.

And also to

you may move

we may move more electric in a kitchen

typically than in a bathroom.

But typically electric

is easier to move than plumbing.

And so I guess that's

what it comes down to

is the amount of the amount of plumbing

and how far you have to go with it

is typically more in a bathroom.

So I had another thought hit me here.

You just keep saying these things

and the questions just pop in my head

as we talk about budget,

how much has budget

has the budget changed

over the past few years?

As we've come out of the pandemic?

There's been a lot of price movement,

a lot of a lot of supply chain

challenges.

How much has budget,

from your perspective, changed with your

those projects versus what it was?

I actually just rebid.

I had a project that I did

for a customer in mid 2019.

They called me last week to say

they wanted to go ahead

and execute that project.

So just four years later.

I'm going to ask, is that normal?

No, no, typically not that far.

And actually it may have been 20.

Either way.

Either way, it's been to,

you know, three years,

but I had to rework his bid.

And so it probably went up

20%, give or take.

And so that's mainly

in construction materials

and finished materials.

Just materials went all over the place.

I do pay,

you know, more in labor,

but it's not due to the pandemic.

It's simply

because prices,

you know, slowly prices

increase for labor.

But that was negligible.

But materials definitely

and mid-pandemic materials were insane.

Then I'd be charging

40% more for certain

for certain items,

but it's leveled back out to where,

you know,

I would say roughly 20%

difference, give or take.

And it depends on the product.

Certain things

kind of went back to what they were

and certain things never are still crazy.

So now this one I'm

curious as I look at your face,

how you may react to this one.

There are a plethora of home

remodeling shows out there

across the networks and streaming, etc.

and I'm sure there's

probably a ton of YouTube videos

too, doing the whole thing.

How do you react to all of that?

The vast...

looks like you're trying to find

a politically correct answer. Politically correct.

Yeah.

The vast majority of those shows,

as far as timeline

process

budgets are either.

None of them are, in my opinion.

Nearly none of them are accurate.

Typically, timelines are like,

Oh, we'll have done in a week,

and it's like, not a chance.

You know, we can't

we can't get stone for a bathroom

in a week.

You know, if it's if it's templated

and you'll see them on the show

where they template one day

and they installed the next day,

I'm like that just impossible anyway.

But

so yeah, timelines are completely

out of whack.

It typically seems like

budgets are out of whack.

And I do understand

these shows make money on that.

So there are sponsors

that pay for products,

so that lowers the cost,

but they don't explain that.

They don't say,

well, we got materials for free.

So the labor was this much and so

or that or that.

We had 30 contractors

working on this project

literally 24 hours a day.

So we got it done in a week.

But it's it's

three months of work

for a handful of contractors to do so.

I do understand why it looks like that,

but they don't explain that.

So I get some homeowners that do have a

a disproportionate

view of how long it should

or shouldn't take based on that.

But but I do think they sometimes

can be beneficial

from a design perspective

because they usually do the more extreme.

Usually they're using the latest greatest

and the more extreme styles

and trends and things like that,

which can be good.

I don't know that I would always do

exactly what they do,

but we can pull pieces of that,

you know, from a style perspective

or a design perspective,

which again,

I don't try to get into a whole lot.

And there is there

I remember from a couple of years ago,

there was a show

that was very accurate on budget,

very accurate on work,

but that's what they were more focused

on than the shock

and awe of doing a job in a week.

Anyway, there there, there was one.

I don't know if I can name it on the air

if it matters, but

but the whole Mike Holmes back, back,

back five, ten years ago,

that show was actually accurate.

I mean, when he

you know, he used to say that

basically roughly 50% of your job

should roughly be

materials and 50% is labor.

That's not way off.

You may have

the overall cost is still about same.

You may have a little more,

the ratio may be a little off.

But that was realistic

and all his timelines were realistic.

So they could be dramatic

on, ooh, this is wrong and it

maybe it really was wrong.

But but again,

everything on that show

did seem to actually be accurate,

but they weren't concerned

with getting it done in a week

and they weren't concerned with it being,

you know, the latest

and greatest necessarily just done well.

So so I'm curious,

what if they approached you to do a show?

Would you?

I don't have the personality.

For TV. Show.

I'm not dramatic enough

anything on TV nowadays.

You have to be like,

you got to have,

my gosh, we're going to lose the shop

because we can't

get this done or whatever.

And so I'm not dramatic enough.

Like I said,

my favorite is when they have the big

they are working on it and suddenly

they discover something behind the walls.

It wasn't there.

And every week that happens

and yet they're still stunned

when it happens. Right.

And yes,

you would have to pull out the drama

to make that work.

Yeah, I'm not dramatic enough.

Not for, you know. Okay.

So with all that content that's out there

and we touched on this

a little bit earlier,

a lot of homeowners

are probably going to think, hey,

I could do this on my own

or at least

some portion of this on my own.

Do you find that factoring in

you mentioned some

that like the one homeowner

who is,

no matter what you tell

him, is going to try to do the

removal part anyway on his own? Right.

Do you find that

being influence out there?

Not not terribly often.

But I also

a lot of my homeowners

are repeat customers,

so I kind of get to know them

well enough that

that I know

what their skillset is and what it isn't.

And so there are times when

we may be doing a

like, say,

a big basement or remodel something.

And if they just want to save

a little bit in one aspect of it,

I can go, you know, you're doing LVT

flooring and it's pretty easy to install

and you're perfectly

skilled enough to do that.

And I have no problem

saying if you want to

install the following,

this is a way you can save some money,

you know,

But I'm probably not going to tell

somebody do your own plumbing

or do your own electric.

But there's certain things

that I have a handful of customers

that they can

they're fully capable

of doing certain aspects of the job

that I did

that doesn't, in the end affect me.

You know,

if somebody puts their flooring in wrong

or has a slight issue with it,

that doesn't change whether or not

I'm going to pass an inspection

typically or something like that. And so

I'm not above doing that, but

it's it's few and far between. Okay.

Do you find

find yourself

with some of these projects?

Let's look at flooring specifically here.

Do you find yourself using one

particular product category

more than others?

In other words,

are you doing

more tile or more LVT

since you're doing

kitchens and bathrooms, so much.

I did typically, you know, bathrooms are

I don't know.

It's almost all the time is, is,

you know, porcelain, ceramic

or natural stone tile.

We do have a bathroom in a basement.

It's like a, you know, a third bathroom.

In the scheme of things,

we're going to do an LVT

a luxury vinyl

tile that's a glue down and grout.

Still very nice tile,

but at lower cost, lower

installation cost.

But it's again it's

a third bathroom in the house,

you know, as far as use level goes.

So that works out well we do

we have two basement remodels

going on right now.

So we're doing a lot of LVP

in those the vinyl plank.

But like kitchens,

it's usually either hardwood or tile.

Nowadays it's trending towards hardwood.

It seems like.

But we do, you know, it depends.

It's product,

it's a project dependent, but,

you know, tile, hardwood and,

you know, vinyl products.

Do you find

with all the waterproof technology

that is going out there,

waterproof carries across

all the different product categories.

Do you find that being a factor

in product decisions?

Yeah, definitely.

Especially like basements where,

you know, obviously

if the basement floods,

we're replacing the floor

just for mold issues.

But minor spills

or you've got a wet bar area

down there or something

like that, or even in bathrooms

where again, it's,

you know,

we're typically not going to do it

in a master bathroom,

but a secondary bathroom,

a kids bathroom, a basement bathroom,

you know,

vinyl plank or vinyl tile is

is a great option

for the waterproof,

you know, for just random water issues.

So, yeah.

I had another thought and just

it just escaped me, as you were saying.

That's I'll probably think of it later.

But the one thing I did

consider as

were talking about

the product categories, I'm

guessing you don't do

a whole lot with carpet

and I only say that

because of the kitchens,

the bathrooms realm of it,

but certainly with other rooms. Well.

For whatever reason,

I don't do a lot of

like whole room carpets.

We do a ton of staircases. Okay.

Like so

so runners down

the center of a staircase,

they get a bound edge or whatever.

For whatever reason, we do a ton of that.

And I have two different

carpet contractors that do that for me.

We do do a lot of that,

you know, patterned carpets

and things like that.

And those

you asked me earlier

if something scare me, carpet scares me.

I would have thought one.

And linoleum, which we

I don't think I've ever done

a linoleum job, but carpet and linoleum.

And the reason

why is if my tile guy comes in

and screws up something on a tile floor,

I can reasonably confidently

come in and fix it.

I can pop the tile up,

I can cut new tile,

I can put it in place myself if I had to.

Hardwood floors,

same way LVP, LVT same way.

I cannot do carpet.

So carpet scares me

because I can't come in and fix it

myself.

I'm going to have to pay

somebody to fix that

if it gets screwed up.

So yeah, carpet scares me.

I forgot about.

That.

Duly noted.

Yeah,

but if I want to just freak you out,

I'll just mention the word carpet.

Okay, So last question for you.

Sure, you can take a breath here,

but what advice

would you give to a potential homeowner

who is considering a home

remodel project?

Could be a kitchen, could be a bathroom,

but maybe it's just any room.

What's the advice

you would offer to them?

Picking a contractor is super important

and it seems like common sense.

But I have seen

because things

we found on projects

or just just stories you hear

and there is no perfect contractor, but

just because the guy insured,

licensed and bonded,

which is good things to have

and you want to make sure

they've got that stuff that in.

I don't care

how many bathrooms they've done,

that doesn't mean they do

good work, if that makes sense.

You know,

I've seen

completely unlicensed and

undocumented guys,

for lack of a better word.

Do some of the best work I've ever seen.

And I've seen licensed, fully, fully

documented guys

do the worst work

you've ever seen in your life.

And so it doesn't always mean and it's

cosmetic mostly, you know,

they come and they do it real fast.

Nothing leaks.

It just doesn't look good.

And so seeing pictures,

seeing, having references,

being able to call a homeowner

or if you can walk in a house,

that's

a that's a big

being able to see work they've done.

And really look at it.

Don't don't have a picture

that's 20 feet away

where you can't see certain things.

And so being very specific about that,

which we try to, you know, on my website

tell people anything on my website,

we did start to finish.

That's drywall, that's flooring,

that's counters,

that's cabinets, that's,

you know,

all the plumbing in the room,

the electric,

everything we did from start to finish.

Now there are projects

on my Facebook page

where I'll tell people

this was something we came in

and did a part of a project.

Most of them aren't like that.

But you know,

and I,

we all our rapport, it's

all our business is referral.

So I have no problem

literally bringing in somebody

on any of the jobs

I'm currently working on or in the past.

And I've got customers

that would gladly say, Hey,

send them by and we'll talk to them.

But that's a big factor

in picking a contractor.

Not just

they check all the boxes

on a sheet of paper,

you know, that they're qualified. Okay.

Well, I appreciate you

taking the time to join us here today

and to in all of this. Charlie O’Hearn.

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