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Most therapists don't take a business class in graduate school, let alone go on to get their business degree.
Without any formal education on how to run a business (because that's what starting a private practice is), they're left to figure it out on their own. Until now.
This is Heard Business School. Hosted by Michael Fulwiler, we sit down with private practice owners and industry experts to learn about the business of therapy, together.
We'll see you in class.
Tiffany McLain (00:00):
A conversation going well in my mind is not a client saying, sure, I'll pay that fee. A conversation going well is a therapist saying "My fee is going up to whatever, 250" and the therapist being able to hold their mind, stay present with themselves, continue to think clinically with their client regardless of the client's interaction.
Michael Fulwiler (00:19):
This is Heard Business School, where we sit down with private practice owners and industry experts to learn about the business of therapy together. I'm your host, Michael Fulwiler. Tiffany McLain, welcome to the show.
Tiffany McLain (00:43):
Thank you so much, Michael.
Michael Fulwiler (00:46):
You made it. We had, I made it a few reschedules, a false start there. I think you had the wrong date one time you posted on Instagram that you were coming on the podcast and I saw it and I was like, are you coming on the podcast?
Tiffany McLain (01:01):
I was coming. You just weren't there. Mistake on our end. Whoops.
Michael Fulwiler (01:05):
You're finally here. We're very excited. This is a conversation I've been looking forward to. I think I discovered you on Instagram and whenever I see a therapist talking about money, I reach out.
Tiffany McLain (01:18):
Every time.
Michael Fulwiler (01:19):
Yeah, there's not a lot of therapists out there who are talking about money, so very aligned. Love your message. You have some opinions about money and fees, so we're going to talk about those.
Tiffany McLain (01:30):
Excellent.
Michael Fulwiler (01:32):
Let's dive into it.
Tiffany McLain (01:33):
Let's do it.
Michael Fulwiler (01:35):
So I was doing some reading and I read that your dad was from the projects and your mom was an Adventist farm girl. As you described it.
Tiffany McLain (01:45):
You found the biography written on me?
Michael Fulwiler (01:47):
I did, I did. So my question for you is how did that intersection of poverty, racism, violence and conservative Christianity influence your perspective about money, especially growing up?
Tiffany McLain (02:00):
Wow. Okay folks. So a little background. I was listening to some podcasts of the Heard Business School, some, I don't know, months ago, maybe last year, and I was like, you got to go harder on the race. You look like you were shy a little bit when you're talking about one therapist and you were like, I'm going to come out the bank.
Michael Fulwiler (02:14):
Yeah, we're leaning into it. Lean In. MAKE BANK.
Tiffany McLain (02:16):
I love it. Okay. How did that impact my thinking about money is your question?
Michael Fulwiler (02:21):
Yep.
Tiffany McLain (02:21):
Okay. Wow, you're not messing around. So on my dad's side, he did grow up extreme poverty. In fact, when I was, I think like 16, we were watching 2020, I'm going to date myself. There's this old joke called 2020 and on that show...
Michael Fulwiler (02:36):
On the radio.
Tiffany McLain (02:36):
Radio. On the television, I did a little knob that you click around.
Michael Fulwiler (02:40):
Yeah, it was black and white TV.
Tiffany McLain (02:42):
And we were watching it and whoever the journalist was said, the worst projects in America, the Rockwell projects. And my dad said, oh, that's where I grew up. I was like, what? I had no idea about. He kept from us until recently when now older. So his trauma's all cracking through and eyes will glaze over and he'll go into memories, but I didn't know. So extreme poverty, extreme violence. For those of you familiar with the ACE score? Ace score of, I think it goes up to 10, he's probably like a 15. Anything you can imagine he experienced. And so for him money was elusive, desired. There's almost like a worship, I think there was, I forget the man's name who does money studies, which I should remember because I took a class from him and then I failed out of the class all the time.
(03:28):
Brad Klontz, he's amazing. Brad Klontz does money work, so he talks about money worship. So on my dad's side it's like this desire for money, but all these systems set up against him and his family and generations of my family on that side actually earning money but really wanting it. On my mom's side, Adventist farm girl, there was like, money is bad. Blessed are the meek. It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich person to enter the of heaven. So I'm really conflicted, right? It's like money can provide freedom and escape and a way to get out of racial injustice, but also if you have it, you're bad and you're terrible and you are greedy. And so really these conflicts were playing out in my life in terms of am I allowed to actually want financial success? Am I allowed to want to do well? And then of course I become a therapist where all of these issues are just front and center really playing into the if you actually earn money as a professional, you're good sellout, you're terrible. So then there we go. That's where I came into the picture.
Michael Fulwiler (04:23):
When did that start to come up in a professional capacity? At what point are you starting to think about becoming a therapist and pursuing this career path?
Tiffany McLain (04:34):
I was 27, I believe. I was in LA messing around. My brother who was a Berkeley MBA, he came down and he said, Tiffany, stop messing around. Literally he's like, go to grad school. And I'm like, all right, if I'm going to go to grad school, it's going to be to become a therapist because there's nothing else I could possibly do with my life. But in terms of the money, right from the beginning when I was at my interview, I went to a state school, I wasn't rich. I'm like, I want to get out of this. I want to have a private practice. I don't want to have $200,000 in debt, so let me find what's the quickest, most efficient route to get into private practice. So I went to a state school and I remember even at the interview I remember saying, even though I knew I want to go into private practice and find a way to make good money, I can't say that here. So I really played up. I want to help people, I'm just in it for that. I do want to help people obviously, but it's like I knew even then even in the interview process and I don't know how that I shouldn't talk about my desire to have a private practice. I shouldn't talk about my desire to be financially secure right out the gate.
Michael Fulwiler (05:31):
Why did you feel that way?
Tiffany McLain (05:33):
Oh man, why? I'm going to talk about the triple fold. You didn't even ask for this. The triple fold complex that comes up with therapists who go into private practice. So I particularly work with women folks with marginalized communities, queer folks, even white dudes. So I'm talking about a white dude who grew up without access to financial means. So working class, you have the belief of I got to work 40 hours or 50 hours and I'm going to bear these scrape by. So folks who come from these backgrounds, well there's the societal messages of you're here to serve. That's your job. You should be proud just to be giving of yourself to other people. We can even go further than that. There was a study done by this woman named Ella Lasky in the eighties and she found that most people who become therapists served as helpers in their family of origin.
(06:20):
So they mediated arguments, they made sure everyone else's emotions were taken care of at the neglect of their own. So far from the time you're a little kid, you're like making sure everyone else is taken care of, you're putting your needs to side. Then you go into this larger society that says you're here to serve, you're here to help other people. How dare you want more even based on your demographics, you're paid less for the same job and then you become a therapist. So you have all these people coming into the field of therapy where the message is reinforced, you're here to serve, you're here to give back. How dare you ask for anything else, sell out. If you do from the time you're little, you enter into society and then you come into our profession where all these messages are heaped upon you. So for me, being in each of those stages, helper in my family largest society where I feel like I'm someone like me doesn't deserve to make money to what I see reflected. And then I came into this field where my job is to help people and serve. I don't know how I even had that sense. I had not been in grad school before, but even on that interview I think that myself and many therapists were already coming in with that paradigm and so we just come into a place where that's reinforced and it's a concentration of people who already have this belief internally and externally and then we all come together and reinforce it for each other in grad school.
Michael Fulwiler (07:33):
Do you feel like that's generational? It's something that has been passed down and that's starting to change or do you think it's still very alive and well today?
Tiffany McLain (07:43):
In our profession? Therapist?
Michael Fulwiler (07:45):
Yeah.
Tiffany McLain (07:46):
I have been doing this work since 2015, so I dunno if that's eight years, 10 years now.
Michael Fulwiler (07:51):
10 years, 10.
Tiffany McLain (07:52):
Holy mackerel. When I started thinking about it, I started my business in 2016 and then really started the emphasis on money in 2017. I feel like there's certainly been a shift over that time.
(08:03):
There are therapists out there now who are talking about cash pay $250. That was not happening seven years ago. I'm patting myself on all the backs, giving myself a lot of credit for being on the forefront of going out there and saying, we deserve to make money. I'm going to advocate, you are going to advocate for your patient's therapist, but I'm going to advocate for you because there's literally no one out there. I'm going to take that back. There's one therapist I found 75 years ago, maybe it was Casey Truffo and she had Be a Wealthy Therapist and I remember a PDF Google thing maybe back when the internet was just starting. She was talking about that, but it was not like she was the only one I ever found. On one hand, Michael, I'll say it's certainly changing. I can put out a reel now or Facebook ad and I don't get just attacked. I used to just get attacked these days. No, and that being said, I'm still shocked that I talk to therapists every single week who still are like, nobody I know is doing cash pay. Everyone I know is on insurance. They feel guilty for raising fees even though they have no retirement, they're single moms, they still feel like, am I really allowed to do this? So a lot has changed and we have so much further to go.
Michael Fulwiler (09:10):
What I've observed talking about race, generally the therapists, you were talking about charging premium fees, charging 250, $300 a session are generally white women too. And so there's also privilege there and so I think representation in these conversations is also important.
Tiffany McLain (09:26):
Look at this guy, folks. Look at this guy's talking about race back. That's absolutely right. That's an excellent boy and it's actually not something I think about too often. I do have... often therapists who come to work with us and say, I didn't know black women. I didn't know black women could do this or I didn't know I could do this as a queer person or a trans person. I'm not queer or trans. But just seeing someone from a marginalized community being out there saying, you deserve to have it too. I think it's very important to have advocacy and representation in that way, so I appreciate that you brought that up. High five.
Michael Fulwiler (09:59):
Thank you. I want to go back to your private practice. So did you go right into private practice then out of grad school? I think I read that you charged $180 per session right out of school?
Tiffany McLain (10:09):
Not out the gate.
Michael Fulwiler (10:11):
No, not out the gate. Okay.
Tiffany McLain (10:12):
I went to grad school and then I did a two-year, I think it was a postdoctoral program, psychoanalytic postdoc, but they let in a couple masters, groveling master's students in there. Thank you. Access Institute. So I went and I did a private practice setting there, but they had really, their top of their sliding scale was one 10, bottom was $30 and that's actually where I started paying attention to this money stuff because they wanted the therapists there to address fees every six months with our clients, especially if they were on the sliding scale. Let's talk about money, let's see if we can get it up. And this trading program, they were also struggling financially of course, because they're serving folks who are really struggling financially as well. Some of them I was paying attention, the director would say, nobody's raising fees, folks, we should be raising fees every six months, and literally no one was doing it.
(11:01):
I thought, okay, one, I see this is a problem. Two, I knew I was going to be going out into private practice after this and if I wanted to be able to have a sustainable business, I had to figure out this money stuff. I made it my goal in that two year training program, I want to talk about money. I'm going to do that thing every six months. I was terrified. It was so anxiety provoking. I would talk to my supervisors about it, which by the way, they could only kind of talk about it. So I was like, I have to figure out how to do this because I'm going to go out. After that, I went to a private practice internship under a supervisor who I loved lesbian woman, I respected her. She was hardcore, she was a therapist, a psychoanalyst, meaning you however remained 10 more years and an md, she was a psychiatrist, so that is 20 years of school and a medical doctor and her fees were one 50 and I was like, even I can't charge more than her.
(11:49):
So I came out of into private practice with her under her and set my fees at one and even then it was like, okay, I can't charge more and I would take people lower than that. So even as I was trying to work on it, there was this hierarchy and the people who are above us are more seasoned are like if they can't even charge and they're not charging more than 150, how can I, even though I live in San Francisco, even though it's the most expensive city in the world at the time, it was wild.
Michael Fulwiler (12:13):
What are some of the wrong ways to set your fees? You mentioned comparing yourself to someone else and then setting it $10 or what are some other incorrect ways to set your fees that you see therapist?
Tiffany McLain (12:24):
Yeah, that was actually, there's some article I wrote called the, I think it's 10 myths about setting fees as a therapist. In my practice, first article I wrote, it was like that was the one setting your fee based on the market. That's bullshit because one therapist, no therapist is actually going out there and assessing the market. They're looking on Psychology Today, seeing what the three people are charging and then they're like, okay, I guess that's what I can charge. So don't assess the market. That's not the way to set your fee and also you're not actually doing it therapist. Another one is setting fees based on what feels right, like, oh, I just am going to go kind of feels right in my gut. Again, because we talk about all the systems set up against us, our guts are going to be devaluing ourselves and our guts are going to be devaluing our service. So if we're setting our fees based on our gut, we're going to be undervaluing the work we do as individuals, but also the work we're doing as professionals. I'll pause. I could go on, but.
Michael Fulwiler (13:14):
So don't set your fees based on vibes. You're saying.
Tiffany McLain (13:17):
On vibes, Michael?
Michael Fulwiler (13:18):
No, for our younger listeners. Yeah.
Tiffany McLain (13:21):
The children in the audience. I don't also say, oh man, don't set your fees based on what your colleagues are doing or even your own therapist or supervisors. I say this because we don't actually know what anybody's situation is. There are so many therapists who have partners or spouses who are making the main income or they come from generational wealth and we just have no idea. I have a good friend who in my mind were in a similar class or income bracket and one day she casually mentioned that her parents gave her, had been giving her 35,000 a year her whole life just like, oh, that's part of just what she got, and it was nothing that was just known. So therapists don't look around at anyone when you're setting your fees, don't look at other people to determine what your fee should be. We know nothing about what their lives are like.
Michael Fulwiler (14:07):
Something else I've heard you say is if you look at someone's website or Psychology Today, the fee that they have listed may not be their actual fee. They may have raised their fee and they just haven't updated their website, so it may not even be accurate either.
Tiffany McLain (14:19):
And I'll say actually the opposite I find is true is they'll say on their website, oh, my fee is 200 or 250. I'll even ask them, what's your fee? They'll say 200, and I'll ask, how many people are you actually charging that to? Oh, well I have one and the rest are field are on insurance. I have no one out actually at that fee.
Michael Fulwiler (14:36):
What about the population that you work with in setting fees based on that? We had Dr. Ayanna Abrams on the show who is a black female therapist and she talked about how she had this belief that, oh, black women and black people, they won't pay for therapy. I have to take insurance if I'm going to serve that population.
Tiffany McLain (14:54):
I love Ayanna. I don't know her, but already I like what she's saying. I remember when I went into practice in San Francisco and I was going to set my fees and I thought I'm in the psychoanalytic community, which are mostly white folks, mostly older white folks. I'm in San Francisco, which is like majority white folks, and I thought I had a good friend who actually told me, Tiffany, I would go to a black, she's not black. I would go to a black person for business coaching, but I want to go for therapy. So even that, I'm glad she was honest, but I even have my own friend being like, I want to go to a black therapist. And so I thought, okay, nobody's going to refer their white patients to me. White clients, white folks don't want to see black folks and if I'm only going to see black folks or people of color, they can't afford me. And then I had to stop and be like, wait, what the fuck? Tiffany, talk about internal lens racism, like really no black folks can afford me. So I also had to be noticing how I was projecting my own situation onto everyone else in the world.
(15:49):
That's something I see often with therapists is they say nobody can afford 250 or $300 and that's because they are not paying 200 or 350 to their own therapist and they're surrounded by people who are broke and they come from families who are broke, so they literally can't conceive of the reality that there are more than enough people in their city or their town or this country who could pay them $300 per session and have the resources to do so. But because they're in their own paradigm of being broke and living financial and financial scarcity, they're not aware of what's actually out there.
Michael Fulwiler (16:20):
Right. It does raise the question of access, right? If I'm charging 250, 300, there are people who can't afford my sessions and what if I still want to serve that population or community? How can I do that?
Tiffany McLain (16:32):
You want to hear my real talk? You said I have opinions coming up here.
Michael Fulwiler (16:35):
Yep, I'm seated.
Tiffany McLain (16:37):
Here it is. There are ways that can be done. Certainly we can talk about that in a minute, but I actually want to start before we talk about ways that can be done. The reality is if you're going into business, which I talked to therapists in private practice, which is a business, the purpose of going into business is to create an entity that takes care of you and your family financially, emotionally, psychologically for your whole life and for the generations that come after you. That's the purpose of a business. So if a therapist is going into business, that is literally the purpose of the business. If you want to serve folks who can't afford you, stay in a group practice, work for an agency, find another way to serve. You can serve people who can't afford to pay, but you cannot have a business serving people who cannot afford to pay. That's the over under how I think about this from a bigger perspective. Do you want me to talk about how you can give back in your business if you want to?
Michael Fulwiler (17:31):
Sure.
Tiffany McLain (17:32):
I will. First of all, but if you want to, I think about this in terms of seasons of life. If you are somebody who is, I was just emailing someone today who's a new mom, you know what it's like New Parenthood. That's not the time to be offering this sliding scale. When you're burnt out, overwhelmed, you don't enough money to pay your bills. That's not the season of life to be serving any therapist in private practice has already served thousands of hours. That's what we actually have to do as part of our licensure on training. We've already done thousands of hours and my guess is even before going to grad school, you've done years of low fee, low wage work, way more than most people who work in corporate America. You've done your season of service now you're in a season of wealth building personal security, building up your retirement, making sure you can take care of yourself and your family.
(18:18):
Once you get your business to a point where you're taking care of financially, you have your retirement set up. You know that if when you get injured or your partner gets injured or your kid gets injured, you could take care of them. I'm supposed to be on jury duty this week. I got off. When you're in a position where if you have to go serve on a case for three weeks, you're like, I got it because I have enough money in my bank that I can do my civil service. Excellent. That's when you can start thinking about, oh, how can my business give back? How do I want my business to serve? That can be through money setting up charitable donations. You and your kids can go do a weekend volunteering event where you're giving back. There's all kinds of ways to give back, but you don't have to have your, and you should not have your business giving back built into your, how do I say this? Your financial security does not have to be your mode of giving back. There are all kinds of ways to give back that don't rely on you sacrificing your own and your family's financial security.
Michael Fulwiler (19:13):
One of the arguments that I've heard in favor of charging premium fees is it enables you to have sliding scale spots on your caseload. So if you're charging 250, $300 a session financially, you're able to see clients for $50 or $75, but you have kind of a different take on sliding scale or something we've talked about, and it's that therapists tend to use sliding scale as a way not to charge their fee. Could you talk about that?
Tiffany McLain (19:40):
I'm going to talk about this in two ways. One, just strategic business and also clinically from a strategic business standpoint, most therapists slide their scale because they're afraid or they use it as a marketing strategy. I'm going to just drop my fee lower than anyone else to get clients in. It's okay if you want to do that, as long as we're not acknowledging that you're doing that as to avoid learning how to market and charge premiums fees charge for the value of your work, you're devaluing your work budget bargain basement, offering your therapy to avoid learning a skill that could actually really help you from a clinical perspective. We do a lot of this work in my program, Lean In. MAKE BANK. Academy, it is really tricky to offer someone a sliding scale and it warrants a lot of clinical thinking. Who are we offering that sliding scale to?
(20:32):
Why? How do we come to it? How is codependence playing into that? What is that person you're working with? What's the message you're sending them when you are saying, my fee is 250, but for you, I'm only going to charge 75. I can say when I was working with a therapist for about two years on his sliding scale, white man straight, right man, I believe I was paying $40 per session and I had to be in my own psyche, nice kind, obsequious, fawning. I had to be a good client. Once I was able, I got access to out of network insurance and I could pay his full fee of 180. I fucking was like, I don't have to do that anymore. And I wasn't even aware of how I was doing it. It was unconscious and he wasn't bringing it up like, Hey, what does it mean to be on this scale? If you're not paying me in money, how are you paying me if your clients are not paying you in dollars, they're paying you in some other way. So once I was paying that 180 and I wasn't just nice fawning anymore, that treatment fell apart fast. Right? So I want you to be thinking clinically what's happening relationally in the unconscious process when you're saying you get a discount, nobody gets a discount, therapy costs something and if not money, it's coming out of some other place in that treatment.
Michael Fulwiler (21:41):
Yeah. That's so interesting. I've heard you talk about how therapists will offer a sliding scale before they even know that's something that the client needs and so on that initial consultation call or in that intake session they'll say, my rate's 200 but I have a sliding scale. So they'll just jump into that and that sounds like that's what you're talking about. They're making an assumption that, oh, this client can't afford me or maybe I don't feel worthy of charging my full fee.
Tiffany McLain (22:05):
That's right. It just came up actually with my, I'm not calling you out. I have a couples therapists who I just started with who's amazing. I've sent three people her way in the past six weeks since I've been working with her, so I'm filling up her practice, but she did that. My fee is 250, but I can make changes. My sense is she did it out of her own anxiety. This is what I do, and I still, in the back of my mind I thought, is it because I'm black? Why was she so quick? If me and my partner, he's white, if we were both white and we were dressed some kind of way and I didn't have tattoos, would she have just stopped at my FIAs 250? Did she lower it based on something about us, something about me? We never addressed it. I don't have time. I'm here to talk about my relationship, but I can't help but think about all the ways those kinds of things are showing up in therapy dyads where the therapist is lowering the fee and not saying anything about it.
Michael Fulwiler (22:53):
So we've talked about how not to set your fee. What is your advice for a therapist to set their fees? What is the right way for a therapist to set their fee?
Tiffany McLain (23:02):
As an analyst, I'm like, everything is gray. What's really right? Everything's nuanced in this situation. I'm like, there is a right way to set your fee, which is setting it based on the reality of your financial needs and your desires. We have a fun with fee calculator. I'm sure you'll link to it in your show notes. Folks need to know what are their bills every month and even here if you therapists are like, I'm not quite sure how much my bills are every month, or I'm not quite sure what my financial situation is, this is an amazing practice to start getting in touch with reality. I think about money as our relationship to reality, which is there are clear things that have to happen in our lives. We can be mad about it. We can raise our fist like time. I tell my son, you got to be ready by 9:45 because we got or 6:45 because we got to get ready for school.
(23:47):
And he is like, I hate time. Time is a real, it's like, look man, we're going to have to go to school and he'll just try to turn the clock this morning. He was trying to turn the, I'm like, you can turn the clock there, but I still have it on my phone and it's still on the oven. Time is continuing forward even if you change that clock, and he was so mad. It's true. And so therapists need to understand what's the reality of their financial situation, but then I also encourage therapists to dream. What do they want? Do they want vacations? Do they want to be able to pay off their student loans? Do they want to be able to have retirement so that they're not having to work till they're 110? Do they want to have a safety cushion for when the inevitable sickness happens or life happens?
(24:25):
Build that in as well. What do you want for your kids? I then have therapists with this calculator determine how much time they want off every year and how many hours they want to work a week. Most therapists don't do good work, just to be honest. Seeing 25 or more clients a week, I haven't found very many therapists who can really show up fully and present and psychically there when they're seeing that many people. So in your ideal situation, what would your work be like if you were seeing 15 clients a week, 12 clients a week? You get really honest with yourself about that. Plug it into this calculator, the number that comes out, that's your fee. It doesn't mean that's your fee tomorrow, but that's literally the fee that you need to be working towards in order to actually take care of your life.
Michael Fulwiler (25:06):
For therapists who are listening, who are nodding and maybe they're driving and they're like, yes, Tiffany, this is what I want. How do you raise your fees? What are the best practices to follow when raising your fees from thinking about, okay, how much do I want to raise it by? How do I bring that up with my client? Can you walk through that process and how you help therapists to raise their fees?
Tiffany McLain (25:30):
Yeah. This is so simple. The way you do it is once you have your fee, let's say it's 250, that's the fee I have to be charging, and right now I'm on insurance panels and my clients are paying 1 25 or maybe 180 and they need to be paying me 250. In reality, the way to do it is to say, Betty, I just want to let you know as of September 1st, my fee's going to be 250 and we're going to be doing weekly appointments. I'm only going to see people weekly. Then you shut your mouth and Betty will have a reaction or not. Betty might say, great, I'm down. Betty might say, what? How could you, Betty could say nothing, and then in the next session you could start hearing material that's relating to that. That's all it is. Now, the hard part of that is all the unconscious stuff that therapists are bringing into the situation, which make that impossible to do.
(26:17):
Some therapists do that. Therapists sometimes listen to me for years or only listen to me one time and they say, that makes sense, and they go do that thing. For any therapist who cannot simply say, oh, I need to be charging 250 to take care of my family and my health, lemme go do that. For any therapist who can't do that, we're just going to be in touch. You can reach out to me, Tiffany, at Lean and Make Big. I'll help you out because there's so much stuff underlying that's keeping you from being able to simply do what you need to do in order to have a business that functions.
Michael Fulwiler (26:42):
Being a therapist is about helping people, not crunching numbers, but when you're running your own practice, managing finances can feel like a full-time job, one you never trained for. That's where Heard comes in. Heard is the financial management platform built just for therapists. No more cobbling together spreadsheets, DIY software or expensive accountants. With Heard, you get bookkeeping, tax support and financial insights all in one easy-to-use platform. Heard was started by an accountant and a software engineer who understand the challenges you face as a business owner. Our mission: to make it incredibly easy for therapists to manage their practice as a business, build wealth and stay focused on what matters most, their clients. Join thousands of therapists who trust Heard with their finances. Schedule a free consultation today at joinheard.com/consult.
(27:40):
Something that makes that conversation difficult that I've heard is that a lot about your clients, about their financial situation. You know that they may not be able to afford this hire fee and you have a relationship with them. Maybe you've been working with them for a while. How do you navigate? How do you navigate that when it's difficult? It sounds simple, right?
Tiffany McLain (27:59):
Yeah. You're bringing up this is the clinical work. I'm like, how do I talk about this in five minutes or less? Okay. Many therapists just real talk, do really shitty work, and what I mean by that is they want to be nice. They want to be the supportive therapist. They want to be the good object for their clients. What they're often avoiding is the reality of their needs and also the reality of grief, loss, mourning, separation, individuation. There's a lot of clinical work that comes when your clients are faced with reality, and we can even take this into a marriage, a couple. There could be one member of the couple who has realized they've been putting aside their needs in order to take care of the other member, Marian and Natasha. Natasha has learned to function in the world, relying on Mary, doing all of the work, all of the emotional labor and cleaning the house.
(28:53):
I don't know it was Mary or Natasha. Natasha might at some point say, I'm not cleaning the house anymore. I can't do it all and still function. That's going to have an impact on Mary. Mary's going to have to learn and grow and change and suffer, and if Natasha's going to fully be human in the world, that's what has to happen. If they're going to stay in a relationship, it's actually a gift to Mary to show up honestly and say, here's what I need in order to keep being in this relationship and Mary, and I'll be here with you, Mary fully for your anger, for your sadness, for all that it brings up in your attachment wounds. I'm going to lean into that as your partner. People pay attention to my business, to the Make Bank part. Make big Tiffany, you want to a scammer, but the lean in part is actually what's more important and where our therapists really experience profound change, which is one of the things we can give our patients or our clients that most people cannot, is the ability to sit with them even when we're the ones causing them pain.
(29:43):
Most people in our client's lives are get defensive, put it back on them. It's not your fault or it's your fault, not mine. If we're a therapist who says, my fee is going to be 250 as of September 1st, and the client says, I can't pay it. What am I going to do? Or you're betraying me, and the therapist says, you really didn't expect that to happen. I'm the one person in your life who thought things were going to be stable, and now it feels like I'm doing exactly what your mom did to you and we're present with them. That actually gives them a chance to deal with pain and loss and grief that they've never been able to do with another person before. So that's how I think about a clinically, just because they can't afford it doesn't mean we don't need it, right?
(30:18):
If we keep our fees low because they can't afford it, that's codependence, that's toxic. That's actually an unhealthy relationship, so our job is to actually be with them through the transition as they make the decision about whether they want to stay and do the work with us at that fee, how do they do it? What would it take? And as a therapist also my job to think with you, what do you need to charge 250? What would have to change in your life to be able to afford this session? Wow, what rich work? Let's fucking do that. Our therapists have found that when they actually lean in, the level of their work increases. The clients feel like, I had a therapist tell me recently, we haven't done this level of work in two years. This feels like the kind of work we did when we were just starting. It's renewed, it's present, it's real, it's honest, and the clients actually often find a way, not always, but they'll find a way to pay that 250 because something's alive in the treatment that has not been alive in many years or ever. Yeah,
Michael Fulwiler (31:05):
So it sounds like having that conversation about money is an opportunity to deepen the relationship, something that you wouldn't get with an AI therapist,
Tiffany McLain (31:15):
Fucking AI therapist, ai, I have my ai, Frankie Frankie, they're fabulous. They just tell me everything I want to hear all the time. I have to be like, Frankie, be more critical. Frankie, tell me the truth and Frankie will do it.
Michael Fulwiler (31:25):
I have heard that as an argument against using AI for therapy is an AI therapist is not going to let you down. They're not going to hurt your feelings, and that's an opportunity in the therapeutic process to actually go deeper. Hundred percent, and that's when you can deepen your therapeutic alliance and relationship in a way that you can't with talking to a robot
Tiffany McLain (31:46):
Fucking robots. You have a kiddo. Now, I have two kiddos. If I'm always showing up for them as a parent who's never failing them, that's going to be real fucked. When they go out into the world and they're failed all the time, what's better is when I say to my son yesterday, Rufus, we got to go, and then that night I say, you know what, Ru, this morning I was in the red zone. I need to practice being in the green zone. I'm putting a sticker on my, this is true. Yesterday I put a frog sticker on my hand and I said, this is going to remind me in the morning like, oh, if I start feeling frustrated, I can be in the green zone. He then learns, so he learns both my mom and I, we could be mad and have a repair, build resilience, and I'm also learning, oh, here's how someone develops emotion regulation. Here are some real tricks. That's really what allows therapy to grow, not being in therapy and giving clients advice about what they could do in their lives. They can get that from their hairstylist. It's the relational ruptures and repairs that actually allow growth and change in.
Michael Fulwiler (32:40):
So when you're raising your fees, would you ever recommend keeping existing clients at the same rate and raising fees for new clients or would you recommend raising your fees across the board?
Tiffany McLain (32:50):
Always across the board. Here's why. First of all, many therapists, they're seeing 30 people a week. They can't take on anyone new. I could be honest. If you're seeing 30 clients a week on insurance panels, the type of work you're doing is not going to be the type of work that someone's going to pay you $250 cash for. You're just not present. You don't have the competence or capacity to show up. Secondly, just like you said, there's a real opportunity for growth when you bring reality into the session in your needs. Nick Bogner said this, the only need you have as a therapist that it's the client's job to fulfill is your financial need. That's the only thing the client actually has to take care of you financially. That's the nature of the relationship. If they're not doing that, it's coming out. They're paying you some other way and by raising your fee, you have the opportunity to address the ways they are unconsciously paying you in debt to you that they don't know about or that you don't know about, and you see it when your client comes in with a nice purse and you feel resentful or your client goes on vacation and you're mad or you're just burnt out and frustrated, or they're coming in complaining and you're sick of their shit, right?
(33:54):
Those are all signs that they're not paying you enough money and it's playing out clinically.
Michael Fulwiler (33:59):
Do you think that you can build a practice that meets your financial needs by taking insurance
Tiffany McLain (34:03):
One can. My buddy who I was talking about, who gets 35,000 a year from her parents, but she can, folks who have spouses who make a lot of money, they can, I was about to say a single mom in rural Arkansas maybe, but actually not, because she might have to see 25 or 30 clients and I know what it takes to show up for my kids. I don't think you can show up fully for your kids or yourself or your family or your clients having to see that many people. Look, you just put me into a real controversial conversation. Can any therapist take insurance clients? Here's what I'll say. If you can see fewer than 20 clients a week, probably closer to 12 or 15 insurance clients, and for whatever reason, your financial situation is such that you can easily afford to pay all your bills, go on vacation, show up fully, then yes. If you have to see upwards of 25, 30 more people, then I don't think so.
Michael Fulwiler (34:55):
I've heard you say on Instagram that if you're white, if you come from money, if you have privilege, take insurance. You're the ones that should be taking insurance, and those are typically the people who aren't taking insurance.
Tiffany McLain (35:04):
Oh, oh shit. That's right. Rich therapist, only rich therapists. Only rich people should take insurance as therapists. Yeah. Hot take.
Michael Fulwiler (35:14):
Hot take. Let's talk about Lean In. MAKE BANK. So you started Lean In. MAKE BANK. in 2019.
Tiffany McLain (35:21):
I actually started in 2017.
Michael Fulwiler (35:23):
2017. My facts are wrong.
Tiffany McLain (35:25):
Your facts. You doing a lot of research.
Michael Fulwiler (35:27):
We need to fact check. It's just I'm the research team.
Tiffany McLain (35:30):
I think I actually started running the program the Lean In. MAKE BANK. of 2017. I formed the business officially, so the business was Hey Tiffany before that. What a terrible business name. Also Lean In. MAKE BANK., terrible business name. I started this company in 2019, but I've already been running the program for two years by then.
Michael Fulwiler (35:47):
Okay, and why did you start? Hey, Tiffany.
Tiffany McLain (35:51):
Hey Tiffany. Two reasons why I wanted to understand how to become an entrepreneur and make money and have something, what's true, this is terrible. I had clients who were paying me $30 an hour and I was like, this is not going to fly in San Francisco. Let me start a whole new business to be able to supplement the income from clients. I'm afraid to actually have the money conversations. That actually was part of what was going on. I chose to work with therapists. I was a therapist. I was easy to go into. I was originally thinking like, oh, marketing for therapists. That's what everybody kind of does, but over and over again, I was paying attention to this money stuff, this money stuff, this fee stuff, and I'm like, there's literally no one who's talking about this. And it's a problem that every single therapist I talk to has and nobody's addressing it. So lemme actually go into this area and see what we can discover here.
Michael Fulwiler (36:33):
And how has the business evolved over time? Can you walk me through what the business looks like today in terms of membership and courses and things that you offer?
Tiffany McLain (36:41):
Yeah, it's really interesting. So tried. I've done added offers, taken away offers, done a lot of different things over time, but I've always had this since 2017. This one core offer, Lean In. MAKE BANK. Back in the day I did five week sprints. You join Lean, you have five weeks to raise your fees. Weekly sessions, no cancellation policies, get it done in 2020. We changed it to a six month program, maybe a year now it's six months. We have a ton of support. So we walked people through, here's how you do it, here's how you raise your fees, here's how you address your policies. Here's how you actually understand your unconscious money anxieties that are getting in the way of both the money you're earning and your clinical work. We've also, this year, added the marketing piece, which people have been asking me for years, and I'm like, no, finally. I'm like, fine, I'll do it. So now I also help therapists, how do you actually find these premium fee clients? How do you work with them? What's different about working with these folks? We have five monthly calls. My program is underpriced Michael,
Michael Fulwiler (37:40):
Let's talk about that. We should raise your fee.
Tiffany McLain (37:43):
We have raised it, so we've actually raised it a thousand dollars this year. We raised it. Oh, we once to $5,000. But we have, I teach in there marketing and mindset. We have mentors who have gone through the program successfully and gone from both of our mentors. Now we're on all insurance panels now they charge 250 cash pay, they're full. So those folks are in there, and so we really handhold with our therapists through this process of how do you actually do it? How do you actually go from 30 people all on insurance? I don't know what I'm doing. I'm burned down stress to like, oh, I'm seeing 12 people at 250 and I have my life back. That's what we do over
Michael Fulwiler (38:18):
There. Are there specific success stories that stand out to you that you'd be willing to share?
Tiffany McLain (38:25):
Look at everybody. Get on the Heard Business School podcast. What a fabulous platform. We actually have a podcast called The Money Sessions. We have this fabulous guy from Heard who came over and was on an interview there, Andrew,
Michael Fulwiler (38:39):
But
Tiffany McLain (38:39):
Most of our,
Michael Fulwiler (38:40):
Not me,
Tiffany McLain (38:40):
Not you. We tried to be you like, I'm not going to do it. No, no,
Michael Fulwiler (38:44):
I'm busy.
Tiffany McLain (38:44):
I'm busy. I know I got things to do. We have over a hundred episodes that are therapists telling their stories, and most of them are our students of how to get from all, every kind of story you can imagine. Any therapist is like, well, that would never work for me because I'm queer and my partner's trans and I only want to work with L-G-B-T-Q Youth. I'm like, that's Shaw, ENA. We have that story. Or just any story. Single moms primary breadwinners. So one story that really stands out to me, Audrey Shane, do you know Audrey? Has she been on your podcast? Do you need her on?
Michael Fulwiler (39:16):
Not yet.
Tiffany McLain (39:17):
Okay. Audrey came on. So she joined Lim, my program because she had a spouse who was a police officer and she told me, I think it's something like 50% of police officers have heart attacks by the age of 48 as compared to something like 1% of the general population. And she's like, I have to retire my husband before he has a heart attack. I can't do this. So that was her goal. How do I build a private practice where I can retire? My husband, she has twins. I don't know if she has three kids or just the twins, but so she's a mom, she wants to retire. Her husband. She came into the program and she was able to do that. She was able to retire her husband, raise her fees, get honest about what she needed. Her husband ultimately went back to school and she's still supporting the whole family as her husband's moving into another profession. So many women who become primary breadwinners who surpass their husband's income, single moms who find a way, I think it was Rashida who she travels all the time, but she traveled to Mexico with her son over COVID because she'd raised her fees enough to have the income to be able to do that. So just so many stories that are blow my mind, get me all teary all the time and make me be like, how did they do this? How did I help people do? I'm often shocked that by the results students get consistently.
Michael Fulwiler (40:31):
That's amazing and you do a great job sharing those stories too. So definitely recommend checking out that podcast at Lean In. MAKE BANK. You have a four step framework. Can you walk me through what your four step framework is that you walk therapist
Tiffany McLain (40:45):
Take people through? Yeah. The first is it's called Your Society, your Society, and it's actually about helping therapists understand how to be in community with other premium fee therapists. What I found, the reason I started with this module is so many therapists, when you see someone, we see our colleagues charging 200 or 250. We can feel envy, hopelessness, disappointment, that's something they can do, but I'm never going to be able to do it. So we actually have a very clear process for helping therapists understand how to think differently about their successful colleagues and how to actually be in connection and community with them versus envy or despair. We also have a very clear process. I hear from so many therapists who are like, this is the most amazing community I've ever been a part of. We have a very clear process to help therapists get help without dumping on each other.
(41:35):
Therapists, when we have a hard time, when we have a question, we process, process, process dump, and then our reader is left where the listener is like, I don't even know what I'm supposed to do. We really help therapists understand how to think clearly, think critically, and ask questions in a way that allow them to actually get the help they need. So that's like the foundation After that, we do the mindset work. What are the unconscious blocks that are keeping you from being able to move forward and address your money, both personally but also societally? So those are the first two modules that sets you up for implementation, which is module three. Okay, so you're now surrounded by people who are helping you do it. You now have understood that some of your unconscious money stories that have kept you stuck, you understand how it's impacting your political work.
(42:13):
Now you got to go out and do the fucking thing. So in that module, we actually have, you have the fee conversations with your client. You have full support from us, you have scripts. I don't even like scripts, but I give people scripts so they can practice. You have office hours to come in and play it out, but you're going to do it. You're going to tell your clients, I'm leaving all insurance panels by September 1st. I'm going to raise my fees to 250 by September 1st, and you have us all there to be like, here we go, what happened? Try it this way the next time. And then module four, once you've done that, once you've actually had the fee conversations, then you can actually start addressing premium fee marketing. So here's what you do to actually get folks and work with folks who are willing to pay you 250 per session, but we don't let you do that until you've actually done the work in your practice.
(42:53):
We see so many therapists who are like, I want to learn how to market. Meanwhile, they're saying 30 people in their practice who are paying 'em 25 cents. It's like you're not going to be able to go out and market effectively when you're burnt out and overwhelmed, so let's actually pair down your practice in our program. Maybe you're seeing 30 people, maybe you have 80 people on your caseload. True story. Let's actually raise fees and get your caseload down to 15 or 20 who are paying you 250, you're now making the same amount of money or more and you've just gained 10 or 50 more hours in your week. Let's figure out how to make money with those hours.
Michael Fulwiler (43:21):
I love that one. Therapists have those fee conversations. What percentage of them would you say, go well, and the client agrees to the higher fee versus pushes back or that conversation doesn't go well? Anecdotally, what would you say?
Tiffany McLain (43:37):
I'll even push back on your question a little bit. A conversation going well, and my mind is not a client saying, sure, I'll pay that fee conversation going well, is a therapist saying, my fee is going up to whatever, 250 and the therapist being able to hold their mind, stay present with themselves, continue to think clinically with their client regardless of the client's interaction. Do clients stay and pay the higher fee? I don't know. Actually most, we're actually starting to collect data, which is great. Finally, we're collecting data, but it's not uncommon for therapists in our program to say, I told my client I was raising my fee, and they said, okay. I happens so often. Okay, now not always. Some clients are like, I want to stay using my insurance or I can't pay that fee raise. Fortunately, we had a situation this month, the therapist was talking about how she raised her fee. Her client said, I can't pay it. He left and he came back a month later and said, I'm going to do it right. So if we're doing the work well and really showing up clinically and thoughtfully, you would be surprised at how often your clients have the resources to pay and you just have no idea because you've never actually brought it to the table.
Michael Fulwiler (44:42):
I asked because my expectation is that we probably overestimate the pushback
(44:48):
We get from clients, whether it's my consulting fees or I remember being at the Gottman Institute and there was a big discussion and fight about should we raise the cost of our couples workshops. It was, I think $750 for a weekend for 10 years. The price didn't go up, and we talked and we talked, and finally we raised it, I think, to a thousand dollars, and people were worried, well, if we raise the price, no one's going to come. And then it didn't matter. People still came and it's like, I should have raised the price five years ago. So I think we tend to overestimate the impact of raising our fees or raising our rates.
Tiffany McLain (45:25):
I think that's right. Of course we do, and I'll say sometimes we raise our fees and our clients don't stay, or we have a hard time getting new clients. And for me, I think one of the huge benefits of our program is we're actually at the end of the day helping our therapists develop a growth mindset, so where a therapist on their own in isolation might raise their fee. People leave and they say, okay, the solution is to go back to lower fees. In our program, we say, actually, the solution is to identify what's keeping you from finding clients who are paying your premium fees or what's keeping you from retaining your clients, and let's solve for that. Let's not take away your dream and go back to living stably, scrap hustling life. Let's actually figure out what do you actually need to implement and have in place to actually have the life you want? Why not?
Michael Fulwiler (46:07):
I think that's a huge thing. I don't think we've talked about scarcity mindset, but yeah, this idea that if I raise my fees, I'm going to lose my clients, and then I can't get new clients, and now I'm going to have to go back to my lower fees, when in reality it just shifts the type of clients that you work with because there are people out there who can pay those premium fees. Maybe they're not your existing clients, and that's okay.
Tiffany McLain (46:28):
Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right.
Michael Fulwiler (46:30):
I'm curious, is there a particular challenge that you're working through in Lean In. MAKE BANK. today as a business owner and entrepreneur.
Tiffany McLain (46:39):
Oh yeah. I love this question. Last year, how many years back do we want to go? Probably in 2023 I realized I need to figure out how to hire. It's very hard and I realized all the attachment shit. I was playing out with potential employees. Let me get this person. They seem fun. Let me them. That's not the way, that's not the base of five brand.
Michael Fulwiler (47:01):
I would be friends with them. Yeah,
Tiffany McLain (47:03):
And then they would not be doing their work, but I'm like, it must be my fault. If I can be a better leader then they'll do that by years. Really, I didn't know how to hire a well in 2023, I think end of 2023, I find it higher. I finally figured that out with a lot. I go to analysis twice a week and pay my 3 25 per session. So a lot of personal work and we hired Maya, who's our operations person. They were amazing. I went against all my instincts to hire them. Like everything that I'm like, I should hire these two people who are sending me thank you letters and dancing. Wait, let me try to do something different and hire this person who seems very thoughtful, Maya. That helped me hire our next two people. So we went from kind of having a full-time person before but not going well to three full-time people in about a year.
(47:47):
That was a huge learning curve and during that time, sales dropped. I wasn't focusing on sales, I was focusing on how do we hire, how do we learn, how do we learn to function as a team? We lost probably in 20 24, 20 23 to end of 20, 24 over $120,000 in the business. Just like money that I had saved up just BA down. That was really scary. I'm like, is this business viable? What am I doing? And I knew that what I was working on with the team, it was the only way I was going to be able to get to the next level. I couldn't do it by myself. I'm very transparent about money. We were at the $500,000 mark for a couple of years. I'm like, we can't go past this in the way that I want to, which is with freedom and flexibility and showing up for my kids if I'm the only one who's really invested.
(48:29):
Finally, this year we ended up investing, I think $18,000 to work with a coaching company for six months, like a business company to help us with sales and marketing, messaging, all of that, and we made that 18,000 back in a couple of weeks and now we're making that money, so I feel like, oh, I feel free. I'm have so much more freedom to be having conversations with therapists now, whereas before I was in the weeds so much. Now I'm talking to therapists every week, teaching our students able to be on social media, playing around with what messaging do our people need to hear. It's so moving and so fun and I feel really free podcast to be working in my zone of genius while the team is doing their zones of genius. So I feel like this is going to be an exciting wave. We can ride for a little while until we come to the next challenge.
Michael Fulwiler (49:08):
Your team has been great to work with. I didn't mean to throw anyone under the bus on the podcast scheduling sfu.
Tiffany McLain (49:14):
Somebody did get to thrown under the bus, they'll pay, oh, they're
Michael Fulwiler (49:18):
You. Someone's getting fired.
Tiffany McLain (49:19):
You're a real persecutory on my team, as you can imagine.
Michael Fulwiler (49:22):
Oh, that's awesome. I think that's something a lot of group practice owners will resonate with. I mentioned this on the show, but I've talked to group practice owners about the challenges of expanding from solo to group practice and my assumption would be that it's all about getting clients and you have to do more marketing and that's tough, but it's really about hiring and people and if you hire the wrong person, how to have that tough conversation, how to let someone go. That's the stuff that you don't really think about as a business owner as you're thinking about growing and yeah, you want to scale and make more money, but in order to do that, unless you're building software, then you need people and people. Management is tough, tough.
Tiffany McLain (49:59):
I have been somebody who I live very much outside the box for a lot of reasons we won't get into because how much time do we have? But I will say I have not known if it's possible to build a business in the way I want to where I have emotional freedom, spaciousness, ease. I see business owners who scale quickly or even scale slowly and they're just burnt out, not showing up for their relationships. Terrible parents using their business to avoid, and I'm like, I'm not building a business that way. I'm not going to be working my ass off. I don't want to do it that way. So I've been trying to build it in a way that continues to afford me ease and spaciousness and freedom. I dunno if that's going to work. And also to be able to pay our team members well, I don't actually know.
(50:38):
I know that I could go and pay people a little bit of money, but I'm like, okay, I want our team members to have benefits. I want them to be paid well. I want them to have a work-life balance. That's really good. It's kind of like order of operations. It's probably not the smartest order of operations. A lot of capitalism, you take advantage of people and you burn 'em out and then you move. I'm like, okay, if I don't do it that way, if I don't want to burn myself or my team out, can I still grow a business? I don't know the answer to it yet, but that's the experiment. I cannot sacrifice certain values. I'm very much in integrity. I don't have a lot of moral codes, I don't think, but I'm very in integrity, like I have to build a business in integrity and it costs me. That costs me and ultimately my life is wonderful. My day-to-day life is wonderful, so it's like that costs me money, but man, emotionally, it's really nice.
Michael Fulwiler (51:23):
Love it. Thanks for sharing that. We are getting to the end. Unfortunately. This has been amazing. We'll have to have you back on so much more to talk about. I have a few rapid fire questions to close this out. How much money is enough money for you?
Tiffany McLain (51:37):
For me or for anyone?
Michael Fulwiler (51:38):
For you?
Tiffany McLain (51:40):
Enough money. I have enough money actually right now. I want more, but I can pay my bills and I can live my life.
Michael Fulwiler (51:45):
Who is someone who has influenced your views about money?
Tiffany McLain (51:48):
I'll just say Ramit because he talks about money so much. Ramit sat who I actually went into business because of him.
Michael Fulwiler (51:55):
Love that. What advice would you give to therapists struggling to charge no show or late cancellation fees?
Tiffany McLain (52:01):
There is a wealth of knowledge and insight and transformation in the act of learning how to set boundaries with your clients, you setting them yourself first and then enforcing them with your clients. You're going to come to know things about yourself that have ripple effects across every aspect of your life.
Michael Fulwiler (52:16):
What's one thing therapists need to hear right now?
Tiffany McLain (52:18):
That a fucking economy, the political situation, it's always going to go up and down. I want every therapist to create a practice where life is going to life and you're secure and safe and easeful and can show up fully for yourself and your family regardless of what's happening in the world. That's your responsibility as a therapist. You don't have to do it alone. We're here to help, but that is your responsibility.
Michael Fulwiler (52:38):
Finally, what's one thing you want therapists to take away from this conversation?
Tiffany McLain (52:42):
Oh, I'm going to get all moved. I want to say to therapists, it's not your fault that you're in this position. You were set up. This is something I say in our trainings. You were set up to fail. You were set up to fail. So if you're feeling shame or Oh, I regret, I should have been doing better at this point in my life. You actually are doing amazingly and there's so much more possible for you and you're allowed to have more. That's what I'll say.
Michael Fulwiler (53:08):
Well said. Tiffany, thank you so much. This has been incredible, super valuable. For folks who want to connect with you, learn more about Lean In. MAKE BANK., where can they do so?
Tiffany McLain (53:19):
I'll say, actually because you're listening to this podcast, go check out our podcast, The Money Sessions and you'll learn more about us and how you can be more connected to us that way.
Michael Fulwiler (53:27):
Love it. You also have a free calculator as well, so we'll drop that in the description in the show notes. Tiffany, thank you again.
Tiffany McLain (53:34):
Thank you.
Michael Fulwiler (53:36):
Thanks for listening to this episode of Heard Business School, brought to you by Heard, the financial management platform for therapists. To get the class notes for this week's episode, go to joinheard.com/podcast and don't forget to subscribe on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll see you in the next class.