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Travis Bader, host of The Silvercore Podcast, discusses matters related to hunting, firearms, hiking, outdoor adventure, success, health and more with the people and businesses that comprise the community all from a uniquely Canadian perspective.
Kind: captions
Language: en-GB
Travis Bader: Today's guest has nearly
three decades of experience with the
RCMP, including roles in North Vancouver,
federal units, and university policing.
He has trained throughout North
American firearms, national
security, counter terrorism, and
both public and personal safety.
He has a rich background
in criminal interdiction.
Welcome to the Silvercore
podcast, Ian Simm.
Ian Sim: Good day, sir.
Nice to meet you.
Finally,
Travis Bader: it is good to meet you, man.
We've had a lot of back and forth
through text message and email,
well, mostly text, I guess, say, and
then voice talking back and forth.
Yeah.
It's been a bit now, hasn't it?
Ian Sim: Yeah.
And well, and I was going to try
and meet you earlier, but a month
of COVID kind of gotten the way.
Um, but then I realized we've
got a lot of Friends in common.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
We, we got a lot of mutual
acquaintances and friends, don't we?
Yep.
Yeah, I think, uh, you were saying
you watch your very first podcast
and that was, uh, the one with Seb.
Yeah, Seb Lavoie.
That's right.
Ian Sim: Um, I, we've crossed paths a
number of times in the RCMP over the
years, um, on the range, uh, empty hand
training course, um, some commonality
in, in, um, with some covert stuff.
Yeah.
Um, Yeah.
And then I talked to him, he's
big with the podcasts and yeah, my
really, my first podcast I watched
last night with you and Seb.
Travis Bader: Well, I'm flattered
to be your first podcast.
Um, what's kind of
interesting here is recently.
So I, I traveled up north with my
wife and we went to a, Uh, well,
I guess I can talk about it now.
Usually I leave the names aside, but it's
already been aired, but I went to Rachel
Attila's place and we recorded a podcast.
She's a professional rancher.
She's a professional
trapper, professional guide.
And she had spent about four years
trying to get an authorization to carry
a restricted firearm to protect her
life out in a remote wilderness area.
And of course the firearms
act regulations permits that.
And it says, if you're working in a remote
wilderness area, you're not allowed to
Um, if you meet the certain requirements,
you can go out and you can train.
And it's been massively well received,
lots of comments, lots of people emailing,
lots of people contacting the office.
And one of the things that tends to
come up a lot is, well, that's all well
and good for somebody who's working
out in a remote wilderness area.
Why can't we defend ourselves?
Why can't we?
Stand up for ourselves in a similar
way to how the Americans will stand
up for themselves in the States
against a two legged predator.
Why is it only applicable for
wilderness areas and remote areas?
And I think you have some background
in this and you've got a very proactive
approach to communicating information.
I've looked at some of the stuff
you've done within your policing
career and you, you've You operate
a little bit differently than the
norm, which really intrigued me.
And I can go into that further in a
bit, but I'm going to let you chat.
Oh,
Ian Sim: yeah.
Well,
self preservation is, is
the first law of nature.
Yes.
So, um, what the last million
years, let's say, tens of thousands
of years, um, security of person
is the first law of humanity.
You know, security of person, section
seven of our charter, everyone has the
right to life, liberty, and security of
person, not to be deprived thereof, except
in accordance with fundamental justice,
um, section seven of our charter is, is
the right of all rights, without which
all your other rights are meaningless.
If you're not safe, your
other rights are useless.
Um, and it, and it's,
it's security of person.
Travis Bader: Right.
Ian Sim: These are not group rights,
collective rights, mob rights.
These are individual human rights.
Um, most Canadians can't tell you
what section seven of the charter is.
I just call it the right to be safe,
but it is the right of all rights.
Section seven.
Well, where did, where did
security of person come from?
UN declaration of human rights, 1948.
Security of person, Canadian
bill of rights, 1960, security
of person, Canadian charter of
rights, 1982, security of person.
So security of person is a thing,
been around for a long time.
And
we're filthy rich Western democracy here.
We've had it very good
for a very long time.
Uh, we're still, you know, in around
the world, we're still one of the top
destinations that people want to live in.
And as a result, we have probably
lost sight of, um, the concept of
Democracy, liberty, human rights.
Um, they just really haven't
been that much of a thing.
Travis Bader: Why do you think that is?
Ian Sim: Because we're a
rich Western democracy.
We've had it good.
Um, we, we, we haven't faced, uh, you
know, um, wars and famine and pestilence.
I mean, COVID was a bit weird, but so,
you know, we've done many things, right.
Some things were just
maybe good luck, right.
Uh, and we'll take it, but you know,
I worked almost a decade, uh, at, uh,
UBC, University of British Columbia.
I'll meet kids out there raising
money for Amnesty International,
you know, say, Hey, how's it going?
Um, you know, what do you think
the most important human right
we have is under the charter now?
You know, a lot of, um, international
students, some are American, so they're
not familiar with our charter, but even
the Canadian kids, they're like, um, you
know, and they're out there raising money
for Amnesty International, which is a
race based, rights based organization.
And they can't tell me
what the charter says.
Most people can't.
And, and I understand it.
And I just think that we need
to perhaps put a little bit more
of that in our high schools.
Um, you hear rights all the time, right?
Everyone's got rights.
Everyone's claiming rights.
You know, you, you hear it at
protests, counter protesters, um, but.
The charter is the Supreme law of Canada
and the Supreme court of Canada will
assess our legislation, municipal,
provincial, federal against the charter.
It's not perfect.
Um, you know, uh, there are,
there have been countries where,
you know, um, 1930s Germany.
Um, a lot of what they did was
legal courts, judges, Western
democracy up until that point.
Um, you know, people stack the
Supreme Court in the United States.
People kind of try and stack
the Supreme Court up here.
It's not perfect.
I get it, but you know, our Supreme
Court, And our system in Canada
is pretty good when you compare
it to the rest of the world.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
I mean, it's not going to
stop people from complaining.
There's always going to be
things that can poke holes in.
I get it.
I've been guilty of it myself, but
when we take that a little bit more
of a, uh, overview, take a step
back and look at it, there's a lot.
That is good with the system that we have.
And I think if people are properly
educated as to how this system can work
for them and how perhaps the system
is designed to be, uh, to be used.
I, I, I'm hoping that will at
least in one small piece be where
this podcast can help people.
Ian Sim: So I'm not going to
change the educational system
in BC probably, uh, or Canada.
Um, but when I talk at, uh, I've
talked at university classes before,
I've presented there, I presented at
Douglas college criminology courses.
I presented and taught courses
at the justice Institute.
Um, the topic of rights often comes up.
I recently taught a class at
the Justice Institute on police
leadership for international students.
Okay.
Mostly lawyers from various countries
around the world and inevitably rights
comes up because, you know, they're,
um, most of them, uh, are, you know,
Uh, are, are so thankful to be in Canada
studying, many of them want to stay here.
And that's in large part
because we have rights because
Canada isn't like back home.
So we do a lot of things.
Well, uh, I think history is important,
the good, the bad, and the ugly.
And it's interesting that the,
the international students
sometimes are more interested in
our rights and sometimes no more.
So, and, and, you know, different,
they're coming from different cultures,
different countries, India, Iran, Brazil.
I walked in a class, uh, that, that last
class I taught and some of the students
stood up when I walked in the room.
Hmm.
As a sign of respect.
Yeah, I was stunned.
I like, I kind of looked over
and I'm like, what's going on?
And then I quickly clued in
as to what was happening.
They were a bit older.
Um, many of them were lawyers, um,
but, but very polite, very respectful.
Um, it can get a bit, uh, Testy in with
Canadian kids in Canadian classrooms.
I'm good with it.
Everything's on the table, A to Z, just
let's not yell and scream at each other.
So, and then working at the university
of British Columbia for almost a
decade, I had the opportunity to meet
people from all over the world who
I never would have met otherwise.
And I get stuck right
in, Hey, how's it going?
Where are you from?
Um, some clearly aren't interested in
talking to a uniformed police officer.
Um, many are.
Sure.
I was there during COVID, BLM,
US election, you know, as, as a
white colonial settler cop, as
I was, uh, called once or twice.
Travis Bader: Um.
You've never heard that before, have you?
Right.
Ian Sim: So, you know, I defund the cops.
All cops are bastards down on rec beach.
I mean, rec beaches is.
It's kind of an alien
planet on an alien planet.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
A little microcosm unto itself.
Ian Sim: You know what?
It's got a very, um, colorful clientele.
And I, I, I, I mean, I
wouldn't have it any other way.
Yeah.
I mean, that's part of the reason why I
went to a university of British Columbia.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
Ian Sim: But we need to do a better job.
Um, with, um, our history,
celebrating what we got right,
celebrating what we do right.
Um, and not forgetting,
uh, lessons of the past.
Um, what to do and what not to do.
And I, I just, rights are a thing.
They're not going away.
Travis Bader: Right.
You know, there's some people who would
look at the charter of rights and freedoms
and say, you know, it's fantastic.
We've got these rights enshrined and
there's other people who would look at
that and say, who is this government
to say that this is our rights?
These are God given rights.
These are inalienable rights.
So I've heard people argue
that on both different sides.
Do you have thoughts on that?
Ian Sim: Yeah.
I mean,
everyone wants the rights to go their way.
So is there a hierarchy of rights?
I think so.
Travis Bader: Okay.
Ian Sim: I think I've maybe alluded
to what I think is the right of all
rights, which is the right to be
safe, section seven of the charter,
everyone has the right to life,
liberty, and security of person.
I don't know what order all
your other rights come in.
I'm just pretty sure that section
seven is at the top of the list.
It's numbered number seven,
but again, if you're not safe,
what good are your rights?
Travis Bader: And I'll, I'll read it
because I, I printed it out here, so
I'm somewhat familiar, but it says
everyone, everyone has the right to
life, liberty, and security of the
person and the right not to be deprived
thereof, except in accordance with
the principles of fundamental justice.
So it's not an unfettered right.
They have some constraints
around there, which they call the
principles of fundamental justice.
And I'm sure a lawyer would be
able to opine further on that,
but it seems somewhat nebulous.
I
Ian Sim: mean, was it true, uh, Winston
Churchill that said, you know, democracy
is the worst political system we have
in the world, except for all the others.
So it's imperfect.
Um, Um, you know, I'm, uh, I'm, uh, uh,
perfectly imperfect human being, uh,
somewhat damaged by 25 years in policing.
Right.
I got yelled at a lot on
rec beach during COVID.
I get yelled at occasionally
when I presented classes, um,
and I'm like, okay, you're angry.
I get it.
It's university.
This is nothing new.
What are you angry at?
The past, the present, the future.
Yeah.
Oh, you just want to yell
and that's okay, too.
I'm good.
Right.
Um, and that was mostly
American and Canadian kids.
Um, from what I could tell,
um, our international visitors
and the international students
thought we were rock stars.
We're down there doing
foot patrols on the beach.
Um, they're like, you don't
talk, talk to the cops at home.
They will steal from you.
They will rape you.
They will kill you, all the above.
Um, and even the Irish kids, they're
not, they're not going to steal
their stuff, get raped or killed
by the cops for the most part.
But they're like, yeah, you just,
you don't talk to those guys.
That's a sad commentary coming
from, uh, what we'd think is a, is,
well, what is a Western democracy?
The brain, you guys are amazing.
You're friendly, you're
funny, you're professional.
Um, and you know, before you know
what, it's, it's, it's photo time.
Um, and, and never really give
it much thought until I started
working at UBC and on Rick Beach.
Right?
So I I perhaps we just take
for granted what we have.
Don't give it much thought as to
how we got here, where it came from.
Um, yeah, the rights.
I mean, who gives us,
who gives us our rights?
Does God gives us our rights?
I don't know which God, who's God,
Travis Bader: right?
Who's God are we talking about now?
Um,
Ian Sim: is it, uh, Trudeau Sr.
That gave 'em to us?
And, and brought them over, uh, in 82,
um, is, is it, uh, the current government?
Well, no, it's, it's,
it's none of the above.
Um, your rights are your human
rights, which are by definition,
minority rights are yours by virtue
of being born into the human race.
Travis Bader: What do you
mean by minority rights?
Ian Sim: So
your human rights.
Are a limitation on
the power of the state.
Travis Bader: It
Ian Sim: tells the state
what they can not do.
Travis Bader: Right.
Ian Sim: And many of our rights,
um, have been, um, developed
and explored by minorities.
In our community and by minorities,
I don't mean like criminal law.
Um, a lot of our criminal law, uh,
has, has been developed by people
being charged criminally and, and,
and claiming a charter breach, uh,
search and seizure, for example.
And, um, all your rights around a lawyer.
Travis Bader: Right.
Ian Sim: Um, so a lot of our rights,
uh, are stab, not established, but, but
explored and developed further fine tuned.
Sure.
Okay.
Thank you.
By criminals who, or people were
charged with criminal offenses.
Travis Bader: Right.
Ian Sim: So, and, and they are
minority in, in most societies.
Um, other ones, LGBTQ.
Plus community, um, a minority, but
you know, they are fighting for what
they perceive to be their rights.
Travis Bader: Yes.
Ian Sim: So everyone in Canada can fight
for what they perceive to be their rights.
Now, if it's in the charter, helpful.
It's in the Canadian
bill of rights, helpful.
It's in the UN declaration
of human rights.
Helpful.
Um, it might be in the Bible, helpful if
other Western democracies have similar
rights, um, Supreme court judges in
Canada will look at similar systems.
Travis Bader: Sure.
Ian Sim: Um, including the United
States, Britain, for sure, um,
where our common law comes from,
where American law comes from.
Um, so, but at the end of the
day, the Supreme Court can say,
yes, section seven of the charter
is the Supreme law of the land.
We agree it's the right of all rights
without which, you know, all your
rights, the rights are meaningless.
And this young lady, the guide, the guide,
Um, who got her authorization to carry
for, um, to protect life in wilderness
areas, a government could come down
the road and say, none, you're done.
And, and with the recent handgun
freeze, whatever that means exactly.
Um, so.
A new government could come in, they could
take that away, they could expand on it.
At the end of the day, the Supreme
Court could say, they could say, Travis,
section seven of the charter states
security of person, you have the right
to, uh, an authorization to carry, a
civilian authorization to carry anywhere
in Canada, including urban areas.
And the government of the day could
go Notwithstanding clause, and
it's done, crushed for five years.
Right.
So the system is not perfect.
Rights,
some people think rights are kind
of airy fairy left wing stuff.
Um, they're for everyone.
Um, if you can articulate to a judge
that there's been a charter breach or,
or an egregious breach of your rights
under the charter, um, you may get your
hearing in front of the Supreme court.
Not you personally, I mean, it'll
go to Supreme court, perhaps.
So rights work for everyone, but they
don't work all the time for everything.
Um, I, I talked to some of the,
my friends in Northern Arizona in
and around Gunset Ranch, right?
If you had one right to choose from,
would it be your right to
carry second amendment,
uh, or a woman's right to choose?
Pick one.
You get one.
Um, what's more important to you?
Um, so a lot of people will
claim they have rights.
Um, sometimes we disagree on
what those rights actually mean.
But if you convince a judge
and then the Supreme court
justices, you've got your rights.
And so
let's say armored car guards, let's
say we were going to expand armored
car guards in Canada by 10, 000
guards in the next three years.
Um, it wouldn't make the news and they
carry a handgun openly to protect life.
Right.
It wouldn't make news.
It, even if you phone the news station,
they'd be like, why is that news?
If we, if someone came out, a government,
uh, provincial or federal said,
we're going to expand, um, the right
authorization to carry for civilians.
By 10, 000 people in the next
three years, that would be news.
Travis Bader: That would be everywhere.
What one thing that goes through my
head and actually there's a bunch of
things going through my head, but, uh,
I should probably have preempted all
of this with this isn't legal advice
and we're not lawyers and we don't
speak for anybody other than ourselves.
These are our opinions that we're
going to be going through here.
So that kind of puts a big blanket
over top of the conversation of,
uh, of protection for everybody.
Ian Sim: Yes, obviously we're not lawyers.
Um, but you'll see people in the
Supreme Court of Canada, lawyers on
both sides, arguing completely different
arguments, like polar opposite.
You know, if anyone thinks they can
predict how a Supreme Court case is
going to go, I mean, I don't know.
Best of luck.
Travis Bader: Right.
Um, so.
Friend of mine is a, uh,
a very well accomplished
lawyer, extremely intelligent.
And he says, you've, you've got the
perfect case and you go to Supreme court
and you've got everything a hundred
percent, uh, perfect on your side.
You've got about 70, 30 chance.
Ian Sim: And even if you win
notwithstanding clause, Federal
government can go, yeah, sorry, too bad.
So
it's imperfect.
It's more perfect than many systems
around the world, but it's not perfect.
And, and rights are like, so,
you know, you will get people
on both sides arguing that, um.
Although armoured car guards
carry a handgun all day long
around Canada, no one cares.
No one gives them a second look.
You can't, or I can't carry
Travis Bader: off shift.
I think there's a really interesting
piece of this, which I'm sure we'll talk
about in a little bit, but an armoured
car guard is not a peace officer.
People see the uniform, they see
the gun, and maybe they got an
armored car guard badge and they say,
well, this is a special person and
armored car guard has the exact same
responsibilities as a private citizen
when they're carrying that firearm.
They just happened to be working in some
industry where their primary activity
is a transport of cash or negotiables.
And they have a firearm there not
to protect the cash, no, not to
protect any of the negotiables as
to protect their life or life of
a third party from imminent danger
of death or give us bodily harm.
And that's it.
And as a private citizen, all of the
same rules that apply to an armored
car guard apply to a private citizen.
Ian Sim: So the standard to carry a
handgun today by a private citizen.
In British Columbia is the, the security
legislation provincial, I believe
Travis Bader: for
Ian Sim: armoured car guards.
Travis Bader: That's right.
Ian Sim: That's it.
So again, and, and Canadians or
British Columbians would have nothing
to say if they said we're going to
increase armoured car guards by 5, 000.
Mm hmm.
Um, but again, It's illogical.
A lot of the arguments and, and I get it.
Emotion is a thing.
Uh, anxiety is a thing.
Um, people may believe in what
they're doing or promoting or saying,
uh, good intentions, the whole bit,
but you know, does it stand kind of
the, just kind of the logic test?
Not really.
Uh, in opposing a civilian ATC
and they go, Oh, America, south
of the border, rah, rah, rah, rah.
Well, the vast majority of
Canadians I've met don't
understand Canadian firearms laws.
They certainly don't understand, uh,
firearms laws in other countries or in
48 different states south of the border.
They have an opinion as many people do.
Um, it can be like many
topics, an emotional one.
Um, and again, I understand it.
The, the, the, The mere thought of
violence, um, can be distressing
to people, just the thought,
and they've, and perhaps they've
never experienced violence.
If you've experienced violence Um, as a
victim or on the other side, um, it can be
traumatic, very emotional, very stressful.
Um, so I, I get it.
People get nervous when they
think about their own safety.
It's understandable, but we should, we
shouldn't be using these cute one liners.
Um, and, and, and we should help
people understand the true pros and
the true cons of any legislation,
particularly public safety legislation.
Misleading Canadians.
About public safety legislation,
I have a problem with that.
I've spent my whole career and much
of my life in service to my community,
particularly around community safety.
Travis Bader: I'm sure you've heard
the, uh, the expression when seconds
count, the police are only minutes away.
And as a peace officer protecting
others, you can't be there
all the time for everybody.
And the one thing that I see that
has taken a massive hit over the
years seems to be the individual's
sense of personal agency.
There seems to be an abrogation,
if I'm even using that word
correctly to abrogate control or
responsibility to a third party.
And.
The way that messages from media
or government agencies will
communicate that is no, no, no.
You hang tight.
We'll help you.
No, no, no.
You don't, you don't
take care of yourself.
We've got a crew that's specially trained.
That'll be there to take care of you,
which is all well and good because there's
people out there that need taken care of.
And there's people out there that might
not be the best advocate for themselves,
but to Push that so far to the point
where people feel they don't have that
personal agency, where they can actually
step up and do something positive to
affect their life or their life of those
they love that are around them, I think
is doing people a massive disservice,
not just at the individual level,
but at the societal level everywhere.
Ian Sim: Yeah.
We've.
Again, we've had it so good in Canada
for so long, and we still have it good,
although things are changing quickly.
I'm not going to be there.
I'm not a first responder.
I don't like the term.
I've never liked the term.
I won't be there probably
when you need me.
Initially, if someone is going to
shoot up a school, a street, a coffee
shop, um, and I'm sitting there in
uniform, um, do my daily hydrational
activities, uh, they're going to shoot
me first and then get on with it.
Travis Bader: Hmm.
Ian Sim: Or they're going to sit and
they're going to wait till we leave
and they're going to get on with it.
It might come back another
day if they're short for time.
I don't know, but
we're the second or the third
of the fourth responders.
Um, you and anyone around you,
you're the first responder.
You are your own first responder.
Now I've been seeing that for a long time.
No one gives it much thought.
Um, if you survive the initial incident,
call us and we'll come running.
Like we will move heaven and earth.
To get to a crisis, uh, accident, violent.
We will move heaven and earth
to get there, but we won't be
there in time for everyone.
We can't.
Um, you know, it says, um,
there's, they're saying, you
know, you don't need guns
because, um, we have police
and, and we'll then, I guess you
don't need fire extinguishers
because we have firefighters.
Right.
And it's, I don't say it to be cute.
It's, it's just, it seems to
be pure, simple, clear logic.
Um, we get there after the fact,
and if you've called us, we'll do the best
we can, but we won't be there in time.
You're,
you're on your own for a period
of time, and ideally that's
a very short period of time.
But it might be a bit longer than that.
Travis Bader: The one thing that I see
from my perspective and what's been
communicated to me by, by past students
is this overwhelming fear, fear of getting
in trouble, fear of, uh, what could
happen if they stood up for themselves.
And I, I've always looked
at that as an Odd fear.
I mean, we can stick our head
in the sand and pretend that
nothing's going to happen.
And statistically in the past, we
got it pretty good here in Canada.
Right.
But at least be armed with the information
so that if something went sideways, we
have an idea as to what our constraints
are, how we can act, what we can do to
be able to protect ourselves and protect
our loved ones and do so in a way where
we're not losing our house afterwards.
Ian Sim: So the, um, to protect
life is in the criminal code,
always has been, always will be.
Um, you can use as much force as necessary
to protect, uh, you and those under your
care from death or grievous bodily harm.
So first place to start's
the criminal code.
It, it, it's not gone away.
You can defend yourself and
your family and strangers.
Um.
Travis Bader: That would be the
third party that they talk about.
The
Ian Sim: third party.
Um, so.
Again, it, it, it's a thing.
Travis Bader: Mm-Hmm.
Ian Sim: It's codified.
It's, it's in the law.
Travis Bader: Mm-Hmm.
Ian Sim: It's not going away.
It never has.
Uh, and, and again, remember,
you're on your own for a little bit.
Um, for us to get there,
we have to get the call.
So,
you know, we're what's,
we're, we're, we're only a moment
away from, uh, catastrophe.
Like we we're, we're, we're.
We're.
You know, seconds away from a switch or
a trigger, a knife, a car, um, and for
us to get there, we need to get the call.
So it's murder in progress
and we might not know what's
happening until we get the call.
So Virginia Tech, a massacre, I think
what 31 dead, nine minutes flat.
Sandy Hook, 28 dead, three
to four minutes flat.
We won't be there in time
because we have to get the call.
So there's a number of things
that have to happen and that do
happen before we get that call.
And I kind of call it the death gap.
I haven't given it too much thought.
Well, I've given it a lot of thought,
but just, I call it the death gap because
the incident starts, people are dying
and you can do a lot of damage in
a very short period of time, as
we've seen, uh, over the years.
I mean, I was, I was
studying active shooters.
Before the term active shooter existed.
Travis Bader: Right.
Um,
Ian Sim: I don't know why.
I'm just, my dad worked
for the federal government.
Fire protection.
Industrial safety.
It was always about safety,
safety, safety, safety.
So I just grew up safety.
Safety, safety.
Yep.
Um, young boy interested in guns.
Neat, cool cops.
So it's just a thing I followed, but.
The incident starts,
we don't know about it.
Right.
People are scrambling for their lives.
People are dying.
Um, eventually calls come in,
I don't know, 30 seconds, a
minute, maybe two minutes.
Depends.
Um, frantic calls, right?
Uh, uh, the dispatchers are trying
to find out what's happening,
where you are, what's your
address, what building are you in?
They may or may not know those answers.
Mm hmm.
Um, we're going to, we're going
to start getting a dispatch, you
know, shots fired somewhere, or it
could be another tool that they use.
Um, and, and when we have an idea
of a location, roughly, we're going
to start going, but we got to pull
out, we got to get dispatchers
have to dispatch us the call.
We have to pull over in the road,
uh, throw on our, our hard plates,
uh, get our gear ready quickly.
Then we got to fight our way,
maybe through rush hour traffic
to get to a general location.
Travis Bader: Hmm.
Ian Sim: And if it's, um, if it's a
university or college, huge campus,
a rabbit's warren, um, do students
even know what building they're in?
Do they know what room?
And it can happen anywhere.
So, I mean, again, we'll move
heaven and earth to get there, but
there's a line for us to get there.
How do we, as with traditional police
emergency response, Get there quicker.
And I don't know that we can, partly
because of the gap, partly because of
our resourcing levels, partly because
of the time that it's going to take us
to get there through rush hour traffic.
So is that good enough or is there some
way we can address and reduce that gap,
but uniform policing aren't
going to be the ones to do that.
Travis Bader: It's that education piece.
Ian Sim: It's, it's a scary thought,
Travis Bader: right?
Ian Sim: Right.
Like, I mean, I, I, I,
Um, this is my profession.
I spent my whole life, um, with
community, doing community safety work.
Right.
Um, and then I, I, I presented classes.
I teach a little bit, I've never
stopped reading for 45 years.
Um, I've been trained in, you
know, active shooter, IR, indoor,
outdoor, I'm a firearms instructor.
I was shooting down at, Jeff
Cooper's, uh, Colonel Cooper's
gun sit ranch in the eighties.
Um, I kind of live and breathe this.
Um, like I said, uh, Seb and, and, and
other coworkers, you know, we've got a lot
of different people all working towards.
Community safety or, or what
some might term public safety.
And we all contribute
in, in different ways.
But at the end of the day, when
everything has failed, deterrence
didn't work, detection didn't
work, um, disruption didn't work.
And these
things will fail.
We will never get them all.
Um, what now?
So it's kind of a scary
thought for the public.
They're like, Oh crap.
Um, we are kind of on our own
now, thankfully, the chances of
these things happening, even in
the states are statistically low
and, and some will argue that, well,
we can't have you carrying a handgun.
Uh, I can't even carry my
service pistol off shift.
I'm fully trained with specialty courses.
Travis Bader: You can, they have a,
they have from, no, I'm no lawyer, but
if you get permission from a supervisor
has always been in there, I don't know
what makes, let's say your supervisor,
More important than somebody else's
supervisor to say that you could protect
your life, but somebody else can't.
That has always, uh, struck me as
something that was included to help get
law enforcement support for some of the,
um, some of the bills and some of the laws
that we're trying to be pushed through.
Ian Sim: So, um, there are police
officers that carry off shift.
Travis Bader: Sure.
Ian Sim: Um, Some with
permission, some without.
Travis Bader: The old saying, I'd rather
be judged by 12 and carried by six, right?
Ian Sim: But it's, it's too bad that
the most professional people that
you call to try and save your life,
the lives of your family, your kids,
people around you, um, could get into
trouble, uh, professionally and possibly
legally, uh, for carrying off shift.
Uh, some carry, Um, because they're
on call, um, a lot of, uh, police
officers take their, uh, service
pistols home because they're doing
overtime on nights off, days off.
Um, some put it in the
lock box and carry it home.
Some, um, leave overtime
shifts or go to overtime shifts
wearing their uniform armed.
Um, but generally, um, you know, you'll
be hauled up in front of the boss and,
and potentially phone a, uh, face a cop.
Code of conduct investigation.
If you're caught carrying off
shift now, how are you going to
get caught carrying off shift?
Travis Bader: If you have to use it.
Ian Sim: Okay.
So if, if, if you're a rockstar and you,
and you use it well and you save lives,
I'm quite sure the organization will,
um, will embrace you with open arms.
Travis Bader: Right.
Ian Sim: If you make a
mistake or get it wrong.
Oh yeah.
You're done now.
And again, I should, I should
say, uh, um, I am not speaking.
On behalf of the RCMP, I am here as a
private citizen who's, you know, most of
his life has been in and around public
safety, community safety, personal safety.
They're all different.
So yeah, I'm not speaking on
behalf of the organization.
This is Ian's opinion, um, but based
on 45 plus years of, of, um, academic
schooling, uh, and, Being in the
profession for a quarter of a century.
Travis Bader: You know, my goal with
the podcast that I did with Rachel
was to normalize a process for
something that is, is lawfully allowed.
Uh, back in the day, uh, the national
firearms association, I believe was set
up by Dave Tomlinson, Dave Tomlinson.
He's passed on now, but.
Um, he was a clever fellow and he created
a cheat sheet for getting an authorization
to transport through your ATTs.
And in the ATT form, we would say
things like from what times of the day
will you be transporting a firearm?
And, uh, what locations
will you transport it to?
And.
Uh, what days of the week
would you be transporting?
And people would be like, well,
you know, I only go to the range on
the weekends and they fill it out
and, and the range closes at six.
And so I should be home by seven.
And so that's the time they fill it out.
And what they ended up doing was if their
car broke down or the things went late,
they'd find themselves in contravention
of the law based on this form.
So Dave says, um, 24 hours a day, right?
That's when you're going
to be transporting it.
You want it for the maximum length
of time, every day of the week,
all approved gun clubs and ranges.
And everybody started filling out their
forms in that way to the point where the
firearms program started issuing ATTs
without anyone having to fill that out.
It was just normal.
Everyone knew, yep, here we go.
We do it.
And it, I don't know why that didn't click
on me sooner, but with the authorization
to carry, uh, for wilderness and armored
car guards and people working, uh,
myself personally instructing people.
And then my school Silvercore
here instructing people who've got
a hundred percent success rate.
I thought if we template that.
And everyone who's qualified and working
in these different areas, it makes
it just as easy as those ATTs were
in the past for people to go through.
And I think going one step further, having
conversations like this will normalize
the concept of what the charter of
rights and freedoms section seven says
that we can do in both the individual's
mind, as well as any authorizing body
for let's say the RCMP firearms program.
If they're issuing an ATC for
protection of personal life,
which they have the ability to do.
They have done in the past.
And we've worked on, it was a gun store.
And at the time there was threats
being made to different stores and
organized crime was saying, look, we're
going to come in and do something.
And so people were rightfully.
Uh, concerned.
I think there was one on the island.
Uh, there was a, I think it was a
husband and wife that ended up, uh,
getting shot at one of these gun stores.
I'll have to find the exact details.
One of the listeners will have it there.
People are getting concerned about it.
Uh, firearms program
says, okay, not a problem.
You've met the training, you've
done the training, the same kind
of stuff an armor car would do.
Guard guard would do.
Yes, there is a threat out there and
we've, we've been able to identify it.
And, you know, at ABCD all the way
as it went through, but there is one
caveat in there and it said, if police
protection is not adequate and the
firearms program turned around and said
to these individuals who are applying.
All you have to do is get a letter from
the chief of the police in your area.
And this time it was the Surrey area.
So get the chief of police out in Surrey.
Just write us a letter saying
that police protection in Surrey
is not adequate to protect you.
And.
Consequently, no police chief is going to
sign that no one's going to say we can't
protect you and they weren't issued it.
And I thought it was kind of a cheesy
way for this system to work around
being able to, um, issue people
who are trained, qualified, had a
threat, all the rest, um, by using
policy to, to try and circumvent it.
And my hope is by talking about these
sorts of things, maybe it can normalize.
The thought process of, okay, who are
we to say that somebody else can't
protect their own life, particularly
if we've covered our butt, if we're
issuing this, because they've met
all of these different requirements.
Ian Sim: I don't think, excuse me.
I don't think, uh, you'll see that
any day soon coming from Ottawa.
Travis Bader: No.
Ian Sim: However, um, if a province
wanted to get, I was going to say, get
creative, But, but I'd even get creative.
Yeah.
Okay.
Alberta, Saskatchewan,
Manitoba, uh, trifecta maybe.
Um.
They have options.
They manage, uh, create, amend, uh,
provincial legislation for the security
programs, which I believe are provincial.
Yes.
Like the armored car guards.
So Alberta, Saskatchewan,
Manitoba, for example.
Could get together, um, maybe just to
piss auto off, but, but more importantly,
because again, you know, these cute one
liners are just kind of back and forth.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
Ian Sim: I'm interested in sound,
I'm interested in compassionate.
Common sense, middle of the
road, public policy, that's it.
And I've spent a good portion of my
life, um, trying to advocate both within
my organization, other organizations,
um, the shooting community, um,
for, for sound public safety policy.
So Alberta, Alberta could choose, I
guess, to say we are going to issue
under the securities program, um, ATCs
to not only our armored car guards,
but to, um, qualified civilians.
Travis Bader: And,
Ian Sim: and what do we want our armored
car guards are, uh, and everyone else
who carries guns in our society, because
there's quite a few peace officers.
Peace officer status, um,
what do we require of them?
Well, we want safe, competent,
um, permit holders.
Like it's not rocket science.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
Ian Sim: Um, Alberta could do that.
And there's probably nothing
the federal government can do.
Now, Alberta might go, Hmm, you know,
and initially go, I'm not so sure.
And that's fair.
I mean, we get good policy
by, uh, exploring our options.
Sure.
So
Alberta could do it.
Um, or any, or, you know,
Um, but before we go to civilian
Travis Bader: ATC,
Ian Sim: which, um, if implemented,
I guess, to the same standards of
the armoured car guards, uh, it would
be slightly different because it's
concealed carry as opposed to open carry.
Um, why don't we look at the resources
that we already have in this country,
which are serving peace officers.
Travis Bader: Hmm.
Ian Sim: Why?
So, I, I've, I, I termed something I
came up with years ago, and I'm not
the only one who's thought of this.
Um, I call it the LLDA, the
last line of defense Act.
Hmm.
And that would allow serving and
honorably retired peace officers,
the ability to carry off shift.
And I use the term off
shift, not off duty.
Um, under the R CM P Act, they onis 24 7.
End of story.
I have no problem with it.
I will conduct myself.
Um.
To the appropriate standards.
And, and in some cases, I
think my standards are higher
than the organizations.
So
we're, I've got ex military
experience million years ago, but,
uh, I'm a firearms instructor.
We're trained in active shooter.
Indoor and outdoor response.
Um, I requalify with, um, shotgun,
carbine pistol every year.
Mm hmm.
Uh, I'm a firearms instructor.
Um, I've had some covert training.
Um,
there are current police officers, peace
officers with those skills everywhere.
And there's people who were formerly
on ERT, former air marshals, former
military, They all have those skills.
So I think what we should be looking
at in this, this, um, community or
public safety crisis in our country
is allowing serving peace officers,
individual choice to carry off shift.
But I've heard, I've
heard from other cops.
I don't trust my, some of my
coworkers to carry off shift.
Okay.
Well, have you brought your concerns
up to the supervisor that you don't
trust them when they're working?
No, of course not.
Right.
Um, and you know, so we don't have
anything to address what I call
that death gap in a violent crisis.
Like we've, we've changed a lot of laws
in our country because of, um, mass
casualty events, some cost a billion
dollars, some which might cost a couple
more billion on one incident alone.
Or two incidents or three.
So clearly, um, there's an interest
to try and reduce mass casualty events.
Sure.
Right.
And it's bad enough with one person,
let alone mass casualty events.
We're already trained.
We work in our communities.
We know who's who in our communities.
We know what to look
for in our communities.
We get intelligence
bulletins all the time.
Um, and we've got all those
specialists who go to work.
Uh, two days, two nights, four
off in our communities, it would
cost taxpayers, nothing, nothing.
And here's the thing is you'll get
members, police officers saying,
Oh, I don't trust my coworker.
Okay.
Well, you know, they carry
every day at work anyways.
What's the problem.
Um, and then they go, well, what
about a blue on blue, you know, like.
You know, an officer has a gun at
a scene and they're on days off.
Our plainclothes police officers
go for coffee every morning.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
You don't have problems there.
Ian Sim: They go for lunch every day.
They go for afternoon coffee.
Most of them don't wear their
vests, their soft body armor.
Most of them take a, don't take
a radio with them, they just go.
No problems.
A number of police officers carry
their guns to and from home.
Um, on their hip, either in uniform,
some will just take their gun in,
in a plain clothes holster and go
home to, because they're on call,
they work special units, uh, and
some will lock it up in the lockbox.
Really no problems, right?
So this is a worst case scenario.
Um, a violent crisis, um, which the
governments have spent millions, if
not over a billion on having the LLDA,
as I call it, off shift carry, um,
cost taxpayers absolutely nothing.
And it's the exact same people
you're calling in an emergency
to come and save your life.
Travis Bader: I think
it makes a lot of sense.
I mean, it also, it's kind of like
the Switzerland approach where
everyone gets mandatory conscription,
mandatory training, and then
they're sent home with a firearm.
And I think in Switzerland, they lock them
up, but if they need them, there they are.
They're ready because they realize that
having properly trained individuals out
there who can be mobilized at a moment's
notice is way better than trying to
centralize all of this and, and react.
And it's also got the
other effect on things too.
Um, who, who is this off duty officer?
I don't know.
I'm in a crowd.
I'm in a public place.
I'm at a political event, like what
recently happened here in the States and.
With, with Trump, uh, who's the
individual who's caring and who
isn't like there is that saying an
armed society is a polite society.
And I've had people from, uh, the UN
say, no, you have no idea what we've
seen in different third world countries.
And, and, uh, definitely an armed society
is not a, it's not a polite society.
But the idea that maybe, maybe
Mike Tyson's approach, right?
Where he talks about everyone's
gotten way too comfortable,
uh, mouthing off at others.
They haven't got smacked in the face.
If you are somebody who's up to no
good, but there is a threat of getting
smacked in the face, well, maybe
you'll hold your mouth a little bit.
Maybe you'll decide not to do
something, or maybe you'll, you'll hold,
Ian Sim: Well, the deterrence
effect, um, there's also, you
know, in the big picture, mutually
assured destruction, Matt.
Um,
we have, so people who object to, um,
civilian ATC or what they call CCW in
the States, concealed carry weapon,
um, again, Canadians don't know what,
Really our Canadian firearms laws are.
Travis Bader: Right.
Ian Sim: Very few of them don't know what,
um, the different concealed carry laws are
in various states, south of the border.
They don't know what they are
in Brazil, Czech Republic.
Like they don't know.
They just don't know.
I've heard bad things about the States.
I see the stuff on the TV.
It's no good.
You're getting a skewed view from,
from that, because, you know,
we all know in journalism, if it
bleeds, it leads, it's going to hit.
I mean, I've seen, uh, outrage.
There
was a politician a couple of
years ago that said, you know,
um, with all the sad face and
everything, 15 to take down a deer.
Well, most Canadians would just nod
their head and go, yeah, true story.
Well, they were prohibited.
You were never allowed
to hunt deer with AR 15.
So I would suggest they misled
the Canadian public, right?
Yes.
And I saw a CBC, um, documentary, a
short one on, uh, military style rifles.
And they finished the segment
with a gentleman at range
putting a fully loaded 30.
Round magazine into the rifle,
cocking it and firing the whole
30 round magazine on full auto.
Okay, well, we've had five round
restrictions for magazines for
centerfire rifles for years.
Mm hmm.
And fully automatic weapons were, I
think, banned in Canada in 74, maybe.
Everyone who had machine guns
in 74, full automatic weapons,
were allowed to keep them.
Their grandfather.
Travis Bader: Right.
How many full auto
shootings do you hear about?
I've never heard of one ever.
Right.
Yeah.
They're still in the safes of
all these people who've had them.
Ian Sim: So again, we're
talking a worst case scenario.
People are, I get people are
anxious about the concept of, um,
peace officers carrying off shift.
Or even civilians, but what we
need to look at and, and we should
is, um, you know, do you know
anything about CCW concealed carry
programs in the United States?
Travis Bader: I've done
some training down there.
Yes.
Ian Sim: Right.
So most, most Canadians don't have a clue.
Most police officers, peace
officers don't have a clue,
Travis Bader: right?
I think it was Utah have got a CCW permit
for them because they had reciprocity
with other States and, Um, but, but
there's training, there's training that
people have to get in order to get these.
And the biggest part about that
training is don't use your gun, right?
Essentially don't be pulling that gun out
unless your life or life of third party
is in danger and you can qualify that.
Ian Sim: And they have different, so
different states have different rules.
Travis Bader: Yes.
Ian Sim: Uh, some have
very little training.
Constitutional carry states.
Right.
It's in the constitution.
Here's your gun.
You can carry.
Not a fan.
I'm not a fan of open carry.
I carried openly in Arizona as a
young lad, creepy feeling, really
weird for about 30 minutes, and
then you just got on with your day.
Right.
Um, but really weird to start with.
I'm not a fan of open carry.
Um, I am a fan of compassionate, common
sense, middle of the road, public policy.
Um, we already have a Canadians
Fire and Safety course.
We have pretty good legislation around
wilderness carry to protect life.
Sure.
Uh, most police services and, and other
services that, that carry guns, um, have
good provincial and federal standards.
Having, allowing peace officers currently
serving the choice to carry off shift,
uh, enhances, um, no, it's not perfect.
Okay.
There, there's nothing perfect.
We have cars, untold carnage with cars,
untold carnage with cigarettes, untold
carnage with fast food, like, but what
we're talking about, how to address a
worst case scenario, murder in progress,
a potential mass casualty event.
And I'm telling you right now,
we can't respond any faster than.
It takes to go through all those
steps and that gap, by the time
dispatch gets the call, dispatches it
properly, accurately, um, we gear up.
Roadside, and again, we will
move heaven and earth to get
there as quickly as we can.
A whole bunch of people are dead and
we've seen it all around the world.
This isn't just an American thing.
It's not just a North American thing.
So I think the LLDA, as I
call it, um, is the answer.
I know some people, um, will
be uncomfortable with it.
We should try and, um, um, alleviate
their fears by just giving them the facts.
We don't have to make anything up.
We don't have to sugar coat anything.
There's enough people out there
that, that are, you know, don't
suffer from anxiety or, or super
anti gun or any number of things,
or just people with good intentions.
Sure.
Um, Ottawa is never going to go for it.
We know that.
Province of Alberta.
For example, could say, we
want our peace officers in the
province of Alberta to have the
individual choice carry off shift.
Maybe there's a one day course
for plain clothes, peace officers.
There isn't now,
you know, I see people in plain
clothes, uh, what, what the public
might call undercover just means
plain clothes, out of uniform,
undercovers a separate type of uniform.
Specialized job description, but,
and they're carrying, uh, holsters
that, that are, are clearly like,
you're carrying a gun, dude.
Like, hello.
Travis Bader: Well, you're looking, most
people aren't that observant, but yes.
Ian Sim: So, and yeah, I
mean, I, so I'm, I'm, um,
covert operations or low viz
operations, um, usually your biggest,
uh, first safety, um, mechanism layer.
Is the fact you're covert, that they
can't see you're carrying a gun.
And I've seen people on surveillance
and I'm like, Ooh, we need to do
something with, uh, your gun belt,
your holster, uh, your clothing.
Um, we can do a much better job
because some of the people that we're
following, uh, during the, I was
going to say current gang war, uh,
but it's been going on for decades.
If they think you're carrying a
gun, they And not all of us are
nice, clean cut, clean shaven,
like you look like a gangster.
Travis Bader: Right.
Ian Sim: I would be afraid of
you if you were walking, you
know, behind me on the street.
So, um, you know, we need, we can
carry, um, we can do a much better job.
Internally, with our day to day
operations, it's a no brainer for
Alberta, or any province, to address,
and it's not just current public safety,
community safety issues in the last,
let's say decade, um, decade or so.
Thank you.
The LLDA, last line of defense act is,
is really, I think the best solution
it's, it's both counter terrorism
legislation, but at the end of the day,
it's just public safety legislation
and there's nothing that can touch it.
Um, people may oppose it, uh,
for any number of reasons, which
I've discussed, including some
police officers or peace officers.
Travis Bader: Sure.
Ian Sim: But do you have anything
better to address that gap?
And in 61 years on this
planet, I haven't heard it.
I haven't heard a better suggestion.
It's not perfect.
Um, human conflict isn't perfect.
Travis Bader: No.
Ian Sim: Um, a violent crisis
or any crisis isn't perfect.
You do the best you can.
I think this is the best we could do.
Alberta is going to say we
want our peace officers.
To have the individual
choice to carry off shift.
The RCMP would likely
say, not in your life.
I don't know.
Maybe Alberta says, well, we'll,
we'll take that into consideration
when we renew your contract.
Travis Bader: Right.
Ian Sim: But they could say to
Edmonton, Calgary, Lethbridge, whatever.
This is what we want.
And I think they would go with it.
Um, they could try and just,
they should discuss it.
They should bring up any concerns
they have, questions they have.
But at the end of the day, we're
all caring on duty anyways.
And obviously Albert has got some
leverage in terms of budgeting, um,
any number of things, but we can't
address what I call the death gap today.
And I can't see, I mean, what are we going
to double police officers in the street?
We can't even get enough police
officers to get us to where we
were when I started 25 years ago.
And things are getting worse.
Populations growing problems
are like things evolve sometimes
better, sometimes worse.
So we've got a community safety.
Problem in this country, I'm focusing
narrowly on mass casualty events, but, um,
you know, the odds of people say, well,
what are the chances of, of you needing
your, your service pistol off shift?
What are the chances?
What are the odds?
Right.
It's not about the odds.
It's the stakes.
It's life or death.
It couldn't be more important.
It couldn't be a worst case scenario.
So it's not the odds of it happening.
It's the stakes.
Travis Bader: Yeah, I have people
ask me, what are the odds of
me getting in a car accident?
Well, I spent a long time
since I've been in one.
I'd have to say the odds are pretty low.
So why do I wear a seatbelt?
Because the stakes of not wearing
it and getting into a car accident
are going to be way worse.
So I, I like that last line
of defense act suggestion.
I like it because you're already starting
with people who are trained and it
creates a palatable path forward for
any government to say, well, it's okay
because they've been trained before.
We trusted them before.
There's no reason not to trust them now.
Oh, and look at this special
course that we've now put them on.
And so we've, we've
done our due diligence.
We've covered her butt, but,
uh, you know, These, this would
be for retired peace officers.
So it could be for.
Ian Sim: Yeah.
So I would include in the legislation, um,
retire, honorably retired peace officers
who have retired within the last, um,
I don't know, maybe, maybe it would
have to start from today, right?
If you're honorably retired, you're good.
Maybe if you've been out for three
to five years, you're still good,
but you're gonna have to re qualify.
We will carry our service pistols,
um, that we carry every day.
Now, uh, if, if your department
doesn't allow you to carry.
Right.
Let's say Alberta does it.
And there's, there's some, uh,
departments or, or, or police
services that say no way.
Can Alberta say, well, okay, you can't
carry your department's equipment.
We get it.
It's their equipment, but we're
going to allow you to carry
off shift with your equipment.
You will still have to pass
your department's AFQ, annual
firearms qualification.
Uh, at your own cost on days off,
but you do your department's course
of fire with your own handgun,
you can carry too.
So your department says, no,
it's their, it's our equipment.
I get it.
And it's, it's makes sense if, I
mean, they own it and you know,
we're very risk averse these days,
so that's part of the problem.
Um,
maybe there's.
Uh, a way to come around
that, get around that.
Um, you're honorably retired.
Um, you're going to have to pay
for your own and you're going to
have to qualify on the provincial
standard, which is armored car guards.
Travis Bader: I think that bears
some discussion too, because there's
going to be people who are listening
to this Who would say, well, why is
one person's life, uh, valued higher?
Why is a peace officer able to do it
and not me or whatever it might be.
And I think the reality is one
person's life isn't, we're not saying
one person's life is valued higher.
From my perspective, this is a path
forward that's easily palatable
for a political party to be able to
say, okay, we can get behind this.
There's going to be those who are
out there who say, I'd rather be
judged by 12 and carried by six.
And if I believe that my life is
in danger, then I'm going to take,
whether that's a firearm or not,
I'm going to take steps to be able
to protect myself and my family.
And for these people, not that I'm
advocating one way or the other, I'm
But it would be probably important
for them to understand what those
rights are for a private citizen.
And they're the exact same as what
an armored car guard would do.
And for an armored car guard, they're
trained on some tactical communication.
I mean, it's a week long course,
really, uh, some places shorter,
it's really short things.
So empty hand defense, they're trained
on some scenario training, some legal
studies, some firearms work, and their use
of force model is different from what you
would see for a law enforcement officer
and law enforcement officer training.
Does not have a big old disengage
all around it because that's their
job to actively go there and engage.
If there's a less violent means available,
the private citizen has to take it.
If there's a less violent means available
that they can save their life or life of
a third party and a reasonable and prudent
individual, what is, what do they call it?
The reasonable man doctrine
or something like this.
Um, somebody with the same life
experience and the same situation
or same or similar situation would
reasonably come to the same conclusion.
If there is a less violent means
available, you have to take it.
But if there is no less
violent means available.
You are justified in using as much force
as necessary in order to stop the threat.
And that doesn't mean if the
person pulls a knife, you pull
a knife, the person pulls a gun,
you pull a gun to stop the threat.
You're not matching the threat,
you're going one step above
so that you can stop it.
It's not a battle of who's got the better
cardio and who's got the better fitness.
And.
Then I guess there's probably some
discussion about the before, the during,
and the after, which would be important
for people to know about, but I'll
just kind of get the conversation,
maybe rolling on that one a little bit.
Do you have thoughts on that?
The
Ian Sim: bottom book right there
is the before, during, and after.
I, so it's, it's, it's an, um, it,
it's written, um, in the United
States for, uh, primarily civilians
with concealed carry permits.
It's Masada, you needs no introduction
to anyone who's, um, familiar with,
uh, defensive firearms use in,
in, he's been around for decades.
Um,
I, excuse me, I feel that book,
um, is mandatory reading for anyone
who, Hasn't a serious interest in
anything related to self defense.
That book is not about
tactics and techniques.
There's lots of other shooting
schools and books that will do that.
That is the before, during and after.
And I think anyone who carries, uh,
um, uh, firearm professionally in
this country should own that book.
Travis Bader: It's called Deadly Force.
Uh, understanding your
rights to self defense.
Ian Sim: And again, uh, self
defense is self defense.
Um, human combat is human combat.
Um, it's, and, and our laws are very
similar to many in the States, but again,
it, it's highly relevant to Canada.
So if you're interested in self
defense, that's one of the best books.
And I I've, I've read nonstop
since I was, you know, 12.
Um, anyone who cares a
firearm professionally in this
country should have that book.
I think crown counsel and prosecutors
should have that book, defense
counsel should have it, homicide
investigators should have it, use
of force instructors should have
it, police union should have it, the
IIO, SIU, uh, units and organizations
that investigate police use of force.
They should have it.
It's the best book that I found, whether
you're allowed to carry a gun or not.
And for all those other groups,
I just talked to a crown council
for Alberta and BC recently,
dealing with the firearms crowns.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
Ian Sim: Um.
Travis Bader: Is that Todd?
Ian Sim: Uh, no, it was, it
was, um, a woman from BC and
another gentleman from Alberta.
Yeah.
Um, and they were very interested
and, and the other book, of course,
um, They're interested as well.
Uh, so I will be sending one copy of
this book, uh, published by Harvard
university, uh, to both of them and,
uh, Deadly Force is available on Amazon.
Travis Bader: So the other one
you have is To Keep and Bear
Arms by Joyce Lee Malcolm.
Ian Sim: Yeah.
And published by Harvard university.
She's a history professor and she's
just written on English common law
around firearms from the English
bill of rights in 1689, I think,
uh, up until the early 1900s.
So, um, I think anyone who owns a
firearm Should own to keep and bear arms.
I think every gun store in the
country should have to keep and
bear arms It should be in all
24 law schools in the country.
I know it's at UBC at the
law school there already You
Travis Bader: put it there.
Ian Sim: I did not.
No.
I was going to, um, because I'm
actually working on donating these
books at my own costs to, you know,
Crown Council, um, Parliamentary
Library in Ottawa, 24 Law School.
So that saved me a couple of bucks.
Um.
Not bad.
The, uh, we have it already.
Travis Bader: Okay.
Ian Sim: So, and, and that's English
common law, which is the foundation of our
legal system, the American legal system.
The Americans got the second
amendment from the British.
Okay.
Now the British have lost all
their firearms rights for the
most part, in kind of weird ways.
Yeah.
Um.
They can have suppressors.
We can't have
Travis Bader: suppressors.
Ian Sim: Well, I mean, the gun hating
British and they're not gun hating, but,
but you know, something, the gun hating
British, um, they were walking around
with MP5s in Heathrow airport for decades.
I know.
Because of, uh, in the seventies,
the eighties, terrorism
campaigns, IRA, the whole bit.
Um, you've got these old
dudes running around the
countryside and their tweed caps.
Um, my dad was from Scotland.
I love tweed.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
Ian Sim: Um.
Um, with their, you know, their hunting
rifles with suppressors on them, what
the public might call a silencer because,
um, you know, the density population
in Britain, um, guns make noises.
They're not that loud, but they're
concerned about disturbing, um, the,
the neighborhood, the community.
And we've had ranges close in
Canada on bylaws for noise.
Right.
They've closed the ranges
down because of that.
Well, the answer is suppressors.
Suppressors were banned,
I think in the seventies,
Travis Bader: silencers
Ian Sim: because of American movies.
Travis Bader: Right.
Ian Sim: So people kind of, their
heads exploded and, and, and got
all worried about, oh my God,
suppressors, we have to ban them.
Like the martial arts movies in
the seventies, throwing stars,
nunchucks, um, butterfly knives.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
None of these are really super effective
tools in most people's hands, but no,
better prohibit them because we saw Bruce
Lee and look at the damage he can do.
Ian Sim: Right.
So again, sound policy, I
don't know that sound policy.
Um, I, I mean, I, I like some
of our firearms laws here.
I like some of the firearms
laws in the United States.
I wish the United States, some
States had more of our firearms laws.
Travis Bader: Hmm.
Ian Sim: But I wish we had some of theirs.
Czech Republic does a good job.
Like, so I'm just
interested in what works.
I I'm, I'm that kind of that sober
second thought that calm, um,
assessment, uh, I'm not going
to get all wound up either way.
Uh, I'm, I'm not going to get too swayed
by the left, the right, or anything else.
Um, public safety, um, isn't something to
be messed with, shouldn't be misleading
people, you shouldn't be lying to them.
There's ways of addressing public
safety in Canada, particularly
for mass casualty events.
Um, again, like the LLDA that is
going to cost taxpayers nothing.
Provinces could implement it.
Um, and you know, I don't know,
we've got nothing else in its place.
So why would you, you know,
look for reasons to oppose this?
When you have nothing concrete,
you have no viable option
in its place.
So it's like the kid, it's like the,
the, the, the students I made at
university or down on rec beach when
I used to work there, I've since
moved on, but you know, I get it.
You're mad, you're yelling.
Do you have any suggestions
for me as a police officer?
Do you know any country
that's doing a better job?
Do you know any police officer or
police services doing a better job?
What we're looking for at the
end of the day is to improve
what we do for Canadians.
And ideally, uh, without spending tons
of money, it's going to cost money.
I get it.
Travis Bader: But the
Ian Sim: LLDA cost taxpayers, nothing.
And there's nothing that anyone has to
address that death gap, as I call it.
Travis Bader: I think we should probably
let the listeners who aren't aware of
what RecBeach is, what RecBeach is.
So if people haven't been there, I'll
let you explain what RecBeach is, unless
you wanted me to take the lead on that.
So
Ian Sim: RecBeach.
Beach is, uh, maybe the oldest
clothing optional beach in the country.
Travis Bader: And
Ian Sim: I believe this year or last
year, it won best nude beach in the world.
So, you know, there's a couple
of people down on Rett Beach.
It's at Pacific Spirit Park out by
UBC, University of British Columbia.
Um, it's down 500 steps.
To the beach, it's a beautiful
beach location is spectacular.
Um, but it's always been
kind of hippie beach.
I mean, there's people down there that
were probably at Haight Ashbury in 69.
Right.
Like for real.
Right.
Um, not many, but.
So, um, it, it attracts a,
um, colourful clientele.
Uh, there's, there's a bit of a myth, an
urban myth, I would suggest that it's sex
drugs and rock and roll and anything goes.
That's not the case,
but it's a unique place.
We used to be quite confrontational
with law enforcement, um, decade
and a half, a bit more ago.
Um, they didn't like us.
Apparently we didn't like them.
Uh, that's been turned around nicely.
Um, the beach and, and policing, uh, and
metro parks that runs the park itself.
Um, you know, policing has asked them,
police yourselves or we'll do it for you.
Um, and it's worked far better,
uh, the confrontations, um, the
animosity, like it's, it's really is.
It's not nearly as wild as it used to be.
Um, a lot, a lot of international
visitors go there not knowing
it's clothing optional.
A lot of students from the UBC,
uh, go there and they're like, Oh,
Okay, nude beach, we're from Europe.
What's the big deal.
Right.
Travis Bader: Right, right, right.
Um,
Ian Sim: so yeah, it's, it's, uh,
and you know, it's, it's a different
place, but it's, it's, it's not as
crazy and wild as it used to be.
There's more, um, you know,
more single females say I'm
comfortable coming here now.
Young families, we wouldn't
come here in the past.
Um, It's becoming a little bit mainstream,
much to the displeasure of some of the.
Travis Bader: The
Ian Sim: lifers.
Hippies.
Yeah.
Or the nudists.
I mean, they're, they're
naturalists, right?
They're, they're natureists rather.
Natureists,
Travis Bader: there you go.
There you
Ian Sim: go.
They call people who wear their, their
clothes and their bathing suits on
the beach, they call them textiles.
Um, about, I don't know,
30 percent are unclothed.
Travis Bader: Do they do
that in a derogatory way?
The textiles?
Yeah, they kind of, textiles, right?
So it's.
Spectators, people coming
down looking for a show.
Hey,
Ian Sim: I did foot patrols
on rec beach last weekend.
Um, I, I, you know, I, I was running the
beach there for, for quite a few years.
Um, I maintained a good, respectful
working relationship on the beach.
That beach that I call an
alien planet on an alien planet
during COVID black lives matter.
Um, you know, as, as, like I
said, as someone called me, uh,
an old white colonial settler cop.
So, um, if we can maintain that
type of relationship there during
those recent times, we can do
it anywhere in the country.
We just got to get out of our cars, put
the right people in the right places.
On the street, on foot, or on bikes.
And we can kind of get back to
basics, which I think is what
community safety and public
safety in this country needs.
I just think the country needs it.
Travis Bader: I, yeah, I think an
understanding of what those basics are
and where this podcast can hopefully go.
Like when we understand what our charter
rights are, what a, what is acceptable in
the courts, because the courts, the laws
don't tell you what you can do really,
they tell you kind of what you can't do.
And then the courts will come
in and they'll say, okay,
you were right or wrong.
And in, in how you applied that, um,
for individuals who are looking to,
um, Or put into a situation where
they might have to use deadly force.
I would highly suggest a look
at the armor car guard model.
Um, you're right.
Uh, my understanding is the same as yours.
I shouldn't say you're right.
My understanding is the same as yours in
so far as we have a federal model for,
um, training for the armor car guards, but
it's administered provincially, just like
ATT's geographical extent is administered
Provincially, uh, authorization
to carry is the same sort of way.
You can have these
certifications transferred
from one province to the other.
You can have them if, if firearms officers
on BC and Alberta say, Oh, you're, you're
going to be in between these two places.
Not a problem.
I've done work with other businesses.
There's a fellow on the island.
I'm trying to remember the name.
Um, the name of his
business, but he was robbed.
He had a jewelry store and, um,
ended up, uh, using deadly force.
He had a gun, he was a sports shooter
and he had a gun that he, I mean, he's
got a jewelry store or what better, what
safer place to store his firearm as well.
Everything was legally kept.
And anyways, that went before the courts.
He came back and, Ended up getting himself
certified to be able to carry based on the
fact that there is a threat on the store.
But I think they worked at not so much
in, uh, the protection of life area.
It was more in the cash
or negotiables area.
If your primary activity is, I think they
looked more sort of the armored car route.
I know in BC here, we've had other,
uh, jewelry stores that have,
um, started to open up under the
security programs division of BC.
Option for an armed presence, whether
that be jewelry store owners, uh, or
having armed security at their locations.
So there are conversations that
have been started over the years.
Um, individuals looking at this would know
that they'd have to look at through the
firearms act regulations and the criminal
code, they have to have an idea of what,
um, Is justifiable in the, the big three
that they, uh, Canada kind of stole.
I think it was Masada Yube was
the one preaching it as well was
weapon intent delivery system.
Was that, was that a Yube thing?
So
Ian Sim: I, I'm familiar with
Masada Yube for decades, I've,
I've, I never trained with him.
Right.
Um, and I've read one or
two of his other books.
Travis Bader: Hmm.
Ian Sim: But it was decades ago.
Travis Bader: Okay.
Ian Sim: I've read this one,
uh, I think three times now.
In the last two years, um,
laws evolve Hmm.
As do societies for better, for worse.
Uh, self-defense laws is
evolving in Canada, um, slowly.
Travis Bader: Hmm.
Ian Sim: Which is a good thing.
We don't live in a war zone.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
Ian Sim: Um, the beauty of that
book is, uh, deadly force is
that the Americans have a far.
Larger body of, um, knowledge and
experience, um, with self defense law
and our laws are very much the same.
Um, laws, I don't think
laws prevent crime.
I think, I think laws
are used deal with crime.
Sure.
Because the vast majority
of people are good people.
Um, good people outnumber
bad people by far.
Hmm.
Hmm.
In, in everywhere in the
world, um, and always will.
Travis Bader: And that's an awesome
thing to hear from somebody who's
spent the last 25 years in policing
and sees the worst in society at times.
That's, that's a refreshing thing to hear.
Ian Sim: You know, I'm
the eternal optimist.
Uh, it's getting a little bit harder,
um, the way the world is going.
Um, I still like people.
I wouldn't have lasted one season on
a wrecked beach had I not liked people
and had half a clue how to talk to them,
um, or probably, you know, at a, what
someone call a left coast university,
um, As an old white colonial settler cop.
Like, I mean, what else
have I got against me?
Um,
are, are the discussion is changing
around public safety in, in this country.
Uh, the world seems to
be slipping everywhere.
Travis Bader: You
Ian Sim: know, Europe kind of used
to be the gold standard, not anymore.
Travis Bader: And,
Ian Sim: and what we talk about,
what we call public safety, which
is my mandate, public safety is
community safety is comprised of two.
Essential pillars,
you need both of them to have
effective, enduring community safety.
One of those pillars is one we're
familiar with called public safety.
That's the core mandate of
governments at all levels,
municipal, provincial, and federal.
The other one, personal safety,
which is everyone's right.
And if you choose your responsibility,
um, I had a woman talk to me recently.
She goes, you know, a
woman's right to choose.
Is how, when, and if to defend her
life and the lives of her children.
That's a woman's right to choose because
if I'm not safe, I don't get to make
any decisions on reproductive rights,
my hijab, my necklace, my pin, who I
love, like, and she's of course, right.
Um, and you know, I mean, so
community safety relies on public
safety and personal safety.
You can ignore your own personal
safety as many people do.
That's fine.
I mean, the first, the first rule of
personal safety is usually in, you know,
I'll talk about in university or college
or even high school, put your phone away
Travis Bader: and
Ian Sim: you've lost half
the class or more, right.
They're young, they're
going to live forever.
They're bulletproof.
Nothing bad's ever going to happen.
I get it.
Right.
But you know, owning a firearm,
uh, doesn't make you safe.
In and of itself, any more than owning
a guitar, it makes you a musician.
Travis Bader: Right.
Ian Sim: Um.
Good point.
So, you know, there's the before,
the during, the after, that's
the beauty of, of Masada Yub's
book, Deadly Force, uh, Amazon.
Um, the other book, Harvard University
Press, a little bit harder to get.
You're already armed.
Like people say, why did you become.
Why do you want to become a cop?
I said, well, I need a
job where there's no math.
So I went down the list of jobs
that don't require any math.
I went down, went down.
I'm like, cop, no math plus gun,
which is kind of mathematical,
but I could figure it out.
And I'm like.
I'm going to be one of those.
Um, because they'll ask me in
classes, because there's, there's
people in high school, university,
college, why do you become a cop?
Because there's a good percentage
there that are interested in a law
enforcement career, some are lawyers
and the whole bit, but I'm like,
well, I wanted to live my life armed
and they don't know what that means.
Travis Bader: I've never heard
somebody say that before.
It's always, I want to help others.
I like dealing with people, which
are all parts of it, I'm sure.
So, well,
Ian Sim: so again, I went, I don't know.
Um, my dad worked for the federal
government safety, safety, safety.
I grew up watching war
movies on Saturdays as a kid.
Travis Bader: Sure.
Ian Sim: Um, cop shows as a
kid, firearms are kind of neat.
Yeah.
Um, my dad taught me to, Shoot a
pellet gun at a fair in his hometown
in Scotland, when I was like 12.
Um, dad knows how to shoot.
Where'd you learn to shoot?
Oh, it was in the army.
My dad was in the army.
How cool is that?
Right.
It was in the British
army, you know, 46, 47.
But, um,
you know, there's a lot of thought to go
into, um, personal safety, but what, to
get back to community safety, if you don't
have one without the other, if you don't
have personal safety and public safety.
You don't have effective
enduring community safety.
We've never had personal
safety in this country.
It's never talked about.
It's in the criminal code.
It always has been.
It's in the charter, bill of rights, 1960
UN declaration of human rights, 1948.
It's always been around, but we
don't talk about it in Canada.
And probably for, uh, uh, you know,
um, a positive reason is that, you
know, we live in a very, Or have lived
in a very, again, um, stable country.
Travis Bader: So you think that's the
reason why you think it's because we
haven't really had to talk about it
because it's, things have been stable.
Partly,
Ian Sim: partly the other, the other
reason is, is, and you can really see it
now there, there's an ideology out there
that, um, you know, and maybe they're
just using the United States as an excuse,
you can pick many countries or societies
that have terrible levels of violence.
We just pick the States because I guess
we get their news, we get their TV.
And really most Canadians don't know
about firearms laws and crime in
other countries, but they watch TV.
They kind of catch, um, the bad news
stories from South of the border.
So that makes sense.
But how good is government
at doing anything?
You know, they're, they're okay,
but, but, you know, you, you don't
usually look at government and
go, they're, they're rockstars.
They're killing it.
Travis Bader: Um,
Ian Sim: so I don't know, what would you
rate government's, um, record on public
safety in this country in the last decade?
Um, pretty low, but let's say
government got it a hundred percent
right, all levels, municipal,
provincial, federal, not a chance.
But if we got public safety, a
hundred percent, right, we're
still missing a full 50%.
Of what community safety needs for
it to be effective and enduring.
Travis Bader: I see individual
safety, personal safety.
Ian Sim: Again, and that's
up to the individual.
Um, you know, do I think
we should, everyone should
walk around with a handgun?
No.
Constitutional carrier, there's a pistol.
No.
Right.
I mean, most of us in shooting
sports and on farms, um, absolutely
want government restrictions on
Travis Bader: Some people just suck
at life and some people shouldn't
be, shouldn't be, uh, have the
same rights and freedoms as others.
If they've demonstrated a past
history, the best predictor of future
performance is past performance.
So I'm not one of these people who's ever
been, everyone needs a gun in their hand.
Everyone's got a God given right.
And I've gotten heat for that in
the past, but, um, and, and just for
those reasons that I've mentioned.
Yeah, I agree with you.
So
Ian Sim: that part is, and people
say, well, you know, 25 years
ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago,
our public spaces were safe.
You were safe out in public.
For the most part, it's, I get it.
It's changed considerably in the
last decade plus, you know, it was
never safe, was behind closed doors.
So our public spaces were safe, er,
but it was never.
Safe for women and girls
behind closed doors.
And it still isn't.
And it's gotten worse.
Epidemic of domestic violence,
intimate partner violence.
I mean, I kind of study violence,
political violence, terrorism,
gang violence, intimate partner
violence, gender based, whatever.
I don't know.
Violence is violence.
I mean, there's some differences, but.
Travis Bader: I was reading
something about COVID and that
being one of the massive negative
byproducts of the lockdowns were
increased alcohol consumption
and increased domestic violence.
Ian Sim: And I heard this from
a few females whose husband's
retired from policing recently.
He's home every day.
I get it.
And the feeling might be mutual.
I don't know, but no true.
Um, so an increase in intimate partner
violence, gender based violence,
domestic violence, you know, I still
believe we're allowed to choose our
own words, call it what you want.
Travis Bader: Hmm.
Ian Sim: So that's been a
problem and it's still a problem.
It will always be a problem.
I mean, ideally we, we, we, um, in the
public safety, uh, profession do a better
job of prevention, but once violence
has happened, it's really too late.
It's done.
Um, If you survive it and the vast
majority of people survive it.
Sure.
Um, and the vast majority of
people survive all crimes.
But again, it's, it's, it's not, it's not
the odds of it happening so much as, as
stakes, violence changes people's lives.
Just the thought of violence makes
people very uncomfortable, particularly
if you've experienced it or seen it.
So you understand why people get,
you know, Kind of emotional about,
um, the concept of perhaps the LLDA
Travis Bader: or
Ian Sim: civilian ATC
authorization to carry.
Um, and you'll get the emotions on both
sides because the victims, um, who, you
know, a female with her two young children
who have moved up in the, up north to get
away from her, her, her violent partner
down here, she's got some very legitimate
And emotional, um, stories, right.
I mean, I've, um,
I've been, life is not safe.
Bad things happen.
Good people every day in this country,
big cities, small towns, and in the
middle of nowhere, everywhere in between.
Travis Bader: And,
Ian Sim: and by bad things, I mean, you
know, Terrible, horrific acts of violence.
Travis Bader: Um,
Ian Sim: and it's getting worse.
Travis Bader: And it's clear the
impact that it has on people, it's
clear the impact, the exposure to that
violence is having on you right now.
It's, um, I think that's the impetus for
the conversation for personal safety.
Ian Sim: Yeah.
I, when I.
Um, when I left my last posting
in a four week period, posting
the last, um, jurisdiction that I
worked, um, we had my team, uh, three
constables, uh, all on their first day.
First posting out of
Travis Bader: depo
Ian Sim: and myself, we had four suicides
and a homicide in a four week period.
Now that's an anomaly, but it happens.
Um, it was my team's turn.
It's just the way it worked out.
So, um,
uh, you know, the focus has
to be on prevention, but you
can't, or shouldn't deny it.
So, you know, most people, everyone
has the right to be safe, criminal
codes as you can, the whole bit.
Um, I,
my position is, is you can't deny a
law abiding adult Canadian the right
for civilian ATC authorization
to carry a handgun.
Except on a case by case basis.
Um,
and, and there are shall issue
permits States in the United States.
And there are may issue permit States.
We have, I guess, what's
we call a may issue system.
You can apply for a civilian
authorization to carry, um, in
the wilderness to protect life.
They don't allow it in urban
areas or anywhere else.
Um, and they may issue you a permit.
Now, if you apply for a permit
and you are, um, a retired,
um, police officer, who's got all
this training, um, you won't get it.
Uh, you could be a, uh, a violence
of, or a victim of domestic violence.
You won't get it.
You could be, so it's a
may issue permit system.
In reality, you're not
going to get a civilian ATC.
It's a
Travis Bader: not issue system.
It's a not issue system.
Ian Sim: So, and, and, In, in
the United States and in other
jurisdictions around the world, it's
a, uh, shall issue permit system.
You apply for civilian ATC.
If you meet, uh, this list
of requirements, which
the government determines,
they shall issue you your permit.
There's no discretion.
That's constitutional.
That would pass, I
think, the charter test.
The government can make the, um,
can, we all want the government to
restrict, again, firearms possession.
End use, but they have
to be relevant standards.
You can't make a permit 10,
000 cause you want to deter
people from having their permit.
Right.
So they have to be relevant standards
and what's the relevant standard in
BC with the armoured cars guards do?
Travis Bader: Sure.
Ian Sim: That's it.
We don't need to train everyone
up to be, um, Navy SEAL, JTF,
Travis Bader: you
Ian Sim: know, guys from Hereford,
like we don't, it has to be relevant
standards and the standards will be lower.
Then what I would have to do as a
peace officer, because the requirements
and the situations are different.
We want safe, competent,
ATC permit holders.
Travis Bader: Have you ever heard
of a civilian being issued an
ATC for, or experienced that?
Maybe, cause I've heard of it.
Way back.
Right.
I've heard of, Judges, uh,
working on cases and I'll put
a big allegedly around here.
Um, allegedly I've heard of judges
who weren't issued permits, but would
carry anyways, because, uh, there was
a, uh, a threat on, um, on their life
and their safety and figured they
would rather live through it than
Ian Sim: not.
And, you know, it, it, it, it's too bad
that you've got, um, peace officers that
carry all day long on duty and aren't
allowed to carry off shift and could
face, um, internal sanctions, a code
of conduct, uh, probably not criminal
if you're carrying your service pistol.
If you were carrying your personal pistol.
Probably not criminal again.
I mean.
Maybe not.
Travis Bader: We've seen examples of that.
So,
Ian Sim: but it's too bad.
Right.
Um, that, that, that's where we're at.
And as, um, community safety
deteriorates worldwide, um, and,
and we in, in traditional police
emergency response, can't really
address what I call that death gap.
Now's the time.
Now it still would have been
the right time 25 years ago.
Travis Bader: Um,
Ian Sim: I think quick stats, United
States defensive gun uses are at 1.
6 million.
The number's probably a bit low.
Murders, 19, 000 something.
Let's just bump it up.
So 20, 000, um, murders,
um, not including suicides.
Travis Bader: So murder would be
justifiable and not justifiable
that just, would that be homicide?
Or would that be.
Homicide.
Okay.
So 20,
Ian Sim: 000 homicides, 1.
6 million defensive gun uses.
Homicides are probably a bit high, 1.
6 million defensive gun uses DGU, um,
probably a bit low for obvious reasons.
Travis Bader: Great.
Ian Sim: Um, 87 percent plus of those
defensive gun uses, the firearms never.
Right.
Right.
Firearms, um, have a particularly
effective, coercive effect.
They, um, they incentivize people
to go in the opposite direction,
stop what they're doing, surrender,
and In the vast majority of cases.
Travis Bader: Stop, regroup, choose
a more desirable course of action.
Ian Sim: And occasionally, um, buddy
pushes it and it's on and, and they get
themselves shot or whatever happens.
Right.
So, um,
what is, what is the most, so right
now we've got the fire and freeze.
Um, we used to have the reasons for
shooting in Canada were hunting,
shooting sports and collecting.
Um, Um, the government has
maintained that to protect life
is not a reason to own a firearm.
If you say that when you're getting
your possession and acquisition
license, you'll be denied the whole bit.
Absolute nonsense.
Right.
It's like saying, you know, the only
time you can get a permit to have
sex is to make babies, but that's it.
Right.
We're all going to cross our fingers
behind our back and say, yep, it's only
for, you know, and it's just madness.
So that alone is, is, is
a charter breach, right?
Like section seven is the most,
the most important reason to own
a firearm is to protect life.
Number one, hunting second,
sports shooting third, collecting.
Travis Bader: Sure.
Ian Sim: That's it.
And, and we need to say that.
And it doesn't mean we're, uh,
it's, it's just stating the
Travis Bader: obvious.
Cause people will do it.
They'll get a firearm for protection
of life, but they play the song
and dance game of, Oh no, it's
cause I want to collect her.
It's no, no.
Cause I'm going to be a sports shooter.
Oh, okay.
What club do you belong to?
Right.
What range do you belong to?
Oh, I got to show my range
membership or my club membership.
Otherwise they're not going to approve
my license or they're not going to prove
the transfer of firearm into my name.
Okay.
Oh, here's the club I belong to.
They've never gone there once.
Tell them what they want to hear.
Right.
Ian Sim: You're good.
It's like filling any form out,
make it as easy as possible.
Now, obviously I recommend everyone
tell the truth on, on government forms.
Travis Bader: Yes.
Ian Sim: But I mean, you know,
you do an applications for jobs
or any number of things, right?
Make it as easy as possible for them.
To understand it
Travis Bader: and
Ian Sim: say, yes.
So I'm not advocating anyone lying
on their forms, but I know out of
every firearms owner, I know to
protect life is not for the most time.
Uh, for most of them is not the
primary reason they own that farm.
For some it is.
Sure.
But for the majority, it's not, but
it's a close second for most of them.
They all know that in a, um, civil
strife, um, natural disaster, that,
that the firearm is part of
emergency safety equipment, like
food, Like water, fuel for your car.
Like it's just a, a firearm is emergency
safety equipment, it's other things.
But to me, that's what it is first.
It's a reactive defensive tool.
And, you know, you know, so
the government's going to say,
no, handgun is, has no use.
Well, firearms have no
use to protect life.
Really?
What does every country on the planet
issue its government officials to do?
For, to protect life, handguns,
particularly handguns.
Sure.
Because you can have it
with you, it's concealable.
So,
you know, it's, it's, it's, it's
not just a bit of a stretch.
It's, it's absolutely ridiculous.
It makes no sense when they come on
and say, Oh yeah, there's, there's
no, uh, handguns have no purpose.
They're the most effective tool
on the planet to protect life,
particularly for those who are,
uh, getting on in years, have some
physical limitations and challenges.
Females?
Travis Bader: What's that saying?
God made man, Sam Colt made men equal.
Right.
Ian Sim: I mean, most of, most Canadians
know a couple where the male outweighs
the female by 100 pounds or more.
She's 130, he's 230.
I, I follow domestic violence.
Uh, I, like I said, in, in April, I was
at a homicide and it was a domestic.
Travis Bader: Hmm.
Ian Sim: Um,
men may use firearms to kill women
on top of every other tool that
they use, but no man needs a
firearm to kill a woman for the
most part, for the most part, right?
Uh, some, some choose a firearm to
kill a female, but it's the females.
Uh, because of, of the disparity of size
and strength, uh, and, and just, we've
got way more testosterone than they do.
Um, we're, we're more aggressive.
We just are.
It's just the species.
So, um, it's not, it's not men
that suffer, um, uh, the most.
Having a handgun freeze, it it's women.
Now missing and murdered indigenous
women and girls, domestic violence,
intimate partner violence,
the women are suffering here.
Um, the majority of women won't own
firearms to protect themselves in Canada,
just like the majority of firearms don't
own firearms to protect themselves.
Travis Bader: Right.
Ian Sim: Um, But some do, and some could.
Travis Bader: I think normalizing the,
why you're getting the firearm with
the firearms program on the application
is a good first step for people.
And the number of times I've dealt
with the firearms program and they
say, don't tell me that, tell me this,
like, for example, I got a gun here.
I need to register, right?
You've got the system,
you've got these rules.
We've got to make sure it's registered up.
Where'd you get the gun?
Oh, we got it from ABCD,
whatever the situation might be.
Just, just tell me you
found it in your attic.
They say, no, I'm not
going to tell you that.
Well, tell me this, look at
Travis wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
I'm doing this over the phone, but just
tell me this, it'll go through easier.
I'm like, I'm not going to lie to you
about where I got this thing from.
Right.
I don't want to be playing that game.
And eventually it'll go through,
but I, I've lost count of the number
of times that I've been told to
say certain things, cause it'll
make their job easier to approve.
They just want to help you.
They're being a good person, but it
doesn't, it doesn't help everybody
else if we're not normalizing a
process, which should be normal.
Ian Sim: So talking about rights,
um, You know, I'll have this
discussion with some of the guys
from Gunsight, Northern Arizona.
Right.
I mean, you know, a golf course
is the deliberate and willful
misuse of a rifle range.
Well, maybe not in Southern Arizona,
but Northern Arizona, maybe.
Um, and they're like, ah,
rights this, rights that, left
wing, socialist, rah, rah, rah.
And I go, whoa.
Rights are for everyone.
Um, if you haven't figured out how
to articulate your rights, that's
not my problem, that's yours.
Um, I'm sure that there is a hierarchy
of rights, I haven't really researched
it or studied it or whatever, but pretty
sure security of person is at the top.
Um, and you know, when I asked the gun
site, some of the crew and who carried
down the States, like, okay, well,
if you could have only your choice,
is it your second amendment choice
or is it her, uh, right to choose?
Pick one, right.
They all security of their person.
And I'm like, so you could live with that.
And they're like, and you know, the
conversation gets heated, I get.
Travis Bader: Sure.
Yeah.
It can be really emotional.
Ian Sim: And that's okay.
Like we should be having
these discussions.
I mean, ideally, You know, there's,
there's certain people that
shouldn't be at the table, right?
If, if anxiety and, and personal,
um, health issues, it's hard to
think rationally or, or offer, um,
particularly positive contribution.
Right.
We can all agree on public safety.
Um, again, what I call community safety.
And if you need both,
Travis Bader: you
Ian Sim: need public safety,
which is the role of government,
and they don't do that good a job
and we have our own limitations.
Um, and team Canada, which is that
ball cap there, that's the intelligence
services, the military, it's the doctors,
the nurses, the paramedics, the police,
corrections, like it's the courts,
it's, it's team Canada is a big team.
Um, but we're, most of us are old
conservative bureaucracies, which aren't
the most efficient at a lot of things.
So we need the personal safety
and the And that's a right.
The government, the government
doesn't have to approve it.
Canadians just have to
accept it.
They have to do it.
They have to take it.
They have to do it.
Rights aren't like oxygen.
You know, we don't, I'm not
going to walk out of here and
be surrounded by my rights.
Travis Bader: Right.
Ian Sim: Rights need to be maintained.
They need to be discussed.
They need to be kind of on the shelf
in a prominent location all the time.
You have to fight for your rights and I'm
not some right wing or left wing, like
I'm just, you know, um, we have rights.
Charter's the Supreme law of Canada.
They're not going away.
The West kind of believes in rights.
I get it.
There's some cultures
and religions that don't.
Oh, well, it's not us.
Our Supreme court's going to make
decisions on a charter breach, a
roadside or at a search warrant
or whatever, based on our charter
and our concept of rights and our
English common law and our history.
Right.
And most people that I talked
to, um, Love Canada for that.
Love the West.
Uh, a lot of the Southern Hemisphere
is trying to get to Europe.
You know, colonial racist Europe, they're
risking their lives and their family
lives to get there because of rights,
economic opportunities too, I get it.
Sure.
But, um, you know, again, when I, when I
meet people from all over the world, UBC,
and then now where I'm working currently,
um, they're like, you guys are rock stars.
You guys are awesome.
And, um, you know, I would see
some of the students for their
whole four year career, right.
And they'd pop by the office
when they were going back to.
Zimbabwe or wherever they're
going, you know, give you a wave.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Like, it's not like that back home.
So that's a lovely feeling.
Frustrated in my line of work, for sure.
Um, um, the bucket can fill up
after 25 years and, um, I kind
of dealt with that recently.
Um.
You know, I'm, I'm the, I was the peer to
peer counselor at my office, looking at my
young teammates, going to these horrific
calls, checking in, how you doing?
Um, but looking as well as
listening to their answers,
because sometimes they don't match.
Um, you know, and I've got, I've
got, I can refer them to where.
They might need to call, um,
go see someone the whole bit.
And then, uh, I noticed some stuff
at work one, one morning particular.
Um, I got in my supervisor's vehicle.
Uh, we went for coffee, went, parked it.
Um, and then my buddy left country
music on in the, in the truck.
I'm like, not your
Travis Bader: thing.
Ian Sim: I left it on.
Yeah.
And, and, and, you know, it was okay.
Um, and this song came on and I find
myself bawling by myself, having
had coffee, good sleep, like, and
I'm like, what just happened there?
No idea what was going on.
Just like, that's not normal.
Travis Bader: Cause.
No, that is probably normal.
That is normal for someone who's.
Same life experiences, same
background, that experience is normal.
And I think the problem that people
have is saying the feeling that it's
not normal, maybe feeling ashamed or
whatever it might be, but it's not the
normal that you want at the moment,
but it's a normal that you have.
And it's probably a real good
indicator that there's, there's
some steps that need to be taken.
Ian Sim: A normal reaction to some
very abnormal, sad, sadly, those,
those incidents aren't abnormal.
They happen every day to
people in this country.
But, you know, my nickname with
some of my buddies is Spock.
I don't do emotion, I'm demonstrative,
and I'm like, that's not normal for me.
Like, where did that come from?
So I'm like, Hmm.
So I, I mean, I'm like,
okay, that's weird.
Let's just.
You know, and what, what it turned out to
be is, is we've had, we had a number of
fatalities and, and there's a lot of kids
obviously at university and, and, and,
you know, we all have, our, our bucket
sometimes is small, sometimes it's big, it
can, it can overflow sooner than others.
We've all got different levels
of resiliency, the whole
bit, and I was pretty good.
You know, 22 years, I'm like, oh, okay.
I'm doing fine until I wasn't right.
And so, you know, I
kinda, okay, that's weird.
Not sure what happened there.
Let's just put it on the back
burner and see what's going on.
Right.
And then, um, one or
two other small things.
And you're like, and then, you know,
yeah, you feel a tap on your shoulder
and you turn around and, and there's that
big black hooded figure with the scythe.
Right.
And you're like.
I know you, right.
And you're like, me?
Like, I know who you are.
Yeah.
You know, I was looking for it
in my team, but there are three,
four, five years in, I'm 25 years.
And so I got more stuff in my
bucket and maybe, maybe a bit of
age, you know, nostalgic as we age.
Um, so I'm like, okay, I know who you
are now and I know what's going on now.
Um, and I know right now you're kind
of running the show, but now that I've
recognized what's happening, operational
stress, injury, PTSD, um, injuries,
my goal is to manage you and then let's
get you out of the picture altogether.
So it can be, if you don't recognize
it early, it can be, I mean,
recognizing it early is Obviously
the best with anything, right.
Um, you're not feeling
well physically, mentally.
So recognizing it early was good.
Uh, knowing what to do as
the peer to peer counsellor.
Excellent.
That's helpful, isn't it?
So, and then,
Travis Bader: and then just getting on it.
Well, if you remember, Spock
didn't lack emotion, Spock was
just highly, um, contained.
Disciplined.
He was disciplined, highly contained
and very logical in his approach.
But didn't Spock also have, he was
half Vulcan, half human, if I remember
something right, or, but I do know
that Spock actually did have emotion.
Cause I remember that, that eventually
came out at some point and the real
Trekkies, Trekkers, whatever, are probably
going to, uh, eat me alive for that one.
But.
Ian Sim: I didn't watch it too much.
I kind of watch it a bit, but.
I'm just going
Travis Bader: back to my memory bag.
So I didn't watch it at all.
Ian Sim: Right.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
Ian Sim: So, I mean, that's just a
nickname I got because I'm, I'm again,
and you know, I did that psychological
test, uh, for this human source
development course we were doing.
And, and I came across, um, I,
I scored what was a strong SI,
so steady and influential, um,
you know, not, not just even
Travis Bader: keeled,
Ian Sim: keep calm, carry on.
So, um, it's been a bit of a
interesting couple of years.
Um, My psychologist gave me a good
book, uh, which is a fantastic book.
If you're just a student of human nature.
What's the book called?
I don't know.
I can't remember it, but I've got it
at home and it's on my coffee table.
Um, and it was like, and it
was just from, from, uh, from a
policing perspective, from a human
interest, it was just so good.
Um, and yeah, we, we, I, I've thrown in
a few, um, cause I'm, I was always pretty
good at self care, single guy, no kids.
I live alone.
My, my family moved away
when I was in high school.
Um, and just, I got a few of them
in Halifax, but I'm pretty good
at self care cause it's only me.
Um, I didn't really miss anything.
In fact, I kind of caught it quickly.
I just didn't know exactly right away
what was going on, um, but it was on
it pretty quick and yeah, um, positive
coping strategies are way better
than the maladaptive coping strategy.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
And, uh, maybe I'm going out on a limb
here, but the fact that you reached out
and you want to help other people with
their own personal safety seems to be a
strong, uh, strategy where you can, you
Positively affect others moving forward.
Ian Sim: Safety takes many forms.
Um,
we're already, so when I said I
wanted to live my life armed, you
know, when, when the kids asked me,
why did you want to become a cop?
Right.
So you need a job with no math, wanted
to live my life armed, but really,
um, I'm just a believer in rule of
law, fair play, mean people suck.
You know, um, that's it.
Um, life as hard enough as it is,
uh, life can be horrific, um, way
more than I think the public know.
Right.
Like, I mean, I, I used to read,
I think it was a bi weekly sex
assault report of all the sex
assaults, reported sex assaults in
the lower mainland every two weeks.
I just stopped reading them because it
was so long, like there were so many.
Travis Bader: That's
just the reported ones.
And it's only
Ian Sim: three, four, 5 percent of
all of them that are even reported.
Right.
So I'm like, and I used to get, I used
to get, um, uh, read it, this Mexican
intelligence report from Mexico too.
And I'm just like, Oh,
I'm full of pictures.
I'm like, no, no, no.
I'm just, I know what's going on.
Right.
Um, but we're already armed, right.
Um, we got eyes and ears
and we've got instinct.
So that will carry you if
you're using those most
of the way through life,
but not all the way.
Right.
Um, You know, if, if, if, if, if
you ignore your eyes and your ears.
In your spidey sense, your intuition,
that gut feeling, or just straight
up, there's something wrong here.
The fact that you've got eyes, ears,
cell phone, uh, or, or emergency
safety equipment on your person.
I mean, it's PPE, right?
Personal protective equipment.
Um, but you have to be
paying attention, right?
So you have to be kind of,
there's a number of prerequisites.
You said the before, during and the after.
And again, that's what this book,
Deadly Force really goes into.
It's, it's not really, Tactics or
techniques, it's things to think about
beforehand, um, during, and there's
a number of case studies that a lot
of people recognize from US media
and then after, which is, is because.
Massive.
You know, the outfit, the organization
you work for, I'll give you a lawyer.
Sure.
Are you going to get a good lawyer?
There's a lot of people in jail in the
States because they had terrible lawyers.
Travis Bader: Mm.
Ian Sim: Um, so they've been through
the good, the bad and the ugly, far
more than we have up in this country.
So there's a wealth of
experience in there.
So I've recommended it to people
who, um, don't own firearms.
Travis Bader: Well, Masada
Yube has got some good stuff
out there on YouTube as well.
Uh, there, there's one, uh, there's
actually two that I can think of.
There's two really good videos
that kind of deal with the after.
Uh, one is Basada Youb and he's talking
about dealing with, um, a deadly force
encounter, dealing with law enforcement
afterwards, dealing with the courts.
Uh, there's another one where
there's a, um, I think he's a
public defender in the States.
And then he's got the, uh, a
police officer who comes in after
him and he says, look, I'm going
to give you equal time to talk.
I'm going to save my piece.
I'm going to talk really quickly
so I can get this all out.
I've got X amount of time.
And then you've got X amount of time.
And he is, his whole speech, the
lawyer was Don't talk to the police.
Right.
And it's, it's an interesting one
that I think everybody should read
or sorry, everybody should watch and
it's not, don't talk to the police
because the police are out there to
get you, the police are your friend.
If you're in a situation where you now
are required to have to talk to the
police, this lawyer outlines all the
different ways that it can go sideways.
Even if you're telling a hundred
percent truth and you've got the best
intentions, goes through all of the
different reasons, then the police
officer stands up and now it's his
half hour to talk or his 10 minutes,
whatever it was that his half time was.
And he says, all I can say is recapitulate
what he said, because everything he said
is true, nothing you can do is going to be
able to help you in the moment afterwards.
You're not going to explain away
everything and have it all figured out.
There are some things you
can do that'll make it worse.
Definitely.
So Masada Youb and the don't talk to
the police video are very interesting
after the fact ones, because if you
are unfortunate enough to be involved.
In a situation where you weren't
able to avoid it ahead of time
during the before or mitigate it
or, um, cause it not to happen.
And you found yourself in the
during, and you're able to employ
the stuff that you know, in order
to be able to get out of it.
Alive, the after is the part
that can really ruin most people.
It can have the most negative effects
after getting out of there because
the system that they figure is there
to protect them, they don't feel like
that if they've done things wrong, if
they've said the wrong things afterwards.
Ian Sim: Every lawyer in sales, when
we put someone sales or even roadside
where they get their call to the lawyer.
It says, don't talk to the police.
We'll figure this out.
You've had a traumatic experience.
You're under the influence
of drugs and or alcohol.
You're having a mental health break.
Like there's so many things
like now is not the right time.
And, you know, even with, we'll do
our own debriefings, a more detailed
debriefing, what, 72 hours down the road.
Once the dust has settled and our
brain has stopped spinning and
you know, we can process stuff.
I mean, there's no shortage of research
on the infallibility of eyewitnesses
and all kinds of stuff like that, right?
Memory the same.
We have a far better understanding
of memory when you're going to
get your best, um, statement.
We as police officers
have a duty to account.
So we have to kind of say to
investigators that day or night.
Roughly what happened?
Uh, I think some police forces
now are, aren't even doing that.
Uh, I don't know how that works.
Mm-Hmm.
But, um, you know, I, I think I owe
it to, um, the public and I owe it
to the organization to give a, a very
brief description as to what happened
Travis Bader: Mm-Hmm.
Ian Sim: But that after that self-care.
And, and, you know, we'll
get the rest sorted out.
So this book, again, no one thinks,
well, more people are thinking
about it now in policing is, is
police officers being charged.
Uh, in rare occasions, uh, one
or two of them have gone to jail,
um, media scrutiny, politics,
the politicization of everything.
Thankfully we don't, um, elect
our prosecutors or our judges.
Because, you know, what's the best
way to make a name as a prosecutor,
judge, prosecute a cop, a movie star.
I don't know.
That was kind of the top.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
You get yourself right out there.
Ian Sim: Um, and the book goes
into that and, and, um, yeah.
Travis Bader: You know, there's
one thing that I've, I haven't
seen this written about.
I haven't seen it through the, the whole
don't talk to the police and all the
reasons behind it that I've never seen
people advocate for, but it's one thing
that I think people should consider,
which is insofar as a lawyer is concerned.
It's if you find yourself in a lethal
force situation or whatever it might be,
whatever your roadside thing, whatever
it might be, you talk to the lawyer, they
said, okay, have you talked to the cops?
Okay.
What'd you say?
Okay.
Don't say anything else, right?
Don't you're done.
Don't talk to him.
We'll figure it out afterwards.
The one thing that I haven't seen is, uh,
the opposite, which is asking questions.
Because the whole, everything that
you can say, can, everything you say
can and will be used against you in
the court of law, that, that whole
thing, Miranda rights or whatever.
Um.
Carmen Miranda?
Carmen, that's right.
We're the world.
That's American.
That's right.
Oh, I know that's American Miranda
rights, but, uh, Canada, what do we have?
It's just, it's just a warning, right?
That's what they call it.
Well, it's your
Ian Sim: charter rights.
Travis Bader: Okay.
Ian Sim: Yeah.
Your charter rights, uh, Canadian
charter rights and freedoms.
It's your, it's so, um, yeah, you've
been chartered, you've been warned.
Um, so it's
Travis Bader: your charter rights.
So, um, that goes two ways too.
If you ask questions back to the
police, why am I being arrested?
Why am I being detained without
being a dink about things, because
obviously it's going to be a
human nature in there and But.
Everything that's said back can also
be used possibly in your favor in the
future, in the same way, that way you say
in the moment could be used against you.
So when you're
Ian Sim: arrested, we tell you why, right?
So right off the bat, you
are under arrest for this.
Do you understand, right?
And then you continue, you know,
you don't have to say anything.
Anything you say can be used against you.
Do you understand?
Would you like to call a lawyer?
Do you understand?
And a lot of the time now it's
recorded on a digital recorder.
The whole conversation is recorded.
Now we're going to have body worn
video in the not too distant future.
Um, you know, that's
going to record stuff too.
So I try and be as honest and
open with everybody I deal with.
Um, including, you Someone who you're
arresting for a domestic homicide.
Um, particularly with a
serious file like that, right?
You want everything done, slow it down.
Make sure you check off all the boxes.
They're going to be rechartered and
warned a number of times anyways, once a
homicide or I hit investigators get there.
So
I'm not, I'm not out to trick anyone.
Travis Bader: No, a hundred percent.
Yeah.
Ian Sim: And, and I
Travis Bader: will, um.
Most police aren't,
there's going to be that.
My, my opinion, um, growing up in a law
enforcement family, dealing with a lot
of for enforcement fam, uh, dealing with
law enforcement, both professionally and
personally, is that the majority of law
enforcement get in for very great reasons.
They've got a good hiring
process here in Canada.
They've got good training in Canada,
and we've got some phenomenal people.
You're going to have your very small
percentage that are just rotten apples.
You're going to have your very small
percentage that are just leagues
above superstars and then over time,
people are people and they're going to
see, I just arrested that person and
they're out again, 10 minutes later.
And man, I still got a job to do.
There's a reason we have game
trails because animals take
the least, the easiest Path.
Creature of habit.
People will take the easiest path.
They'll still do their job.
They're still majority are going to
be of a high caliber, but they'll
just plug and play and go through.
So by no means do we think that the
policing are going to be out to get you.
I think the majority of them are
going to be well intentioned,
but you know, if there's an easy
path, we can go through here.
And I mean, ABC, we'll go, we'll let
the courts figure it out afterwards.
I'll go through my process.
If you give somebody their warning as a
peace officer, okay, you're being arrested
for ABC and D well, stolen vehicle, right.
Or whatever it might be, or speeding, or,
you know, Oh, did you see me speeding?
Well, no, I mean, you
matched the description.
Well, what was the description, right?
And all of these little things that you
can go through, and I'm not advocating
for, for bad people to get off the hook,
but for people who haven't done something
wrong, because I've dealt with others
in similar circumstances, I've been
in a similar circumstance in the past.
And, um, Asking those
questions at the time.
Why do you feel this?
Fair enough.
I'm not fighting you.
Right.
We're not turning this into a fight,
but I'll ask some questions as you
go through, because all of that can,
can speed up a process later on a
process that might take, uh, let's say
eight years to work its way through
a system could be sped up to, I
don't know, maybe a month, it can be.
And when they turn around and
realize, okay, maybe we weren't
operating off of the right, uh,
information or circumstances.
So that, that was one little piece
that I've seen the asking questions
part, which I haven't seen out there.
Ian Sim: And you know, it's interesting
because people talk to me about
certain policing stuff, right?
I mean, once you got a cop in uniform
there, cause who talks to cops in uniform?
I mean, when we knock on the door
with bad news or we pull you over.
Right.
Um, but when do you, when do you
see a police officer chilling that,
that, that, and most people won't
approach a cop anyways, right?
Like to ask questions.
So we have to put ourselves out there
in our community, out of the cars,
on foot, on bikes, have to put the
right people out there who, um, are.
Are willing to talk to the public
when the public come up to them.
Yes.
I would suggest you need to put the right
people out there who will go and talk to
the public because many of them won't.
The minute the ice is
broken, everything changes.
So.
That's me, we're all different,
um, different stages of our
career, uh, good days, bad days.
Uh, policing can do better.
So there's talk about, um,
changing the policing model in Canada to
much of the finish, the finish policing
model, three, three year program,
um, kind of a combination between
police college and post secondary, uh,
with, with a focus on, uh, policing.
Uh, more relevant stuff, deescalation,
ground fighting, um, jujitsu.
Um, so six months at depo or at the
justice institute of BC or the Ontario
police college or whatever it's called.
Travis Bader: Sure.
Ian Sim: Uh, I think we could
use more than six months.
Hmm.
Um, you coming in with a four
year degree of even criminology.
Okay.
Um, we know you can think critically
about things, um, but can you
pass the physical abilities test?
Uh, like there's, there's a lot of things
I think as, as an industry and, and I
think we're moving in that direction,
we can do better, we should do better.
Um, we're held to a high
standard, which we should be.
Travis Bader: Sure.
Ian Sim: However, I think there's one
group of individuals in this country
who should be held to a higher standard.
Travis Bader: Yes.
I think I know who you're talking about.
Ian Sim: And our elected officials don't
seem to be very interested in being held
to anywhere near the standard that we are.
Sure.
And I think that results
in a lot of problems.
Um, I know, like, I know
some current mayors.
I know some past mayors.
I know some who wants to be premier.
I know the premier through my, he,
he bumped into a number of times.
Um, I gave him a couple of books.
I gave him a book on
transnational organized crime
called McMafia, fantastic book.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
Ian Sim: Um, and it had some discussions
with them because it's what I do.
Um, but yeah, we need to up our
game, um, you know, for a fabulously
wealthy country, our infrastructures.
Travis Bader: You know, I read a statistic
about, um, uh, about corruption and
it says, you know, you go to Mexico,
you go to some third world countries
and the rules are clear, right?
You slip them some money, get
out of the speeding ticket.
There's a lot of low level corruption.
Canada is next to none
for low level corruption.
However, at the higher level, higher
level corruption is through the roof.
So, And that's where the
lack of accountability is.
And it's, if that statistic is true
that I've looked at, that would probably
account for some of the, some of the
issues that we see on a regular basis.
Ian Sim: Well, uh, you know, shortly
after I gave, uh, David Eby that
book on transnational organized
crime, was it short, he did the
money laundering inquiry came out.
I don't know if it was shortly after
that, or I think it was before.
And he certainly didn't, um, start
the inquiry because I gave him a book.
Travis Bader: Um, but.
I think it came out into the public
perception though, people, there's some
hue and cry over the money laundering and.
Ian Sim: But no one was held accountable.
So, you know, there's a, there's a,
there's an old fashioned concept called
personal responsibility, it's ancient,
really, no one talks about it anymore.
Um,
I was quite impressed that a, you know,
kind of leftist NDP government was going
to, you know, initiate a, a big needed,
you know, law enforcement type thing.
It kind of, I think, stopped halfway
through and no one was held accountable.
I think that's a problem.
Um, our infrastructure is crumbling,
fabulously wealthy country.
Uh, I think we just need to get
back to basics and build on that.
We're part of that.
So we're part of the
infrastructure policing.
We should do better.
Um, you know, I'll stand at the
top of trail six, which is the
top of the trail, uh, that goes
500 stairs down to wreck beach.
And I do foot patrol still,
obviously I'm old school, but.
Um, and people go, Hey boss.
And I'm like,
you've got that wrong.
And they're like,
I said, yeah, it's, it's
the other way around.
Right.
And they're like, and they don't
know what I'm talking about.
I go, you're my boss.
I work for you.
It's not just a line.
I work for you, that's my job.
So I get, I report to the RCMP.
I don't work for them.
I report to them kind of like a franchise.
I'm a franchise owner.
I own my own franchise.
Um, you know, the, the head company,
parent company is pretty good.
But like any old bureaucratic,
conservative organization,
it could do better.
So I think some of my standards
and concepts and ideas are
sometimes better than the parent
company, but it's a franchise.
You do as you're told, um,
but I work for you.
Travis Bader: So I've got some friends
who work in corrections and they
say that, uh, it's an insult from
the, um, the cons as they call them.
Yes.
They call it, call you a boss
because it's SOB backwards.
Right.
Ian Sim: Yep.
And I understand the difference.
I understand.
You know who you're talking
Travis Bader: to when they say it.
Right.
And
Ian Sim: I understand if
they're American kids, for the
most part, Canadian students.
Um, yeah, I, I, yeah,
I'm, I'm pretty good.
And, and words matter, right.
Um, you know, I've studied
terrorism for decades.
Um, both personally and professionally.
My mom would say I started off as a
little kid, but, um, words matter.
And.
You know, when I look at a lot of the
antisemitic stuff happening recently
around post secondary educations,
I saw that stuff almost a decade
ago when I got to UBC, you could
see the groundwork being laid.
Not intentionally, but you know,
the, the censorship, um, you can't
say this, but you can say this and,
and, and the intimidation and stuff.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
Ian Sim: And, you know, I don't think
there's ever been a genocide in the
history of the world where it didn't start
with a demonization of particular group.
And it's, it always starts
with words, you know, um.
And Noam Chomsky would have
something to say about that.
Haven't read him in a long time, decades.
But, um.
And then I look and I'm
like, this is no surprise.
Travis Bader: Um,
Ian Sim: you know, and I, and I was,
there's, there's something called
the Chicago principles, I think.
Okay.
Chicago university or
university of Chicago.
And they, and the minute you Google it,
it pops up, but, um, yeah, you're not
here at Chicago university to be safe.
Say physically, but, but, um, you're
going to be here, uh, unpopular,
contrary, um, opinions, discussions.
That's what you're here for, right?
Um, the exact opposite of a lot of the
so called woke, um, cancel culture stuff.
So the Chicago principles, um, so
as a counter terrorism information
officer, uh, working on a
university campus, rec beach, um,
I could see this groundwork being laid.
We used to call it political correctness.
It takes different names, different
forms, but it's no surprise that,
um, that caught fire the day after
October 7th, or was it the 6th, 7th?
Um, And it was like, the
groundwork was already laid.
It's, I could see it coming and, and then
you see why it's entrenched because you
can entrench anything, racism, right?
Uh, uh, goodwill, like you can
entrench, entrench anything, just.
Get them in school for a while
and just keep pumping them with
whatever message you want to do.
So, you know, someone was asking me,
well, what can we do at universities to,
to try and get us back on course, um,
friendlier, more civilized discussions.
At the post secondary level.
And I said, well, I don't know, why
don't you pull all the money from post
secondary institutions in the province,
unless they adhere to the Chicago
principles in both, uh, word and deed.
Cause money gets people's
attention like nobody else.
That's it.
Or nothing else.
Travis Bader: Money and power.
So Chicago
Ian Sim: principles, um.
Um, maybe funding, provincial funding
should be somewhat tied to, to that.
Um, you know, the West
doesn't know at all.
Um, we, but we do a lot of things, right.
And much of the world looked
to us or did even still, we all
need to try and up our game.
Um, I don't think the elected
officials know what they don't know.
They don't have any idea that effective
and enduring community safety.
Is comprised of public safety, which is
their responsibility and personal safety.
They don't know what to do now.
They're sitting there twiddling
their thumbs going, Oh crap.
You know, uh, the liberals are
saying, well, yeah, maybe we'll
do some bail reform under C75.
Polyev's going, you know, jail, not bail.
There's more to it than that.
Travis Bader: Well, how do you, how
do you make personal sale, how do you
make personal safety saleable, how do
they make, uh, money off of personal
safety or how do they make that win
hearts and minds and votes by advocating
for people to look after themselves?
Ian Sim: Well, we talk a big game where
politicians talk a big game about rights.
You know, um, listen to the
liberals, um, advocating for, um,
Uh, reproductive rights for women,
Travis Bader: a woman's
Ian Sim: right to choose,
it's front and center.
Travis Bader: Every
Ian Sim: election it's
front and center again.
Okay, well, let's have a discussion on
rights in this country, particularly
the right of all rights, section seven
of the charter, security of person.
Yes, a woman's right to choose
is, is, is up there, but as that
other woman told me recently.
It's not exactly as it's been portrayed.
Maybe a woman's right to choose
is, is primarily how, when,
and if to choose to protect her
life and the lives of her kids.
Once you're safe, we'll
discuss all the other rights.
So we need, um, bit more of the charter.
In our high schools, we need, uh,
maybe a whole course, I don't know.
Um, but you can tie it into civics
or social studies or history.
Travis Bader: Or into everything
and just have a little bit
over and over and over again.
So
Ian Sim: into everything.
Travis Bader: Right.
Um,
Ian Sim: we, um, rights just need to
be a topic of discussion all the time.
So when you see in the news today
at either the local level or
federal level, um, on CKW, uh,
when they talk about public safety
is usually the term they use.
Travis Bader: Right.
Ian Sim: Um, that's fine.
We'll just call it public safety.
Travis Bader: Sure.
Ian Sim: But it, it, it takes
a village to raise a child.
Uh, I think the more parents, the better,
not getting any further than that.
I just think the more support
children have, the better they are.
Travis Bader: Hmm.
I mean.
Two
Ian Sim: parents, uh, brothers,
sisters, relatives, but it takes
a village to raise a child.
It takes a village to keep itself safe.
Canadians are going to have to re engage
in, um, looking out for each other.
Can't, we can't do it in isolation.
We can't arrest our way
out of this problem.
Like not a chance.
We are missing fully 50 percent of what we
need, probably more, for community safety.
And through any number, a number
of factors of which we have no
control, some we do, um, things
are not going that well right now.
We can turn a lot of that around.
Um, and, and the nice thing is, is if the
government is unwilling or unable to do
Do their public safety job, uh, better.
The personal safety part is you
don't need anyone's permission.
That's the most important right you have.
You can take as much control
of it as you want or none, you
don't need anyone's permission.
I get it.
Most police forces won't talk about it.
I don't think they know even what
Travis Bader: to talk
Ian Sim: about.
VPD.
Does a women's self defense course.
They have a number of female instructors.
I would love to have sat in on the
course, but they wouldn't let me.
No big deal.
Um,
even if we don't teach self defense
and talk about, uh, tools, um, we
can talk about personal safety.
In a, in a, in a, in a, in a very,
really, uh, I could cover everything I've
covered here in, in a, in a one and a
half hour course with a half hour Q and A.
Travis Bader: Right.
Ian Sim: I think all police
departments need to, cause our
core mandate is public safety.
So we've had it, you know,
the DARE program was for don't
do drugs, just so you know.
Um, SEPTED, uh, crime prevention
through environmental design is,
you know, to rent, B& Es, thefts.
Where's the personal safety component?
Travis Bader: Well, I think people are
afraid to advocate for personal safety
based on, uh, Well, I think persons out
there are fearful for the consequence
if they enact personal safety, because
it's not talked about, they don't know
the parameters that they're allowed to
be able to deal with, and they don't
know what those rights look like.
And then on the other side would be,
and I'll play devil's advocate here.
Please.
Um, That's how you get good policy.
Sure.
I think governments look at
liability associated with telling
people that they can protect
themselves and things go sideways.
So they'll say, no, no,
no, we'll protect you.
Right.
Don't protect yourself.
You lock yourself in the room.
We'll be there in a little bit.
And if they turn around and say, get
out there, protect yourself before this
gets too bad, um, what do they wear?
So people are so risk adverse
at all different levels.
That they start creating a system
where they figure it's illusory.
It's, it's, it's not real.
You don't, you can't have a
police force out there that
protects everybody all the time.
It's reactive.
Ian Sim: So I understand people's concern,
hesitancy, Liability thoughts, uh, as an
organization, I'm, I doubt my company,
my outfit is going to have anything to
do with, um, self defense, anything we
can, we can talk about personal safety.
Uh, from a rights based perspective,
and I'm not talking fluff here.
I don't think we've
talked any fluff today.
I think we've talked
absolutely concrete essentials.
So we can have, let's say in
every police detachment, a
community safety coordinator,
Who can coordinate all the sections
and support services in a detachment,
going in the same direction.
So that would be, um, GD patrol, dealing
with domestic victims and writing safety
plans and saying, you know what, There's a
couple of good books out there among many.
Um, so we're going to tell you to do
this, this, this, this, all this stuff.
There's a good book
called The Gift of Fear.
Travis Bader: By Gavin DeBecker.
It's
Ian Sim: been around
for a couple of decades.
It's been updated.
I think that book should be
in every high school library
and on every counselor's desk.
I also think that school
administrators Um, should also have
the book transition houses, safe
houses should all have the book.
It's not deadly force,
but for the vast majority of the public
who aren't that inclined or particularly
interested in the self defense
component and prevention is the key.
If we do a really good job on
prevention, You'll never need that stuff.
It's like martial arts.
Travis Bader: Right.
Ian Sim: I think the, the majority
of the benefits of martial arts
are, um, sense of community,
fitness, self esteem, socialization.
Um, you may need it to
save your ass one day.
And that's important too.
It's just that you probably won't
use it for that all the time.
Travis Bader: Right.
Ian Sim: But all these other things
that you do get from it are fantastic.
And parents can do it with their
kids, you know, I mean, super cool.
Right.
And most kids in martial arts, just
look at one or the two of their
parents, maybe both, like it's
Travis Bader: same
Ian Sim: like shooting, golf, whatever.
Travis Bader: Sure.
Ian Sim: So from a policing perspective,
community safety coordinator, every
detachment to get the detachment on board.
Get victim services with Gavin
DeBecker's book, A Gift of Fear.
Recommending your safety
plans to your victims.
Special Victims Unit can
also Recommend it as well.
Um, there are others.
I just happen to think
it's one of the best.
Travis Bader: What was your
big takeaway from that book?
Ian Sim: Oh, where to start?
Um,
it has a little something
in there for everybody.
They talked about media personalities.
Movie stars, TV stars, straight up
domestic violence victims, a great
section on, for HR people on how to
fire, um, um, problematic employees and
considerations before, during and after.
It'd be great for school boards.
Like I just, I think for the,
cause there's going to be a whole.
Segment of the population that's
going to start twitching the minute
we talk about, um, civilian ATC.
Sure.
Authorization to carry.
Um, you're going to have cops twitching,
just the thought of the LLDA, the last
line of defense out carrying off shift.
No, one's going to really twitch
reading Gavin DeBecker's book.
Travis Bader: Hmm.
Ian Sim: Um,
I, I think it's a fantastic book
for the vast majority of the
population, particularly policymakers.
So if we get a community safety
coordinator detachment level, getting,
you know, special victims unit, everyone
kind of moving in that direction,
we get, um, community policing and
school liaison to try and get that
book, um, in, in high school libraries
and on the counsellor's desks.
We talk to our safe houses and
transition houses in our communities.
Refer that book and any other book
they want to buy, victim services
are dealing with the victims, right?
And then we take it outside
of the detachment to the
community and we focus on, um,
community safety,
public safety, and personal safety.
Nothing contentious, no liability.
It's your right.
It always has been.
Self preservation is
the first law of nature.
Security of person is the
first law of humanity.
We'll explore the charter a bit.
We'll explore the criminal code a bit.
We'll talk about good preventative means.
The questions are always going to come up.
Can I carry a knife?
Can I carry a gun?
All this stuff, baseball bat.
It just goes on.
For folks who want, worst case
scenario is you have no tools.
So go empty hand first.
Martial arts, then work on
tools, tools require training.
They, they require, uh, considerably
more thought before, during, and after.
So empty hand skills are better.
Um, and before you get into empty hand
skills, you can get into other skills.
Sure.
De escalation, avoidance, talking.
I've never had to use my martial arts.
I studied a World War II style of,
of empty hand fighting, defend you.
So, um, Dangerous Dan, William Fairbairn,
um, you know, uh, Shanghai Municipal
Police, uh, went to, back to Britain,
Second World War and taught all the
commandos, including Canadian commandos.
At camp X in Ontario.
Um, I learned it from a, a former
Canadian forces guy who trained
with Colonel Rex Applegate in
Oregon in the years before he died.
He
Travis Bader: saw his book up there too.
I did.
Yeah.
Ian Sim: So, I mean, I kind of think,
wow, Fairbairn taught Applegate.
Applegate taught my
instructor and then I got it.
Like the lineage, it's a very short line.
And it's, it's, it's not,
it's just destroying people.
Travis Bader: It's,
Ian Sim: you know, few arm blows, few leg
blows and a few other unpleasant things.
It's just to save your life.
Um, never needed to use it at work,
probably never would, unless it was an
extreme case because it's, it's not.
It's not nice takedowns, come
alongs, it's none of that stuff.
Um, but I've never had to use it cause
I talk to people and I use humor to,
um, connect with, you can make someone
laugh, smirk even, you're, you're,
you're kind of ahead of the game.
You know, I've sat in rooms
with, um, heavily tattooed,
um, motorcycle enthusiasts.
Travis Bader: Hmm.
Ian Sim: You know, everyone talks
to the police at some point.
Or it's death or in jail.
One of each.
Um,
it's all because, uh, part of it
was because it was my job and, and
that was the unit I was working in.
But, but part of it is because they
sought me out cause they liked me.
Travis Bader: If I
Ian Sim: have to talk to a
cop, who's it going to be?
Somebody you respect.
Or, or at least don't hate because
he liked my dog, I got a pit bull.
Like we have something in common.
Right.
He liked my bike.
He made me laugh.
It's just.
He just, he didn't treat me like shit.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
You have to feel like there's
some form of a connection there.
Ian Sim: So again, you know, when
I'm talking to young constables
and, and, and, you know, new in
service, um, that person might be
your source one day, um, be polite.
Be professional, um, humor, humor
can cross some of those boundaries,
find commonality, but find
commonality with everyone you're
out talking to, schools, community.
You got to get out of your car.
We're short staffed, people are
busy, but you know, again, um, we
can do a better job in this outfit.
It's not rocket science.
Travis Bader: Uh,
Ian Sim: defund us, not a chance.
Travis Bader: It's
Ian Sim: going to be more expensive.
Um, but Canada can afford us.
Well, I don't know.
I don't know where all the money's gone.
Didn't go to infrastructure, I guess.
But we just, I, you know, we don't
have community safety coordinators.
I think we need one in every detachment.
I think we need to get the
detachment on the same page.
Then we go into the community
and do the preventative stuff.
We have the victims already.
We should be, cause now we've
got an interested audience.
Yes.
Maybe for a short period of time,
but maybe not, but, and you know,
we, we just get the concept of
rights when we talk at schools.
Let's talk about community safety,
but throw the charter in, right?
We don't need government's
permission to look out for ourselves.
Exercising the most important human
right you have is not taking things
into your own hands, it's not.
So when you hear that, it's like time out.
No, no, no.
Let's have a chat.
A
Travis Bader: hundred percent agree.
Ian, is there anything that
we should be talking about
that we haven't talked about?
Ian Sim: Yes, but I'll, I'll
remember it on the drive home, uh,
or tonight, or when I'm debriefing
this in my head all afternoon.
Um, yeah, I mean, I'll go to my coffee
shop in North Van and always with a book.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
Ian Sim: And have a big cup of tea.
And I probably won't pick up my book once.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
Ian Sim: Because there's
just, uh, lots going on.
Um.
Travis Bader: I hear you.
I hear you.
I
Ian Sim: jump, I apologize.
Cause I, I kinda, I'm a bit of a squirrel.
I jump around.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
I got ADHD.
I can, I can chase squirrels all day.
I've
Ian Sim: never been assessed, but, um.
You know, I, I think there's
some common themes in there.
Travis Bader: There are.
Ian Sim: And
I need help from my
community, which is Canada.
I need help from my community,
which is team Canada.
And we can, we can start
turning this around.
There's some big problems out there,
uh, mental health, opioid addiction,
all that stuff, um, Russia, China, Iran,
like there's a lot going on in the world.
So, you know, think global, but we can act
local, uh, policing can do a better job.
Um, I think community safety coordinator
at every detachment, and I'll be happy
to write the national course if they
want, uh, it's not rocket science.
We can just do a better job.
Resources are a bit of a problem.
Um, we need to educate our, um, educators.
We need to educate municipal,
provincial and federal politicians.
It'll be easier To it, to, to, um,
engage our municipal politicians,
probably they're accessible.
Travis Bader: Sure.
Ian Sim: Right.
Um,
community safety is highly
dependent on personal safety.
You don't need anyone's permission.
There's good resources out there.
Um, deadly force by Masada Yoube.
Uh, this is a history book, uh, to
keep in bear arms, but Gavin DeBecker's
book, uh, the gift of fear is excellent.
Um, local police department
should be able to help you.
Uh, Say hi to a cop when you're out.
Yeah.
I mean, right now I'm
out, it's summertime.
Um, and I got to carry all this cash.
I carry all these loonies and toonies.
My buddy's like, you
always carry your card.
What's going on?
I go, yeah, except for in the
summer, because there's lemonade
stands out there and like, get
out of your car, talk to people.
Most people like us in Canada.
Contrary to what you
might hear in the media.
Um, most kids like us.
Travis Bader: Yeah.
Ian Sim: Um, we can, we can
turn a lot of this around.
Um, you and your industry, um,
should have both these books in
every firearm store in the country.
And why don't we start teaching, um,
Women's defensive pistol class, um,
it's put in the cart before the horse.
Cause we don't have civilian
Travis Bader: ATC,
Ian Sim: but why don't we start
teaching William women's defensive
pistol courses around the country.
Silver Corps, Millbrook, there's a
bunch of other people out there now.
There's a lot of military people
out there who are looking for
firearms instructors jobs.
We could start that and, and
letting women know that, This is
the most important right you have.
Indigenous communities too.
Um, they're looking for
economic opportunities.
We are short of ranges across the country.
So if you want to address some
community safety problems in your
community, maybe an indoor and outdoor
range is, is, is a good economic,
a viable economic opportunity.
Uh, if it's indoor range,
you can shoot all winter.
You're going to attract people with
a pal, all of whom proven by the
government of Canada aren't criminals.
Um, and let's keep this
conversation going.
Um, we don't have to
wait till the feds do it.
Provinces could start some of this,
if only the LLDA allowing us to
carry off shift or mandating it
as low risk as you can get
cost taxpayers, nothing.
And let's, let's, uh, do that.
Um, You know, it takes a community,
keep itself safe and let's
start turning this thing around.
Travis Bader: Ian, thank you so much
for being on the Suffolk Road Podcast.
I really enjoyed the discussion here.
Ian Sim: My pleasure.
I'd heard about you.
I saw you last night for my first podcast.
I'm really glad I got to meet you.