Hi there, and welcome to Katapult Network's supercharging innovation podcast. My name is Jeremy Silver, and I'm the chair of the Katapult Network. In this series, I'll be talking with some of the UK's top industrial and academic leaders, business people, and parliamentarians to get their views on innovation. On today's episode, I'm delighted to welcome Lord Robert Mayer, Emeritus Professor of Civil Engineering at Cambridge University and a member of the House of Lords. Prior to his appointment in 1998 to a chair at Cambridge where he was head of civil engineering, he worked in industry for 27 years throughout which time he maintained and developed close links with the academic world.
Jeremy Silver:Lord Mayor has a distinguished civil engineering career having specialized in underground construction, leading numerous projects in the UK and worldwide. His international projects have included railway tunnels in the cities of Amsterdam, Barcelona, Bologna, Florence, Rome, Singapore, and Warsaw, and motorway tunnels in Turkey. In the UK, he's been closely involved with the design and construction of the Jubilee Line Extension of the London Underground and with the Channel Tunnel Rail Link, now known as HS 1, Crossrail, and HS 2. Lord Mayor has also achieved many awards in his academic career, and he was awarded a CBE in the 2010 New Year's honors list, and appointed a cross bench in the House of Lords in 2015. He's a founder of the Centre For Smart Infrastructure and Construction at Cambridge, an innovation and knowledge centre funded by EPSRC, Innovate UK, and Industry to a value to date, totaling £22, 000, 000.
Jeremy Silver:And as a member of the House of Law Select Committee on Science and Technology, he recently took part in their inquiry into how Catapults can better contribute to the UK's r and d roadmap. Lord Mayor, it's a real pleasure to welcome you, to the Catapults Network podcast.
Lord Robert Mair:Thank you very much.
Jeremy Silver:So let's dive straight in, and let me ask you AAA general question. I think it's a it's a widely held preconception that the UK is often seen as being great at invention and not quite so good at innovation. And as we emerge from Brexit and begin to recover from the pandemic, what's your sense of the current strengths and weaknesses in the UK's innovation ecosystem?
Lord Robert Mair:Well, I think it's improving. I should say that straight away. You're absolutely right that there is a a long history of British science and technology being at the forefront at the research level. The UK punches well above its weight, probably second only to the US in terms of of all of the metrics of, for science and technology. And yet the commercialization
Jeremy Silver:of, you
Lord Robert Mair:know, very, very world leading research is we're not nearly as high in the world rankings. There are all sorts of reasons for this that, you know, that people debate, endlessly, but there is something that hasn't worked so well for the UK in terms of of taking the latest research, the latest innovations through to commercialization.
Jeremy Silver:Why do you think that is actually? Because, I mean, we've talked about this. It's almost a sort of a chestnut now of the UK innovation scene that we say this about ourselves.
Lord Robert Mair:It is. I mean, people talk a lot about risk, that by and large again, I think this is improving, I should emphasize. But I think there has been our country, our our backers are more risk averse than in the US and indeed in, in other countries as well. Being risk averse doesn't sit well with innovation because, of course, by its very definition, innovation carries uncertainty and carries risk. If it pays off, it's wonderful, but it doesn't always pay off, of course.
Jeremy Silver:You've mentioned there the US and and the way that the US approaches these things, and you've had extraordinary experience around the world. The list of cities in which you've created tunnels of 1 sort or another is an extraordinary list. And I'm sure that there are plenty of other countries as well that you've been involved with. I mean, when you look at the UK compared with the rest of the world, you know, I mean, what do you think we should be learning from the way that other countries approach innovation?
Lord Robert Mair:I think it, in the end, comes down to to government's willingness to back innovation. And by that, I mean, also backing potential losers as potential winners. And that's a hard call. I mean, I understand that. It's a hard call.
Lord Robert Mair:People who are handling the purse strings, whether they be private sector investors or whether they be the treasury, effectively are naturally wanting to put their money where there's more likely to be a success. And and, of course, that's right. But it is interesting to see when you look at some of the stories in the US that I hear from my my colleagues at MIT and Stanford that, venture capitalists will be perfectly prepared to back 10 new ventures, and they know that 8 of them will fail. You don't see that so much in the UK.
Jeremy Silver:Is it a failure of government or is it is it about the private investor confidence? I mean, where's the or is it that we need to do a better job of matching the 2?
Lord Robert Mair:I think it's a better job of matching the 2 because I think I think government absolutely understands that we'll probably come on to this subject, There's some temporary blips in that at the moment, but There's some temporary blips in that at the moment, but, nevertheless, they are planning to to get up to 2.4% of GDP by, 2027 at the latest, but they recognize that that only a third of that funding is gonna be government funding. 2 thirds of it is gonna be private sector funding. So that that's the sort of ratio that that government thinks of and and is planning with the 1 third government, the 2 thirds private sector. So it's clear that the government absolutely absolutely needs private sector investment to really realize that ambition. And that I think is where the catapults come in.
Jeremy Silver:Obviously, the the catapults are still a relatively young set of institutions with 1 or 2 exceptions within the manufacturing space who've been around for longer. But but as a as a sort of concept, we're still really getting comfortable with catapults. I think finally and your inquiries, recommendations, in a sense, put the seal on this along with with what Baze had to say subsequently, it feels as if there's a recognition that catapults have got a significant role to play here. Was was there something that you found or you discovered about the way the catapult worked, during the course of the inquiry that have sort of increased your confidence around the use of catapults
Lord Robert Mair:in this in this objective? I think our inquiry certainly demonstrated to all members of of the select committee the fantastic, variety of the 9 catapults. It was an eye opener to see the the huge coverage of the major technology subjects really across the whole country, the different subject areas. I think probably most people were familiar with the high value manufacturing. And as you just said, of course, they there was a very good history behind, high value manufacturing anyway prior to the catapults.
Lord Robert Mair:And, and, of course, the high value manufacturing catapult has has built on that in a most impressive way. But that probably was the area which, if you like, the general public were more familiar with with the catapults, the sort of manufacturing aspects. But of course, there are lots of lots of other areas evidenced by the other 8 catapults. I think we also understood a lot more about what the current barriers are. There are rules that govern the funding for innovation set by the government, which do create barriers to collaboration between Catapult, universities and industrial partners.
Lord Robert Mair:And we we really probed those barriers. And I think the government understood those barriers, and that might, we hope, will improve situation.
Jeremy Silver:Is that, I mean, do you see that as being a key really to unlocking the investor confidence from the private sector? In a sense, the relationship between collaboration in programs and projects of research and development and the follow on investment that that hopefully triggers certainly looks like a model that we should encourage. But I'm I wonder whether you see it in quite that way or whether the you know, how you what you see is the nature of that collaboration in relation to trying to drive private investment.
Lord Robert Mair:Criticism of the catapults because they are having to work clearly within the resources made available to them. But it was it was pretty clear to us that that there are there are still large numbers of of UK companies, particularly SMEs, that barely know about the catapults. If they do know about them, they're not very accessible to them because your average SME has so many other things to be thinking and and and worrying about. So I think there's a kind of visibility and communications issue that we identified. You know, 1 of our strong recommendations government was to communicate much better about the catapults, to to assist in selling the message of this very powerful network that does exist and could do so much more.
Jeremy Silver:There is a sort of view that traditionally, perhaps, that where catapults have been successful, it's tended to be with in collaboration with larger companies Indeed. What's your thought about I mean, how do we create better collaboration in that sector? What's your thought about I mean, how do we create better collaboration in that sector?
Lord Robert Mair:I think several of our witnesses in response to that point really talked about bandwidth that each catapult only has a certain amount of resources, a certain amount of people to really, engage with large numbers of of smaller industries in particular is a big challenge. And it involves a lot of a lot of work, a lot of people, and ultimately more resources. And that was something that that came across quite clearly that you can only do so much as of the catapult.
Jeremy Silver:Obviously, 1 of the goals there is to try and scale up those SMEs and trying to create AAA larger number of midsized companies. Is that something that you think the catapults could could help to do? Is that part of the objective, do you think, in in work with SMEs?
Lord Robert Mair:I think, indeed, that is. Going back, I think, almost to your first question. There is the interesting UK issue about companies reach a certain side. I mean, certain sides, I mean, if they're successful. And then all too often, they're sold on most often to Americans.
Lord Robert Mair:Now that I don't think is something that the catapults can particularly do much about. That's a a deeper problem, but it it is nevertheless very true that what catapults can do is create more of those candidates, can create more of those success stories.
Jeremy Silver:Yeah. I mean, I certainly agree with you as my my background as an entrepreneur, I have to say I've I've helped a number of companies grow, and I have to say I've also helped them sell to American technology companies. And, I would much rather see those those companies and those teams of people remain in the UK and remain focused on on things that have benefit the UK. But it is extremely challenging and in fact the, you know, the challenge I think is as much in the investment community as it is in the companies themselves. The the the sense is that when you get to a certain size and a potential acquirer comes along, if you're a UK investor, you you leap at the first sniff of an acquisition.
Jeremy Silver:We've had a lot of explorations in the UK over the last few years around patient capital, around that notion of of of trying to provide longevity of investment, but we still don't seem to have got there. Do you have thoughts about what we might do in that regard to try and help investors stay in for longer?
Lord Robert Mair:Patient capital, as you say, is crucial here. Our select committee a few years ago did a report on on the life sciences industrial strategy, and finance and commercialization played quite a big part in in our questions. I don't know whether you would agree with this, Jeremy. Probably you wouldn't. But quite a few witnesses said the problem with a lot of the UK finance people is their lack of understanding of science and technology.
Lord Robert Mair:And we had we had some and I know that's not always true, but, I hasten to add that. But we we did hear very compelling evidence that in America, the finance people who are backing new ventures are more often than not extremely knowledgeable in science and technology and can actually understand and identify with it and talk to the people and and get get a real feeling as to where it's going. That is not so clear in the UK.
Jeremy Silver:It's a very interesting question. I I think, certainly, the experience that we've had in the digital catapult, which is the catapult that I'm the CEO of, we work very closely with the private investment community. And, I think we do a fair share of education there as well as of introducing them to companies and creating the relationships there. I wonder if there aren't other barriers as well. You know, very often we see private investment going towards companies that can move rapidly, in the consumer space or in services.
Jeremy Silver:And it's really on the more traditional areas of in of industrial manufacturing and the longer, slower product life cycle type, sectors where we see less investment from the from the venture capital community. The focus on disruption as opposed to reinforcement or or transformation of existing sectors It's dichotomy there that there's disruption is more appealing perhaps to investors than digital transformation. Perhaps too specific for this conversation, but I I it's an interesting thought, isn't it? Our investment community seems to respond better to fast moving, perhaps more fashionable sectors than they do to some of our more traditional ones. I mean, I don't know if if that makes sense to you.
Lord Robert Mair:It does make sense. It does make sense. I mean, I come in a sense from from a very traditional engineering sector, arguably the the least innovative. It's something I feel very strongly about, and it's something I've been working hard to try and change. But the construction sector is on the whole rather traditional and rather resistant, serious innovation.
Lord Robert Mair:And it's interesting to note you mentioned some of those projects that I've been involved with around the world that, not 1 of those projects is being built by British contractors. So overseas in sometimes very harsh environments, very different environments, very difficult commercial environments. You see Italian contractors, German contractors, French contractors, Spanish contractors, all out there, and you don't see any British contractors. So that's saying something, isn't it?
Jeremy Silver:Mhmm. And is that a cultural challenge for us then, do you think?
Lord Robert Mair:It could be a cultural challenge if you go back, of course, quite a number of decades, that was less of the case, but that was partly to do with the legacy of the British empire, I guess. So you did see British contractors overseas more in their territories that they were felt more familiar about, which probably speaks to your point about culture. They felt more comfortable in either what was still a British colony or fairly recently had ceased to be 1, but still had kind of UK culture. But I think it's more than culture. I think it's back to our points about risk.
Lord Robert Mair:It's back to that. You know, that, you you get some remarkable projects taking place in a very, very large sums of money in in far flung parts of the world with Spanish, Italian, German, French contractors recognizing that it's high risk, but also recognizing it's high reward if it works well.
Jeremy Silver:Very interesting. Well, that there is a huge challenge to us there, I suspect, to try and stimulate and to to provide that kind of confidence to people and and I suppose to to gradually adjust the risk profile. I don't think that risk is something you can suddenly change people's appetite for very, very quickly overnight. Is it? I I mean, do you have thoughts about how we approach that sense of tackling risk or derisking to some extent?
Lord Robert Mair:I think it's a really interesting challenge. We will perhaps have the time to talk about skills in a minute or 2, But I think I think 1 of the high priorities really of of our skills program of educating our technicians and our scientists, our engineers. And III emphasize technicians, I think, are are becoming and should become more and more important if we're really going to realize a lot of the ambitions that we have as a country for science and technology. But those young people need to be skilled in, obviously, in digital. Digital skills are becoming ever more important.
Lord Robert Mair:But also I think they need to understand a lot more about risk profiles. Your average science technology graduate isn't well versed in, in all of the, the business side of entrepreneurism and then the rest.
Jeremy Silver:It's it's very interesting because I don't think that I've heard a conversation that ends up linking our risk appetite with the skills gap actually. But I think it's a really interesting point that if you if we create and we want it and we need a new generation of newly skilled technicians, engineers, workforce, the part of what we want them to also have is an appetite for entrepreneurship and for taking risk. Do you agree?
Lord Robert Mair:I do agree. Yes. I mean, 1 1 of my colleagues in Cambridge, in in the in the life sciences feels very strongly that they in their graduate programs for life sciences, they actually have a fairly substantial part of the graduate program that they all will have to undergo with the business school where they are are actually exposed to the pitfalls and difficulties of entrepreneurism. And and and he he believes very strongly that's absolutely essential now for your rounded scientist, technician, technologist, engineer. You know, if they're going to really thrive, they need to understand all those things.
Jeremy Silver:So it does feel as if the skills graph is actually growing and that we're, we're actually radical change to the way that we think about skills in order to address that? Yeah. Do you think that we need to make some radical change to the way that we think about skills in order to address that skills gap?
Lord Robert Mair:I think a radical change is a need to reinforce the importance of of young people other than graduates, other than university trained graduates. So in other words, there is a huge, huge need for for technicians at all level of all sorts. Young men and women who who leave school and for 1 reason or another, don't feel suited to pursuing a university route have got enormous potential, And and we really have undervalued and and really under resourced our further education colleges up and down the country. And I think that's something that was identified in the order report a few few years ago, which which I thought was really excellent in saying that there is this real need. If we're going to thrive as a nation on the science and technology front, then we really need to pay much more attention to the skills program for our, young people, the 50% who do not go to university.
Jeremy Silver:And are we getting it right at the moment, do you think? There's been quite a lot of controversy around the apprenticeship scheme, for example.
Lord Robert Mair:We may not be getting it right in this in some of the detail, but I think I think government does recognize this is a really hugely important area, and, I'm sure it is. You looked at Germany. I mean, you'll know this well. I'm sure many of us do, but it's, it's astonishing that the I don't have the exact figures to quote to you, but the proportion of young people between the ages of 20 30 who are working 1 way or another in the science and technology sphere is very much higher than it is in the UK. And that's because they have a whole range of of of processes.
Lord Robert Mair:So if you're if you're academically gifted, you go to the good universities. If you're not academically gifted, but, nevertheless, you want a career in this in this world, you become an apprentice and you get very well trained. And the important point is there's no stigma in Germany about an apprenticeship. There is stigma in this country still. So your average parent, if their child says, I don't I don't want to go to university.
Lord Robert Mair:I prefer to become an apprentice. Your average parent very often is disappointed by that. Not in Germany.
Jeremy Silver:Let's let's just change tack a little bit and think about, 1 of the other big strands of current government thinking, which is about levelling up. And, a a much used phrase and not 1 that is always 1 that everyone entirely understands or or necessarily has the same definition of. When you think in broad terms of of of leveling up and what you understand of it, what do you think it it needs to look like? What should the strategy be now, do you think?
Lord Robert Mair:The whole question of regional development, you know, and call it leveling up, call it regional development. We certainly recognized in our inquiry, short inquiry on the catapults, that the need to broaden access to the government's strength in places fund. The strength in places fund is a good, concept, but at the moment, it's we felt that there was much more potential for catapults all around the country wherever they are based. And of course, they are spread right across the country, as you know, to be able to to engage with a local industry, with a local, university, and to do much more to engage with the strength in places fund. And that that's something we felt is something the catapults could do a lot more for and to actually assist the government in its leveling up campaign.
Lord Robert Mair:And at the moment, it struck us that's not, not happening to a great degree in, in many cases, catapults are again, constrained by the resources, but constrained by particular companies they are, engaging with in terms of a of a sort of organized leveling up agenda and the strength in places fund success story, then there's a lot more the catapults could be doing to, to, to advance the government leveling up program.
Jeremy Silver:What about, other sort of regional organizations, combined authorities, LEPs, as well as universities? Do you have a sense of, of of how we should be seeing collaboration working between those sorts of institutions and the Catapult network?
Lord Robert Mair:I think all of the above is the answer to that question. Again, we're back to the resource question. I think the it goes back to my point about visibility and and communication too, that that there needs to to be a really concerted campaign to publicize all the potential of catapults and all the things that local organizations, local universities, local companies can do with the support of of the catapult, but that needs to be strengthened and publicized.
Jeremy Silver:And that small part of doing that is, of course, the purpose of this podcast, which is which is great, A segue into, thinking a little bit more about some of these these questions. Just thinking more about that. I mean, you you talk about wanting to raise the profile and talking about wanting to increase access to the catapults. In terms of really contributing to to prosperity across the UK, do you think the catapults need to expand their role? Do do do catapults need to be doing more?
Jeremy Silver:Of, you know, I mean, how much of an answer can the catapults be?
Lord Robert Mair:1 of our strong recommendations was that we we felt that there should be more flexibility in permitting public sector bodies, such as catapults to have a larger share of collaborative r and d funding and and and to work more closely with universities. Now I know that the prime purpose of the catapults is to bring industries together with research institutions like universities. A lot would be gained for the catapults if they were able to collaborate with universities on research projects, linking those with industries, essentially bringing the university researchers and the industry researchers together, but the catapults themselves also having the the web at all and the ability to be able to take part in in those collaborations rather than just being facilitators. Now I I think the perception that we got a strong impression about was that those catapults was were very often seen as simply being facilitated sort of like a sort of introducing a university research department to a private sector organization and then stepping back because they that was it as far as the catapult was concerned. Whereas if we felt that the rules were a bit too strict, I think government's taken us on board, actually.
Lord Robert Mair:They They were a bit too strict in saying what share of the of the of the available funding could actually also go to the catapults as well.
Jeremy Silver:I hope that the direction of travel is is that there is more active engagement than simply brokering and convening even
Lord Robert Mair:though it's
Jeremy Silver:really, really important. But I think the the mechanics of the funding do have a a major role to play in the degree to which that can happen. And it's very interesting because, of course, you know, the the the numbers of companies that are able to collaborate with universities at scale, is is still relatively small. And the opportunity, I I think here, you know, is is to really try and grow that and to increase the the nature of the collaboration and the way in which that what the outcomes of that are so that they're not just about long term research, but they can have very immediate benefits in in industry today and in the short term. But there does absolutely need to be a middle person in the in the midst of that because the most part, universities tend to be thinking more long term in terms of their research.
Jeremy Silver:And the clock speed of of companies and universities can be quite different.
Lord Robert Mair:Absolutely. And, of course, there's there's this whole, you know, the TRL level technology readiness level. Universities are in comfortable territory in in the sort of naught to 4, but the sort of blue skies, the new discoveries leading to journal publications, leading to, you know, all sorts of plaudits on the university research side. And then the other end of the scale, 8910, 78910, you have the companies who are who are taking these things to market, and you have the valley of death that everyone talks about between about 57 when nobody's doing anything. The universities don't feel it's their pitch.
Lord Robert Mair:They don't really understand what to do, and and the companies are saying, well, it doesn't look very well developed to us, and so you get this problem. There's another point that I want to raise, which is the match funding requirements. My experience, with with SMEs, particularly with SMEs, it's it's even quite difficult for some of the larger companies. But the requirement that industrial strategy challenge fund, which is impressive, and and it's a it's a very good initiative, but the requirements that that an SME, has to partner with, say, a university research department, but must match fund. You know, this is tough tough for an SME.
Lord Robert Mair:It's tough for them to engage with that kind of funding.
Jeremy Silver:I I think you're absolutely right. And and, obviously, we've seen in the, in the last year during the course of the pandemic, the ability of companies to do that, of course, has reduced. And we've seen some very positive, very quick short term responses. So Innovate UK did respond very quickly with some of its COVID, recovery funding programs. Do you think we need to do more research into actually the nature of innovation and what works?
Lord Robert Mair:I'm not sure. I mean, I I think I think there are questions that are unanswered. Partly yes in answer to your question. I think, 1 of the things that really needs to be done is to try to get an assurance of long term continuity. And I I think that was a a strong part of our recommendation too that in our our select committee report, we felt that the catapults need an assurance of longer term continuity, including longer term certainty over funding, but also commitments not to be reviewed too often, which, you know, clearly clearly can be just enormously time consuming and and actually rather dispiriting as well.
Lord Robert Mair:I mean, I think it's clear that the government recognizes that catapults are a critical part of the UK's innovation ecosystem. I think the government recognizes that that some sort of longer term certainty is needed. I'm sure you know this very well as a CEO of a catapult, but that the there's too much focus on what to do in the next couple of years.
Jeremy Silver:I totally agree. We're coming to the end of of the conversation. Want to just raise 1 other topic with you before we close. And and, really, this is in the light, I suppose, of, a huge kind of cultural shift in the last year or so, particularly during lockdown and a real recognition of the importance of of diversity and inclusion of trying to close the gender gap, the rise of movements like the Black Lives Matter movement. Here we are, self confessedly, 2 middle aged white men.
Jeremy Silver:What's your sense in the innovation space, particularly, of what organizations need to do to increase their inclusiveness, their their diversity?
Lord Robert Mair:I think they have to they have to work hard and fast to do much more in on on that topic. There's no question about that. I mean, I think we see that in in all aspects here. We see it certainly in university departments, particularly in in science and engineering. There are some welcome, signs of much more diversity, certainly on the gender front.
Lord Robert Mair:You know, I believe very strongly that there is a huge need to to get to schools, and I believe it's too late getting to secondary schools. I I really think there is a stronger and stronger case for for young scientists, young engineers to go and talk to primary school children because I think by the time they're in their teens, you know, the all the prejudices have have have sort of filtered through into the teenage children. And so whether they're a boy or a girl, they they've got their sort of prejudices sort of baked in. The engineering, for example, is a male thing, which of course is absolutely not the case. And we find that infusing 9, 10, 11 year old children is so important.
Lord Robert Mair:So on the gender front, I think that's incredibly important. I think things are moving in the right direction. We're certainly seeing a lot more young women applying to engineering courses. And when I, when I was an undergraduate, they were extremely rare. And I'm pleased to say that's no longer the case.
Lord Robert Mair:Interestingly, in my world, in in engineering and and in in more specifically in civil engineering, when we change the name even of our courses to civil and environmental engineering, we saw almost instantly a big increase in applications from women, and that's so important. So in other words, the application of engineering to saving the planet in all sorts of different ways, particularly with the climate crisis upon us is is becoming much more recognizable and accessible to young women, and that that's that's all all to the good. But there are a lot of there are a lot of barriers still to climb, particularly on diversity across, background, and that's all still, you know, something that I think industry has to very much take a lead as that university courses, industry, HR departments. There have to be some big changes in in attitude.
Jeremy Silver:Lots of work still to do.
Lord Robert Mair:Yeah.
Jeremy Silver:We're nearly at the end, and I want to ask you 1 last question. Not entirely serious, but what do you think about all the innovations that you've seen, you've come up with yourself, and you've experienced across the planet in your career, which is your favorite innovation? Gosh.
Lord Robert Mair:I think there are quite a number of those. I suppose probably the biggest generic 1 has to be the the power of digital. When I look back early in my career, you know, the the way in which the construction projects were handled. And and, now you can get a tunneling machine boring under under a city with precision control, and, it can be getting its course, controlled essentially by digital technologies, things like that. And that's been the biggest single change across the whole world, whatever the subject in science and technology.
Lord Robert Mair:It's the it's the power of of the Internet, the power of sensing technologies. That has to be the biggest single thing, but that's a bit of a bit of a cheat because you were looking for something more specific probably. But I think Well,
Jeremy Silver:as the as the CEO of the digital catapult, I have to say I'm delighted to hear you say that, but I I and I've I promise that I didn't pay you to give come up with that answer.
Lord Robert Mair:But if there's 1 if there's 1 single single phenomenon, let's put it that way, that has changed the whole face of technology, of science, of our whole lives, it's the Internet of things, and it's the digital revolution. And certainly in my world, we now sensors, that can detect change. We can use satellite technology to to do image comparisons. We can we can see a small crack developing in a in a structure from a satellite almost now. I mean, it's extraordinary, the technology.
Jeremy Silver:Well, now we're we're venturing into territory, which is subject of an entire podcast in its own right. So I think we'll have to stop there. But, thank you so much, Lord Mayor, for your your thoughts and for spending time with us this week. That's all for today's Supercharging Innovation podcast. Thanks for listening.
Jeremy Silver:Join us again for the next podcast episode, and make sure you subscribe to us on iTunes or Spotify. Other podcast distribution platforms are also available. Goodbye.