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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: Have you ever had the opportunity to go on an assignment? Or perhaps you've been allocated one of those dreaded special projects? Or maybe you've been in a team that has a person assigned to it? Whichever scenario is applied to you, you'll know that success in these situations is by no means guaranteed.
[00:00:16] Dan: So in this episode of We Not Me, we talked at Kevin Asher, an experienced leader in healthcare, a strategist and innovator who recently completed an international assignment, and importantly, who's willing to share what he learned so that we can all create the conditions for success for ourselves or others when venturing on an assignment.
[00:00:38] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Meet the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.
[00:00:46] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.
[00:00:47] Dan: And today's topic, Pia, is assignments. We're going to be looking into this, um, actually fascinating topic of how people, executives very often get assigned to different. Parts of the organization, different countries in particular, and diving into that, and it's really sort of caused me to go back to a couple that I did in my time, which were, um, always fascinating.
[00:01:11] Dan: But you realize when you think about them, how challenging they are for everyone concerned.
[00:01:16] Pia: Yes. The poor people that you were leading.
[00:01:18] Dan: Well, absolutely. You sort of, they're very big for the as assignee, if you know. You know what I mean? But they're really dramatic for the people who are on the other end. I went to the US that was more of a. Probably more of an expertise role. I was a, I was a product manager there, so that, that was, I was sort of part of a team, but I did two jobs.
[00:01:38] Dan: One in China where I was supposed to go and help them to set up their marketing team. And that was definitely one where I had to really learn a lot. That was extraordinary. And then, of course, my Australia one where I ended up, working with you eventually.
[00:01:52] Pia: that was not the intention of
[00:01:54] Dan: That was not the goal.
[00:01:55] Dan: That was not the goal. No. But it was a, but, uh, it's a fascinating topic. As I, as I look back, I realize how complex it is and how under-prepared, um, people are for these things because as usual, they're, you know, they're picked to because they've been doing a good job in place A and then they're expected to do a good job in place B.
[00:02:14] Dan: Um, but, uh, yeah, it can be really challenging for, for all concerned and to date. We're going to talk to Kevin Asher, who, um, did a big assignment. He had a successful assignment and he's really, um, because of his interest in leadership, he's been able to unpick all of that and we'll be walking through that with him.
[00:02:34] Dan: So, um, let's go and talk to Kevin now about his assignment in Big Pharma.
[00:02:44] Pia: And a really warm welcome to Kevin. Welcome to We Not Me.
[00:02:47] Kevin: Yeah, thanks for having me.
[00:02:49] Pia: we're looking forward to hearing your insights and your adventures overseas. A little bit more about that later. before we do that, I'm gonna hand you over to Dan Hammond who's going to ask you a spicy question.
[00:03:01] Dan: I am indeed. And to help me, to help me, I have these, uh, conversation starter cards. So, um, This one is, uh, it's an orange card, so medium level of difficulty. Um, but, uh, let's see if you can dredge one of these up. The job I would be terrible at is
[00:03:17] Kevin: um. I watched a, I watched a show last night on the icon of the Seas, big cruise ship. Um, and I think any job on a large cruise ship, entertaining people for a week nonstop would be my absolute worst job.
[00:03:34] Dan: So wh which bit of that don't you like? Wouldn't.
[00:03:37] Kevin: the, the 24 7 smile and being on it, and it would be as an introverted person. Exceptionally draining. Seven days, no escape at sea.
[00:03:48] Dan: Yeah, actually, I, I know some, a young person who's getting into that world as an entertainer, and you think, and they are super extrovert and Yeah. I suspect that is the only way that you've got to just love it because yeah,
[00:04:01] Pia: Probably a high tolerance to alcohol and high Cs, both at the same time, probably.
[00:04:06] Dan: I'm with you, Kevin. I would probably be throwing myself off within, um, with within, within hours, I suspect.
[00:04:13] Pia: I actually did think about actually applying for a job like that when I was younger. I thought that'd be really fun. I thought, not real work,
[00:04:21] Dan: yeah. That would be, yeah.
[00:04:22] Pia: but I wasn't really talented at anything that I could do a show on, so it just didn't ever really happen.
[00:04:29] Dan: I'm sure you'd have found something. Um, so Kevin, brilliant. Okay, so we've learned a little bit about you from that. Um, it's sheds a these always shed a bit of light, but tell us a bit more about you, Kevin. How'd you get to this point today? A little bio in a box
[00:04:42] Kevin: So I started my career as a pharmacist. Um, so very much always had a, an interest in healthcare. Um, and about 20 years ago, joined the pharmaceutical industry.
[00:04:51] Kevin: So my, I've made my career in the pharmaceutical industry over the last 20 years, working primarily in the science side. Uh, how do we do medical communications? How do we do data generation? How do we support patient groups? And then laterally, uh, took a, a wanted to to broaden my experience and took a commercial role, uh, leading the Italian business for a mid-size company.
[00:05:13] Kevin: and then, uh, currently, uh, I'm working more on sort of access. So how do you get pricing for, for drugs and how do you get access to those medicines? Um, through reimbursed healthcare systems like uh, the n Hs here in England.
[00:05:26] Pia: and what drew you to that career?
[00:05:28] Kevin: so
[00:05:28] Kevin: interestingly I've, I've discovered about myself, I do enjoy the science and actually what I enjoy with the science is the challenge. Um, I, like, I'm a problem solver. I like to solve and understand how things work. And so, uh, that's been early in my career. How does. medicines work on the body.
[00:05:46] Kevin: How does his body itself work? So, um, learning through, sort of those elements and then later into my career, it's okay. How do you then, as I say, get access to medicines? How do you communicate about them? How do you show if a medicine actually is effective? And better than intervention. So for me, I would say that the core thing for me personally is I'm a problem solver, and that's what I like to do. I like to understand how things work, fit together. and if possible make them work better.
[00:06:13] Pia: and so you went on an international assignment as part of your recent work. and how, I guess that needs a level of, problem solving already when I think about it.
[00:06:23] Kevin: it, it does indeed. So, yes, and, and certainly when you, uh, end up taking an assignment in a foreign language, which you don't speak, um, so that was an, an additional element of it. So, yeah, so I like, and I, and I've done this through my career. If I, if I have a career option and there's a safe option and there's a challenging option, I put, I always take on the one that I find a little bit more challenging.
[00:06:44] Kevin: I made a decision about five years ago that I wanted, although I was doing very well within my stream, within the pharmaceutical industry, I wanted to branch out and try something a bit challenging to myself, put myself into new situations, and had this opportunity to, to lead the Italian organization.
[00:07:01] Kevin: for a period of just two years. so new role, new country, new healthcare system for me. Um, so yeah, a, a, a real challenge. So probably the largest challenge that, that I've taken on.
[00:07:13] Dan: these assignments are, fascinating. Right. From sort of before, during, and after, aren't they, so how did you, you, you obviously chose a, chose the adventurous side of things. I suspect that people on assignments are sort of, of that type, but how did you get in the frame for this in the first place?
[00:07:31] Dan: what, what was it like before you actually got to, got to head to Italy?
[00:07:35] Kevin: So I'd, I'd had a conversation with the CEO to say this. These were my career aspirations. And I think that for me has always been the thing that's opened up the opportunities, which is you have a conversation with people. Not to say, this is the job I want, but this is sort of the kind of experience I want to gain.
[00:07:51] Kevin: This is the kind of challenge that I'm looking for because it, it plants a seed in their head. and so, uh, I was coming to the end of another assignment at, at the organization I was working for, and had a conversation, uh, with CNO and he said, how about Italy? And to be honest, it was not something that was, in my mind, it was not something that was in anyone's mind other than his, and it had come from the fact that he was aware that there was an, an opening and an opportunity there, and was aware that I'd had this conversation with him before to say, like, these aree the kinds of challenges that I'm looking for. So it was really laid out in a very quick period of my assignment coming to an end, probably within about three weeks. And, uh, and him recognizing that for the experience that I was looking for, this was it, and it was going to be able to give it to me.
[00:08:40] Kevin: Um, so I would like to say that it was all planned out and everything was wonderfully sort of, sort thought through, but it was very much just opportunistic of, uh, my availability, the availability of this position. But I'd been having that conversation for three years before it happened, to say these are the kinds of experience I'm looking for.
[00:08:59] Dan: When you got it, what did you do to prepare? Let's walk, just walk through the whole experience. So how did you before Yeah, just talk us through that sort of transition of the, the, the, the before? Yeah. What, what,
[00:09:10] Kevin: So I think, uh, so the first thing was I did ask permission of my husband, uh, 'cause uh, that was, uh, uh, something I did not do in a previous assignment. And, uh, and uh, that involved me traveling to Asia every month. Um, and this was gonna be a weekly commute, so it was gonna be weekly commutes to Italy.
[00:09:26] Kevin: Um, so a big impact personally. So that was the alignment and support from him, uh, was actually the. Actually the first thing I did, um, before then starting to get my mind into the game of, of, of what it's, um, my second thing was, uh, to start Italian learning. So I, I bought myself a, a Duolingo equivalent, uh uh, and started doing some self-study of some Italian language.
[00:09:49] Kevin: Um, and I think then as always, I just threw myself in at the deep end. So, throw yourself in, immerse yourself and, and learn as much as you can and be open and ask questions. so it was, as you would do that, you read through the reports, you read through the things, but ultimately it's, it's the talking to the people.
[00:10:06] Kevin: Uh, and I was very fortunate that the majority of the team could communicate, uh, at the start. So, uh, so I was able to communicate with my team, uh, and I can communicate in a, in a, in an English that's understandable. Um, and, uh, so that, that we could at least get to the point, even if it, uh, took some time sometimes to fully understand each other.
[00:10:25] Pia: And how did you feel sort of going into that assignment, like not feeling fluent
[00:10:31] Kevin: I think it's the. Yeah, it's, it's, uh, I, I don't, I, I don't think I felt like I had imposter syndrome 'cause I know that's quite often what people feel. But what I do feel going into that is how am I going to add value to this group? How am I gonna bring value to a team? And that's, and I, and I've taken on many assignments in my time, which are really challenging assignments.
[00:10:52] Kevin: The, on the top of it, the, the teams around, you know, a lot more than you do. And, and that's great that they do know more than you do. And I'm happy that they, but I always look to see where's that little, that little magic, that little spark that I can bring to this to show actually I am adding value.
[00:11:08] Kevin: 'cause if I'm not adding value to a team, then what's the point in me? Um, and, and that's always my view. And, and I'm, I'm flexible and adaptable as a person. but. That's probably where I went in, which was how do I start to add that value quite quickly to people, going into, into a new situation. and particularly it is challenging, you know, it's in a different language.
[00:11:29] Kevin: It's in a different healthcare system. Some of these people have been in the company nearly 20 years. Um, so they're very, very established and you are coming in as a foreigner. and I quickly learned that the, the, the real value that I bought immediately was I was coming from our international global team.
[00:11:43] Kevin: And so I was able to have that connection between the country and the global team. So I was, I was a strengthened bridge immediately to get what we needed from our international colleagues and to communicate back to them what they were wanting to, to understand and to hear.
[00:12:00] Dan: Just coming back to that, making the mark, point. Kevin, I suppose, I imagine that's, that's a. sort of a bit of tension really, isn't it, for you to balance as you go into these, which is you want to, yeah, you want to make a mark, you want to contribute and you want to do something of, yeah. And that means doing something different, but at the same time, you've got a.
[00:12:21] Dan: A legacy. You've got people there who already know, know things, and you want to take their thinking on board as well. How, how consciously did you go into that, um, and how did you approach sort of striking that right balance?
[00:12:34] Kevin: so as I approach, I, I think I, I use the term of making an impact rather than making a change, because you can make an impact by reinforcing good stuff already and amplifying it. So I think that for me, that 'cause, 'cause frequently you'll go into an assignment and think, okay, I'm gonna change this, change that, change this.
[00:12:50] Kevin: And it's gonna be marvelous. And I've got the best ideas. And, and that's how you upset people and, uh, destroy teams and.
[00:12:57] Kevin: Now, uh, now that impact can be listening to someone who's been saying something to the predecessors for a long time and not being listened to because they do know what's needed. They haven't been able to get it executed, and you help them to execute it and make an improvement and a change. Okay? So it's not that you've necessarily embedded that change, but you've come in and then helped them. So
[00:13:17] Kevin: not on this assignment, but on a previous assignment, the, the one thing I did was I just improved communications. I just made sure that everyone had the right information when they needed it. Now, that's not a change, but it was a huge impact for people who were feeling because they were spread out across lots of different countries.
[00:13:34] Kevin: They were feeling quite remote. They were feeling quite disconnected to everyone. But for me, that's an impact. Yeah, you've improved communication channels. You've got people the information when they need it. You've got greater engagement from all of your team members. And yes, it's a small change in terms of flow of information, but it's not a big change and it's seen as a positive.
[00:13:51] Kevin: So, so I think it's, it's always just about looking for those small things, which, and, and these small things can have a big impact on individuals. and particularly when you're going in as a leader, there is a nervousness with any new leader coming in, and particularly a foreign leader coming in.
[00:14:07] Kevin: and so need to also navigate that. 'cause people are going through the change curve themselves. Yeah. People are worried, people are hesitant. Some people are disconnected through that change anyway. Um, so it's, it's sort of how do you recognize that in individuals and, and how do you build things together that are moving the organization forward.
[00:14:26] Pia: and what were your early wins? Like what, what. What spurred you on when you thought you're in this new situation? 'cause sometimes you can feel very overwhelmed, can't you? When you're in a, in a, a new country.
[00:14:36] Kevin: So, um, so I think the, the early parts I did, again, it probably comes back to the communication side. It it, the, the organization was still operating very much as we're a leadership team, then as a large gap. And then there's the workers for want of better terms and. The, the organization had had shrunk. It was going through a restructure.
[00:14:55] Kevin: It shrunk quite a lot, and there was no, no need to have these layers within the organization. So I think the early wins from my side was building the transparency and understanding of the business broadly across the people who needed that information. so I had conversations with, um, some of the, the senior what I senior team who had never seen the P&Ls, the profit and loss for the company. They were just totally unaware because it was kept elsewhere. No one understood how we were doing contracting with larger customers. So again, I built that transparency and said, okay, this is, this is how it's working here. This is how we are. So I think the, the bit I would say. From a win perspective was building that transparency and understanding for, for the individuals quite quick and, and it's easy.
[00:15:40] Kevin: Yeah. So sharing the right information, so not obviously confidential information, but, but, but building a better understanding about this is what the business we have today looks like. Because the business we had on that day was very different from the business that the company had when most of the team members had started.
[00:15:57] Kevin: And it was certainly very different from the time that I ended the assignment.
[00:16:01] Dan: I could imagine that specific move would boost trust in you quite a bit. That sort of opening up. Um, and, and it makes me realize that obviously trust is a big factor here, isn't there? Did you, were you aware of that going in and what did you, and if so, what did you do to sort of, build trust on multiple fronts where Yeah, what, what, what was, if talk about the, the sort of starting point of trust and what you did to build it, um, as, as you went in.
[00:16:27] Kevin: So, um, so no, so absolutely for me, trust is exceptionally important. And I know that we've discussed before, Dan, around the trust equation, which I think you introduced me to. And, yeah, I, I do think it's really, and so I built that through openness and transparency. I was fortunate it was, it was not a very large team, so when I joined the team, it was about 30 people.
[00:16:45] Kevin: So, um, I was able to build individual relationships, individual conversations, uh, with people, but it takes time. Yeah, it does take time for people to understand that you are genuine and you are open. because many, many times you hear this from, from, from leaders and, and actually it turns out they're not quite so open to what you are about to tell them.
[00:17:06] Kevin: so I think for me it's just that, that getting to know people, spending time with people, and. The trust, you can say you are, you are trustworthy, and you can say, listen to me and, and, and trust me. But it's, it's gonna take time because it's gonna be them observing you. It's gonna be observing that you've got the pull through, that you've said you're gonna do something, that you're supporting something and, and that it, and it is pulled through or that you say that you'll be, uh, supporting them and, and helping them in their career and highlighting them, uh, and then they, they see the outputs of that.
[00:17:35] Kevin: So it does take time for sure.
[00:17:37] Pia: do you, did you find that, I mean, quite often, um, when you get a GM role and, and that, and that person comes from another country. And we get this a lot in Australia, there is an element where they've got a three year window and they've gotta make a quite a big impact. and, and individuals feel that temporary nature of these placements and that has an impact on, on that.
[00:17:59] Pia: Did, did you come across that I.
[00:18:01] Kevin: absolutely. Uh, absolutely did because, uh, my, my assignment had an end date. Um, and so I always had it and, and I think the bit that really emphasized it was that I was a commuter. I think if I had relocated. It would've been slightly different, but there was always a, it wasn't a visible, but there was always a, a slight tension of we know that this is temporary and what's it going to be afterwards and.
[00:18:29] Kevin: I invested a lot of my thinking and preparation into it not being about me as the leader, but being about the company was going through a large reorganization. How do we align to that reorganization? So as I, as I left the assignment, the company was, uh, implementing a final reorganization or the, the most recent one, but they were implementing things we had already implemented in Italy. Because I was aware of thee direction we were going in. Um, the pharmaceutical industry is very cyclical because of the patent life of drugs. and so we were very aware, so actually the changes that were then coming across in all of the other countries we had already implemented in Italy. The challenge you've got there is you can't communicate that.
[00:19:11] Kevin: Transparently to everyone because it, it's, that is the confidential information that I was aware of within that whole process. So within the, the sort of nearly two years I was there, it was always with this destination, it was always with a refocus on a, a new launch product, to be working on. and, and we were in a very good place for that.
[00:19:30] Kevin: But it, it happened, I was leaving and, and it's very unsettling for the team, then waiting for who's going to be the next gm. So certainly I would say the, it's, um. I, I got to the point I could understand Italian, which was great. I wasn't the best speaker. I still spoke like a 3-year-old. Um, but I could run, I could run and I could, we could run the meetings in Italian and I could follow and understand and then I'd respond in English, um, which was great because that communication.
[00:19:54] Kevin: And so I'd really, I would say by the end of two years, I'd really just found my feet. And was really quite understanding the business, understanding the beat. And that's one of the challenges. You know, it takes you that long to really get the full understanding. Um, and then it's the end of your assignment.
[00:20:08] Pia: that's a bit of a shave, isn't it? You're just finding your feet.
[00:20:11] Kevin: Yeah. Absolutely. And, and I think that's when I've spoken to many people on assignments, that's the reality is, is you're really becoming impactful at the, that end of your assignment. Um, and then it's over.
[00:20:22] Pia: on a practical level, how was it commuting during those two years?
[00:20:25] Kevin: It is tiring, I would say. Um, so I'm getting a little bit older. Um, so the, it's, it's fine. You, you find your way. So I knew exactly where I would stand on the train to Heathrow, I'd know exactly where I'd stand in the queue to get through security, where I'd get my breakfast, where I'd stand on the bus to get into Leonard, how I'd get the metro, everything timed to perfection. it's, it becomes a routine. it meant that I didn't want to get on an airplane ever again.
[00:20:54] Kevin: But it's, uh, yeah, it's more, I, I tell you that it was fine other than landing back into Heathrow. So anyone who's ever landed into Heathrow, that is never a smooth journey. So, um, uh, it would be a, a tale of, I, I almost was thinking of writing a blog, uh, on the, on the, the experiences I had landing into Heathrow what could go wrong and did so. Um, so, which is fascinating.
[00:21:15] Dan: Um, and looking back briefly on it, on it and um, was there anything you would do differently?
[00:21:21] Kevin: so, yeah, I think there are for sure. And I think this is the challenge that you, you're taking on a stretch assignment. You. I think in the first year I was getting a new experience pretty much every two days. Okay. There would be something I was dealing with for the first time. And so there were clearly, therefore hundreds of things I would do differently now because I've, it's the second time I'd experienced it or the third time I'd experienced it.
[00:21:48] Kevin: And, and you're, you're learning on that and that's small things. Yeah. So they're very, very small things. Um, and again, I think that's the challenge with an assignment when it's such a stretch assignment is it doesn't mean you don't have the skills and capabilities. To solve the issues to, to come to the right solution.
[00:22:05] Kevin: But it's your first experience of it. Yeah. You are learning all of the time. Uh, and I would say by the end of the assignment, I was probably getting to a new experience probably once a month, every three weeks kind of thing. So this is the first time I'm experienced this or, or that. So, and I think for me, for the whole assignment, that was my learning, which was as I then.
[00:22:26] Kevin: I've been looking at assignments. I'm saying actually I'm looking to do an assignment next one, which is very similar. I'm not looking to progress and move on. I'm looking to continue and that's what I'm doing at the moment is just continue to build my experience, um, level so that I've got greater experience.
[00:22:44] Kevin: So, and it's not because I think I need to learn a lot more skills, it's that I need to get that greater experience so I can react quicker, or say, I can react because I've either done this before or done something very similar to this before.
[00:22:57] Pia: You said that you went on a number of these and you took that learning. What was the biggest learning that you took forward and, and actually probably have applied to your own leadership in the whole process?
[00:23:07] Kevin: the, the one big learning I've taken is, and, and it's a, and it's a tough one, and it's a really tough one to get the balance of, which is when you're going through a big reorganization restructuring. It's, it's to do with people. And when do you make a decision that actually it's the right time for that person to leave the organization?
[00:23:27] Kevin: And when do you invest the time in the people to help them through that transition? And for me, that's, it's a, it's a, it's a really tough one. Um, and it's a tough one to get right. and I probably invest too much in trying to get people through that transition and. Get into the new organization, but, but when you're going through such a large reorganization, the company is a different company.
[00:23:50] Kevin: And I, and I would have these conversations with people to say, it's not the company that you joined. It's not the company that you enjoyed. You need to make a reassessment of this is the company now. Is it the company you wish to work in? and I think my learnings from there is sometimes. I probably should make a decision earlier to have a bit of a more frank conversation and say, actually, this company is not for you.
[00:24:13] Kevin: It's really not what you are wanting to get from your role, what you are wanting to get from, uh, your, your job. It, it's not here anymore. So let's help you to, to, to move on. because those individuals can, can draw people back. Yeah. They can hold back the rest of the team who are moving forward and, and it's, and it's a really hard,
[00:24:32] Dan: Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it? Because you, you value you, I know, I know you quite well, fortunately, and you value leadership. So there is a sense that actually if that your leadership should be able to help people to fit better, to succeed in their role. I mean, that's the essence of leadership and um, but it, and it's interesting to sort of sometimes that other side of, actually that's not the.
[00:24:54] Dan: That's not what's required here is something, something else. It's, um, I think naturally a very big challenge for someone who values that, uh, that ability to lead. In fact. Um, so Kevin talk, talk about the reentry. So return the end, let's talk about that and sort of, um, move into that. What, um, what happened on the approach to that and what, what did that look like?
[00:25:15] Kevin: Yeah. So, uh, so for, for the end, it's, it's you you're in countdown mode. Yeah. You're in, this is how many Airbnbs I still have to stay in. This is how many flights I need to get. This is how many meetings I've still got. And there's no way you can escape that, I don't think. Yeah, because, and certainly for me, I'm a planner, uh, so I do plan everything.
[00:25:34] Kevin: Um, and so I would say really from the start of, I, I started the conversation six months before with my leadership just to say, look, my, my, my assignment is coming to an end, um, at the end of March. Started with my leadership team to prepare them. and there, there wasn't someone ready to take over my position, uh, when I left.
[00:25:53] Kevin: So I was leaving with a vacancy, uh, behind me. Um, and, and taking on those general manager roles. There are, there are real practical solutions that you need to be thinking about because there are legal responsibilities. There's who signs off the bank? It has the authority, and particularly in Italy, it's exceptionally bureaucratic. so it was very much a planning for who is going to cover this in my absence.
[00:26:16] Kevin: Um, who do I hand over all of these assignments to? Um, I created very detailed handovers, um, talk to people. Um, so it was very much with a view of how do we keep going? Everything that, that we've got and how, how does, how do people have the information that's been in my head? And I think that was my biggest challenge.
[00:26:36] Kevin: I had a lot in my head. So I spent probably two, three weeks getting everything out of my head and over to other people, um, so that they could understand, not necessarily, 'cause you need to understand at the end of these assignments, people aren't gonna make the same decisions that you made, but at least you can give them the information that you had and informed.
[00:26:53] Kevin: So my focus. A business continuity perspective was, was to hand that all over. uh, and then obviously then there's the life changing, thing, which is, uh, yeah, I took a, a short vacation personally, uh, and, and then started my next project, which was the, the house renovation. which became my full-time job for, for three months.
[00:27:11] Dan: so you didn't, in this case, return to a role in the sa, which is very often the case. You go, you know, go and do a, um, do an assignment, come back to the same organizations.
[00:27:21] Kevin: no. So, so there was no role for me. The, the organization was re restructuring, uh, at that time there was no appropriate role for me to return to in the uk. So that's why I left the organization.
[00:27:31] Dan: It's interesting. When I did a, a international assignment in the, this was even in the nineties, someone who was very wise said, make sure before you go, you have your return. Role lined up so that people don't, and even, even in the nineties, that seemed like an impossibility because in reality, these assignments are a step into a, you are going, but you don't know what you're coming back to.
[00:27:55] Dan: There's, there's no chance that that role is there. It's quite a step, quite a courageous step for that reason, isn't it?
[00:28:01] Kevin: Yeah. And, and I'd gone into it eyes wide open because I'd recruited the person into my old role. So, um, so, so I knew that that role, that role wasn't there because, uh, I'd been involved in that recruitment process. and it, and it is, it, it comes down to, yes, I knew I was going to come back to, to no role, but the opportunity was there and it was such a great development opportunity for me that there is no way I wouldn't take it..
[00:28:26] Dan: Thank you Kevin. It's, it's just these things are so fascinating. I think you've, you've done a great job of looking from the point of view of, of the team you go to lead, um, actually through this, because of course it's, it's fascinating for all parties here. and they're quite a, quite a. An unusual situation in some ways.
[00:28:43] Dan: What, what, um, what would you say to our listener if they have the opportunity to get an assignment? What's your one thing, practical thing they could take away from your, your experience that you point them in the direction of?
[00:28:53] Kevin: I think as you said, that these assignments are thought of as, as temporary. because ordinarily most people know that it's, it's, it's for a fixed time period. my advice will be not to go in and think you need to change everything, reinforce those things which are working really well.
[00:29:11] Kevin: Um, but then work locally with the team because I, I bet your local team that you go in and they've got some bug bears and so if you are talking to a local team and you've got 10 of them saying, we need to change this, then maybe you do. And so they are really quick things that you can do to make things better for the team.
[00:29:29] Kevin: listen to them, get their inputs, get their advice, and maybe help them have a greater understanding about the, the wider context. 'cause in my case, that was the situation. They didn't have the bigger picture of what was happening. you, you've gotta short period to make the impacts.
[00:29:42] Kevin: As, as Piare said, yeah, you do need to make an impact if you just go in and just keep things ticking. That's very rarely what you've been sent in to do. Yeah. You've never really been, oh, just turn up. Turn up, spend three years there and leave. That's very rarely do you get an assignment to do that. You normally have a task, you normally have a, a goal that you're trying to achieve.
[00:30:00] Kevin: So, so yeah, I think it's worked with the local people because generally they will have a lot more knowledge than you do upfront. Um, and, and if you can even take half of the people on that journey with you, your life and your assignment is going to be much easier.
[00:30:14] Pia: I think that's such, such good advice on, you know, and that how to make the most of these opportunities for the people that you are with, as well as, um, well as for yourself. So let, let's, um, let's conclude this great conversation, Kevin, by what's your recommendation for media? Are you. A podcast or a other than this one, of course, um, um, a if you have podcast, a film, a book, um, something you're listening to, what's piqueing your interest and why?
[00:30:44] Kevin: So I, as, as I mentioned before, I, I'm doing some posts at the moment, uh, around my house renovation, um, and, and linking them to various things. So the, the thing that I've been thinking about and working on recently is motivation. and so I, I made a post, uh, uh, LinkedIn last week about, motivation, and it's a, a book by Susan Fowler, um, uh, which is why Motivating People doesn't work and what does. And it's just come out in a second edition.
[00:31:08] Kevin: and it's really thinking about, like, I've had to do some, and Dan's been following, I think on my house renovation so that the, the removal of the very large mouse nest that I had to do under the kitchen floor was probably one of the most unpleasant things I had to do. And you, you start to challenge yourself.
[00:31:22] Kevin: Why are you doing this? And what's motivating you to still do this? And, and my motivation for all of these things is I, I always have the goal in sight. I, I've got a very good imagination I can see, and I have been able to see what this kitchen is gonna look like in the future. Um, and it means that the motivation is, it's just inherent.
[00:31:38] Kevin: You know, I have this inherent motivation for problem solving, for the building, for getting to that goal, which in our place is, is to have a nice functioning kitchen without a mouse nest underneath the floor. But, but I find that really interesting, which is, and, and it, and I, I think trying to motivate people to do things you want them to do doesn't really work. Encouraging people and helping them find their own motivation. For things that aligned to what they're wanting to do, it's much, much easier.
[00:32:08] Kevin: Okay. Because I speak to people and they say, I cannot think of anything worth, like I said, on working on Icon of the Seas. Yeah. I can't think of anything worse. Other people, when they say, I can't think of anything worse than having to fit a kitchen or do all of this, these things. But it's inherent to me.
[00:32:22] Kevin: I really do enjoy it. So I think for me, that's the big thing. It's the, it's something that's been on my mind just in the last week or so, which is, as a leader, how do you help people to find the things that, that they are really motivated and really linked to. ' cause I can tell you when you are trying to achieve a goal and it's aligned to something that's inherent to them, aligned to their beliefs, aligned to something they like, I can tell you it's a lot, a lot, lot easier. It's a lot lot easier to get to that goal than trying to just motivate people through other ways.
[00:32:51] Dan: A huge believer in that, Kevin. Thank you. And that it's, um, yeah, because I think a lot of people have put off leadership because they feel they need to be inspirational, motivational, and, and actually it's more about the other people, isn't it? And, and tapping into what motivates them. So yeah, love that recommendation of that book.
[00:33:06] Dan: Thank you. That'll be in the show notes. Kevin just leaves me to say thank you so much for joining us. Today from Sunny Devon, um, even if it's not sunny. Um, but to, to share your experiences. I think anyone, um, embarking on assignment will, um, and ev even more broadly will find this, uh, really useful. So thank you so much for taking the time.
[00:33:25] Kevin: No, thanks for having me.
[00:33:29] Pia: So I think you, you do have to realize that when you're on an assignment like this, you are visiting for a, for a period of time, you are the visitor and that the business may have had several visitors visiting over a period of time. So. I think there's some responsibility and, and accountability with that.
[00:33:48] Pia: Uh, knowing what your impact is and not trying to, create such a strong impact that you create fatigue for the poor people that are, that you are leading. So I think that two, two-way communication, that transparency, that understanding is really important. That clarity of expectations for yourself and for everyone else, I think is, is key.
[00:34:10] Dan: Yeah, no, I think that's right. I it, it is so funny you mention that because I, when I was on my assignment in Australia, I, I. I really wanted to cr to, to create change. I felt that they had a lot, that there was a lot that they could do. And I was coming from the uk, which had been really successful, and I was, I felt I could take a lot of those learnings.
[00:34:29] Dan: So I had the feedback from someone in my team that w that it was disruptive, that I was driving too much change and it was disruptive. And I thought that, um, yeah, that's my goal. But actually I think I could have listened to that a little bit more because the amount of change can be too much for people.
[00:34:43] Dan: And you've gotta bring people with you. It, it's. I think the fascinating thing that, and, and Kerry mentioned this is. Is that exact piece, which is you want to bring some value, you wanna bring new things, and, and actually very often you are coming in with, you have some things that have worked elsewhere.
[00:35:00] Dan: You, you want to sort of bring these and maybe up the level and you can really help people to do that. However, are they appropriate for that new place? You can't just lift and shift. And that's where it comes to really listening to the. To the people in your team to understand that and, and gaining their trust, but trusting them to, to guide you to some extent.
[00:35:20] Dan: But I think that's a really hard tension, because you do want to create that impact. But, but at the same time, there are things that aren't going to fit.
[00:35:27] Pia: And I think it's also worth remembering that the experience is new to you as the person coming in, but it may not be new to the team that is there because they may have gone through this and they're just seeing a repetitive cycle of it. Here comes another young gun or gun it. And here they are for two years and we can chart exactly what happens over that period of time.
[00:35:50] Pia: I mean it's, you know, I think then, you know, you can be, they, they may know exactly how to play the system and play you and in some cultures I'm sure that's the same. You think you've got a lot of deference and in actual fact, you haven't really got buy-in at all.
[00:36:06] Pia: So I think, you know, something that Kevin talked about, he said he really spent a lot of time building genuine and open relationships with his team. So he really did invest to get to know them. And I think as in with anyone that's gonna have a payoff, you're gonna have a better idea. And the more that you give, the more that you get out of that.
[00:36:26] Dan: Yeah. And I, and you end up the, the, the key is to do as much as you can do things with or not to. I think that is the danger, particularly if you've been set up to sort of go in there and, you know, right. You, you are, you are the, you've gotta go in and change this country that change this, this place.
[00:36:42] Dan: Then it, it sets a strange dynamic that can be quite divisive actually. You gotta be quite careful that what occurs to me is that this is a great example of where. the assignee can use the three Cs. So clarity, climate, and competence. So both of themselves, it's worth thinking about their own goals and their own, how they're creating their own climate and what skills and behaviors they need.
[00:37:05] Dan: So really thinking about them as an individual. A good example is I think a lot of these, we were told that a lot of these assignments fail because of the spouse. They sort of support the at home, um, person or the other person working or looking for work, but your, your spouse and not, and obviously Kevin had learned, I think he'd hinted from a previous thing that he'd first went to speak to his husband about this.
[00:37:27] Dan: So, um, that's really important. But also then using the three Cs for the team itself again, so what, how do we create the conditions, um, for success in this team? So I think it's a, that would be a really useful tool to sort of keep all these things in balance.
[00:37:40] Dan: But that is it for this episode. We Not Me is supported by Squadify. Squadify is the complete system for helping your teams to connect and perform. You can find show notes where you are listening and also at squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:38:02] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.