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Two deranged lawyers talking about our deranged obsessions.
Raven Sinner (00:01)
Thanks for watching!
Pisha (00:27)
Hello, you deranged derangers out there. Thank you for joining us again at Deranged De Jure, a podcast featuring your two favorite deranged lawyers discussing their deranged obsessions.
I am Pisha. I am here with my co-host.
Raven (00:43)
Raven, as you can tell. In case anyone was confused as to which one of us was which, I thought I would make it a little bit easier. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, and for the people who are just listening and aren't on our video Spotify, which you should probably get in on, Pisha was nice enough to find me the coolest hat in the world. And so I am wearing a black hat with white.
Pisha (00:45)
In case you can't.
Right, and the spelling. Now they know how to spell it too.
Raven (01:07)
bluttering that says Raven on it.
Pisha (01:09)
It was amazing. It was an amazing find. Thrifting, I tell you what. But it was brand new. That's what was kind of cool about it. Like it had a price tag on it for $65, which I left on to make you think that I spent that much money.
Raven (01:22)
I definitely did and I feel so bad about that. Okay, I guess I will. I can't find a hat that says Pisha, that's the only problem.
Pisha (01:26)
Well, you just gotta pay me back, I guess. Okay.
It's a very rare name. I'm pretty sure. I thought I made it up, but apparently our Italian friend says that it means little cat piss in Italian. So I did not intend that meaning when I made it up, when I was a toddler. I just didn't have teeth and I couldn't say my real name. So that's one fun little anecdote. But yeah, we are here wrapping up this month.
Raven (01:36)
Yeah.
Oh. Hahaha.
Yeah, there you go.
Pisha (02:00)
a month on the progression of right-wing extremism from Ruby Ridge to January 6th. Last week we covered the Oklahoma City bombing, before that it was Waco, and before that it was Ruby Ridge. So today it's kind of all culminated in the January 6th insurrection, and that's what we're here talking about. So, I'm gonna go back a little further
than Ruby Ridge, just so that we get a little bit of a feel for how we got here. Right-wing extremism in the USA, how did it start and how did it get to where we are? And so basically it started in the Reconstruction era, shortly following the Civil War, a period of time meant to reconstruct society and build it with Black people involved. So.
During this time, white terrorism was perpetrated against newly freed black slaves. And this was the birth of the KKK during the reconstruction era. So in the civil rights era
following Brown v. Board of Education decision, the KKK waged a campaign of terror against blacks, Jews, civil rights activists, everyone.
basically, who wasn't white Christian males. And they were responsible for the assassinations of many prominent leaders of the movement and approximately 130 bombings throughout the South between 1956 and 1963. That's a lot of bombings in a very short period of time.
Raven (03:28)
I don't think that those are in our history books and I can't imagine why.
Pisha (03:32)
I can't imagine why something about critical race theory. I don't know. But progressing into the 1980s, you had talked about this briefly, I think during Ruby Ridge, the Posse Comentatus group and our boy Gordon Call. So during the 80s, 75 right wing extremists were prosecuted for six attacks within the US. And in 1983, our boy Gordon Call killed those two US marshals.
Raven (03:35)
Mmm, yum.
Mm-hmm. Hehehehe.
Pisha (04:02)
Also that year, the white nationalist revolutionary group, the order, also known as the Bruders Schweigen or the silent brotherhood. Um, they
Raven (04:14)
Is, does that mean silent in German?
Pisha (04:17)
Um, I thought it meant pregnant, which I'm kind of, yeah. Schweig, Schweiger, Schweigen. I thought it was Schwieger. I don't know, something like that. But maybe it does mean silent and not pregnant because the pregnant brotherhood, I don't think they're fighting on the right side. I don't know.
Raven (04:22)
That's even funnier. I would love it if that's what it would actually mean.
We'll look it up. Someone will tell us.
No, I love that.
I don't know. I'm just gonna say that it is and not look it up because I want it.
Pisha (04:45)
Yeah, the pregnant brothers. So, so the pregnant brothers robbed all kinds of banks and armored cars as well as a sex shop. They bombed a theater and a synagogue and murdered radio talk show host Allen Berg. Yay. Yeah, they'd use I know poor Allen. He was a very prominent Jewish. I would say he was one of the big yeah outspoken like beginnings of like talk radio.
Raven (05:02)
Oh, poor Alan.
and outspoken.
Pisha (05:14)
You know, the his like he was one of the big guys. So that was tragic. Then of course, in 1992, we had Ruby Ridge, which I'm not calling domestic terrorism, but it's definitely something within the right wing extremism, you know, realm that's used to kind of propel their movement forward. So then of course, there's 1993, we got Waco, 1995, we've got the Oklahoma City bombing. We talked about all of these.
Raven (05:14)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (05:43)
And in 96 through 98, there was a gentleman named Eric Rudolph who bombed the Olympic Park, if you'll remember, and also a bunch of abortion clinics. So moving on to post-911, according to a report published by the Center for Strategic and International Studies, as of 2020, right-wing terrorism accounted for the majority of terrorist attacks and plots in the
Raven (05:50)
Hmm.
Pisha (06:09)
As of June, 2023, the New America Foundation placed the number killed in terrorist attacks in the United States since September 11th as follows. 130 killed in far right attacks, 107 killed in jihadist attacks, 17 killed in ideological misogyny or incel attacks.
12 killed in black separatist, nationalist and supremacist attacks and one killed in far left attacks. So yeah, it's pretty interesting. So also a core Yeah, they killed him with non-GMO baby corn, I don't know. Yeah. So also according to a 2017 government accountability office report 73% of violent extremist incidents that resulted in deaths since 9-11
Raven (06:37)
Hmm.
Would they kill them with like gluten-free bread or something? There it is. Yeah.
Pisha (07:00)
were caused by right-wing extremist groups, while only radical Islamist extremists were responsible for 27%. And so it's just, I wanted to read this one statistic. I know I've been kind of statistic heavy right now, but this one just, it shocked me. The total number of deaths which were caused by each group was about the same, but 41% of the deaths which were attributable to radical...
Islamists occurred in one single event, the 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting in which 49 people were killed by lone gunmen. And again, no deaths were during this time 2016 were attributed to left-wing terrorist groups. So, we've got growing hatred and xenophobia building post 9-11 and enters Donald fucking Trump.
Raven (07:38)
Wow.
Pisha (07:56)
and the Unite the Right 2017 to now. The number of terrorist attacks by far-right perpetrators rose over the past decade, and it more than quadrupled between 2016 and 2017. That one year alone, that was the year Donald Trump was elected, if you'll remember.
but as of 2023, according to New America's tally, 133 people have been killed in right-wing extremist terrorist attacks since 9-11. That's quite a bit of people. That's quite a lot of Americans being targeted by people who call themselves patriots and lovers of America. So.
Raven (08:32)
There's nothing more patriotic than killing other Americans.
Pisha (08:36)
Right, yeah. So you take it from here. Tell us more about how Trump incited January 6.
Raven (08:43)
Yeah, well, I mean, so first off, some of the things that you were talking about, we were hitting on a little bit during the Oklahoma City bombing. And I wanted to just kind of point that out as well, that there was actually a report that, oh, I do not remember which agency did it, but which outlined all of these attacks that these right-wing extremists were perpetrating on other Americans during this time, and it was quickly shut down. So Rush Limbaugh...
probably Alex Jones, those types of people came out in full force and just completely decimated this guy based on actual statistics. I mean, he was few in facts and they didn't like those facts, so that's why it got shut down. Anyway, just pointing that out. But in any case, so this was all ramping up between 2016 and 2020. So
Donald Trump was actually the exception to the rule, which it was becoming, that during Democratic presidencies, right-wing extremism went on the rise, and during
Republican presidencies, it went on the decline. but when Donald Trump came into office, a lot of people were galvanized towards him and galvanized towards his very hateful rhetoric.
and violent rhetoric. And so there was a rise in hate crimes during his presidency, and then it ended up culminating into
And during 2020, there was a lot of things going on. I don't know if you heard. So, there was a, I don't even remember this, but apparently there was like a global pandemic. And yeah.
Pisha (10:21)
What happened? I don't even know!
Huh? I heard that never really existed. Just kidding.
Raven (10:33)
Yeah, well, if you're on Alex Jones's side of things, you probably believe that. I mean, you do believe that. So, yeah. Nice.
Pisha (10:42)
Oh yeah, me and Dark Brandon over here. I've got my Dark Brandon mug. We faked COVID so that we could win the election.
Raven (10:48)
You did. It worked, apparently.
Pisha (10:54)
How's that one made it work? Trump was so bad. I know, but.
Raven (10:58)
No, I'm just joking. But no, it's not what it made it work. Yeah, so the pandemic did a whole bunch of things in the country. It divided us even greater and isolated people a whole lot and left a lot of people to spend their time online. So you saw a rise in a whole new level of conspiracy theorists, including QAnon, which was already...
in the works. I mean, it was around, but it really took hold during COVID. And so with Donald Trump and the election, things just kind of became more and more heated.
is because they would go on to these forums and go on to 4chan, 8chan, all of these smaller websites where it was originally kind of like a game and so they would they would try and like piece together the
the puzzle that they thought that Donald Trump was laying out for them. So they thought that Q was someone higher up in somewhere, security, who knows? I don't know. It's so bonkers to me, it's really hard to talk about it. But they think that Donald Trump is connected to Q and that he's on this secret mission to stop this.
cabal and that there's all of this messaging. And so what he says ultimately becomes
the rule of law, I guess, like it just be, people start taking his word very literally and they pay much more heed to everything that he says. They start seeing him kind of as a God in other words. And so as this happens, Donald Trump is already starting to lay the seed and starting to say, I'm not going to concede the election because the only way that the election, that I lose the election is by
the vote being rigged. So he's sowing that seed with his base, with the QAnon people, and people are starting to buy more and more into it. And it's insane because there's been this peaceful transition of power that we've held so sacrosanct for so long. And that just completely unraveled when you had this cult leader who came in and said, well, now that's not a thing. Now I'm not gonna concede. And so...
During COVID, there were different methods that states would try and put in place in order to
voter turnout. So one of the things they did was they increased absentee ballots, which really helped with people being able to not have to go in and vote in person because of COVID concerns.
And so the problem with that is that those absentee ballots get counted last. And so when we were heading into the election, Trump was actually ahead. And so he started to declare himself as the winner of the 2020 election, knowing that all of these absentee ballots were going to come in later. And the, the Democrats kind of knew what they were doing too, because
they knew that the people who were going to use absentee ballots, they tend to in general be more
But then also during COVID, they believe in COVID. And so they're going to vote by absentee ballot as well.
as the votes start rolling in, Trump gets even more heated and takes to Twitter as he does.
And nobody's stopping him from saying these insane things about voter fraud. Voter fraud has already been part of the narrative for Republicans for many years at this point, but has really taken hold with them, especially in 2020, where they see that as an opportunity to stay in power. And so you have even other Republican
leaders throughout the country who have been beholden to Trump this entire time, repeating the same lies because they are lies. And so everyone knew that there was no voter fraud. There's been no evidence of voter fraud. Anybody who says that there's evidence of voter fraud uses these anecdotes that don't even make sense about ballots being thrown into dumpsters and things like that. But
No actual evidence that has ever actually happened.
Pisha (15:10)
Well, and I want to say like the reported incidences of actual voter fraud have been committed by people voting for Trump. Like, like all the times they showed any sort of fraud, it was some guy voting for Trump for his dead mother.
Raven (15:19)
They were, yes.
Pisha (15:27)
or whatever, all the shit they were saying the Democrats were doing were basically what they were doing and they got caught for. So I'm inclined to believe that the people who got caught are guilty and not the people that the guilty people are accusing. Yeah. Yeah, right? I just kind of feel like you guys are doing it and you don't get to say afterwards, oh, no, you guys are doing, it's you.
Raven (15:27)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
There's a phrase for that. Whoever smelt it, dealt it.
No, you! Well, I mean, it's funny you say it. It's a common theme. And I guess, I don't know what you call it, like a logical fallacy that is implemented a lot on the right, because you also have the people who, as we'll get into with January 6th, were blaming it on Antifa, which made absolutely no sense whatsoever. So, mm-hmm.
Pisha (16:12)
It's laughable. Like I just, I want someone to tell me who the leader of Antifa is so that I can call them and be like, hey, where's my app? Can I join? Can I apply?
Raven (16:20)
Can I join? Yeah. I mean, if there was an Antifa, I think we would both be part of it. So that's how you know there's not a real.
Pisha (16:30)
But at the very least we'd know about it. Like it's just, there's no way we wouldn't be able to name off the leaders the same way we can for the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers and all these right wing groups.
Raven (16:30)
No. Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
Exactly, exactly. So as the voting continued, the supporters coalesced around the idea that forceful protests and violent direct action were necessary to stop the counting of fraudulent ballots and thereby to prevent Biden from taking office. There was a Facebook group that called itself Stop the Steal, which was created on November 4th, had about 320-ish thousand members and it was shut down because of Facebook's
community standards. So violated community standards because of their, resorting to violence. And the stop the steal enthusiasts then migrated to other social media platforms. including, I think parlor was still around. I don't even know if Parler's been around now, but, um, oh, great. I can't wait.
Pisha (17:07)
Yeah.
Parlor, yeah.
Well, we'll get into that. Don't worry. I got you, girl. Just wait until the end of this episode.
Raven (17:27)
Okay, great. I'm so excited. And then what I don't even know if true, but all the other ones, like Twitter was the big one, for sure. But there's, you know, there's 4chan, there's all the other ones that we'll talk about a little later. So as that happened, you know, as there's more and more unrest, then, you know, the states are starting to become involved as well. And so the electors from each of their each state, then certified their states votes for Biden.
with the victory of 306 electoral votes to 232. And so when that happened, Trump and his allies and the Stop the Steal movement turned their attention to the last step before Biden would become inaugurated. And that is the Congress's certification of the election, which was to happen on January 6th, which is a date that's fixed in federal law. So...
A lot of people said at the time that Trump, and I actually think he tweeted this. I don't remember the tweet, but I feel like I remember that there was a tweet where he talked about how he believed that Mike Pence could basically like override the election, which sounds so insane. But yeah, exactly. I just say, nah, I know everything.
Pisha (18:37)
Yeah, just refuse to do your duty, Pence. Yeah, just refuse. That's all you have to do. Nah.
Raven (18:46)
Single elected official is certifying their results, but I'm the vice president. I know better than all of y'all. So anyway,
so there's all of this talk now about January 6th among the people in these Stop the Steal movements that are leading up to January 6th.
Pisha (19:08)
Yeah, and I mean, social media was a real driving force. You're gonna talk about how these groups and coordinating parties used social media to their advantage, but first, let's talk a little bit about the really big participants in the planning of the attack. Of course, we've talked about Donald Trump. He has done certain things that indicate that he was...
maybe not a planning the attack, but he wasn't stopping it. And he knew about it, he knew it was being planned and he wasn't stopping it. So I will get in, yeah, I mean, he incited it. That's what it is, but we can't call it that yet until the special prosecutor. What's he called? Special counsel? Whatever his name is. Yeah, okay.
Raven (19:44)
I'm not getting it really, but yeah.
Night y'all.
We'll get there.
I think special prosecutor. I think you're right. Mm-hmm.
Pisha (20:04)
So, like you said, social media was this driving force for January 6th. All these far-right groups were planning this big event to basically storm the Capitol and overturn a democratic election. Probably the most prominent group was the Oath Keepers.
They are an American far right anti-government militia whose leaders have been convicted of violently opposing the government of the United States, including the transfer of presidential power as prescribed by the United States Constitution. It was incorporated in 2009 by founder Elmer Stewart, Stewart Rhodes. Okay, I'm gonna say that again.
Raven (20:44)
But if I had Elmer as a name, I might start some right wing, like, fanatic group too. Elmer's a terrible name.
Pisha (20:50)
I might as well, right? Or like a glue company. I would start a glue company or a far right group. So anyways, right? So Elmer Stewart Rhodes, he was a lawyer and a former paratrooper. On November 5th, 2020, two days after the presidential election, leaders of the Oath Keepers began communicating about a quote unquote civil war. These were through email communications, electronic communications. They really weren't.
Raven (20:54)
Yeah, that's, yeah. Exactly. Those are your choices in life.
Pisha (21:18)
bright, like cell phones, they weren't smart about communicating. On November 9th, the leaders held an online members only video conference in which leader Stuart Rhodes outlined a plan to stop the transfer of power, including preparations for using force. So our next group is the proud boys, the dapper little gentlemen who are just so proud of themselves.
I hate them so much, sorry. And what a stupid, like, emasculating name to give yourself, like, blah. Anyways, so they're an exclusively male, North American, far-right, neo-fascist, militant organization that promotes and engages in political violence. On December 12th,
Raven (21:47)
I know, it's so silly too. What a stupid name.
Seriously, yep.
Pisha (22:08)
About 200 members of the Proud Boys joined a march near Freedom Plaza and the Trump International Hotel while dressed in combat fatigues and ballistic vests and reportedly carrying helmets. I don't know why reportedly carrying helmets is important. I think guns would be more relevant, but whatever. Yeah, I guess you could hurt someone with a helmet. In scuffles between protesters and counter protesters, four people were stabbed and at least 23 people were arrested.
Raven (22:26)
Probably.
Pisha (22:34)
On December 19th, Oath Keepers leader Kelly Maggs placed a call to Proud Boys leader Enrique Tarrio. On December 20th, the Proud, this is basically when they got together and started their joint efforts together. It kind of initially started as an Oath Keeper thing, and then the Proud Boys, they went to the Proud Boys for assistance. So on December 20th, the Proud Boys leadership handpicked members.
Raven (22:50)
Hmm.
Pisha (23:01)
to form a new chapter called the Ministry of Self Defense, which would be in charge of the National Rally Planning, or January 6th. And then finally, on January 3rd and 4th, the Proud Boys leadership explicitly discussed, quote unquote, storming the Capitol. So these two groups were very active in organizing this riot. In addition, they were able to sweep in the QAnon fucks that you were talking about.
Raven (23:29)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (23:30)
You did a pretty good job, but just to kind of sum it up, QAnon is an American political conspiracy theory and political movement that originated in the American far right political sphere in 2017. And it centers on fabricated claims made by an anonymous individual or individuals known as Q. I think they've identified him as some like nerd, idiot, like.
Raven (23:52)
It's always someone different. Like, I don't know that they still know who it is. Like, I think it's just...
Pisha (23:59)
I think they narrowed it down to like three guys and they were doing it together maybe.
Raven (24:02)
But they've, it's been different people along the way. Like, yeah, and it's stupid because there's nothing saying that person is Q, they just decide that it is. And then that person was like, I guess I'm Q now. So it's just, it's not real. It's just stupid.
Pisha (24:07)
Okay
Right.
Yeah, yeah, it's not real at all. And like you said, their core belief is that a cabal of satanic, cannibalistic child molesters who are also exclusively democratic voters are operating a global child sex trafficking ring that conspired against Donald Trump. Some of the more famous QAnon supporters, the QAnon shaman, very racist.
Raven (24:43)
Hm. Ahem.
Pisha (24:46)
white guy wearing native garb, and then also Ashley Babbitt, who we'll talk about later in the storming of the Capitol. So to wrap it all up in a nice cute little bow, the other people who were involved in participating and planning the attack were white supremacists, neo-Nazis, neo-Confederates, all kinds, just random.
Raven (24:55)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (25:11)
They're so fractured into so many small little groups, but they're all far right. They're all white supremacists. They're all neo-Nazis and they're all neo-Confederates for the most part. And members of these groups detailed their actions and claimed they were the beginning of the start of a white revolution in the United States. I want to point out that during this riot, this was the first time in U.S. history
that a Confederate battle flag was displayed inside the Capitol building. I know, I know, it's disgusting. Like these fucking rubes, like they don't even know what they're fucking doing and they come in there with a Confederate treasonous flag and it's like, you were the assholes to do that, really? It's just annoying to me. Right.
Raven (25:46)
So insane to me, yeah.
Right.
No.
Yeah, of course. Right, well, and you're like, patriots, really? Like, how do you call yourself a patriot when you're flying a rebel flag? I'm mad, too.
Pisha (26:11)
Right, exactly. So I'm mad about it. It's annoying. But yeah, I mean, all these groups, I mean, they had one thing in common. It was that they were all using social media to coordinate. Can you talk a little bit more to that?
Raven (26:26)
Yeah, no, completely. I mean, I kind of alluded to it just before this, but social media played an enormous role in the planning of January 6th and the reason why it became such a big thing. So, but the problem is, part of the problem, I guess, is that
it was all things were said and done, Congress really didn't like...
hone in on the social media aspect of it. Like they threw away, I think it was 123 pages, 122 or 123 pages of their report dealing with social media. And I just don't know that Congress knows how to deal with social media. So they try to ban
there. So in any case, Congress doesn't stop there with social media. Back to January 6th. And so the investigators found that tech platforms, especially Twitter, failed to heed their own employees' warnings about violent rhetoric on their platforms and actually bent the rules to avoid penalizing conservatives, especially then President Trump.
So they didn't want to come out and like look like, because they were being accused of this at the time as well, they didn't want to look like, oh, we're just focusing on conservatives when conservatives were the ones at the time who were expressing all of this like violent rhetoric. And so, but they were worried about reprisals as a result, especially when he was president, which is so tyrannical, it's insane. So...
Then the draft report also details how most of the platforms did not take dramatic steps to rein in extremist content until after the attack on the Capitol despite clear red flags. So also at the time, Elon Musk had taken over Twitter and he had laid off most of the team that reviewed tweets for abusive and inaccurate content and then restored several prominent accounts including Trump's.
So, and Michael Flynn, who was like, just this fireball spewing all kinds of hatred. So, in the days before January 6th, media reports documented Trump's call on Twitter for people to rally in Washington. One of the tweets was, it'll be wild. And then there was growing talks of guns and potential violence on these sites, including Telegram,
Pisha (28:22)
AHHH
Raven (28:46)
And one that I don't know of the Donald dot win, which is just so fucking Donald Trump. I fucking hate it. I must have been the win. this is all part of the, it's called, they're called team purple. They're the
Pisha (28:54)
It feels like it was made by a bot. Like, the Donald dot win.
Raven (29:06)
the congressional, investigation.
of January 6th and their memo detailed also how the actions of roughly 15 social networks played a significant role in the attacks. It described how platforms like Facebook and Twitter and YouTube and Twitch and also even smaller as I was talking about fringe networks like Parler, Gab, I don't even know what that one is, and 4chan. So these served as megaphones for those who were seeking to stoke division and organize an insurrection.
And so those are the ones that the oath keepers that, like QAnon was obviously all over the internet.
And so they were rallying around that. And so everybody was, I mean, doing what social media is aimed to do, which is to create, networking about a specific event that was going to happen on January 6th. And people were buying their plane tickets. I mean, all of this, the craziest thing about all of this is that, I mean, first of all, it was extremely poorly organized to begin with.
before January 16th even happened. But I mean, you have to be somewhat grateful that idiots were organizing it because they also went on to post all their shit on social media. And we'll talk a little bit more about some of my favorite things that happened after the insurrection. But until then, why don't we talk about what happened?
Pisha (30:27)
Yeah, like, I mean, you said social media gave an outlet to get the message out to seemingly normal people. I say seemingly normal because they're crazy. They're fucking crazy. They're not normal at
all. But people who weren't affiliated with these far right-wing groups, they were able to sweep in all these Trump supporters who were unaffiliated through the use of social media. So
they continued to use social media as the attack went on. So here's how it happened. It started at 9 a.m. That's when the Trump rally, the stop the steal rally began. I think Trump made a couple of speeches saying we got to fight, we got to fight like our country depends on it and, you know, storm down. I don't know if he used the word storm, but he's used a lot of very hateful, very strong rhetoric that.
incited these crowds to start marching towards the Capitol. However, the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers were already planning while the rally was still going on. At 10 a.m., about 100 Proud Boys gathered at the Washington Monument, and at 10 30, they departed for the Capitol. By 11 52, they arrive at the Capitol and are able to do several walk-arounds, looking for building accesses
weaknesses. Like the fact that they had all this time and that security was just able to watch them walking around scoping the place out. It blows my mind.
Raven (31:58)
Right. Well, and were there a couple of pipe bombs too that were found like before any of this happened? Yeah.
Pisha (32:03)
Yeah. Well, okay. So there were bombs found, I think, on January 5th, the day before. Also, they were also found the same day of. There were two found. We'll talk about those in a little bit because they were used as a tactic to distract police from what was going on at the Capitol. This was one of the better planned, like, decoy operations by the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers because what they did was...
Raven (32:10)
Right, that's right, yeah.
Pisha (32:31)
They continued this walk around, they scoped the Capitol for the best access points, and then they started amassing the crowd. And so by 12.30 p.m., the crowd around the Capitol had grown to about 300 people. At 12.50 p.m., the oath keepers leave the rally, change into their military gear, and march to the Capitol. So as the oath keepers are leaving the rally,
The first pipe bomb you were talking about was found outside the Republican National Committee. This was at around 1245 PM. At 1 15 PM, a pipe bomb, a second one is found outside the Democratic National Convention. I said committee, didn't I? I meant convention, but whatever. Everyone knows what I mean. It's largely, I think, agreed on by everyone.
Raven (33:18)
Uh, yeah, it's okay.
Pisha (33:27)
including the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys, that these bombs were placed for the purpose of attracting police away from the Capitol. Which they didn't really have to do, as we'll learn later, because there weren't that many police there. So tell us about how they were able to breach the Capitol though, because at this point we've got a huge crowd of about, like, I think three to five hundred people, and it keeps building.
Raven (33:54)
Yeah, no, I mean because Trump is telling people to go to the Capitol, right? So in addition to the people who are already planning on doing it, which is such a coincidence. I don't know how that happened
So there's more and more people who are going to the Capitol and it's becoming more and more violent and you know, they're pushing against the barricades and so and I mean you see the videos of these barricades and they're just like
I mean, like hip height barricades. They're not like anything that you could, they're just pushing against them. And there's like, I don't know what, like maybe five, people on the other side, officers on the other side to trying to stop them. So they're up against, very few people and it's becoming more and more protesters who are able to eventually breach. So.
In a tipping point moment, a man who is later identified as Ryan Samsel approached Joe Biggs and talked with him, even embracing him. Samsel later told the FBI that Biggs encouraged him to push at the barricades that when he hesitated, the proud boys leader flashed a gun, questioned his manhood, and repeated the demand to move up front and challenge the police. So they threw the bike racks and the barricades at an officer who fell.
She hit her head and she was knocked
Pisha (35:12)
her. There was a trample risk. There was like all kinds of things that could have happened to her and I'm just so grateful she was okay.
Raven (35:14)
Yeah.
Yeah, completely. One that was saved. So at around one, the crowd then reaches the second police
and they blocked the west tunnel where there was a this battle between the rioters and the law enforcement who were involved there. So
Pisha (35:36)
I just want to clarify that it was the rioters who were spraying the police with the chemical .. No, because I want to point out that it wasn't the police provoking anything. In fact, it didn't look like the police did much to protect themselves. We'll talk later, but only one shot was fired in this whole thing.
Raven (35:41)
Oh, sorry.
Mm-hmm. Right. Well, especially in the early, like early hours, like, I mean, we're still talking, like, I don't think that they like really knew what was going on and they're calling for reinforcement to some degree. And you're right. And I think like there was pepper spray happening, but that's later. And so they're on their heels at that point.
Pisha (36:01)
Right.
Right. And they were, and so they were attacking the police. I like, they were not
Raven (36:16)
because that's right. Like they were antagonizing them and they were definitely trying to breach, the police line. So, you know, they don't tend to be the ones that are the, the fuck the police side of things, but they were that day. That's for sure.
around 1.12 p.m. reinforcements from the Metro PD of D.C. equipped with crowd controlled gear arrived at the Lower West Terrace. From 1.25 to 1.28, three different groups of Proud Boy leaders were recorded marching in stack formations away from the newly enforced police line.
MPD declared a riot and takes down the barricades and lets people onto the grounds.
Pisha (37:00)
Yeah, and I think it was just because once the riots declared for the safety for the officers and for the rioters, they had to take down the barricades. So I think that's what that was about. Yeah, and so, yeah, it wasn't until around 2 p.m. that the rioters actually reached the doors and the windows of the Capitol building. They were like scaling the walls. They were using scaffolding that was up for restoration purpose.
Raven (37:09)
Yeah, I think that makes sense.
Do not creation. Yep.
Pisha (37:27)
Yeah, yeah. Oh, it was the inauguration. That's right. Not restoration. And so like, they were prepping the Capitol for the inauguration and they had all of these scaffoldings. They used one of the scaffoldings to put up a noose for the obvious threat to members of Congress. And so it wasn't until two though that they actually made it to the doors of the Capitol building. A stolen police
Raven (37:41)
Oof.
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (37:55)
random tools were used to break open the glass windows. At 2.13 p.m., the rioters actually entered the Capitol building through the broken doors and windows. And also around this time, Vice President Mike Pence and Congress begins evacuating. They start getting Speaker Pelosi, some of the more prominent figures out first. And I think there were some members of Congress who were, yeah, they were locked up in one of the galleries. And it-
Raven (38:18)
Who were left? They were.
Pisha (38:23)
Yeah, and it took forever to get them out. So that was terrifying. But they did get out. Luckily, no members of Congress were assassinated that day. However, I have no doubt that if they were found, they would have been assassinated by these people. And so at 215, Congress calls recess and doors to the chamber are locked. Capital staff were ordered to shelter in place. Could you imagine how terrifying it was for all those staffers in these?
Raven (38:36)
Yeah.
Oh my god.
Pisha (38:50)
I heard stories about staffers under desks. They could hear the people banging on the doors and praying loudly for God to remove Satan and evil from Congress.
There was one woman who actually said she refused to call or text her parents that she loved them because she knew she wasn't ready to admit that her life was in danger. And she just broke down. It was very hard to watch. A lot of these people have PTSD from this event. So terrifying, terrifying. Yeah, so.
Raven (39:16)
Mm-hmm.
Oh yeah, absolutely they would. Yeah, it's horrifying. Yeah, completely.
Pisha (39:28)
At 2.38 p.m., the Capitol rotunda doors were breached by oath keepers. And around 2.44 p.m., reports of shots fired in the Capitol. This is when Ashley Babbitt, the QAnon crazy, attempted to get through a broken glass window into the rotunda that had been barricaded with furniture behind it, and there were armed security. I think it was like,
capital security who were saying, do not come through. You cannot come through. Don't come through. We're going to shoot you. And I was watching this live And so this was wild for me to watch because I remember it was so chaotic. I was watching the news mix. So I had on MSNBC, CNN, Fox News, and I think Bloomberg's the other one.
and they were all covering different angles of this thing. And I remember on one of them, when they were wheeling Ashley Babbitt out, and I like locked eyes with her. And I was like, that's a dead body. Like that woman is not alive. Her shirt was cut off. There was blood. Like they were actively engaging in CPR and resuscitation and stuff. And I was like, wow, I can't believe I just saw that on television. I'm sure you can't find that anymore.
Raven (40:33)
Oh my god. No.
Mm.
No.
Pisha (40:49)
Um, but it was crazy to see at the time she was shot. She was shot once in the chest while she attempted to enter. The guy gave a warning. She didn't listen. He shot her. And so, eventually they got into the chambers, the rotunda. They, you know, desecrated a sacred place of government, I guess, or democracy. They shat.
on Nancy Pelosi's desk, they caused all kinds, you'll talk more about the damage that was caused, but there were all kinds of crazy shit that once they were inside, they stole, they caused damage, property damage, they hunted members of Congress in attempts to execute them. And it was trashed, the place was completely fucking trashed. So that's...
Raven (41:23)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (41:41)
That's how they got in. And it didn't end until a combined force of the Capitol police and the DC Metro police began this joint operation to clear the Capitol. By 2.49 PM, the crypt was cleared. By 2.57 PM, the speaker's lobby was cleared. And at 3.15, MPD in riot gear this time.
began clearing the rotunda, and most rioters were removed to the West Plaza by 3.40 PM. At 4.22 PM, Trump was finally convinced to issue a video message to his supporters on social media, finally telling them to quote unquote, go home. Yeah, we love you very much. You're so special.
Raven (42:23)
We love you very much. You're very special people.
Oh, yeah. And like, Ivanka, well, and I think those around him were trying to convince him to do this for a long time. Kevin McCarthy had been calling him like off the hook. And he just was, he was glued to the TV and he liked what he saw. And that's the truth. So.
Pisha (42:44)
Yep, exactly. Well, and it sounds like he went to National Guard prior to the riots, like I think in the days before, and said to the National Guard, I want you to send 155,000 troops to protect my people and me, not protect the Capitol. And so...
Raven (42:55)
Hmm?
Oh my god.
Pisha (43:12)
He was already making efforts to thwart the government's ability to stop, or the military's ability to stop this riot. And so it wasn't until 5.08 p.m. that the D.C. National Guard was dispatched to the Capitol, and they arrived at 5.20. The grounds were cleared of all rioters around 6 p.m. And at 8.06 p.m., Pence called the Senate back into session.
At 9 p.m. Pelosi did the same thing in the House. And then after debating and voting down two objections, Congress voted to confirm Biden's electoral college win at 3.24 a.m. I, ugh, it was just, it was such a freaking mess. I remember turning it off at like one in the morning and I was like, I just, I can't listen to these idiots. There were still people objecting to the certification after the fucking riot.
Raven (43:54)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Pisha (44:07)
Like these people did not give a fuck about America. They did not give a fuck about democracy and freedom and free elections. So.
Raven (44:16)
Well, and you know, it's kind of like one of those moments where you think people are going to rally around the flag like they did during 9-11, and that's not what happened at all.
Pisha (44:24)
Right, because we've created a two-party system where the other is the enemy, not to be worked with and compromised with. So January 7th, Trump concedes? I say that with three question marks because it's arguable that the message wasn't a concession, but merely an implied one. It was very weird. So that's how this...
Raven (44:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Hehehehe
Was this a tweet or was this a video? I don't even remember.
Pisha (44:52)
I can't, I think it was a video. I feel like it was a video message, but maybe it was a tweet. I don't know, but it was just very, it wasn't a convincing concession because I think the last sentence was like, the election was stolen from me. So it just didn't really work very well. So that's how the attack happened. That's how they breached.
Raven (44:54)
Okay.
No.
Hehehe
Pisha (45:16)
one of our sacred institutions of American democracy and all kinds of shit resulted.
Raven (45:20)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I mean, you know, apart from like the property damage, I mean, people were killed. You mentioned Ashley Babbitt, who is a 35 year old Air Force veteran who was shot fatally by a Lieutenant Michael LeRoy Bird, and then Brian Sicknick, who was a 42 year old responding Capitol Police officer who was pepper sprayed, and then went through two strokes the next day after which he was put on life support and died.
And the D.C. chief medical examiner did say that all that transpired played a role in his condition. And then there was Roseanne Boyland, who actually there's a podcast about her, who was—which this is one of the things that we didn't mention, and this hasn't been part of this whole thing. But a lot of the QAnon people and a lot of these people who went to the Capitol voted for Obama.
which is like the most bizarre thing to me. So she was an Obama voter who turned Q Anon She died of amphetamine overdose during the attack, but was also trampled. And so that was a contributing factor. But she was actually, she was in rehab and like was sober. And so her mom was convinced that she
was not doing drugs, so this was just a result of her prescription medications. So, unclear.
Pisha (46:44)
But the talks were, yeah, but the Tox report I thought was pretty clear that it was an overdose on meth. And I do want to point out that yes, while most of these QAnon people did vote for Obama, they were also meth addicts. Like so, so a lot of the people storming the Capitol were meth heads and like they're doing so, right. They were successful not only because they were dumb, but because they were actively doing it
Raven (46:59)
That's fair.
on math. It's probably not a great word, successful.
Pisha (47:13)
the attack and like one of them overdosed. It's kind of funny to me. Well.
Raven (47:15)
Right.
Yeah, yeah, to some degree. But she was trampled at the same time. If you listen to the podcast, there is some doubt there about what happened. I mean, I think it's clear from the autopsies that amphetamines were in her system. But the amount wasn't as high as you would think. Anyway, it doesn't matter. She died. And she was trampled. And whether she was trampled or whether it was an amphetamine...
Pisha (47:37)
No.
Raven (47:44)
overdose. She died as a result of January 6. So then there was Kevin Greeson and, Benjamin Phillips, who died from heart attacks. And then there were four officers who responded to the attack who committed suicide, who died by suicide, I should say, in the days and months that followed. That would have been a Capitol Police officer, Howard Charles Liebengood.
Pisha (47:47)
Right.
Raven (48:05)
And then Jeffrey Smith
There it is. Yeah. And Gunter Paul Heshida. So it is.
Pisha (48:08)
Kyle Hendrick, DeFrietog. Yeah, that's a lot of suicides. And I mean, they were able to contribute it to emotional distress related to January 6th. Yeah.
Raven (48:25)
Yeah, yeah, those are all related to because they were in the days and months that followed. And I think that there were some notes that just talked about not being able to Yeah. So
Pisha (48:32)
Confirmed it. Yeah.
can you confirm whether one of the two men who died of natural causes was a guy who accidentally tasered himself in the balls and repeatedly tasered himself in the balls until he gave himself a heart attack?
Raven (48:45)
So, yes.
Yeah, I can't remember which one that one was, but yes, that was one of them. Yep.
Pisha (48:55)
Okay, okay, good. Everyone, someone died from electrocuting his balls to death. Like, to death, he electrocuted him to death through balls.
Raven (49:00)
To death.
I mean, I think it's indicative of the IQ level of the people who are involved here. So, anyway. Mm-hmm.
Pisha (49:08)
Right? Oh my god. Oh wow. Okay. And I mean, as far as property damage goes, there was millions of dollars of damage, right?
Raven (49:19)
Oh, yeah, completely. Yeah. And I, you know, I didn't go too far into the property damage because I think, you know, human lives tend to be more important. But, but yeah, I mean, like they, I mean, obviously, like all of the windows that they, you know, smashed, and they there was like, some historical statues that were destroyed. And like, there was graffiti on like, you know, historical, I don't know.
Pisha (49:27)
Absolutely.
Raven (49:43)
stuff. So it's just like, yeah, I mean, they just desecrated the capital, which is really...
Pisha (49:49)
Yeah, they ran. Yeah, I was just going to say to add to it, like they ransacked congressional offices and destroyed computers, they destroyed.
Raven (49:58)
Mm-hmm. They did. They also, yeah, took some computers too. So there was a little bit of concern about cybersecurity. So.
Pisha (50:01)
Yeah.
Yeah, one of the computers stolen was Nancy Pelosi's and it was stolen by a woman who was with one of those white supremacist groups. Her boyfriend ended up tipping off the FBI because she had told him that she was going to send the computer to a friend of hers in Russia. I wonder if that friend is named Vladimir Putin. But yeah, like there was a huge deal. I think she's serving seven and a half years or three years something.
Raven (50:22)
Oh God.
Poofton!
Dang. Well, well, well.
Pisha (50:35)
Yeah, so don't steal shit from the Capitol. Don't cause damage. I don't know what to say. So, you know, it's interesting though, looking at the Capitol, because we've talked about these three instances where so much loss of life occurred that didn't need to occur because of overzealous military tactics taken by law enforcement. And that's not what happened here. And it makes me think,
Raven (50:42)
Yep, I agree.
Pisha (51:04)
Did we maybe learn something or were we just unprepared? And unfortunately, it sounds like we were just unprepared. The Capitol Police leadership had not planned for a riot or attack. And on January 6th, under orders from leadership, the force deployed without riot gear, shields, batons, or less lethal arms such as sting grenades. The department riot shields had been improperly stored
which made them shatter upon any sort of impact. They were no use to the officers. Hundreds more Capitol police could have been used as well, but they weren't. And so when asked what the Capitol police were doing to stop the riot, I believe it was Maxine Waters who called up the chief. The chief said, we're doing the best we can and then hung up on her.
It wasn't until 2 10 PM that the Capitol Police Board granted the chief permission to formally request appointment of the guard. But as you know, the guard wasn't deployed until almost 5 PM. So in a February, 2021 confidence vote organized by the US Capitol Police Labor Committee, the union representing Capitol Police officers, 92% voted that they had no confidence in leadership. Writing.
Raven (52:23)
Ugh.
Pisha (52:24)
Yeah, they said, our leaders did not properly plan for the protest, nor prepare officers for what they were about to face. This despite the fact they knew days before that the protest had the potential to turn violent. We still have no answers why leadership failed to inform or equip us for what was coming on January 6th. In addition, the Department of Defense refused to send
the National Guard for a long time. We talked about that briefly. And it could have been because Trump told them not to and kind of interfered or obstructed their process, or it could have been because it wasn't a good idea to send the military to shut down this kind of riot. It would absolutely look like a showing of force against protesting Americans.
whether or not their protests, their concerns are
I think that there is an issue with optics sending the National Guard in this instance. Like this was supposedly, and they continue to try to convince us just a protest. And if it was just a protest, then it's probably good we didn't just mow them all down like we did at Ruby Ridge and Waco, because it would just be another
Raven (53:45)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (53:56)
wrong in their ladder of insanity. Like it would just be their next Ruby Ridge. Like remember when we stormed the Capitol and the government sent military to shoot and kill us, like there would have been way more loss of life. And I just think optics wise, it wasn't gonna look good. Like these are people who are already saying fuck the police. And what makes you think that?
Raven (54:19)
doesn't stop them from doing it on the other side though. That's all I'm saying is that the National Guard often like does get brought in. I agree with you that it's a good idea that they didn't come in, but I don't think that the National Guard should be employed and they are when there's Black Lives Matter protests, when there's Palestine protests, those types of things. Those things are happening. So, yeah, I get it. Yeah.
Pisha (54:38)
Like I said, optics. Optics with white American Republican voters who are protesting a democratic election, whether or not their concerns are legitimate. I see that sending a military on that group much more disturbing, I don't know, to them. That's who we need to remember who we're messaging to. We already know.
Raven (54:51)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (55:07)
Like we get how these dynamics work, but they're just going to use any attempt by the government to protect democracy as an attack on them and their beliefs. Because their beliefs are to have a one party authoritarian government. And so I just, I don't know. I just, I think, I think it could have been so much worse if the, they had been deployed. I think optics was a big issue for them.
Raven (55:08)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (55:37)
And because it was around an election and not around conceptual social ideologies, if that makes sense. Does that make sense?
Raven (55:37)
Yeah.
It does, it does. I mean, I agree with you that I think that the National Guard not coming in was a good idea. We'll just leave it at that.
Pisha (55:56)
Yeah, yeah, no, that's fine. I'm trying to understand, to be honest, why they weren't sent. But they're sent. Well, yeah. Well, and I mean, and it is disturbing to me that National Guard is sent to squash all of the left movements. But whenever it comes to being used against the far right movements, it never happens.
Raven (56:01)
Mm-hmm. I think it was Trump, but that's...
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (56:22)
And it's partly because of this issue of how, like any force we use against them is gonna be further justification for their cause. And so I had read something about the refusal to send the guard and I do know that optics was one of the main considerations, but that's the government telling us and we don't believe the government. And I just, I have to believe that because
these officers, they must have learned in some way not to shoot people because they demonstrated that they were perfectly capable to minimize loss of life and deescalate a situation without guns, use of guns. But they haven't been able to show us that in situations involving black people, unarmed black people. So you know, I just...
Raven (57:05)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (57:14)
I don't know what we learned. I think what they learned was these are white people coming after us. We can't shoot them or we'll have serious repercussions to pay. And there's no historical precedence for this. There nothing, yeah, like there's just nothing like this has ever happened. And so you do have to take into consideration with no historical precedence, how could they have prepared for this? This was...
Raven (57:26)
No.
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (57:40)
No one in a million years could have imagined that this would have actually happened, but it did. So with no historical precedence to guide us, I think it just came down to being not prepared. But maybe we can use what we've learned along the way and in our lack of preparation. And now with the creation of historical precedence, what we can do next time.
Raven (57:46)
I did.
Sure, makes sense to me. Yeah. So, as far as what happened to the people who were involved, there were around, like, I think it was like over almost 1,300 people who were charged in and around all 50 states in the District of Columbia. There were 452 defendants who are charged with assaulting, resisting or impeding officers or employees.
and 123 who were charged with using a deadly or dangerous weapon or causing serious bodily injury to an officer. So I should point out here that these are federal charges and the federal police powers are much more limited than state powers. And so some of these might be in state court. So like the assault charges would be in state court, but the charges that I'm
talking out specifically right now are federal charges because they're against federal officers. Then there were approximately 140 police officers who were assaulted on January 6, including 80 from the U.S. Capitol Police and 60 from the Metropolitan Police Department. And 11 were arrested on a series of charges that relate to assaulting a member of the media or destroying their equipment on January 6.
Approximately 1,186 defendants were charged with entering or remaining in a restricted federal building or grounds. Of those, 116 defendants were charged with entering a restricted area with a dangerous or deadly weapon. 71 defendants were charged with destruction of government property.
Pisha (59:27)
I'm sorry.
Raven (59:40)
332 defendants were charged with corruptly obstructing, influencing, or impeding an official proceeding or attempting to do so. And so this is three years out. One thing I do want to point out in this is that there were all kinds of tips that were coming in at the time. And some of my favorite stories came from women on dating apps who would go and specifically seek out January Sixers and then report them to the FBI.
That is genius. I loved it. So, yeah.
Pisha (1:00:11)
It was great. Yeah. Like I think I want to say like anonymous and a few other hacking groups also like went on this campaign to like, yeah, really expose everybody.
Raven (1:00:18)
Oh, that's right. Yeah, they did. They didn't they find like even like Trump's password was something really dumb. I forgot that.
Pisha (1:00:27)
Yeah, yeah his password was MAGA2020! And then when they hacked it, he changed it to MAGA 2024! Fucking idiot!
Raven (1:00:41)
Oh my God, and we want him to rule. Oh God, I don't want to even think about it. But yeah, so this is three years out. And so, I mean, at this point we've had some pleas, we've had some trials, and we've had some sentencing. About 467 of the defendants who have been sentenced have been sentenced to periods of incarceration, and the other 154 were sentenced to a period of home detention.
Pisha (1:00:45)
UGH
Raven (1:01:05)
You know, there were quite a few criminal implications here. You know, the funny thing is when this happened, I was like, oh, my God, I would never want to represent any of these people. I was just like one of those like, I wouldn't want to represent them. And then I realized it was like their defense is that they were influenced by Trump. Of course I would want to represent them. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And yeah.
Pisha (1:01:25)
Absolutely. That would be so fun, you know, connecting all the dots to him. I just, I want to, I'm sorry. I just wanted to point out how fucked up it is that all of these little people who contribute to his legal, Trump's legal funds, who do all his dirty work for him, they're all getting arrested and they're all paying the price for him.
Raven (1:01:47)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (1:01:51)
we have laws, for example, RICO, that exist for the purpose of getting the main perpetrator of a criminal organization who isn't actually doing the dirty work. I have been arguing for years that RICO needs to somehow be applied to the Trump organization or to Trump, the Trump campaign. And then you can assign liability to Trump himself
Raven (1:02:01)
Mm-hmm.
I can see it. Yeah.
Pisha (1:02:18)
But for the actions of his minions. So he needs to be held accountable. There's a lot of shit going on right now.
So here's what happened in the other political, legal, and social repercussions of January 6th. The second impeachment of Donald Trump.
he was charged for incitement of insurrection for his conduct. And this occurred on January 13th.
he didn't make the required two thirds vote in the Senate for conviction. So he was impeached, but he wasn't removed and wasn't convicted because he didn't get the two thirds.
Raven (1:02:49)
Yep.
Pisha (1:02:53)
So the House later was able to approve a House Select Committee to investigate the attack after a lot of fighting. Congress would refuse to open up investigations because the Republicans had taken some control in these areas.
So in June of 2021, the Senate released the results of its own investigation of the attack. I don't know what, I didn't read it. I wish I had, but basically, yeah, there wasn't enough time and
Raven (1:03:18)
Mm-hmm. Not enough time.
Pisha (1:03:24)
Trump was ultimately suspended from various social media sites for his involvement in citing the attack, at least it was temporarily at first and then indefinitely. In response to posts by Trump supporters in favor of the attempts to overturn the election, the social networking site Parler was shut down by its service providers. So that's actually what led to the end of Parler was January 6th.
Raven (1:03:48)
Oh, there we go. I didn't realize that's where we're going with that. Well, there you go.
Pisha (1:03:50)
Yeah, yeah. So you started it off for me and I got to end it. Thank you for that. Also as a repercussion of January 6th on August 1st,
Raven (1:03:56)
Heh. Ah, sure.
Pisha (1:04:02)
The Fitch ratings downgraded the US credit rating from AAA to AA, AA plus. I don't know. Credit stuff.
But it just basically said it was the second time in US history that the government's credit rating was downgraded since the downgrade in 2011. And it was because of the economic instability seen resulting from January 6th. Bills were brought by Republicans in three states attempting to restrict protest activity. Why wouldn't they do that? Why?
wouldn't they take the opportunity to cut the legs off of BLM because of what their f**ked hard supporters did. So yeah, also the international reaction, I mean, they widely condemned it, even places like Iraq, like condemned it. And it was called and is considered an attempted coup by the
Raven (1:04:42)
Oh yeah!
Pisha (1:05:00)
European Union. So this brings us to the really important legal ramifications of the 14th Amendment and Trump's possible disqualification under it. So a lot of legal scholars argue that Trump should be barred from presidential office under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution because of his apparent support for the attack.
Raven (1:05:02)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Pisha (1:05:27)
Three states, Maine, Colorado, and Illinois issued rulings to disqualify Trump from appearing on their election ballots. Trump appealed their decisions in Trump v. Anderson. The Supreme Court heard the case on February 8th, 2024 and unanimously ruled on March 4th, 2024 that states could not remove Trump from ballot. And you and I discussed this. We're not exactly clear. We're clear. We're clear that
Raven (1:05:55)
clear, but it doesn't make sense. Like logistically, it doesn't make sense. Let's just put it that way.
Pisha (1:05:57)
Yeah, go- Yes.
Right. And so basically what the Supreme Court said was that the states don't have the authority to enforce this provision of the 14th Amendment. Only Congress can do so. I don't get how they can do that. How Congress can tell states who Congress has no involvement in voting. That is exclusively for the states.
And so it doesn't make sense to me that Congress should have to tell the states to take people off of their ballots. Where do they get the authority from the constitution to do that? And I guess it's in the 14th amendment, section three. We didn't see it. You and I did not see it, but that's apparently their argument. I'm guessing that if Trump were convicted of a serious, like once
Raven (1:06:40)
Right.
Pisha (1:06:57)
If and when he is convicted of a serious crime or misdemeanor, then the states can start disqualifying them from their ballots. Like, to me, that makes sense. However, it's not clear that that's what they'd be able to do because of the provision saying Congress has to enforce it, right?
Raven (1:07:13)
Right, it's like, yeah, I mean, section three does say like, like Congress can override and like, it appears that it's under Congress's authority. It just doesn't make sense logistically to me how that would happen because states are involved, states are the only ones, the Arbiters are their own elections. So I just don't, I don't know how that works. So anyway.
Pisha (1:07:27)
Right.
Yeah. I don't get it either, especially because there were some successful disqualifications under the 14th amendment here in our home state of New Mexico in Otero County, the commissioner Cui Griffin, who you may recall is the Cowboys for Trump guy. He was, yeah, right. He was disqualified and removed from office. So that's dope. And then.
Raven (1:07:41)
Mm-hmm.
That guy. That fucking guy.
Yeah, it's probably because his name is Koi.
Pisha (1:08:05)
Yeah, I know he's an idiot, And then also there was an attempt, to remove Marjorie Taylor Green as well, she survived. I think it was just because her support of the insurrection was too vague to be considered inciting or to be considered like some sort of coordination effort, does that make sense? So.
Raven (1:08:27)
It does, also she's too dumb, so.
Pisha (1:08:29)
She's the dumbest person alive. So, yeah, we have yet to see what's gonna happen with Trump. I'm very scared about what's gonna happen if he loses again. I'm scared of what's gonna happen if he wins again. Like, I'm scared in general. I'm scared that...
Raven (1:08:31)
Seriously.
Right.
Me too.
I'm scared in general.
Pisha (1:08:53)
The Supreme Court is, like you've mentioned to me before, going to delay all of these trials against Trump so that he can participate in the election. And there's another piece of me that's like, how can you run for office at the same time when you've got to be in trial?
Raven (1:08:59)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Right.
Yeah, or in prison.
Pisha (1:09:17)
In prison, right? Like, so I guess what I'm saying is how is he going to campaign when he's going to be in trial basically every day from this day until the election? We're talking not just the state charges in Georgia. We're talking, I think Arizona has opened. Yeah, now Arizona has opened.
Raven (1:09:33)
Now there's Arizona. Mm-hmm. Oh, wait, he's an unnamed. He's an unnamed conspirator there. So he's not, he's not a, but he could become one.
Pisha (1:09:39)
Uhhhhhh
Yes, and if he keeps fucking pushing Carrie Lakes buttons, it could be sooner than later. We'll see what happens.
Raven (1:09:49)
I would love to see him tried in Arizona, although he'd probably be acquitted in Arizona. So yeah.
Pisha (1:09:54)
Oh, sure, sure. But, you know, we just need one state to hold because, you know, the next thing that I'm afraid of is that all of his federal charges will be immediately pardoned by himself or by the next president. That can't be done with state charges. So I'm really putting everything I've got on the New York criminal trial and the Georgia election interference trial.
Raven (1:10:10)
Yeah.
Yeah, same, same. And it's been a joy to watch, quite honestly. So.
Pisha (1:10:26)
I know we were going to do our top five favorite responses from the voir dire of Trump's trial, but we just didn't have enough time. We encourage all of you to go out and look at some of the jurors' responses, potential jurors. Oh my God. They're so funny. It's hilarious. Some of the things people said, they were like, well, I just don't think he's very smart. Just things like, just little digs.
Raven (1:10:41)
Yeah, send them to us. We'll read them out if you have them.
Pisha (1:10:55)
They have to say it to his face while he's in the courtroom. It's great. So look into it, folks.
Raven (1:11:00)
It is, yeah. So there is some justice here, not a lot, and I don't have any faith that there's going to be ultimate justice, but yeah, I mean, I guess where do we go from here? I don't really know. I mean, that's the problem is like, the whole reason that we did this entire, you know, month was to talk about right-wing extremism and how prevalent it's become and what do we need to do about it.
And I mean, the fact of the matter is like, I don't know that I'm any closer to knowing now than I was four weeks ago. I think we've got to not let people get too isolated. I think that we've got to learn how to talk to each other better. I think that, you know, and I don't know how to do that, because, you know, I thinking about people, members of my own family, not immediate, but that
I don't even know how to talk to them. So I don't know. I don't know what the answer is.
Pisha (1:11:57)
You know, and one of the problems is we really latched onto this idea at some point, I don't know when, that it was polite to not talk about politics and religion with other people. The problem is we now have no way to politely communicate about these very important topics anymore. Because we shut down the conversation, because it's polite not to talk about it.
Raven (1:12:09)
Right.
Yeah.
Pisha (1:12:23)
we now don't have a polite way of talking about it. And so I think we really shot ourselves in the foot with that mindset. And I hope that we can kind of change it. I think we can all agree that the US military being used on its own citizens, whether it's a Black Lives Matter movement or the fucking Capitol riot protesters is bad optics. It's not good. We don't want to encourage the military being used on our own people. And...
Raven (1:12:23)
Right.
Right.
Pisha (1:12:51)
And you know, this brings up one little anecdote I just want to share before we end about when I was in law school and I was in my constitutional rights class and we were reading the Westboro Baptist case against the, you know, protesting the dead soldiers funerals. And our professor asked the room, you know, who can think of a reason why the court should protect the Westboro Baptist speech in this case?
Raven (1:12:55)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Pisha (1:13:19)
And I'm looking around the room and no one's raising their hands. Everyone hates these people. I hate these people. I hate them. Um, and their behavior is abhorrent to me, but should it be restricted by the federal government? No. And ultimately I ended up raising my hand and saying, I want to make clear that I do not in any way support or condone the messages of these people. However.
Raven (1:13:24)
Of course. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (1:13:48)
maybe the reason we should protect their speech is because if we don't protect theirs, we also can't protect some of the more outlandish ideas out there that aren't popular but are good for society. And so we need to be exposed to unpopular ideas, otherwise we don't know that they're wrong.
Raven (1:14:02)
Right.
Right.
Pisha (1:14:15)
They're socially unacceptable. We can't draw a line in our social sand. And.
Raven (1:14:21)
Right, and it just allows for healthy social discourse about these things. Like, we talked about last time and I think throughout this whole thing, that you don't just get rid of people by like silencing them. And so I think part of the problem that comes from, maybe not Oklahoma City as much, but definitely from January 6th, is that a lot of these people felt silenced. And we do have to acknowledge that.
So, you know, I mean, I think that free speech is incredibly important. And I think that we need to figure out how to manage our emotions when it comes to people who disagree with us. So because I don't think that the answer is to just, you know, call everybody a racist or call everybody, you know, whatever, fascist or whatever, even if we think it. But you can say that behind their backs, just not to their face. I'm just kidding.
Pisha (1:14:49)
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Right. Or, but no, you're right though. Like the point is don't shut down the conversation. Go home and think whatever private thoughts you want to continue to think after that interaction. But during the interaction, like that's not productive. Right.
Raven (1:15:17)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Right, and you might learn something, right? Like, and that's the thing is like, I'm not saying like people who say racist things have a kernel of truth to them, but like, if you, take one kernel of everything that they've said and you learn something from it, then it's productive.
Pisha (1:15:42)
Well, and I think what you're trying to say, I don't know if it was Aristotle who said this, but one of them said that the stupidest man can't learn from the wisest man, but the wisest man can learn from the stupidest man. And I think, yeah, and I think the point is that we can learn something from people's behavior regardless if we agree with it.
Raven (1:15:47)
Okay.
Yeah, there you go.
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (1:16:10)
Um, and so I think, you know, every opportunity is an opportunity to learn. I think we've learned something throughout the series on right wing extremism and hopefully going forward, I mean, it sounds like with the Palestine, protest, we haven't learned anything. And so it's not like we're seeing really good results here, but hopefully we can slow this movement down somehow. And.
Raven (1:16:20)
Yeah.
No.
Pisha (1:16:35)
restore some civility between the two parties. Like we live in a two party system. I don't know what to say. We have to collaborate and cooperate.
Raven (1:16:39)
I would hope so.
Yeah, that's the best we could hope for at this point. So, and who knows? I don't know. I mean, it's not going away. So we're just gonna have to figure out how to live with it.
Pisha (1:16:49)
Yeah.
Yep, exactly, exactly. So I think that wraps us up for right-wing extremism.
Raven (1:16:57)
So.
That's right, that's right it does. And so, well, that was quite the series. I don't know how we come out of that one, but we're gonna try because May is a busy month for us. We've got certain personal obligations going on, a little wedding going on. And so we're gonna commit to two episodes in May and they're going to be hearty episodes about cults. So stay tuned for...
Pisha (1:17:16)
That's right.
Raven (1:17:26)
our two-parter, potentially more. We're only promising to, we'll see what happens. And then we will see you next week with one of those cults. And until then, remember to like, listen, and subscribe. Follow us on all the social medias. Is that right? Social medias? Social media? Anyway, do that. And stay out of law school and the infirmaries.
Pisha (1:17:44)
Yeah. Uh... Yeah.
Raven Deranger (1:17:53)
Remember to like and subscribe to Deranged DeJure on your favorite podcast platform and follow at deranged.dejure on all the major social media. Contact us by email at deranged.dejure at gmail.com. This has been a Raven Kink production.