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In this episode, Dr. Lottie sits down with Dr. Dave Nicol to unpack what actually matters when choosing your first role, how to spot a genuinely supportive clinic, and why most interview processes completely miss the mark.
Dave is a veterinarian, author and founder of the Veterinary Leadership Academy. He works with practices worldwide to build healthier teams, stronger leadership, and sustainable careers in vet med. He has set up and led graduate programmes and has been a proud mentor for many new vets over the years.
Dave’s 5 Laws for a good graduate programme:
Dave is a veterinarian, author and founder of the Veterinary Leadership Academy. He works with practices worldwide to build healthier teams, stronger leadership, and sustainable careers in vet med. He has set up and led graduate programmes and has been a proud mentor for many new vets over the years.
Dave’s 5 Laws for a good graduate programme:
- Clear mentorship ownership
- Capacity & capability to teach
- Staged expectations
- Accessible support
- Intentional progression over time
Where to find Dave:
Instagram: @drdavenicol
Website: https://www.drdavenicol.com/
Find us on TikTok & Instagram: @veterinaryvista
Timeline:
00:00 Intro
01:46 Dave’s Career as a Vet
14:10 Culture in Practice & New Grads Fitting In
18:59 Day-to-Day as a GP
31:14 Finding the Perfect First Clinic
44:47 How to Nail an Interview
52:35 Mental Health
01:04:32 Final Questions
01:14:10 Outro
Links
Website: https://drdavenicol.com
So You’re a Vet… Now What?: https://drdavenicol.com/book
Veterinary Leadership Success Show: https://open.spotify.com/show/6wZzJq0dQk6p2vFZP4Jr5Y
Blunt Dissection: https://open.spotify.com/show/3Zx7w1vF9Xqk0s8nV6Q2kL
Current Vet is an educational podcast intended for veterinary students, veterinary professionals, and individuals with an interest in veterinary medicine.
All content provided in this podcast and its associated materials is for educational and informational purposes only. It is not intended as, and must not be considered a substitute for, professional veterinary advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Any clinical cases discussed in this podcast are fictional, and are designed to reflect typical or likely clinical scenarios for educational purposes. They do not represent specific real-life cases, clients, or animals.
While every effort is made to ensure accuracy and alignment with current evidence at the time of publication, veterinary medicine is a rapidly evolving field, and recommendations may change over time.
Creators and Guests
What is Current Vet?
The podcast that makes veterinary medicine simple.
In each episode, Dr. Lottie breaks down clinical conditions, cases, and concepts across species, focusing on pathophysiology, decision-making, diagnostics, and what actually matters in practice. It’s the kind of context that makes your knowledge finally click.
Every month, we’ll also have honest conversations with guests about the incredible variety of veterinary medicine, what you can do with a vet degree and how to think bigger about your career.
Whether you’re cramming for exams or looking for a soundtrack for your dog walk, Current Vet will make veterinary medicine simple
Intro
[00:00:00] Hello, hello and welcome to Current Vet. This is the podcast that makes veterinary medicine simple. I'm Dr. Lottie, and today we're talking about something that I think a lot of us wished we had more advice on and training on when we're in vet school. And that is how to navigate the hiring process and your first job as a new grad.
So we're going to talk about how to get your first job, how to spot a supportive clinic, preparing for interviews, what matters in the first year as a new grad, and what to look out for when you're weighing up different workplace options. And today I'm joined by Dr. Dave Nicol to tell us all about it. So Dave is a veterinarian, author, international speaker.
He is the winner of VM X's Speaker of the Year Award twice. He's a practice owner. He's the founder of Veterinary Leadership Academy, where he [00:01:00] focuses on teaching leadership skills to managers and helping clinics build a supportive, sustainable team so vets can thrive in their practice. He's also the author of, so You're a Vet Now What?
And host the podcast, the Veterinary Leadership Success Show and Blunt Dissection. And if that's not enough, he is also a triathlete and competes in races all over the world. So Dave, welcome and thank you so much for being here.
I am exhausted even hearing that Lottie.
It is crazy.
Funny what this career can lead you to but, uh, thank you for having me.
Yeah. Thank you for being here. How much of that was planned and how much of it has just kind of happened?
Dave's Career as a Vet
It all just happened?
I mean, there were moments of planning in it, but you sat me down, the day of graduation, sat in a slightly cold, drafty flat in [00:02:00] Glasgow thinking, what the bloody hell do I do now? 'cause there's no jobs available here. you said that's what's gonna happen. I, we thought you're quite mad. . Some of it,
the practice ownership. I actually, I, I wasn't sure I wanted to get into ownership at that point. I think I had quite entrepreneurial instincts. but I definitely just wanted a good job, a good, good first home. And I, I actually had turned down job. I, I said I'd been for an interview, I'd said yes, completely going against all of the advice I'm about to share with you. the job took some time to materialize and allowed me enough breathing space to realize that I was probably making a huge error for my career. and so I turned it down without anywhere else to go to in a dwindling bank account and an increasingly irritated set of parents who wanted me to get outta the [00:03:00] house and work. And I found the job that I needed, um, that was the right fit for me thereafter, but I nearly made a huge mistake. And if I look back on my career now, I don't look back now and think, goodness, what, what would I, what would young me have thought young me was, you know, an adventurous lunatic. would be completely unsurprised.
It was not planned, but, but Youngme would be excited to know and, and, and excited to get after it. I think if I'd have made a different choice, my career would've moved in a, in a different direction. I wouldn't have started out happy and, and I like to
Yeah,
wouldn't have put me off the profession. You just don't know that first job
yeah.
matters hugely. So, , so Yeah.
no, there, there were moments of planning in there. Of course there were, but, you know, I, I was able to recognize areas that I enjoyed doing things, areas that also looked like problematic areas. You know, [00:04:00] that was one of the themes of my career, was spotting a gap in a market then doing the work that was needed to fill it effectively. So, so there were moments and that, that's a theme. Find the gap, find a thing. I think I might quite enjoy. 'cause there are lots of gaps and not all of them. I'm in the right shape to fill and then go really hard on filling the gap effectively. means, you know, being
yeah,
and then enjoying that space. The, the, the rewards that come with that.
.
Did you always wanna be a vet then? Was it, was that the plan or did you kind of fall into that as well?
I think. I always had a love for an affinity with nature and animals. I, you know, my, I think about this now. My daughter just turned 13 and that was the age I, when I first walked into vet clinic, and. You know, I've, I've, I've, I've known for some time I want to be a vet at this point. and I've also done the research and I know [00:05:00] I've gotta go see practice firstly. Job one is to see if I can actually hack this. And it looks like the job,
Yeah.
is. But secondly then to gather the experience necessary to put on my application form, which will be going in, in a mere four years, which at that age feels like forever the future. Right. and so I had to show up at five o'clock every, every. Monday for, and, and the vet started evening, surgery, maybe five o'clock, something like that. I had to show up and then dive in and get all the kennels cleaned but the promised land was getting to hang off the edge, end of the exam room table, the consult room table, and just go, wow, this is amazing. And I can just remember there's our crazy, like it was a mix of, it was a country, it was a town. St. Andrews is a town, but it's, it's got a bit of a country vibe and the farmers coming in and. Half them were, but they were all inappropriate and half of them were drunk. the towns folk coming in, I remember one lady [00:06:00] coming in and every, you know, she had these false teeth and they didn't fit. So every time she spoke, the top row of her false teeth fell out onto the bottom row. And so it, she was answering questions and it, head, it was, it was like hearing the aka going like, clack clacking away or the Grand National or coconut things clicking away.
Just, just think back on it and this absolutely bewildering for a 13-year-old just to see this nonsense. And I loved it. I loved it.
I was gonna say, it sounds like a good introduction to
Oh, it was amazing. So, you know, and from that point I was, I was kinda, I was hooked. I was all in. Um, and even then you'll get the flavor that actually, you know, the animals were what drew me in, but the people were what stuck me in. And, and, you know, they were so kind to me. And, going back in there, I felt like an extended part of the family practice. And I actually
Yeah.
offered a job there when I graduated. And it brought my heart to say no. But it was the right [00:07:00] decision to say no, because I
Yeah.
ready, that that practice couldn't have supported me the way I needed, supported as a vet, and I didn't
Yeah,
there and make all the, all the screw ups you make as a new graduate, if you make them in your hometown, where do you go after that?
I always wanted to be able to go back. If I cocked it up everywhere else, then at least I'd
yeah,
and I could come back after a couple years and, and, and do it right where it mattered most,
yeah,
back at home in my community
yeah.
You know, if, if, if you know where you want to be. I mean, that the thing is. point in your life, the thought that you can know where you're gonna be in the five years further down the track, you know, everyone's got a plan until you get punched in the face. And, uh, doesn't matter what your plan is, life's gonna fuck it right up for you one way or the other. So you better be able to roll with the punches. So,
Yeah, , yeah. I got asked, um, you know, interviewing a couple of months ago and they're like, where'd you see yourself in 10 years? And I was like, I don't know. I, [00:08:00] I can't even see next year I, 10 years. I have no idea.
I mean, that's just an example of classically, utterly useless questions what are you gonna say? Like, I, A, whatever you say is gonna not be true. And B, you're,
Yeah.
an interview technique, you're just gonna say, you know what the love language is, the person's likely to hear, like as in,
Yeah.
want me to hang about for the next three years.
So I'm say, well, I might see myself and I want to seem ambitious, you know, maybe doing some extra training in surgery or medicine or, you know, something later. But for the next two or three years, I really want to find a home and just do the, you know, to, to get my
Yeah,
profession for uses that as an answer.
it means nothing.
It's absolute.
said is I wanna stay in the same place and be, be better than I [00:09:00] currently
Which
am, obviously.
but it's just bullshit in terms of its accuracy and its, its
yeah,
which, you know, which is partly, I mean, that's why I'm excited to, to talk about today mostly is like, so how do you actually fathom out, you know, it's a, it's a dumb question. You can't rely on the answer.
That's why it's a dumb question. And if you can't rely on the answer, what was the point of wasting oxygen on it in the first place? the sort of shit that people ask in interview questions, excuse my French, that can, you know, it, it, it perpetuates the poor matching process that that is, is there, like the, the interview process is generally bad by design and people are not very skilled at it, which is why you get asked dumb questions like that.
, Yeah. And there's always like a set kind of. I'd say like three or four questions that you can pretty much guarantee you're gonna get asked and have an answer for what are your strengths, what are your weaknesses? Where do you see yourself in 10 years? And I'm like, it's always the same [00:10:00] if you have you.
Literally, my interview process when I, before I graduated uni, I had a piece of a five paper that had a load of stuff written out. I used the same I a future employers yesterday, but I used the same thing because the examples are, are relatable across every interview because they all ask the same questions.
Right
Like it doesn't mean it's like not true or they're bad examples, but I can use the same thing for every interview.
Right. And effectively an interview.
is a first date of kind and. Everyone understands how hard it is to find a partner for life or a partner you can even bear. And the first date is rarely a, a reflection on what comes next because you know, you've got, I dunno why I'm going this route.
I've never used Tinder, but you've got a Tinder profile, right, which is bullshit.
Yep.
and you've got [00:11:00] like, and, and everybody's kind of making up their best bits. Like the interview process, the way it's done is very similar. That kind of like both sides are catfishing each other a bit.
Yeah. And you're not gonna go forward with your worst qualities.
correct?
I.
So, so it's, you know, it's, it's, it's kinda low value information. We ask completely different questions of a completely different structure because what we're interested in is a good fit to a person for the team and to the role and, and we, we understand who we are. We understand who we're looking for.
Uh, we understand what works and we understand what doesn't work. And we're never ever gonna take someone who is just a warm pulse 'cause it's not fair to anybody to do that. Like, you know,
yeah.
you're setting yourself up to fail, but people do it because there's pressure on them to make some money, or there's pressure on them to fill a hole in their schedule because the rest of the team is suffering. actual fact, all you do is create more friction or tension. If you, you know, if you're lucky and you get a good fit, then great. But we [00:12:00] know that that's not how it goes.
Yeah.
of the time you get at best and adequate fit you can put up with for a while. And quite frequently a really poor fit for the team. And that creates
Yeah.
and chaos within a team. And, and now the culture is suffering. And now everybody's struggling. And, you know,
Yeah.
it best when people who are a bad fit leave a clinic and everybody. The person who was the bad fit included, breathes a huge sigh of relief. 'cause the experience is just over and it should never happen in the first place.
That's what we've got to get better at doing with our recruitment on both sides, is, you know, setting ourselves up to succeed by selecting jobs and practices that might meet our needs, you know, on the graduate side and knowing how to do that. And that's a big ask because frankly you're, you know, that's a skill that you don't have when you leave university, but you will by the end of this podcast. Um, and on the flip side, um, practice is understanding that not [00:13:00] everybody should hire a new graduate.
Yeah.
Because if you get it wrong, you, you, you, you, you're gonna inflict trauma on a graduate and that's gonna affect their desire to want to do this again, the resilience in the profession. And so I think we're in a, a state as a profession now, partly because we've, we've abused that, um, on both sides. so we've gotta find a way to build systems that are great places for graduates to thrive. And I do think there is a collective responsibility, on us all as practice owners when we are in a position to be able to do that. Like, I, I think that's a great thing to invest in and it can be profitable for your practice as well. So it's not an act of altruism, it's an act of self-harm if you get it wrong and not just self-harm. It, it, it harms the graduate. Also, but an act that can work really well for both and honestly, like you look after your graduates and they go on to the next thing and [00:14:00] will be very proud and talk very highly of the first job they ever had, and they'll stick
yeah.
you are not gonna be able to buy employer brand value like that anywhere.
Culture in Practice & New Grads Fitting In
How has I guess, culture and practices changed since you were a new grad?
, I, I, I, I, so that's a really difficult question to answer because practices have always had culture. And the reason it's difficult is because there's so many hues of culture that exist. But every practice has its own culture. , And that has always been the case. And whether people are intentional about culture or not, will be a culture.
Yeah.
why people need to pay more attention to it and be more intentional. I think, and certainly all of my work, a huge amount of it now revolves around. how to manage culture with [00:15:00] intention. You know, we focused on that as a, you know, I hesitate to say as a point of differentiation, because we didn't do it to have it as a point of differentiation. We did it because it's the right thing to do for the practice to
Yeah.
That's the point of culture is to support the mission the practice is on. the mission shouldn't just be, eat, sleep, vet, med, repeat. ' So there's, when you've not got a vision in the practice, then you've just got this attritional convert belt of medicine that's never ending. And the why is baked into medicine. So we get away with it.
We get to help animals and advocate for those that can't advocate for themselves. I get that, but it does get a little wearing if there's no end in sight on this treadmill. So I think it's important to try and create a more meaningful why for your practice and understand why you are doing that as a, as a practice owner. And why you as a graduate. Think Cool, cool. This place is kind of awesome. I I buy into
Yeah.
I'm, I'm for this. and then so that's, that's [00:16:00] a practice why you can move into their whats, which is the mission that they're on. , And then there's a set of values that are, then they're, they're really ground zero for culture.
Like if you've got values that are real and lived, they become virtues and virtues that are lived consistently. Coalesced become the normal ways we do things around here. and that is at the core is what culture is. So I would love to say that we've got a much better focus on intentional culture now, but the truth is, it's bullshit.
We don't, what we have now is a corporatized medicine sector that is more, it, it, it's become less about the vocation. That's the danger when it's less about the vocation and it's more about the paycheck. And, and when you lose. Cultural ties. You lose the mentorship bridges that are lost. This is a mycelial network that helps new entrants into any, any workplace setting [00:17:00] become really good. let, like, let's be completely frank. When vets graduate university, not ready to be vets because how could they be? You've, you, we, what they've done is complete veterinary degree. But that, that's day one ready. not veterinary career ready. You know, we do ourselves a disservice by considering otherwise.
'cause we're then at the graduate level measuring ourselves to a standard that's not, that's not accurate. It's not, it's not fair, it's not achievable. So give yourself a break. And also we're holding graduates accountable to a standard or holding universities test standard. That's not achievable. What graduates coming into our practices are and should be considered are apprentices. Okay, got a degree. They've got a license to kill as James Bond does, or a license to hopefully not kill unless it's actually what the client's there for. But they've got a license to diagnose, to prescribe, to [00:18:00] operate, you know, to, to make decisions that only a veterinary veterinarian can. with great power comes great responsibility. And, and, and we are not ready for that, that's where we need to be considered apprentices. Now, that's not to say that, that that is not more vet school. That's, that's required. That is a staged phased introduction and a gradual ramp up in exposure to two things, the volume of caseload and the complexity of caseload. And so it's, you. There is lots of predictable work out there. Wellness work is almost all predictable. I think it's a terrific place to start as a veterinary professional because you can start practicing your communication skills. You can pace that adequately, , because nothing's dying here. Now you've,
Yeah.
going to find important things like lumps or dental disease or heart murmurs, but they're not going to be urgent [00:19:00] things, which means you've got time and
Yeah.
think your way through it, raise your, what you're gonna say properly answer, and a, you know, ask and answer questions with a client. And so you need to be able to expose the graduates in this apprenticeship phase, um, to a, a, a sort of appropriate level of and complexity to start with. And then just like training to be an athlete, like, know, in triathlon or in any athletic endeavor. You don't go into it and you're not going to go and run an Olympic distance in under two and a half hours on your first goal. And should you try, you're, probably gonna half drown on the swim, to be honest, within about a hundred meters. 'cause, 'cause you've just, you've not prepared. with what athletes do, most of the time they're training at very low intensity with occasional blips up into RA ranges that help them. [00:20:00] Or if I go to the gym, you know, the first time you go back to the gym after a layoff and you lift big weights, you get really sore for a week afterwards. Like, so that's, that's, that's called doms Or worse, you get injured. So in the learning context, if you throw a graduate in too soon, then they're gonna get mental doms. Uh, or worse, they're gonna get mental scarring. So it's about, about making sure that there is a, a, a very intentional exposure to caseload in terms of volume and complexity. And that doesn't mean safe you know, no risk there.
It has to be measured risk. So it's that failure has a container. And the container is, there's really two parts to that container. One is, we're exposing you to an appropriate level of risk and that, you're not going to fail catastrophically. 'cause we're here
Yeah.
you to help you. The type first time you enter into an abdomen, [00:21:00] you know that once you get through the skin, that's pretty easy. then if you happen to lock out and it's not a fat animal. Like, you can get to the, the musculature fairly quickly, and if it's fat, then you're gonna guddle around for 10 minutes thinking, screw my life. Why did I choose to be a vet?
This is awful. How dumb am I? I I know that the, where I'm trying to get to, it's literally an inch
Yeah.
one side to the other, and yet I'm failing horribly, and I have a laser sharpened scalpel in my hand. Right? But
Yep.
got one that's not fat, the first time you try and enter an abdomen, and if you're just a millimeter away from the linear elbow, you come on it, you, you pick It up with a scalpel and immediately you start cutting in and actually you're now cutting into sort of rectus abdominis.
And now you're dissecting sideways through that and you're thinking not this far to the middle [00:22:00] of the abdomen. How can I still
It is just that. It's just that,
I could, I could. Slip and see the thing is right there. Why am I still in muscle? And you think, is this some kind of trans dimensional head fuck that's just trying to screw me as a vet? And in actual fact, it's no, you just went at the wrong angle and you're going through a muscle. But if you don't have somebody there to go hit, just change your angle by 15 degrees and oh shit. Right? They're easy. Right?
Yeah.
Such a simple example. But that's what I mean by there needs to be a container for that moment of, and it's not really failure, it's just learning by doing it wrong, which is not the same as that as failure. So I think there's, there, you know, I think in parallels and I try and think of systems and I think it's important that that exposure is sensible and graded and not just kicked in.
What are some things that you do as a practice or like some [00:23:00] elements of your culture that you really try and, , build on and really nurture.
So for us and, and for me, like the, the, I described earlier what culture is, but, but it's important to pause and just think about why it exists and, and why it exists is to support the work. At its best, culture should support the mission of the practice. At its worst impedes the mission. So for us, that meant being very intentional and, thinking first of all what our values were and how we are not just articulate those, but how we bring those to life in the practice. , So if growth, one of our values, what does growth look like in a way that's, and another of our values, conscientiousness and kindness. So checking people in an exam room with a completely unfiltered list on their own without support for three hours, there [00:24:00] will be some growth. that's true, but it doesn't meet the conscientious or the kind level of value. So, so what, what if, if learning were to be values led, what would that experience look like? And so by starting with. had that in our brain. and actually we, we just asked a simple question like, what does an amazing graduate program look like? And I'd, I'd done interviews with graduates, , you know, it wasn't miles away from being one myself. And I'd set up graduate training programs, back in the uk.
But when I went to Australia, I decided like, I'm gonna set this up. And what would a really, what would a great graduate internship program look like? Because they didn't exist for general practice at the time, and I wanted to do one. And so we came up with a list of things. We thought, well, this would be really good.
What if, what if we never left the graduate on their own? So that there was always somebody there that could be at, you know, [00:25:00] an available mentor of some kind. Um,
part of this apprenticeship, what if we never left the graduate on their own they've had availability? That would be one thing. So we thought, well, let's, let's put, let's create a new shift in the middle of our day where there's an experienced vet starts at eight and finishes at four, and there's a. experience vet starts at 12 and finishes at eight, but our graduate starts at 10, finishes at six. And now actually we've got the choice of whether we put them in doing some consults with some wellness stuff,
Yeah.
actually if they're starting at 10, that's when we would really like to get ops and things going.
And if we train them on our anesthetic protocols and we put them with the nursing team who know the ins and outs by the practice work, they could just shadow them for the first hour learning and getting
Yeah.
with anesthetics and things like that. So you create some structure, you can start thinking about how you can use that to actually continue the [00:26:00] education. I think a principle that was really important was. A lot of graduates come out and want to try everything in this , sweet store and get good at everything fast. And that's not really the way skills work. to get good at something, you need to do it right to start with, which means you need to be taught to do it right. You then need to practice it a lot with feedback. So you need steering, you need volume, you need feedback and and reflection. And when you get those things happening, then you stand the chance of really quickly developing a skillset. So we divided the year into quarterly themes and said, right, well, Q1, the theme will be professional skills, nonclinical skills. 'cause that is the foundation. If you get that bit right, you, if you end up happy, generating happy client interactions and it turns out [00:27:00] appreciative clients are a massively important thing Happiness Client saying, thank you po it just feels amazing. You feel like you belong, you feel like you did good. So if you have the power to. Not create angst in clients or anxiety or stress in the clients. So they complain or be a pain in your butt. Instead that they're on board and they say yes to your recommendations and they're, they say, thank you for your work. That's huge. That's non-clinical skills, that's communication skills. Um, that's body language, that's parts of persuasion. Um, that's reading a room, that's negotiation skills. That's dealing with conflict and understanding that hearing the word no doesn't mean you failed and you're a bad human being.
There's a whole set of skills that you can learn. , And, and so we focus on that because that builds the platform for longevity in a, in a career. Then we focus on dentistry because there's a massive volume of it. [00:28:00] And there's transferable skills with surgery and. practices. If you can get to be a good dentist, you're now a productive team member and it brings you the most wonderful win moments because almost regardless of how badly you performed the dental, you still would've done that animal a favor. And you're still gonna get 'em coming back 10 days later going, I don't know what you did, but you made my, I've never seen him so happy. That's act it can have, right? So if you're productive, getting good feedback, feel like you can belong and starting to build some transferrable surgical skills,
Yeah.
that's a great thing for me.
And now you've taken the financial pressure off. 'cause you can generate cases so your boss is gonna be happy with you as well. And then you've got choices. Maybe you go for some basic surgical stuff as the, as the focus, as the theme. Maybe you bring clin pathology and laboratory medicine in there because that's, again, there's a massive volume of it you can [00:29:00] do it, it unlocks, you know. Um, I just had a wonderful guy called, um, Dr. Fred Metzker on my podcast he said, you know, look, you know, the animals and owners can lie or be subjective, but blood work isn't it's objective.
Yeah,
And so, get blood work. Get blood and urine, biochem, hematology and urinalysis analysis, and you will learn a lot about what's going on with that animal. Possibly nail a diagnosis, but certainly rule out a ton if everything's good.
.
So focus on that. And, and there you go. You've got four focuses. Um, now it's not to say in that timeframe you're not, you're gonna do vaccines, you're gonna have to talk about lumps and bumps. Just 'cause it's a theme of skills.
Doesn't mean you're not gonna do some surgery, the learning focus, the, you know, the investment of time and
Yeah.
that quarter. Drills into that area, the mentorship, the feedback, conversations. So that leads into the next element, which is you actually do [00:30:00] need to have sit down, structured time with a mentor to reflect on the cases, to ask questions.
Some of that is structured, some of that's unstructured. So you need a mentor who's capable a mentor who's got the capacity to actually have those conversations. And you both need
Yeah.
to the relationship. I think those are the bigger principles of some structure. support, availability, and a plan like what does this year look like, that there is actually a learning structure to it, but it's gotta be malleable and, and be able, you know, it's not gonna be like education. You know, Monday we're gonna go do his pathology at
Yeah.
for an hour. It doesn't work like that
Here's your timetable.
here's your timetable. It's going to start slow and low intensity, but it's go, the, the breaks will come off because there's a, there is a financial imperative here. have to generate a revenue for your practice. They're not just there to train you. Um, and it's not fair to consider it that way.
So if practices are going to invest a lot of time and energy in [00:31:00] a, in a structured support program, it's also fair that the graduate
yeah,
energy in trying to build those skills and contribute to the practice financially, clinically, and culturally
Finding the Perfect First Clinic
So how can new grads, when we're looking for a job and when we're, you know, going through this process, how can we. Check that the practice that we are looking at and the ones that we're interested in are genuinely going to be invested in growth and committed to a structure or a plan for their new grad hires.
Well, the best predictor of future success is past actions.
Yeah.
So does it have a track record of supporting graduates effectively in the past?
And if so, tell me about those graduates. Right. That's a really good starter question. because the proof is in the [00:32:00] pudding. the next thing to ask is, can I speak to those graduates? Right? could give you the name of our past employees. And I love to hear how, how people have, you know, we call 'em our alumni, um, how they're getting on in their future careers.
'cause we are just a stepping stone. So we, we are one lily pad on every frog's hop through life.
but we've gotta be a good one, right? So look for the evidence that somebody has, has been able to deliver that in the past. Now maybe they're just setting up a program for the first time. Well look for the evidence of intentionality about the program.
What is the structure? How is it gonna work in practice? You know? And, and so I think I, I've got these five laws. For practices that if you're gonna set up a graduate program, you have to obey these five laws. So I think if I'm a graduate, what my advice is, I would look for evidence. These laws are in place. So the first law is someone has to be explicitly accountable [00:33:00] the graduate experience. So how do you find that out? Who will be my mentor? Right? Is there a person whose job it is to supervise me? Now that does not mean that they have to be the person that does all of the mentoring, but they've gotta be responsible for the coordination of your experience and checking in with you frequently to see how things are getting on. Right. So I think I would, I would ask for evidence of that. I would actually ask to speak with that person because you're going to have to have a, a, a good relationship with this person. Okay. The second law. The system that you're going into must have capacity and capability. The problem with almost every vet practice is that they don't have a system. They have basically the, the people are the system and often it's a person that's the system, the owner in a smaller practice, and therefore there isn't a system. that person is likely to be overworked and overstressed. And, and so if it's [00:34:00] got the capacity, it means there is time set aside for you to have support meetings. But then that person has also got skills. They've got the capability, they've got patience, they're a good listener, they're a good teacher. they can signpost you to resources. They can hold you accountable without making you feel. An inch tall. you know, so there's a, there's a few skills there that, that, that you should be asking about and looking for.
Right? the third law is that expectations on you are staged and not just implied. Okay. So what does, what does this exposure to and complexity actually look like? Has that been considered and is that mapped out? Okay. So you might have two weeks or a month where consults are gonna be kept at a certain length. You might have 30 minute appointments, or 40 or 45 minute appointments. And the sorts of things you'll see wouldn't be, um, crazy emergencies or fifth opinions of incredibly [00:35:00] complex cases that five practitioners before you haven't managed to succeed. Right? Because that's gonna be kind of stressful, kind of fast, right? the fourth law is that the support is available when you need it. So there's gonna be some structured things that you have to get taught. You, you've got a veterinary degree, so you don't need that rehashed, but you do need the context and, and, and the practicalities of life and practice to be taught. And that's likely to be taught on the job. It might be some didactic teaching, like, so we have a nonclinical skills course that we, we share with graduates.
a dental course, which is largely didactic teaching that we share with graduates. So, there is a curriculum is one form of the training, support is, is about Moving up Bloom's taxonomy of learning. So moving up the pyramid to being really awesome at something. And that's where you start taking the learning and applying it to real life. And that's [00:36:00] where you inevitably start, you know, getting punched in the face by life a bit. you need somebody just to kinda mop your brow and point you in the right direction and tell you to duck and weave and, and,
Yeah.
to reach back, right?
So the port, the sport's available and it's gotta be available when you need it. .
Yeah.
and the final law is that progression is intentional. So there actually is a plan, So what does the skill list that you're gonna learn this year look like? You're not gonna be able to learn it in a linear fashion. 'cause there is a chaos of medicine that's undeniable. But by the end of this year, there should be a list of skills that you actually think you should have accomplished in that year.
And there's a agreement with that, with your mentor, because you might not be on you, you know, you're not gonna be an amazing ultrasonographer after a year in practice. Right? but I tell you this as a, as a, as a broad thing for graduates. I haven't met anybody in veterinary medicine who felt comfortable in the job until they got to about five years in. [00:37:00] And when you know, you feel, you feel okay in it, after, you know, a year you're better than, than when you started. Three years.
You're better than one year, but you're still looking over your shoulder a bit by five years in general practice anyway, seen enough that you've, you've covered the, the common things most stuff you'll be able to handle. And not to say that you'll do everything yourself, but you'll have a plan.
Yeah.
the things that are outside of that, there's still a plan, which is alright, this is a weird one, so now I've gotta think a bit harder. it's still a plan of such, but you don't freak out about them. They become more of a fun challenge than a Oh my god, existential collab You know, I, I don't want to prescribe too much because I think it's important that people figure these things out for themselves. but these laws, if you look for evidence of their existence, there is a plan, that you will have a mentor, that mentor is available and they've got some skills, that, that there is a [00:38:00] progressed exposure. You know, the hand break is, is let off slowly over time in an appropriate way that keeps you in a stretched learning position, rather than chucks you into a full panic mode position. These are all great things. And then I suppose the last thing would be the culture, right? Is there a culture of learning and support? Is there a culture that you know, the team are bought into your learning? Because I'll tell you now, like it's not just the vets that are gonna be your mentors. Like the nurses when I graduated were invaluable and, and, and they'll be
Yeah,
throughout your career. But when you're a graduate, like the nurses , they will lift you up or they'll, they'll crush you.
And if you go in and treat them like you know best, you are making such a big mistake because our veterinary nurses or veterinary technicians, so knowledgeable, so smart, and. whether it's in the operating theater, [00:39:00] whether it's their opinion on a, on something, you know, sure, you've gotta make the decisions, but their input is invaluable and, you, you can rely on them and if you don't, you're, you're missing a huge opportunity.
But the nurses, you know, be open to them, mentoring you as well. So important. My last point on how to choose a job is what not to do. Right. . I mentioned that my first job I chose, I chose wrong and I chose it for money. I was, I was so impressed with myself at getting, it was definitely the best financial job offer I'd heard in my class. And that was an ego moment. But I, I ignored red flags. You know, I wasn't gonna, I, I was gonna be getting mentored by somebody who was the year above me at college, they're not ready for mentorship.
They can teach me a little bit, but they're not ready to mentor you. They weren't ready to mentor me. that's no disrespect to them. That's, that's just the way it is. Like, you [00:40:00] need somebody who's gonna be past that point of comfort and that's gonna be about five years. Right? That number matters.
Okay.
and vets at that stage are really great and keen to be mentors and give back, when you choose for money, a couple of things happen. First thing, you're ignoring the cultural elements. You're ignoring the learning elements, and you're focusing on the finances. And I get that it's appealing because you're graduating with huge student debt. So although the debt monster is there, the important thing is it's serviceable, so don't worry about it. Whatever the, the, the contribution you can make back to that at the start, that leaves you enough money to enjoy your life, just make that contribution. Don't worry about paying it all down as fast as you can because that's not the important thing at the start.
Yeah.
choose your first job for money, for the love of God, because number one, you immediately apply a pressure to make money.
If you do that, gonna be
Yeah.
generate at least five times [00:41:00] your base salary and income every year. if you're not, you're costing the practice money 'cause of all the other costs that go into and running a veterinary clinic. Now, as a new graduate, you're probably not gonna do that immediately. Or if you're put in a situation where you can, like, er, gonna be under an enormous amount of stress. And, you know, we know from the data and the studies we've done that the ER docs are the most stressed It's a difficult place to go as a graduate. , I would suggest you go someplace where there's a values fit and there's a culture of support and mentorship for your first job. ' cause all of that costs money. And if you're a, if you're gonna look somebody in the eye and say, I want you as the, as a small business owner to take time out of your day to mentor me, what you're actually asking them to do is to not do cases that could generate money, to put food on the table for their family, and also
Yeah.
for other support staff. IE they're investing [00:42:00] a shit ton of money and emotional resource in you already going in and asking for them to also pay top dollar is, I think, completely blind to the fact that they're gonna, you know, of the investment they're already making in you. And also they may not be able to make that investment in you if financial pressure occurs in their business because of that. And so they may have to start breaking promises to you because it's that, or making payroll and, and that's the reality of small business, right? There's this trade off You know, if you can get both, get both right? If you genuinely can get great mentorship and great money, then get it.
You'd be a full no to. I'm saying is that's unlikely In a small business setting,
Yeah.
you probably get better money and sign on bonuses from desperate corporations because they're desperate. But don't expect mentorship. Expect to be put in a graduate program with a distant [00:43:00] mentor if you're lucky. But expect pressure to make that money back and I think you're moving into higher risk situation for burnout. And the money. That's your professional dream going up in smoke. That's a Tragedy. So choose a place where mentorship looks like it's gonna be real and the money will come. I promise you. If you build your foundation skills of communicating with clients, medical surgical skill basis, You will become an incredibly valuable asset that you'll get paid. Well, not the best you're gonna get paid like a dentist or a doctor or anything like that, but you knew that when you chose this profession.
Yeah,
me otherwise. 'cause if you think otherwise you didn't do your research, that's on you. But if you've got those skills, you will earn a, a good living. You will be able to service and pay down your student debt. You'll be able to go on vacations, you will be able to buy a house. But if you can't learn those skills, you're gonna [00:44:00] struggle. And, and I think that's one of the biggest strategies.
So as owners, for us and the owner side, we've gotta get better at creating systems where graduate outcomes are almost inevitable. And then hiring graduates who align with our vision or values or
yeah,
And as graduates. You've gotta be patient. And I know there that's in hella short supply these days, but be patient. 'cause these skills don't happen overnight, regardless of what social media likes to make us believe. Choose a great first couple of jobs for support and growth and you've got years to pay off the rest, but if you flame out early, you don't. And what was that seven years of education for at that point?
What was that $200,000 worth of debt for?
How to Nail an Interview
So what can we do to prepare for interviews with these practices? And I guess on both [00:45:00] ends, put. Yourself forward in a way that is both, realistic and true to you. but also how can we get from that interview exactly who the employer is gonna be, what we are getting in the deal,
Yeah.
So I think, I think actually working in a practice is where I think externships. EMS, whatever you call it, wherever you live is so invaluable. You do your homework, sleuth these places out. the real truth won't show up. It's unlikely to show up in the interview alone. Hang out there, better still be a student. Go, go places, travel, you know, wherever your veterinary veterinary degree or your undergraduate degree takes you, go hang out in practices and, and, and shop around and see what you're like.
But, but contribute. Show up. You know, get in the game. Right? Be an active teammate for the time you're there. Ask how you can help and try to [00:46:00] work in that culture rather than just navel gaze. You know, the best way to suss places out is to go spend time in them and to observe the interactions between the team and ask questions of them. in the interview, of course, you could just learn the five or six questions that everybody asks and give them the stock answers to that. But as we already established, neither of you is really learning anything other than you play the same interview game. So ask better questions, you know, un understand, like, write down what your wishlist for good would look like. sense check that, like, is that feasible? Is that, is that reasonable to ask an employer for that? If you have a plan, and this is really important actually, like the, the data that we gather suggests that vets who have a career plan of some sort. It doesn't have to be, you know, what you want to do in five years.
It's just where do you wanna be 12 months from now? good look like? That's really the question. What would good look like after a year in practice? And then [00:47:00] work backward to the skills that you need in order for that to come true and the support. And then ask questions and sell people. Look, this is my plan.
This is what I'd love for a good year. One, does that, how does that jive with what you're looking for?
And then just
Yeah.
Get references from and former employees if you can hang out with them. good questions. What's important to you your veterinary team? What does, what does a good day look like for you here? Can you tell me, tell me about, some of the, the team challenges you've had to work through in the last 12 months. Tell me the story of the last graduate that you looked after. What happened? What did you learn? What did you get right? What did you get wrong? What will be different or the same for me this time around? those searching questions. Hold on. I might offend them. If they're offended by questions like that. They're not the right practice, right?
They're not ready for [00:48:00] you. So do yourself a favor and find one that is and can answer those questions. So, you know, it takes a bit of courage to do. Doesn't have to be asked in a rude way. But the answers will be, I think, more revealing than some of the questions that generally get asked and asked to see evidence if they've got a plan, if they've got documents asked to see those documents. Like, what, what will my mentorship meetings look like?
What, what, what is the learning and development plan here?
Yeah.
If, like right now, I could show you the documents that we will use to help you manage and develop your skills. And that not just the first year, but the first three years, like that's mapped out already. I can't show you the order that you're gonna learn them in, 'cause that'll be case dependent and, and your skill and aptitude dependent. But I can look you in the eye and make you a promise that if you have the same value set and you're driven to develop your own skills and you're willing to contribute to your development and our culture, [00:49:00] and by God, we'll contribute to your skills and we'll look after you.
I think interviews, especially when you're a new grad and you've never really done a proper interview process before, is really nerve wracking. And you turn up and you're like, you're sweaty
Oh, you're
you're, you're clammy and you're like, I've forgotten everything I've ever done in my life.
I have nothing valuable to say. But I think there was a real turning point in when I was interviewing, I don't really know when it happened, but I kind of, at the point where I interviewed for vet schools, I was terrible. I could not interview well at all. And I think by the point where I was doing my last few interviews, , in my final year of vet school.
I had a kind of realization where I was like, actually I'm interviewing them as much as they're interviewing me. And it's not just that they want me, but I need to want them as well. And that [00:50:00] definitely changed my, uh, approach and attitude in interviews because I was suddenly a lot more, like, not necessarily a lot more confident, but a lot more, open to wanting to question them and be more engaged in the interview process rather than it just be feeling like an interrogation.
Did you have any favorite questions that you liked or started to ask that yielded useful answers?
I often asked what they do for their vets outside of work that is to support the, their staff and yeah, what they do that's not just, oh, we'll give you some extra consult time for the first six months on the job. And like, how do you actually support people when they're struggling that's not just in the clinic.
and then I always asked about. Their [00:51:00] willingness with doing things like training and CE and that kind of thing. So a lot of practices were in the, in the states, a lot of practices have a set budget for CE and they also have like, you can spend this money, but it also has to be on these topics. And if you wanna go and do this other course, that's gonna come out of your pocket and it's not gonna count.
You'll have to take holiday time to go and do it because we don't see it as valuable training for us. So it was a lot of that attitude towards how I could grow as a vet and things that I'm interested in, in practicing and whether they would be supportive of my interests. And a lot of the time people were like, oh, actually that's really interesting.
We could really benefit from someone who's interested in exotic pets because we have, you know, a good number of [00:52:00] clients on our database that do have exotics and no one in the practice wants to see you chinchilla so great that you wanna go and learn more. Or sometimes you get people going, oh, actually we don't do exotics here.
And I'm like, okay, well. Great. Like I'm not expecting to be some like specialist in the next year, but it's something that I'm interested in and I do wanna develop in that area. And if you've completely cut it off before we've even met, then probably not a great option.
Exactly.
Mental Health
So vet Is a demanding, it's a challenging career, what are you doing to make sure that you are okay?
I do triathlon,, because, no, that's not, that's actually a very incomplete answer. I have always been very good at paying attention to energy. I, [00:53:00] I know that maybe twice in my career I was actually very unhappy. I mean, listen, there's moments, every job I've had, there's been moments where I've been unhappy. as long as the trend was broadly happy and stable, then I kind of got to realize I had a very cyclical relationship with my job and that sometimes I would be unhappy. And I knew that if I didn't pour too much emotional fuel myself onto the fire by storytelling things that weren't true, that it would come good. And it did. Like there was always a case on the corner that was gonna cheer me up. was a relationship that would settle down. So I thought that was useful to be able to pay attention to, to energy. quite an energetic person. I like, like many veterinarians, you know, vets are usually really creative people and they're often top, they're high achieving. They're often not just high achieving intellectually, like vets have [00:54:00] loads of other skills, so don't forget to indulge or scratch those itches. So for me, um, I mean I should have, I don't know how I ended up a vet. Lucky, I mean, in some ways, like I just, I continually marvel about how the hell I got into and outta vet school. And because, you know, the better parts of my report cards were sports and, and artistic endeavors, and mostly sports, I love sport. I love movement, I love nature.
And so I actually, I, I spend, uh, you know, a reasonable amount of time every week exercising, but I also love socializing with my friends. . Second practice, I had some, you know, we had a really tight group of friends. Neighbors who just happened to be our age and also friends in the practice, and so we just surfed life waves laughing at all the crap stuff we had to deal with and just everyone, everyone had stuff that sucked and [00:55:00] it, it helped to go to the pub frequently to laugh at that and, but to talk about all the good things that happened as well, having,
Yeah,
interest matters.
I, I'm doing a permaculture course right now. .
I bought a farm and I'm,
What.
Yeah, know. That's a whole other story. , Well, it's, it's land, but more than a farm, and I I mean, to make it a place that's, that's an amazing permaculture experience.
Wow.
I, I have sports, I have friends. I, I read a lot, I write a lot, a lot of my work is what I would say. Like, I, I've leaned into podcasting and writing articles and things like that.
I find endless being creative, endlessly energizing. I
Yeah.
spinning my wheels and not getting things done or, or getting stuck to be quite stressful. And veterinary medicine was great because you could just, do work. It would just, it just landed on you and you could just do it and get it done and feel like you were always moving forward. But
Yeah.
was I felt like I was on a conveyor belt. I didn't really notice [00:56:00] that, but I felt I was on a conveyor belt without some purpose into my own life.
Yeah.
that's when I moved into practice ownership. 'cause I could control that purpose better. But, but now. As I, as I sort of probably come to the end of my ownership career and move more into full mentor coach mode. Um, I also find myself wanting to connect more with nature. And so, you know, for, for me, that's just where the energy's going. So I'm paying attention and, and leaning into where I, I see and feel good energy.
Veterinary medicine had great energy. I say focus on your energy and where it's low, where it's draining. Do something to stem the flow and where you have good energy, make sure you, you build that into your life.
Focus on your energy. Movement for me, exercise for me, reading, being productive, uh, in lots of ways and helping people.
Like I know I'm at my best when I'm helping others, but [00:57:00] that can be a burden as well, right? Like, because, 'cause that can lead to a bit of martyrdom if you're not careful or giving too much yourself. So the other thing is knowing your boundaries and you know where to switch off. And knowing that it is okay to switch off from veterinary medicine as well.
There
yeah.
to your being than just being a vet. Your identity needs many, many strands. It needs to be a tapestry, not a monoculture.
How can new grads set boundaries and find a good work-life balance whilst still being able to grow and develop in the profession, but not burn out completely?
. So, so what we're really talking about is like if you set boundaries that are too narrow to constrained, what you're effectively doing is you're removing all risk from the situation.
You're trying to control
Yeah.
or, or control energies too much. And when you do that, you [00:58:00] risk staying in this zone of no growth in, you're staying in comfort. I don't want to go in that operating room because I'm, I might risk a complication or it might bleed, or I might get it wrong. Yeah.
you might.
Yeah.
go in and you're never gonna gain the skill. Now, if you have, if your hand eye coordination sucks and you're just a menace with a scalpel, then maybe that's not the right place for you. But that's about finding out where your skills are.
Everybody's got a skillset. Everybody's got something they can be the best at in the world. So where do those things start matching up and, and how can you find a job in a role that fits the shape of your skillset? You know, the gifts that you have. And I think starting to understand where your gifts lie is important, but you have to go try things in order to understand that you have to push the edges of this experiential envelope in order to start learning where the things that you connect with and you're good at are, and, and where other people want you [00:59:00] to be.
'cause there's value in having you there are, right?
Yeah.
And so I think boundaries, I don't think you should set too many boundaries to start with. I think you should lean into it. Like, fuck it. If you showed up to veterinary medicine thinking this was gonna be comfortable and you want to go, you wanna, you wanna do three days a week and you wanna stop at 5:00 PM really, how are you gonna learn?
How are you gonna get that experience? Lean into it. Like if you don't have that energy when you're young, when are you going to get that energy? That's not about being, that's just about setting too
Yeah.
a boundary. It's got, it's got nothing to, with, to do with me being a feral Gen Xer, it's got nothing to do with, and I'm, I'm deliberately using these titles, right? It's got nothing to do with you being Gen Z snowflake. deliberately using a title.
It's got everything to do with your willingness to [01:00:00] suffer. if you're going to
Yeah,
you are going to suffer a bit, that's sleeplessness or stress, because you're going to be out of your comfort zone as soon as you get outside of comfort.
There is some degree of suffering. Like if I want
yeah.
for my country and triathlon, I admit that's an extreme thing. I'm gonna have to go suffer on the bike. I'd like,
Yeah.
back to training yesterday morning and I trained, there's a 50 meter pool right on the beach in front of me. Sounds idyllic.
And if it was California it would be. But this is the south coast of England and it's January. It sucked so bad. Like the air temperature. I don't know what, the temperature wasn't snowing, but it was blowing an easterly gale, which is not the way the warm wind blows here. And I walked in, it's raining hard, I'm soaked before I even get to the pool, I look at the pool temperature and it's an open air pool and it's, I'm, [01:01:00] and I'm gonna have to look this up in Fahrenheit, but it
Don't worry because I dunno the conversion.
you don't know it.
I've been here psych eight months and I'm struggling Whenever someone says fahe,
Okay, so it, it, it was 61 degrees, 61 Fahrenheit,
give it Celsius as well.
16 and a half,
Oh
Aha. Ugh. My shoulder's hurting. I don't know why. And I'm like, I, I would almost rather do anything than this right now, but in June when I have to pull on a team, MGB bib, and represent my country, I, that's, that's not the way it works. Like I can't have one
yeah.
the other. I have to suffer So what is your version of that? If you wanna be a great vet, if you wanna feel, you know what the answer, the antidote to imposter is, or the opposite of imposter, belonging. And if you want to belong, then you're gonna have to [01:02:00] show up, learn some skills, and contribute. 'cause that's the only way it happens. If you wanna belong in a community, you're gonna have to give something to that community. have to learn the rules, learn where your skills fit, and then go do it. Go deliver something. and you have to make sacrifices. And so the number of times, like when I wanted to learn how to do cruciate surgery, I simple lateral suture. I didn't know how to do that. So I, I, I found a way to do it. I found the local Fox rescue place that, you know, whenever he euthanized a fox. So can you bring it down and would you mind if I performed ati, you know, arthrotomy on it? Just learn the joint approach. And then, and where did I do that? Because I couldn't do that in the middle of the bustling prep room in the middle of the day.
Nobody wanted a stinky fox then get fleas from the fox that got brought in. when I do it, half past seven [01:03:00] in the evening, when I got done with my evening consults, went back down I, I, I learned a joint approach, had the textbook open doing it, I could have gone to the pub, I could have had dinner, but I had an objective, a learning goal in mind. And when I did it, I felt like I'd accomplished something. So that generated good hormones in me, happy hormones. Right? Now, I'm not saying you should sacrifice everything on the altar of veterinary medicine. I'm not saying it should be today like it was then. 'cause we had it extreme and I wouldn't, I wouldn't wish what I went through on, on-call weekends on anybody. They were tough and they weren't appropriate. It wasn't fair. But it's also, if your goal is to get to be a good vet and not feel like an imposter and feel like you belong and do something, you're going to have to get uncomfortable. So don't set. Too many boundaries to start with. But notice your energy and when you have to pull back, and don't be afraid to say no when that right moment is, but you will get more [01:04:00] energy by progressing towards a goal that matters to you than by trying to conserve everything behind a wall because somebody told you that.
You've got to set boundaries. You've gotta know yourself to start with. Okay? And, And I don't think I can give a prescription for that, but I know that if you, if you set too many boundaries too soon that you will not grow.
And I know that if you don't pay attention to your energy and you don't set boundaries when they're needed, then you will collapse at some point.
Final Questions
Okay. I think before we wrap everything up, I have a little quick fire question round, and then I always like to finish with two questions that I ask all our guests. So first quickfire question is, what is one thing that everyone should ask at an interview?
Where's the money? No. Uh, don't, [01:05:00] don't ask that. I mean, that's obviously implied. . I honestly think a really great question is important to you, or what does success look like for you as a practice, for this role? Because you, you know, and I hope you get an honest answer to that 'cause., I think , the, the part B of that question is how will you know when it's being delivered? I doubt that's in
Yeah.
advert anywhere, but if you know what good looks like and you know how it's being measured, then you're gonna know how to gauge your own progress and your own success, and if it's a good fit
Yeah. What is one thing that you wish clinics stopped doing?
Turning clients away because they can't afford care.
Yeah.
it, it scars our hearts as veterinary professionals find a way. There's a plan B, there's a Plan C, hell, there's a plan E, what I mean. But I hear of places , [01:06:00] turning patients away because they haven't got exorbitant sums of money for what are very basic things to do.
Block cat is just example. Block cat, seconds in a catheter to unblock it. Blood works great. Fluids are gray, but the thing that's gonna kill it is the blockage. So do what you can, and, don't turn people away 'cause they can't do everything. Find,
Yeah.
that works.
what are you reading right now?
, I'm, uh, actually started to reading a book by George mBio, Uh, it's called Regenesis and it's about importance of soil and soil health. Which
rock and roll. Like having a little place to land in the country and reconnecting to nature. Like I, I, I've noticed like recently I, I'm much more of an anxious person. I used to be, I'm certain that that's through social media use. Uh, and I mean, obviously the [01:07:00] climate, state of the world and leadership in general is not helping, all of that off. And having a place in the country and just doing
Yeah.
things in my hands and, and becoming more analog has, is incredibly good for your mental health. So if anyone wants to come and volunteer in my farm and help me, helped me build Wild Meadows and swales full of orchards and work with a local, local farmers to gr sheep and chickens after them and
I mean, when I'm next in the uk I will absolutely be there.
just, um, actually got a brick to, you know, the little, like,
literally got one this
did you,
Yeah. Yeah.
I I'm obsessed with it. I have used it for like, maybe, maybe a week or 10 days. I was really not very long.
Yep.
And I just block Facebook, [01:08:00] Instagram, TikTok, and I've found that I have it blocked now most of the day.
I'd say like 22 hours or something where it's just off, um, overnight. So then when I wake up, I don't have all my notifications and like, ding, ding, ding. It's great. And then I've also noticed now that even when it's not blocked, I've now got it in my head that it's just not there anyway.
And
I'm using it so much less and I'm so, and it's literally been like seven days, but I, I, love it.
I love that. Like it's, how funny, I literally just got one seven days ago as well. I came back from VMX in Orlando and it got delivered whilst I was there. And, uh, I, I'm, I'm using it.
as well. Um,
Yeah.
also deleting the common perpetrators off my phone 'cause it's just, it's too much.
It is a lot. Anyway, quick four questions. That's got into a hold of a conversation [01:09:00] anyway. What is, I've got two more.
Quick
What's one belief about VetMed that you had early on that changed as you progressed?
The belief that changed as I progressed was that I was the important thing that, that the sun sh out in my arse as the veterinarian. ' cause that's, that's, that's what you're taught from day one. Like I was luckily never at the top of any of my classes. But you are, you know, we're all smart and many people in vet medicine were the top of their classes. And everybody likes that. Your parents like that 'cause they're awfully proud of you And you know, you're going to vet school and oh, goodness me, you know, that's really hard to do. So it is just there that, that, that you are exceptional and this sort of exceptionalism reads a kind of arrogance, or it certainly did in me. And, and so that I had to [01:10:00] vanquish. I didn't do it fast enough. But I worked with enough lioness that kicked the shit outta me enough of often enough that I got the message. But if I have any regrets in my career, it's, it's that thought, meant that I wasn't always that other people might've needed me to be I needed. I need it to be for, them and for me.
And the last quick question is, what is one mistake you are glad you made?
You know, I, I made mistakes big and small, and some of 'em I have come to realize they, you know, the gift was in the mistake, but they were still really hard. And, and it would've been nice if I hadn't made them. So I, I, it's hard to think of ones that I'm I made. . Every time you make a mistake, you've got an opportunity to learn. And, and then in a sense, that's what a lot of learning [01:11:00] is, is, is failing small on the way to winning big. And I've won so big in the relationships that I've had in veterinary medicine with the clients, with the teammates that, you know, with, with the people I've been in business with, I've won so big. It's, it's given me, such joy and everything. Um, and it's just such a great place. So I think every one of them is, is something I'm glad I did,
Fair enough. Okay. My final two questions are if you're a new grad again tomorrow, what would you do differently?
I, I don't know that I would, 'cause if ripple effect, if you change one thing, there's a whole bunch of unintended second order effects that are gonna come in. And
Yeah.
I, I, I had and continue to have a blast. I wouldn't, I wouldn't do it. This, this, this thing life, [01:12:00] you know, it's, it's a gift. One, one thing I've learned, is that people matter very much to me. And in veterinary medicine we have, there's lots of people who we've had who are not with us now they can't, they've not, they've suffered, they've struggled to the point where it's not, I don't feel like it's worth going. And I know this wasn't a question, and I think I'm really good at checking in on people when I sense something's not right.
Now, sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm wrong, but I always ask, are you okay?
Yeah.
Are you fine? What's going on with you? If something doesn't seem right, do you want to talk? And there's no amount of time, uh, that I wouldn't give to a friend if they're struggling with something like that. Because there's. There's no amount of time that my dog wouldn't be happy also walking with me in that situation. And there's nothing I do that would be more important [01:13:00] than, being there, uh, in, in a moment like that. So, uh, don't think that really answers the question, but I think what I would do is just make sure that I'm more tuned in to when things don't seem right.
Yeah. Nice. Well, my final question is if you could give one piece of advice to students and new grads, what would it be?
Get after it. Get after it. Get out your own way. Get after it. If you get out your own way means get outta your own head. This thing is a gift. This thing is amazing, but get out your way.
Get out there. Enjoy it. And that doesn't mean it's easy and it's not. It's bloody hard. But the rewards are so abundant animals matter to people, which means you all matter and you've got such an opportunity to make a difference [01:14:00] in your communities. Um, get out there and do that. Do that. Make the dream that you signed up to invent your medicine reel and get out your way in the process of doing it.
Outro
Dave, thank you so much. I feel like we could probably talk for another couple of hours on so many different things, but your advice has been amazing, and I'm sure a lot of people listening will, you know, have more confidence going into a new job and an interview, but also just with VetMed as a whole in general.
So thank you so much for, for being here and given your time.
Well, thank you for the opportunity lot and thank you for your doing and know you're supporting, supporting people as well a ton of respect for that. So good on you.
Thank you.
opportunity to talk. I really enjoyed it.
, Thank you. If you know someone else who might find this useful, please share it with them and if you'd like to hear more conversations like this, then make sure you are following the [01:15:00] podcast. So our next episodes come up for you. If you have any suggestions for topics that you wanna hear, or guests that you'd like us to have on, then find us on Instagram and TikTok at Vista and let us know who you want.
Dave, people find out about you?
Dr dave nickel.com. Uh, or you can search for So You're a Vet Now what? And you'll find the book and course materials and stuff like that.
Perfect.
to find. Always happy to hear from people.
Thank you so much again, Dave. And thank you to everyone else for listening. We'll see you next time.