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The Wayfarers are Experts & Investigators Navigating the Reality of What it is to be Human with Evidence & Experience: Fruits > Faith
Kristin is a Relationship Investigator, Former Teacher & Human Development Specialist
Matt is a Criminal Trial Attorney, Former Prosecutor & Advocate for Juveniles
H.C. “Hil” is a Criminal Investigator, Veteran, Retired FBI Agent & Cactus Expert
PIETY & NERVOUS SYSTEM WARNING - SOMETIMES WE USE RUDE WORDS! Topics include Drugs, Sex, Death & Violence and also Abuse, Neglect, Abandonment & Betrayal.
We use raw and vivid imagery and choose words that explore what is real.
So this historical through line is connected to sex, authority,
Hilary:and politics.
Matt:Look, there's more history, and there's interesting there's been a number of things here, but that's at least a historical look at Mormonism through the historical lens, at least for today's purposes is is is is worth saying, okay. We've got Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. And then you have Brigham Young and the Salt Lake people. And you have Emma, Emma Smith and the Community of Christ people. And then you have Warren Jeffs and the Colorado City people.
Matt:And they they seem like completely different people. And and in many ways, they are. When you talk to them, they they definitely have these differences, and yet they have this interesting shared language and and symbology, and they have the same a lot of the same look, I'm just gonna say, their theology is extremely weak. Like, talking to a anyone with a some Mormon background, some connection to Joseph Smith Junior as a faith leader and as a prophet, their theology and their philosophy is just extremely weak. They they know Bible.
Matt:They know scriptures, but it's so out of context and presented in a way that's so conceptually and just ideologically, theologically different than than any other Christian church. That's why the debate is, are Mormons Christian? And and that's that's a conversation for another day. It's I think it's a lot more complicated than yes and no. And it really does get into who, the man Jesus is, who their God is, and this idea of his is Jesus fully man and fully god?
Matt:And is he the one singular only god or is there also another being? And the fact that Mormons believe that there are two, it really makes them a little more polytheistic in from a theory of mind perspective. And we'll get into theory of mind and how that's connected to theology and all these types of things. But that is that a fair framework Yeah. It is.
Matt:Of the history?
Hilary:I almost I was gonna interrupt you earlier when you mentioned that, you know, the the the imagery that that Joseph Smith, experienced in the Grove. There's actually three. You said there's just two.
Matt:Mhmm.
Hilary:The angel. He he saw the angel too. So there's three experiences.
Matt:Right. He at some point, he he says that a literal angel
Hilary:Yeah. So there's that component Yeah. In addition
Matt:to Christ and God. And and that person, that that angel is particularly connected to the Book of Mormon
Hilary:Yes.
Matt:The brass plates
Hilary:Yes.
Matt:That resulted in the this historical record of the what's identified as the Nephite people who are came from Jerusalem and are ultimately a Jewish bloodline because that's important to be part of the chosen people. Yeah. And eventually be
Hilary:One of the 12 tribes.
Matt:One of the 12 tribes of Israel. And in fact, the the Mormon people say that they are the ones that have authority Mhmm. Through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That they are Israel. Yeah.
Matt:And they are Zion. And so you'll hear Mormons talk about Zion. And they'll talk about they'll talk about Israel and that they are the cause. And this their their their leader was Russell Nelson just recently last year, talked about this idea of gathering Mhmm. Israel and that they, the Mormon people, are the ones that are the the the basis, the people that will gather Israel.
Matt:Yeah. And again, this theology, this this royal Lineage. This lineage. Yeah. And these concepts of lineage and kings and kings and priests and succession, right, are so tied into who these people in this religion and this church is.
Matt:And it's it's just a fascinating thing, especially today in 2025 as you have gotten this continued blending of religion and politics in America. And it's happening at the federal level, and it's happening at this at every state level and within cities where the politicians are it's unclear if they are religious leaders.
Hilary:Yeah.
Matt:And if they're speaking about spirituality and theology or, or or politics because they've become one. And this is again so historically, not just historically. This is what the Mormon people have been for their entire history, is this melding. Yeah. There's no difference between politics and religion, and the politics is their religion.
Hilary:I'm curious, like, what did you think of England and royal and the the king and the queen and, you know, Mormon? Like, what did you ever view, you know, Brigham Young as a king? Or
Matt:No. I I I didn't. And I I that part of it, I don't I don't you know, growing up, you don't really you're not taught the history.
Hilary:No. And that's why I don't know anything about Emma. I wasn't ever taught. I wasn't the wife, and she was a wonderful lady. I've seen pictures, you know, that they have on
Matt:Because growing up, it wasn't about it it it wasn't it was really appealing to Joseph's authority, not Brigham's. And but what was most significant growing up was this idea of line of authority. And so it was mainly about the prophet today Yeah. Is the god. Yeah.
Matt:But that The dude.
Hilary:But that concept isn't anything new. It was just reimagined that it would be this way.
Matt:But in the but I'm saying by the in the in the, you know, early eighties when I started to be, you know, kind of groomed kid child of the eighties. At that point, there had been such a complete sea change in theology and in things. You know, the the other big thing that happened, in in the Brighamite tradition is they they also did not allow black people to have No. The their priesthood.
Hilary:And see, we did. We did blacks before women.
Matt:Okay. Oh,
Hilary:yeah. And
Matt:and and this is what? Seventy eight, I think it was, was when it finally happened. So I'm, what, three years old. And that was a big deal. And that was a so that was a change.
Matt:And so I'm I'm growing at a at a time when that's that's happened and that's new. And then the other thing that happened in the, what, sixties? Yeah. Sixties is is there was a thing in the in the Salt Lake amongst the Salt Lake people called, correlation, where they now centralized all lessons and Sunday school and the teachings and these types of new words before. It was very it was a little more, people have We
Hilary:went through the same thing.
Matt:It was called Regional control and they could do you know, there was a lot more Right.
Hilary:No. It got standardized with the community of Christ and it became what was known as the new curriculum.
Matt:Mhmm. So but this idea of of theocracy was presented more as a post death. Right? An afterlife concept very much. Whereas early, if you really go into the theology and the historic the history of Mormonism, it's very much a no.
Matt:It's happening here and now. Joseph Smith should be the the president of The United States so that God's true church can Be manifested. The the right. And and In its fullness. Yeah.
Matt:And so growing up, it was it was less about that, and yet I certainly observed and and and knew, about how politics you know, there was there's the the legend. The, yeah, the the legend that, at some point at the end of end of the time, the constitution would hang by a thread and that a Mormon would be the cause of saving it. And so it was a joke that when Mitt Romney was running for president that that was the right signal. The the the manifestation of this prophecy of of of because now and so, you know, and it's just so funny because it's like we're in the latter days. Boy, signs of the times.
Matt:Like, yeah. When are you not in the latter days? Right? When does the when does the world not ending? Right?
Matt:We're obviously, we're here at at a very chaotic and and scary time in 2012.
Hilary:Be a surprise. It's supposed to be like a thief in the night.
Matt:Well, but that that that but the the but their again, their politics and their influence in especially in Arizona where where where we live and where we're from. You know, Mormons have have had political power. They've they've had judicial power. They've had, you know, a lot of influence over, education and, local politics. And it's definitely a thing that, that that Mormons are expected to participate Mhmm.
Matt:And are are motivated to, you know, take these positions. And when they do see, they're they're they are in their positions, their political positions, as representatives of their church
Hilary:Yeah.
Matt:And and and are advancing their theology, not as an independent body. They can say, you know, this is this is me as my role and my and the school board
Hilary:Separate it out. Yeah.
Matt:No. No. No. Those things are always married. And so to see them become married in beyond Mormonism and within the especially Republican politics Yes.
Matt:Is nothing real new to me.
Hilary:Okay.
Matt:And and and and but this idea of king and and that no. I always saw that as no. That's afterlife stuff. And and yet I don't know that I I I think I might be an anomaly on that, but it the but, again, the melding of political power and social power and God tells me so is is really, significant, especially when you wrap it up with a theology of sex that Joseph Smith had, that Brigham Young had, the the impact of sex on just the the progression within the Brighamite, group, especially as they transitioned away from polygamy and yet maintained it Mhmm. In from a from a theological standpoint.
Matt:So, you know, men today do have, you know, they they have this this idea of the temple and being sealed. That's significant. You say, this family, this very, familial organization continues after death. And so when you have our we have men today, the leaders of the church, many many of them, the of the Brighamite church, they have been sealed to multiple women. So Mormon heaven, Brighamite heaven, Joseph Smith's heaven, conceived of by many, many Mormons, they've we just had a conversation with one yesterday, is there will be these existing relationships where a man will have many women that are their wives and therefore have many half siblings.
Matt:Right? Siblings that are half siblings to each other in the in the afterlife component. But this theology, the way that they conceive of this in sexuality and relationships and marriages, it impacts the way they parent, the way they child, and the way they interact with other Mormons. Mhmm. And, you know, we well, it it impacts, you know, all the way down to their positions on, you know, gay, lesbian, and and, and and queer individuals.
Matt:And that's a big religious battle within Mormonism, and therefore, it's very natural to just make that a political battle. And to say that in doing this politically and taking these political positions, we're actually taking religious and spiritual positions. Mhmm. And so they're justified in imposing their will, their beliefs, their theology on others because their theology is this institutional power to have control over other people's lives because for them conceptually, everyone is Mormon. They just don't know it yet and haven't been converted yet.
Matt:And so that's, again, this this that's what makes, political, an invocation of religion in a political context. It's why I'm so cautious of it, and I'm saying as a how about this? As a Republican, as a Christian, as a Mormon, as a man, as a cisgender or a cis hetero het cis het man, I am not just cautious. That way of politicking and that way of religion
Hilary:Yeah.
Matt:Is dangerous.
Hilary:And I would say, in my background as an investigator, it's so charged. Mhmm. It is like that is a charge.
Matt:Mhmm. And, you know, some some now that that leads us really to a number of things that we're gonna talk about practically. Now I guess we should announce. Since we're talking about religion, there's a reason why. And this is, for all intents and purposes, an expression, a first amendment expression of our religion and our church.
Matt:And this on a Sunday on February was it 02/16/2025 on the Sabbath is our first formal church. And we are as a as a with a shared history in Mormonism. And under the community of Christ umbrella see, because Chris and I grew up in Brighamite Church, and we're gonna have that we're gonna have our personal background Yeah. And we're gonna go through that with a much deeper dive, on another recording. But our history
Kristin:More to come.
Matt:Professionally has been interconnected with the tragedy and the catastrophic effects that this ideology, the Mormon ideology, has had on families and particularly children. And how it has been so destructive in their cognitive development, their intimacy development, their sexual development, and their mind, development. And this is from a professional, perspective. We also have our own personal, history. But this week, just this week, two things happened in the realm of politics and religion.
Matt:And one was that the Brighamite branch, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, has been embroiled, and they have for many many years and many decades in, lawsuits and litigation surrounding their handling of child sexual abuse, situations within their among their people and within the confines of their religion.
Hilary:Is that a good way to say it though? Their handling of it?
Matt:Yeah. There there there are hands involved. That's
Hilary:Okay. Hands involved. Hands on.
Matt:And then that but it's the manner in which, as an institution, what is in fact their duty to the children of its member donors? When an ecclesiastical leader finds out that a child is being has is having is the victim of an intimacy crime. You see, we we we'll talk about crime, and we have we will talk about crime specifically in this context and in another context that we're gonna bring up. But I refer to it as intimacy crimes. And intimacy crimes can certainly be about the body, and we can focus on the violation, of the body.
Matt:But one of the things that makes intimacy crimes that that do relate to a violation of the body so impactful is the betrayal that happens to the mind. And the way that that violation of the mind and the body causes so much so many complex emotions, which include shame. And it impacts identity. And this very thing, the impact of identity and the thrusting upon again, not a great word to use in this context. The foisting upon the mind as, of of shame.
Matt:And the way that children are forced to internalize shame and make that shame and that experience a part of their individual identity and their religious and spiritual identity. Because if it's happening in families, it's happening with other members, and then this religious organization, this institution, and the firm and the church get involved in this very, very intimate experience that impacts the mind. And so these lawsuits go to that question, what is this institution's, this religion, this church's responsibility and obligation to a child when they, their leaders, simply become a player Mhmm. A character within one of the most impactful and tragic things that a child will experience in their life. Because now we're not in the area of churches.
Matt:We're in the area of courtrooms and crime scenes. And so now you have ecclesiastical leaders who are getting in the way of an investigation or at least a part of the investigation. And then it becomes like any witness, are they cooperative, or are they conciliatory? Do they conceal?
Hilary:Mhmm.
Matt:Not conciliatory. Right? That's Yeah. Do they conceal things? Do they obstruct?
Matt:Do they have the legal ability and right to obstruct? And whose right is it? Are they advancing the institution's rights and privilege? Are they advancing the accused's rights and privileged? And what about the most vulnerable?
Matt:What are their rights and privileges in the context of the laws of our country? And that institution in particular has gone into the world and gone into America, and their firm and their money is lobbying for very specific laws pertaining to investigations and crimes involving children. And they take on positions in legislatures. Mhmm. And they vote and they write laws based on their theology.
Matt:Now you have and then you have judges who have robes. And if they're Mormon judges and they're basing decisions based on their individualized moral justice system that's in their head, and it's instructed by this theology. Well, now we have, again, this blending of politics and religion happening every day. And it happens in Arizona, and it happens in Oregon, and it happens all across it happens in in West Virginia. And so we're gonna talk about a series and a constellation of cases in class in courtrooms, in crime scenes, and how this religion and these people are a very relevant player in politics and laws and in the execution of these laws and therefore questions of justice.
Matt:Sure. The other thing that happened that's just fascinating that's in a non Mormon context, but is directly relevant, and that was congresswoman Nancy Mace took to the floor of congress in an opportunity that congress people have to make a record. And she made some very, very scorched earth, to borrow her language, and religiously motivated accusations and allegations pertaining to intimacy crimes. And she has also blended these religious themes and concepts and theology and god. And in using that, it or applying and and and using and affecting the leverages of political power in order to advance her own personal tragedy.
Matt:And so these case studies, these examples in the law and in courtrooms and the touch on crime scenes in classrooms are really questions of theology Mhmm. And religion and spirituality.
Hilary:Keep it separate. Keep it separate.
Matt:Right. But they're and Yeah. I wish they were. Right? But since they've all decided to blend them, then I'll blend them.
Matt:Yeah. And so I said, this is our freedom of speech, religious exercise, and religious speech for us to talk about the theology and the politics of other political individuals and religious individuals that have not been shy about about declaring their authority from god and have not been shy in demanding that the things that are the thoughts in their head that they claim from god ought to have effect in the world.
Hilary:In the name of God.
Matt:In the name of God. And so since they have said this is how that their thoughts and their beliefs and their theology about God and their very unique and individualized subjective religion ought to affect the lives of other people, including other people's children, well, that's something that I'm interested in and that I'm interested in politically, religiously, theologically, and morally. Because the one through line in any time a politician invokes the name of god or a religious individual attempts to invoke the power of politics is that children and women are disempowered and silenced. And that has been my observation and the thing that has just happened and happened and continues to happen in politics. Look, this is not new.
Matt:If I really read my New Testament, especially the gospels of, you know, the teachings of the Jesus of Nazareth, it was kinda his message. It was a criticism of the way that politics and religious leaders were married in oppressing the people. Yeah. In the manner in which they were hypocrites in weaponizing these religious and theological ideas in order to simply enact and gain power, wealth, dominion.
Kristin:Sounds so familiar.
Matt:That's what Socrates was complaining about in in so much of of the the platonic literature. Is how prosecutors of the time were simply invoking God and theology and saying that they were God's justice. They were the ones that would bring punishment. Now, this is again related to so much of what the Mormon people as an institution, as a church, as the firm, do in courtrooms all the time. And it's what Nancy Mace as a congresswoman did.
Matt:She said she is God's justice. And so we can evaluate those things from a from an maybe an interesting and educational standpoint because it gives us insight to what's going on in the world. Mhmm. But as part of that, we can provide very tangible and practical tools of actual protection and resources to the most vulnerable families who are not being taken care of by their religious institutions, by their religious leaders, by their political leaders, and by the firms that represent each. Because these kids continue to be on their own.
Matt:And the one through line that's happened as we've been talking to so many religious people is they've all confessed to us how unwell they are. Yeah. That their identity is not good. Mhmm. That they are experiencing so much stress and discombobulation and, and and and just spiritual Deficit.
Matt:Yeah. Unhealth. Yeah. Yeah.
Kristin:They're just all in search of something.
Matt:Something. Because whatever intertwined together. Whatever is is currently being sold to them in from a religious, standpoint, from a political standpoint, and I'll include from a therapeutic and psychological Yeah. Standpoint is just not serving them.
Kristin:No.
Matt:And and and and so this idea of what spiritual health is is a is irrelevant and and is something that matters because well, let me ask you all. What what is this idea of oh, sorry. What we've been talking about right now is is actually this concept called truth. What is true? And, again, both Socrates and Jesus had, discussions and lessons, sermons on truth Mhmm.
Matt:And what is truth. Right? And we've talked before, there's political truth, power. There's religious truth, right, story. But there must be something closer to reality, which I call honest truth.
Matt:And that's why this very project is an honest inquiry. Yeah. An inquiry and investigation into truth, justice, into what actually goes on in the real world of politics, in the real classrooms, in real crime scenes, in real courtrooms around the country, but particularly in the state because this is my home. And there's enough going on here in my home for me to focus on and talk about, but ultimately, not just talk about and bitch about it, but to provide tangible resources to families to be able to feel more safe, more secure, more stable, and to reduce the impact of trauma in their lives. So there's less injuries.
Matt:There's less dysfunction. There's less disconnection. Because the thing about intimacy crimes is they prevent individuals who experience those intimacy crimes from having a voice, an actual voice, about the things that they care the most about. And that intimacy, when intimacy isn't expressed, when a when a when a kid, when a person isn't able to express the real thoughts in their head, to communicate what has actually happened to them and the shame and the anger and the emotions that they're feeling, well, that prevents them from connecting with another. Sure.
Matt:And intimacy not processed gets expressed too often as a rage, as terror, as grief, and as despair. And when a person is in a constant state of those complex emotions, that in and of itself is very threatening. Yes. And that in and of itself, these constant feelings of complex emotions, terror, rage, grief, despair, feelings of shame, That results in very dangerous and risky behaviors. And so you get issues that come with, substance use and misuse.
Matt:And you get issues that come with violence use and misuse. Mhmm. See, because sometimes there is an appropriate use of violence.
Hilary:Yeah. Well, and just threats alone.
Matt:Yeah.
Hilary:There's The threat of violence. The threat of whatever.
Matt:The threat of will I have to respond with violence? Yes. Even. What a what a terrifying thing that is for for for peaceful people.
Hilary:Which is why there's so many guns in this country.
Matt:Mhmm.
Hilary:Let's face it.
Matt:Absolutely. And I'm a gun guy, but absolutely. The use and misuse of sex. The use and misuse of parent and child relationships. The use and misuse of, again, substance and drugs, and the way that all of these things, you know, the the consequence of deaths of despair, accidents, crime, illness that could have been prevented.
Matt:These these result in such disconnection and spirit spiritual emergencies and spiritual injuries. Which is to say injuries and emergencies to one's identity and relationship to other people. Mhmm. And that is maddening. And so often when that that happens and that mind is, just fractured
Hilary:Or not developed.
Matt:And or not developed
Hilary:Yeah.
Matt:And fractured while not being developed. Yes. And then Humpty Dumpty never put down put put together again. Those it feels maddening. It feels like the brain and the mind doesn't work real well, and there's real strain and stress and pain that happens in that.
Matt:And that's the one universal thing that's happening among all the religions. And when I say religion, that has a lot of meaning even within the secular world because there are religions within the psychological community. There are religions which in the within the food and nutrition and, exercise communities. Right? They have prohibitions and they have beliefs about consciousness and beliefs about morality, and and and and beliefs about fundamentals of sexual identity and sexual expression, which are identical to what the rule these these fundamentalist religions are doing as well.
Matt:Mhmm. And that's why we have a cultural battle. It's not a cultural battle. It's a battle over theology, spirituality, God, and morality.
Kristin:Simple. That's yep.
Matt:And so when we break it apart that way, we can really get into the guts of these ideologies and these behaviors and these the functions and lack of functions within all of these different people in systems so that there can be more function, more satisfaction, and ultimately more health. And even if that's physical health, because physical health is directly related to spiritual health, identity health, actualization. Just like trauma to one's spirituality, to one's identity, to one's relationship does result in illness and sickness and disease and in pain, autoimmune issues. And so this is the chicken and the egg. Some they they go together.
Matt:Often, so many people that have an injury have a fall, have a car accident, you know, heck, have an injury in in sports or something else. How stable, how secure their relationships are, their mind is, and their emotions are so often dictates how easily one recovers. Because when we talk about trauma response, trauma rehab, injury, treatment, therapy see, therapy is just learning. And when we when we talk about those things, well, we've gotta cover both, the mind, body, and gut. And just saying I have truth, and my God's the great God and never the greatest guy that hey, if that was if that worked, then it would have worked by now.
Matt:Yeah.
Hilary:Let's face it.
Matt:And it's not. So talking about these real world things and then providing real world tangible practical tools and resources. And rather than saying that
Hilary:Let's do it. Kristen
Matt:Yes? If you are talking with somebody who is let's let's let's not focus on physical disability. Right? But somebody who feels real distressed because of their mind, especially, and what's going on in their mind. And what we're talking about so often are very capable.
Matt:You know, tip more typical when we say healthy. Just someone that you think is is is normal. Have you had any interactions with people like that?
Kristin:Oh, yes. Lots. Mhmm. Recently? Yes.
Matt:So just to go very low level small, are there just some practical techniques and strategies to just begin to quiet the mind. And that's such a horrible phrase. But to make the mind, the body, just less stressful Yeah.
Hilary:Allow
Matt:it. And less Yeah. Intensely experiencing strain and stress.
Kristin:Yeah. I I really try to tell people the first thing is to just spend a little bit of time and notice how you're breathing.
Matt:Mhmm. Why is breathing important?
Kristin:We need oxygen. We need oxygen. But the if we can breathe fully and deeply using our complete system, our diaphragm, we can calm our nervous system to keep ourselves, access to our our frontal lobe. So we really can feel the feelings that we're having and think through the feelings that we're having. So a lot of times I I when people that's the one thing is if you're starting to feel overwhelmed or frustrated or you start feeling that anxiety, the, you know, the freaking out that people talk about.
Kristin:It really is just stop, do less immediately, and just breathe. Deep, big breaths into your belly. If we're we we really we breathe shallow. We're busy and we're, you know, constantly thinking and moving and we start to just really breathe with our upper lungs. And it what we don't realize is it's not allowing our full spinal column, our nervous system to be at one.
Kristin:Mhmm. You have to really open up your body cavity with air and it it it helps you relax so you can think about your thoughts and think about your feelings. And when you don't think about your thoughts and think about your feelings, the senses that you're bringing in never stop. So you're still hearing things, and you're still seeing things, and you're still touching things, and feeling things, and it is constant. Mhmm.
Kristin:And if you don't think about them and process them, then they just turn into stagnant energy somewhere in our body stuck.
Matt:Now you're not talking about breath work per se.
Kristin:I'm not talking about breath work. No.
Matt:Okay.
Kristin:There are all kinds of breath work strategies. Yes.
Matt:You're just saying breathing.
Kristin:Yes. Make sure you're fully breathing. Big breaths in all the way deep into your belly. Fill your lungs deep into your belly. Keep breathing and all the way out.
Matt:It's not that deep.
Kristin:You have to then all of that energy, you're bringing oxygen in while you can calmly think and then you gotta get all it's taking that to every cell. Mhmm. So every cell can stay healthy and work and not be stressed. And then all of the out.
Matt:I love that idea which when you say your body needs oxygen. The cells need oxygen. And so from thinking in term of nourishing the cells with oxygen, you have access to that immediately right now. Mhmm. So one thing we shouldn't have seawater.
Matt:Of. Hydration. Right?
Kristin:Yes.
Matt:You know, and I and I and I I I sometimes I talk about having a, a nourishing night sleep.
Hilary:Oh, well, when Kristen was talking,
Matt:I
Hilary:was just thinking of a change that I've made in in my end of day kind of, shutdown. I could watch something on TV that would really upset me
Matt:Mhmm.
Hilary:Or on my phone in my hand, continue it on. Okay. I gotta get up and work tomorrow. Mhmm. I gotta get some sleep.
Hilary:And you go into bed, and what do you do? You're still on it, and the lights are out, you still got that illumination. Mhmm. And then you think you're gonna have a restful night's sleep
Matt:Right.
Hilary:And be ready to work in the morning. Guess what? If you make a few changes, and you start your shutdown earlier, and you cut off the all the stimulus Yeah. And just maybe sit with yourself and breathe and calm down Yeah. You don't need to take a drug to sleep.
Matt:Right. Mm-mm. Now, I I understand why people do that, and that even breathing and not having the stimulation, not have the distraction of the screen, is because those thoughts that I talked about, those complex emotions that are always on the surface even, not even in the background. So you have some running in the background. Mhmm.
Matt:And then you have others in the surface. It's like, we constantly replace one complex emotion for another one, and you forget about some, but then bring another one to the to the surface. And they're varied and that's effectively what people mean by PTSD Mhmm. And complex PTSD. It's not just one or a couple of things, but sometimes it's unlimited.
Matt:Yeah. A potential, you know, carousel of experiences and worries and threats and and and and that are in constantly on the surface of the brain and the impact Yeah. Of those experiences is the same as a drug, the same as as alcohol. It's a those complex emotions result in a it's a they can be neurological depressants that impact judgment, attention, awareness, and even coordination. Sure.
Matt:And so I get that the those screens and the the observing, you know, reels and shorts and and TikToks.
Hilary:You get me worked up just watching you
Matt:I know.
Hilary:Explain this.
Matt:That's right. No. It's it keeps you distracted so that those things obey. When you put that away, that's when those Mhmm. Mind the mind stress is so present.
Matt:I get that.
Kristin:And that's when we start instantly breathing more shallow because it's like, I don't wanna think about those things. Oh, there's so many thoughts up there. I don't wanna think about that. But if you just breathe and think, okay, all that's happening anyway, so I'm gonna breathe. And and you start to yes, thoughts can be scary.
Matt:Absolutely.
Kristin:But they're there rattling anyways.
Matt:But they're but they can be scary, and they are scary. They don't have to be.
Kristin:Yes.
Matt:Because the mantra I I give and I I used time and I try to give my clients and my children and other other clients is when you are feeling, when it grips your heart, when those those those those thoughts and those emotions come in, is first remember that all emotions are thoughts. They just have a physiological response.
Kristin:Mhmm.
Matt:And when those come in, you can talk to yourself and say, I'm just thinking.
Hilary:Yeah. Processing.
Matt:This is a thought. I'm just thinking. I'm thinking a thought. That's what humans do. I'm a human.
Matt:I'm a human having a thought. This is what it is to exist. This is what it is to be human, and this is what it is to think. And I'm a human thinking thoughts. And that puts into context that these stressful and, thoughts and experiences aren't pathages, aren't aren't pathologies.
Matt:It's not you being broken. It's you thinking and working and functioning exactly as a human is supposed to in order to deal with complex and stressful events. Because, unfortunately, life does appear to be burdensome. And there is suffering in life that's never going away. And we're built with the mind to have these complex thoughts thoughts and even have divided thoughts and be able to distract and and and think and and put away and bring back at a later time in order to deal with what's in front of you.
Matt:That's what we're meant to do. And so rather than thinking of that as a brokenness or it's wrong or it's it's it's bad, it it's a feature, not a bug. And you can can tell yourself that those types of thoughts and even those stressful, dissatisfied, disconnecting thoughts are having a purpose and serving a purse purpose, and you can start to reunify those thoughts rather than trying to flee from them and and avoid them. Because avoiding them only Mhmm. Sometimes makes them stronger.
Matt:And so, you know, this this this idea of breathing is is tied to being able to think. And then to just start to tell to see yourself not as a broken person because you're experiencing stress. What a hopeful thing it is to feel stress because that means you're feeling.
Kristin:Mhmm.
Matt:It's when you feel numb and numb for a long time that that really starts showing disability and dysfunction. Sure. And so rather than you know, we you know, with life cast, we talk about combating abuse, stress, right, or abuse, harm, stress, and threats. What we're talking about is the type of stress that becomes injurious because it never goes away. And what we're what what what we will be teaching is how to identify, maintain, and manage stress so that it doesn't become an injury.
Matt:Mhmm. To identify, avoid, and neutralize threats so it doesn't become an injury. Minimize the effects of abuse so it doesn't become a long term Mhmm. Or a chronic injury. And same with harm.
Matt:That we can minimize the effects of it so it doesn't become long term. And we do that through learning, because therapy is learning. Learning how to breathe is certainly one. Learning how to nourish the gut. Yes.
Matt:Mhmm. Learning how to move safely and healthily. Learning how to communicate and talk with the people that you care about and that care about you, and in some cases, the people you don't care about and don't like, but that you're forced to interact with. Mhmm. There's learning about that.
Matt:That's a form of of therapy. Learning how to communicate to an intimate partner and to an intimate relationship, what your needs are within that relationship. Both mind needs, physical needs, esteem needs, attention needs. And this is all therapy, how to talk, how to breathe, how to eat, how to move. This is what it is to be human, and this becomes a spiritual experience because it results in what your identity is and what you will allow your identity to be in the mind of another.
Matt:So breathing is one. And then just real quick, if you could talk about gut. Mhmm. And let's go with body and spine. Just a couple of the most basics of just advice for today to to kinda end off and and at least have some practical advice because this has been a little bit of a framing of a lot of things.
Kristin:When our gut our gut matters because it's it's obviously where we intake nutrients. So our cells, it's how we feed our body. And the the gut mind connection, that that's, you know, your your hormones, your chemical system. So once so gut is feeding your gut healthy fibers that feed your healthy bacteria and not the bad bacterias that that cause some of the the poisons that
Matt:Inflammation.
Kristin:That that yeah. That that then, you know, keep harmful chemicals and hormones and everything that going on in our bodies. So the the gut, the healthier your gut is then and which is feeding it with fiber, the healthier your mind will be. Your chemicals that are released, your happy hormones, your And then the muscular skeletal system needs to be fed with protein and that the muscular skeletal and our fascia is our system that then supports our nervous system. So
Matt:Like the tissue stuff.
Kristin:Yes. That is and our nerves are, you know, in our muscles. We get all of our senses, our our actual to take in our experiences, which then are those taking in of our senses then goes to our brain and creates this is an experience. It creates an emotion based on all of the history that we've had with growing up. And that is that is thinking about an experience.
Kristin:How are you feeling? How are you when you take in these senses. So your muscular system needs to be healthy because our nerves are entwined in that. And then our fascia are are inside that's holding us up. And the gut the gut and the so the fiber and the protein are what feed the gut and the muscular skeletal system to keep our hormones and, you know, all of the the happy hormones that the everything in balance.
Matt:So oxygen, hydration, fiber, and protein.
Kristin:Yep. And movement. You gotta move the muscles and
Matt:the skeletal system. If you had to give just one form of treatment technique or therapy technique to help help the spine, Is there anything you would give just basic, just a quick basic, suggestion?
Kristin:The most important thing I think for your spine since we are upright animals that walk upright with a spine, you know, skeletal system that is keeps us upright and is fighting gravity every minute you even sit up straight. You know, your spine is gravity is working on us. So the most important thing is to lay down on your back every day in, you can do it flat, lay just lay down on your back. If a lot of times it's best to, you know, bend your knees, have your feet about hip distance apart, close to your bum, you know, not too close, but bend your knees. That's called constructive rest so your spine can lay flat.
Matt:Mhmm.
Kristin:And then just breathe deep so your cavity, every little muscle that holds that spine up all day long can now just work against gravity and reset itself. And if you're breathing deep, then all those little tiny muscles that hold up your spine can move in and out with that diaphragm movement and and move back to, where it should be naturally.
Matt:And how long about how long should you be laying down?
Kristin:Five to ten minutes
Matt:k.
Kristin:A night or day. I mean Okay. Yeah. And this is Try to at least five minutes.
Matt:And this is the minimum is, again, not breath work. It's just making sure that you're aware of and focusing on on breathing a few times a day. Three times, four times, maybe not more than that, but be aware of if when you're stressed and when the thoughts come is are is there shallow breathing?
Kristin:Mhmm.
Matt:And then you check into that throughout the day.
Kristin:And if you start laying on your back for five minutes a day and practice that slow breathing in, slow breathing up, they say, you know, four or five. Some people, eight seconds in, but it's you breathe in and then breathe all the way out. A lot of times that breathing all the way out should be a little bit longer because you wanna get all of the breath out too. That if you spend time just doing that, then and just notice what's going on in your head. That's all.
Kristin:Just breathe, notice. If your if your mind feels like it's going too crazy, then go back to thinking about feeling your breath. Think about am I is my lung filling up at the top? Am I filling the backs of my you know, the back of my back? Can I feel the air going into my belly?
Kristin:And concentrate on each breath. And if you go back to your mind and your mind is starting to spin you out of I don't wanna think about those things then go back to your body. Am I breathing? Can my spine feel it? Can my stomach feel it?
Kristin:Is my you you just start thinking about your body again and that will calm your mind. But that taking notice of your breath will then throughout the day if you start doing this every night, right? There'll be times where you're, you know, I'll be running around the grocery store or something and I realize, oh my gosh, I'm not really breathing. That's why I feel a little bit panicked. Mhmm.
Kristin:Okay. I'm just gonna take a few minutes to just breathe deep because your brain actually if you're not getting enough oxygen, if you're not breathing deep, if you're shallow breathing, your nervous system way down at the tail end that you're not getting full, you know, you're not relaxing it all the way. Your nervous system, your your reptilian brain starts to think, maybe I should take over. Maybe I should take over. I'll take over because I'll keep us alive.
Kristin:Yeah. No matter what you do, human, I'll keep us alive. But we're fully developed humans. We should be keeping ourselves alive because we developed and learned how to. So it's really just keeping balance of that reptilian brain of yours.
Kristin:Can we can we help that thing so it doesn't have to revert to however it's meant to keep us alive. How it learned to keep us alive without us thinking about it. That's not that's not fully living. Yeah. So you've got we just you gotta breathe.
Kristin:Anyway, practicing that every night, just noticing how you're doing, how you're breathing. Does does it hurt in your you know, you'll start noticing, wow. Sometimes it hurts here, here, here when you're just laying down and breathing. And those are times to notice, oh, I need to be more gentle with that tomorrow. Maybe I should do a little stretch here or It's really just starting to listen and think about your body.
Kristin:And then balance that busy mind with how's my body feeling. And
Matt:this is just a little bit of mechanics. And doing these things does help the mind, body, gut connection, which is the very beginning foundation to this idea of spiritual wellness, mental wellness, emotional wellness, relationship wellness. And the other one I'd suggest that I've, that have become very useful is to read children's fiction. Now a lot of peep a lot of people aren't reading today. Very few people are reading.
Matt:Reading's becoming a lost art, it seems like. And that is impacting emotional wellness and physical wellness and cognitive activation. And so I I recommend some sort of kids book. I don't care if it's a picture book. I don't care what level it is.
Matt:But having a physical book is important. There's a reason why having the the the tactile, the, heck, this is my my favorite book in the world. The monster at the end of this book. Right? Your lovable friend
Kristin:Grover.
Matt:Lovable friend Grover. Right? And but the physical touching and moving the book moving the pages and scanning the eyes Mhmm. Left and right and down has an impact on the activation of the brain. And so just the physical act of reading a physical book Mhmm.
Matt:Is doing something spatially, and it's doing something with the brain. But then the act of actually reading these words now the reason why I say chills is fiction is we don't want it to necessarily be a challenge that that it's real intense because there's intense reading out there.
Kristin:Mhmm. Right. There's learning to do. Of course.
Matt:There's there's a lot of learning some books, but here's a book that I read here's a book I read when I was in sixth grade. I've read a number of times. Helter Skelter, the true story of the Manson murder
Kristin:Great book.
Matt:Vincent Bugliosi.
Kristin:I just read it.
Matt:A great prosecutor, with Curt Gentry. Now this is an intense book. Mhmm. It's intense and it talks about death, murder, kill, and, a trial and all types of things. What a what a cool and interesting book.
Matt:That's not what I'm talking about.
Kristin:Mhmm.
Matt:Because we want it to be intensity reducing and that's why children's fiction does that. And children's fiction does that also because it first of all, it activates the language center of the brain. Just by the way
Kristin:And the imagination center.
Matt:And the imagination center
Kristin:of the brain.
Matt:And that's why go ahead.
Kristin:Well, in fiction, it'll get you out of your imagination side of the brain, which is what we tend to be stuck in if we are worried about things, have anxiety, all of that. Or, you know, PTSD, all of that. We're we're too much in the, you know, what happened, what if, all of the imagination. But if you can pick up a book and get into an imaginative reading where you get to use that right side of your brain that is thinking about the characters and, if it's fantasy or fit you know, any type of something that is that you have to imagine but you're also reading and putting together with language that story with words right to left. So your whole brain is activated and learning and connecting even though you don't think about it.
Kristin:You're connecting emotion with language. So then when you can think about your when you're out of the book and you're thinking about your imagination, you are practiced putting language to it Yeah. Which can then calm the right side of the brain again.
Matt:And this is an exercise. This is a this is a form of therapy. So those are the beginnings. Those that is a maybe a preschool level beginning to, trauma response to responding to trauma and even the very beginnings of healing PTSD and CPTSD. We're all traumatized.
Matt:We've all been fractured by our developmental experiences and the experiences that we've had that has resulted in real complex emotions as a result of complex experiences. And we're forced to deal with complex tasks day to day. As humans, we are complex and subtle beings dealing with complex and subtle problems, but too often, we're forced to do that in environments and among people that refuse to allow either complexity or subtlety. And that is traumatizing, but it doesn't have to be. This isn't a rejection of religion per se.
Matt:It's an attempt to embrace and empower the best versions of religion and spirituality. And it's not just a criticism and a critique of politics, although it is. So I'm all a pox on both houses. Let me be clear. It's but it is also a call to have those people that are a people of influence and power to stop being hypocrites and to stop weaponizing children and families for your power and to hopefully help provide resources to families and children so that they can have a more pure and authentic voice in a way to advance, articulate, and understand understand and apply their identity and place in the world.
Matt:And that will help them find another that they can connect with. Mhmm. Okay. That's it. Happy Sabbath.
Hilary:Happy Sabbath. Yes. Indeed. More so. Thank you.
Kristin:In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
Matt:Anyone for the closing prayer? Yeah.