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Smart people talking about the theory, analysis, and practice of Canadian politics. Guests include political scientists, pollsters, journalists, and insiders. More thoughtful journalism from Energi Media.
Welcome to episode 6 of the political talks podcast. I'm journalist, Markham Hislop. Something weird is going on in Kamloops, British Columbia. Mayor Reid Hamer Jackson is feuding with local media, including today's guest, radio talk show host Brett Meneer, who is being publicly harassed by the mayor's supporters. The background to this story is kinda bizarre and pretty convoluted.
Markham:Full of accusations and counter accusations, multiple investigations of the mayor allegedly bullying city staff, a defamation lawsuit filed by the mayor against the counselor, and the mayor suspending the city's acting chief administrative officer. But what interests me about this story is how Hamer Jackson has gone on the offensive against journalists he thinks are biased or basically accusing them of working for his political opponents. And now his supporters are emboldened to take action against those journalists. This trend is becoming prevalent across Canada and it worries me. To talk about it and the weirdness that is Kamloops local politics, I'm joined by Brett Muneer.
Markham:So welcome to political talks, Brett.
Brett:Oh, I'm happy to do it, Mark. Thanks for having me.
Markham:Well, I I we should mention off the top that you've been interviewing me for years for your talk. You know, we talk about energy politics, and so I know you as a a reporter and an interviewer.
Brett:Yeah.
Markham:And you and I have standard interviews. You you know, journalist type interviews. You ask me a question. I try to give you a rational answer. We go on to the next question.
Markham:When we finish, that's the interview.
Brett:Yeah.
Markham:I recently this morning, while I was prepping for this interview, I read and listened to an, an interview you did in studio with Hamer Jackson, and, frankly, it was kinda bizarre. It was just flat out one of the weirdest interviews that I've ever seen with a local politician.
Brett:Yes.
Markham:And, you know, I don't know how. I mean, tell us about it, and tell us about this dude.
Brett:Well, so the thing I, I think that kinda probably best explains them is to think of him a little bit like, our own little version of, of Donald j Trump. Right? He's sort of this populist character that kind of rode a wave of, anger and angst over what people are seeing with the, you know, the toxic drug crisis and homelessness and whatnot in in Kamloops. He kind of rode a wave of of concern about that and legitimate concerns both, you know, downtown businesses getting vandalized and all that. He emerged on the political scene here in Kamloops.
Brett:A couple of years ago, there was a number of businesses, downtown along this, West Victoria Street that were getting vandalized all the time. There had sort of come to be a collection of social services all kind of on one strip. Right? And so with that comes issues. Right?
Brett:And emerging sort of from the local business community there, was this guy, Reed Hamer Jackson, who owns this used car dealership, True Market Auto. And,
Markham:true True. This guy is literally a used car sale.
Brett:Yes. And and and, you know, his his his family have been in business in Kamloops for I mean, I don't know how long, but I understand that, you know, sort of the business was passed onto him and, you know, he's built it and done various things over the over the years and whatnot. We bought a car from him at one point, my wife did. But he kind of emerged as a as a guy that was sort of taking it on himself to kind of speak for some of the neighboring businesses and whatnot. So, I actually had him on the show, one time to kind of, hear some of what he had to say, criticisms of what some of the nonprofits were doing, the concentration of services.
Brett:You know, he had concerns about city city hall and how they were, you know, policing this. You know, what were they sending in terms of, resources down there? Well, you know anyways, he he basically emerged out of that as sort of a community, kind of speaking for a portion of the community. We had him on the show. He, it actually started to build him a little bit of profile.
Brett:So then other media started picking it up. And next thing you know, every time there was, like, an issue around this sort of thing, he was, like, sort of our go to guy.
Markham:Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. Now, he gets elected a little over a year ago. And in a couple of minutes, give us the of what happened.
Markham:I mean, it just sounds like it was a, you know, a a WWE cage match for a local with the council.
Brett:Yeah. So, during the during the campaign, the theme started to emerge that Reed Hamer Jackson wanted to fire sort of the top line administrators with the city. This became sort of a rallying cry for his people. And, you know, at first as a candidate, he wasn't taken that seriously, but, you know, election day comes. We had, like, we had pathetic voter turnout, 29%.
Brett:Everybody got all of the votes got split between, like, 5 mayoral candidates, and he came in getting 9.6% of the local electorate. Right away though, people at city hall were nervous because he had campaigned on firing some of them publicly, naming them by name. And, you know, so right away it was kind of a big question mark. It all but it all starts basically with at one point behind the scenes, I guess, it's, you know, you have a guy who comes in and he's got all these big ideas, and then he comes in and then he finds out the city's either doing half of them or the idea is not a thing. And people, you know, that would have to break the news to him would then become the target of his wrath.
Brett:And so we had a city administrator who was the target of his wrath. He ended up going out on leave. Another guy sort of steps in to to to fill his shoes. At one point, he decide there there was all sort of a series of sort of antics where he was just sort of being a buffoon, being sort of accused of being a bully, like behind the scenes. And then it really broke out into public view when there was a council held a news conference over a year ago in March where, basically, they said that, you know, the the mayor, they were united as a council, that the mayor, had been bullying, harassing not just, staff but other counselors.
Brett:That he had the the wording that was used in their news conference was he had routinely violated personal and professional boundaries. And that all had something to do with him contacting the father of Katie Newstater, a a counselor. He's a here her father is a former MLA. And, basically, he was trying to get her father to get her to kind of to come in line and join team Reid, you know. Stop being so disagreeable.
Brett:That news conference then after they did that and and and she read the statement on behalf of counsel, it ended up in him suing her, for libel and defamation. And that is just sort of where the roller coaster begins. Yeah. I know it's so it's convoluted and there's a lot to it, but the context is plays an important role in a lot of sort of what would follow.
Markham:Now I began my journalism career back in the late eighties in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, which is about a quarter of the size of Kamloops. Kamloops is about a 100000 people and PA is around 25 or 30, but we had a daily newspaper back in the day.
Brett:And it
Markham:was pretty good with daily newspaper actually. And, over the course of that time, I got to, you know, with the last 35 years or so, I've interviewed all kinds of politicians, including mayors. And and in fact, after I left the newspaper, I sat for a time on the city of Prince Albert's, economic development council and, and had, you know, dealt with, the city clerk, it's called there. We did the same as the city administrative officer. So I I have, I think, a sense of how politics gets conducted at that level.
Markham:And there is a certain decorum. And the reason for that decorum is because you have you have disparate personalities. Some of them are very aggressive and some of them are less so. I mean, it's the same with every organization that you get into. Right.
Markham:And you have to have etiquette. You have to have respect for your other opponents. One doesn't get to run rough shot over the rest or otherwise there's chaos and and dysfunction follows.
Brett:Mhmm.
Markham:And so when I hear the story, about Hamer Jackson, I think back to my various experiences, with the local governments. And you can see every once in a while, you get a guy like that. It's always a guy. Right? So and it just brings chaos with it.
Markham:You sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind. And, that sounds like what this is what's going on in Kamloops.
Brett:Yeah. And, you know, count, there's there's been several internal sort of HR investigations that the city then would had had to contract out. They ran into this issue where under the, workers compensation act in in in BC, we learned that, you know, counsel, like, elected elected are not really considered employees under the act. So the HR thing for settling HR disputes of bullying and harassment was complicated. So they had to they contracted out big law firms to conduct this work.
Brett:He's had at least 2 that we know of. HR investigations come back, including that he basically is a bully and engaged in harassment. The provincial government appointed a municipal adviser to come and advise Kamloops on how to get out of this. Abbotsford mayor Henry Braun came up and did this, former Abbotsford mayor. The the report found that he just does not function within that system.
Brett:He's created all kinds of chaos and, Henry Braun was clear that he did not really have much faith that the situation was gonna get any better, and he called it untenable. You know, so counsel has made moves since then, that Henry Braun outlined that they can under the community charter to try to limit his power. They're trying to limit the damage. Right? So, barring him from closed committee meetings, for example, he had torn up committee structures, and it got overruled by counsel.
Brett:But then he was coming to committee, but he refused to join the actual committees even when invited as, like, some kind of protest or whatever. And then he started allegedly taking, materials out of clothes and running with them to a sympathetic blogger or something. So they have tried to sort of limit this by, you know, he can't attend closed committee meetings. Right now, as a from a separate HR finding against him, he's had his pay cut by 10% for 6 months. They're doing things to try to limit the limit the damage.
Brett:But every time they do that, his crowd reacts. They don't really understand what's going on. They don't really understand how municipal government works or employment law or anything, and they get angry about it all.
Markham:Okay. That's where I wanna, that's what I'm interested in here is, how big is this group of supporters that you're talking about? Are we talking about 5 people, 50 people, 500 people, and who and who might they be without naming names, of course?
Brett:You know, it's it's hard to say. Like I said, it was he he got 9.6% of the, of eligible voters in Kamloops. That translated to about 77100 votes. Of that, there's a lot of people that were just sort of like, yeah, I would like see downtown cleaned up, whatever. They're sort of, you know, I I would almost call the middle of the road, you know.
Brett:In terms of the hardcore, the ones that are really sort of toxic, I would I would say it's fewer than a 100, and even of those, we're talking about maybe 25 people that are the loudest and sort of the most obnoxious, I guess, is is sort of the way to put it. So, I'm assured by people all the time that, this is a minority fringe, But, you know, sometimes it's sometimes it's hard to tell because they are so loud, and they're just suck the oxygen out of the room.
Markham:Yeah. That seems to be a problem. And we we saw that during the last federal campaign when prime minister Justin Trudeau was getting on his bus and and people were throwing gravel at him. I mean, the the idea that a loud noisy group can be that aggressive towards you the prime minister of your country and there are no consequences is absolutely astonishing to me. I I then I I've seen this, opinion, shared, many times in in my social media network is just gobsmacking.
Markham:I mean Well well, maybe maybe
Brett:Maybe it wouldn't come as a surprise to you then that many of their Facebook profiles feature the kind of content that glorifies that thing, including perhaps that specific event.
Markham:It wouldn't surprise me at all, to be honest. Right? And and and so here's the here's the question. If we've got if Kamloops has got 25 people who are angry, they're ideological. Now as a rule, I don't know this group of of people, but as a rule, these are folks who trade in conspiracy theories.
Markham:They they have, you know, they're they're they're aggressive on social media. They're aggressive. We're allowing a little tiny percentage of the electorate to be to enact may to foment major disruption in our politics.
Brett:Yep.
Markham:And and it leads then, it looks like, in Kamloops, then it leads to disruption in city politics, in city, programs.
Brett:Both this this nonsense has cost Kamloops city taxpayers 100 of 1,000 of dollars already, and we're only 2 years into into his mandate. Right? That's just in terms of lawyer fees, these HR investigations that have to be cost out. So, like, there is a real cost. It's also been incredibly derailing and distracting to have to use counsel time all the time on these disciplinary matters.
Brett:Right? And it also starts to give the appearance of less and less transparency because so much of this has to go into close because it's a it it it's their HR matters. And then these people just get more suspicious. Why are they doing everything in closed? Then Reid exploits that and saying, why are they doing everything in closed?
Brett:Why are they they're secretly plotting all the time. They're doing the it's it it just it's this cycle of toxicity.
Markham:Let's talk about this from you had the other day, and I think you you posted a video on your x account.
Brett:Mhmm.
Markham:And tell me tell me about tell me what happened.
Brett:Yeah. The video I showed too was kind of after things that, had chilled down too. So, basically, ever since the the municipal adviser had come to Kamloops and made the ruling against Reid, there were questions because, right away, another counselor, after that report, you know, called on him to to resign. Right? And now counsel is unified to to resign.
Brett:The mayor always made it clear he wasn't gonna resign. That he and he just proceeded to double down, and then he went and sued somebody else, some local developer. Just, and then he'd always made that clear. Then last week, Friday, he starts he's calling around no. Sorry.
Brett:But Thursday night late Thursday night. Right? He starts texting around to people from the various newsrooms in town. We've got quite a few media outlets in Kamloops. And he was telling them all that he was gonna have a press conference, on on Monday for, and it was resignation related or, resignation consideration depending on who he was talking to.
Brett:Right? So the media all comes comes up there to this view it's this viewpoint that looks over Kamloops. Right? We all we all come up there. We all set up.
Brett:It's a very typical kind of there's a, you know, TV setup, a mic stand, and all that. And, he delivers this speech that is, where he basically says he's not gonna resign, and that he's gonna run again in 2026, and he just doubled down and played all the hits. Right? But, where things went sour sort of with, with my experience up there was that the when I arrived, we were just kind of milling about in the parking lot and whatnot. And as his supporters started to arrive there, they had kind of invited themselves through Facebook.
Brett:Right? As a supporter started to arrive, he was, like, pointing me out to some of them and making sure they knew who I was, that this is the guy. Because I've been an outspoken critic of him on my show. Right? I said, like, a year ago that the man was unfit for office, and that got a lot of blowback.
Brett:Right? And and I felt like I'd really gone out on a limb saying that, but I absolutely believe it. He's so his people do not like me. Right? But a lot of them don't know what I look like or anything like that beyond what, you know, old photos on our website and stuff.
Brett:Right? But he was making sure to point them out, and some of them were chirping me before we even got started. Right? Starting to photograph us. Not just me, other media as well, but some of them really were focused on me from the beginning.
Brett:He starts off his speech by saying, oh, you know, you say the word resignation, and you get all the media come out, you know, including Brett Meniere here. And then he bends down to shake my hand because I'm crouched sort of below the podium because I only had an iPhone that day, so I had to kinda be down below and, you know, holding it up kind of thing. And, so he makes sure to point me out right at the very beginning to all of the supporters who have gathered there. And now there's about 50 or 60 of them. Right?
Brett:So it's not really a small group anymore. It's getting bigger. And, you know, he bends down and shakes my hand. I awkwardly shake his hand, and I just sort of stay under my breath. I'm like, thanks for pointing me out.
Brett:And then he looks at me, and he gives me this this glare. And he says, yeah. Almost like, watch this. Right? He proceeds to go through his speech or whatever.
Brett:But then any time that I, like, shifted around or stood up or his people were, like, sort of needling me behind me. Like, You're an ass. You know, Why are you here? Idiot. This kind of thing.
Brett:And at one point, I turned to one of them. I just said, if if if you're shouting the whole time, none of this audio is gonna be of any use to any of us, and this is what your guy wanted us here to do. Okay? And I was and then she goes, oh, shut up. And then he says in the he says in the middle of the scrum, Brett, you're being disruptive.
Brett:And I think, you know, and I think nobody wants you here, and I think you should and I think you should leave. And then they started chanting, Brett, go home. Brett, go home. And I, it it got ugly. I was hearing all kinds of things from the crowd.
Brett:I was shaking like a leaf the entire time from the very outset because I could tell it was a crowd. I had texted my news director, before it even started, and I said this just so you know, this might go south for me here. He's making sure to point me out to all of his supporters. And I was said I was told, okay. You know, stay stay safe kind of thing.
Brett:But, yeah, his his his crowd turned on me, and they were chanting, Brett, go home. Brett, go home. I stayed until he was done. I just sort of I stayed there. But, it's important to note too though that, like, they were going after other reporters as well, when questions were asked that they didn't approve of.
Brett:And and the mayor, at one point, there was one reporter getting picked on as well. They were trying to show him down, and and the mayor said, I don't have a problem with his reporting. And then they left him alone. I got singled out, and they continued to come at me. And then over the next 24 hours, I was a pedophile.
Brett:I was all these things online. It was brutal.
Markham:Okay. So, again, I've been to these things. I mean, we've all any reporter has has been to many press conferences, and and there are all, you know, sometimes there are tough questions. And that's our job, is to hold the even if it's not to hold people account. You know?
Markham:Like, I I see other journalists talking about this. Well, my goal is to is to hold the powers, to be to to account. I've never thought of myself, my job like that. I I I'm looking for the truth. That's what I really wanna get at is the facts and the evidence, and, maybe that requires, you know, interviewing 2 or 3 different people with different points of view, but whatever.
Markham:At the end of the day, I think the journalists and reporters are really trying to just explain the facts so that our readers, our listeners can understand what's going on. That's a important, function of the 4th estate. It's a pillar of the of democracy, and it's quite it's outrageous that the public, like this, a mayor's supporters, can go up, to can attend a press conference and verbally harass and physically intimidate, journalists like yourself. I mean, that just absolutely should not take place. And in in the past, I don't ever remember it taking place.
Markham:It's a fairly recent phenomenon. So what has been the reaction what's the reaction in your newsroom? Like, what does your news director say?
Brett:Well, so this is where it gets interesting because my I came back, from all of that, and I was pretty rattled, but I'm already having to process audio and things like that. So I wasn't really getting a chance to kind of decompress and whatnot. My news director has his own show between 12 and 1 o'clock. He said, you'll be my, you know, 12:20. So, I came on with him and we kinda went through it, Played some audio of what had happened there and whatnot.
Brett:And then at the end of it, he basically he he said, until such time as radio and Alan Brett Minear gets an apology from the mayor, he's persona non grata here. He will not be on any of our shows. Now this had been something we'd been tossing around for a while because us, and not just us, other media outlets too, had had problems with having him on live. He would come on. He would libel people.
Brett:He would put himself and anybody who was on air with him in legal jeopardy. He generally would come on and further confuse issues. You know, you'd have him on to try to clear something up for the community, and people would come away more mixed up than before. And that had a root in he didn't actually really know what he was talking about. And, so various newsrooms had have sort of had to develop policies to kinda deal with it.
Brett:And I know in broadcast, a lot of it is never do it live with him. You can't do it live. You can't because you cannot fact check this guy, live. It's like trying to drink from a fire hose. So we had been really trying to not have him on live pre tape only and only if the host was gonna be very, very, very prepared to be able to push back and and all of that.
Brett:But what we did is we just sort of formalized it, and, like, I didn't have a part in this decision. It came from my news director. But basically, he said he's not gonna be back on any of our shows, right, Which is our prerogative. Now it's not to say we were not gonna cover him as a newsroom. As a newsroom, obviously, if there's a story involving him, we still have to see comment and whatnot.
Brett:Right? But the the record on that, like, you know, really not a lot changes, because, you know, we'd already sort of softly been trying to eliminate live appearances and things like that. When we would text him or whatever for comment, that always seemed to be the easiest way to get him as through text. When we text him for comment, it was, like, 5050 whether he would respond. And usually when he did respond, he would just go into the same old kind of play in the hits about, you know, administrators he's suspended or whatever, you know, and then he would claim he's not a bully.
Brett:And it goes around and around and you'd be texting with him forever because the the time suck? But the reaction was that this is what RadioNL has done. Right? Is is he will not be on on our talk shows, which I'm perfectly happy with at this point, frankly.
Markham:Okay. Have his supporters harassed you at other press conferences or in other ways?
Brett:I have heard it before, like, on the day that Henry Braun, that the, municipal adviser, the former Abbotsford mayor, the day that he was delivering his report at city hall. I went down there and, you know, I heard it from a few of them there. They would come up to me all sort of friendly like, and who are you with? And then I would say, and then I would say who I was if they asked. And then they're like, oh, I don't listen anymore because of you, and stuff like and stuff like that.
Brett:But that was really the extent of it was them just saying I don't listen, but they always do. They always they always they always knew the latest thing that I said. Right? That's as far as it had gone, right, really before, and that was really the only time. Online, absolutely.
Brett:They've been harassing all the time. But this was the first time it really sort of turned in your face physical.
Markham:Yeah. Because you had somebody park, like, inches away from your the door of your
Brett:car. Yeah. This this is yeah. They didn't they didn't, and that's what creeped me out because they obviously somebody had to know what I already what I was driving, and I was driving my wife's car. Right?
Brett:They they parked they didn't block me in, but they what they did is this vehicle parked sort of half in and half out of a spot kinda sideways a little bit so that the nose of their vehicle made it so that I couldn't open the driver's side door of my car when I came back to it. Now I met I did manage to squeeze through. It hurt. I'm thankful for a few months of weight loss here. You know, I got in, but I found it really unnerving because it was very obviously not an accident.
Brett:This wasn't somebody who parked too close. Right? That's not what it was. And what and it was unnerving to me because it told me that somebody knew which vehicle was mine. And that's creepy because it's actually my wife's vehicle.
Brett:We have a personalized plate too, which stuck because it that much more easily identifiable, you know? So yeah, there were other things like, you know, like the car thing, right, that were frightening.
Markham:Are you expecting an escalation in the of these kind of tactics as this story continues? I mean, this mayor has got 2 more years in his mandate. It sounds like the, his reaction to this is escalating. Certainly sounds like his, supporters' behavior is escalating. What do you anticipate in the future?
Brett:More. More of it. More of it and, more toxic. I I do think, though, like, that they are losing steam. I do feel like the tide is turning against the mayor, in general.
Brett:And I think that when things like the other day happen, when they beclown themselves like this, it does further there's a sleeping giant majority out there. Right? But I think too though that some of his most diehard supporters, the ones who for which nothing he does will ever change their mind. Right? He has bled a lot of support.
Brett:I think they're only gonna get worse as things get more intense, and and and, you know, the story of Reed Hamer Jackson kinda reaches its its climax. And I don't know whether that's his court appearances in in, in in November or or or when that moment is, but it seems like we are building towards a crescendo. And, there are some people who are gonna be hangers on right to the end, and I anticipate that they will get more more aggressive.
Markham:Now what your, your news director and news directors in of other media are are taking action, but this has got to the point. It seems to me, that maybe, you know, the, the police should be involved. And is this, like, you know, when he calls a, press conference, should there be a police presence to keep these guys under control? Is there you know, do if you can identify some of these people who have been harassing you and, is, is it possible to complain to the police and maybe, you know, a constable visits their door and say you might wanna, you know, moderate your behavior here? I mean, is any of that possible?
Brett:I mean, it's possible. The problem the problem is is that you run into is what rises to a criminal level where the RCMP can get involved. You know? They they've I it's not the first time, right, that I've had problems with, like, threats and things like that. And what I've learned is that unless the threat is cartoonishly specific like, I'm gonna be in the parking lot at 611 Lansdowne at 3:32, and I'm gonna bash Brett's skull in with a with a baseball bat.
Brett:Unless it is that cartoonishly specific, they they can't or don't do anything. They they really don't. I mean, it seems like the threshold is becoming actual violence.
Markham:The then do we need some changes to, and I and I I don't know. I'm not a lawyer here, so I'm I'm kind of struck right reaching a little bit. But then do we need changes to, the, legislation or regulation or directions from, you know, the senior, in this case, it's the RCMP. I I I understand. So do do they need some directions from the, you know, heads, the head of the RCMP that, you know, police take this more seriously.
Markham:It seems to me that journalists ought to be able to do their job like this without the without being harassed, without being intimidated, and and, certainly, they shouldn't fear for their safety when they do their job.
Brett:Yeah. I mean, if you wanna take the Kamloops mayor sort of out of this whole conversation, I mean, in general, really starting during the pandemic, we started seeing more of this. We had a couple of police files that our station did open during the pandemic of, like, vandalism to our building and pictures of journalists hanging in Hitler's Germany, you know, pinned to our door. For the last year, I've had people who are hardcore supporters of the Palestinian statehood cause. They, you know, they've mailed me packages now on 2 occasions.
Brett:We went to the police about that. Doesn't rise to any kind of a level. Well, you don't know who it is. I mean, I know who it is, but he doesn't put his name on it. Right?
Brett:Of course not. And they're unwilling to look or to even go knock on his door. Right? And I I I you know, and I and I think to be fair to them, they are dealing with a lot at any one time in the community. We've had a a simmering gang war and things like that going on here now for a while with shootings and things.
Brett:Right? They got a lot on their plate. And unless it's really, really clear cut, they really don't do it. They really don't get involved. Right?
Brett:They they have they really have not done a lot on this. And it's but that's not really their fault. It is legislation the answer? I don't I don't know because that's when you start getting into the slippery slope of, you know, when is it just, you know, unpopular speech or something like that? You know?
Brett:Where where where does I I don't know what that legislation would look like. I think it's sort of my hang up on on that. I do feel like leadership somewhere needs somebody somewhere do something. Something needs to happen, but it's the what that I don't know. I don't know.
Brett:And I think, you know, there's a lot of people kind of probably in a similar boat not really knowing. Like, what what do you do about this? How do you counter online misinformation and hate that bubbles out into the public sphere? I don't know.
Markham:Well, and I wanna bring up the issue of of, female journalists because they, in particular, are being, harassed. And Mhmm. I'll I'll, for context, I'll tell a story, that didn't include another female journalist, but it did include a female connection of mine on on Twitter slash x. And, she put out a, a tweet about vaccinations, I think it was, and received 100 and 100 and 100 of angry, abusive, emails in response. Like, you know or so not email.
Brett:A lot of it probably pinged with sexist sort of misogynist themes probably. That's
Markham:Well, here's the thing. I DM ed her, and I said, may I tweet re tweet use your tweet. I'll tweet it verbatim, but Mhmm. From me, and let's see is a little a b experiment here. What happens?
Markham:I got 3 responses. She got 100 and 100. I got 3.
Brett:Wow.
Markham:So it to me I mean, this is just, you know, one data point. You can't draw big conclusions from this.
Brett:Probably different followers too. Right?
Markham:Yeah. I suppose. Yeah. But you think that, you know, the, the online trolls and so on would would find this stuff. Mhmm.
Markham:I think of, former CTV reporter, Rachel Gilmore, you know, who very famously made this an issue, I've been asking her her CTV management to protect her from this, and it became a a big issue. And you hear it all the time from female journalists. The the the level and volume of abuse that they get online is much higher than that of their male colleagues.
Brett:And Yeah.
Markham:It it so is there any of that going on in Kamloops? I mean, you must have the there are female reporters there. What are their take?
Brett:We do, but you know what? They, I I don't know. I can't really speak for them, but I I know during the, you know, during the pandemic, yeah, there was, there was there was some of that. I don't know, you know, right now. I think I think one of the other reporters in town that has been reporting on me critically has had has had some of it kind of in line with what I've been getting.
Brett:But just sort of case specific to Kamloops in this current moment, I it's hard because I'm not you know, I'm a dude. Right? I don't see what they what what they see. I'm not getting, you know, the emails and whatnot, but it's not something that I've heard them complain about. You know, I've heard them say things from other markets they've worked in and stuff like that.
Brett:And, you know, during the pandemic, for sure. Right? The anti vax crowd was you know, did target did often target them. It seemed the threshold for them to offend the crowd was much lower than the threshold for me to offend the crowd. Right?
Markham:No. I I hear you. I mean, I I I don't get this. I don't go to a of press conferences now. That's not the kind of journalism that we do, but I I get it on social media all the time.
Markham:And, you know, I can't tell you how many times, you know, somebody said, well, we're gonna have Nuremberg 2.0 Hislop, and you're gonna be hanging and you're you know, that kind
Brett:of stuff. Right? I get that quite a bit. I there's people that have been emailing me about the thing that happened on Monday who are who are, like, you know, who throw into their emails stuff about me being a globalist because I told people to get the clot shot. You know?
Brett:So, yeah, that's
Markham:Right. But, I mean, there there some will will explicitly threaten me, and as I'm sure some are explicitly threatening you. Others are just offensive, you know, like the, you know, the the one that you just described. I have probably a really terrible response to that, and I'm fond of
Brett:saying too. Absolutely.
Markham:I'm fond of saying that my social media etiquette, I learned it on the the hockey rinks of 19 seventies, rural Manitoba.
Brett:Me too. And that is part of my that is a a wee bit of my problem. Yeah.
Markham:Yes. I'm I'm quite happy. My favorite line now these days is, well, come say it to my Facebook. Bring a bag for your chiclets now. And, and and well, now I have to okay.
Markham:So someday somebody is gonna, you know, meet this 65 year old somewhat disabled guy in a parking lot, and I may I may pay for those rash comments that I I made online. But Yeah. By the same token, it hasn't happened yet. And, I think the principle here is take no shit. Yeah.
Markham:And I know that you kind of have that similar kind of approach
Brett:to it. Yeah.
Markham:But not everybody does. Not everybody, you know I mean, there are a lot of journalists, because, you know, we chat and and we chat online, chat in person. A lot of pea are really, really disturbed by the kind of abuse that they get.
Brett:Mhmm. I you know, I I have I'm in a bit of a unique position because I kind of wear 2 hats. More often than not, I am a talk show host. That is literally that's what I was paid to do. I come from a journalism background.
Brett:I there there is journalism that occurs on the show, but at the end of the day, it is an opinion show. Right? It is that. And I think what you know, a little bit of a contributor to the problem here is that sometimes people can't tell the difference now, and this is just a sort of general state of the industry in private radio that fewer bodies. You have you know, I was purely in talk, but as we have fewer bodies through the pandemic, they need me to pitch in in the newsroom.
Brett:So a lot of the content from the newsroom derives from interviews on my show. And, you know, there's strong opinions. I do editorials there. Right? Like I said, like, a year ago, I I said that the mayor was unfit for the office he was holding.
Brett:Right? So there is a blurring of the lines there where I can understand people having confusion, and I and, you know, that is that is an industry thing, to fix where there's confusion. Obviously, none of it justifies threats of, you know, violence or violence or harassment or anything like that. Because at the end of the day, as we both know, we're talking about words. Right?
Brett:We're talking about words. Like, words are not violence. Like, it's it's they are not violence. They words obviously can be scary if they're threats and things like that, and it's and it's inappropriate. But at the end, we're talking about doing physical harm to other human beings over words.
Brett:Right? I mean, the more times I say it, the more absurd it seems. You know?
Markham:Well, I you know what? I'm gonna push back a little bit on that, Brett, because, you know, your words reflect your ideas and and and words can move people. I I think words are really powerful. And, part of the problem here is that we are moving in this I think it's fair to say, and this is not a partisan thing, but I think it's fair to say that the Overton window on Canada's political spectrum is moving to the right just as it has down in the United States. And and it's getting to be, more extremist than it than it used to be.
Markham:And, generally, the folks who are doing this kind of harassment and and physical intimidation and threats and so on, come from that extreme right side. I know you mentioned the the pro Palestinian state. You know, there's so there are some on the left of center who are like that. But as a rule, and certainly in my case, and, you know, if you're if you're dealing with Alberta oil and gas, that's that's kind of where it comes from.
Brett:Yeah. That's a well known lightning rod. Yeah.
Markham:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's not like I got I have Marx as threatening to beat me up in the parking lot. Right?
Markham:Yeah. It's the folks on the other side of of the political spectrum. So but I think the the control of the narrative, the control of political narratives, which is done by words, I I think is absolutely at stake here And silencing voices, silencing dissent is we've seen it happen in the past in democratic societies. It worries the hell out of me.
Brett:And Yep.
Markham:And it hasn't risen yet to the level of, what's going on in the US. But, you know, we generally say that what happens in the US happens 5 years later in Canada, and you can see the trends already. And I find that very disturbing. I just what are your thoughts?
Brett:Yeah. I mean, I I I agree. It is it is going that direction. I think part of the problem though too is algorithmically, curated silos that we're in now. There's there seems to be, there's there seems to be an expectation now by people that the news, the facts that they hear come at them conform to some worldview that they already hold.
Brett:And outside of that, if you fall outside of that, it's fake news or you're biased or or, you know, whatever. And I really believe that social media is a and and the Internet is a very strong driver of that because people are not even seeing they're not even aware they don't even know what they don't know. Right? You're not even like, if you're somebody on the far right, you're not seeing content from the left that's at least not the not the reasonable stuff. Right?
Brett:Like, it will serve you the worst possible example. It will serve you what it knows gets the engagement that keeps your eyeballs there. And we know that that is thing that that is stuff that is distressing. Right? It's distressing.
Brett:It's fear mongering. It's whatever. If you're on the left, you're not even seeing some of the reasonable views that exist on the right or the criticisms of sort of the arguments from the left, right, and vice vice versa. You don't even see it. You end so you end up just in these ideological bubbles.
Brett:Right? And what you see too is even within these bubbles, when people stray a little bit outside of the thought orthodoxy, they almost get it worse from their own side. Right? It's it's like people turning against a heretic. Right?
Brett:You've committed heresy and that's almost worse than being the enemy. Right? So yeah, there there is that. It's the siloing of of the information scape, and you have now nobody trusting anybody, and that's what concerns me.
Markham:And that isn't gonna change. The Internet is not going away. Social media is not going away. I mean, I I suppose, you know, I I see some of my, followers and con and connections on places like Twitter saying, that's it. I'm leaving.
Markham:And they have left and gone to other social media platforms that, are not yet as toxic as as Twitter has turned out to be and Facebook, is a close second. But and we'll wrap up the interview with this, Brett. It it it there are no signposts, no indications that the problems that we're talking about are going away. In fact, they're they're getting worse.
Brett:Mhmm.
Markham:And what do we do what do we expect in a year or 2, 5 years down the road? I mean, how do we do our jobs as journalists, without getting, you know, beaten up in the parking lot or shot or, you know, even just harassed and intimidated. What do we do?
Brett:The $100,000,000 question, isn't it? Right? Like, that's
Markham:I don't have any answers, and it doesn't appear that you do either.
Brett:That that Which is
Markham:perfectly understandable.
Brett:I mean, that's what I'm grappling with right now. Right? How do you counter Facebook misinformation and things like that? How do you do you bother with it? Right?
Brett:Do you, it's hard. It's so distorting. Right? Because it comes at you so loud. Does it really represent popular view anyways?
Brett:Or you know, does the average man in the street who's not who's who's not terminally online, they tend to be very different and have a very different outlook on these things.
Markham:We have been talking here about a group of disaffected Kamloops voters who support the current mayor and are engaging in, you know, harassing, intimidating of local journalists. But I have to say that when it if we're talking about the general tenor of of discussion in society, and I deal in in oil and gas with, you know, issues and and reporting in in Alberta, where there's a strong, strong, culture of support for for the, look, for the provincial industry. I'm dismayed, utterly dismayed by the number of times I'm contacted by people who run oil and gas companies, are highly placed inside the current Alberta government. The or they are, they have executive positions within the energy sector who take issue with the things that I you know, the evidence based, data based arguments I make in a column or in an interview.
Brett:Mhmm.
Markham:And when they respond, it's utter gibberish. Like, there is nobody says, I take exception to the way that you portrayed that particular data point and, you know, here's the broader contact, blah blah blah, the kind of stuff that reasonable, rational people have. These are people who are thought leaders whose analysis is, doesn't rise above the level of a Facebook meme. So it's not just the folks you know, it's not just a bunch of, you know, sort of, low information voters in Kamloops who are showing up at your at your press conference to shout rude things at you and and park next too close to your vehicle. It's at the top.
Markham:It's at the very this is not this is a a a phenomenon that goes beyond no. I haven't I haven't had the, you know, the the chairman of a board of a oil company threatened to beat me up. Yeah. But this is a it's a it's a problem that's more pervasive than the 25 folks that we were talking about in Kamloops.
Brett:Well, it's like a virus. Right? The social media, the siloing of information, fears, polarization. It is like a virus. Right?
Brett:It affects It affects all of us, whether we like to admit it or not. Right? You may have experienced this, Mark. I'm sort of the inverse of that too though, is hearing from some thought leaders or politicians or whatever saying, hey, man, keep up the fight. You know, these people are are ridiculous and, you know, this kind of thing.
Brett:But then they don't say it publicly. Right? Like, this is this is the thing that I get. I get all kinds of messages of support. Right?
Brett:Grateful for it all. It's good to know that these people are out there. But sometimes I wish some of them would use the platform that they have to actually speak up and stand up against it. Our housing minister in this case did, which was great. It carries a lot of weight.
Brett:It was very helpful, and I'm grateful for that. But I think there are too few right now that are willing to do that, that are willing to expend political capital to take a stand.
Markham:I actually had an experience with that, a couple months ago where we it was around the acts the tax campaign. And there is a, a rational, discussion to be had on the carbon tax and the carb carbon pricing in general. And I'll just give you a
Brett:Yes. We've talked about it on my show. Right? Yeah. You know?
Markham:That's right. I mean, you know, the you can actually make a there are economists who make the argument that that the political cost of having a carbon tax, a consumer carbon tax, is not worth worth it. And there are other tools that you know, regulatory tools and legislative tools and what have you, that you can use instead to get to the same place. Yeah. It costs a little bit more.
Markham:You can have that discussion. Acts the tax, was not anything about that. It was just all about political intimidation. You know, there was a a Gore Johns, who's the MP for Port Alberni on the Vancouver Island, had an axe thrown through his plate glass window of his of his constituency office. That kind of stuff.
Markham:So but on the other hand, who stands up to these people? They show up at events. They show up at you know, they show things, and they and they, you know, they disrupt, your your events and disrupt your reporting. And and and the people in power rarely do stand. I would agree with you.
Markham:I've seen that myself. And, until the some of our leaders, elected leaders and others, puts gets some steel in their spine and speak out against it, this is going to continue. And I I agree with you. I think that those leaders speaking out is an important part of reversing the trend.
Brett:Mhmm. Agreed. Agreed.
Markham:On that point, sir, thank you very much for this. This has been a fascinating conversation. Good luck with whatever happens, over the next 2 years with your memory. We might have to have you on in a year. Yes.
Markham:And, anyway, good luck.
Brett:Yes. Thank you, Mark. I'm all all the pleasure.