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Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown, where we take questions about faith, the bible, and culture, and give you honest practical advice you can trust. This is a space to ask anything and get real answers for real life. We're glad you're here. Now let's get into today's episode.
Tammy Brown:Welcome back to the debrief with my husband, pastor Matthew Brown Matthew Steven Brown.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Matthew Brown. Call me whatever. My mom calls me Matthew Steven. That makes me
Tammy Brown:in trouble. Matthew Steven. Welcome to the debrief with pastor Matthew Steven Brown, where we, we mostly Matt, answers your tough questions or questions you have about the weekend messages at Sandals Church or just some questions you might have that you wanna ask your pastor, and I get to help facilitate that. So I am Tammy, his cohost, and let's get into today's episode. This first question, I feel like I could answer on your behalf because you've had to have this talk with me over the years so many times.
Tammy Brown:So Samantha, you're my people. I've been there. Samantha from Highland asks, as the parents of adult children, how do you navigate conflict with your children? Very carefully. The dynamic should be different but they still live at home and I don't know how to get them to obey me.
Tammy Brown:Every conversation or disagreement is an argument. So the question is how do you navigate conflict with your
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:children? Tammy and I do we fight about it. That's how we
Tammy Brown:We do. So, all right, next question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No, it's very, very difficult. And again, this week's sermon on marriage, I think it's so important that we understand that God made men one way and God made women another way. And that's important for the marriage because we need to see things from different perspectives in order to raise kids. You know, ideally the best situation is a mom and a dad at home. I realize that's not always a situation.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Samantha, I don't know if that's your situation. So women tend not all sometimes it's the guy, but usually speaking, women tend to notice things that are out of place or wrong or unsettling. They tend to be more critical within the context of relationships. Just that's kind of a generalization. And so evolutionary psychologists say that's because when a woman has the child, they have to be aware of things that are out of place or wrong or not right.
Tammy Brown:Like out of a protective nature?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because that could mean a predator is near. So that's an evolutionary psychologist perspective. I just think God designed women to be more protective. When you're more protective, you have a critical eye of what could be wrong or is out of place. So if you're a single mom, you know, and I don't know that you are, but this all falls on you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, know, the conflict that Tammy and I tend to have is Tammy wants everything to be addressed immediately. I tend to want to evaluate, discuss and talk about whether or not it should be addressed. And I think your feedback would be that probably that I push some things off that, you know, that, you
Tammy Brown:know That would exactly be my feedback.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, so her feedback would be that I don't want to deal with whatever the issue is. My feedback would be not every issue needs to be dealt with. And that's why a marriage is so important because we approach things differently. And let me just say, sometimes in our church, that's the husband. I don't want to speak that, you know, genders are just facts and people are always that way because there's always couples that are a little bit different.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But in our situation, Tammy tends to be the one that wants to deal with the issue. I tend to be the one that doesn't want to deal with that. And that doesn't just have to do with our genders, has with our personalities. So in counseling, I'm dismissive and avoid. Dismissive.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And Tammy is attack annihilate.
Tammy Brown:So no. Burn and Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Burn and learn. That's how she teaches. What I would say is as parents of adult children, and so I just think you need to learn that there's a transition. So years ago, you and I talked about this when kids are little, right, you're the cop. So you are enforcement, you are protector, like you put them in jail timeout, like you're the disciplinarian.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then, you know, you kind of have to shift to coach. And so I don't know, you know, what age these adult children are, but then you're kind of coaching because they have freedoms. And so that's a really hard thing for parents to get, and it's a hard thing for kids to get because kids play both sides. Sometimes they want the parent, but sometimes they want the coach, sometimes they want nothing. And as a parent, it's really difficult to navigate what that is.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But here's what I want every parent to really, really deal with is who's going to make the adjustments? If you're expecting the kid to make the adjustments, I think you're in for a lot of heartache and a lot of hurt. As the adult, you know, Tammy and I always have this conversation, it's our job to change. It's our job to counsel, to learn, to try to help them massage into adulthood because they're learning. You and I have, you know, I don't know what you'd say thirty years practice now where this is something that's new for them.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So you go from cop to coach, then to counselor. And so what's the difference between a coach and a counselor? A coach, you're actively involved in the decision making. A counselor, right? You go to the counselor and say, here's what I did.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:My life is falling apart. And you can't say I told you so. And why don't you ever listen and lose your mind? You have to understand that once your kids are adults, you just don't get to micromanage their decisions. Now here's where it gets complicated.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I think Tammy would agree with you, Samantha, but they still live at home. And so that's where we have to say adult ish. So adults are people that are on their own financially supportive and they're not living under their roof. So they are adults in age, but they're not adults yet in practice. So there needs to be some conversation about how to manage.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So we have our 23 year old son that lives at home. And when we have talks, it's no longer mom and dad and son, it is roommates. And here's the things we expect as roommates, and let me just emphasize non paying rental roommates, okay? We don't charge our son rent. That's an opinion or that's a decision we made.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But we do have expectations as roommates and he needs to be aware of that. And there were things he got away with as a boy because his mom cleaned up after him, which now like we don't wanna be doing that.
Tammy Brown:No, we don't.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so he needs to grow up and change. And I challenge him as a man, look, your wife's not gonna like your mess. Your wife's not gonna wanna clean up after you. And even if she does it, she'll resent you eventually. So that's, you know, people that clean up after a dirty spouse or roommate eventually just leave because it's frustrating.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Nobody wants to care for an animal. They want to either have a roommate that's a person or a spouse that's a person. So I try to coach him as a man. I try to challenge him from a point of manhood. What I have to challenge Tammy on constantly is what were you thinking as a 21 year old?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Were you as a 23
Tammy Brown:year old?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Tammy tends to think of the situation as a 50 year old. Now, if I just was 50, I'd be ticked. This is ridiculous. But I'm 50. I'm actually going to be 55.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I have a level of wisdom and experience. I mean, think about it. I had almost thirty years of experience before he was born. He's new to the game. He's learning.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It doesn't mean we excuse behaviors. It means we have grace for his naivete. He's just naive and that's nothing. If you're in your twenties, I don't want you to hear insult. I want you to hear reality.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You just don't know what you need to know yet. And let me say this as a 55 year old, my mom's turning 80 this year and we're gonna celebrate her birthday. When she talks about what it feels like to be 80, you and I don't know what that feels like. I'm ignorant and naive to that reality. And I can kid myself all day long that I know how I would react.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I think, Samantha, we can be critical in both ways. We can be critical of our kids and we can be overly critical of our parents because we don't know what what that's like. So I would say, talk to them like a counselor, but you have to ask, do you want counsel? Sometimes the only way they learn is by making decisions. So you said, I don't know how you get them to obey me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You don't.
Tammy Brown:Yeah, was curious about the word obey. I think in this season of life, obey.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's an unhealthy expectation.
Tammy Brown:Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What you need to say is, Hey, look, you're a tenant. Here's my expectation. So like a tenant, right? There's a contract. You pay your rent.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If you don't pay, there's a ten day late. There's a twenty day late. There's a thirty day late. Like if you damage things, like you got to pay for them, there's an expectation. You know, my son was taking my jackets, I like jackets, if you don't follow us on church, I like jackets.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He was taking them to work and I said, you know what, that's great, but you can pay the $20 per jacket to clean it. He was like, woah, you know, because he doesn't want to pay that. But that's an expectation as a roommate. So dad and son, right? Dad picks up the bill.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Roommates, hey bud, you got a job, you're professional, you got to do it. And so what I would say is obey is a word I would stay away from. I would say contracts. And we actually have friends that did an MOI with their son. So I don't remember what MOI stands for.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Do you?
Tammy Brown:No. You just told me several times. But the idea is It's
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:mode of something.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. I don't remember. Yeah. I think it's not MOI. But regardless, I think one of the big pivots like you're saying that's even helped us with our son is I started having a different expectation of him as an adult when he graduated college and came home, and there wasn't a clarifying time with him.
Tammy Brown:They were it was unspoken. And I think all of us at any age when we get back around our siblings or our parents, we kind of revert back to a version of us, right, that you relax into. Like, ugh, I can be the kid again. I'm with my parents or whatever. And so when our son came back, he's living at home right now, I had a whole set of different expectations of who I thought he needed to be at 22.
Tammy Brown:Now he's 23. But we hadn't had a real clarifying conversation of that until it got heated. Yeah. And I wish in hindsight, we could have done that a little different. Like, okay.
Tammy Brown:Hey. You're coming home. Here's some here's, like, our general expectations. And the truth is at 23, he gets to have some different expectations as well. Meaning, he doesn't have to tell me what he's doing all hours of the day.
Tammy Brown:He's 23. In high school, he did. Now he doesn't. And and that was one of the things you helped coach me on is like, he is a young man. Like, he he doesn't have to run everything by you.
Tammy Brown:Ask your permission to go here or there. You and I've got to set like, hey. You need to kinda be home at this time or let us know you're not coming home. Like, he has some different things, but I wish we would have done that and known to do that on the front end. We did it on the back end when it got tension tense and angry and mad and it was a conflict.
Tammy Brown:Since he's been more clear on our expectations and we've kind of said, like, here's what we're okay with, but we're not okay with, It has gotten so much sweeter at home. And I would say this to moms of adult kids. I am still learning this. I'm Matt Matt and I are in real time figuring out how to be in laws to our son in laws. If you've listened to past episodes on the debrief, you know, there's been times where I could feel that our daughters were coming to us too much before they would go to their husbands.
Tammy Brown:And having to say like train myself to go, have you talked to Jackson about that? Have you talked to Logan about that? Those are their husbands. Because their natural tendency was gonna be to go to mom and dad because that's what they've been doing the majority of their life. And they've had to like change and develop into like, no, you need to go to your husband.
Tammy Brown:Similar with our son, you know, we're having to pivot and go, okay, how do we treat a 23 year old? It needs to be different than when he was 16 years old. And so what are the absolute non negotiables? I think what you're saying about me is I would make everything a non negotiable, which is not realistic, and it is a recipe for disaster. So Matt helps me to really like what are our absolute absolute non negotiables.
Tammy Brown:The other thing and again, Samantha, I wish we had a little more context if you were a single mom or you had a partner because with our son, we've just had to say, here's some conversations that need to be man to man.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:And I need to stay out of. Now don't get me wrong. I want to get up in all the business. Yes. You do.
Tammy Brown:Like, I wanna get in there. I wanna but there are just some things, you know, where he hears me talking. It's like the naggy mom where he needs to be approached as a man to man and get buy in in that way. But I think the idea of obeying is different than respecting. Yeah.
Tammy Brown:That's good word.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:At
Tammy Brown:this stage in life, like we're we have an expectation that our son lives respectfully in our home the same way we try to treat him with respect. Navigating adult kids is really interesting and tricky.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:And it has you know, as a mom, it's like I was responsible for all of everything for eighteen years. And then all of a sudden, it's like this this like hard stop to when I'm not. And there's a little season of, like, dialing that back even mentally for me. Having to start conversations are like, do you need me to be a listener right now, or are you asking for my advice? Like, I think I think your parenting might need some reflection on how to coach adult kids.
Tammy Brown:And even with our son and and not for any particular reason, but one of the things Matt's been so good at helping me do this pivot is saying, when did we grow and learn the best into adulthood? And unfortunately, that tends to be on the other side of hardship. Making a bad decision and going, is this who I wanna be? Is this the consequences I wanna live with? Is this the direction I wanna go?
Tammy Brown:We tend to do our best growth and gain our best wisdom on the other side of hardship.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:And so as a mom, my prayer for my son in this season is that he experiences just enough hardship to make him really decide who he wants to be Mhmm. And the decision he wants to make in the life he wants to live. So I'm like, Lord, I want him to have some hardship but not have so much that it's life altering forever. But just enough because the truth is our adult kids have to have buy in to who they wanna be. At some point, they will stop being who they think we want them to be.
Tammy Brown:We want them to be who God wants them to be, and it it tends to come when they have real buy in to to that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So I just to summarize, Samantha and to our listeners, I think the word is respect. I would stay away from the word obey. I think that children who are are minors should obey. I think that children who are adults should respect, but that has to go both ways.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So we as parents have to be respectful to them and their desire desires and their decisions. You know? And there are limits to that. I mean, you know, like you can say, you know, one of the non negotiables for us and our son has not pushed us on this, but it's no girls over. Like, like we don't allow girls to spend the night at our house.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now he hasn't pushed on that. We don't allow drugs in our house. I mean, are some of our rules, but that's not asking him to obey. It's a tenant agreement. And so that's just what I said.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, we don't, we don't, I don't let my friends come over and do drugs. I don't let my friends come over and do adultery, do adultery, commit adultery. You know, that's that's not who we are. And respect has to go both ways. And, you know, I need to respect his individuality, but he needs to respect my maturity and my faith.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so that, you know, that's where, you know, it's been. And I remember having a conversation, this is a couple of years ago when he was struggling. I said, look, whether you love God or not, I love you. Nothing is ever gonna change it. Obviously, I hope that you choose to love God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think that it's the best way to live. It's the right way to live. But my love for you is not dependent upon you being a Christian. Like you don't have to ask for my love. And I believe as a godly father, it's my job to love my kid no matter what.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But what I said is what I want is an honest relationship because I don't think a lying relationship is a relationship at all. So I think a mockery of anything. I don't lie to him and I didn't want to be lied to and we worked through that. But it's scary when you love your kids and you know, or you believe that what they're doing is wrong. You need to find a way to communicate that and when to communicate that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the best way is just to ask, hey, do you want my feedback on this? And again, go back to, you know, the the I think it was the the mode of operation. I can't remember what the I stands for. But basically, it's a contract that says
Tammy Brown:I think it's u, m o u.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:M o u. Yeah. So you're gonna do I'm understanding. Yeah. There we go.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:See, that's why I got my better half on the show.
Tammy Brown:If you see Nancy Sally, ask her. It's her
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:thing. But here's our understanding of this relationship. And ultimately, if your kids don't agree to that understanding, and I'm not saying it has to be all you because like when you go and rent a place, if the landlord says it's $10,000 a month, you go, no. So you know what I'm saying? So it's, there's a contract that is agreeable to both parties in every tenant situation.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so it can't be all mom and dad. Because if you do that, then you're prohibiting your child from growing up. If it's all you and you're still the parent and they obey, how are they exercising adulthood? How are they growing in maturity? How are they discovering who they are?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It actually shrinks the process and holds them back.
Tammy Brown:Well, it sets them up for future conflict in their Yeah. Relationship. So I think, you know, I I have gotten this wrong so many times, Samantha. Let me just tell you how many times I've gotten that wrong a lot. And I've had to go back to all three of our adult kids and say, I know that I've created and I did because I operate out of fear, which can come out as anger.
Tammy Brown:And I've made my kids feel sometimes like it's unsafe to be real with me. And so I'm like that, you know, I want to to acknowledge that my overreaction sometimes has made it feel unsafe to even be a flawed human to them. And so my kids don't always feel like they wanna just rush in and and share things with me or tell me the truth or just encounter me because they're afraid that I'm going to absolutely flip out. I've had to work on reestablishing how I'm gonna respond to them, but also acknowledge it. You know, you and I both with our it's like, man, when you know better, you do better hopefully.
Tammy Brown:And you got you and I parented in some ways. We're like, oh, we didn't super love that we did that. Obviously, you're trying to do the best you can. And when you you know, you do the best when you know. When you know better, you do better, which is how we've tried to be.
Tammy Brown:But one of the things I think all three of our adult kids have said to us is they actually appreciate when we own our stuff.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:There's been times I've been like, I overreacted so bad. I am so sorry. Please forgive me. You've had to do the same thing with them. What that does though, it could feel like you're giving away your cards to your kids, but actually what it does is model to them how to do the same.
Tammy Brown:Mhmm. Let me be honest with you how I'm feeling. Let me you know, I I just I've blown it so much. And I'm so my point is sometimes you may have created a situation with your kids. It's not too late to dial that back.
Tammy Brown:It's not too late to reestablish. I've had to go, can we have a redo? Can we
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:have a reset? Oh.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. Many times. And so I hope that's helpful,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Samantha. Samantha, the way to walk to walk this back is you have to go first. So that's what leaders do. Leaders have to go first. Leaders have to die first, and you have to apologize for your part.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, there's no way this is all just your kid's fault. I'm not saying they're not guilty. They're not wrong. I'm just saying as a parent, you have to own your participation in this.
Tammy Brown:Are your expectations realistic for other humans?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And then just, you know,
Tammy Brown:just And maybe they are, but
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, mean, they could be. But just say, because you wouldn't send this in if you were ready for this, them just to be gone. What this question tells me is you love them, care for them, and you want a relationship with them. And so if that's the goal, the best way is to wave your white flag and say, look, mom, sorry. I lost my temper.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know? And
Tammy Brown:Or let's get on the same page about house expectations. Like, you're not a child anymore. And so you can't you can't behave like a child but expect the benefits of an adult.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And I mean and and and and like if it's smoking, I mean, restaurants are no smoking everywhere. So so why would you do at home that you're not what you're not allowed to do on an airplane or or in a restaurant? It's like you have to persuade them as an adult. Like you're you're being unreasonable.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't like the smell of smoke. I don't want it in my house. I wish that you wouldn't do it because I think it's unhealthy. Right? But you're an adult, you get to choose whatever you wanna do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But as the owner of this property, I'm asking that you respect me and not do it in your room.
Tammy Brown:And here's the thing though not to I mean, some parents draw a line and I've drawn this line like when the kids were little, I'd be like, you're literally on restriction forever. And you're like, forever, Tam? Like, I probably that line was probably too far. You need to make sure that you're and we've had to do this better over the years drawing a line that you can keep. And part of that line with adult kids, and you and I have talked about this, is there may come a point where it's like, here's the expectations to live here.
Tammy Brown:You don't have to do that. You don't have to live here. Now in my heart, I'm like, oh, I don't want you to move out. But we've talked about moving out might be the very thing that grows them up. Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:When they're like, oh, there's not just always toilet paper on the roll
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:and Yeah. Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Food in the fridge and all of that kind of stuff. And so that might you might come to that and be like, I love you. I love you if you live here or you don't live here. But living here needs to look a little bit more like this. And then whatever the like this is does need to be a bit realistic because I tend to sometimes have expectations.
Tammy Brown:If my kids hear this, they'll laugh so hard. I tend to have expectations that I probably myself couldn't even live by, but I'm wanting my kids to. So, like, determine what, like, the non negotiables are and like living here looks like this. You help carry the load now. If you don't wanna be treated like a child, you don't get to act like a child but get the benefits of an adult.
Tammy Brown:And so I think those are great conversations.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Samantha, we love you. If we've offended you, that was our intent.
Tammy Brown:But we're with you. We're with you on that. Okay. This next question, Matt, comes from Makayla, Riverside, California. Also such a good question.
Tammy Brown:It says, hi, pastor Matt. The message from Matthew 18 was great, and I appreciated your sermon. The message opens with the assumption that a believer has conflict with another believer. But what if we have conflict with someone who does not share the same beliefs we have as Christians? Thank you so much and I would greatly appreciate your input on this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Makayla, thank you for your just your great feedback on Matthew 18. That's a tough passage. And let me say this, we all struggle with that. And what I would say is Matthew 18 is hard enough to accomplish with a believer.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's gonna be impossible without a believer because believers share a unique common thread, right? We're all sinners. We all have made mistakes. We need to give forgiveness and receive forgiveness. And so if I'm entering into a relationship where someone doesn't share the same beliefs that I have, I still need to probably try to do Matthew 18 the best I can, but I can't have expectations that they would do it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's just not fair to them. They're operating from a different platform and a different understanding than I am. So what I would do, Mikayla, is I would try to meet with the person individually and say, Hey, you know, here's what happened. Remember, identify the what, not the why. That's really, really important.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You don't ever want to assign motive. You don't ever want to try to be, you know, the true crime, you know, solving it, you know, behind the scenes, but just say, Hey, here's what you did. Here's how it makes me feel. And I don't want that to happen again. So how can we stop this or, you know, and then see where it goes from there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't know that a second person would be helpful. I think you could maybe say, would you be interested or open to going to counseling? I think that's a more normal behavior for culture. I think if they're a believer, you can say, hey, Matthew 18 says that we should involve others. Are you okay with that?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What you shouldn't do, and I didn't say this in the sermon, is just show up at their house with new people. Oh, by the way, bought Bill and Ted here. You know, we're gonna have an excellent adventure and it's gonna be awesome. They're gonna be so ticked. I think that you need to constantly, as a believer, let people know that you're trying to submit to Scripture rather than beating them up with it and saying, Hey, would you be okay with this?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So you could say something like this, Makayla, you know, Hey, you know, I know that didn't go really well when we talked and I'm sorry for that. You know, I was reading the Bible, which is really important to me and it suggests that when there's conflict like this, that we should involve somebody else. Who's somebody else that you think could help us navigate this?
Tammy Brown:I think that's good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So you could say maybe a counselor, maybe a friend, maybe it's another relative. And so I have a friend of mine and he and his wife did not disagree at all about money. They just did not. They were not on the same page. And he was
Tammy Brown:They didn't agree on it or You they didn't disagree.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sorry. They did not agree.
Tammy Brown:They did not agree.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:A couple negative. You can't do that. They were not on the same page about money. And, you know, his wife was an accountant and he was a Christian and there and so he finally said the way he did this was, is there someone in our life that you would listen to and submit to? And here's the thing is, she said yes and picked his parents.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So he thought, yep, I'm gonna win. Well, when he met with his parents who were Christians, they actually sided with her. And so he, you know, he was like, what? And so he, you know, he was, he really, really felt kind of bamboozled by Matthew 18, but he said it was the best decision ever and ultimately because what it taught his wife was that he could submit to her feelings and concerns, even though he believed he was right. So what it was, it was an investment in a house.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He wanted to buy another house. And what his parents said was, this is not a good time to add stress on your wife with two little kids at home, even though it's a good investment. So his parents were genius. It's a good investment, but now's not the time. We side with your wife.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And you know, so she was like, yes. But it created a couple of things for him. Number one, as a Christian man, she now knew that his word was his bond. So he because he submitted to it even though he didn't agree and it helped her to trust his parents more. So that helped out in that situation.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm not saying it always goes great. So I would say, is there somebody in your life that we could submit to? So a couple of years ago, this is fifteen years ago, there was a staff member. You don't say their name. You remember that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They were very upset with me. And
Tammy Brown:I'm literally like, it could be somebody.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Could be a lot of people. But they went to another pastor. Not funny. They went to another pastor and basically slandered me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And this pastor met with me, violated Matthew 18, surprised me. You know, I thought we were going to coffee, through this thing.
Tammy Brown:Coffee. Coffee
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Coffee is my worst is my know, never do that to somebody. Always tell people if it's negative, always tell people, hey, I'd like to talk about some difficult things. You know, don't surprise people. That never helps the situation. But you know what I said?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I said, you know what? I'll meet with you and this person who's offended. And I said, whatever decision you render, I will submit to it whether I agreed to it or not. And do you know that staff member would not go to coffee? He would not meet.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because ultimately I think what he was afraid of is the truth, what is going to come out. And so I don't know because you know, me and that person haven't spoken for years, but they didn't come. But ultimately it was me practicing this. And so remember that Matthew 18, Makayla, is really about submitting to leadership and you never submit. It is impossible to submit to something you agree to.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's agreement. Submission is I don't agree, but I will follow.
Tammy Brown:I will honor
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:it. And a lot of Christians, this is why they don't know how to submit. And so, you know, wives get a lot of attention in Matthew or excuse me, Ephesians five, wives submit to your husbands, right? And so women get very upset with that passage. But what they don't read is the few verses before Paul says, we submit to each other as under Christ.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So a husband is to be practicing submission. So that it's not some foreign concept that the wife is only expected to do, but it's something that's been modeled. And so what I would say is you can try to apply Matthew 18 in principle, but you can't do it exactly in practice because they don't have to agree to this. So what I would say is you go to the person, doesn't work, maybe you could involve somebody else. And then if it's a family member and you want to go to no contact, I would bring it to the church and I would say, I went to them, we talked about this, I tried to involve a counselor, they would not do it or it did not go well.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Is it okay biblically if I have some boundaries and space from this person? It's not biblically okay to hate them, wish them harm, carry bitterness, anger or slander them or gossip about. None of those things are okay. The question is, is it okay for me to have space from this person?
Tammy Brown:Yeah. You don't need to be showing up the same way or or give them as much access. I think no contact is pretty severe. But Yeah. The boundaries and the no access or or or a different way of access, I think,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:for sure.
Tammy Brown:You know, we've had to have that where we have high conflict with people, and we've ever said, like, here's what we need in the relationship. Sometimes it's gone well, and sometimes it hasn't. It's like, okay. Well, then we just we are kind to each other when we see each other. We see each other big things, but maybe we don't get together just us for dinner anymore or whatever.
Tammy Brown:It just it changes the nature of it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So Mikaela, this is why I think this is a great question. I think it's really easy to study God's Word. It's really hard to live it out.
Tammy Brown:And
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I just think we all need to admit that Mikayla's question is really all of our questions because we all interact with people that don't have the same understanding of life. And we're even oftentimes we're in relationships with Christians that don't I was gonna do this say at it. Like
Tammy Brown:I don't think it's just a non believer thing. I think a lot of Christians have a really hard time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've ran into somebody and say, I haven't seen you. Oh, I left Sandals ten years ago because I hated you. I'm like, okay, well, that's
Tammy Brown:I love when that happens. It's fun.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. It's not fun. She's she's actually
Tammy Brown:It's the most it's terrible.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And by the way, never go up to somebody and say, I've been mad at you for ten years. That's just not helpful. You can say something like, hey, God's really convicted me. I need to have more grace and in general, and I should have been more gracious to you. But don't tell somebody you've hated, mocked him, and slandered them for ten years.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That just makes Tammy and I wanna
Tammy Brown:Or maybe don't schedule a coffee date to let them know you're forgiving them for the hate you've had for ten years that they never knew. I'm just throwing that out there. Okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's a great way to spend money on counseling. Okay.
Tammy Brown:Spent some money
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:on it. Is it getting hot in here?
Tammy Brown:Alright.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Alright.
Tammy Brown:This wow. This whole all these questions so far, and even this next one is just so it hits so close to home, which is so good because, obviously, the things we go to through feel so unique to us, but they're pretty human. They're pretty human problems. And so these are really good questions. Thank you for Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Everyone who sends these in. They end up helping a lot more people than I think you think they would help. So this last one comes from Danielle from Hemet California. It says this, how much grace should we offer to someone who is never willing to take accountability or apologize?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So this is a this is really a great question. And I think as Christians, struggle with this because of the divorce of Judaism and Christianity.
Tammy Brown:Do tell.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I actually think it was Dennis Prager. God bless him. I I love him. He's a great thinker, great mind.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He fell down the stairs and broke his neck. So he's paraplegic right now. One of the great, great minds and thinkers of our age. I really love Dennis. Obviously I disagree with him on some things, but he wrote a Bible commentary.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Just he wrote a book on happiness that changed my life. I read that book like twenty years ago and the book was entitled Happiness is a Serious Problem. And I mean, was written in the nineties. So think about nowadays, you know? The book probably he would write nowadays, it would be happiness is an impossibility.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I don't mean that he believed that, but that's culture. Happiness is just this thing that we pursue but can't ever seem to grasp. But, you know, he really challenged my thinking on grace. And so I think what Christians believe is we have to forgive people no matter what they do and stay in relationship and it becomes really, really an abusive relationship and it becomes very unhealthy. So according to the teaching that I gave in Matthew 18, Daniel, which is I think your question, Jesus tells a story about a man who begged for forgiveness.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He did not have the money to pay and the king forgave him. And then he goes to another person who owes him money and begs for, you know, for forgiveness and asks him to eliminate his debt and he chokes him. So he literally in the text, he chokes him by the neck and throws him in jail. And that greatly offends Jesus. And so just notice that in the text, in this text, the issue of forgiveness and grace is directly related to repentance.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Peter's asking, how many times should I forgive someone who asks for forgiveness? Who repents and asks for forgiveness, right? In the context of Matthew 18, you go to the person, you confront them, listen to the language, if they repent and confess, you have won your brother back. The context for reconciliation is repentance and confession. You cannot stay in relationship with a person that will not repent and will not confess.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's abuse. So the issue is relationship. How do we stay in relationship with people? We have to give forgiveness and grace every time they're sorry and they forgive and repent. So let's let's take this deeper.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:From time to time I run into, you know, people that were abused by their dad or neglected by their dad or molested by their dad. And there's a wedding or something. This has probably come up 10 times, and their relatives are pressuring them to invite that that man to their wedding. And they're like, should I do it? And I'm like, well, has he asked for forgiveness?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I to this day, I've never had a woman say yes. And I say absolutely not. Grace is not something that makes it you can't hate the person, you can't want to judge the person, you can't wish them ill will, you can't give into bitterness, you can't give into hatred, but you don't have to be in relationship with your abuser. And I would even say even if they did ask for forgiveness, that doesn't mean you have to invite them to your wedding. I would say, is this a person that you want on that special day?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And if you said yes, I'd be like, well, maybe we need to go to counseling because I don't know that that's healthy there either. The context is can can we give people grace that that that we need? And we need to do that. It doesn't mean we have to be best friends. It doesn't mean we have to be in relationship.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It doesn't mean we have to have them over. It doesn't mean they have to be in our wedding. What it means is I can't give the devil a foothold in my life and hold people to a standard that I know I can't meet myself. And so I just think it's really, really important that, you know, for Dennis Prager, he was the first one as a Jewish believer who really showed that the Jewish concept of forgiveness is rooted in when someone is sorry, repented and wants forgiveness. And then you grant it, but you don't just arbitrarily blanket people with this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what I mean by give people grace is have a level of understanding that you mess up to. And and generally speaking, we tend to be more critical of others and more gracious to ourselves. And we need to exercise judgment in in being less critical of people and giving them grace. But when there's a direct offense, the whole principle that Jesus is teaching here is the person is sorry. They have repented.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then when that happens, as a friend, as a family member, so if Tammy and I get in a fight and she catches me looking at pornography, which I did not, but let's just say that, okay? And she's really angry, justifiably so. She confronts me and I'm convicted of my sin. I'm sorry for it. I think it's terrible, it's awful, and it's ugly, and I don't want to do it anymore.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I am going to go to men's sexual freedom. I am going to give her the passwords to my computer. You know, like I'm going to take steps that show that it's not just language. She's obligated as a Christian wife to forgive me and to stay in relationship with me. Okay, so right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But the issue is genuine repentance. It's not lip service. It's not me manipulating her as a Christian woman. None of that is true. But if she confronts me and I'm like, I gaslight her.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's not what you saw. That's not what happened. I don't have a problem. The problem is you. She is not under obligation to forgive me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I haven't asked for forgiveness. So to me, is something that's requested. Grace is this general principle of I live and operate by grace. I need to live and operate by grace with others. And so that's where I think the confusion is.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so if someone is is not willing to take accountability or will not apologize, and here's the thing, if someone cannot ever apologize, I don't believe they're a Christian. Because what makes you a Christian is you are able to apologize to God. And if you can't do that, to me, I have a hard time believing that you've done that to God. You might believe in God, great, so does the devil according to James. Great.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So you and the devil are the same and you're acting the same. So
Tammy Brown:Oh my gosh.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know,
Tammy Brown:I was gonna say one of one of the things in this question though, I think is in the language because it seems like the real question is how much forgiveness should we give someone who's never willing to take accountability or apologize. And what you're talking so I think the word grace here might look a little different. When I think of this, I've had situations in my life, my fifty two years of life where I've learned that I have to ask what does grace look like? Because grace, like you said, is like I live under amount of grace with like, grew up a certain way. I've had certain tendencies.
Tammy Brown:I have certain flaws. I have certain all these things that people manage to be in relationship with me. Right? Because I'm broken. And so like understanding people are doing that for me should give me that like, you know what?
Tammy Brown:I can understand that maybe you didn't have a mom or a dad or a family system or security or whatever that's given you some some edges
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:That I can have grace for. But I've had in seasons had to say like, okay, I can I can hold at the same time an understanding for you behave this way because?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:But then sometimes grace but I don't have to keep jumping in the arena with that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:And then I'm now angry at you and wanting an apology from you for something you actually don't even think you did, sometimes grace looks like I can love you from afar
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Without being angry at you, wanting ill will towards you. I can appreciate or have understanding for why you do what you do without constantly putting myself in the line of fire of what you do. And sometimes I think there has there there's there's room for saying or in this question, why are you always in a place to have to hold them accountable at this point or wait for an apology?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:You can know who they are Yeah. And believe it and then do with that what you will. Yeah. Maybe you distance yourself. Give them less access to you, share less with them.
Tammy Brown:Don't put them in positions in your life for disappointment or hurt. You know, you and I have been in a situation we've had someone, I would say similar to this, where there's just like for decades zero accountability or apologies from some really, really bad behaviors. And I don't know when it was if four or five years ago you and I were like, wait, are they the problem or are we? Because we keep and expecting different. Is that on them or is that on us?
Tammy Brown:And we decided that's on us and we started engaging differently. We started not showing up. We started not including them into things that were special for us because then we're not expecting or like holding someone accountable. And so I think those are some things Danielle to maybe think through of like, why are you still willing to try to expect something different from them and then requiring grace or accountability or apologies? If they're showing you who they are, you need to believe them and then act accordingly.
Tammy Brown:If you wanna keep, you and I decided, like, we're tired of being treated this way. We're tired of every event that we're at together getting spoiled by this behavior. Yeah. We're tired of the joy being stolen. We're tired of the mean spiritedness.
Tammy Brown:We're tired of all of this. They're not changing, so we needed to change. And so that's maybe the question I would put out for you, Danielle, is you can have grace and understanding. And for this person, you probably know who we're talking about, but like we could go, they had an upbringing like this. It makes sense that they behave like that.
Tammy Brown:We've tried for decades to say we're safe. We love you. We can handle it. Or to prove that you don't have to behave that way. It didn't change.
Tammy Brown:So we had to change.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:And then it was like we're expecting accountability or apologies from someone. At some point that becomes on you and not on them. It just does.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think what you said was brilliant. You said Wait. What? Yeah. It was brilliant.
Tammy Brown:Well, let's rehear it then.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think that Danielle, grace is loving people from afar. How does God love sinners? He loves them from afar. How does God love people in relationship? There is no other way around this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:God only loves people in relationship who repent of their sins Mhmm. And believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. That's the gospel. So even the God of grace. Right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So if we think about first Corinthians thirteen fourteen, may the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. It All of that comes through Jesus. The grace of Lord Jesus Christ. Well, how do we receive grace? We come into relationship with God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So godly grace in relationship is based upon repentance and confession and accountability. God, I did this. I'm sorry. I'm going to change. So even even God forgives.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now there's a blanket grace. Jesus says, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do. There's no way that the Romans officers who nailed him to the cross were aware that they were participating in the salvation of humanity. Those Roman soldiers were not in the court. They were not in the hearing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They didn't hear the Pharisees attack him. They don't know what they're dispensing judgment, but they weren't a part of the trial. And so Jesus is saying, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do. Now that could have been everybody there. We don't know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But ultimately, the only way those people receive forgiveness is not through Jesus just blanket stating that. They receive forgiveness by repenting. So when Peter preaches the gospel in Acts chapter two, he says, you crucified the Lord God Almighty. And the Jewish people go, what do we do? Repent of the Lord and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, he just, you gotta say you're sorry. So the very group of people that potentially were there when Jesus is saying, father forgive them for, The question is, how are they forgiven? They are forgiven because he's saying, Father, I want you to forgive them. So how is God going to forgive them? By repenting of their sins and placing their faith and trust in Jesus Christ.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And Peter preaches that message to the people that would have been there to crucify him. You crucified the Lord. You did. I mean, that is like, you know, you and I, we all in this room, we can say, yeah, yeah, my sins put Jesus Christ on the cross. Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But imagine we're the ones. We actually did it. You know, we pressed the button on the gas chamber. We electrocuted him. We, I mean, so Peter says you did that, repent of your sins and believe Lord Jesus Christ.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I think there's a general grace that we need to live in. And so I love how the new living translation gives us this verse. Says, if you guys can put it in the notes, it says, forgive one another as you've been forgiven in Christ, make an allowance for each other's, listen to this word, faults. There's a difference between faults and people sinning, wounding, belittling, attacking you. You know, like Tammy needs to give grace for my faults.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:She doesn't need to make excuses for my sin. Those are
Tammy Brown:two,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:know, like I have faults as a human being. I'm imperfect, but I also have sin. And so sin is something that needs to be dealt with and held accountable to maintain relationship. But you can't just be like, I don't like your personality. That's You're annoying.
Tammy Brown:Annoying. Annoying isn't sin or
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:debate. That's a that's actually a you problem. That's not not a them problem.
Tammy Brown:You know, and Danielle, with this question, you know, we're being so blanket about it. We don't know is this are you talking about friendships, family, or a spouse? With a spouse, it would be a little bit different. How would you say like, how would I know I'm throwing this at you right now, but like, to a person that's like, my spouse will never apologize or take accountability. You we can't you can't apply the same answer that we just gave to your spouse necessarily.
Tammy Brown:You can't Yeah. Set engage differently. I mean, you could, but, like, you can't cut off, if you will, stop inviting, stop. So if this is a spouse and you feel like you're you're married to someone that will never take accountability or apologize, think I some of that you kind of answered in the previous question about bringing in a third party, but I'm just wanting to throw that out there because obviously we don't have context for this and we don't wanna be giving advice to a married person that's just like stop engaging with Yeah. Your
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Two things. I think that's great, Tammy. You know, I think we all hear what we wanna hear. And so the best advice I would give to every Christian is always question your initial response. I just would.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sometimes that's the Holy Spirit. For me, it's almost always my selfish desires and what I want. And so I I need to invite the Holy Spirit to convict me about something that I just wanna do as a person. And the next thing I would say, and and you guys need to remind me to say this. I need to say this every episode and I don't, a podcast is not a pastor.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It just isn't. You cannot replace a living, breathing human being that's looking you in the face, that's listening to you, that knows you, that knows your husband, your kids, your spouse. Like I can talk topically, but I can't talk personally because I'm not in it. And, you know, part of what's wrong in this digital age is we've all run to podcasts, we've all run to, you know, I mean, this whole idea that my community is online. You know, there's something that happens, you know, we have a pastor at Sandals, Doctor.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Eric Sallie, and he said there's something chemically that happens when we see each other face to face in their eyes. There's a sparkle that only occurs in person, not online. The brain does not perceive it on a screen. And so so we need that. We need that face to face.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We need that that eye contact, that connection. And that's so important. Now I get it scary. People will hurt you and people are broken. But people are also beautiful and I'm super excited.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, we're we're bringing somebody on staff and I can't announce it. But I've been begging this person to be on staff with me for five years. And Tammy and I are this this next year, this is our twenty ninth year of ministry. Our next year is our thirtieth year of ministry. And I'm actually like in my last ten years.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, think about that as a pastor, like my last fifteen maybe.
Tammy Brown:There's no big announcement here.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Big announcement. The
Tammy Brown:question Or just literally like being real like the reality of our life is Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The question is, who do I want to end my ministry with? And you and I fought long and hard. And I wanna end with people that I know love us, love God, and love the church are with special people. And there's just no replacement for a lifelong spiritual community. Just I just I have to emphasize that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I can't emphasize that enough. This guy is somebody I've hurt in ministry. I've probably 10 times had to go to him. I'm so sorry. I was wrong.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I've sinned against you. Please forgive me. I mean, 10 times, you know, especially when we were younger and I didn't know what I was doing and I was more arrogant. And this guy's loved me, given grace for me. And what's amazing is his life has been changed at this church through this ministry in spite of all my imperfections.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And this guy is, you've heard me say this, who are my ride or die guys? Like who who am I who am I with until the end? And I want to finish my ministry with those people, because I've realized you cannot there's no price that you can put on spiritual communion. So I would say start building that now because what I'm talking about and somebody, oh, I want that. That took thirty years.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's thirty years of my life to develop that.
Tammy Brown:So
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:plug into community, push into community, and it's so important. And a lot of churches have great Bible teaching. They just have no community. You need both. You just need both.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because I don't care how great the teaching is. If you don't have community, the teaching is just like a podcast. It's literally one directional information. Mhmm. And you are the listener.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I'm not saying God doesn't use it. I think God does use it. I think God uses podcasts and God uses sermons, but you need spiritual community to help make sure you got
Tammy Brown:right message. Doesn't replace the real conversation like in this case with Danielle where you're saying who the person is, what are all the dynamics of it, what are the strings attached, what are the nuances, and what are the risks of cutting it off? Like, and what does God say about that? So you just can't you can't replace having real people really speak into our lives in that way. So Danielle, thank you so much for that question.
Tammy Brown:And to everybody listening, I wanna say thank you so much. It is not lost on us that you could be listening to dozens of people, which you might be, but you're including us in that, and we don't take that lightly. Thank you so much. We feel so honored to have a voice in your life. And if this episode and this podcast is helping you, you can help support us by first of all, if any of today's questions, if you know someone who could really use some of that into their lives, share this episode with them.
Tammy Brown:You can follow us and subscribe to the channel. You can help support us so that we can keep the literal lights on in here. So many things. But recommend us. Follow us.
Tammy Brown:Help support us. We're so grateful for all of you guys who trust us. We don't take it lightly. And until next time, we'll see you then.
Celeste Contreras:Thank you for listening. We hope this conversation helped you grow in your faith. If you've enjoyed today's episode, make sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts and subscribe on YouTube so you don't miss what's next. You can also stay connected by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok for behind the scenes clips, highlights, and more ways to engage with the community. We'll see you next time right here on the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown.