Afghanistan and the Fall with Veteran Journalist Kathy Gannon

 In this conversation with Kathy Gannon, a veteran journalist, we take a deep dive into her experience with Afghanistan. We talk about the Mujahedeen Vs. the soviets, the US invasion, the pullout, and her role as a war journalist who has dedicated her life to reporting from some of the most dangerous areas in the world. This is unfiltered, raw, and very real. certain subjects might be sensitive to some people, so please be advised. 

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Abdullah Najjar

What is In The East Wing?

Stories of espionage, war, and politics, with a primary focus on the Middle East. This podcast will bring together individuals who were involved in the region in different capacities and lived long enough to tell their stories. This will be raw, balanced, and undeniably suspenseful. Join Abdullah Najjar, as he takes you through a journey to a different world. A podcast by WKNC 88.1 FM HD-1/HD-2.

Abdullah Najjar 0:00
Welcome to In the East Wing. In today's episode, I'm going to be talking to Kathy Gannon. Kathy is a Canadian journalist who has been covering Afghanistan since the 1980s she is well informed about the country's history, politics and culture. Whilst in Afghanistan, Kathy once survived a fatal attack that led to the killing of her friend, Anya, whom she was very close with the incident, however, did not stop Kathy from keeping her passion alive, for she is still doing what she does best. When talking about her experiences, Kathy speaks with so much empathy and understanding, and it is certainly an honor to have her on the east wing. Thank you for doing this with me, and you are going to be my first conversation on this brand new podcast that I'm launching with wknc. So thank you for joining me.

Kathy Gannon 0:57
Thank you for asking

Abdullah Najjar 0:58
absolutely so you know, I wanted to, I remember the first time I encountered or came across your your profile, I saw a picture of you with with a laptop, and I think, a candle on the side, and it just looked very dark and quite dim. And the minute I saw that picture, I immediately thought about the days I spent in Libya when we suffered with tremendous power outages and power cuts. And you'd always, you know, have candles in the house, and, you know, you hear, I don't know, like shelling factions, shelling one another. You hear bombs dropping. And it's just, I saw that picture, and I was like, gosh, it reminds me of those days. And so I wanted to ask you about the the context of that picture and what, where does it go back to?

Kathy Gannon 1:50
That was 2001 the Taliban were still in power, and the US led coalition had already the the invasion had begun on October 7, and I was the only Western journalist that the Taliban let back into Afghanistan while they were still there and before they were thrown out by the US led coalition. So I went back on october 23 they left Kabul on November 13, of 2001 the Taliban were driven out on November 13, 2001 so I went back on october 23 so I was the only Western journalist there for a couple of weeks. The BBC was allowed back in the last couple of days, but I was the only Westerner there, and this was up at night at the AP house in the basement, and we'd moved down to the basement because our office was office and house where we were on the top floor. Well, there was a lot of bombing, and especially at night, and plus, you weren't allowed. The lights were all turned off. The Taliban had turned off all the power that existed. There wasn't complete power anyway, but they turned off all the power during the evening, thinking that they would somehow make it more difficult for the Americans to bomb their territory, not realizing that they really didn't need lights, but anyway, so they would turn off all the lights and and so all the power would be off. So you had, you couldn't have lights on in your your office, because it would be seen outside. So even candles or we had a generator, and we also had sat phones, which is how we transmitted. So I moved everything down into the basement, and plus also the bombing was quite heavy, and it got closer and closer into the city, because there were military bases in Kabul itself. So the bombing was quite heavy, and the US was using B 50 2b. 50 twos are not particularly accurate aircraft bombing runs, so it's quite random what happened. So we were down in the basement, and we only had the only power we had was this candle, and I had a sat phone, which we use the generator for to to run the sat phone when I filed. So that was me down in the basement. Others that worked with AP, my Afghan colleagues, were there. Amisha was there. We had our other staff were there. They were so afraid. They were just sort of like hugging the walls, but so that that's where, where I was at the time.

Abdullah Najjar 4:37
And usually when you guys, when you enter or when you exit the basement or your area of operations. What do you carry with you? Is there something that you consistently have within easy reach? Or does that change every now again?

Kathy Gannon 4:54
No, my notebook, maybe. I mean, not really. I mean, you know, we were in the house, we went upstairs to. Up to get things. I slept upstairs. I was filing from downstairs in the basement, but I still slept upstairs. I you know, we went up to the living area. So it wasn't like we were holed up down in the basement. During the day, the bombing was a little further out, so we were, we were upstairs. The light was coming in. We were able to use that. And the bombing was much heavier in the late afternoon and nighttime, at least around Kabul. So, so, so, yeah. So during the day we were, we were mostly upstairs and and then at the toward the end, the last day before the Taliban were driven out of Kabul, the actually, the the Americans did hit the house right behind us with the 2000 pound bomb, and at that point it was upstairs. Yeah, that was pretty harsh. So I went flying across the room and and the windows were blown in, and the frames, everything, and so we left the building then to go up to the Intercon. And the BBC, by this time, were also in Kabul. So it was like the night before the Taliban actually fled Kabul, and the Americans were aiming for the house behind us, which they hit, but it was a Taliban leader who later was killed. But anyway, he wasn't in the building. He wasn't in the house at the time. But anyway, so we left, but our basement was still intact, and so there were some women and children fleeing in the neighborhood, because, of course, it's terrifying. There's smoke everywhere, and it's people are there, civilians are there. And so we hustled them into the office and put them downstairs in the basement. And our driver, who was really Abdullah, stayed down in the basement, because the basement was still intact. And we went up toward the Intercon somehow, thinking that that might be safer and communication and where we were in Kabul at the time in Wazir aquafan was a very heavy there was a lot of Arab fighters that were in that area. So we knew that that was a heavily targeted area as well. So so we thought, okay, we'll get out of that area anyway. And so we went, moved quickly to the Intercon. There was just one, one band of we went back, got the BBC folks, they jumped in, and we all headed up to the intercom. Took us a while to get there. There were a lot of roadblocks. And, yeah, but we need it. Yeah, no.

Abdullah Najjar 7:42
I mean, one of the things I noticed in the story is that you mentioned a 2000 pound bomb being dropped, and it got me thinking. I mean, wouldn't it wouldn't, wouldn't it have been wiser to go for maybe a precision guided missile or something more, less, less impactful, in a way, since it's, it was a target that that was, since it was one target, right, one Taliban leader or, yeah, I just thought that that might have been an option, or a better option, in a way,

Kathy Gannon 8:16
yeah, I'm not a military person, So, you know, I'm not going to you. I'm assuming that you asked about why you the 2000 Why not something more directed? You froze. You froze there for a moment. I think they at in Afghanistan, certainly using B 50 twos in an urban area is not, I would think, because it is so random, it's not really the type of weapon that you use in an urban setting. I think certainly in Kabul in Afghanistan, the intelligence really was not that great in terms of the US or NATO, because really they hadn't been in Afghanistan during the whole time the Taliban were there, even after 92 when the Mujahideen were in Kabul, yeah, the ones who were backed by the US to fight the former Soviet Union, they were pretty much everybody had pretty much left them alone. They were fighting each other. And then the Taliban came in. So really, the West hadn't been that engaged in Afghanistan, except for wanting Osama bin Laden. But even at that, their level of intelligence abilities in Afghanistan were fairly limited, so I don't know that they would have been able to pinpoint in that great with that great inaccuracy. Anyway, frankly, so I'm not, I'm not really sure that their intelligence was that good. I mean, they fired at OSA, the eastern Afghanistan in 1998 when Clinton was in and they were. Trying to hit base in eastern Afghanistan and host and and where Osama used to frequent, and then Bin Laden used to frequent, and they, you know, they missed them, and they killed some Pakistani militants, actually, and couple of chickens,

Abdullah Najjar 10:21
you know, when you mentioned the Mujahideen, the first thing that came to my mind was this, this one guy that I always encountered when I was a kid back home in Libya. He was he lived in next to my grandma's house. And whenever my family and I would go to our grandma's house, and we would play in the street, out in the streets, back when there weren't any smartphones, you know, or things that would keep us busy in the house. We would always see this guy outside in at night, and he had, I'll never forget this guy. His name is Al Amin. He had a huge beard. And he would always tell us, kids don't play out in the streets at night. And that was the only thing that he would utter, you know, he wouldn't bother us, he wouldn't do anything that was sort of nefarious, but that's the thing that he would always tell us. And when we go back to my grandma's house, he we would tell our aunts and our grandma that this guy talked to us again, and he told us not to play in the streets. And they would tell us that Al Amin is a nice guy, but he went through so much as part of the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. He actually was a fighter back in, you know, during the Soviet Afghan war. And so I, you know, Afghanistan, to me, was always at the back of my mind, and until, you know, I sort of grew up and started learning more about the country. But you miss cannon. You've had, you've been covering Afghanistan since the 80s. So you've witnessed the, I guess, the whole, you know, the war between the Mujahideen and the Soviets, right? I mean, when, how or why did that start? It's just, it's such a interesting.

Kathy Gannon 12:11
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, it started after the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, but it was the height of the Cold War as well. And so really, the Mujahideen became proxies for the United States against the Soviet Union and and they were the staging arena was Pakistan, and at the time it was a military dictator in Pakistan, Zia Ul Haq. And Zia Ul Haq was a very he had just thrown out zulf kar Ali Bhutto, the prime minister who was a progressive and a Liberal leader. And Zia Ul Haq was a very rigid Islamic ideologue, and so he and he's the one that invited a lot of of the sent out the invitation to all the countries, the Muslim countries and Arab countries, to please come and fight against the Soviet Union. But to be clear, the United States was was an equal partner in this and and all of the Afghan leaders and the the non Afghans, many from Arabic speaking countries, were supported in large part by the United States, by the Western countries. Surreptitiously. A lot of the weapons came through Egypt, but a lot of the support the US was a partner with Pakistan in this. This was not certainly Pakistan played a big role. It was a staging arena. But the US was a big partner. Was at the height of the Cold War, they really wanted to go after the the Soviet Union for their invasion of Afghanistan in 79 and Ronald Reagan invited these Mujahideen groups to to Washington at one point, he's the One that that dubbed the freedom fighters he's and there was a real outflowing of refugees into Pakistan, and it was a US university, and I want to say the University of can't remember right now. It's in my but no, I'm

Abdullah Najjar 14:44
saying it's all right, you'll remember it. I

Kathy Gannon 14:47
bet you knew the one. But anyway, American university that set up a program for teaching Afghan refugees English, and it was, and this is where the title of my book comes from, but it was. Um, to teach them English. J is for jihad to fight the communist. K is for Kalashnikov to use in your jihad against the communists. And they would have math questions for them. And it would be if, if you had 10 communists and you killed five communists, how many communists would you have left. So that was used in the refugee camps in northwestern Pakistan, the Afghan refugee camps. So to be clear, the US was very much behind capitalizing on that Islamic fervor to to use it as the the motivation behind fighting the the godless communists, and Ronald Reagan, who was then prime president in in the United States, used that very term, saying, you know, the godless communists and these, these freedom fighters are fighting, you know, to preserve God and country, and so it was very much the use of that in terms of as incentive toward Fighting the former Soviet Union in Afghanistan who invaded to prop up the communist government, the pro pro Moscow government that was, was there. Then there was a lot of talk that, you know, it was because the Soviets went in because they wanted a warm water port, you know, they want to get through to southern Pakistan, blah, blah. So, I mean, how? How the rationale behind that, whether that was their, their their goal, or whether they were just worried they they came in because they didn't want their southern belly to be they wanted an ally in Kabul, against, in, in, in, in a strategic part for them, because, of course, it was the former Soviet Union. So all the Central Asian states were part of the former Soviet Union, until Gorbachev then came up with the change later. And of course, Ronald Reagan took credit for the breakup of the Soviet Union. But so really, Afghanistan, if you if you think about it, was the last real big Cold War battle. So there was a lot of fervor, and they really capitalized on that Islamic fervor to motivate the Mujahideen. And the Mujahideen were in Pakistan, the groups, they were divided into seven groups, and the majority of the money and the weapons went to the most restrictive of the groups. Oh, my God, hekmachart groups, even Amit Shah Massoud. He is, he was, he was not a moderate by any stretch of the imagination. Eunice Hollis, the more moderate groups, the more progressive groups like the kailanis or even mojardi, who Hamid Karzai was associated with, they barely got any money and they barely got any weapons. The real bulk of the weapons and support went to the most religiously restrictive groups. Jeff was very close to the Arabs, the Saudis. He was very, very close with the Saudis. And hekmashar was very, very close with them, obviously, the Haqqanis. Haqqani Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know now people know the word the name, but anyway, so they got all they got all the weapons and the money. And actually jalaladine Haqqani, sirajdin Haqqani, Father was, was very, very close with the United States and during that time and and there certainly was a lot of support for him within the CIA, right at the time when they were funding and sending money into Afghanistan to fight against former Soviet Union. He was, he was very strong. But you have to understand that a lot of these, whether it's it's say off, who was very, very close with with the Saudis and with many in Al Qaeda, say off ran training camps, and then the Mujahideen took power in 1992 the Soviet Union left in in 89 February, 1989 and and 1990 of course, the Berlin Wall fell down, collapsed and and the former Soviet Union disintegrated, and Ronald Reagan took credit for it. And the Mujahideen, I have to tell you, also took credit for it, and they still do so. And then, and then, when the US left in 2021 they. Again, said, See, we defeated the first Super powerdom defeated the second. But anyway, so, and

Abdullah Najjar 20:05
you were there from the 80s, right? You were involved as a war correspondent,

Kathy Gannon 20:11
yes, as a matter of fact, I was, I was in, I was in Afghanistan, from, I mean, often on. But from 80s, I think the first time I went was 86 just before the US gave the Mujahideen Stinger missiles. And it was the stinger missiles that actually turned the war around. Because before the stingers, the Soviet aircraft could come in very low. Because I remember going in with the Mujahideen, and they came in solo that you could actually see the face of the pilot. I mean, when we were in the mountains, but they were coming in so low, or the helicopter gunships could come in solo. Once the Stingers were given to the Mujahideen, they then had to stay above 20,000 I think it was 20,000 or 22,000 feet the aircraft, because any lower in the Stingers could hit them. So that really helped turn the war around, really. And that was in, I think the fall of 86 the Stingers were given to them, which I did, many of whom later sold them. I have to say, some to Iran, some to anyway. And and then the Americans had a buyback program later, anyway. So, so that really turned the war around. In 86 Gorbachev had a year of escorts, what was called a scorched earth policy, where they just pounded the hell out of Afghanistan, the east of Afghanistan, the south of Afghanistan, and refugees came out in large numbers. I remember being in the mountains, and they dropped napalm, a lot of napalm, on the mountains, which is a horrific weapon because, of course, it burns your skin, and it also destroys the everything in its field. But when that didn't work, they then started to negotiate a withdrawal the Soviet Union, and they had these proximity talks, which they held with the Mujahideen, with the Americans and anyway, and in the end, they came up with an agreement to leave and a slow withdrawal that they the last one withdrew. I think, I think it was February 15, 1989 Yeah. And then the pro Moscow government of Najib, he lasted for another three years. Everybody thought he would collapse as soon as the Soviet Union left. But in fact, he lasted for another three years, because Soviet Union left a lot of weapons and whatnot. But anyway, he lasted for another three years, and then the Mujahideen went in in 92 so that would be like hekmashar Masoud emitsha Massoud, Rabbani, sayaf Faheem, all these people who the Americans would later bring back in 2001 all of whom were crooks, I have to say, warlords, right? And and proved themselves to be very corrupt. And, and they started fighting among each other for power from 92 to 96 because and a lot of fighters went home, but these leaders then really entrenched themselves in Kabul. Psy off. And it was really, it was, it was vicious in Kabul from 92 to 96 I mean, upwards of 50,000 people were killed, and many of those same leaders, and they stayed until 96 when the Taliban came and threw them out. But many of those same leaders were then returned to power in 2001 I mean, there's a real symmetry there, because they were in power between 92 and 96 it brought in the Taliban. You got rid of the Taliban, who were all former Mujahideen anyway, who were all former Mujahideen anyway, and they, they threw the and then you got rid of the Taliban, and you brought back the same people who were there between 92 and 96 and they were getting thrown out in 2021 by the time. I mean, it's like history teaches you nothing. You know, it's, it's, you saw how they behaved when they were last in power. You saw the very same people, the corruption, the lawlessness. I mean, there was a lot of fighting as well, you know, with different groups and, and it was vicious and, and, yes, of course, the Taliban Osama bin Laden was there, but they did not bring Osama bin Laden to Afghanistan. That was the Mujahideen, the ones who were there between 92 and 96 and and the one who actually went to Sudan to to to invite Osama bin Laden to Afghanistan. And was a member of psyops group now, say off was brought back to power in 2020, in 2001 by the the Americans, to be clear, um and Haji Kadir, again, all these names and that that nobody would know. But anyway, he also he Haji Kadir, who would later be a minister in the US backed government post Taliban, post 2001 Haji Kadir, he actually gave a speech at a luncheon welcoming Osama bin Laden to Afghanistan in May 1996 so it I just I mentioned all of this because, and that's not to to that's not to downplay the the alliances that bin Laden developed with the Taliban, but those alliances were first and strongest with the Mujahideen, who were in power between 92 and 96 I have had a camps at Fermat, or had the camps at the Ruta, at the border, at Torkham. Hollis, who was was seen as a US backed ally in 2001 including Haji Kadir. They they had al Qaeda training camps in farmada, they certainly protected a lot of them, even post 2001 so I just mention all of this, which is very confusing for people, but to say that it is not as black and white, and the good Guys are not always so good, and the bad guys are not all completely bad and and unfortunately, foreign intervention into Afghanistan is never about Afghans. It's always about the requirements and needs of the foreign invaders. So in 2001 when the Taliban were thrown out and all these people were returned to power, the the faheems, emit shamasu was killed in the the bombing two days before, by by al Qaeda operatives who who blew up Emma shamasud On September the ninth to two days before the 911 attacks, strangely and nobody has followed up. They were given chance to go to Massoud by sayof, who Abdul razo sayaf, who was an ally of massouds, but who was also very close with the Arabs, and who was very powerful in The US, backed government post 2001 so I think it's, it's it's not knowing history, and not knowing the histories of of the people that you're allied with is very dangerous, and unfortunately, when The US led invasion occurred in Afghanistan in 2001 people like,

Kathy Gannon 28:29
let's say that we're doing the negotiating and and they they were. They knew who, who who these people were. They, they, they knew who was SIOP, they knew who was Faheem. They knew and they said, No, we've, we've talked to them, and they've, we've told them that you're either with us or you're against us. So, so, so it was very intentional in terms of of putting these people back in power, because they didn't know anybody else, because the US had and and NATO had been away from Afghanistan, had not been involved in Afghanistan, so they just didn't, didn't know, or didn't have alternatives, right to these former Mujahideen who had been such a problem. Now, I know you, you, you don't edit it, but I need, I need a moment. I need a moment to what's his name. Zal, okay,

Abdullah Najjar 29:39
you got it. You got it. I'm impressed with your memory, by the way. It's just, I was like, this is such a, like, a solid breakdown.

Kathy Gannon 29:49
Are you kidding me? This is so, so it was so. It was Saul, who was there in 2001 who was a special representative for the UN now, Saul knew if. Single one of those people, yeah, and I remember saying to saw me, hola Saad, what are you doing? Sayof Fahim, these look at what they did to call or before, as a matter of fact, in 2002 there was a big meeting, a loya jirga, and it was the women who stood up and said, What are all these warlords doing here, these Mujahideen leaders? What are they doing here? Look outside. They destroyed this city. Why are they here? Those same people? One of them was zombie. Khalizad at the time, suggested she be sent away as an ambassador somewhere, so she couldn't be be speaking out. But of course, he didn't want anything to happen to her. But he said maybe she should be, be, be appointed somewhere as an ambassador, and instead of doing anything with these warriors who had been such a problem. They put them in the front seat of this, this big gathering. And they, they, they made them even more powerful. I mean, the Americans sent in bucket loads of money in suitcases in the first days. You know, all the the American CIA leaders, they brought in bucket loads of money, and so it also contributed to the level of corruption, of course, when you're just handing over money to ensure that people do with what you want them to do. So I I'm just saying that history should have taught us something, but because, as I said, born invaders of Afghanistan rarely, never, never, mind, rarely, never, I think, and this is just in my opinion, I have have. It's never about Afghans or Afghanistan or these invaders. It's about whatever their their needs are, or or would and, and I even say that's fine, but to to behave in a way that doesn't even at least give something back to them and and, and imposes upon them the same people who had been problematic earlier, and and to do nothing to stop them from behaving the same again. And then you're surprised 20 years later that it's back as big of a mess as it was back in 96 when the Taliban came the first time, and the Taliban are coming back. One of the reasons the Taliban were able to overrun so many bases so quickly, and it's because people weren't invested in the government. Afghans weren't invested in a government that was so corrupt. I mean, it was just so corrupt. So you're, you're thinking, Well, do I, you know, do I risk my life? Or, do I, you know, or, or do I take the money and, you know, they were paying off some soldiers and then the soldiers just left the bases and or, or do I stay and fight? Well, people weren't invested because the government in Afghanistan at the time was so corrupt. And I'm not saying that some things didn't happen over those 20 years. Of course, you know, kids did go to school, but, but it wasn't solidified, because you didn't hold anybody accountable for anything. You didn't impose. You didn't create jobs or or a manufacturing industry or a base that gave people an investment in their country, you know. So, yeah. Anyway, I'm rambling now.

Abdullah Najjar 33:53
No, this is, this is really fascinating, the way you just described. Well, first off again, I want to say that I'm very impressed with the way your memory works and the names that you just shared in the description of the events that have unfolded over the years, this is really impressive. I think one thing, I've forgotten a lot, but you've remembered enough, I would say. But you know, one thing I just noticed from the last well, a few things I'd love to pick to explore with you, but one thing in particular was the, I guess, the lack of trust in the government, and maybe I would add to that, the lack of understanding by the foreign the you know, whether it be The US or NATO, lack of understanding of cultural sensitivities, right? Or not knowing what the society wants, or not understanding what they demand, not caring.

Kathy Gannon 34:47
I mean, you know, it wasn't rocket science to try to understand you have to care. You know, you have to. You come in and you open up places in Kabul where you serve alcohol, and it's, you know. We've, we've liberated the Afghan Well, Afghanistan is a rural country, that's it's mostly agriculture. Kabul is not Afghanistan. I mean, you have to, you have to have a desire to know a place, to understand a place, to to know the people, to to to be able to respect who they are. Now, imposing your way isn't necessarily respect, you know, I mean it, that's not but it wasn't hard to learn, to try to understand, to to want to understand, so that you can work with Afghans to find a way forward that works for them. But that wasn't never the intention. So it's not the Gee, they just didn't know the cultural ways. And so, you know, they tried, but, but no, that wasn't the intention to understand Afghanistan and Rumsfeld. His name slipped my mind. Okay,

Abdullah Najjar 36:11
now we're back.

Kathy Gannon 36:14
Yeah, Rumsfeld specifically said we are not here to nation build. And then, of course, that changed, and they were there to nation. Bill, yeah, so, so if you read there's, there's now, and I think it's good that at least now there are things coming out. But I remember in 2001 in December, 2001 and I said this to Saul, and I said this to a friend of mine, after they brought back all these warlords. And I said, you watch, in another 15 years, 1015, 20 years, this whole place is going to go to hell in a handbasket, and everybody's going to blame the Afghans, because they're going to say, look at those Afghans. They've been fighting for years. We don't understand all their conflicts, their their tribal it's all the it's all their fault, and they're going to blame them. And really the US debt coalition, NATO and went in for their own reasons, understandable. Had been been an attack. They had to be a response. So they felt they had to respond. But when you returned the same people who had destroyed the country in the first place and knowing how and why they did it. And then you return them and say, We're not here to nation build. You've clearly have no interest in Afghanistan, right? So whether you don't understand their cultural ways, sure, but you have no interest in Afghanistan, that, I think has to be also said, there wasn't really an interest in Afghanistan or Afghans. Yeah, it's my, my opinion, the hot take.

Abdullah Najjar 37:53
But you know, what's interesting today is that you rarely, you know, with any of the the media outlets that people are constantly exposed to. You rarely find news of what's unfolding in Afghanistan or what's happening domestically in, I don't know, in Kabul or Kandahar or these other areas. And it seems like you're or they're they're trying to maybe shift the focus away from, you know, the botched withdrawal and the the failure in Afghanistan, and try to focus on other things. It's like, forget about it for now, and we'll deal with it once the situation becomes worse. That's how I see it. But I don't know if that's something you know, you have something to say about,

Kathy Gannon 38:35
yeah, well, I mean, the world is, is it's a busy place right now, you know, I mean, and so I don't know that there's a calculated here. Let's manipulate what comes out. I mean, you know, news outlets are overwhelmed with with with the the Middle East, with what's going on in Gaza, with Ukraine, so Afghanistan again, and I'm repeating myself, the invasion was never about Afghans or Afghanistan. So post invasion, okay, it was a botched departure, but really it was 2500 soldiers the way they went, a mess. But the fact that so many Afghans were desperate to leave, it didn't just happen in 2021 that so many Afghans were desperate to leave. And if anybody was ever paying attention to Afghans, you could have understood that this might be a problem in 2019 two years before the Taliban made any move toward Kabul, Pakistan, a country that most Afghans don't even like, opened up its consulate in Jalalabad to give visas. There was a stampede of Afghans to get visas to get out. The country, wow. And many people died in that stampede. Now that was Afghans desperate to get out to a country they don't even like. So on. On August 16, on August 15, the Taliban came immediately. The social media among young kids was on fire, with people saying, Oh, get to the airport, and the Americans will take you. It's get to America. We could get to America. And so everybody went, and then, plus all the foreigners were leaving, you know, in a panic, even though, really the US you spoke with the Taliban for two years in Doha, you were negotiating with them for two years, and you had an agreement with them and everything, okay, that was under Trump. Biden comes along. You're going through the same they come into power, and the same people who were in Kabul were the people you were talking to in Doha. So what? Why weren't you talking to them, you know, before, when they when they were coming in, why weren't you? You know, more prepared. There's a it's far more complicated than those horrible scenes, which were horrible, and that day it was, and I did a piece for a sub stack on this three years ago, because I interviewed the families of some of the kids that were killed, like the young lad who fell out of the wheel well when he grabbed onto the wheel well. He was a young dentist. He was trying to get to America. His father is sure to pay because his father had spent a fortune to a fortune by his standards, to get him married, and he didn't tell anybody. And his father was sure that he was just so desperate to get to America to make money to send it back. Another young lad, he was a soccer player. He was afraid the Taliban would let him play soccer. So he thought, I'll go to America. I'm going to play soccer. He loved, you know, and he got crushed under the wheels, but he was so afraid of the Afghans that instead of staying there and shutting down the engines and sending in people to disperse them, they took off in that aircraft. I still don't understand why, but I don't know all the details behind it so but, but when you had all these people hanging on to the aircraft, why did you take off? Why didn't you just shut your engines down? The place was, you know, you had soldiers there. You had your people there disperse the crowd. They were just a bunch of Afghan none of them had weapons. You know, they weren't there with with weapons. They were there just to go to America, but, but they were so afraid, they just took off, I mean, and there was nothing on that aircraft. There was no one on that aircraft. It was supplies. It wasn't, you know, anyway, I mean, and that's a question I still I don't understand, and but I do think that that there wasn't a lot of trust between the US and NATO and their Afghan allies in Afghanistan over those 20 years. I there was a report done in 2011 and it was the US Army, a psychologist did this study of Afghan soldiers and American soldiers. Okay, this is 2011 10 years before, yeah, and it's a very interesting study, because it says the American soldiers, they didn't trust their Afghan the Afghan soldiers that they worked with, they said, Oh, they're Taliban by night, they were so with us. By day they go back to their is, they're they're this, they're that. It was really very insulting, equally insulting from the Afghan side toward their American and NATO partners, saying that, you know, they, they, we got substandard equipment. Our our guns are always the not working properly. They don't trust us, and really they're so rude, and they do this, and, you know, they they won't drink anything in the market. They have to have their own water with them. They think, oh, you know, they're so,

Abdullah Najjar 44:18
yeah, no, it's just that was in 2011

Kathy Gannon 44:23
that's 2011 and where did it change we, you know, did anybody say, wow, you know, we really have to do something. Yeah, no. Instead, they just took the Americans off the there were no Americans when there was live fire, when they were doing their practice at the practicing ranges the Afghan soldiers, the Afghan army, the Americans, weren't allowed there if there was live fire, really, oh,

Abdullah Najjar 44:50
my God, you know that reminds me of of one of the one of my good friends, who was in an Army Ranger who was deployed to Afghanistan. I think twice, he told me something similar about this, this idea of of perhaps unintentional or maybe even intentional segregation, where the Afghan army would probably not be having lunch with, you know, the US military, so if they're sharing a meal, if they're having lunch, they wouldn't share a meal together. It felt like there was some, some level of separation between the US military personnel and the Afghan this comes from his experience as an Army Ranger, but he told me that he really wanted to establish a connection and sort of build a relationship, right? And nowadays, you know now that he's, he's, he left the military. You know that he's in the States, it weighs heavily on him, this idea of leaving some of those people that he connected with behind, and those, those Afghan military personnel who were promised to be evacuated or promised to leave the US, but now I've been left to leave Afghanistan. But now I've been left behind. It's just a such, a very, very rare situation to deal with.

Kathy Gannon 46:08
Yeah, but, you know, it's a country of 40 million people, um, you had 20 years to try to help, you know, do things. It's a country. What are you going to do? Evacuate everybody. You know, it's like that whole evacuate, yes, the military people, fair enough. I say the military people certainly evacuating all the CIA. There was CIA trained troops for unit, oh 102, the host protection force, because they were very and they had a tough job, I'm not saying, but they were very brutal. So there was a lot of and, and there's been stories done and real good investigative pieces showing the brutality of their behavior. These Afghan CIA trained forces. So a lot of a lot of anger among Afghans toward the maman talba, I understand absolutely you, and I understand the fear that those who were with the US Army fighting or in the battlefield their need to leave, but there was no sense that. And I'm not talking about military, and I understand, and you know, a person who, you know, had an afghan that they got close to inside the the military, you know, there's a bond, and I'm sure it's it's sad for them to wonder at their fate. But really, everybody that that, after 2001 the world, just evacuated everybody out of that country, and everybody who could left that said, I mean, you could, could have been sweeping the garden, or a gardener for somebody who was a foreigner and you were taken out. What? What does that tell you? What you think of Afghanistan? Well, we better get everybody out. I mean, it's a country of four, it's a country. It's a beautiful country. And okay, the Taliban rulers are regressive. They're, they're, they're, they're and more hardline today than they were and when they first came back in in 2021 but, but taking out everybody who you know, maybe could have fought harder for for rights for people, but you took out that sort of the the teachers, the doctors, the and I, of course, you know, I mean, who am I to say? Well, you should stay, but it's a beautiful country, you know. So, so, okay, you're going to come out because I knew you. Well, I better get you out of there. Thank God you're in America. What does that say about Afghanistan? Well, thank God you're not in that. You know, hellhole. It is not a hellhole. It is a beautiful country, and Afghans are smart. Afghans can figure out how to, how to make things better. And I'm not saying that it isn't in a in a difficult place now, and there's some real problems, and it's and, and the Taliban are horrible in not allowing girls to go to school, and and it's wrong, and they should be. They there, and the vast majority of Afghans want their girls to go to school, including within the Taliban movement, who want their girls to go to school, but the leadership and how the leadership is set up, but the world abandons Afghanistan now and and all the embassies are closed. No, no, it's not true. That's not true. I lie the. Embassies. There's a lot of embassies that are open. The Japanese Embassy. There's something like 22 embassies that are open. Wow. The UN is still there. The World Bank sends people in the IMF, not the IMF, sorry, different UN organizations are represented there, which is good. The desire, in my mind, this is just again, in my the desire should be to get into Afghanistan and help Afghans find a way to make their country better, not shaming and beating people over the head and and you're horrible, and you're this and you're that, and I absolutely speak out in favor of girls education. There are, there are Afghans inside Afghanistan who are speaking out in favor of girls education. There are women, young girls, that are demonstrating in favor of girls education. There are kids going to school in Afghanistan past grade six because Afghans are working to get them to school. There are people I know in Afghanistan who are running schools for girls. Does Is it right that they should have to do it in secret? Is it right that the Taliban bans girls from education? Absolutely not wrong. But, but standing outside and beating them over the head. Does that make Afghanistan better, or Afghans better? Does it help them, or does it make you feel better? Like you know, this is, you know, we have to beat them into submission. Well, this is the, seems to be the, the way, the only, the only solution we have for anything is beat them into submission. Beat the Afghans into submission. Beat somebody else into submission. Beat the Ukrainians into submission. That seems to be our go to is, well, we just have to be, you know, we'll show them they can't do this. What about getting into the country, going back, I don't say recognizing the Taliban, but there are a mountain of ways that you can get back into Afghanistan. Every single embassy could open in Afghanistan, putting people in there who can, who can help. Afghans know that they're not alone. Afghans will find their own solution. They're smart people, but, but, and I know that the world will come down on me and say, Well, you know, how can you say that we should go back when the Taliban are there? The Taliban aren't going anywhere.

Abdullah Najjar 52:34
Oh yeah, they're not.

Kathy Gannon 52:37
And and the and the opposition, the alternative is no better because they they those people who say they said that, you know they, they are. They are potential war criminals, the the ones who were in power before, some of them are potential war criminals. And so if they're not so you want to put them back for the Afghans. Is that the answer? Maybe the answer lies with Afghans. Maybe they are smart enough, capable enough, competent enough, let them figure it out and and unless you want to evacuate 40 million people, um, and then you have to figure out a way to help Afghans help themselves, because we don't have the answer. The West does not have the answer. The East does not have the answer. And you spent 20 years there, and let's be honest, what did we accomplish? You came in throwing out the Taliban in 2001 you left with the Taliban coming back in in 2021 so you got involved in a civil war. You lost. Now, if you really want to help the Afghans, it seems to me, you have to figure out with the Afghans, the Afghans, they they're the answer. The West has, has its concerns. I don't say they don't. Pakistan does. There are militant groups there. The Al Qaeda is regrouping. The Islamic stating, Corazon is there. The Taliban are fighting them. The Americans are working with the Taliban. Oh, are they? Well, I mean, I mean, I don't know for sure, yeah, no, of course, they are, you know, I mean, they, because they and they were, and they were prior to 2021, in terms of going after Islamic State in the horizon, because the Taliban are opposed to them as well in Kunar, the America. Couldn't do anything. They knew they needed to have the Taliban to go into Kunar because they had no ability. So on that you're aligned with the Taliban, on that you agree is k, you don't want them. So, okay, the but you're, you're, there's allegiances among the Taliban, with al Qaeda folks. That goes back to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Those links. Okay, what happens with those the TTP, the teraki Taliban, Pakistan, causing havoc in Pakistan on the border areas. The military has lost hundreds of soldiers on the border with attacks coming across the border from Afghanistan by the TTP. There are members of the IMU, the Islamic movement of Uzbekistan there. There's memory. There's members from the Uyghur, the Turkistan group, and a lot of other alphabets that I don't, I can't remember them all, but, but, but it's an Alphabet City in there, military group. So, so it, there is a real need to try to help Afghanistan and Afghans, because Afghanistan is more than the Taliban and it's, it's, it's, and you have to isolating them didn't work in the past, we saw that they were isolated when They were there between 2019 96 and 2001 and what happened? It became a, you know, a haven for anybody who, who said they were, you know, had Islamic credentials. They ended up in in Afghanistan. So it didn't help to isolate them. Then between 1996 and 2001 that led to 911 Osama bin Laden was there, right? Taliban didn't, weren't part of it. There were no Afghans involved in 911 they were all Saudis and and there was planning in Germany. I didn't see an invasion of Germany. But anyway, and no, I'm just kidding. Oh, you know, so, so I'm just, I'm just saying, you know, so, so realistically, everybody benefits if, if, if we work to try to figure out a way to help Afghans improve their country, and it's not going to happen by making demands do this or else. Because what leverage does anybody have? You know, none. Or Okay, well, stop the assistance. Okay, that makes it worse for Afghans, you know. And poor Afghans become poor. And is that, is that what people want? So it's like for me, finding a way to work with people, even people you don't agree with, even people you don't like to to make things better. You've got to figure out a way to make Afghanistan work for Afghans. Nobody wants increased migration from Afghanistan. I mean, a lot of the people that were evacuated still don't have aren't settled. They're in between. I mean, really, yeah, so you want to take out more people and do what? But how do you help them make their country work for them? How do you help them and and I don't have the answer, honestly. I really don't, but I do believe strongly the answer is not in isolation. It didn't work between 1996 and 2001 when they were last in power, you saw what happened. 911 happened. I don't say it's mainly because of that, but, but when you're there, when you're in Afghanistan, you get to know people. You get to feel, you get to understand, you get to, you know, understand how this works, understand how that works. And I don't say you know people. One, one former diplomat said to me, well, we can't go back to Afghanistan because, you know, some people will become sympathetic to the Taliban. And it's like, really, really. I mean, the Taliban is, like, they're not a monolith. It's a mix of different, you know. I mean, there are people who want education among there. There are people who maybe they don't agree with you. Maybe they don't see their country run like America, okay? But you know, there are people among the Taliban who want a better life, who genuinely want a better life for their country and their countrymen, and there are those who want for themselves, I don't say, but there are among them. How do you work with them? And there's how do you work with the other 40 million people in the villages, you know, people who have gone through the Soviet invasion and got nothing out of it. Then they went through the the Mujahideen and got nothing out of it. Then they went through the Taliban and got nothing out of it. And then they went through the US led invasion and got nothing out of it. People, Afghans, they want a better life. They're not, you know, and and they're smart. The the the answer is, is, in my mind, again, is to to to be there, to not recognize fine, but to be there and to be in Afghanistan, and to be among people, and to to show them that they're not alone, yeah, and that will give courage to others, to people inside the country, to come together, to perhaps find another way that works. It might not be with what America wants or what Canada wants. I'm Canadian, by the way. So So to be clear,

Abdullah Najjar 1:01:11
clarification purposes,

Kathy Gannon 1:01:16
should be very clear on that, but so it might not be that what, what looks like, what we think, or you think, or America thinks, Well, so, you know, I mean, so what we, we, we make a lot of mistakes in the West and and at some point you have to respect others and and I think, I think Afghans haven't been given the respect that they deserve. I really don't. I don't think any invaders have. I don't think most people do they. I don't think they were trusted. When, when, when. In the last 20 years, the many of the ally, I don't, I don't think it was much about Afghan and I don't, yeah, I, I don't think there's been a lot of respect, yeah,

Abdullah Najjar 1:02:15
you know, you mentioned twice. I think that Afghan people are smart and, you know, they're that they're twice. Oh, yeah, maybe I lost count. Well, you see, your memory is way better than mine. No, all over the place.

Abdullah Najjar 1:02:33
I apologize. No,

Abdullah Najjar 1:02:34
this was I loved it. I mean, the fact that you know you have this, level of admiration is, is, is, in and of itself, admirable. And I think that I've, I've experienced many, many encounters with Afghan folks throughout my studies here in the US. And I think 111, friend of mine, Sameer, who witnessed the fall of Kabul in 2021 I've never met someone as as as patient and as brave and as smart as Samir. And he went through hell, you know, when in trying to escape Afghanistan. Since he was involved with he was with USAID. He worked for USAID, and he went to the American University of Kabul, I believe, or the American University of Afghanistan, right? And so having, I've recorded an episode with him, actually, you know, want to give him another shout out to just, just so people maybe go back and listen to his story. But again, I really think that there are so many of them out there who really want to make a change, who have went through so much suffering, and they really want to give something back to the country, because they'd hate to see their country crumble before their eyes. And so, yeah, it's, it's such a, it's such a that that pushes us to want to really listen and help out and create or facilitate an environment where they can actually create that change because they really want to. And my friend, they

Kathy Gannon 1:04:11
sure the those who left, but it's I'm telling my people who are still there. You know, 40 million people are there, and I do I respect that, but I respect Pakistanis. I respect Americans too. I respect I it's not that, I guess for me, I just see globally how we go with you, the this going into a country and imposing. It's not just Afghanistan, and I'm not saying this right, but I think our arrogance is Western arrogance. This is, and it's and it's Western like somehow we know better and and we'll, you know. We, you know, and in our our sympathy and our pity and our and, and for me, I say let them do it, you know. I don't say abandon them. I say go in and you know, but they don't look like us. I mean, yes, you know the Afghans who left, and so many are really struggling and want so much for their their their homeland, but, but those with beards and Turbans are also Afghans and and Afghans are also people in villages and and, and they're also older people who don't really understand what all's going on, and and, and really don't trust us very much, and with good reason, And and and, and so Afghanistan is very, it's, it's like every country, you know? I mean, I guess, I guess. I'm not really making myself. I'm not being very articulate. Obviously, I do. I do. I do believe that regardless of whether it's Afghanistan or in any country, that we stop thinking that we have answers because we don't and but if we care and we have an interest and we have a desire to to to help Afghans help themselves, you know, not, not dictate. And the truth is, is that what military people were in danger, for sure, I you know, and I understand that everybody who worked with an American or a Canadian or were not in danger, you know, did they want to stay? Of course, not. Who wanted to stay with them? You know, it was a repressive and a lot of people who wanted to leave hadn't even been born. They didn't know what the Taliban rule was like. They just, you know, all the stories and and you know how repressive they were and how they beat them if they didn't have their didn't grow a beard, and they didn't go to the mosque, and if they, you know, couldn't play soccer and couldn't have music and couldn't have all of those things, but, but there were a lot of people who lived and survived and managed and I so I guess what I'm trying to say is that Afghans are like in any country, you know, it's a mix. It's a, it's, it's and, yeah, I don't want to, I don't want to say anything about everybody who left. I don't want to say anything about, you know, I just want to say that for in my mind, unless you're there. And that, to me is, is these meetings in Doha, these meetings. And, you know, I just want to say why, you know, go to Afghanistan, you know, have tea with a whole bunch of people. Talk to them, try to figure things out. Meet people, just be there. It will give people courage to a lot of the reason, when people left and they started to really, they were in a panic, because every foreigner was getting on a plane and getting the hell out of there, right? So it was like a massive fear. So, you know, it was like wildfire, that it was spreading, and then, I mean, they were taking up people who were, like, played football, playing. I mean, there were a lot of people who played football who couldn't get to the airport, you know. Or there are a lot of, you know, you know, girls who who wanted to do things, who couldn't get to the airport. I it just seems to me that, and if I hear people say, Well, you know, we're going to really work to get them out of there, I think really, really get them out of where, you know, I mean, it's, and it's that whole idea of, if it's not the West, it's some shit hole, well, it's not, and I, and I, I'm i. And when I say about Afghanistan, Afghanistan is a beautiful country, I mean that so sincerely. I also think Pakistan is a beautiful country. I mean, I think America is a beautiful country. I'm not but, but America is no better than Afghanistan, than Pakistan and and and. So our arrogance, really, I think, somehow, makes us less able to help, really help people help themselves.

Abdullah Najjar 1:09:56
Yeah,

Kathy Gannon 1:09:58
I'm not being the. Me so I apologize. No, no. I

Abdullah Najjar 1:10:02
mean, I know it's, it's almost, we're nine hours apart, by the way, for anybody listening to this, we're nine hours apart. This is like what in the morning in the US where I'm recording this, and Miss Gannon is in Pakistan. I think, you know, I think your experience, Miss Gannon, is very unique in a sense that you witnessed Afghanistan in the 80s. You've witnessed in the 90s, right, and in the 2000s things, first off, one of the things I want to maybe explore with you a little bit here is the idea of simplicity and how different the culture. Again, I mean Afghanistan. Afghanistan is very diverse, but I think generally speaking, there's some level of simplicity that the Afghans have that you probably wouldn't encounter in the West, whether it be, you know, Canada or us or otherwise, right? I mean, there's something about this, this sort of lifestyle that's very that's maybe more community based, or more collective, in a way that makes it a little bit interesting to sort of transition from a western point of view to, you know, Afghanistan, maybe view of the world.

Kathy Gannon 1:11:28
Yeah. I mean, you know, I come from northern Canada. I come from a very small mining town, like 600 miles north of Toronto, and so very different than than Toronto, for example. But yes, of course, Afghanistan, culturally, it's a tribal based in many ways, I wouldn't say simplistic, like, you know, we're much more complicated, and we have a, you know, a more nuanced understanding. And no, I mean, their opportunities are far less than ours. Yes, the culture is different. It is a tribal community, tribal oriented society, and the loyalties to certain groups and to people in the sense of loyalty, and how they define loyalty can be very specific to their but, but And so, of course, you know in the religion it's it's widespread practice Islam. But then you know, every religion, whether it's Islam or Christianity or Judaism, if you ask me, the thread is pretty much the same throughout all of them and and how each your practice will change. You know, you've got some fundamentalist Christian communities that you know don't allow dancing, don't allow singing. There's, you know, restrictions. You've got beliefs, and same in other religions. So I don't touch the religious angle on anything, because it's practiced differently everywhere, each one practices the religion and in a different way. So I, I don't find it, you know, of course, as a woman, you know, I find restrictions that I wouldn't find in, say, a Canada, in some some places. But at the same time, I see how laws are so flexible in America in terms of women's rights and and I think sometimes when I think how far maybe we think we've progressed in the West, how little we have and, and I feel upset about that. So yes, of course. And I'm not trying to play down the fact that, yes, of course, there are cultural differences and, but, but I guess for me, you know, I don't I, and, yes, it's different. So, so what you know? I mean, I, and it's not that I'm not shallow or anything, but, I mean, you know, but really, I mean, it's like we focus in on, well, you know, it must be horrible being a woman, you know? What do you think? Of course, it's not, you know, I mean and and i Yes, there are restrictions. I figure out. How do I get around them? Can I get or do it? Do I like or dislike? Sure, I have likes and dislikes about about certain things I have likes and dislikes about certain things that I see in America happening and. To or in other parts of the world happening vis a vis women, and how we make, you know, three steps forward, two steps back and and I kind of think the stereotypes that are are so overwhelming, even even, and I so that's why I'm I'm talking in circles, because I don't want to get into stereotypes and I don't want to feed into them, and I but yes, of course the culture is different. And yes, of course they're there. But are they simpler than we are? No, and are they're as complex as we are? And have a political discussion with somebody or their depth of understanding? Are there people who they can they can talk circles around you and talk circles around me into and understanding and philosophizing, and they might be in a village. I mean, I'm not trying to play down that there are differences. Of course there are and cultural differences. Are they simpler than us. Are they? Do they place more emphasis on family? Some people will say, Yes, I think yes, family and tribal connections are very important, more so than in other parts of the world, less so than in other parts of the world. But Afghanistan is not a monolith, and neither is Pakistan, neither is America, but we seem to want to put everything into a nice, neat box, yeah, Canada, and that's the outside of America. Well, you know, they're this and, but boy. I mean, I like them. Oh, my goodness, no, they're good people, good people. But, you know, they're not quite well, they're not quite like us, you know, I mean, there's

Abdullah Najjar 1:16:41
always a but in there,

Kathy Gannon 1:16:44
what are you talking about? You know, at the end? And yes, there are differences. But so what? There are differences, I'm and I can, it's not that I'm so shallow, and it's not that I don't respond to restrictions, and it's not that I'm, I'm unaware of of restrictions on on on women and but also lack of restrictions on some in some areas, it is restrictive you go to another place, and it's not you. We want to define nations. We want to, you know, but, but for example, and this is just an example, and I'm not attacking America, but you have more killings in America, shootings you you during post 911 there were renditions, there was torture. There was a 1000s disappeared for in Afghanistan without telling anybody. They were taken from their fan they were taken and families knew nothing of where they were. Now that does not define America, that and but if it happened in Afghanistan, that would define Afghanistan, you would say, look at that. What kind of a country is that, for God's sakes that they just pick people up and they don't even tell them they really they torture them what kind of people are, but, but it doesn't define America. Well, I want to say the Taliban does not define Afghanistan, these warlords that were put back into power in 2001 they do not define Afghanistan. The person who shot me, he didn't define Afghanistan just as and I guess I resist this desire to characterize a nation, a people, a religion, and maybe I'm just too stupid. I can't, I can't characterize,

Abdullah Najjar 1:18:40
I know, I think, think there's something about the when I first proposed that idea that I wanted to explore, I think I sort of maybe tied it back to my society being somewhat tribal as well Libya and how there are things that I really like about the simplicity, somewhat simple, right? I wouldn't. Again, it's hard to sort of, you know, use, you generalize, right? There are things that might still have simple elements to them, but it's, it's somewhat of an advanced society, you know, they we have things that are do exist in the West, and we have things that do not exist. But there are, you know, there are instances where I feel like that. It's more I'm more comfortable with, with that level of simplicity than the complication that I might may encounter here in the West. And I'll give just this stupid, ridiculous example, when I, when I was in Libya this past year, I just slept on a mattress on the floor. I didn't, I didn't use a bed, you know? And it's, I think for a lot of people here, it's just so difficult to imagine how one would do that, because they've always been, you know, I guess from the minute they're, they were born, they've always been accustomed to sleeping on a bed. But, you know, for me, it's just it wasn't something that I think I may have just, I may have considered it a luxury. Yeah. Right? And so there's that element of simplicity that I still, you know, even though I live here in the West, you know, I'm sort of, sometimes people would characterize me as westernized, but there are some, you know, elements of, you know, where I come from that I like and enjoy, and it's just, yeah, that's the idea,

Kathy Gannon 1:20:16
absolutely and and the thing is, I guess, also for me, what does westernized even mean? I mean, really, I think we, you know, we take for granted that the the the narrative of being westernized is this, what is it? What does it mean to be westernized? Does it mean to be arrogant and to be believing that you're entitled to take from the poorer countries and make them poor because the western countries consumption is so great. Is that? What is Western? Is it rule of law? Well, does rule of law really work for your non allies? Do you hold the same standards for others as for you know, do you? Do you give the same freedoms to others and make the demands of all to behave the same? Is that what it means to be Western? So I think we take for granted because, because, then I would say, you know, I think we have to re I'm, I'm, I'm sort of, at this point in my life, we're thinking that, you know, our narrative, we really have to rethink our narratives, redefine what we see as courage, what we see as bravery, what we see as strength and and I think The West is really, in many ways, being less less brave and less strong. Then, then, then many, many other countries in terms of insisting on rule of law, insisting on on on humanitarian law, insisting that all follow the same rules. So I think that there's one set of behavior that is okay for the West and everyone that is allied to the west, but there's a whole other set for those that are not and, and, and, and it's not, and it's not a positive thing. It's, it's, it's a real I think we have to really examine that, because there's a level of racism, there's a level of that is very deep. Look at when Ukraine, when Russia went into Ukraine, and the refugees that came out of Ukraine and and even some of the coverage was, was, really, was racist, yeah, I mean, but they're civilized, not like Afghanistan and Iraq and, you know, I mean, I was just, I was physically Ill when, I mean, Iraq is the seat of civilization. I just, I just so I'm not, I'm I'm not putting down one I'm just saying I think that it is really important that we be as critical thinking about ourselves, and when we say western values, when we say West I'm I honestly have no idea what that means, and I, and I'm not saying that, as you know, but I honestly have no idea, because you'll say one thing. I could give you an example 10 times over where that's not true, right? You'll say another, I'll give you examples 10 times over where that's not true. So those values, your right as a human being is because you're in America, I the right of somebody else who's in Pakistan. Well, you know, you know, that's all chaotic. That's this as well. You know you shouldn't be doing that. You better not come here, because you'll be like this. I mean, it's racist. So I again, I'm not being very articulate, but I do, I do believe that we have to be far more critical of ourselves or critical thinking, far more critically about what we say so easily in terms of Western values, the Western way of life, the Western is and, and that's not to demean anyone, because I do believe that America, of course, is a great country, as is Canada is a great country, but as is Pakistan and as is Afghanistan and as is Libya. And, you know, so I'm, are there, are there problems, and are there difficulties in each of these nations? Yes, yeah, but it's yeah. I'm again rambling.

Abdullah Najjar 1:25:16
This is no, this is really, it really makes me think more about the the aspect of humility that I noticed with a lot of these people that that travel, who or who have had experiences abroad, contrary to those that maybe did not have the same level of exposure. And here I'm not saying that those that weren't exposed aren't necessarily humble, but you do notice a sort of heightened sense, or heightened? Yeah, so you notice that in the people that have had so many experiences abroad, they're very humble, and when you have conversations with them, it feels like like they haven't like it's as if they haven't had that deep level of experience, whether it be in, I don't know, humanitarian work or war reporting or traveling or getting to know people, it's just, you have conversations with them and they they're just, they're normal. I'm not. And I know it sounds a little bit weird for me to say, but, and it's just, it really, it's just, yeah, it's very strange sometimes.

Kathy Gannon 1:26:25
But they're, they're in their world. And I even say, Okay, that is your world. And you're, you're living within your world. And I, I accept that and but I, I what I don't understand what I, of course, I understand. It's the looking at other people and not being accepting of them, that somehow their differences are make them less. You know, it's like, well, you know, we all share a lot. We're, we're more in common than we're different. Well, we're not, we're different. But that, that that is good, that, you know, those differences are fun, they're interesting. They're, you know, problematic. If you don't understand, it's a lot of work to try to understand in just one country. I mean, in Canada, we're, it's a big country, you know, I mean, and so, you know, look at, look at our indigenous what we did. I mean, I come from northern Canada. I come from a place where, in 1996 was the last residential school where we did horrific things to the indigenous children through the guise of the Catholic Church, with the help, rather not the guys the Catholic Church and the Government of Canada, horrible, horrible things to our indigenous people, taking them from their families, putting them into residential schools that the last one closed in 1996 that might seem a long time ago to you, but for me, I mean, I, and I went to a Catholic school my entire time. I grew up in a small northern mining town. I knew nothing about this, and in my very area that this was going on. So what does that say about Bucha? What does that say about about how we treat our indigenous people, how we treat minorities, how we do so, is that a Western value? Gosh, you know, what does that say about the Catholic Church that did horrific things that were that had been documented to these children? So what does that say about so if you want to go down that road with with Afghans or or Pakistanis, or then go down that road with everybody you know and understand that we really, none of us, have that right to stand up and say, Oh, look at look at you. We have the right to we. We should have the desire to try to want to understand better each other. Not say, be like me, but try to understand better each other and and, and it gets into this whole, you know, but anyway, so, so I just feel that this whole polarization that exists today, particularly in America, and really globally, there's an increasing polarization and, and, and that, to me, only shows how more entrenched were becoming to say, our way, the right way, that this the be like this. This is, you know, this is good. This is bad, this black and white. This is courageous, you know. Look at those going out and beating the hell out of this one. Look at this one. It's going That's courage and, and somebody who says, show some compassion, and maybe we should what's what's the matter with you? What kind of a, you know, weak person are you and, and, and your leaders have to get into big trucks and you. Blow big horns to impress the people. If anything, it's becoming far more polarized and and that sense of strength, and is the ability to be better and stronger than somebody else, and there's somebody's got to be the weaker and loser on again. Maybe it's not like,

Abdullah Najjar 1:30:28
No, this is really got me thinking about a lot of things. I hope you still have some some coffee in your mug, because I don't know if this is gonna not much. No, it's running out.

Abdullah Najjar 1:30:41
It's how long is this going? We can

Abdullah Najjar 1:30:44
keep it going for a couple more minutes, because I sense it with the with the time difference. It can, you know, it's nighttime in Pakistan. What's that? Yeah,

Kathy Gannon 1:30:53
it's not that late in Pakistan. Oh, okay, I'm rambling.

Abdullah Najjar 1:31:00
No, I love this. It's, yeah, no. It's really, I think sometimes when, when I talk to people who have had, I guess, a similar background as yours, then who have been in these very dangerous situations and who have tried to maybe make a difference or highlight people's stories, when I, when I tell them that I admire your bravery, they would tell me, it's the, it's the people who are brave, you know, it's not me that's brave, but it's, it's, it's, it's the people that I've interacted with, or that I've covered, or that I've, you know, listened their stories. It's those people. And it's just got me thinking about this, which ties back to what you're saying about, you know, the concept of bravery. It's sometimes, for me, it's just very difficult to define. I mean, I look at your background and your stories, and the one would be the experience of, you know, the the person that shot you. And I think, you know, people who are listening to this might not be able to see your, your video, but you, you still have, uh, your, your arm is still healing, right? Um,

Kathy Gannon 1:32:10
it's forever like this. It's, I have been used so this this, but I have wonderful physiotherapist and Doctor Who who have made it possible for me to be able to use this mechanism helps me, yeah?

Abdullah Najjar 1:32:22
Because I was going to ask about, you know, the because you you can move your arm and your fingers, I was going to ask if that was something that you know, because it's you can, yeah? Because oftentimes, I would think you might have to, you might want to let it rest, but you can move it, and that's, you know, it's good, yeah? But yeah, you know, I don't know what you think about yourself in terms of the experiences that you've had and this idea of whether you consider yourself brave or not. I mean, what do you where do you stand on this? Like I just, I'd love to, you know, explore that with you.

Kathy Gannon 1:33:02
Where do I stand on No, because I've been terrified at different times. You know? I mean, like anybody, you get scared in a situation. And I'm, I'm a few things. I'm, I find courage in in the people that I do spend time with, and when I'm doing their stories and talking to them and being in the environment, and I find courage from them, because I think, okay, You know, this is and I'm so, so grateful that people open up their hearts to you and and really, in so many situations, honestly, I've done, I'm not sure I would, you know, I want somebody coming in and, you know, and then opening my Door and, and, and, you know, after you've lost a child or lost many, or survived an explosion, or have been away from your family for forever. And I mean, I've, I've been, of course, in Afghanistan, Pakistan, but I was also in South Lebanon in 2006 for the war. Then was in Central Asia, a couple of coups. I was in Iraq, northern Iraq, and I I'm so grateful that that I'm able to I was, I had those opportunities to be there, to to be able to to talk to people, to hear their stories, to be able to to report what was going on, and to try to to help people see and understand, I guess, friend, my friend who. Died in the shooting Anya House, who I adore. We, we did some amazing work in Afghanistan together, and she's just wonderful. But she said she received the courage and journalism award in 2005 and she said not to remember this quote properly, otherwise struck by lightning. She's Yeah, exactly No. She said, I she is not about my me being courageous. I'm not as she said, I report other people's courage. She was a photographer. She said, What I do is I report other people's courage, with my heart and with my my camera, my eyes, something like that. But it's true, and, and, and for me, it is you're, you're telling their stories. It's not about it's not about me, and, oh, it's just, you know, I makes me crazy when I hear reporters. Well, this is just so heartbreaking. And, you know, I feel so sad for who cares? Just tell their story. You know? I mean, you know, I mean that I feel sad Well, so, you know, tough luck. And I mean I just, and I don't mean it that way, like, you know, but I mean it in that it's not about us as a reporter. It's about, it's about letting people hear their story. It's I did this. I'll just tell it real quickly, because I'm rambling again, honored killings and yeah, and I interviewed the brother who killed his sister, a brother who

Abdullah Najjar 1:36:37
killed his sister. Yeah,

Kathy Gannon 1:36:39
and an honor killing. I did a series on on honor killings in Pakistan, and and my editor, who is wonderful, after I've done it, and I, and some people said, well, you know, it's horrific. Of course it's horrific. And nobody's trying to suggest it's not, but, but you you have to try to understand. I mean, that's the only thing we do is reporters. We ask questions, we we ask questions to try to understand, so that the reader or the news consumer can understand better. And so, you know, and the more I talked and he talked about, you know, why he did it, and people were laughing, and because she, you know, was going to marry this one, and all her friend his friends were and he was being taunted, not an excuse, not, of course, and nobody's trying to suggest that it was. But when my editor was going through it, and she says, you know, Kathy, it's funny, of course, horrific, and it's not a suggestion that it's not horrific, but you sort of understand, you know, we all have that sort of what people say well, you know, I mean, it's not completely out of the realm of our, all of our sort of understanding and, and I believe so strongly that helping people understand doesn't make what happen, right? And somehow we've, we've lost this, you know, we, we think that if we're trying to help you understand the Taliban. So you think the Taliban are okay, then so you like the Taliban. So that's what you're saying. That No, I, you know, or, or so you know, whatever, something. But you should, Russia's invasive. So you think Putin's not a bad guy. So you're trying to say that Russia,

Abdullah Najjar 1:38:27
it happens. People say it's,

Kathy Gannon 1:38:30
it's the idea that you understanding is not saying something is right, or, you know, helping people to understand isn't trying to, you know, it's on my job to make you hate Putin. It's not my job to make you love whatever you know my my job is to try my best to help you as a news consuming person, understand that's it you choose to like, not like, that's great do, but my job isn't to make you hate the Taliban and, you know, be outraged. No, my job is to help you understand if you're outraged. Okay, that's Go ahead, but my job is, and that's what we do as reporters, is and we ask questions and we ask when we ask them, we ask them with everybody. And it's like he said, she said, That's stupid, you know. Peter says, Well, you know, so Kathy, if somebody says the earth is flat, you're going to say, you know, so Joe Blow said the earth is flat, you know, with that, you know, that's a lie. You know? If you're going to just, no, of course not. You know, I'm not a stenographer, you know. I mean, we're professionals. But why did that person say the world is flat? What kind of who is this person that you know thinks the world is flat and and you ask the questions from that person, you know. I mean, what makes you say that? What you know? So you understand. Okay, maybe there's a lot of people that think the world's flat. You think they're all idiots. That's fine, but I'm curious, why? Why do you think the world's flat? Why? You know, why are you saying that? And then you give context and you give but that's what we do. We're not, you know, I'm not here to make you, you know, laugh at the guy who thinks the world is flat, or, you know, or, or say, you know, look at $1 said, the world is flat, so, and then move on to the next thing. No, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm supposedly trying to help you people see, well, oh, wow, you know. Or why? Instead, we want to hate somebody right, right away, or we want to believe they're wrong, or we want to believe this is right, this is wrong, this is good, this is bad, this is yeah, and it's increasingly so, I think, which is why the world is increasingly polarized. You know, they're bad, we're good, they're wrong, we're right and right can do anything, no matter how wrong. Right me, it might do it's still on that right category. And in my mind, it's, it's, it's because we're not telling and explaining, trying to understand where we're instead trying, maybe too much, to make you like the right ones and hate the wrong ones or hate like, I

Abdullah Najjar 1:41:26
don't know. Yeah, you know, I was this, this idea of rambling

Kathy Gannon 1:41:29
and Bella, we're wrapping this up soon. I'm telling you. Yeah, we're,

Abdullah Najjar 1:41:33
we've almost hit the two hour mark. So let me just try to wrap things up here with just one idea that I just just thinking about it. When you were talking about understanding curiosity, I always think about these young kids, these want to be suicide bombers, and I think about just really wanting to understand why they want to do this. Why do you believe in wanting to harm innocent lives, and why you want to keep on why do you think that's right? And so it's always, for me, it's about curiosity. It's not it's not approval of these actions. It's just wanting to understand them so that we can properly fix it, fix that problem, and so. And you might have so much to say about this, and I know we're doing almost two hours now,

Kathy Gannon 1:42:30
but no, I, because I've talked to would be suicide box in that and and like anything, there's no, you know one, one size fits all, and you're right. And I mean, and the same reason why I talk to them, you know, and because you want to understand, you want to it doesn't mean that you're agreeing. And you know nothing you want to understand. You want to understand the depth of their feeling. Do they even understand what's going to happen to them? Do they even understand what does it mean, you know, I mean, and it's not just, to be very clear, they're not just, and it's not geared to any run religion, because, as we know, the first suicide bombers were in Sri Lanka. And so, you know, it's not, it's not tied to a religion, you know, which is too often, what is immediately put in there when we talk about a suicide bomber. Yeah, I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of them, but I'm just saying but also trying to understand what their thinking is. And I interviewed this one suicide bomber, but would be, obviously he did. He didn't have advice. I wouldn't have been interviewing, but anyway, and he was just the young kid, and they had gotten him, and he was really upset that they had stopped him, and he was only maybe 14 or something, but he was so brainwashed. And, you know, he'd gone to this school, or religious school, and he'd been so brainwashed his poor thing. And, and he didn't, you know. And he said, No, you don't understand. He said, The Quran says you have to kill Pakistani soldiers. I said, I said, Because Pakistani was only created in 47

Abdullah Najjar 1:44:17
Sure, he is, Oh, my poor kid. He

Kathy Gannon 1:44:20
didn't, you know, he was a child. And, you know, some school or some and this is where I fall, you know, of course, then you then get into following it up into religious leaders. And I'm not saying specific religion, and yes, with suicide. I mean, every religion has its religious leaders who have done horrible things. And, you know, I mean, whether it's the Catholic Church, whether it's Islam, whether it's Judaism, whether it's even Buddhism, any I mean, you know, so I'm not, and I know I do this all the time, because I want to be very clear, our world is so focused on stereo. Types right now, and cannot think beyond the stereotypes. And yes, some within contribute to it, some, but mostly without and and so that's why I'm very specific always, to try to be broader in my my Outlook, rather than focusing, because none of it has to do with religion. Religion issues for power, religion issues for manipulation. It's used and it's used by anybody who can possibly use it.

Abdullah Najjar 1:45:31
Well, that's one way of wrapping up our conversation. Ms Gannon, I think we went really. We went overboard. I should have at least asked you, hey, how long can you do this for you know, and I know you're traveling tomorrow.

Kathy Gannon 1:45:45
No, no, it's fine. It's fine, but oh my god, I've just rambled and I haven't been very articulate.

Abdullah Najjar 1:45:53
That was great. You feel like what I

Abdullah Najjar 1:45:57
feel like, you'd apologize. No,

Abdullah Najjar 1:45:59
no, this is wonderful. I'm glad we did this. And I, you know, I wish you, I wish you speedy recovery, and I hope you'd have a safe trip as you, as you travel tomorrow. And I, again, I really appreciate this.

Kathy Gannon 1:46:16
Yeah, no, I'm everything is good. I'm so fortunate. My battery's almost down, but I just, I mean, I'm so fortunate. And you know, yeah, thank you very much. But no, I'm great.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai