The Attraction to Hardwood Floors

The timelessness of hardwood flooring cannot be understated. It has such a rich tradition in the industry and can be seen in countless homes around the world, impressing trade professionals and homeowners and guests alike. In this episode, we are joined by our friends at Shaw Floors and Mohawk Industries to discuss the appeal of hardwood floors, innovations in the space, and sustainability efforts being taken by these top flooring manufacturers.

What is The ProSource Podcast?

Creating a design concept for a kitchen or remodeling an outdated bathroom requires an understanding of the products and services available to those looking to undertake such a project. The ProSource Podcast breaks down the home remodeling industry and highlights the merchandise and experience that it requires to achieve your vision. Join ProSource Director of Digital Marketing Content Kevin Devine, as he speaks with those who facilitate the ideal project and offer valuable information for how to choose the ideal products and services that transform your ideas into reality.

Hi, I'm Mollie Thompson,
and this is the ProSource podcast.

In each episode, we'll be talking
to industry experts, including trade

professionals, suppliers
and our showroom staff

about a variety of topics
within home and commercial projects.

Enjoy.

If you don't mind Kyle, just telling us
a little bit about what Shaw is.

If someone has no clue
and then also what you do for Shaw.

Yeah.

So Sean is, one of the largest foreign
manufacturers in the world.

starting with,
the company was founded based on carpet.

and then expanded into multiple hard
surface categories.

And so, the industry evolved.

so we are participating in
just about all hard surface

categories,
along with carpet being our core as well.

And so my role within Shaw, I'm
the category director of hardwood

flooring and laminate flooring.

How long have you been with with Shaw?

Almost two and a half years.

Okay. Wow.

Yeah. Yeah, it's.

It's been. It's been a lot of fun.

a lot of changes.

A lot of things have involved
in the industry.

But, you know, I really love the company.

the culture is incredible.

people are great.

That's awesome.

Good to hear.

So today's episode is all about hardwood.

So with more modern designs,

hardwood has stayed near
the top of the flooring option rotation.

Why do you think it has stayed so relevant
or what has kept it so relevant?

I mean,

if you really think about it,
it's the oldest or the second oldest

hard surface flooring option
that's been around next to stone.

I mean, hardwood flooring
started being used in the 1600s.

Right.
So everybody is familiar with hardwood.

it's it's stood the test of time, people.

It's proven people know it.

And if you really think about it
as other product

categories have evolved,
they're leveraging wood looks.

So people are inspired by real hardwood.

Now whether they choose to go with a wood

look alternative
I think depends upon what their,

you know, living conditions are,
what their lifestyles like.

And what their budget is.

But people who know hardwood

and understand the benefits of it
are going to seek out hardwood.

So, I mean, the industry continues
to innovate and change,

but I mean, at the end of the day, we're
still utilizing most of the same species.

Now the technologies with finishes
and textures have evolved,

you know, evolution
into engineered hardwood flooring

and things of that nature
and allowed us to go wider and longer.

but yeah, that that's hopefully
that answers your question there.

But I mean, what is typically

the inspiration of most hard surface
flooring shopping?

Yeah, I feel like people really like that
classic look.

And we you touched on it a little bit,
that it's that look

is replicated
in different kinds of fashions.

Why do you think that going to straight
hardwood would be the better choice?

I know it's probably more expensive
than some other options

that look like hardwood,
but they're not hardwood.

Why would you vouch for maybe spending a
little bit more and getting that hardwood?

So durability, right.

That's that's a big one.

it's it's the real deal.

No one board is the same. Right?

So you're not going to see any repeats.

it's 100% natural.

it's not an image printed on anything.

It is the real deal.

so everything you see, I mean, kind of
tells the story of the tree, right?

You've got mineral streaking in the wood.

What?

You know, that's how the tree absorbs and
transfer moisture throughout the tree.

I mean, it just it's it's natural beauty,
you know, based on scholarly research,

that it is the only hard surface
flooring option out there to.

That shows to get you 100% return on your
investment and add value to your home.

Oh that's awesome.

I didn't
I didn't know that actually. Yeah.

So that's that's a big reason
that, you know,

we really don't talk about it
in the industry as we should.

But I mean, people when,

when they walk into a home and realtors
love this as well,

that the first thing you see
is the flooring, right.

You know, you got your head down the knob
and you walk in and and you see the form.

So if you've got real hardwood,
it really sets the tone

of, you know what that home has to offer.

And it's beautiful in your opinion.

It is very timeless.

We've talked about,
it's also very trendy.

I feel like it never goes out of style.

How does it balance
both sides of being timeless, but

also trendy in current times,
in your opinion?

You know, here's the thing about hardwood.

You could have, you know,

a very rustic species
such as hickory, right, that really blend.

It can it can go more contemporary
depending on how you design your home.

And then it also can fit
very well into a rustic cabin environment.

So there's a lot of versatility there
with multiple wood species.

you have the ability to sand
and refinish.

if you wanted to change the look or
if there's any damage or anything of that

nature, you can you can sand and refinish
it and change the stain color.

You know, technology has evolved
with finishing and then and dimensions.

So with the growth and engineered,
you're able to go

from where the widest you would
typically go with a solid hardwood.

you can go up to, you know, 10 to 12in.

Now, if you have a really large open
floor plan that looks those wide boards

look really good.

And then from a dimensional stability
standpoint,

I mean, the introduction of engineered
really changed the game

because there's climates out there
in the US, you know, in Colorado

and in Nevada
and Utah that aren't conducive

for solid hardwood form
because they're so dry.

So having a, plywood
or an HDF core, really,

that opens up the door for those people
to have real hard wood in their homes.

So that's interesting.

What would you say is like the number one
driving force of hardwood trends?

I know a lot of people have talked

about just getting on Pinterest
and seeing what everyone's really into.

Do you think it's something as simple
as that, or something maybe even greater,

that is pushing some of these trends
that we see in hardwood?

Look, I'm no designer by any means,
but I do follow trends.

I mean, if you look at the trends over
time, it's it's really you went

from this contemporary trend
to where more modern

contemporary
and then, you know, things are evolving.

More people like more natural and rustic,
you know, visuals they like, I call it,

appreciation of depreciation,
repurposing things.

So hardwood goes well with that.

again, the natural visual

I think will always in its history
will carry hardwood.

and we can continue to innovate

with finishes
to kind of adapt to those trends.

You know, typically trends start in Europe
and they and they

move eastward and then come around
and then

come back for California and then move
for in the United States. So,

hardwoods very versatile.

I wouldn't say hardwood floor
necessarily sets the trend,

but it's just one of those products
that can adapt because of your

the can kind of fit into all these trends,
because of the available species.

They provide different visuals

that the trend is more subtle
and neutral than a white oak.

And what you're seeing trending right now
will work well if it's more rustic.

then you've got acacia,
you've got hickory, you've got,

you know, several species out there
that really offer

a lot of variation,
and uniqueness in the home.

Have you seen manufacturing
be impacted by these trends or not?

Yeah, yeah for sure.

I mean, if you look at,
if you look at, you know, ten years ago,

the, the bulk of the,
the wood market was two and a quarter,

three and a quarter
and five inch on the engineered side.

You know, it was
it was somewhat it was relatively new.

It was predominantly solid
hardwood flooring.

and then, you know, the introduction

of engineered really changed the game.

And trends have gone wider and longer.

So where it was two and a quarter, three
and a quarter five,

you know, you started to see six ounce
than seven inch, eight inch

and then wider and wider, and again,
more growth and engineered.

Are you seeing that there's a higher
demand for solid or engineered floors?

Engineered, definitely.

If you look at the market data,
the industry data,

I would say right now
I'm just giving you an approximate number.

The mix between engineered
and solid is about 7030.

Okay. so

and that's an average number,
ballpark number, I should say.

But yeah, 70% engineered, about 30% solid.

Where ten years ago,
that number was much different.

That's very interesting to think about to
just how quick that changes.

Speaking about species,
you've talked about it a little bit.

Is there a certain is there a call
for certain species more than others?

Yes. Right now, and I say that before

white oak is really driving
the market right now.

Nordic visuals, subtle texture, so subtle.

Wire brushed

and just more neutral tones are really
what's what's trending right now.

So we went from,
you know, a couple of years back, it

was, you know, gray,
I mean, it was gray everywhere.

Now it's more of a grays or a beige,

and just lighter,
lighter colors and subtle textures.

I do know where.

Yeah, the gray was everywhere.

Yeah.

And prior to prior to gray
and kind of in tandem

with gray actually was,
you know, heavy distressing.

So heavy hand scrapes
and things of that nature were really

there features like that
were really driving the industry.

And and right now it's just it's all
about lighter colors and subtle textures.

Yeah.

My mom is still on the distressing trend
she loves.

She can't let that go.

How do you gauge the popularity
of those wood species or finishes?

How do you how can you tell necessarily
what's really driving that?

So we've got to well,
there's multiple ways.

you know, we've got a professional design
team that travels around

and they're in tune with with,
the design industry

and kind of understanding trends
and what's going on.

So they go to a lot of shows.

We we get a lot of feedback from them.

There's a lot of publications out there.

but also to for me,
I go out in the marketplace

and I travel around and I see
what's being displayed in showrooms.

So that'll kind of give you
people are going to show what selling.

so if you,

if you go into a dealer
like a ProSource, for example, and I see

multiple displays with light white oak,

and that's telling me that like white oak
is probably trending for sure.

If I seen the inverse of that

to where I see multiple displays
with a lot of stained hickory.

Okay.

Well then the market's more rustic,
but it's a combination of spending time

in the marketplace and and leveraging
our professional design team

to give us that feedback.

Awesome.

so what excites you most
about hardwood in the home right now?

What, is really peaking your interest?

I mean, people are sustainability
is a big thing right now.

People are really

they want sustainable products
that, you know, are going to, you know,

and I have a reduction in carbon
footprint.

Well, when I think about hardwood and,

you know, a lot of people think of this,
you know, burly lumberjack

going down and cutting down a tree and,
and then it's it's really not sustainable.

But and maybe that was the case
100 years ago.

Right.

Or you know, even sooner than that.

But that's not the case anymore.

We I mean, multiple countries
regulate their

for their forestry management
regulations are very stringent.

You know, when they're going in
and they're harvesting timber,

they're replanting.

so there's a lot of sustainable forestry
going on.

and I think we need to think about that.

We need to talk about that.
I mean, if it's regenerative.

Now, don't get me wrong, it's not like a
grass to where it comes back every year.

But, you know, it may take some depending

on the species, 30 to 100 years
to be able to harvest.

But, I mean, we're still being responsible
about where we harvest.

Yeah.

And then making sure that we're
being good stewards of the land.

and that's important.

So that's exciting to me,
seeing trend shift

in the sustainable species
as the sustainable products

and knowing that hard wood already fits
that bucket hardwood is just, again,

a lot of it's been the same,
but there has been change visually.

There's just so much you can do with it.

and again, nothing beats the real thing.

and the unique visuals, and,

and a lot of the innovation
and staining technologies, a lot of that

and what it's doing to really enhance
the wood visual really excites me.

So you're going to see
and you have seen with us, we've launched

some oil rub finishes,
some reactive stains, and they just look

really, really good
and just add another level of esthetics

to that world and just really brings out
the true beauty in that.

No, I agree, and going
back to the staining part, I feel like

staining is, much more applicable
now with social media.

And you could just hop on YouTube

and look at a tutorial on how to properly
say you're saying something.

So now people are able to repurpose
hardwood in a lot more different ways.

And maybe 50 years ago,
when learning how to do that was more of a

I need to know someone,
to learn how to do that,

you know, and, and you know, if you think

about going back with sustainability
and you just it kind of sparked,

something that came to mind for me
that I didn't mention earlier.

I talked about sustainable forestry.

But again, if you buy a product
and engineered product

with a thick enough veneer face,
you can sand and refinish multiple times.

If you have solid hardware,
you can sand refinish multiple times, so

you're not having to tear up a product
and then take it to a landfill.

But with hardwood,

if you do take it to a landfill, it's
going to decompose over time.

I mean,
it is it's an organic product. Yeah.

So it will decompose
and go back into the Earth.

so that's something else to call out
there from sustainability aspect.

That's awesome.

And I feel like a lot of people
probably don't think about that too.

And that's a big, for bad
first impression,

I think on hardwood
with the sustainability factor,

people just don't realize all those

all those things in place that are
keeping it in a sustainable category.

So thank you for touching on that.

Lastly, what is on the horizon
for hardwood floors and going into

the rest of this year or going into 2025,
do you see any trends changing?

The only trend and it's really
the trend is shifting.

And I've I've heard a lot of buzz about
this in the marketplace more mid browns.

So we're starting to you know
kind of go back.

So it's just it's like a
it's it's a cycle. Yeah.

So we're we went to light
and then now we're starting to see

a little bit more trend in the more
mid browns golden tones.

And coming back around there.

But white oak is again

subtle neutral white oak
that's still driving the marketplace.

What we're trying to do
is we're trying to leverage

other species out there
because I mean, no doubt about it, the

the supply chain is constrained
because everybody loves white cane.

It's used in high end furniture,
it's used in flooring,

and it's used in the whiskey industry
and the bourbon industry.

So that's a that's a big deal there.

And that takes up a lot of the
the raw materials.

So what I try to do is okay,
what are other alternatives out there

that we can produce really good
looking visuals that align with trends.

And you're going to see that with us.

You know, we're launching some products
at the back half of this year

that really want to leverage oil rub
finishes, cleaner grades

and more neutral colors and alternative
species that are more readily available,

kind of along with those trends.

Yeah. That's great.

And you're going to see us continue
to work with reactive stains and different

and patterns and different
finish techniques and textures that are,

going to really kind of
allow us to be in the trend later now.

Yeah,
I, I think White Oak is so easily able to,

like, pair with so many different colors
and decorations in the home.

So I don't know
if that'll be going away soon,

but I have seen what you're
touching on the mid browns coming in.

people just going back to that like
kind of Western look with their homes.

Yeah. rustic maybe a little bit.

Well, thank you so much for your time
today, Kyle.

thank you for speaking on hardwood.

It was great
to get your take on everything. Yeah.

Thank you so much.

We are going to switch

things over to Kelly Oberschlake
from Mohawk Industries.

Kelly,
do you mind giving listeners at home

that might be not super familiar
with Mohawk, What exactly

Mohawk provides
and also your role in the company?

Absolutely.

Thank you so much for having me today.

First off, Mohawk Industries, we are
the world's largest flooring manufacturer.

We, make carpet, hardwood

laminate, LPT, ceramic tile.

We have a large, tile division Dow tile,
which is based in Dallas, Texas.

And the rest of us at Mohawk Corporate
are based just outside of Atlanta.

And my role I am vice president of sales.

I handle our national accounts.

and so I'm lucky to be
with the pro Source group.

Good deal.

well, today we're going to be talking all
about hardwood

floors to start off, I wanted to ask you,
why do you think that hardwood

has stayed near
the top of the flooring option rotation?

previously.

And even with more modern designs,

why do you think, in your opinion,
that it has kept so relevant?

Well, first off, it's timeless.

So, many of our grandparents had hardwood

floors, and,
we grew up on hardwood floors,

so we trust them,
just knowing that it is a durable product.

most of the hardwood products
can be refinished as well.

And so it's a, product that you can keep

in your home for a lifetime, for sure. I,

I feel like especially nowadays, there's
a lot of repurposing hardwood floors.

re sanding them down, re staining
and especially with,

you know, more of a recent impact
with like sustainability.

Two people are looking for ways
to repurpose that old hardwood.

It is known for being timeless
and trendy like you mentioned.

How do you think it specifically balance
both sides of being timeless

but also trendy? When new, trends pop up?

Well, I definitely think, it's timeless.

Just, you know, from the, the natural
looks and feel that you get with it.

but you can definitely make it
more trendy,

by changing colors or different species.

so I would definitely say that
that species piece, can make it trendy,

you know, years ago, Brazilian

cherry was the thing everybody wanted
Brazilian cherry in their home.

that has actually gone out of style
a bit.

now we're looking at wider
planks and European oaks,

much more cleaner
visuals, and lighter muted colors

now for sure.

Definitely.

light like white
oak type of species is is definitely.

And do you think that moving into this
a next year, maybe into 2025,

do you see that

there would be a different kind of trend
from what we're seeing right now?

Well, so we're always chasing trend and

and we're always actually
looking to see what is coming.

we are following, you know, companies
like Pottery Barn and Restoration Hardware

and just to see what their furniture,
we like to work in,

and with the large suppliers, just,

you know, with our ideas
and what we're looking to,

launch in 25 at Mohawk
here we are such a large company.

We're already working on visuals and,

looks for 25 and 26 right now.

but I still believe it is, still lighted,

muted colors, and cleaner visuals.

in 25 as well.

Would you say that the new hardwood trends
that do emerge,

do those particularly impact
manufacturing?

Absolutely.

Because, you know, for instance,
hand scraped was extremely popular

a few years ago.

Those take certain types of machines
to run that product.

so for sure,
and also with the wider, longer products

that are popular now, we've added
lots of machinery to our plants in order

to manufacture wider, longer planks,
that we did not have to have in the past.

So previously,

you know, three inch plank was,
considered somewhat of a wide plank.

Then it went to five,
then it went to seven and nine and so on.

So for sure
we've had to adjust our manufacturing,

to accommodate, new trends
that are emerging.

When you're looking at finishes,
where do you think Greg compares

in popularity
to the typical brown tones to the stock?

If you asked that question two years ago,
I would have said gray is definitely in.

Everybody wants Gray. Yeah.

but right now
the Browns have resurfaced and,

they are actually far more popular
than gray at this present time.

So gray is definitely, had its run
and it's while it's not completely gone,

it's definitely not the color of choice,
that we're seeing right now.

It's more ivory tones and browns.

And just out of curiosity,
why do you think that more goldens

or more browns are taking over the
the White Oaks?

Everything kind of runs its time, right?

So it all goes full circle.

And I think, gosh,
the industry was so gray

for a few years that I think,
we are all over gray.

and, you know, carpet side,
I will say that, gray

carpet
in, the South, especially where we are.

Georgia.

red clay is actually gray
highlights red clay.

So it shows everything.

and brown tends to hide
color a little bit more dirt, etc.. So

that's, that's true.

That's a good point.

Yeah.

how do you gauge the popularity
of a wood species or a finish?

So we are constantly tracking all of that.

yeah.

You know, based on sales,
from all of our divisions.

So we're constantly,
tracking popularity of species and,

like, us, I mentioned earlier,
the large unit furniture companies,

Pottery Barn, Restoration Hardware,
we look to see where their trends

are headed and try to make sure
that we're working, and in team

and in step with, the large manufacturers
in the furniture industry as well,

wood looks that are in other categories
such as laminate, tile, luxury vinyl.

Why would you say that
hardwood is a better choice

than some of those, like,
look alike alternatives?

well, I definitely,
you know, it's the real deal.

So, you know, all of the other products
are trying to look like wood.

but this is the real deal.

It's wood.

And, so we are seeing that there's,
thicker face veneers that people are,

you know, they prefer to be able to see
that thick face, on a wood product,

so that they know
they are really paying for wood.

They're getting wood. It's
not a thin paper layer.

and so, like I said, it's the real deal.

If somebody is maybe concerned
about the sustainability

behind hardwood flooring,
maybe someone from the outside

looking at is wondering about the trees
and just the sustainability behind it all.

Do you have any, insights, I guess, on

sustainability in hardwood
flooring right now?

Absolutely.

So Beau Hawk, we fund, several programs,
where we actually plant trees

for every tree that we, our that is taken

down in order to, manufacture wood.

We actually invest heavily
in sustainability programs

to make sure that we are replanting trees
back into the environment.

Awesome.

What excites you most personally
about hardwood in the home?

I just love it because like I said earlier
and I've used

we both have used the term a few times
in this, interview, but it's timeless.

and it is extremely durable.

And, you know,
I like knowing that I have the real deal.

This might sound silly,
but you know, it's like a purse.

you know, if if you have the real deal
and you know what?

Maybe somebody else can see it
and it doesn't look like it, but,

you know, you have the real one.

There's just something to be said
for that.

So, you know, I, I like to,

know that it is a real product
that's on the floor

and there's no question and no two boards
look alike because it is, natural.

So you're not going to have to worry
about repeats, etc..

because it is the real deal.

Yeah. Especially the the durability too.

I feel like if you're going to spend
the money, you might as well get the best

product right.

So what do you think is on the horizon
for hardwood floors next?

I know we're kind of going through
a transition period right now from grays

to more of the like browns
like you mentioned.

What could you see
happening in 2025 or 2026,

maybe past this trend
that's going on right now?

Gosh, you never know. What's a rapidly.

But I will say that I definitely think
wider and longer, will continue to grow.

And so stay tuned

because, definitely some exciting
things are on the horizon for sure.

That's awesome.

Yes, we will be launching,
several new products,

this year
at our edge convention in December.

And so we will have a look into the future
there for sure.

Awesome.

A lot of exciting things
happening with Mohawk.

Yes for sure.

Well,
thank you so much, Molly, for having me.

I of course much.

No problem.

Thank you so much for your time
and thank you for joining us today.

Absolutely. Have a great day.

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