Tom and Paul read meditations

What is Tom and Paul read meditations?

A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.

Speaker: Boom, that boom is me starting
the recording for this podcast.

Is that's what I mean.

Hey Paul.

Speaker 2: Hey Tom.

Good morning.

Speaker: Good morning.

How you doing?

Speaker 2: Great.

Excited to, to steadfastly continue on
our journey through, through Marcus here.

Speaker: Yeah, me too.

Oh.

You know what?

I'm just flipping ahead
in my book a little bit.

We are actually quite close to finally
getting the end of book eight here.

Nice.

Conceivably, boy, I don't wanna
swear we're gonna do it today,

but conceivably even today.

Speaker 3: Nice.

Nice.

Speaker: If not all, certainly this
time, which is, I feel like that's.

We're this thing where each book we're
like asymptotically approaching the end of

Speaker 2: That's right.

That's right.

It we are making steps toward
it, but in terms of time, we

are no closer to finishing them.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Our rate of, yeah, each,

Speaker: each, like each additional
50% of the book we're reading takes

just as long as the prior 50% did.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

So it's, yeah.

Yeah.

I have a funny story or potentially funny.

You, so the podcast listeners will
not see this, but behind me there's a

bookshelf and it is now full of books
because I'm a learned man and I need

people to see that on my video calls

Speaker 3: or part of

Speaker 2: background.

Yeah.

Part of my background.

And so I had this problem.

I was like, okay.

So I just, we just moved around the world.

We were in Hawaii, we're in Amsterdam.

Like we didn't keep any books.

So I needed shelf fillers.

Speaker 4: Fake books.

Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

So the issue with, with with that is,
it's actually it's hard to find these

shelf or they can be pretty expensive.

Like buying individual books
is gonna cost a fortune.

I need measuring feet, I need
at least 10 feet worth of books.

Speaker: It's got three,
three solid shelves going back

Speaker 2: there.

Yeah.

So I need 10 feet of books and
I need them to look nice, right?

Ideally I want feel learned,
so I need them to have nice

covers and mostly hard covers.

So they're

Speaker 4: quite books.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Yeah.

And then I was like raised on this kind
of, with this reverence for books, right?

I was raised with this
idea that books are sacred.

And so just the whole concept of
shelf fillers feels very dirty to me.

So what I ended up doing is I did
end up going to this bargain sale.

There was this like bargain
sale from a library.

They were selling books
for a dollar a piece.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Yeah.

And I went

Speaker 2: past weekend and I showed up.

And it was it was full of mostly 60 plus
and folks, or maybe 70 plus, I don't know.

Folks were like, definitely
on the older side.

And and they were like really
looking for their next read.

People were there for a long time and
then they would walk out with one book.

Yeah.

Speaker 3: And

Speaker 2: they pay their $1 for
that book and happily go home and

probably devour it immediately.

And there I am.

I'm, I brought five bags with me.

Speaker: Shoveling things into
a shopping cart or whatever.

Yeah, probably.

Speaker 2: And it was so
difficult because there were like.

Nice older men and women
at every shelf, like

Speaker: legitimately considering
wanting to look at it.

The shelf into

Speaker 2: your

Speaker: bag.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

So initially I was like, okay, my
strategy is going to be that I'm

just like this voracious reader and
I'm gonna examine every book, but

ultimately just take a lot of 'em, lemme

Speaker: look at every
book individually on

Speaker 2: this.

Yeah.

Just so I would do this pan.

That's bad.

I would do this pantomime of examining
it, like opening it a little bit like, oh,

this is good, and putting it in my bag.

Nice.

But after half an hour of that,
I was like, okay I can't do this.

This is like too much.

Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

And so

Speaker 2: I just, I went, I
started doing the shoveling.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Like the
shoveling was awkward too.

'cause there would be
someone looking at the shelf.

And I would be like, hi.

Speaker 4: Excuse

Speaker 2: me, unless there's
anything in particular you really

want here, I'm gonna take this whole
shelf, and I would get these looks.

Wow.

I'd be at the I mostly rated
the philosophy section.

Okay.

And so yeah, I would just,
I took I basically cleared

out their philosophy section.

And and got a lot of strange looks.

And in the checkout they were
like, what are you gonna do?

Or are like, whatcha are you
gonna do with these in your

Speaker: own library?

Yeah,

Speaker 2: Yeah.

And I came clean that it was it was shelf
filler and I don't know, I felt bad.

I felt like I was, being
judged along the way.

But it is what it's, yeah, one of
those books is actually meditations,

Speaker: okay.

Nice.

It lives

Speaker 2: on, yeah.

Speaker: Great.

We can, I, I wonder if it's
a different translation.

We could it's, we can double check it in
moments of uncertainty about translation.

That

Speaker 2: would be interesting.

Yeah.

Speaker: Anyway, if there's an opportunity
where we see something that's really bugs

us, we could see if there's a different
word for it in a different place.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

I'll pull that out next time.

Not to detract from
this episode, but Yeah,

Speaker: sure.

Nice.

Yeah, that, that is funny.

I'm realizing I actually just donated
quite a few books from my collection,

so of course if you had just talked to
me, I've moving in here with Aparna, we

have limited bookshelf space, so we both.

Way too many books than we have space for.

So we've been very carefully selecting,
but I have a huge number of books

that you could have just had for free.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Shoot.

I should have thought about the other
the runner up option for solving

this problem of mine was to raid
these little neighborhood libraries,

Speaker: the little free libraries.

Speaker 2: And I was like
considering that, just like driving,

they're all on Google Maps, so
you can know where they are.

You drive up.

You put your hazard lights on
and you just take everyone's, and

that was obviously even dirty.

Speaker: was a little unethical.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: So I didn't do that.

But yeah it's a tough problem.

Speaker: Yeah.

The fact that you, whatever you
paid the library for these books.

Yeah.

They might not be.

Read as carefully as some
of the other ones that were

purchased by individual buyers.

But you're supporting
a library by doing it.

I think what you did was a
pretty good solution Yeah.

In terms of the moral of this.

But it is that is a funny,

Speaker 2: yeah.

It's unfortunate because I've
robbed all these good people of.

Leviathan by Hobbes.

Speaker: Okay.

Those books will still exist.

If they really want to go find those
books, they can find another copy.

Speaker 2: Unjust Worlds.

Yeah, just the sort of peak of dense,
like 18th, 19th century philosophy is all.

All on the shelf.

Speaker: Are you tempted
to crack any of them open?

Anything ple?

Yeah.

Speaker 2: I think I will.

It's just like I, I have not exactly
picked like page turner's here yeah.

But I think I will, yeah, we'll

Speaker: see.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker: All right.

Maybe our next book is
on that shelf somewhere.

Speaker 2: Oh, boy.

Speaker: To find out what it's,

Speaker 2: yeah.

Perhaps I would love for our next
book to be the Gita, but we'll talk

lots of time to talk about that.

Speaker: That's true, yes.

An infinite amount of time
at the pace work we're on.

Got,

Speaker 2: yeah.

Speaker: Okay.

In that spirit, should we jump
into it here and try to make some

progress, get within at least striking
distance of finishing book eight.

Speaker 2: Let's do it.

Speaker: Okay.

We're on entry number 56.

Other people's wills are as independent
of mine as their breath and bodies.

We may exist for the sake of one another,
but our will rules its own domain.

Otherwise, the harm they do would
cause harm to me, which is not

what God intended for my happiness
to rest with someone else.

Speaker 2: Nice, very
heartwarming and Disney.

We may exist for the sake of one another.

Like it's, I love that.

That's just like an obvious
statement to him at this point.

Speaker: Yeah, I too, yeah, that, that
is certainly something that leaps out to

me here that he believes that is nice.

And it's a re this actually, I
think I really like this entry

because I think it gets at,

Speaker 3: yeah,

Speaker: this sort of paradox about
him where he does believe that

about us, us existing for the sake
of one another, but he is also such

an individualistic lonely like.

Philosophy of loneliness in some ways.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker: And so here he's delineating it.

He's saying, yes, we exist for one
another, but also the world has dictated

that we all have our own little space.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that makes sense.

You this is it's playing
a little bit of defense.

Which I think is important.

It's this thing you realize over time,
like you, you come out and you're

like, when we're young and idealistic,
it's oh, everyone wants to everyone

has best intentions and as you there
are times where it's okay, actually,

so some people I just, I'm never
gonna understand and that's okay.

And they're just, they've stuff that I
like, they just, there's context there

that is just like outside of my bubble.

So maybe that's what I
thought about reading this.

Other people's wills are, the
example here would be like

you have a bipolar
brother or something, and

Speaker 3: I see

Speaker 2: it's just and that person
is unfortunately kills themselves

or something and then how much
of that is on me is this, sorry.

It's very intense example, but,

Speaker: No I think that's fair.

Yeah.

I'm interested in this sentence
about, otherwise the harm they

do would cause harm to me.

Speaker 2: the very selfish,

Speaker: yeah.

So like

his Marcus's concept of harm is like doing
something that's not aligned with your

true self or your spirit or whatever.

Yeah.

And yeah.

The point of this entry to me is yes, we
exist for the sake of one another, but

we all have this opportunity to act when
presented with the opportunity to act in

a, in accordance with ourselves or not.

And the damage we do when we
don't is very strictly constrained

to ourselves, is his point.

And you can't, we can't
accidentally harm each other really.

When we don't act within our nature.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Yeah.

Speaker: And he's, and his
point is, and that's good.

That's how the world should be,
and it's how God designed it.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

I think it's a good philosophy, right?

It's it just the core of
socialism, it's just, do what

you can within your own domain.

Don't try to solve everything all at once.

Speaker: What it makes me think of
a little bit is the YouTube video

that we watched all the way back
in the beginning of the podcast.

The Princeton or Michael
Sings, or whatever his name is.

Yeah.

Who talked about who really like most
explicitly, I remember talking him, him

talking about this there's things you
can control and things you can't control.

And those like, and dividing the world
into those two things is one of the

most important part parts of Stoicism.

And what's interesting is that has really
stuck with me the way Seg said that.

But it's actually not something that.

Marcus tends to say very cleanly in Yeah.

Anywhere.

Yeah.

This is about as close as
I can actually remember.

Remember him saying

Speaker 3: something?

Yeah.

Speaker: Classic stoicism.

I've been waiting for him to say.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

This whole book is imagine there's
this sort of statue of that represents

stoicism in the middle of a room.

This whole book is like the
shadows cast by a light on that

statue from different angles.

It's like Marcus just moves the light
around, and then shows you the shadows

and you're, and then he never really
tell, gives you the actual statue.

It's all just yeah, it's all
just the shadows of casts.

Speaker 3: So this is

Speaker 2: about, this is like
the straight, straight on shot.

This is like the closest
we get to, here's what

Speaker: Marcus Yes.

I like that metaphor for describing
what Marcus is doing here.

I think that's nice.

Yeah.

Why does he choose that method,
any thoughts on why he prefers

that shadow method as opposed to
just trying to write down Yeah.

Pros what stoicism means to him.

Speaker 2: I guess it'd just be a very
short book if it was just here's stoicism.

And also, he is writing, he's not
really writing this for other people.

He is writing it for
himself theoretically.

Yeah.

And so I guess the point is that it's not
enough to be told what stoicism is you.

You have to go through this experience
of seeing every single reflective

angle to like actually start to get it.

Speaker: You get a view this way.

Yeah.

What

Speaker 2: do you

Speaker: think?

I think that's probably right.

I think there's also something, maybe
I don't wanna accuse him of being

lazy, but there's something easier in
a way of about it can be really hard

to write something down philosophically
where you're just, here is the truth.

Let me tell it to you
as directly as I can.

That's right,

Speaker 4: that's true.

Speaker: It just invites all this like
nitpicking and logic disputing, whereas

this method is a little more kind of
impressionistic and like it's art, yeah.

That's true.

Speaker 2: nice.

Speaker: Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Number 57.

We speak of the sun's light as
pouring down on us, as pouring

over us in all directions.

Yet it's never poured out what?

Because it doesn't really
pour, it extends it's beams.

Parentheses here for a.

It looks like maybe a Greek
word to me or something.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker: Get their name
from their extension.

Wow.

M looks looks to me like
some kind of very old, yeah.

R word extension.

Yeah.

I don't really see any
connection of the words Acti.

Yeah.

Anything you're familiar with.

Yeah.

Okay.

To see the nature of a sunbeam.

Look at light as it falls through
a narrow opening into a dark room.

It extends in a straight line striking
any solid object that stands in its

way and blocks the space beyond it.

There it remains not
vanishing or falling away.

That's what the outpouring, the
diffusion of thought should be like.

Not emptied out, but extended
and not striking at obstacles

with fury and violence.

Falling away before them, but holding
its ground and illuminating what

receives it, what doesn't transmit
light, creates its own darkness.

Speaker 2: Wow.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaking of.

This is just like insanely spot on for
the metaphor that you just Oh yeah,

that's true actually, that's so true.

Ridiculously spot on for the
shadow metaphor you just presented.

Speaker 2: I guess he's saying the
philosophy itself is the lights.

Speaker 4: Yes.

I, yeah, that's true.

It's it's

Speaker 2: like inverse in that sense.

But yeah, it is funny that's
immediately what he started,

Speaker: what was on his mind.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Okay.

Alright.

I guess high level he's presenting
two, two ways to be philosophical.

One is like a bucket full
of water that you pour down.

Yeah.

And it like, and it's like this
forceful action that empties

you out and is more intense.

And then the other option is
to be, to act like the sun.

And just extend yourself, but
don't press against other objects.

Yes.

With furier violence, just
let them be illuminated.

Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

I actually really like that as a,
every, like the, I feel like the

canonical metaphor of stoicism
is a rock in a river, right?

Where.

You just think about just being
constant in a world that is changing.

But I actually really like this
metaphor for stoicism, which is

like constantly extending your light
into the world with a sort of immune

towards what that light actually hits.

Like the light is gonna hit what
it's gonna hit, and I'm gonna apply

my light to the things that it
can hit, and that's what I can do.

And there's constancy to it.

It's not so much about me.

Speaker 4: Right?

Speaker: Resisting or Right.

Like just trying to hang on in the world.

It's just about a sort of calm meditative.

This is me, I can do the thing that I do.

And that's all I can do.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.

That's true.

This whole thing about not striking
obstacles and just saying, okay,

those things that don't transmit,
like create their own darkness.

That's not my problem.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Is.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

That meant that sort of echoes all these
other things he likes to talk about.

Speaker: Yeah.

Yeah.

I'd really dig this metaphor.

I think this, to me, resonates more,
and maybe it's be only because we've

had a, eight chapters worth of book
to, to get us here and feel like I can

connect with this, but this resonates
for me way more than the just be a

rock in the river and don't like,

Speaker 2: yeah.

Interesting.

And the thing you don't like about being
a rock in the river is that it doesn't

impact other people, or doesn't really

Speaker: Yeah.

It seems much more isolated.

It seems much more just like That's true.

And it's got a premise
of life as just hold

Speaker 2: on.

Speaker: Yeah.

Yeah.

It's just like strictly life
is gonna try to beat you down.

Whereas this is a little bit more
neutral towards that question.

It's it's gonna be things
that obstruct your light.

And also there's gonna be
stuff you can shine light on.

Yeah.

Maybe it's just I haven't
heard this one before.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

So gimme an example of philosophically
something you could pour versus something

that you would extend or what's,

Speaker: yeah,

Speaker 2: let's try to get

Speaker: yeah.

Concrete.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: So I guess one, one example.

So he is the stoic emperor.

He could he is also the head
of the religion of the state.

He could try to pour this religion
into the state, or he could just act

this way himself and hope that it, and
not worry too much about what other

people, how other people interpret it.

Just let them learn from his actions.

Speaker: So there's like a leading
by example versus being super

didactic and telling people they
have to adhere to this philosophy.

Is I think what with making that concrete

Speaker 2: Yeah.

I don't, it, I don't love the way that,
that makes it sound like you shouldn't

try to make an impact kind of thing.

I, but I would imagine maybe what he's
saying is the sun makes an impact.

It just doesn't like, va vanish or fall
away or diffuse itself in doing so it,

it's just, if you're trying, if you're
focusing all your energy on pouring

this thing all the time, like you're
not gonna have that much of it left.

So conserve yourself,
maybe something like that.

Speaker: Yeah.

There, yeah.

There's this patience
that's being described here.

That I like, that's like.

And I guess it's important
that he's talking about how

to use thought in particular.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

So it's

Speaker: You're, you have this stuff
that you encounter in the world,

challenges, obstacles, whatever.

And like you could try to use
your thought and see one of your

problems and just be like, I'm
going, whatever it is I'm going to.

Yeah.

Destroy it and just go as hard as I
can on fixing whatever this thing is.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker: But he's prescribing is
something a little bit more removed where

it's just let your thought illuminate,
whatever that problem is, and maybe

that'll be something that your like
can solve, but maybe it will reveal

that somebody else is creating this
obstacle who you don't have control over.

Yeah.

And that would be an okay
thing to illuminate as well,

Speaker 2: right?

Oh yeah.

There's this kind of like.

The illumination is the goal, not yeah.

Doesn't matter what you illuminate as
long as you're illuminating something,

Speaker 3: I

Speaker 2: guess.

Speaker 3: Exactly, yes.

I like that.

Speaker 2: Cool.

Nice metaphor.

Speaker: Go on.

Yeah.

Interesting that you, you seem to
be very tuned into, to Marcus's

wife dear metaphorical choices.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker: Okay.

58.

Fear of death is fear of what
we may experience, nothing at

all, or something quite new.

But if we experience nothing,
we can experience nothing bad.

And if our experience changes,
then our existence will change

with it change but not cease.

Bit of a.

Like a pascal's wager type
argument going on here.

Remind me,

Speaker 2: Pascal's wager.

Speaker: Pascal's wager is the like
argument that when your death is

approaching, you can either be an A, like
I think he was an atheist or whatever, but

basic or actually I'm not sure about that.

The point is if you're aist,

Speaker 2: might as well believe

Speaker: you're right then.

Like whatever.

Fine.

There's no afterlife.

Congrats.

But if they're wrong, might as well pray.

Pray to God in your final moments
because you might turn out to be wrong.

Speaker 2: Wait.

Okay.

Speaker: I feel like there's a little
bit, he's not quite going to the

same extent of the logic here, but
it's a similar, where he's just okay,

death could be one of two things.

It could be the end of experience or
it could be a change in experience.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: And

Speaker 2: yeah,

Speaker: I understand what he's saying
about okay, if it's the end of experience.

He's saying that's okay.

Nothing bad will happen there.

So yeah, relax.

I don't totally feel like I've wrapped
my head around that last sentence.

If experience changes, then our
existence will change with it.

Change, but not cease.

Speaker 2: I, I think he's
describing proto heaven, right?

Speaker: Yeah, or just like
reincarnation or something too.

I guess it doesn't,

Speaker 2: I think.

Okay.

All I read into this was
like fear of death is fear of

whatever might happen next.

And there are only two options.

One is nothing at all.

Yeah.

And the other is something new.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And don't worry, because if
it's nothing at all, then that's fine.

Yeah.

And if it's something new, then.

Yes.

That's what question mark like, yes.

It'll be okay too or something.

Yeah.

Speaker: Yes.

Agreed.

And I think maybe the way I'm
understanding that last sentence

is something like he sees our our
existence as being like very much.

Matched to the experience we have in the
world where yeah, we're these students who

have these like the capability to think
and do stuff and then we're presented with

the opportunity to think and do stuff.

So it's like those things Are synced up.

Yeah.

And what he's saying is the universe,
like whatever your next existence is,

will match up whatever your existence
is to the kind of experience you have.

Yeah.

And as long as things are
matched, there's nothing to worry

Speaker 2: about that.

That's a deep thought.

This idea of you'll be
matched or something.

You'll

Speaker: yeah.

You're

Speaker 2: like, it's a weird thought.

It's it's different than Christianity.

It's,

Speaker 4: yeah.

That's

Speaker 2: not how someone would
describe hell, I guess in, in

hell you, it's not like you're
still, you still like nice things.

It's just you don't get
to have nice things.

And he's basically saying
that if it is hell.

Maybe you'll have lower
standards, it'll be fine.

Speaker: yeah.

Yeah.

I like that.

I think there is something
to this, I think from the

perspective of, I don't know.

We don't know much about this
objective, anyone else's objective

experience other than our own.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

But

Speaker: you look around the universe
or what we know about it, and this

maybe seems true, like things experience
seems to mostly match their existence.

Speaker 2: It's true, the sense humans
are incredible normalizer and like you

just kinda, wherever you end up and within
two months you're like, this is normal.

And then you go on like incremental
improvements or degradations, like

matter much more than like net over.

Speaker: Yeah.

Yeah.

That's an interesting thought.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

It's not quite pascal's wager.

It's a, it's an interesting little
twist on Pascal's wager I think.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

It's, it's non-prescriptive, is the, yeah.

Speaker: doesn't tell you what to do,
but also it is a different thought

about what comes next than just oh, you
might be going to heaven or, hell yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Yeah.

Speaker: Okay.

59, I think I like this.

It's very short.

People exist for one another.

You can instruct or endure them.

That's lovely.

I am I'm saying I like it in that
it's lovely, in part because it's

a little bit mysterious to me.

I don't, you have other
options, of course, than just

instructing and enduring them.

Speaker 2: What else?

Speaker: You could learn from them.

Speaker 2: Oh, I see.

Speaker: The, they're, it's a very

Speaker 2: instruct I guess learning
from them would be enduring.

I guess the idea is okay.

So yeah.

In marriage, right?

Yeah.

You, it, there is this element of
okay, this person is different than me.

I have two options, right?

I can okay, and instruct sounds
super condescending, but I can

like, we have a lifetime together.

Maybe I work with them on explaining
my sort of, what's going on and try

to change this or it's just oh, this
is the way it is, it's all good.

I, this is the person I love.

And it is a Mei, it is a
mutually exclusive, collectively

exhaustive list of options.

You have two options.

You can try to change it or
you can just deal with it.

Speaker: Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, I agree.

I see what you're saying.

Speaker 2: The words are funny, like yes.

Speaker: I think that's what I'm
reading, reacting to is I think what

you just said totally makes sense to me.

But when you think of it as
just the only options to are to

instruct them or endure them.

Speaker 3: Yeah, there's,

Speaker: There's a certain
haughtiness to that about

Speaker 3: Yeah.

It's like

Speaker: manifest here with these idiots.

And so of course you can either make
them shape up or you can just suffer.

I also feel like,

Speaker 2: okay, it's very human to think
of yourself as having the be, being.

So maybe it's like in the scenario where
you think you're right and they're stupid.

Then you still have to endure them.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And if you can't, if
you cannot successfully instruct

them, if they're like, no, I don't.

I don't buy it.

I like my way more.

Speaker: You can always endure them.

Speaker 2: Then you have to
go back to enduring them.

Yeah.

Speaker: There's something
lovely about the tension here.

It's such a simple two sentences.

Yeah.

But there's people exist for one
another to me is quite a warm sentence

with a lot of love for mankind.

And then it's immediately followed
by this very short sentence,

which both kind of sound like

Speaker 2: Yeah,

Speaker: work.

They both sound a form of
suffering brought on by other

Speaker 2: people.

That's true.

They're both negative.

That is funny actually.

It's,

Speaker: I, yeah,

Speaker 2: maybe it's like
maybe the people exist for

one another line is there to.

Highlight that you do need to
interact with other people.

It's it's, that's not an option and Right.

You have to make a choice.

Like you can't not make a choice between
instructing or enduring, and there's

maybe an activeness in the active
enduring, there's like a kind of a

an agency there where Yeah, your kind
of proactively accepting something.

Yeah.

As opposed to.

Not, try not to.

Yeah.

So I like, I think this could
make a good fridge magnet.

Speaker: I agree.

This stands out as fridge magnet
material to me actually too.

Although it's a little, it's
a little bleak or something.

Or read the wrong way.

It's a little 'cause one thing it does,
that I like about it, but it's also maybe

not the most fun to see in your fridge.

Is it as people exist for one another,
might be like his, just like state of

what they, if you had to describe life
in five words or whatever that might be.

Yeah.

And then the next sentence is okay, so
what power do we as individuals have?

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

You actually only have two
moves available to you.

Yeah.

That, that are important, which is a very
short list of things available to us.

Speaker 2: This feels this just
feels like the pithy response you

have as a manager or a parent when.

Someone comes to you
with a people problem?

Yes.

It's oh, this other team
is like really incompetent.

And it's you've got two options.

You can try to change it
or you can deal with it.

Those are the options available to you.

Speaker: Like I agree, if
your manager says that to you

though, they're being like,

They're giving it to you straight,
but it's, we're giving it

Speaker 2: to you straight.

Speaker: But it's

Speaker 2: but like I, I'm, I
will support you in either way.

If you wanna change it, here's how,
here's what we're gonna have to do.

You're gonna have to go through, and.

But yeah, you're right.

It is a little bit

Speaker 4: pit, it's a little
cold to just be like, it's a cold.

Those are the two options, pal.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

It's a little bit like stop
complaining is what Yeah,

Speaker 4: exactly.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Which is stoic.

I actually do think that is at the essence
of STOs and it's okay there are things you

can control and things you, this is things
you can control, things you can't control.

That's what this is.

Speaker: Yeah, that's right.

That's right.

I dig it.

He's got some weird,
mark has some bangers.

Did I These at

Speaker 2: the end of the chapter.

My goodness.

Speaker: Yeah, he's big crescendo
here at the end of the, yeah,

Speaker 2: exactly.

Okay.

It's like the end of an
episode of a TV show.

We get all the crazy stuff and then
we're gonna have a cliffhanger.

Yes,

Speaker: that's right.

Okay.

I think we're gonna finish this chapter
today if your time allows, we only have

two entries left here and they're short.

Speaker 2: Let's do it.

Speaker: Okay.

Number 60, an arrow.

Has one motion and the mind another,
even when pausing, even when

weighing conclusions, the mind is
moving forward towards its goal.

Okay.

We just said Marcus had bangers,
but I'm confused by this.

I think.

So we're meant the first sentence we're
meant to be contrasting the motion of an

arrow and the motion of the mind, I think.

And so if I didn't read the
rest of the entry, the place

I would go with that is okay.

Arrows are like, they only move, they
move quite linearly and the mind does

this more complicated back and forth
and moving around kind of thing.

But then the next sentence, he says
that the mind is always moving forward.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

I get the sense that he's
saying they're the same or like

he's not actually contrast.

It's not a juxtaposition, it's a,

Speaker: it's a compare of contrast.

Yeah.

But why then the first sentence
is big, is just like screams

contrast and not Yeah, it

Speaker 2: does.

It does to me as well.

Okay.

But let's say he, what he means is that
the arrow might be like flying this

way and the mind is flying that way,
but what they share is this kind of.

Speaker: The type of motion they get

Speaker 2: the type of motion.

But boy, is that

Speaker: Why are we even
thinking about the arrow then?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Even when pausing,

Speaker: even when pausing is
also mysterious, like it pauses

and moves forward simultaneously
is a mind boggling thought.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Okay.

So let's try to, let's do the thing where
we give 'em all the benefit of the doubt.

It's is this idea that, it can often
feel like thoughts are non-linear or

that they're, you're getting bogged down.

But in reality, these sort of pit
stops along the way are the journey.

And you just, you need to like,
consider that and it's okay to pause

and con, con consider the options.

It's all part of forward movements in
the way that the minds work or something.

Yeah.

Speaker: I like that.

I think that's right.

And it's yeah, minds it might like.

Your experience of your mind might not
feel like, oh, I'm moving forward Towards,

Speaker 3: yeah, towards,

Speaker: towards its goals.

But his point is that's just like a,
like you should think of it as traveling.

Kind of an arrow does actually.

Yeah.

It's doing things like pausing
or weighing options, which might

not feel like forward progress.

Speaker 2: It's pretty crazy idea.

So he's basically saying that, so
let's treat it like an axiom, right?

Mines always move like arrows.

You may not.

You're a sort of, we humans consciousness
may think that, your mind is

actually crazy and is jumping around.

You can't control it.

But actually there's, you
just don't understand.

You're just like, you don't understand
how this arrow, where this arrow is going.

And so you just, you're like
applying the wrong, so just assume

that mine's always moves straight.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And then it's this
incredibly empowering let your

mind go whichever way it wants to
because it's, it knows best it's very

Speaker: the implication is that you're
like, along for the ride, your mind.

Yeah.

And something sets goals for your
mind and your goal, your mind

just like hones in on those goals.

Yeah.

And you have this weird experience
of just like following your

mind towards those things.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Yeah.

Exactly.

So it's exactly.

So you're making a decision about whether
or not to like fire this lieutenant.

And you're like really stuck.

You're like really thinking about
okay, what, boy, I wanna have,

do this in a principled way.

And what are the implications?

And but you end up stalling
for months on this and then the

lieutenant like ends up, I don't
know, murdering someone or something.

And so in your, in the sort of the non
stoic way, you're like, ah, I screwed up.

I shouldn't have paused.

But in the stoic way, you're like,
actually the arrow was never.

Or the mind was never making just this
small decision of around this lieutenant.

It was a broader decision around
the implications and the principles

of how I should run my empire.

And that's the arrow.

Yeah.

Speaker: It raises a question
to me about the goals.

There's this key clause at
the end about, toward its

Speaker 3: goal,

Speaker: always moving towards its goal.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

But

Speaker: who's in charge
of setting those goals and

Speaker 2: yeah.

The arrow is not really in
charge of setting its goal,

Speaker: yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: Its goal.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker 2: So if your mind
is someone else's arrow

Speaker: Yes.

Whose arrow is My mind is that my, some
other part of me, my spirit is the,

Speaker 2: yeah.

Speaker: Bowman and the
mind is just the arrow.

Speaker 2: There's an empowered
version where that's true.

And then there's another version
where the Gods are shooting.

Yeah.

Gods

Speaker: were, yes.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: It's an interesting analogy.

Speaker: Yeah.

The one other way in which this
resonates for me, this is more minor,

but it's something that I always
loved, was the feeling when I was

studying math very intentionally
in college and graduate school.

This feels true in the sort of way
that the conscious mind and the

subconscious mind can work together.

Where I really distinctly remember having
experiences of thinking really hard

about a math problem and not figuring
it out and being like this sucks.

I'm not making any,

Speaker 3: yeah,

Speaker: I go to sleep.

And then you wake in the morning.

Or even some memorable occasion
for me in the middle of the night

being like, re, I understand it now.

And because your mind has been working
on it in the background without,

Wow.

So I, to me, I guess
that seems like plausible

Speaker 2: pausing.

Yeah,

Speaker: exactly.

Speaker 2: That's cool.

Speaker: Yeah I, okay, fine.

I I just called, I called into
question whether or not this one too

was a banger, but I'm open to the
possibility that 60 is a banger as well.

Speaker 2: Alright, another banger.

All right, last one.

Speaker: Let's end it on a banger
here, Marcus 61 to enter others'

minds and let them enter yours.

One of his famous, not a full sentence.

Speaker 2: this could just
be empathy period, right?

Yeah,

Speaker: pretty much.

Yeah.

And like vulnerability.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Empathy and vulnerability.

Speaker: Yeah.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Great.

Speaker: He's into the
we exist for each other

Speaker 2: stuff.

Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

This book, I think this goes
hand in hand with that for me.

Speaker 2: It's interesting.

Yeah.

It goes against what he said earlier
about how what did he say that

Speaker: we're all kind of kingdoms of
our, or kings of our own little, yeah.

Speaker 2: Other people's
wills are independence of mine.

Yeah, that's true.

But I guess this is, it's like
entering your mind is a little

different than in that domain.

You like a guest in someone's
mind rather than, yeah.

Yeah.

So I, I think this speaks to in general,
we shouldn't assume he's talking in

extremes, if he has 61, but he also had
56 where he talks about Yeah, like I guess

the truth is somewhere in the middle and
he's acknowledging that Yes, it's nice.

Speaker: Yeah, I think that's right.

I think he's acknowledging that
this, yes, this relationship of

our minds to one another's minds
and our actions is a complicated.

I also wonder, I feel like it's
another thing where I wonder if he

has some concept of will and mind and
these things that is, we treat some

of that stuff as basically the same.

If someone's will in their mind
to us sound fairly synonymous.

But I wonder for him how different
those things might actually be.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Good one.

That's a good theme for the week,

Speaker: yeah, I agree.

Speaker 2: And vulnerability.

Speaker: Yeah, I dig it.

It's also it's another way of
interpreting this is, it's like

what books are for too, right?

Like it's, yeah.

So yeah it's we continue on
this journey of letting his mind

enter ours, entering his mind.

It's both.

Yeah.

Okay.

Speaker 2: Congratulations, Tom.

Speaker: I would, I didn't think we were
gonna do this episode, but we did it.

We crushed, I think we had
some nice entries in there

and I really enjoyed that.

And we are done with
book eight, so we are.

Two

Speaker 2: book.

9 9,

Speaker: 2 thirds of the way through.

That's it.

Speaker 2: Only two thirds.

Speaker: Two thirds.

There's there.

I believe there are 12 books.

Speaker 4: Oh my goodness.

All right.

Speaker: We still got plenty of
meditations ahead of us, but a nice

little milestone for us here today.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

All right, chow for now.

See you next week.

Speaker: Bye.

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