Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

How to turn down the chatter of negative self-talk.

If you want to have better conversations with others, Ethan Kross says you first have to quiet down the chatter in your own head.
A professor, researcher, and author, Kross defines chatter as a “negative thought loop” that hijacks our attention and undermines our ability to perform. “We have a limited capacity to focus our attention,” he says. “Attentional resources are a limited commodity, and chatter acts like a sponge that consumes that capacity. It leaves very little leftover that allows us to do the things that we want or need to do.” 
In his work researching, teaching, and writing about emotional regulation and the conscious mind, Kross has explored how to manage the negative self-talk that sabotages our concentration. “Here's the good news,” he says. “You can get out of it. Managing your chatter [is] a lot like becoming physically fit” — and he’s developed tools and frameworks for building the muscles to turn down the noise.
In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Kross joins host Matt Abrahams to share methods for quieting chatter and reclaiming precious mental resources. From distanced self-talk to mental time travel, his tools offer a way to tune out the static and tune into clarity and connection.

To listen to the extended Deep Thinks version of this episode, please visit FasterSmarter.io/premium.

Episode Reference Links:
Connect:

Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (02:45) - Defining Chatter
  • (05:15) - Breaking the Loop
  • (10:12) - Technology & Emotional Sharing
  • (13:38) - Why “Get Over It” Fails
  • (18:58) - Emotions as Data
  • (21:29) - The Final Three Questions
  • (27:14) - Conclusion

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Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Ethan Kross
Psychologist | Neuroscientist | Author | Professor

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.

Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

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Matt Abrahams: Doom loops can be one
of the biggest barriers to effective

communication, yet we can quiet the
chatter and regulate our emotions.

My name is Matt Abrahams and I
teach strategic communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

Today I'm really excited
to speak with Ethan Kross.

Ethan is an award-winning professor
of management and organizations at the

University of Michigan's Ross School
of Business, and he is a director

of its emotion and self-control lab.

He studies emotion regulation
and the conscious mind.

Ethan has written two bestselling
books, Chatter: The Voice in Our Head,

Why It Matters, and How to Harness It.

And his latest book is Shift: Managing
Your Emotions So They Don't Manage You.

Welcome Ethan.

I'm really excited for our conversation.

Ethan Kross: It's a delight
and honor to be here, Matt.

I've been looking forward to this for a
while now, so glad we can make it happen.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

Shall we get started?

Ethan Kross: Yeah, let's do it.

Matt Abrahams: So let's
start our chat about chatter.

Your work on chatter explores
our internal self-talk and how

it can hijack our performance.

Can you explain how this happens?

Ethan Kross: Yeah.

We should probably start by
defining what chatter means.

Chatter refers to getting stuck
in a negative thought loop, and

they're really two kind of telltale
signs that you are experiencing it.

So one is you've got a legitimate
problem that you're facing.

Maybe it's a problem at work, maybe
it's a problem at home, and you're

motivated to work through that problem,
to use your glorious, marvelous

brain to come up with a solution.

The problem is you're not successful,
so you keep on trying to work through

the problem, but you don't make any
progress and you start spinning.

Sometimes you call this worry,
sometimes we call rumination.

The common thread, there's a legitimate
problem, but you're not progressing.

So that's one sign that you're
experiencing this state of chatter.

Another is you just berate
yourself incessantly.

I'm an idiot.

Such an idiot.

How can I have done this?

And you just pile on yourself.

How does this undermine performance?

One way it does so is by
consuming your attention.

So let me ask you this question, Matt.

Have you ever been in a situation where
you sit down to read a few pages in a

book, and under oath you would swear to a
judge that you've read the information on

the page except you get to the end and you
do not remember a damn thing you've read.

Matt Abrahams: Ethan, that happens
so frequently that it is common.

Ethan Kross: Well, and it's, in my
experience, talking to lots of people

about this stuff over the years, this is a
universal experience we all have at times.

And chatter just promotes this.

So how does this work?

We have a limited capacity
to focus our attention.

Our attentional resources are a
precious, limited commodity in our

brains, and chatter acts like a sponge
that consumes that limited capacity.

It leaves very little leftover
that allows us to do the things

that we want or need to do.

So that's one way it can
undermine our performance.

The other thing it can lead to is
something that we call analysis paralysis.

Here, the idea is you start overthinking
things that you can normally do

without thinking to the point where
the entire performance crumbles.

If you watch sports, you see
this happening all the time to

athletes who choke under pressure.

All of a sudden the second baseman, who
could historically throw the ball to

first base with their eyes closed, now
can't get anywhere near the vicinity.

That is also a function of chatter, and
those are two powerful detriments to our

ability to excel in performance context.

Matt Abrahams: So chatter sucks up
our cognitive bandwidth and it has us

doing things more consciously than we
might normally do it, and that's what

gets in the way of us performing well.

I see this play out all the time
in the work I do around helping

people feel more comfortable
and confident in communicating.

Anxiety around speaking gets into
this chatter loop very easily.

But what are some techniques
we can use to break this cycle?

Ethan Kross: An early experience that I
had with analysis paralysis was when I was

first public speaking as a grad student.

One of the first classes
I taught, it went well.

I got some feedback though that
said that I had forgotten to smile

enough, and so in the second time I
came back I overcorrected, and like

I smiled so widely that it disrupted,
I forgot what I wanted to say.

Matt Abrahams: And that happens a lot.

People get caught up on things like
they hear themselves saying or they know

what they wanted to say in a certain
way, and then they get into these doom

loops that prevent them from performing
well and how do we get out of that?

Ethan Kross: So here's the good news.

You can get out of it.

More good news, if someone has told
you about a tool that worked for them,

but it didn't work for you, no problem.

Because what we have learned from the
science is that different tools work for

different people in different situations.

There are no one size fits all solutions.

I think of managing your chatter a
lot like becoming physically fit.

So most of us have goals to be
physically fit for different reasons.

Some of us want bigger muscles.

Some of us wanna be able to run longer.

Based on who you are and your goals,
you're gonna benefit from doing different

kinds of exercises and routines.

The same is true when it comes
to managing your chatter.

So what can you do?

Well, there are some things you could just
do on your own, basic ways of shifting

the way you're thinking or behaving that
can turn the volume on your chatter down.

One category of tools that a lot of people
benefit from or call distancing tools.

So here the idea is when you find
yourself zoomed in very narrowly on

a problem and you're ruminating about
it, let's find a way to help you step

back and look at the circumstance
a bit more objectively, almost like

you'd be hearing it from a friend.

Most of us have had the experience
of finding it much easier for

us to give great advice to a
friend as compared to ourselves.

There's a name for this phenomenon.

We've studied it in my lab.

It's called Solomon's Paradox, named
after the Bible's King Solomon.

King Solomon was known for being super
wise when it came to other people.

When it came to himself,
he made terrible decisions.

This is true of all of us.

So how do you step outside yourself?

Lots of ways to do it.

One tool that I'm fond of is
called distanced self-talk.

So what this involves is trying
to work through a problem

using your own name and you.

So if I'm really stressed out before
a big presentation, I might think

to myself, all right, Ethan, how
are you gonna manage this situation?

How have you managed a situation before?

Here's why distanced self-talk helps.

It leverages language to
shift our perspective.

Most of the time that we use the
word you or a name, we're using

those parts of speech when we think
about or refer to someone else.

So the link in a person's mind between
the word you as an example, and another

person is about as strong as you can get.

So when you use that part of speech to
reference yourself, it's essentially

turning on the brain machinery
for thinking about someone else.

Makes it a lot easier for us to work
through our problems objectively.

So that's one tool you can use.

Another tool is something that I call
mental time travel into the future.

Super simple.

How am I gonna feel about this
presentation three hours from now, three

days from now, three years from now?

All of our emotions they
take place on a timeline.

So you're living your life,
something happens and emotion

gets spiked, and as time goes
on, the emotion eventually fades.

When we're consumed with chatter,
we zoom in on the peak of that

experience and the awfulness, oh
my God, everyone's staring at me.

And what if I forget to
say what I need to say?

What if to go to the bathroom,
and blah, blah, blah.

It is amazing, I should add, that how
creative we can be in coming up with

worst case scenarios in those moments.

So when you zoom in on the pinnacle
of the negative experience, what

you lose sight of is something that
you know at your core to be true.

You know this to be true because
you've experienced what I'm about

to describe millions of times in
your life, which is the emotion has

come and has increased, but then
as time has gone on, it has faded.

So when you jump into the mental time
travel vision, you think, hey, how

am I gonna feel about this tomorrow?

Or next week?

It automatically makes accessible this
notion that what you're going through,

as awful as it is, it's temporary.

It will eventually fade.

And that does something very powerful
to a mind that is racked with chatter.

It gives it hope, and that
turns the volume down too.

So those are just two examples.

There are dozens of tools out there.

Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate
that, the distanced self-talk, putting

yourself as the person you're giving
advice to, and then asking yourself

what this means in the future.

I've heard things like writing things
down, just recognizing mindfulness

teaches us that this is what I'm
experiencing in the moment, all of those

give us a little bit of space to be
able to manage, so thank you for that.

Given that a lot of our interactions
are mediated, they're virtual, they're

through social media, I'm curious
if you've found that there are any

differences in our self-talk or how
we should approach those interactions?

Ethan Kross: I think it's really
important for us to be mindful

of the modality that we are
communicating to other people through.

Technology has provided us with just
enormous opportunities to be more

efficient and effective, but there
are some trade offs that you get.

So here's something I think about often
when it comes to chatter and technology.

We know from lots of research that
when people experience strong emotional

reactions of the sort that characterize
chatter, they're intensely motivated

to share the glory that is streaming
through their mind with other people.

That is, they wanna talk about it.

Now, in the real, in the non-social
media, non-technology, quote unquote,

real world, there are some obstacles
that are embedded into life that prevent

you from immediately talking about
your chatter in the instant that it

has spiked and is perhaps most extreme.

Number one, you've gotta find
someone to talk to and people

aren't like always available.

And then once you find them, they may
not even be able to listen to you, right?

So you've gotta wait some
time to find someone.

And then what often happens as
time passes, some scientists

describe time as a component of
our psychological immune system.

That is, time works to reduce the
intensity of our emotional responses.

As time goes on, our emotions fade, right?

So you're waiting to talk to
someone in the real world.

You finally, you know, my wife, I
finally reconnect with her five hours

later, I'm not as upset as I was before.

Social media though, gives us access to a
network at all times, and when you couple

it with smartphones, you whip it out at
the very peak, and then you're sharing.

And there's one other thing to keep
in mind, which is, on social media,

I am sharing my inner thoughts and
sometimes frustrations into a text box.

When I am face-to-face with someone,
I'm in the presence of another human

being who is sending me all of this rich
information back about how what I'm doing

and how I'm behaving is affecting them.

That is, your face, your body is
sending me information about how

you are feeling, and that can
constrain the way I behave to you.

Like sometimes, Matt, I'll be honest, like
when I'm pissed off, I mean, it's like

a Robert De Niro film in there, right?

Like the expletives that are going,
if I said some of these things out

loud, I would be in big trouble.

I would never talk to you that way.

I wouldn't talk to any
other human being that way.

And it's because you are
calibrating how I communicate.

So I think it's just really important to
be mindful of these modality differences,

'cause we do see that people are much more
likely to share emotional information in

an unfiltered way on social media that
can sometimes get them in big trouble.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely, and I think
it's important to always be thinking

about the channel and what that means
for how and when, and how specific

you can be in your communication.

I really like that idea of time
being part of the immune system and

really helping calm things down.

I appreciate that.

You've said that a common piece of
bad advice is simply get over the

negative feelings that people have.

I'm curious, why is that such a bad
idea, and if it is, what are some

communication frameworks or tools you
can share with us that we can use to

acknowledge others' negative feelings,
without just saying, hey, get over it.

How can we help them
process those feelings?

Ethan Kross: Yeah, just get over
it doesn't really give people a

whole lot of tactical information
to help them get over it.

I think a lot of people, when
they're struggling, they're highly

motivated to reduce that struggle.

They don't wanna stay in that
state, for the most part.

And so when you just tell people,
just get over it, it's not like

they're not trying to do so.

In my latest book, I tell this anecdote
where my wife and I were driving back

from dinner in Detroit with another
couple, very close friends of ours,

and the husband has been experiencing
some real stress at work, and it was

the source of some chatter, and he
was describing it to us in the car.

And his wife says to him, yeah, why don't
you just think differently about it?

Effectively like, just get over it.

And he turns to her and goes, yeah,
easier bleeping said, than done.

And he did not say bleeping,
I'll let you fill in the blanks.

And so the idea is, okay, but how?

It's equivalent to like, just
get in shape, just lose weight.

But I've never taught you the
exercises and nutritional regimens

you need to accomplish those goals.

What is the best way of supporting
other people when they're struggling

with chatter or big emotions?

There's a two-step science-based
framework that I'm particularly fond of.

I'm fond of it because it's
grounded in rigorous science.

I'm also fond of it because I have
personally found enormous value in it.

Because before I came in contact with
this framework, people would come to me

for help and I didn't know what to say.

Like, sorry, I feel for
you, but now I have a guide.

So what is in, what are the
steps in this framework?

Step one is emotionally
connect with the person.

Listen to the problem, validate what
they're experiencing, show empathy,

connect with them, communicate
that you are there for them.

They have your support.

And also learn about the circumstance.

You need to wrap your head around it.

Once you have a sense that those social
and emotional connections have been

forged, then you wanna shift to starting
to work with that person to help broaden

their perspective, help give them actual
tools that can benefit them, right?

So Matt, you come to me with a problem.

I listen, I learn, you know
that I'm genuinely here for you.

I might throw it back to you and be
like, hey, so what would you tell me if

I was in your circumstance or I was in
that situation a couple of years ago.

You know what really benefited me?

It was actually doing this mental time
travel thing where I went into the future.

Maybe you try that.

And there are lots of different
tools you could slip during

that part of the conversation.

But the idea is you lay the groundwork,
the emotional groundwork for giving

those tools at the beginning part of
the conversation, and then you come

into problem solving mode at the end.

That's the formula for both being a
good chatter advisor to someone else.

It's also a formula for helping
you figure out who are the people

that you should put on your chatter
advisory board, who are the people

who do both of these things for me?

Because I'll tell you, when I do audits
of people's advisory boards with them,

there are lots of people that folks
go to talk to about their problems,

they don't do both of those things.

Sometimes they just co-ruminate
with the other person in ways that

make the situation even worse.

Matt Abrahams: I really like this
idea of a chatter advisory board and

really think about who are the people
that help you, and it might be the

same person or it might be different
people for different situations, but

I really like that proactive idea.

And then as somebody who is trying to
help others, we talk a lot on this show,

and with a lot of people and colleagues
that you and I have in common, about how

we can connect, we can ask questions,
we can paraphrase, we can demonstrate

our empathy, to really learn about
the circumstance before we begin to

provide potential advice and guidance.

And the examples you used of advice
and guidance, I think, I wanna call

everybody's attention to, you didn't
say you should do this, you said, in

my experience, I have found this helped
me, which it changes the dynamic.

So the tone and manner in which you give
the advice, I think is really important.

Ethan Kross: Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

The you should, you wanna
use that very sparingly.

Matt Abrahams: I have a
friend who says you shouldn't

should all over people, right?

But saying from your own experience
opens up for conversation.

Ethan Kross: Yeah.

And just to take that a beat further,
'cause I think it's such an incredibly

insightful and important point, Matt,
is why is it that the kind of softer

way in to giving the info is important?

It's because all human beings have
this fundamental drive towards agency.

It's a drive to believe, to use
the technical term, that we are

capable of handling our own shit.

And when you threaten that drive, it
elicits a kind of defensive reactance.

And so if you could get in there a little
bit softer, it makes it all easier.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

I love the technical term.

Thank you.

I'd like to shift our conversation away
from chatter to your latest book, Shift.

You've already alluded to it, but
it's all about emotional regulation,

and by the way, it's fantastic.

You say in there that a key to
managing your inner world is to view

our emotions not as problems to be
suppressed, but as data to be analyzed.

So this is a way of reframing it.

What does this shift do for us and
how can we train ourselves to use this

reframe so we can get some of the benefit?

Ethan Kross: I think one of the big
problems we have in society right now,

at least in Western society, is we often,
we give people these aspirational goals

to live lives free of negative emotions,
striving for happiness all the time.

Sometimes this leads to what
we call toxic positivity.

And here's the problem with that.

Number one, you're giving
people an impossible goal.

There's no way you can achieve this goal
of never experiencing negative emotions.

Number two, it is an undesirable goal
because your negative emotions in

the right proportions are helpful.

Let me give you a couple of examples.

Anxiety, when I don't experience any
anxiety before an important presentation,

the performance I deliver is not as good
as when I do experience low anxiety.

Why is that?

Because the anxiety is information that
tells me, hey, dopey, trying to start

looking over your slides and making
sure it's all top of mind, right?

If I don't do that, I just
walk in, it doesn't go as well.

Anger is what motivates me to intervene
when my daughter doesn't put on her

helmet when she's riding her bike.

So we experience anger when our
conception of what is right and

wrong is transgressed, and there's an
opportunity for you to fix the situation,

and you approach, you intervene.

In the right proportions
those are healthy.

The big problem, of course, is
we often experience negative

emotions out of proportion.

That's why it's important to understand
how to regulate it, but we really need

to understand that we should not be
throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Just because negative emotions are harmful
some of the time doesn't mean that they

don't serve a vital role in our lives.

Matt Abrahams: Taking that
reframe really can help.

When I feel my anxiety before giving
a speech or my anger with one of my

kids because they're driving too fast,
when I see that as, hey, this is input

for me to then act upon rather than
something to bury deep inside or get

overwhelmed by, I can really make
a difference and I appreciate that.

It, again, takes that little bit
of distancing to give yourself

that space to do that though.

Before we end, I always
ask people three questions.

One I make up just for you and the
other two I've been asking people as

long as the podcast has been around.

Are you up for that?

Ethan Kross: Yeah.

Let's do it.

Matt Abrahams: Question number one.

You have studied awe.

Can you tell us very quickly what awe
is and what have you learned about it?

Ethan Kross: Yeah.

Awe is an emotion we experience
when we're in the presence of

something vast and indescribable.

Something that just feels
bigger than ourselves.

And what we've learned is that
number one, you can experience awe

from lots of different sources.

So a lot of people find awe in nature.

Beautiful sunset, fall foliage.

I'm a science guy and I often am filled
with awe when I contemplate the fact

that we human beings have cracked
the puzzle of interplanetary travel.

That is, we have figured out how
to blast a vehicle off this planet,

and safely land it on planet Mars,
and my mind is just can't comprehend

how we figured out how to do that.

When we experience this emotion
of awe, it leads to what we

call shrinking of the self.

We feel smaller when we're contemplating
something vast and indescribable.

And when we feel smaller, so do all of
the troubles that are weighing us down.

And so it's an important reminder
of another resource we possess

for managing our emotions.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, and awe, I think,
also can be experienced internally.

You can think about internal
things as well, not just external.

So again, it's a way of
distancing and perspective taking.

Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

Ethan Kross: My good friend
Angela Duckworth is, I think, just

exceptional at clearly talking about
science that honors its richness,

but still being really impactful.

And I think finding that sweet
spot between being able to talk

with impact, but not diluting the
science, is really hard to do.

Matt Abrahams: She is an amazing
communicator and you and Katy Milkman

have both nominated her as a person
that is admired, so thank you for that.

Our final question, Ethan, what are
the first three ingredients that go

into a successful communication recipe?

Ethan Kross: Clarity, simplifying as
much as you can, but not beyond that,

and sharing your passion and love of
what you're doing and talking about.

Matt Abrahams: Clarity, simplicity, and
emotion that you feel and experience.

Thank you for that recipe and thank you
for all the insights you've provided.

A lot of us carry around a lot of chatter.

It can make it hard for us to regulate our
emotions and manage, and you've given us

some very specific advice and guidance.

The one thing I am certainly taking
away as my chatter advisory board,

uh, I'm sending out applications to
several people to join right away.

Thank you, Ethan, for your time.

Ethan Kross: Thanks for having me.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

To learn more about how to manage our
internal world and negativity, please

listen to episode 179 with Lori Santos.

This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

With special thanks to
Podium Podcast Company.

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