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Welcome to The Anti-Racism Leadership Institute, where we engage in thoughtful conversations with professors and visionary leaders who are dedicated to dismantling racism in schools and transforming education. Join us as we explore their inspiring journeys, innovative strategies, and impactful initiatives aimed at creating more inclusive, equitable, and anti-racist learning environments. Our podcast is a platform for sharing insights, stories, and actionable ideas that can help shape a brighter, more just future for education. Tune in and be inspired to be a part of the change!
Hello, Welcome everyone to the
Anti Racism Leadership Institute
Research Practice Podcast.
Today we have a wonderful guest, great
friend, colleague, someone I really admire
as an education leader that I met over
two years ago when she first applied to
join the Anti Racism Leadership Institute.
And now has become a full time person
on staff, our first full time hire.
And it's just been a wonderful
partnership over time.
And I appreciate her coming on the
podcast to have a conversation today.
So Dr.
Crystal Harden Lindsay, if
you wouldn't mind introducing
yourself to the listeners today.
Sure.
Thank you for having me, Dr.
Benson.
It has been a privilege to be on
this learning journey with you.
I can remember when I first
applied I was looking to do
something different in education.
I had been a principal for
eight years by that time.
Before then I was a teacher for 11 years.
Transition and was CEO of Green
Street Academy, as well as the
president of the Maryland Alliance
for Public Charter Schools.
So, at that time, I was really busy, but
I had a fire burning in my belly and you
were speaking my language around anti
racism in the work that it takes to.
Move students and really talk with
adults about instructional practices.
So I got excited and applied and grateful.
2 years later, I am still here with
you and still on this learning journey.
So thank you for having me
Thank you for being here.
And Crystal is now our chief.
What's the title?
Chief.
Program
Program officer.
I was like, chief admissions officer?
We're not a college.
Chief program officer, right?
You know, facilitation, coaching,
managing coaches, and everything
else that comes under an umbrella
of what we have to hold down here at
the Anti Racism Leadership Institute.
And so, if you're thinking back to
the time in which you chose, because
you, you were among the first seven.
Coaches that I ever hired.
It was just me and my ops team.
You know, I was a facilitator.
I was the coach.
I did all the sort of the clerical work.
I did all the traveling and
expanded so much that I needed
folks to support the coaching work.
And so when you saw the ad, you were
busy yourself with what you were doing.
So what intrigued you about it?
And why did you choose to join?
The number one thing that I always tell
people that intrigue me is the words
anti-racism So I have been working in
Baltimore and we were fixated on DEI,
diversity, equity, and inclusion, and
that can span over so many different
aspects of life and and intersectionality.
Intersectionality, but as you know,
Baltimore is a pretty Black city
and I felt like we were running
away from talking about race.
So the fact that this particular
institute or job opportunity afforded
me an opportunity to talk about how
race impacts how we educate students.
I was really, really excited.
In addition to that, I had been a
part of different DEI efforts and I
was never really excited about them
because it seemed to be the same
people talking at you and you don't
really walk away with having to do
something that will impact kids and so
when I read the actual job posting, it
said, must be willing to take action.
I'm like, Oh, these people
want us to do something.
This might be pretty awesome.
If I'm going to be totally honest in
this process, I also wanted to challenge
myself to see if I could really
speak to what race meant in my space.
I was working in a really,
I would say white school.
When I say white school, I'm talking
about the staff members and the actual
founders and owners of the school.
And they were white men, 65 and older.
And so there were so many
opportunities for me to directly
speak to aspects of the work that
race was at the top of what I saw.
And my staff like to stick to diversity,
equity and inclusion because it felt safe.
I wanted to ask you more about,
you know, just like the ins
and outs of how it happened.
So as far as my history, I was a
Black principal of a high school
with all the staff, all the teachers,
folks who work there were white.
I had two Black teachers, two Black
paras in the special ed department.
So I had, you know, around 200
adults in the building, and I
was the Black principal, right?
And Knowing that I wanted to talk
about race, but yet not being
able to in terms of my mindset,
what was your sort of barrier?
So you knew that you
serve Black kids, right?
Majority Black kids, white staff.
What were the barriers to being
able to talk openly about race in
your building when you were the
principal and executive director?
start with just sharing that there
were I would say maybe we had about.
70 staff members of the 70 staff members,
the middle school teachers were mostly
Black teachers and the high school
teachers were mostly white teachers and it
naturally created a division that looked
like it was segregated based on race.
So, there will be issues that will
come up where the Black teachers will
be saying, well, the white teacher
said this and the white teacher saying
that Black teachers are saying these
things and they connected it to race.
And because we had been
deep in this space.
They would say, you know, we really need
some work on being culturally competent.
I'd be like, what what
does that really mean?
Like, what are what are we really saying?
And when it came to addressing race.
At the board level, because I answered
to a board at that time, most of my
board members were white, older men
and they were well, meaning people.
And for the most part, I would
say wonderful people, but the
connection to race, if you brought.
Anything up that was specifically
connected to race, made the room
very uncomfortable almost to the
point where you would have silence.
And it made me really nervous
because I was a net will employ.
I knew that my board, they
were brought into the model.
But when you specifically start talking
about race, people get a little nervous
and while Baltimore is considered
a very Black city, the power does
not lie with the people of color.
Most of the executive,
especially in my space.
They were white and they
were men in most cases.
So many times I would be the only
person of color at the table.
In some cases, The only woman, so I had
3 pieces that seemed to work against me.
Sometimes One was age.
I seem really young compared
to the other operators.
I was sometimes the only woman.
Compared to who was in the room,
and then definitely being a person
of color last, but not least Dr.
Benson, I have to add this in
and I was also a Baltimore.
So, Baltimore is a place
where people from the outside.
Come in, and they create all these
initiatives and the real question is.
Do we really want them like, do
we want these new initiatives?
And that was a piece that I
believe is connected to race.
And so, you know, it was
just a really interesting.
Pivotal point for me, where I said,
I want to be able to speak to this
and not worry about, my job, if it's
going to have an impact on students.
Gotcha, gotcha.
Yes, you said a lot in terms of your
identity and the environment and
the willingness of those who have
up in the racial hierarchy, right?
White men in terms of the racial hierarchy
are at a point where white men wield
extreme power over the ability for us
to have these conversations because
they can have very real impacts on your
job and your livelihood if they become,
you know, fragile and react poorly.
So.
You mentioned DEI a
couple of times, right?
And that DEI was an example of
diversity, equity, and inclusion, right?
That's like race ish.
How do we manage not to talk
about race if we're talking about
diversity, equity, and inclusion?
How does that happen?
you know, I, this drives me
crazy, but I'm going to say it.
Dr.
Benson oftentimes when
we would talk about race.
Along the way, someone would bring in
the LGBT community and I would say, well,
there's a space for intersectionality
down the road, but let's stick with the
racial component first and for lots of my
teachers, as well as the leaders in the
school that became a place of contention.
Well, I don't want anybody to get
upset that we're talking about race.
Let's talk about all of it because we
want people to know that it's all equally
important and I'm like, yes, we have to
take small chunks and let's start with
race since we serve Black children.
Like, let's start with that.
Not only that we serve students
in the middle of West Baltimore.
That is a very different kind of thing
because Baltimore is broken up from
West Baltimore to East Baltimore.
In if you recall, the Freddie Gray
uprisings in Baltimore, our students were
involved in what that uprising look like.
They.
planned to leave school, I was
a principal at the time, and our
students were in the midst of that.
So we cannot discount race.
As a factor, when we start talking
about the different policies that impact
how we run our school, and also the
idea of institutionalized racism, my
faculty, and some of the leaders in the
school failed to see race as a system.
And wanted to see race
as an individual event.
And so they brought in the DEI space.
And what, I mean, I want to talk
about the sort of the, I don't
even know if it's cost benefit
or pros and cons of DEI, right?
We specifically do anti racism.
In, in, our job, to purposely alleviate
the oppression on communities of color.
To validate that, that we're doing that.
And often in DEI space, it's a nebulous
space of what are we doing exactly?
So what are some of the activities,
initiatives you took on under the umbrella
of DEI when you were leading Green Street.
We created an equity team and the
equity team took months just to come
up with an equity statement just as
statement to say, like, this is what we
believe should happen for our students.
We had book studies.
So, We would have books, there's a
book that everyone reads and Baltimore
called not in my neighborhood.
That's all about redlining and how also
was 1 of the birth places for redlining.
So we would have book studies and
we would do all kinds of activities.
We would have.
Speakers come in we
would look at subgroups.
We didn't have many subgroups
as it correlated with race,
our subgroups look like special
ed 504 social economic status.
So we had subgroups and they would
prefer to just focus on the subgroups.
So everybody's Black.
So we don't have to think about it.
And I'm like, no, we got a couple kids
that aren't Black, you know, and so.
It became easier, I think, to
have the conversation about race,
because you could slide it in and
people were quick to slide back out.
So it almost is like a spectrum, like, oh,
I'm going to talk about it a little bit.
But if I don't want to talk about it,
because someone gets uncomfortable,
I can slide back down to another
aspect of this umbrella of DEI.
So.
In some spaces, I believe it was.
A cop out for some people not to talk
about race, but in other spaces, I
do see value in early career people.
So I will have early career
people who had a group of teachers
that were from the Midwest.
And talking about D or anything like
that, like, what are you talking about?
Like, this is not a real thing.
They didn't connect in any
kind of way to to this idea.
And they just felt like
being a white person
or a person who came from
a certain background.
I am coming into this space
because I can make a difference.
Not we can make a difference,
but I can make a difference.
Almost like a savior complex.
So DEI was a comfortable
space for those people.
But when it was time to transition to
anti racism, it became a bigger problem.
Yeah, because we have to center the
conversation around race, right?
And
DEI is another iteration of keeping
us at the surface level where we,
we want to push more towards, let's,
let's just make us better people.
Let's have a
book setting and no more.
Let's have a comfortable
conversation amongst adults.
And it almost seems like, oh, actually, in
reality, the children are an afterthought.
Like, there's no thought in
terms of how our actions and our
beliefs Going to actually change
and affect student outcomes.
And so if you had to go, so now
you've been, you've been in with
the organization for a while, you've
coached lots and lots of leaders.
Like if you go go back to the Dr.
Harden Lindsay first becoming
principal of green street academy in
your first three years, what would
you have done coached yourself?
To do differently.
well, 1st of all, I would not have so
as I can remember as a very early on
principle, I would allow my leadership
team to make certain decisions because
I wanted to create collaboration.
I wanted them to feel like
we had to come to consensus.
And I wouldn't do that when
it comes to answer racism.
I don't really care that you
don't want to do this right now.
And it's not a priority.
We serve Black kids.
We can see what the numbers are.
You guys have.
Another thing that I would have did is
taken a step back, my team would have
been comprised of different people.
So I must admit Dr.
Benson that my team consisted
of all white men for 5 years.
So I was the principal.
My assistant principals were white men.
My deans were both white men.
So, it was just me and 4 white men
and whenever there was an issue
that will come up with race, Dr.
Benson, something that I regret that
I did was I was stepping to save them.
So, for example, if something would
happen with a parent, let's just say,
and the parent is like, yes, because
this assistant principal is racist.
He made a racist remark, or this teacher
did something and if it had anything to
do with race, I automatically stepped in.
And took it on versus raising
their capacity to deal with
issues that center around race.
So, I did not, build capacity in that way.
I took it on myself because I
was the only person of color.
So I felt like I had to carry that.
And over time, Dr.
Benson, it became heavy.
So two things I would do.
The first thing is I would have
my leadership team all have a map.
Let's talk about it.
Let's talk about race explicitly
because you're all white men and
you're working with Black kids.
Let's talk about it.
What could possibly happen?
You know, what are some of your thoughts?
I would take them through that process
and I would have us all make an ITC map.
Now, it would have been easy
for me to coach them because I
would say I already, they have
individual meetings with me already.
But now I'm going to specifically take
30 minutes of this time and talk about
your and what's coming up for you.
I will have done that as well as I would
not have shielded them from racial issues.
And I did.
And I'll tell you 1 pitfall 1, big
pitfall when I wasn't there, and I moved
on and was no longer in that space race
became a major issue within that school.
Because I was in a buffer, so
I became there was no buffer.
So I must admit that when I reflect
on who I am as a leader, and some
of the roadblocks that I created
or mental blocks, I created for
myself was assuming that I had to
be the 1 to deal with racial issues.
All the time and not building
the capacity of my white.
Yes, yes, that that's very,
it's very poignant sort of
reflection and advice, right?
Because often we think we're doing
good, that we have the depth of
knowledge, we have the racial literacy,
these individuals don't want to
handle it, and plus they're really
uncomfortable and they'd rather not.
And so by stepping forward and Maybe be
more effective at the time at at helping
kids and the community of color were
under developing the capacity of our
counterparts who never get the opportunity
to step into that uncomfortable space.
And you mentioned the IT ITC process.
That's the immunity to change process
comes from an organization
called Mind called Mindset work.
Out of
Cambridge.
Now we're not going to give away the
secret sauce, but we do incorporate
that very much so into our model
to help individuals tap into their
capacity to push forward change and
locate the fear they have to overcome
before becoming more effective.
And so thinking about your transition
from executive, you know, Executive
director leading the school.
That was your life.
That was your career for a very
long time into the role of coach of
coaches at this point, but still doing
a fair amount of coaching as well.
Let's just talk about
the experience, right?
Because I have stuff to share as well.
So what are some of like your joys
you see about doing this work?
Well, one, what's the
power of coaching, right?
Because often folks, you know, especially
in the DEI space, they might learn a
lot, read a lot, I want to do something,
but then go back into their building
or schoolhouse and not know what to do.
So, let's talk about the power of
coaching, why having an anti-racist
leadership coach is so important.
Why is it so important in
your, in your perspective?
From my perspective, having a coach
specifically on the anti racist arm is
extremely important because it reminds
everyone that we have all ingested white
supremacy, like we can't run from it.
So we've all been a part of systems.
That have structures that exude
racist practices, and most, I would
say 99 percent of every single person
that I've met with will openly say,
yes, this system seems unfair now
what they're going to do about it.
That's a total different
a different conversation.
Dr.
Benson, but the humanistic side of.
Acknowledging that race.
plays a major part in some of the
disparities that we see across our
nation to me is half the battle.
So getting someone to acknowledge
that in a very human way, also the
power of anti-racism coaching is that
you can help people along by saying,
these are things I've done that help.
The racism persists, so just because
I'm a person of color does not mean that
I have not had a hand and, the racism,
the structures that I've been a part of
these systems, there were times where
I knew this, this decision was not a
decision that directly benefited kids
of color, but I went along with it.
So, being able to.
Directly say to school leaders
that we all been there.
Now, what is half the battle in many
cases, people are afraid and almost
guilt, feel guilty or shameful that
they have participated in these
systems or structures, or they've
been a part of some of that movement.
And so.
I love getting adults to take action
to kind of peel back the onion or
lack of a better word to say, like,
oh, this and this thing happened.
And I also didn't say that.
And so what I always tell all my co
cheese is that while we're going to
be using this process, we also want to
constantly think about missed opportunity.
Because there'll be miss
opportunities along the way.
So how do I hold myself accountable as
a school leader for acknowledging that.
Whatever subgroup or the students
of color, how do I hold myself
accountable for their academic progress?
It's not enough for adults to just
take action if we're not measuring
it back to student outcomes.
So that's the work to me.
That's the work.
Awesome.
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, and that's the part of
coaching I find most important as well.
And I currently have a coach in my,
even as a consultant, I still have
a coach to do the work that I do.
So the power of coaching, because as
a part of our model, for those who
don't know, is that we have the first
10 hours is very intense learning.
All right, reading, learning, discussion
building the racial literacy around
what it means to lead for anti racism.
And after that, folks come out of the
session like really pumped and ready
to go and ready to rock and roll.
But in most of the cases, when folks
go back into the building, they're out
of the safe space where we discussed
building the capacity to do the work.
And they're isolated in their
building with others who haven't
gone through the institute.
The regression to the mean
is often almost instant.
Like, oh, this is scary.
We're not here in a safe place.
Group learning space.
I'm not in my building and I'm alone
and my literacy is up here, but but yet,
you know, I don't know where others are.
And so that part of the coach should
come in and say, well, remember what
you learned, remember what we planned.
And so we have, we pair individuals that
have come out of the learning process
with four and a half months of coaching
to get to build a dexterity
to actually do the work.
And so can you talk about some of
the joys and challenges of coaching?
I want to share as well,
but I want you to start.
So let's start with some of the The
joys that you have, you could tell
a particular story or just something
that you feel that is very powerful in
your time during your time as a coach.
What are some of the joys of
doing this work as a coach?
I think one of the major joys of doing the
work is when the work becomes infectious.
So for example, I'm working with a
superintendent, let's just say, and
our conversations are confidential.
So what we're talking about in terms
of their own learning goals and how
they're impacting the work, I'm not
going to share with maybe the assistant
suit that I'm also coaching, but Point
of joy is when they say, we all come to
the conclusion that this is not working.
Can we talk about how
we can take some action?
What does that look like?
I feel like our district is not doing
due justice by this group of students.
Can we focus specifically on them?
That brings me joy because
what it tells me is just like
a cold infection can be good.
So now, you know, you have this
robust group of people that want to
do something, but they also understand
that in order to move their district,
they individually have to do the work.
And so that is my favorite part.
When coach, when coaches
start taking accountability.
For student outcomes, and
they change their language.
So, the language is no longer these
students aren't making progress.
The language becomes I have not equipped
my teachers with what they need in
order to move student achievement
in a way that's reflective at the.
For the scores, or for the, the MSA,
or whatever that statewide test is
that sometimes to keep their jobs,
superintendents are looking at.
And so they change their language where
language is no longer a blame language.
Of blaming students, but it's
more about accountability.
We need to do something.
The adults need to do something
and we are responsible.
For moving them, and I can think of 1
person we work with in Massachusetts
who want she was very flat.
And then 1 day, I don't know
what happened or what she drank.
But the next day, when I met with her,
she was fired up and she said, you know,
I had the ability to influence others.
And I have not been doing that.
So if I take responsibility for
what influence looks like, as it
relates to this subgroup of students
of color, we can see a difference.
And I think and Dr Benson,
you probably have an idea of
the group.
I'm talking about.
We saw different.
We saw different people at the end
where, they could openly speak about
race, they could openly speak about
the missteps of the district as well
as the structures that were in place.
And this idea of saying something's
wrong with this group of students.
It's changed totally where
they were like, well, we never
set them up to be successful.
Let's start with that.
And that is what brings me a lot of joy
because the adults are taking action.
Absolutely.
And that's funny that you brought up
that story because I ran into that
superintendent of that district,
Two days ago.
I was at a conference in Massachusetts,
a wonderful conference, and
I just happened to walk in.
This is part of the joy,
right?
Because when we start out,
we have to wrestle through
it, the discomfort, the fear,
lack of a system, lack of a
collective understanding about how
we aim directly at student outcomes
because we've never done it before.
So a lot of confusion, a lot of fear.
We have to Get through it and
get folks to take little baby
steps, baby steps, baby steps.
And sometimes it never feels
like we're going to get
there.
But we have to keep going.
You have to come back to the table.
I ran into the superintendent and he just
so happened to be explaining our equity
audit process to another superintendent.
And
I just happened to walk up and he's
like, it's the first time I didn't
know he was even going to be there.
He's like, Oh my gosh, it just,
this is what a crazy moment.
I was just explaining
them our work with you.
I'm like, that's awesome.
And so that was great in terms of, like,
spreading good work because they had
done DEI work, the district that he was
talking, done DEI work with no traction.
And then he turned to me and said,
well, you'll be very proud of us,
you know, because we ended our
partnership with them sometime in the,
at the end of last school year, and
it's November now.
It's that, you know, we had our
second data meeting today around
outcomes for our Black students.
And I was like, Oh, look out now.
They had no data systems before.
They had no way of tracking.
They didn't meet.
They didn't say we're going to meet
specifically about our Black students.
That
was not a part of the lexicon or system.
And he told me all about it, right?
Very forthright, very proud.
And, you know, I was like, you
know, you have a proud Papa moment.
I'm not your Papa, but, you know, I'm
like, we worked, we worked through it.
We did.
Yay.
You know, I'm so happy that They had taken
it and become a part of their culture.
that is the joy, you know, of coaching.
So let's talk about
some of the challenges.
Like what,
what are some of the challenges?
Because we carry a lot, you know, in this
work and, you know, just coach, you know,
some people, Oh, you're just a coach.
You talk with folks for
an hour every other week.
It can't be that much, but
there are challenges here.
There are real challenges and
we put our heart and soul into
changes on behalf of kids.
So what are some of the challenges
that you've experienced?
I'll start by saying one of the
biggest challenges to me is people
who say they don't see race.
That, that is a big challenge because
the truth of it is that when I, what I'll
have them do is say, well, describe me.
They're going to eventually say
Black and so, you know, I, I say to
them, do you think that while this
may not the fact that I'm Black
may not have an impact on you.
But would you agree that someone
might see me and say, oh, this is a
Black woman and have some thoughts.
And you'll still have people
that say, no, no, no, I haven't
experienced something like that.
Another piece.
That's really.
Challenging and I have this 1 and
another 1, the next piece that's
really challenging is that we have to
be okay with understanding that some
people are okay with racist structures.
And we want to work to get them
to change their mindsets and
some people will come in and say,
I'm doing this work because Dr.
Benson said I had to, but our
structures are not racist.
And I am a good person, so this
good/bad binary racist is, is, you know.
It's definitely counterproductive to
our work, assuming that race is just
an individual person or individual
event, not looking at the higher order
institutional racism that impacts housing
and education and health care disparities.
And so getting someone to the
other side to help them to see that
sometimes is a challenge and it
takes longer than you would like.
Because by the time you get them to the
other side, some of your time is up and
you take so long to get there and their
mindset and their mental blocks won't
allow them to get to the place where
they're looking at structures directly for
students and how they can change practice.
So that is tough.
Last but not least, I would say
personally, the biggest challenge for me.
Is people who have been negatively
impacted by the structure and also working
in the same way to change the structure.
So what I mean by that is most
times people of color who are
working in white spaces to, because
we need to see that the table.
That's the best way to make change,
but become tired of carrying that
burden of always being the person
of color that has to speak up.
That is a challenge because,
you know, in order to do the
work, you have to be resistant.
I mean, you have to be, I'm
sorry, you have to be resilient.
And so, because you need to be
resilient to do the work, oftentimes
you'll meet people of color
that really want to see change.
Like, they are dedicated to change,
but because they've experienced so many
roadblocks and so many demotions and
so many reprimands about speaking up.
That it becomes a burden for them.
And so I think that is like one of the
biggest challenges carrying that burden
burden while being impacted by the system.
You're working to correct.
That is tough and heavy work.
And we absorb that by proxy, right?
Like a lot of the leaders of color we
talked to have been in the fight for,
you know, years, if not decades and
have been on the, on the receiving end
of very explicit sort of professional
racism or structural racism and where
they've been targeted because they were
doing this work.
And so to absorb that as a coach
and still try to inspire folks
to move forward, despite in a
different way, it's tough, you know,
and the challenge for me as well as I,
is that, you know, I absorb all of the
emotions, the feelings, the passions
of my leaders, regardless of
their color, who pushed the work
forward And I care deeply about
their success and also understand
that it is psychologically heavy
because of who you are as a leader to lead
the work, you know, regardless of color.
I coach a lot of white men, a lot
of white women, a lot of people of
color, you know, Black women, Latino
women people come at it with their own
identity and the struggles are different.
In terms of the fears and the real worries
around it and absorbing that as a coach
and caring so much is that I have to
hold that it's, we have a leader who's
experiencing the stress, but at the same
time, these kids are under oppression and
it's also your responsibility to do it.
So playing that balance, you know,
you know, towing that line and
having that balance where we're not
pushing too hard, but hard enough
that they can make change for kids.
That's the challenge.
So let's talk about some traps and
barriers just for the listeners
who wanna engage this work.
Maybe haven't been with us, but
just, just some advice about,
I got three traps and barriers.
So I want you to, to describe,
so I'm gonna shoot it at you.
We haven't talked about this previously
about a barrier, right?
And I want to talk through
the antidote, right?
So, because we experience this all
the time, when it comes to folks
who come to this work, they come
to us in whatever way we try to.
Do some unlearning to then
learn a more effective way.
So one trap we have, we have that
we see all the time is relying
solely on technical solutions.
And Ron, it comes from the
book from Ron Heifetz, Adaptive
Leadership Technical Solutions.
And so if you were to explain, you know,
what a technical solution is and why
that is such a barrier when folks just
want to rely on that technical solution.
Sure.
So I'm thinking of a specific example that
I'm working through now with a coachee
where we are working in a school that has
a subgroup of English language learners.
Who are not making progress at the rate
that the district would like to see.
There's an opportunity gap between the
EL students and their white peers, right?
And instead, a technical solution that
the school leader came up with was
like, Oh, well, everyone who's in the
lowest class gets this intervention.
So I'm like, oh, everyone gets it.
Yeah, because we don't
have a data cycle at all.
So if we just track them, it'll be okay.
And so I said, well, how long have
you been a school leader there?
Let's say the person says 5 years.
So, have this group of students
make any progress in 5 years?
And let's say the answer to that is no.
What is the adaptive challenge?
Why?
We haven't figured out that.
We need to move these students.
Oftentimes I'm thinking of this
particular group in particular.
It's because 87 of the school
is making great progress.
So, the 13 doesn't seem as
relevant for that school leader.
That is an adaptive challenge.
That is a mindset issue.
So, we talked through, like, is it
that we're forgetting some kids?
Is it that some kids education is more
valuable than other, like, what, what
are we, like, what are we really saying
to kids if we've been in that school?
And I, and for that particular
example, it's a 3 year gap.
But we know that 3 years is a long
time to not make significant progress
and to not be on level and there
to be no interventions in place.
So, the technical solution is, let's
just work with the lowest class, even
though in the lowest class, when I
say lowest mean, lowest performing
class, everyone in that class.
Oh, you're going to love this, it's
not low academically performing.
Some of them have behavior.
So anyone that doesn't fit
your mold goes into this class.
Let's talk about that.
That is an adaptive issue because
your structure is set up that way.
And these are the practices
that are in place within your
institution that you lead.
What does that say about you as a leader?
That is the depth of challenge
that nobody wants to look at.
So I always tell them it forces
you to pick that mirror up
and really look in the mirror.
Because it doesn't matter
what you say to me.
All that matters is your actions.
Your actions will tell me
what kind of leader you are.
So if you put all of these particular
students in this class, whether they're
lower performing academically or not, they
just don't fit into this mold of your 87%.
What does that really say about
what's happening at your school?
That is the adaptive side.
Absolutely.
And we see this a lot.
Let's just make a class, a holding space.
For these kids, right?
Let's put them in this class as
a technical, technical, meaning
like we're just gonna do something
and put someone somewhere with
not a lot of thought around.
All right, what's the structure?
How's this going to affect their
other academic academics
in the other classes?
Why are they not performing
in the first place?
We're not going down the rabbit
hole to look at their trajectory.
For say they're in 7th grade, in 6th
grade, 5th grade, 4th grade, where
do they, where do we fail them to
the fact that they're not proficient?
Looking back in the history, the locate
points, maybe it's a particular classroom,
maybe it's a particular curriculum, who
knows what it is, but it's often a point
in time where the students, a student
starts to not perform very well in school.
And the adaptive questions,
is what during this pipeline
process, where do we fail them?
So it can be appropriate in terms of
making solutions within the, within the
the mainstream education classroom, right?
Because this is only one class
here for probably one period.
And that people often expect, you
know, mainstream teachers expect
this period to fix these kids and
then come back and be model students.
And so the adaptive question is first,
as you say, why, why is it okay with us?
You know, why is it not a fiber on fire?
Why is not everyone concerned?
Why is it not a conversation at every
PLC about why these students are failing
and everyone looking into what we need to
do collectively to make sure these kids
who are identified by race and language
are constantly failing in our schools?
And then how do we create a structure
within the mainstream so we don't
continue to fail these kids?
Because if we don't Fix the structure.
At the very end, we'll always have
the opportunity to make this class
over here, because that's reactive
instead of being proactive.
So the antidote is being more
proactive and having the adaptive
conversation around why is this okay?
Because
it's not, but according
to our actions, it is.
So another,
another barrier that we see, this is
one that we see in a lot of school
districts, is a lack of granular
Understanding of the racial equity issue.
So no data infrastructure,
no data analysis.
Let's I think, and I feel this is a
problem and let's implement a solution.
So what is, can you describe that
barrier that we see more often than not?
think in many cases, Dr.
Benson, and this is probably
a very unpopular opinion.
So let me say that before
I open up my mouth.
I think that in many, in many cases,
school leaders don't want to know
I can't fix what I don't know.
So the reason that there's no real
data structure in place is because I.
I can guess what I believe is happening
and that that model has continued to
oppress certain groups of students.
So I'm not even going to go in and I'll
give the classic example of this is I'm
going to give the newest teacher the
lowest academic the lowest academically
performing students and I know she's
brand new or he's brand new and he
doesn't really know what he's doing.
So he can't do any harm.
I'm not going to give him the
highest academics academically
performing students.
So we know.
And now brains that there's a
disconnect because we intentionally,
and this is a common practice.
Dr.
Benson with that new teacher is going
to get these students who are the lowest
performance students, even though they
are not strong in their pedagogy, they
are coming from working at Walmart.
Let's just say, or they're 20
years old, fresh out of college.
I'm going to give you these students who
I already know are 2 to 3 years behind.
And so just questioning as especially as
school leaders, the why becomes offensive.
So, you're really going to ask me, how
come I make this decision or you're
really going to ask me about the data.
And so oftentimes they don't have
data data structures in place because
they really don't want to know.
They prefer to pretend not to know,
but it's very evident in their
actions that they have an idea.
Of what's going on and this idea of loss.
So I talked to so many school leaders
and I do understand that we're at
a different place after Colvin.
I know that there's a national, a
national, a national teacher shortage.
I understand that, but they
will make decisions that are.
Best for adults, not even
considering students.
So, because you are an
amazing teacher, Dr.
Benson, I'm going to give you the
highest performing students because I
don't want to lose you and I don't want
you to be upset instead of switching
that to say, I'm going to give you
because you are such an amazing teacher.
I'm going to give you our lowest
performing students because I trust you.
To move the needle with them.
So it's this idea of they don't trust,
you know, there there's a lack of
trust across systems, but it starts
with the school leader and, you
know, about it because it's linked.
To their actions, and their
lack of data, or let this is
another piece to talk about.
Dr.
Benson, they had the data and they
don't want to want to show it to anyone.
Or I'm thinking of a group that we
were talking about, maybe a couple
of years ago, and I mean, a couple
of weeks ago and they're like,
well, who's going to get this data.
Well, who, who owns the data?
Well, what are you going
to do with the data?
And it's kind of like, no, no, no, no.
Are you using the data
to inform instruction?
Do you have this data?
And I think, you know, that has become,
I would say just the way in which
people operate in order to hide their
deficiencies, adult deficiencies.
Right, and also, I think there's also
a sincere lack of know how, because I
remember in my master's program, we didn't
have a single class on data analysis.
Even in my doctoral program, a single
class undergrad, a single class on how to
be a data, data driven and data informed.
We knew the language when we
were leaders, like, Oh, yeah,
I make data driven decisions.
I can look at data and describe it, right?
We know all the talk.
But when you look under under the rug
or behind the curtain, you see that
most folks to have a genuine lack
of ability to Look at granular data,
collect it and use it to inform, inform
instruction, inform school practices.
And so the antidote is to spend some time
and admit that if you don't, if there's
no capacity, there is no capacity and
reach out for support, you know, and
be, be honest and have the humility.
Say we're making, I think, and I feel
decisions and I believe decisions
based on opinion in what people
think, not on anything that is real.
And this especially happens a lot when it
comes to uses of exclusionary discipline.
Folks know they suspended
Black and brown kids a lot, but
we don't know exactly what's
happening, you know.
But when you crunch the data, and
often what we find is when we crunch
the data, we'll discover that it's
probably 20 to 25 percent of the
teachers in the building that are
writing 70 percent of the referrals.
And that gives us then A focus, right?
Not to be punitive with the instructions,
but to offer the teachers tier two
support around how do you form a
classroom manager plans that you're
not relying on writing referrals
every day for the same kids, right?
But as you say, you know, once
we have the data and then we can
focus in on where we need to do our
interventions, then it becomes real.
And so I could see why a leader
wouldn't want to know because
then you're accountable.
for then making things better because you
know the data in the improvement cycle.
So the last thing I wanted to talk
about, and I think you remember the
article that, I think we read it during,
during the institute when you were
training, the performative anti-racism
Oh, Lord
Yes, yes.
And this is often where people
come in to the institute having
a history of performative
anti-racism as their DEI work.
So could you talk a little bit about
that, that that barrier and trap?
I'm the performative anti-racism
work forces adults to believe if they
if adults do more things or engage
in more activities, then hopefully
it'll have an impact on students.
There's no measurement.
There's no line.
From the actions to student
outcomes for a lack of better words.
I have someone I'm working with that.
I always say there's no straight line
from performance or perfection to success.
And so this idea, the
more that I do things.
The hope is that things will
become better for our students.
And so instead of looking at racism
as a social construct and looking at
it as a space where there's history
behind it, it was created for Black and
brown students not to be successful.
We don't want to look at it from that way.
I just want to do something.
I want to do something right now too.
So.
If you're talking to me about race,
I don't have time to digest it
or even look at my own ways that
I've been complicit in the system.
I just want to do something.
So, let's do the book study.
Yes.
Let's find a presenter, bring them in
so that my teachers can check off this
box to say that they've heard this
perspective a new wave that I'm seeing.
Dr.
Benson.
Is these affinity groups, so let's
create a Black affinity group.
We're going to bring all of the Black
people together and we have no plan
for how we're going to support when
they talk about the trauma or when they
talk about their experiences, but we
will be able to check off a box and
said, we created a safe space for you.
But was it really safe?
Or was it another example of
performative anti-racist practices?
Another big thing that some
schools are doing is, is these
focus groups for students.
Not doing anything with the groups.
I can, I'm meeting with someone right now
who told me, yes, we had a focus group.
I said, who ran the focus group?
Oh, a consultant.
So then they just left.
Yes.
They're going to send me the notes,
you know, in the next few weeks.
So, you know, that it is
November, let's start with that.
So we are just thinking about what we're
doing in November and then by Christmas.
They'll send you the notes and then
you're going to bring it back to you.
These are all things just to say that
you're doing something, but has no
direct impact on student outcomes.
And actually, I told the person it's
actually harmful because what you're
doing is you're pulling students from
their social setting to do something
that adults want them to do without
even having the dignity or the
humanistic side of you as a leader.
To sit in to say that it's
important, or to say, we're
going to do something with this.
And so what you're saying to
people of color when you do that
is I don't really care about this.
But I did something I have my
time is better spent somewhere
else And that is hurtful that can
be really harmful and hurtful.
So we have to be careful
because that performative anti
anti-racist those practices can
really hurt kids in long term.
It's a form of gaslighting.
You know, let's say that
we're committed to it.
We're going to do something.
Let's have a book study, right?
We're committed to it.
Let's do something.
Let's have an affinity group
or student focus group, right?
To as a foray to say we care, but
there's no plan for in terms of how
it's actually going to impact students,
that's right?
Yes.
to that is to start
with the problem first.
Like what problem are we
seeking to solve first, right?
It's just like backwards mapping
or understanding by design, is that
we start with the problem first.
What is the problem in terms of student
outcomes that we're trying to address?
Is it, you know, the
campus racial climate?
Do students not feel
welcome in the building?
Are there racial slurs?
Are they feeling, are they ostracized?
Is it student performance gaps in,
gaps in outcome, academic outcomes?
Is it over-representation
in special education?
These are all very real phenomena
that exist in school districts
Let me start with that first.
And then say, all right, so how do we
track back to And use the data in terms of
understanding why the phenomenon exists.
Then to say, how are we going to
intervene in a very specific way
to then change the adult practice
to then impact the outcomes.
Then comes professional
development to change the adult
actions to then reach results.
But the we school districts often in
schools end up in this performative
space just go right to action.
All right, we feel bad.
That we want to do
something right to action.
And then after the actions done, what
we're supposed to do with that again.
Oh, no one remembers, right?
Because there's no connection
to student outcome.
So the antidote is to start
with the problem first.
So the last thing I want, want to ask
you about is just advice, because in
this work, you've been in with us, you've
been in education for a long, long time.
And we've been together in the
Antiracism Leadership Institute
for together for over two years.
And so what advice do you have?
For leaders outside of like,
come to the shop, right?
If you're experiencing frustration
and you're not making, make
a movement, come on in y'all.
We're, we're here.
But outside of that, what advice would
you have for folks listening to this
podcast who haven't had the opportunity
to work with us to really enhance their
capacity to lead for racial equity?
I would say 1st, the 1st.
Piece of advice I would have for them,
of course, has come to Institute.
We will hook you up.
But if you, for whatever reason,
you're not in a space, it's November.
You're not in a space to
come to Institute right now.
What can I do tomorrow that will
have an impact on my students?
The 1st thing I would
say is look at your data.
And I would say,
look at data in 3 buckets.
Dr.
Benson, I would say we would look should
look at attendance.
Behavior or discipline,
however, you describe that and academics
to see where students are and
if there are in fact gaps.
So, instead of guessing what your school
needs or guessing where students are
making progress or not sitting down and
really, really looking at where you are
academically behaviorally and attendant
and seeing how it could impact the other.
That is what that and
that's going to take time, but you have
to be okay with at least knowing the data.
Sometimes Dr.
Benson, I, when we've worked
with different, with different
organizations, something that has
come up that I always go back to that.
You probably taught me
maybe my 1st, 2 to 3 months.
Is sometimes it's somebody in the district
that already has this information.
Did you ask them?
And I know that sounds very, like,
very, like, surface level, but in many
cases, we've been working with some
districts that are very well resourced.
There's already someone who has the data.
Have you gone about asking
for it at a very low level?
And then the 2nd thing that I
would say, any school leader
needs to wrestle with is, are you
committed to looking at the work?
Because if you are not committed, you
are gaslighting and just going around
your school, creating more havok and who
wants to work with a leader that just
creates a lot of havok You need to decide.
That you really want to lead
for anti-racism and understand
that it is not going to be easy.
So, some days will be amazing and
some days will not be, but are
you truly committed to the work?
Those are the 2 pieces.
So your data piece do just have
somebody that already does that.
Let's start with that.
If not, can you get your data pieces so
that you can at least before you even
give it and this is something that is
happening with a couple of our leaders.
Now, they have given the data to other
people, but they don't know the data.
As the leader, you need to know the
data and then are you committed?
Those are the 2 pieces.
Dr.
Hart and Lindsay, this has been wonderful.
Yes, I'll leave with that.
Two things.
Look at your attendance.
Look at your conduct.
Look at your achievement data, right?
The three legs of the stool.
Look at your academic data.
Know it.
Know what's going on in
your school building.
Take a step back.
You're at the table
trying to make decisions.
You don't know your data.
Put the brakes on.
And let's spend this time that
we're meeting looking at our
data and understanding what
is happening in our building.
And the secondly is checking our
commitment, and commitment to actual
progress rather than performance.
And if we're having waivers in our
commitment, and we really don't
have the wherewithal and dexterity.
Find someone to support you and build in
your, your wherewithal to be committed.
Dr.
Hardin Lindsay, this has been wonderful
having this conversation with you.
We talk all the time.
We meet every week, right?
But we're having this conversation in
front of y'all just to get into our
heads about our time in this work.
And it's been a pleasure
and I appreciate you.
Thank you for coming on today.
Thank you for having me.
Can't wait to come back or
hear some other session.