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Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field. This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have that these lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back rockers.
I've got Jane Strong here from the EQU
Effect in Connecticut in the USA and
those of you who know the work that we
do with the program, which is, uh, a
ground-based program, um, where we use
the principles of the old masters in hand
long reigning and lunging to work with
veterans, um, people with trauma, adult
autism, and so on, helping them to sort
of rebuild horses as part of a therapy.
Those of you who know that, um, will be
very excited by what Jane does because
she's working also with veterans and
first responders who I feel are a
massively underserved, uh, population.
They're the ones out there
actually doing it all the time.
Um, as you know, veterans, you might
or may not, might not have seen combat.
Just because you're a veteran
doesn't mean you've seen combat.
If you've seen combat, it doesn't
necessarily follow that you have
taken a wound or watched your friend
die or come out of it with the same
trauma that somebody who was in the
frontline with the bayonets Mike.
There's all kinds of ways, but what we
can be sure of is that, um, that with
the first responders in our community,
that it's relentless for them that the
tour of duty never ends and the threats
to life and all of that never end.
Um, and the stress never ends.
It just goes on for 30,
40 years or whatever.
So I was really intrigued when, um,
Jane popped up, um, and we became
aware of her and I want to her to
share what she does and how she does
it and what can we learn from that.
Alright, so Jane, thank
you for coming on the show.
Why do you do this?
What's the EQU effect and what does it do?
Jane Strong: Well, we serve,
we're a nonprofit that serves
first we serve veterans.
That was our first go at this
because, um, we saw the statistic.
My partner David and I saw the
statistic in 2008 of 22 suicides a
day and deep inside of me, I just
felt like there was more to it than.
These, those veterans with
PTSD, I felt like there was a
whole lot more to the story.
And I also felt that horses could help
where talk therapy, sitting in a situation
where you've got a person looking at you
and asking you to talk about things, I
just had this sense that the, that the
experience of being in harm's way and
coming home and trying to deal with not
just what happened over there, wherever
there was, but also the transition from
military to civilian life is a huge issue.
I don't care what they did.
Mm-hmm.
You know, that transition where you
go from somebody tells you what to
wear, to eat, when to get up, when to
exercise, and you don't have a choice.
It's not like, would you
like to run up that hill?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: You know, it's,
uh, you're gonna do this.
And so I sort of intuitively knew that.
And I don't know why exactly except I
had read Sebastian Young's book Tribe,
which was an extraordinary description
of what happens when people go from a
community of interdependence to you're on
your own and you go home to your family
and they have no idea what you're talking
about and they don't really wanna know.
You know, they don't really want
to know what you saw or did.
So I had this sense that a lot of
this was really transition stress and
that, that talking about it wasn't
where it lives, that it lives in
the body and the nervous system and
the sensory based take on things.
Um, so, so we, David, my partner
and I started to talk to the
VA about this great idea.
We had to bring vets to our place
and, you know, work with them.
And it took us a mere four years to
talk to them into it because, uh,
they're, they're kind of risk averse.
I don't know if you know that,
but they're kind of risk averse.
And so we just kept talking and we
kept going and going to meetings and
talking and finally got a meeting,
actually a bunch of art therapists
and they were like, this is cool.
You know, 'cause it is kind of,
you know, more experiential, it's
more right hemisphere dom, you
know, it is a little more creative
than sitting and talking with the,
trying to make sense out of things.
So they sent some vets out and they were
blown away by the fact that not only
was the experience good for them to work
with the horses and that was the other
thing we knew that they, with the veteran
community, any military culture, same
with first responders, it's a due culture.
They do stuff, they
don't just stand around.
So we created some exercises for
them to do that were based on real
horsemanship skills, um, and talk,
talk to them about how horses operate
first to build some resonance.
Um, and then, then had them make a
connection with the horses, get their
hands on 'em, do that nice HeartMath stuff
of in training to the horse's heart rate
and work with vulnerability around that.
Just respecting whatever came up and then
move them into action with the horses,
um, you know, in a collaborative way.
So that's, that's what we did.
But it, it took us a while, obviously
to get the VA to agree, and then
once they did, they saw that when
these vets came home, they were able
to sit down and talk about what was
going on with them and move forward.
And so our mission is really based
on centered around relationships,
healthy, authentic relationships
in real life at home and work.
So that's, that's sort of
what we're after with them.
And we set up exercises, and I'm very
much looking forward just to doing
more of your stuff where we make it
more complex and more skill-based,
you know, and more, you know, just a,
just a deeper dive into what can you
really do that's good for the horses.
Um mm-hmm.
And that's, so that's where we, where
we started and then we added first
responders who, you're right about them.
You know, they are on the line every day.
They have no idea what
they're gonna run into.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Jane Strong: And they're alone.
They're, a lot of times they're alone.
They're not with a unit.
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's
a very interesting, um,
thing I've always feel when
people get into working with a
population that they are not necess
necessarily necessarily themselves.
My brain are part of, um, you do or
you don't have a military background
or a first responders background?
Jane Strong: No, I had my, my
father was in World War ii,
but he was in the Pentagon.
Um, my brother was, went to West
Point and was stationed in Stuttgart
after that, but in peace time.
So I know the rigidity.
I kind of get that, but I did not,
I I was one of those people who,
when the, the mil, when the, um,
the military people came home from
Vietnam, I was one of those people who
conflated the war with the Warrior, so,
Rupert Isaacson: oh yes.
Well, you were younger then, and you
know, that's forgivable and it was an
illegal war and, um, but it wasn't the
fault of the poor bus that got drafted.
No, absolutely.
Um, however.
You know, you could have, if, if you were
feeling a desire to work with a, you know,
a special needs community of one kind
or another, you could have gone autism,
you could have gone a number of ways.
And I'm always intrigued at as to why
people get into what they get into.
So, for example, as you know, with
me, um, I wasn't in any way interested
in working in this field at all.
I had no such dreams.
Um, but I had a son who needed me and
you've met him and, um, through hook
and by crook, the horses were away.
And, um, luckily I had the
skills so I could follow.
And then I realized, oh, I see.
That's why I've acquired these
skills so that clearly I can do this.
Um, and then it turned
out to be replicable.
So then I felt, I felt a sort of
obligation to make it available for other
parents in my position because it worked.
But you know, you didn't have have that
kind of gun to your head that I did.
So why did you get involved?
What made you, and why did you
pick veterans particularly, what
were you doing before, what was
your life leading up to this?
Jane Strong: I was, um, that's a good
question because people, you know, a lot
of times people wanna, they wanna think
or they believe that you have to have that
in order to relate to this population.
Um, but my feeling is if someone
is a veteran, that's fine, but
they have to have done some work.
They have to be out of the woods a bit.
Mm-hmm.
You know, to be able to serve anyone
else, you have to walk the walk
before you can do anything like that.
And so, um, I think for me, what
I was doing before was, um, I
was an ethnographic researcher
for, uh, an independent person
who did market research, and my
specialty was ethnographic research.
So I think in a broad sense, I think
me walking into other cultures with
compassion and curiosity really
helped me to learn about veterans.
And I have the sources
that helped me do that.
I, I knew I had to find out about them.
Who are they?
So, um, I read some books that weren't
about, um, going to, they were about
the experience and the impact of going
to war and, um, they were extremely,
what's the word, compassionate views.
Of the distortions that happen when
you go against your own values.
Mm-hmm.
And, and you do things that in,
in, when these guys come home
or women come home, the things
they're really good at are illegal.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: So that's not a,
that's not an option anymore.
And so to go work at Walmart
or you know, is like, wow.
So
Rupert Isaacson: unless they go work for
Blackwater or, you know, as a private,
Jane Strong: which they do, they do a lot.
And actually a lot of, yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And a lot of the people who are are
first responders are also veterans.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
' Jane Strong: cause it's a skill they have.
So
Rupert Isaacson: when you say you
were an ethnographic researcher,
that's quite a general ish sort
of, can you be more specific?
What did you do?
Who were these, who were
these ethnos that you graphed?
Um, 'cause when, you know, as
you know, I have a background
in human rights, um, in Africa.
So you could say I was an
ethno, uh, act, uh, advocate.
I advocated for a particular
group, an ethnographic group who
happened to be called the COIs,
sun Bushman of the Kalahari.
Um, in order to help them, uh, win land
claims to prove their title to their
ancestral land and get their land back
after having been evicted illegally.
So I know a little bit about
the ethnographic field.
What do you mean when you say that
you were an ethnographic researcher?
Jane Strong: I, um, well, what I did
for a living was I, um, interviewed
people, mostly subcultures, I
would say, within the United States
and some in, in, some in Europe.
So I interviewed, um, I did
a big, and I was working in
the, in the corporate world.
So I did research for, let's say Chrysler.
They wanted to understand Hispanics, and
in to them it's all one group, one blob.
But Cubans are very
different from Mexicans.
They're very different from Puerto Ricans,
they're very different from island people.
And I went into people's homes and sat
with them for, you know, a day and spent
time talking to them about the roads
not taken, or why did they do this,
or how did they, you know, certainly
how they got here, but understanding
the nuances of their particular take
on their lives and their goals and
their, um, their orientation to things.
And of course, the people who
hired me were interested in how
can we sell 'em more products.
But I was interested in who are they and
what, what's their, what makes them tick?
Rupert Isaacson: That's very interesting
because when I was working in the human
rights field, we, one of the things
we did was field teams of lawyers,
and I always trusted the lawyers
more who had worked for the enemy.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Um, if, if a lawyer
had worked for the diamond companies,
if a lawyer had worked for oil and
then had decided to sort of do the
right thing, then I knew that they
knew how the opposition worked.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so I can absolutely see the point
of that when you were going in to talk
to these people, um, okay, you had
to do a job and you were going in, I
presume, wearing it on your sleeve.
I'm working for Chrysler here, you know?
Jane Strong: Oh, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And of course everyone
needs a car, so, I mean, it's not
like you're doing something wrong.
It's not like you're trying
to sell 'em heroin, you know?
Um, although the people
that created heroin thought
that everyone needed heroin.
Jane Strong: Yes.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
heroin, that the people always
think it was an illegal drug.
It wasn't an illegal drug at all.
It was created by Bayer
who are the, um, big German
pharmaceutical company and heroin.
It was given that name because
it was supposed to be the non,
uh, addictive form of laden them.
Another opiate.
And of course it turned out
to be even worse, killed her.
But it was supposed to be the heroin, you
know, that, that saved everybody ho ho.
Um, but you weren't
doing anything like that.
So at the end of the day, to
to, to sell somebody a car is
still, you know, a useful thing.
Mm-hmm.
But when you were sitting and talking
with them, did you find that there were
patterns to how people wanted to you to
understand them when they knew that you
were coming from outside their community?
And the reason I'm asking you to
explain this on this podcast is a lot
of people are gonna be listening to
this who are perhaps starting programs
Jane Strong: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And are coming from a
very compassionate place of saying, I
would like to help this population and
this population over here, but I may or
may not have much understanding of them.
Jane Strong: Mm-hmm.
But
Rupert Isaacson: I want to help 'em.
Jane Strong: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us about Yeah.
Outside the therapeutic context,
maybe give us your, your work with
Hispanic communities, your work with
other subcultures, and talk to us
about the patterns and what can we, as
practitioners of equine assisted stuff
learn from your learning curve there?
Jane Strong: I think, um, I think that
probably what I would say is to, when you
say help, there's, there's a bit of a.
There's a bit of a fixing in there.
Oh, yeah.
And then there's a bit of
investment in the outcome.
Mm-hmm.
Um, there's a bit of
Rupert Isaacson: evangelism.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Yeah.
And there's a bit of I
don't need the help you do.
Right.
And so for me, if I back rewind
the tape back to or further back
in my personal history, is that I
never felt that I was an insider.
I always felt that I was an outsider,
and I felt like I hadn't, as you
described in your book, the Long Ride
Home, which I've started to read, I felt
like I wasn't living my dream, my life.
So I was trying to put together a life
that would allow me to, in, in a way,
live into my outsider view of myself.
But I was very interested in people.
So in a, in a way it was like
understanding these other cultures
helped me to appreciate differences and
appreciate the fact that their lives
are actually fine without me in a way.
They, they're living their lives
and I need to, I need to surrender.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: My values or my views not
values my views in order to understand
them because it became a non-hierarchical.
Lens through which I saw people,
but my own story was I was always
just felt like an outsider.
So it was easy for me to walk into
another culture, probably easier than,
than living in my own homogeneous,
you know, Anglo-Saxon background.
So that was sort of how I landed there.
But I, I truly believe that if we don't
have the idea that we're fixing or better
than, or more together than the people
we're working with, that, you know,
everybody has gifts and liabilities.
I think if we start there and
learn about them without the
spin on the ball of helping them.
Rupert Isaacson: I agree.
Um, obviously, you know, I wanted to
help my son, for example, because he
was clearly suffering, but by the time
horse boy method became a thing, um, I
wasn't in any way looking to cure or stop
my son being autistic because by then
I could see the clear gifts involved.
Um, also, it's who he is, but
there was, there was suffering
that I wanted to help alleviate.
Jane Strong: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And that the suffering
was, was, uh, connected to things, some of
which were to do with the autism sensory
issues, confusion, not understanding, you
know, where your body is in the world,
let alone your place in the world, but.
Some of which didn't have
anything to do with autism at all.
Um, were just to do with, um,
standard unhappiness as you
know, that any human can have.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And, uh, but also,
so what's the opposite of unhappiness?
It's joy.
So I realized that my job was to
provide joy and then when I learned the
neuroscience of joy, it's like, oh yes.
Well that does indeed build the brain.
And we can go into that later.
When you were working with these, I'm,
I'm gonna ask you why you, you felt
like an outsider because I think a lot
of listeners and viewers will have had
that question as you said it, but let's
just put that one for the next thing.
I want you to tell us who a little
bit more about these nuances in the
Hispanic communities, how they taught
you the differences between them.
How did you learn to dance inside
their own systems of prejudice?
Mm-hmm.
Which is something I had to
do in Africa, for example.
You know, you go in there thinking
there's white and there's black
and there's whites against blacks.
And then you realize, ah, dad,
it's way more complex than that.
All sorts of interest in Nissan racism
and with between groups and so on
and, and, and rivalries and so on.
Um, and.
This causes suffering.
And then what other subcultures did you
explore and what did you learn from them?
I just wanna stay with that for a little
bit, because I think anyone who's going
into our field needs to know their people.
Right.
And you did deep dives into
getting to know subgroups of people
before you went into this field.
Jane Strong: Yeah, I, yes.
I think that for me, I, I would
say for anyone is to really respect
the differences, respect them, and,
and appreciate it's, it's a more
than respect, it's appreciate them.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And,
Jane Strong: um, engage with
them on a level playing field.
And I think the way to do that,
the entree to that is genuine
curiosity and compassion.
Um, because, because when we other, well,
we, other, other people we are, I think
by nature or or by definition, we are
diminishing in a, some, in some way or
it's that not good form of tribalism.
Um, there's a mistrust.
There's a
Rupert Isaacson: tribes
that eat each other.
Yes.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
And then, and also I think that
there's a lot of, um, there's a
lot of assumptions that get made.
Because when, because the mind likes
certainty, our minds like certainty.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
And, and when we go in with some kind
of certainty, we're closing some doors.
And I can tell you, fast forward
to my experience now, I learn every
time I work with a group of vets,
what is your experience of this?
Because they're all nuanced,
they're all different, and they're
all genuinely true for them.
Mm-hmm.
And I don't have the
answer for each person.
I just have an ability from my experience
doing this kind of research, and
maybe some of it was sort of innate,
is just a curiosity about people.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and particularly about differences.
And I don't, I can't really tell you
why I'll have to do a reading with,
uh, Denise to find out why I have that.
But I just do, I just have this
son of curiosity about people.
And I feel very incensed when the people
I train to facilitate start to talk
about these broken people or the people
who donate to our organization, those
veterans or, it's just not, it's not the
way I see it, you know, everybody's stuck.
So we're all stuck in different ways.
And, and for me, the, the
way, the way in is to not.
Indulge that not not go there.
Just to see people, see people
as stuck like we all are.
Mm.
We're gonna include you.
We're gonna include the horses, we're
gonna include everybody in this community
here, and we are gonna go somewhere.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So you are sitting there and going back to
your former self, uh, in somebody's room.
In somebody's living room, asking them
questions, which are car related, but you
are totally curious about who they are.
What patterns did you notice
in the Hispanic community?
'cause you mentioned that
you were working there.
First you realized, oh my gosh,
it's so diverse, it's so different.
Mm-hmm.
All these different subgroups, but what
patterns did you notice where you walked
away from the Hispanic communities going,
Hmm, I could use a bit more of that.
Hmm.
I could have a bit of that.
Hmm.
Didn't know about that.
What were the things
Jane Strong: I would say that what
they are all across the board,
they're very family oriented and
they're very community oriented.
In fact.
Mexicans particularly, I
mean, Cubans have a pipeline.
Mm-hmm.
They come into the United States,
not speaking for political reasons,
that's the other piece of it that's
a little different among them.
Mm-hmm.
They come into the United
States for political reasons.
They get poured into a pipeline in Miami,
that's where I was interviewing them.
They get poured into a pipeline where
they can get, somebody gets them a
job, hands, gives them a job where they
can stay speaking Spanish at first.
Then they get taught English.
Then they get moved up into, and
these were all Hispanics by the
way, doing ethnographic research.
You're not just random.
You're choosing, we have specs,
we have people we wanna talk to.
And these were people who were, wanted to
be integrated into the American culture.
They didn't wanna stay ghetto
wise, they didn't wanna do that.
They wanted to be a part of, and they were
gonna buy a car in the next few years.
That was the other one.
So, um, so anyway, so they were,
they come in as in this pipeline,
and then they get a job and then they
get into a higher level of society.
They get educated.
That was their track.
You know, Mexicans tend to come over
one at a time for economic reasons.
Um, Puerto Ricans come in, you
know, kind of in groups, but I
would say it's partly economic and
it's, you know, opportunity based.
Um.
So those were probably the three
main groups that I, that I would
say were distinct from one another.
But I think what I appreciated about them
was how strongly they held their values.
Y you know, and, um, in, in a way
what a model they were for this
communal, um, approach to things.
And one, a funny example would be
that Chrysler makes Jeep, right?
And the image of Jeep at the time was
this lone person at the top of a cliff.
You know, the, the rugged
individual kind of American model
of what freedom is supposed to be
and to a person every Hispanic.
I showed that, 'cause we
showed some concepts for ads.
Every Hispanic was like,
why would I wanna be alone?
Why would I, why would I ever wanna
get in my car by myself and be alone?
And it was really funny.
It was very funny.
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
Jane Strong: You know, and
Rupert Isaacson: that's so interesting.
Jane Strong: Yeah, it was very funny.
And so it was like, okay,
well scratch that one.
You know?
Plus the other thing was that as much as
they, the, the other thing that really
struck me was that they, the women were
inclined to have children to satisfy their
parents, who were usually non-English
speaking people, satisfy their parents,
that they were gonna have a family.
'cause that was important to
have children to the parents.
And so a lot of times the, the, the
mother, the, the wife would have children
while the husband worked, and then the
husband would back take a backseat to
the wife while she got an education
because they were upwardly mobile people.
And they all, to a person had an
idea of owning their own business.
So extremely entrepreneurial, willing
to play the game without the network,
without the good old boy network.
Their, their ticket was education.
So
Rupert Isaacson: they Right.
And they might not have had a good old boy
network, but they did have each other, um
Jane Strong: Right.
But there wasn't the, you
know, the glee club at Harvard.
There wasn't the, the frat boys stuff.
They had, they knew
Rupert Isaacson: they
were not the ruling class.
Yeah.
Jane Strong: Mm-hmm.
They knew they had to do this through
education, and so they would take turns
doing that with an aim to having their
own independence and autonomy through.
In a, in a way against all lots.
I mean, the parents were like,
mm-hmm stay home, mother, stay home.
They were very, they were very
ambivalent in a certain way about
taking the reins in their own lives
and, and, you know, going outside
the, the traditional culture model.
Rupert Isaacson: What's interesting to
me about that is when we started working
in with Horse Boy, which then became
movement method and tech, you know,
three programs out of one program, we
of course were based in Texas, Austin.
And, um, I noticed very quickly that
um, the outcomes for the kids that
we worked with that came outta the
Mexican families were often better,
largely because of this tribal aspect.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Um, and I am Southern
African, born in the uk, but my
entire family is Southern African and
operates very tribally, always have.
So that's second nature to me.
You know, your cousins, you
know, your second cousins, you
know your third cousins, they're
always coming through the house.
And my house now, we always got
two long-term guests right now.
There'll be other, another
ones coming in tonight.
You know, it's just how it always is.
And I know other people who
say, how can you do that?
How can you live like that?
Ru's just got people
coming in all the time.
It's like, 'cause I always live
that way and I can't conceive
really of living any other way.
And it's just a pattern that's formed.
But what happens is, of course,
all these people bring a story and
all these people bring support.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Um.
And I noticed with the Hispanic
communities when I was working in Texas,
that they would rally around each other.
Jane Strong: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Um, so if you
had single moms, for example, and
that was quite frequent, that the
autism mom is a single mom, um, they
would find more community support.
They would be more likely also to
have an abuela, you know, a a it,
at least figure, if not relative.
Um, there would be mechanisms
within the community, like certain
types of clubs like the Riata,
the Mexican rodeo, or the, uh,
stuff around the Cinco de Mayo, uh,
parades, which of course operate
all year, you know, for those
big parties and things like that.
They would, they would belong to these
groups that would then, as you say, look
at someone who clearly needed some help
and organize that help for that person.
Um, babysitting so that
the woman could work.
And I noticed that the outcomes for
Anglo families were only good if they
came from a very high economic bracket.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Because then
they could afford to hire
that level of tribal support
financially if they didn't have it.
Around them as a family thing so that the
middle income, low to middle income white
people tended to have less good outcomes
than the lower income Hispanic people.
And to some degree black families
because there was more community support.
And that, for me was a big takeaway.
It was like, okay, that
makes a lot of sense.
So,
Jane Strong: yeah, I think you're right.
I think you're right.
And I also think that, um, this
whole notion of in a certain way,
um, let's say upwardly mobile.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Jane Strong: Middle class whites
are extremely, like my family
was, was my father was very poor.
He came from Virginia, moved up
north and got a job in the city
because it was during the depression.
And he came north and then it was like,
how can we become independent and, and,
and image driven, that's the other thing.
Very image driven of I don't wanna
go back there, I wanna look good.
And the whole thing was to be homogeneous.
It was to fit in.
Which is another thing, another thing
that I think causes back to the vets
and for, they want, how do they fit in?
Mm-hmm.
When, what do they have to give up
to fit in with civilian culture?
And I think that's a big,
that's a big loss of, of, uh,
parts of ourselves in order to.
Feel like we belong, but fitting
in is different from belonging.
Rupert Isaacson: It is, and I'm just,
as you say that, I'm wondering, um,
there's a chunk of your life I want to
go to before we dive into the EQU effect.
But, um,
do you find now that with the first
responders and the veterans groups
that you work with, if they're
coming out of Hispanic communities,
are they also doing better because
they don't need to have to fit in?
Perhaps there is an existing network.
Um, is it again, does it tend to be the
Anglos who seem to be the most lost?
Jane Strong: I never thought of
it that way, but yes, I would say
there's this sort of, this sort of,
what I would say the part, and, and
I agree with you that it's not just
a toxic masculine, there's, there is
definitely toxic feminine energy too.
And I think that what we're
trying to do is to, to let these
people let that down a little bit.
And I think the, the, the
white males come in like this.
Mm-hmm.
Up and back, you know, rigid,
cynical, you know, this, this
arm folded kind of energy.
And I would say that the Hispanics
are, if I could think of it that way,
they're more like, what are we gonna do?
Like mm-hmm.
What are we gonna do?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: You know,
and they're very curious.
Plus, I think Hispanics in general have
a more, um, grounded kind of energy.
It's more of an earth-based kind of
energy, a bit and more, you know.
Just down to earth.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's interesting
that, that, I guess you talked
about the rugged American thing.
You talked about that Jeep image.
Mm-hmm.
And of course, what Hollywood sold
from, I suppose, the depression
through, that's because golden age of
Hollywood is really the depression.
Right.
And then through to now is this image
of separation that this, it is a
hero or a heroine against the world.
Mm-hmm.
Typically that was a
white hero or heroine.
Increasingly.
Now with pressures in Hollywood, that
could be someone of another color, but
it's, it's still presented the same way.
Um, and that's a culture of separation.
We all know that the people who were
did what sort of Clint East would
pretended to do in his movies died.
They tended to die.
If you went out into back country of
Utah, you know, just with yourself
and your horse and your six gun
and a cigar, you probably didn't
last more than about six weeks.
Um, if you didn't have a bunch of people,
the people who made it across the planes,
in the wagon trains stuck together.
And of course, the
people they encountered.
And eventually dispossessed, the Native
Americans stuck together because they
knew that if you were out there in the
Utah back country by yourself for, you
know, X amount of time without some
backup, you're gonna die because it's
an extreme climate and food is gas.
Yeah.
So, um, this idea, and what
was interesting to me is,
is the, the Europeans that
came over in different waves.
You know, we talk now about Hispanics
coming over in waves, but before
that it was, um, long before that it
was Italians and Russians and Poles
and Irish and whoever, anyone who
was poor, who wanted to get the hell
outta Europe, um, when Europe was
poor and oppressive pre-World War ii.
And what did they do?
They stuck together.
They came over, they
created their own ghettos.
They, they did exactly the
process that you described mm-hmm.
Um, in Miami.
But, you know, it was Irish groups
doing it for each other in New York
or Boston, or it was, uh, you know,
um, Italian groups doing it for
each other in New York, et cetera.
And because every, everyone out of
that European, um, bracket, including
the Eastern European bracket, has
now to some degree made it including
the sort of post 1990 collapse
of the Soviet Union, Russians,
Ukrainians, and so on, who came over.
Also worked very, very hard and
have now made it into a sort of a,
a stratosphere of economic culture.
That's one of the great
things about the USAs.
There is a lot of opportunity,
um, but they do it collectively.
Yet the white males and females were sold.
I think we were all sold a notion
of the Clint Eastwood type rugged
individual, which goes back to all of
the Celtic, um, and Norse mythologies.
You always have a hero figure who
stands against the world like Cullen
in the, the hound of Ulster in the
Irish myth cycle, or, uh, Siegfried
out of the ring cycle in Germany.
But what happens to all those dudes?
They all die.
They all die with their backs against the
wall and their guts around their, um, uh,
around their feet surrounded indeed by a
pile of their slain upon which they then
lie on top because they're slain too.
And then their, their grieving goddess
female figure comes along and beats
her breast and says, this is terrible,
and so on, and then goes off and has
their son who repeats the process.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But it doesn't seem to
have served us particularly well, and I
bet you that a lot of the veterans and
first responders who you are dealing
with have believed that particular myth
Jane Strong: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Since they
were old enough to imbibe it
somewhere pre 10 years old.
Now suddenly they need tribe
and they actually found it
when they were in their units.
Jane Strong: Yes,
Rupert Isaacson: absolutely.
And as you say so, so
talk to us about that.
Do they, do you, do you
find that there is a, uh,
an observation, a sort of acknowledgement?
Do they notice that this is going on,
that, that this was a myth they were
sold and now have to abandon and rethink?
Or does this come as a great
surprise or are they not getting
it, or, or points in between?
Jane Strong: I think that they,
well, that's, that's actually, this
is a, these are big topics, right?
These are real cultural topics.
And the subculture of veterans
and first responders is, yes, they
went in to serve a higher purpose.
Uh, that is why they went
in, they want mm-hmm.
The, the, the first responders
wanna protect, they wanna serve,
they wanna keep people safe.
That's really their orientation.
And, but it's a collective, it's a, it's
a social thing that they're going in for.
Um, and then they get into a
tribe when, when they're in,
when they're in the service.
You know, the firehouse
guys all eat together.
They've got a big kitchen table.
They solve things at the kitchen
table, but unfortunately,
they also get really drunk.
And they also, they
don't go home, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Jane Strong: They stay in the firehouse.
And so they live this life,
this sort of tribal life or
community life of interdependence.
And that's a key thing,
is interdependence.
Like, you can go to the gym with
a bunch of people, but that's
not, your survival isn't at stake.
You know, you can have a bunch
of, this is the, the key is you're
protecting one another from the
lions, from the what's out there.
And I think military people
in the, if they go overseas or
whatever, they're living together.
They're sleeping together.
With their weapons and they know that
whether you like the other guy or not,
or the woman or not, you're gonna go on
watch with that person and you're gonna
lay down your life for that person.
Mm-hmm.
To protect the tribe or the
community or the country.
And actually it doesn't even,
it's not even the country.
It's your buddy.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: That's who
they're fighting for.
And so when they come home and people,
well one thing when people come home
and say one thing and do another,
which civilians do, we all do this,
we say one thing, we do another.
They don't, that doesn't compute for them.
'cause it Is this
Rupert Isaacson: something
that's often expressed to you
by the people you're working
Jane Strong: with?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, and I actually, now I say it to them
when I come in, I'm like, you know what?
I know that when you come home, this
transition into civilian life, I never
talk about post-traumatic stress.
I just talk about the transition.
When you come home, people
are out for themselves.
They say one thing, they do another.
And everybody's like, yeah.
And then I'm like, and you're
kind of the only one looking
around, you know, for what might
be dangerous or what's happening.
And these people are all just kind
of BSing about their own selves.
And it's exhausting.
And I tell them, I say this
literally, I say, this is very
expensive to your nervous system.
And they're like, oh my God.
Like, you got it.
It's exhausting because it's
like, if you had to interpret all
the time, what does this mean?
What are they really gonna do?
How, you know, it's a very, it's
confusing, it's frustrating.
That's
Rupert Isaacson: very similar
for people with autism.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Dealing
with constant irony.
Yeah.
Jane Strong: Yes.
And, and constant like, uh, playing
at something versus the more concrete,
um, what are we gonna do about this?
And this, the enemy is clear.
And for the first responder,
the danger is clear.
Let's say they don't know, it's not
necessarily an enemy, but there's
something going on that they, that the
others can't handle or shouldn't be
handling and that they have to step in.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Jane Strong: So there's, yeah.
So there's this, this, this lower
this, this sort of instinctive
center that they're trained to
operate from, that goes into action.
And so if you think about interrupting
that when they come back to civilian
life, it's like, no, don't say that.
No, don't do that.
No.
You know, and it, and it's very
confusing and it's exhausting.
Rupert Isaacson: No, it's
interesting to me too.
I'm just thinking about the military life.
Um,
the army, the services
are notoriously corrupt.
What I mean by that is.
They don't reward me.
Uh, initiative, it's all
about towing the line.
And unless you're in certain areas
of special forces, it's um, if you
step outta line, you'll be punished.
And sometimes stepping out of line
is necessary to save your buddy.
So there's the enemy isn't just, uh, the
terrorist over there or, or, or whoever
Jane Strong: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: That are
the nation national soldier.
It is.
Um, also your higher command.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Um, that there
is an instinctive mistrust of
the upper echelons of command.
They're the people sitting back
there telling you to go and die.
They're the ones who
are not supplying you.
They're the ones who are, but you
can then, of course, complain and
feel a certain degree of entitlement
because you have a supply line.
Okay?
It's corrupted, but it's there.
And although they are playing silly games
up there with your life or with the things
that you need to go get the job done,
and if you complain, you get in trouble.
At the same time that does exist.
Whereas of course, in civilian
life, you are out there on your own.
Yeah.
And if you are in the first
responders unit, you are
somewhere in the middle of that.
Do you find that, how, how do you do it?
So there's three, three
questions come to mind.
When people are coming back from the
service who have been enlisted, uh,
service men and women who have that
sense of them and us with their higher
command as well as whoever they're
fighting, how do they become aware of
that entitlement within themselves and
deal with it in a way that actually
allows them to then deal with society
where there is no chain of supply?
Um, and no one actually is holding
your hand and wiping your as
Jane Strong: You mean, you
mean the entitlement of, of
a support system around you?
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed, indeed.
Of saying, well, you know, I, I hate those
guys up there in the staff officers at the
same time, a hundred percent rely on them.
Mm-hmm.
And the food will arrive and the pay will
arrive and the mail will arrive and da,
but it, but maybe they didn't supply us
with enough of blah by the time we had
to go into, and so we suffered in this
operation because the higher ups there
didn't give a shit enough and so on.
And so, yeah, this, you hear a lot, right.
Then of course you come into society.
Society, no one gives a
shit about you at all.
There is no supply line.
Um, perhaps you join the corporate
world and then you find, no, that's just
the same thing as the military world,
but with no common purpose, really.
Jane Strong: Um, no common purpose.
And it's about money.
Whereas the military is, you're, nobody
gets rich in the, in the military.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Jane Strong: Corporate stuff is
constantly driven by end results.
You know, you know, it's, it's
driven by a, um, you know,
self-serving kind of thing.
Yeah.
So I would say, to answer your question,
I would say everybody goes in with some
idealized idea, what it's gonna be like.
They're gonna be safer in numbers.
They're gonna have order, which
a lot of people from come,
come from chaotic backgrounds.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Jane Strong: So that's good point.
And it may be, that's part of it.
Some, for some people, some people,
it's a tradition in the family.
Everybody serves, particularly in
the south, southwest, you have this
more, um, of the United States.
You have this more cultural
tradition of serving.
And for some people, I know three people
who went into the military because
they wanted to go to medical school.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Jane Strong: And they, their families
could not have provided that.
So they go into the military,
they get, they become docs
or psychiatrists or whatever.
So there's opportunity, there's
getting away from chaos.
There is also this desire, let's
say after nine 11, I want to, I
need to go do something about this.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: So you have
different motivations.
It's not just like the last resort.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: It's not like that.
But I think what happens is when they
get in, they realize it's kind of
really flawed and very inefficient.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And it's you, you sometimes have a
stupid commander, and I've talked
to all, particularly Vietnam vets.
They're funny.
They'll say, yeah, yeah, yeah.
We just would get outta sight and
then go somewhere else, you know?
Yeah.
Jane Strong: Our CO would say to do this.
And we'd be like, yeah, yeah.
You know, whatever.
Yes sir.
And then they'd go off and do
some, they just hide or they
do something else, you know?
Crazy.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Jane Strong: Crazy
rebellion within the system.
Right.
But, um, I would say, and this also
Sebastian y said in Tribe, is that
the reason that they take their
own lives is because of a sense of
alienation and isolation from when
they get home, because they're on
their own and there's no playbook.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: At least in the
military, there's a playbook.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And I think the same for
the first responders, right.
Because yeah, they're in the
middle of society all the time, but
they can't really talk to anyone
about what they do because No.
Who the hell understands.
And we went through this, uh, again,
in Texas when we started working
with our Tech Keen, uh, uh, program.
Um, it started with, um, veterans, but
the farm where we did it out of, after
we moved to Germany, we sort of moved
the operation to a friend's ranch.
Her husband happened to be, uh,
a firefighter in Austin, and I
realized very quickly that he was
scraping brains off the highway
Jane Strong: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Every Friday night.
Jane Strong: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And trying
not to disappear into a vodka
bottle and be a family man.
And, and, and, and the only people he
could talk to about this were his mates.
Yeah.
And he was at the same time, expected
to be a fully integrated member
of, so people were grateful to him.
People honored him for what he did, but
he couldn't talk to anyone about it.
Jane Strong: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: And, um, that's,
we realized that that sense of
isolation within the community,
sense of loneliness, um,
Jane Strong: yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Was huge.
Jane Strong: Yes.
And that's another reason why I would
say to anyone trying to do this,
don't let anyone tell you that you
have to be a firefighter or a law
enforcement person or a military
person to do this work because they
don't need more talking to each other.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: Honestly, in my opinion,
in my view, that's interesting.
They don't need more of that because
they lapse into, ah, what I've seen.
They lapse into the complaining,
they lapse into the, you know,
they go down this spiral.
That's a
Rupert Isaacson: bit what I
meant by the entitlement route.
Yeah,
Jane Strong: yeah, yeah, yeah.
They get into these conversations
and we have, our program is,
is 16 hour curriculum, which is
four sessions of four hours each.
There's plenty of time.
And we sit, we go out, work
with the horses, we teach
people how horses operate.
We do a big intro, then we have lunch,
and then we show them a presentation
or a, and have a big discussion we
call emotional agility about dealing
with, um, dealing with uncomfortable
emotions or like fear, anger, you
know, frustration, um, vulnerability.
That's a big one.
Mm-hmm.
Um.
Depression and suicidal urge.
We address all these emotions and we
give them, we use movie clips to do it.
And it's funny and it's very, it's very
engaging so they don't feel singled out.
But then we start a big discussion about
a different way to handle these things.
Like, this comes up for all of
us, how do you gonna handle it?
And we give them somatic body-based tools
to handle things and bring the prefrontal
cortex back online before they just react.
But having these discussions,
those are productive.
But when they sit at the lunch
table, if you got a bunch of first
responders, they're gonna lapse into
these, you know, conversations about
unfairness and about how stupid the
boss is, or how the CEO blah blah blah.
And we don't let those go on too long
'cause we're interested in moving forward,
Rupert Isaacson: right?
Jane Strong: Not backwards.
And the table at the firehouse is
a nice table, but it's probably
not gonna lend itself to really
processing and integrating things.
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
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absolutely gives you this.
Let's.
Back up a bit now with your life again.
So you did this ethnographic research.
You said that your dad came out
of some poverty in Virginia.
Mm-hmm.
Came up north, wanted to kind
of wasp, well, I guess he was
a wasp, just not a wealthy one.
Um, and for those weh Americans, he
Jane Strong: was welshman.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: We white Anglo-Saxon
Protestant is what that means.
Yeah.
And that's within the North American,
particularly East coast, north
America, or coastal North American.
Uh, parlance means, um, the white
dudes in charge effectively.
Jane Strong: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Um, the, so
he, he identified with that.
But you grew up, you, you
clearly have a horse background.
You grew up in Connecticut.
Um, Connecticut is outside of New York.
So, um, some parts of Connecticut
are incredibly moneyed.
Greenwich, Connecticut, these kinds of
areas, you know, billionaire areas, other
parts of Connecticut are blue collar.
Other parts of Connecticut are
very wild, almost wilderness.
Um, other parts of Connecticut
are like fishermen.
So you, it's a very small state.
So you've got kind of
all of that going on.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you end up being a sort of horse
woman in that Connecticut area, which
is, you know, a moneyed area for this.
What's the trajectory?
How do you end up in
that horse world there?
What do you end up doing for a living
that then prepares you further to do this?
And then I want to jump much
more deeply into equi effect.
Jane Strong: Sure.
So actually I did grow,
I grew up in New Jersey.
I live in Connecticut now, but
it's got a similar, similar, yeah.
You know, it's got similar
suburban kind of thing.
It's bedroom communities to New York.
And my dad moved out to New Jersey after
being um, in Long Island for a while.
And he, he, he just lived, he wound
up in Long Island 'cause he married
my mom who lived in Long Island.
So then we moved to New Jersey and I
was in a suburban community and my dad
had this, he went to Virginia Tech.
I don't even know how he
got there, I don't think.
I had no idea because I wi and I wish
I'd asked him, but I have no idea how
he wound up at V Virginia Tech and he,
um, got, came back, came up to New York.
He was one of eight children and he's
the only one of eight who had children.
So that tells you a little bit
about how strange that and how
much the poverty was around him.
Rupert Isaacson: Whereabouts in Virginia?
What, what was he from?
Jane Strong: Between
Charlottesville and Richmond.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Yeah.
That's the poor, that's still to
this day, a poor area of Virginia.
Jane Strong: Very blink your
eyes and you go past the town.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
Jane Strong: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Jane Strong: Um, I think
he went to bed hungry.
Um, I think it was abject and I think
they barely made it, but he went up north.
He's the only one who came up
north during the depression.
And when he got to, and he got a
job in banking and so then we, we
wound up moving to New Jersey and um.
He, I was 13 years younger than my sister
and 14 years younger than my brother.
And my father was kind of like doing
well, he was doing well in this bank.
He was a loan officer, VP in the bank.
And he, I think, had this idea he was
gonna turn me into a southern bell, like
I was gonna become his unfulfilled dream.
And, um, so he, I had dancing lessons,
my sister and brother did not.
Um, I had, uh, piano lessons
and I had, and then he asked
me if I wanted to have a horse.
And I was like, what?
Are you kidding me?
Mm-hmm.
So I had gone to camp also.
I'd gone to camp and that's
when I first started riding.
And, you know, we'd fall off and I'd
laugh and get back on and other kids
were like, you know, this is not for me.
So I just loved it.
And so when he said that, I was
like this, I was over the moon.
Um, and so, uh, I wound
up keeping my horse.
I had this horse that actually we
bought in Virginia, and I don't even
know, I don't even know what breed he
was, but he was this coppery yellow
Palomino that who was beautiful.
Probably some combination of a Tennessee
walking horse and something else.
I don't even know.
He was just big.
He was big.
And I, so he bought me this horse.
We started, he was four.
And um.
I started to train him kind
of on my own, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And, and he would jump over the
moon, just jump over the moon.
He was never hit a jump.
He was wildly by himself.
He'd go out and jump.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: And I kind of
chickened out at four feet.
Rupert Isaacson: I didn't
Jane Strong: really was big
Rupert Isaacson: enough.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
That was big enough.
So anyway, but he was terrific and,
um, I had a great time and I did ride a
little bit in on the, I talked to you a
little about fox hunting, which I wish
that we could have just kept it a sport.
I wish that we could have.
I rode as a guest rider out at Spring
Valley, which I think is still operating.
It's a hunting thing out in
western New Jersey, but mm-hmm.
We lived in the suburbs and I
didn't have a way to get out there.
So I showed him in, um, hunter jumper
classes and I was, I was then an
outsider, um, because I had a yellow
horse and they all had grays and bays.
Chestnuts and they hated pinning me.
They hated it because,
but he was so, pinning
Rupert Isaacson: me is
giving you a a a ribbon.
A ribbon.
Jane Strong: They hated it
because I didn't fit with the
norm and I had a plaid jacket.
I didn't have a, you know, regular
hunt color jacket, black or whatever.
And I just was this sort of renegade
kid who didn't really even have lessons.
I just did this.
And he would win because he
would change leads perfectly.
He would, he was fast and he would go
over the center of the, I mean, he was
so good that they couldn't not pin us.
Um, and then, um, so I did
that for three, four years.
And then, um, I was very scrawny, very
late to develop, and this makes me sort
of sad to say, talk about this, but
I've talked about it a million times
on a therapist couch and other places.
But anyway, I, I stole this ponytail,
this $4 ponytail from a store with my
sister drove me, and I stole this thing,
and I got caught and it was a $4 item.
And the guy who was the security guy in
the store said, um, you could go to jail.
And I mean, I never, I've never
been so frightened in my life.
How
Rupert Isaacson: old were you?
Jane Strong: 13.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh.
Jane Strong: So I, I was just, I can
remember to this day that sensory
memory stuff of sitting in this
chair with this bright light on me
and this guy telling me this stuff.
Anyway, my sister took me
home and they must have called
my father when I got home.
And I was his darling.
You know, I was his, he was
my only ally in the family.
'cause everyone else was kind of
jealous of this treatment I got.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Jane Strong: And I went home and
he just was so upset with me.
And he was, I can remember his
face like coming down close to me.
He was six three dark eyes dark,
that black Welsh, you know, dark
color, um, coming down at me and
just telling me that no one in our
family had ever stolen anything and,
um, ever hard to believe when you
grew up with that kind of poverty.
But he told me that.
And then he said this thing, and
I'd always had this sort of sense
of like, you know, Jesus was a good
guy and he was a renegade like me.
And, you know, I'd be off galloping
through the woods and, you know,
just that I just had this great
sense of being safe in a certain way.
And I went to Sunday school, but
I, I wouldn't say I was devout or
anything, I just had a good feeling.
And then he said, you know, Jesus has
probably never forgive you for this.
And I was like, oh my God.
And he handed me a Bible and I
just, I think I lost my footing.
I lost my footing and I felt
that I was just a thief.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh.
Jane Strong: So that,
Rupert Isaacson: I'm so sorry.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Yeah.
That was a turning point.
And I'm saying, so
Rupert Isaacson: then what happened?
Yeah.
What, what, what did, what did
that, what events did that kick off?
Jane Strong: I just felt like it didn't
matter what I did and that I would never
be inside of anything or see or protected.
Rupert Isaacson: So then
despair effectively.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
De despair, depression, and, and a
lot of rebellion, a lot of, a lot
of envy at people who were inside.
Mm-hmm.
So the origin of the being outsider
wasn't because I, I like being an
individual and I was independent,
but I didn't feel outside until then.
And I think a lot of people, I'm telling
you this because a lot of people, I think
have a turning point where things drop out
from under us that feel where we thought
we were safe or we were protected or
whatever, and then we weren't, you know?
Or
Rupert Isaacson: did your father's
attitude to you change completely?
Did he like withdraw love
from that point and that, was
this that, or did he actually.
He forgot about it.
Went straight back to being
kind of your regular dad, but it
was you who was carrying this?
Yeah.
Which one was it?
Jane Strong: He thought that?
He said to me 10 years later, he
said to me, and he was crying, he
said to me 10 years later, you know,
I came to you the next morning and
told you that things would be okay.
And I looked at him and I
said, I don't remember that.
I was so, I was so gone that I
Rupert Isaacson: didn't, well,
cortisol, cortisol is a strong ass drug.
Yes.
I mean, you know, if you get
it, enough of it flowing through
you, your rational brain is gone.
Yeah.
You know,
Jane Strong: I didn't hear anything.
I never thought the sun would come up.
That's what I felt like.
Mm-hmm.
So it was a very big turning point
for me where I felt like at first,
like the world was my oyster.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: You know, and there was
nothing but what I wanted to do, and
I could do sort of whatever I wanted.
And then all of a sudden it
was like the doors closed and
I felt like I was just a thief.
So I went through the motions.
I, I actually wound up losing
my interest in riding in a way.
I just didn't, I didn't,
I just lost my life.
Joy.
Yeah.
Joy.
And, um, so I sold my horse and I
wound up going to this girl's private
school because a day school, because
I just wasn't studying in school.
I was so wrapped up in the
horses and I never saw him again.
Um, so then I started to live
a life that was not my dream.
Um, I think, like you said about your
mom, it's like when you live a life
that isn't really your dream, you know,
that you kind of, it's expensive to your
nervous system and it takes its toll.
So I wound up going to school and I, you
know, I went to college in Boston and
then, um, went out to California for a
while and then came back and got a job
in advertising in the city, and then
started to do this ethnographic research.
And I think because I felt like I
was an outsider, I could go into
any other culture and feel Yeah,
you know, what's up with you.
Rupert Isaacson: It's really interesting
that, um, some, if, if someone looked at
your life, you know, from the outside and
said, okay, look, white woman doing well
lives in Connecticut, uh, has horses,
has the time and leisure in her life to
put together a therapeutic riding thing.
Grew up with horses, dah,
dah, dah, looks like a wasp.
They would never think that you had
any sort of outsider, um, energy.
And I think this is an important
point to make because compassion
isn't always about what's obvious.
And your story about that incident
with your dad reminds me of a very
dear friend of mine who had a not
dissimilar run in with her father,
um, at a similar age and felt that
there was a huge withdrawal of love.
And sent her down a path, um,
which perhaps he might have
thought when he looked back on it.
Oh, well that was just an incident.
That was just a, a moment of anger,
you know, because no one was struck,
no one was, you know, um, but the
force of the anger and the emotion
was strong enough, you know, and
when one is dealing, say with,
uh, veterans, one of the questions
that comes up, you know, can
be, well, did you see combat?
And by only, only a very small number
of veterans see combat, most people
who serve don't serve in that way.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Um, but it doesn't mean
that when they come back, they don't feel
the same sense of alienation because of a
lot of the things that we just described.
Jane Strong: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Or if someone is
working for the police or the fire
department and so on, and, and they
have, uh, a good job and it's got lots
of benefits and they have a steady income
and they're doing quite well and they
get a lot of respect in the community
and they have all their buddies, how
would they feel a sense of alienation?
So something I, it's very interesting
that when you tell your story of
this sort of horsey girl in the
New Jersey suburbs, who by all.
Accounts is pretty privileged despite
her father having made the money.
You know, nonetheless, um,
compassion requires us to see
beyond those sorts of veneers.
Yeah.
Um, when it's, it's not so obvious because
then we will be more likely to see when
it's not so obvious in somebody else.
And so maybe that having happened
to you kind of qualified you in
a, in a funny way for this job
because you can see the nuances.
Jane Strong: Yeah, I think so.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: How did
you return to horses?
Jane Strong: Well, that was
so I never could imagine.
The thing is, I could never imagine.
So the feeling was, and I think that
this is really important, is that, you
know, this back in a way to when we
were talking about this perfectionism
that you see now with people is that
no one feels good enough, you know?
Mm-hmm.
In a certain way.
And I think I can see that in people
very easily because I remember it so well
and I know that what it feels like to
feel less than, or an outsider or, you
know, I just know it, I know it in my
bones and I have great compassion for it.
And I think that, you know, I'm all
for people becoming individuals truly
following your passion or your dream.
Um, and so anyway, but
I, so we try to help.
The folks we work with find that
for themselves, whatever that means.
Whatever it means, it's
not what it means to me.
What's what it means to them.
Um, so I think for me, so I went into the,
so I went to college, wound up in this
New York City, married a guy who lived
in Greenwich, who was not, he was, he
couldn't wait to get back to California.
So that marriage didn't last too long.
We moved into the city and I thought
the advertising business would be
fun because the people were sort of
renegades in the advertising business.
Mm-hmm.
They weren't, they were
wearing cowboy boots to work.
I mean, they were, they were sort of
fun, different people, not corporate.
So I got a job there and then
realized that what I loved was to
do research and find out what made
people tick, you know, and, and that.
And so I did that for a while and
then went out on my own and had my
own independent research company.
And I did that for 30 years.
Okay.
Um, and, and I was always, I, you
know, I also worked with eBay when
they started, and those people were
all these really fringy people who were
at flea markets and they've suddenly
got a computer and learned to write
and learn to describe their products.
So they, and they became the
breadwinners sometimes 'cause of eBay.
You know, I did, did all sorts of
different kinds of research with lots of
different kinds of people and always their
stories were always really interesting
to me of how did you get where you
are, you know, that kind of thing.
So anyway, I did that and I
liked that part of the job.
I didn't like the part of the job
that was about selling things to
people, like how can we manipulate
this into something we can sell?
But I love doing the, in the research.
So I did that for a bunch of years.
And then, um, I met this guy when
I, then I was living in Connecticut,
in Westport, um, and I met this guy
who had access to horses over in
Westchester County, in Bedford, New
York, big estates, big pieces of land.
And I, and I was like, sure,
I'll get back on a horse.
But I just couldn't see how I would
do that before, without competing.
I just didn't know any other way.
And, um, I knew I didn't wanna do that.
And so anyway, so then I went to, uh,
went riding with this guy and I was, my
head was scared to death with stories.
Oh, you're this old equestrian, you don't
know what you're doing and you know,
blah, blah, blah, going on in my head.
But when I sat on the horse, my
body just was like, you got this.
I was like, isn't that interesting
that my body is saying something
different from my head?
And so I get on this horse and he
went off, you know, cheerfully.
Um, and we went out on the trails.
And then when I came back I just, I was so
elated to be back on a horse and it felt
so right, not just good, it felt right.
And, um, I got this message, which
I have no idea where it came from.
I got this message, it's not just
good for you, it's good for everyone.
And I was like, okay,
so what does that mean?
Um, and he gave me a, uh, this guy I met.
Unfortunately I wasn't interested in him,
but I loved coming back to the horses.
He kind of was a byproduct of this.
But, um, he gave me this book,
the Man Who Listens to Horses,
which is the story of Mon Roberts.
And, um.
I devoured it because I had no
idea about being anything, but
you're, you know, I love my horse,
but you're gonna do what I want.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Jane Strong: You know, it was
that kind of traditional thing.
And, um, so anyway, I, um, read
the book crying, you know, how
could I have ever not known this?
And, you know, very emotional.
And then I went out to, to work with him
in a clinic to work with Monty Roberts in
California in a clinic, a five day clinic.
And there's all these track people and
trainers and, uh, you know, breeders and,
you know, he's, he's a piece of work.
Monty Roberts is.
But anyway, so we're one day, and
I haven't ridden except like this
casual few times out on these trails.
I, so I go to this clinic with him
and he's, we, we had one day to
learn how to do this join up thing.
And, uh, I was like in a panic because
I was this rusty old equestrian, right.
And he's got us with these
lines, those lines that, the
web lines that are very light.
And, um, and I was, by the time I, by the
time I was halfway through, I was wrapped
like a cocoon with this rope around me
because I couldn't throw it properly.
And the, and it was very crazy.
But I did it.
And in doing it, I was like,
ah, I get this, you know?
And so.
I watched, so I tried, I did it myself.
And you know, he did all sorts of things
with us that shouldn't have been done
with people who weren't experienced.
And I was not, again, I was new.
And so, um, but I, what I did notice when
he was working with other people was that
I could see what center of intelligence
people were overusing or underusing.
Like if your body is overusing
the body center, the horse goes
like this, if you're too much
in the body, and I could see it.
And he, he, these people
would scare the horses, right?
And, and he's yelling at them and I'm
like, I can see why this is happening.
They just need to tone that down.
And then I could see when they were
overusing their heart, like they wanted
their horse to like them, you could see
the energy coming out from their heart.
And then if they were too much in
their heads and not in their bodies
at all, a horse was like, I don't
know, you know, where are you?
It's like a potato chip, chip act.
Right?
You know?
And um, so I was like, well,
what do I do with this?
So I wrote him a long letter.
They were very strange, the, the
guarding, their sort of secrets and
their way of doing things and said, so
I said, look, I'm seeing some things
here that I think might be useful.
And they said, well, write us a letter.
So I wrote this 12 page letter to
them about seeing this, how good
this was for people to recognize when
they were over or underusing their
bodies or their hearts or their minds.
And I never heard back from them.
So I was like, I was kind of crying
again, like, what am I doing?
And then I wound up getting
this book, the Dao of EQU and
Linda Hanoff work in Tucson.
And I was like, this is what I wanna do.
And so I went out there and I
did her apprenticeship and I was
rewired, I think from doing that.
Um,
Rupert Isaacson: what
rewired you about her work?
I mean, I, I know her and I know her
work is very good and I know lots of
people who benefited from it, but I'm
always very interested to know what
people's personal experiences, what,
what felt, what was the rewiring process?
Jane Strong: I think mostly it was
the space she was in, the space
where the horses were so respected.
Um, I, you could feel it palpably
feel that these horses hadn't had a
say in things that we were asking,
that we weren't dominating, that
we were, um, using our intuition.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: You know, when she would
say, what's your heart's desire?
I'd be like, I don't know.
You know, and you kind of have to.
Sink in to what was really going on
inside and what do I want and where
am, you know, but very internal
because she's a very, um, she's a very
sort of half horse kind of person.
She's a very, but she's very,
she's not like effusive,
she's not overusing her heart.
She uses her intuition a lot and trusts
it and is very bright in her observations.
Um, but she doesn't interfere.
She really doesn't
interfere with anything.
And, um, so anyway, I, so I went out
there and I was doing this work and
watching other people work, and you
watch some pretty wild stuff happen
with the horses by their choice.
Um, and I think that.
Well, such as, well even with
me, uh, she had this old Mustang
called Noche who'd been running
drugs between Mexico and Arizona.
And, uh, that was her husband's horse.
And he was this old 30 5-year-old Mustang.
Couldn't pat him, couldn't touch him.
He's like, no body work, you
know, he walked like a mule
because he was so stiff.
But they, he didn't want
anybody to do anything.
But he was very wise.
And I went into the round pen,
and that was the other thing.
We went in individually into the
round pen, which we don't do really.
Um, but he, I went in and I was feeling
upset about the fact that I hadn't put
this dog down soon enough that I had,
and, you know, selling this horse when
I was a kid and I never saw him again.
And I just felt like full of guilt.
And I, and he was standing there and he
turned his back on me and walked away.
And I was like, well, okay.
And then he turned back to me and I
heard, I don't know if he said this, I
just heard it's not guilt that matters.
It's ignorance.
Guilt is a waste of time.
Focus on ignorance.
And I was like, okay.
You know, so it was this
strange vibe in that place of.
Allowing nonverbal or beyond verbal
communication to start to happen
or being open to it, that I would
never have said, but that's what
he said to me, and he was right.
Rupert Isaacson: What
do you think it meant?
What do you think it meant?
That, that
Jane Strong: I think that we do, I
think when we waste time in guilt, um,
versus like healthy remorse or making
amends, you know, that's good to do that.
Make amends be be honest about what
you did and try to make it right.
Living amends or verbal amends.
I think what he was saying to me
was, you're wasting your time.
Like, all these regrets, that's
then this is now and book.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Go, go ahead.
Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.
Jane Strong: You know, just
focus on, focus on learning
more, focusing on getting wiser.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that,
that was gonna be my question.
What do you think he meant by ignorance?
Jane Strong: I think he meant going
through the motions of what other people
are doing or, or, you know, um, just get,
get wiser about how things really are.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Jane Strong: I, I think that's really
what I think he meant, and that's what
I've been doing since, is like, okay,
Rupert Isaacson: so then you,
you, you came back from Tucson,
from Linda's place, then what?
Jane Strong: Well then I,
then I went for a year.
It was, it's a year long program.
I went five days and in the second time we
went down, we had to conduct a workshop.
And I'm like, what?
So they were right behind us, but we
had to conduct a workshop and we did
this thing with cancer survivors and
I couldn't believe that the horses
were hanging over the fence waiting
to see these cancer survivors.
And I was like, wow, these horses get it.
They get that these people have
been through stuff and that their
priorities have changed and that the,
the facade and the veneer is gone.
And they were amazing with these
people who thought about what they
could do, not what they couldn't do,
and they came back into their bodies.
'cause you kinda have to leave
your body when you've got cancer.
You have to leave and let
them do what they do to get
rid of the disease, you know?
And so they were very, very
grateful to be invited back in.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Jane Strong: Anyway, so I did that
and then we learned about, we learned,
she taught us about a whole bunch of
different stuff, including somatic
experiencing work with Peter Levine.
She taught us about a lot of
different opportunities for us to get
Rupert Isaacson: quickly.
For people who dunno what that is.
Give us the quick skinny,
what is somatic work?
So
Jane Strong: somatic experiencing
is a training institute that where
you can learn to work with the body
and the nervous system work to work
with trauma as opposed to the mind.
Mm-hmm.
You're working with the amygdala,
with the, with the fear response
fight or flight and freeze response.
Mm-hmm.
And so anyway, I wound up going to school
to learn that and I became a certified
somatic experiencing practitioner,
which fits very well with the three
centers that I'm talking about.
Mm-hmm.
And the, and the body-based
reactions to trauma or whatever.
Um, so anyway, what
Rupert Isaacson: three
centers are you talking about?
Jane Strong: Body, the gut, let's say.
Mm-hmm.
The lower the bo the, this
part of the body down here.
The heart and the mind.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, got it.
Jane Strong: And so
Rupert Isaacson: the three
parts of the brain basically.
Jane Strong: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So, so I came back and I thought,
well, I'm gonna do some workshops and
then I'm gonna quit my job and I'm
gonna just do this and you know this.
And then it turned out by
Rupert Isaacson: then
you had horses again.
Jane Strong: I bought a horse.
Yes.
Because when I went in the
training, I knew I needed to
ha, I wanted to tackle a horse.
So I did.
And I came back and I started to
try to do workshops, but nobody
knew what I was talking about.
This is 2005 six.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: Nobody knew
what I was talking about.
And
Rupert Isaacson: you were
keeping this at a horse, at a
farm of your own where you had
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Control
of the environment or you
were at a boarding barn?
Jane Strong: I was at a boarding
barn, but the woman was very
much into re rescuing PMU Falls.
Okay.
So there were a lot of
horses there who were,
Rupert Isaacson: and again, for the
British and other people who, dunno what
that is, just say what that is please.
Jane Strong: That's pregnant mares
urine, which is pr the product
of a, a drug company that's
for, uh, menopause symptoms.
It's pre Premarin, um,
progesterone and estrogen.
And they take, they harvest the
urine from pregnant mares in Canada.
And then they do, and then they get the
urine and then the fos are the byproduct.
So they destroy them
or sell 'em to auction.
They, Fred take 'em to auction.
So she was taking those
falls and raising them.
And so there was, there was, it was a
boarding barn, but she had her own horses
and we would work with those horses and
my horse and we did a few workshops.
There was no quitting my day job.
Um, that wasn't gonna happen.
And um, so I did that.
And then, um, in 2008.
When the economy collapsed
in the United States.
Also, at the same time, my work
had sort of ebbed because of that.
And I saw that statistic
of 22 suicides a day.
And I said to the person who
became my partner, David,
this is what we're gonna do.
We're gonna create a nonprofit and we're
gonna do this because these people need
to have their circuits rewired, not fixed.
They need to have, they need, they need
bigger access to more of themselves and
to settle down and see what's possible.
Rupert Isaacson: And then
you started the EQU effect.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
So this is like part two.
I want to know all about the program.
Tell us what you do.
Jane Strong: Well, what we do is
we have groups of veterans, or in
this case now first responders.
And they can be mixed sometimes
'cause sometimes it's both.
Um, but we have folks come
out to the, to our farm.
I, I then wound up with my, my
life partner John, buying a place
in Connecticut that's 65 acres.
There was no doing this in the suburbs.
That's, that wasn't gonna happen.
I needed a dedicated space
where it was confidential.
Where people could feel safe.
And the safety is the
green and the privacy.
Um, so doing it a, I tried starting
it at a barn where I was boarding
my horse, who I have now, who's up
here before we fix this barn up.
But it's very hard to do this
work at a commercial barn.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Absolutely.
Jane Strong: People are walking
by, oh, what are you doing?
Rupert Isaacson: You've gotta
have control of the environment.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Yeah.
So that would be number one for
anyone thinking of doing this
is to do it in a private space.
Mm-hmm.
Where it's dedicated.
Um, if you can have control of the horses
you work with, that's really important.
'cause you're gonna, I teach people
in a certain way to do things.
And, um, so anyway, so I, um, when I
started, when I be lived here, which
was 2011, we bought this property and I
started to fix it up and all that stuff.
And now it's done.
It's the way it's supposed to be.
But we had folks come out, um, usually we
get them, and this is another important
thing, they don't just walk off the
street, you know, they are either getting
services from the VA or the, or vet
centers, which was started in 1979 for
vets, combat Vets and their families.
Um, or they come
Rupert Isaacson: VA's
Veterans Association.
Right.
Yes.
Jane Strong: Veterans Administration.
Rupert Isaacson: Administration, sorry.
Yeah.
And that's part of, that's a government,
Jane Strong: yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Um, wing of government,
ministry of Defense, I suppose.
Jane Strong: No, unfortunately
it's separate from administrative
Rupert Isaacson: of Health Department.
Jane Strong: It's the Department
of Defense, and then it's the va.
Okay.
And, um, the VA is the Veterans
Administration, and that's
a medical model based place.
Okay?
So you go in there and you have a
diagnosis, which is important because then
the next, the next step is we're gonna
give you meds and we're gonna talk to you.
But we're gonna, it's
a physical thing too.
I mean, primary care and
mental health counseling.
And so, um, and the vet centers were
started in 1979 by Vietnam vets who didn't
want their records going back to the va.
They were very squeamish about that.
Um, so they, and they see, they
see combat vets in their families.
So I work with those two organizations.
And I also work with a non-government
organization called Guardian Revival.
And I've done work with Iraq and
Afghanistan, veterans of America.
So non-government organizations,
of course, have more
fluidity, more flexibility.
Um, but I always work with an
organization that sort of vets
the people before they come.
Um, because the other thing to know is
you can't work with veterans who are
still in the war, you know, who still
think that packing your weapon, you know,
and, and you know, your head's swiveling
around looking for danger all the time.
That's hard to reach those people.
It's very hard to reach them.
And I have worked with some people
like that, but it's, they're, I think
they're running too much cortisol
to be able to take things in.
Um, so once somebody's been home
for a little while and has started
to say, I wanna change, you know,
I wanna do something about this.
I don't like the way I
feel, I wanna do something.
Rupert Isaacson: So, okay,
talk us through the program.
Somebody comes, it's me.
Jane Strong: So they, they, you
Rupert Isaacson: arrive,
I, I arrive at your place.
Right?
Jane Strong: They
Rupert Isaacson: come, have I
arrived there because I wanted
to, or someone sent me that?
Jane Strong: No, I arrived
because I wanted to.
And sometimes some of the, some
of the clinicians kinda strong
arm the people and say, look,
Rupert Isaacson: okay,
Jane Strong: this is, this is
therapy, but you don't have to talk.
Rupert Isaacson: Alright.
Jane Strong: And, or they'll have
some, you know, temper tantrum or some
explosion or something and they're
like, you gotta go to this thing.
Just try it.
But it's always a sort of a try
it, you know, see what you think.
And most of them are very skeptical.
Um, they can't imagine what a horse would
have to do with relationships with people.
Um, they're, they're not as
cynical as the, as the first
responders, but they're skeptical.
Um,
Rupert Isaacson: the first
responders are more cynical.
Uhhuh.
Why?
Jane Strong: I think 'cause they're still
working and they, they've been around for
a long time in a, in a system where they
don't have, sometimes don't have great
commanding officers and you know, it's
a, it's a kind of a different system.
It's a different, um, you know,
they're more, they're kind of out on
the street, you know, in their own
communities and stuff and they see
the darkest side of our own cultures.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
That makes sense.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Jane Strong: So, um, but anyway,
so we start in the barn and
the horses are in their stalls.
We start there and then we talk
about, we talk about what we're
gonna do, not necessarily the
exact schedule we talk about.
Our aim is to help you settle down.
And, and we are hoping, you know,
our real mission is to help you
rebuild healthy relationships.
And we're gonna, we'll do that if we can.
You'll have to see.
And then we do what we, uh, somatic
exercise where we do a joint warmup
thing to get people in their bodies.
We just say, you know, this is just so
you can get on the horse's wavelength.
'cause they're always in their bodies,
so we wanna get you to do that.
We're not selling an ideology and we're
not trying to get them to meditate.
We're not, we're not going there.
There's, everything is very concrete.
And then we do this joint warmup, and then
we do this body scan to cultivate what
we, what is called interceptive awareness,
which is what is going on inside, not why.
How do you feel?
But it's sensory based, so
what is going on inside?
And we track through the body and
say, you know, what did you note?
You know, put your
attention on your heart.
Put your attention on your shoulders,
put your attention on your hands.
And as your temperature different, we
cultivate sensory based awareness and
we go through the whole body and then
we tell them that we've got, you know,
if you actually, when you get triggered,
which we all do, we, we always say, we
all, this is true for all of us, not you.
And that when we get triggered, it's
really good to take a nice breath and feel
the bottoms of your feet and feel gravity.
'cause it gives you more
space to handle things.
So it's kind of a literal thing.
And it's kind of a concrete thing.
And if somebody says, well
I always feel like this.
We say, well what about today?
So we're always bringing it to right now.
And then we, um, we do that
and then we tell them about
how the horses see the world.
And I'm gonna add a lot of the stuff
that you talk about with the history
of horse training and dressage,
and I'm gonna talk about that
because they're fascinated to know
Rupert Isaacson: Well, 'cause
Yeah, it's all military basically.
It's all
Jane Strong: military.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Jane Strong: And I just read a story
about the Buddha, which was also
a military story where he said.
Right.
He said, watching these people in
battle ride in a pond, in a, I'm sorry.
Looking at fish riding in
a puddle is what he said.
What an image.
Right.
So they know what that's like.
Rupert Isaacson: He was a prince.
He would've been Right.
He was also a horseman.
Sath.
Yes.
That Northern Indian culture
is a, it's where dressage
went before it went to Europe.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: He
would've been raised in it.
Absolutely.
Jane Strong: Yes.
And his father, and it, the, the myth
goes, the story goes that he, he took
that horse, and I forgot the horse's name.
Um, he took that horse, the horse carried
him out of the palace and to where he
was gonna leave, and then the horse
was sent back to the palace and died
of a broken heart because he lost him.
I mean, it's a beautiful story and whether
it's actually true or not, it will ma,
it matters to these people because they
see themselves as part of a lineage
and they see themselves as that the
horses are part of a lineage that that
took them wherever they went, right?
Mm-hmm.
Until the last, till World War I, or
start maybe the start of World War ii,
but pretty much World War I, that's how we
got around and that's who accompanied us.
And so I think that makes them feel
like the horses are not foreign objects.
And because they are to most
of these people, one vet
came and said, you know what?
I never even thought about
a horse before today.
It's kind of funny.
Yeah.
So we say that they, it's only
been in the last 120 years that we
weren't dependent on them or that we
didn't see them around all the time.
And so we say to them, you're,
we're teaching you to remember
something that's in your DNA.
It's already there.
Um, so we're trying to make
the bridge through what we
call resonance to the horses.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and then they go, we take
them out to the round pen.
We've got this big 70 foot diameter round
pen, and we take the horses out there and
usually we take them first, um, and they
go out there and then we, we ask them if
they wanna put their hands on 'em, which
one would they like to with who are, so
we're cultivating a little intuition,
not airy fairy intuition, but like, who
are you drawn to, you know, and they'll
pick a horse, you know, and sometimes
they don't pick the right horse for them.
And so we'll kind of guide them,
why don't you start with this one?
You know, and then we'll move over
to other ones and you're gonna have
a chance to work with all of them.
And, um, so they get their
hands on 'em and then the heart
rate stuff starts happening.
Um, or if they're afraid,
which some of them are really
afraid, but they don't say it.
And I'm, I can see it in their eyes.
I can see it in their
body that they're afraid.
'cause there's, we track, we
track the rigidity and so I'll
say, are you okay with this?
Well.
Yeah, I'm okay.
And it's like, let's, how about we
back up until you feel comfortable?
Because if it's real fear, when you
move away from the source, it goes away.
So we back up, I put if I can, if
they let me, I put my hand on their
shoulder and I, I'll just say,
let's just stand here for a minute.
We'll just stay here as long as you want.
And then they, a lot of 'em will
start to cry because no one has
respected fear in their culture.
So it's a very telling, moving
thing to be respected for your
fear, because we as predators and
prey do not like the prey part of
ourselves, especially military people.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
Um, yeah.
And it's so interesting, particularly
the enlisted, um, men and women
because if you go into combat in that
way, your job is to follow orders.
Jane Strong: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Um, and it's
very interesting how when people
become special forces, weirdly,
they're more allowed to be afraid.
Yeah.
Because they're supposed to use their
judgment like, should I engage with
this or should I not engage with this?
Yeah.
And it therefore, it's all right to be
afraid because that's telling me that.
I may not succeed in this situation.
Perhaps this is not, you shouldn't just
go blindly in with bayonets, but if you
are, if you are rank hand file, your
job is to go blindly in with bayonets.
And if you get killed, you get killed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Jane Strong: yeah.
And I work with a lot of Navy Seals,
that's, I work with them and they
have techniques to deal with the fear.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: Because they're
on more on their own.
You're right.
They're more on their own.
They make more decisions.
They have to make very strategic,
Rupert Isaacson: they've
got to listen to fear.
But they've gone into another
sphere of the military.
Yes.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Yeah.
And they have, and there's the,
the, the biochemical or whatever
you call it, they have a particular
form of lack of reaction to fear.
And also, I mean, there's a, there's a
test and they, they don't, they honestly
don't feel it as much as we can tell
Rupert Isaacson: us about that test.
That's quite interesting.
I think for people to,
Jane Strong: I have to find out
what the name of it is, but it's
something to measure your cortisol.
It's a measure of adrenaline,
cortisol response to fear.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I'm looking
it up as you just keep talking.
Yeah.
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
So they have something that they
do that's lower, they have a much
higher threshold of fear toward fear.
Um, so if you can't find it, I can, I
was told this by someone in my somatic
experiencing course, and I can find
out what it is, but they de, they
generally have a higher threshold
of reaction to fear, to danger.
Rupert Isaacson: Um,
can,
Rupert Isaacson: can I
read you what, what, um,
Jane Strong: AI says?
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Yeah, it's, it's interesting just
because I think that this, this is a,
okay, just gonna quickly read this.
The Navy SEAL training, particularly
during basic underwater demolition
slash seal, BDS Bud school tests
for fear and mental fortitude by
systematically exposing candidates
to high stress, dangerous scenarios
designed to trigger panic.
Okay.
That you could, that seems logical.
The goal is not to eliminate fear,
but to measure a candidate's ability
to operate rationally under it and to
develop habitation, reducing the fear
response through repeated exposure.
So, um, down proofing candidates are
tied up hands and feet bound in a nine
foot pool to perform complex maneuvers
such as somersaults and swimming testing.
If they can stay calm while
struggling to breathe underwater
pool competence, instructors actively
disrupt students underwater ripping
off masks or regulators, you know,
forcing that life or death scenarios.
Training, including combat diving
where fear of injury or failure as
I, and then cold water and pressure
exposure, the surf torture and constant
exposure to or immersion in cold
ocean water test, the ability to focus
through intense physical discomfort.
And then they say techniques
for managing fear.
They use four key
techniques to manage fear.
And past training.
One box.
Breathing a tactical breathing technique.
Inhale fours.
Hold fours.
Exhale Fours.
Hold.
Fours used to move from a state
of panic to calm alertness.
Okay.
This we know actually brings you
into, uh, an alpha, actually.
Alpha state of alpha
brainwave, EEG Visualization.
Mentally rehearsing
scenarios, dirt diving.
A mission to familiarize
themselves with potential dangers.
They don't seem as scary when they happen.
Goal setting.
Tiny goals.
Mm-hmm.
Breaking training down into
small, manageable goals.
Eeg, getting to the next meal
or task rather than focusing on
the entire six month program.
What's the worst that happens?
A three second mental trick that
forces the brain to confront the
worst case scenario, which reduces
anxiety by eliminating the unknown.
Um, and then there's something
called the 40% rule popular
popularized in seal training.
This rule states that when you put,
when your mind tells you that you
are done exhausted and cannot go any
further, you are only actually 40% done.
The remaining 60% is found
through mental fortitude.
And then final thing is own
your own three foot space.
Focusing strictly on what is within
immediate control, actions, attitude,
and effort to prevent becoming
overwhelmed by chaotic environments.
Jane Strong: You ready to sign up?
Rupert Isaacson: Well, what's
so interesting about that is of
course that is not basic training.
That's not basic military training.
Jane Strong: Uhuh,
Rupert Isaacson: that's a different level.
Because if you go through something
like that that I just described,
you might say no to your sergeant.
Jane Strong: You might,
Rupert Isaacson: you know, you, you might
make a decision that's more rational
other than take that hill at all costs.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Um, and the 40% one is
very interesting, isn't it?
Um, that actually your bo,
your body's telling you to not
go into that 60% of reserves.
Jane Strong: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: If you can avoid
it very wise of the body to do that.
So interestingly, when you're
dealing with those people, do you
find that they're easier to reach?
Do you, do you, do you find that
the special forces people are easier
to work with un reach and because
they're so used to having to think
around complex things than the
people who've been regular enlisted?
Or do they actually come with just
a more complex set of problems?
Jane Strong: I say I think that what
they, because they are not just a
do part of the military, there can
do part of the military, they have
a very hard time with vulnerability.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Jane Strong: Very hard time.
And I mean, I mean the looking in a way,
looking incompetent or looking, you know,
fear, we separate fear and vulnerability.
So fear we, as we describe it, is not
entirely the way it is, but the way we
describe it, it's a physical threat.
So if you're afraid of horses, a horse
is a threat, I'm afraid we back up.
That goes down, right?
You go away from the source.
Vulnerability is, I don't
know if I can do this.
I don't know if I'll be look good at it.
I don't know if I'll succeed.
People
Rupert Isaacson: might laugh at me.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
It's a more, and, and Brene Brown,
I'm sure who, you know who she is.
She did this whole study, which she
didn't wanna find out that vulnerability
actually makes for better relationships.
You know, that makes
for real relationships.
'cause you're a more authentic,
so the seals have a real
hard time with vulnerability,
Rupert Isaacson: authenticity.
Okay.
Jane Strong: Because they're
like, I got this kind of,
Rupert Isaacson: they've
gotta be like cartoon heroes.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
And that's, yes.
And so, so they are, uh, they wanna
control it and they don't wanna go there
if they, if they're gonna be vulnerable
or look stupid or look incompetent.
But the, but the other folks,
you know, you might have an
officer who's more like that.
But by the way, the other thing I would
say to anybody doing this is do not
have people know each other's ranks.
When they come in the group do
not, because what happens is then
they fall back into the hierarchy
Rupert Isaacson: naturally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jane Strong: And then as the facilitator,
I can't coach the E eight, the
sergeant, I can't because he's gonna
look stupid or she's gonna look stupid
in front of their, I can't do it.
I can't operate.
They can't operate.
They just boom, they just stack up again.
So we don't do it.
We get it on the, um, we
don't even, we take Did
Rupert Isaacson: you find that
out the hard way, by the way?
Jane Strong: Yes, very much the hard way.
I was like, okay, that's the
last time we're doing that.
Um, and so we don't, and we
asked them where they were,
um, what's branch of service?
We asked this on the, on the waiver, what
branch of service, where did you serve?
And, um, how long.
And that's, we have that information.
But they don't, they don't, if they
wanna talk about it at lunch, they
can, but they wouldn't talk about rank.
That wouldn't be what
they would talk about.
But if we, if they find out that's
not cool, um, and you can mix men
and women, it doesn't really matter.
That's not a problem.
Rupert Isaacson: Is it
not painfully obvious?
Like if you, if you are in
the British Army, it's very
obvious there's a class system.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Well, I think it is obvious.
And you know who's really
obvious to the horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Jane Strong: Because they,
Rupert Isaacson: that's interesting.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Because they pick up the internal
organization that an officer has.
I have a Arab Pinto who
asks a lot of questions.
You know, he asks a lot of questions.
He's a sharp dude.
He's a very smart horse.
And he asks, you know, if you don't
ask him the right way, he's gonna
be like, I don't know what you're
talking about, but when an officer
works with him, he's like, yes, sir.
He's so good.
Because he likes that.
There's, there is an internal organization
that an officer has through that
training, and I think I can tell, um,
and it's just funny, it's funny to
me, but, um, yeah, they, they, horses
like clarity and an officer's kind of
gonna be more clear in certain ways.
Um, so, you know, but when they come to
us, they're wearing t-shirts and caps.
You know, we don't, we don't, they
don't come any kind of external
signal, but I think the internal
signal is self-possession and what
I would call internal organization.
Um, so.
So we then go, they get
their hands on the horses.
We don't want that.
If we ask them to groom the
horses, which we used to do,
they'll get them really clean.
Rupert Isaacson: Bet they will.
Jane Strong: Like, I'm not done yet.
You know, don't worry about it, man.
You know,
Rupert Isaacson: don't bring me that
horse until I can see myself in its face.
Yeah, exactly.
Jane Strong: It's very funny.
But what happens with that, when
we do have them get their hands
on them and they can groom them if
they want to, that's a thing to do.
Like, it's a way to connect.
And what happens with them is that
they've, they've, they get out of
themselves and into caring for another
and watching, and they'll say, well,
does he like this or does she like this?
And I'm like, well, what do you think?
How does, what are you reading
from what the horse is doing?
And they'll, oh, okay, I can
read the nonverbal as well.
And I can, I think he likes this.
And I'm like, okay, good.
And then if the horse puts her
head up or, um, you know, fidgets
or something like that, we know
that that's not a good thing.
And where do they like to be?
Where do they like to be touched?
And I'm like, do an experiment.
You know, we, it's very open-ended.
It's not controlling, we're
facilitating, we're not teaching.
Um, so people have the opportunity
to sense into their vulnerability or
sense into their fear, or usually not.
It's not so much fear, but sometimes
it is vulnerability and they'll jump
if the horse jumps, you know, and we're
like, how, what's, what's happening?
Rupert Isaacson: I do.
And I have lots of horses.
I jump when they jump.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like, oh, what are we doing?
But, um, yeah, so, so there are a lot of
things that go on in that sort of quieter
time that we give them to get familiar
and to get tuned in attuned to the horses.
So it's connection and attunement.
And then we ask, you
know, what do you notice?
And I will notice also we have, we,
we just lost this one horse who was
amazing, blue eyed with eyeliner
medicine hat, you know, gorgeous guy
with these big blue eyes that you
know, you can really see in what's
Rupert Isaacson: a medicine hat?
Jane Strong: Oh, it's a marking
on a pinto or a paint horse.
That's one ear Is brown.
Usually a big cap over one ear.
That would be called a medicine horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
What if it's both with a cap?
Jane Strong: That's different.
That's not the same.
It's a, it's a, um, I don't think so,
but it's all, it's a horse who had
been ridden by a shaman or a woman.
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
Okay.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
And it's, you know, it's a gift
Rupert Isaacson: we put looking
it up on, uh, Google as we speak.
Yeah.
I just learned something I didn't know.
That's really cool.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
So he had these blue eyes with
eyeliners, so he didn't look like that.
Watch eye spooky kind of look.
Right.
He just looked beautiful.
And he would, his eyes would
get like pinwheels if somebody
wasn't being congruent.
If they were acting okay, but
they weren't, he would raise his
head and fidget, you know, and,
uh, be look like looking at me
like help, you know, do something.
And so I would come over and this is
the real key role that the horses play.
One of them is I would ask the
person, what are you noticing?
And they'd be like, nothing, I'm fine.
And the horse would be fidgeting
with his head up in the air
and I would say, are you sure?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I'm fine.
And I'd be like, well, the
horse is kind of fidgeting here.
He's looking a little worried.
Are you sure?
And then they would be, no,
I'm actually really anxious.
I've been anxious for so
long, I don't even notice it.
Rupert Isaacson: I presume not
everyone's gonna admit to it though.
What, what do you do when people
just absolutely stubbornly
hang on to their thing.
Jane Strong: I, hang on.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Jane Strong: I hang on and I stay there.
Rupert Isaacson: So you just become
a, a bit of a terrier at that point?
Jane Strong: I become curiouser.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Jane Strong: And curiouser and.
I keep going back to the
horse, like, well, he's kind
of fidgeting, he's worried.
He's, he's seeming to feel anxious.
Do you notice that in your, like,
I've got probes from my experience
as an ethnographic researcher.
I can, I'm good at probes without
being, staying in the That's
Rupert Isaacson: what she said.
Sorry.
Jane Strong: That's what he said.
Anyway.
Rupert Isaacson: Sorry.
Maybe three.
Yeah.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
But, but you know, you can, you
can work your, that, and this is
another thing where facilitating
is different from fixing.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: Or insisting.
It's like you, you stay in
the role of curious and Wow,
this is kind of interesting,
Rupert Isaacson: I suppose to, I
suppose to that somebody who is ego
defended, which most of us are, but
obviously the military promotes, if it's
about an animal, it's so much easier
to come off your quote unquote high
horse, no pun intended, than it if,
if it's about another person, right?
Jane Strong: Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
That's why trauma, that's why this
work works so well, because usually
it's not a horse or who's hurt you.
It's a person.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Jane Strong: It's not a horse.
And it's,
Rupert Isaacson: and nobody wants to look
like an asshole who's shitty to animals.
Um, yes.
Because you know, most of
Jane Strong: them
Rupert Isaacson: really.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Jane Strong: They usually like animals
because they trust them, because we do
trust animals because of their, they're
operating on their instincts and they
have a horses, a horse, and dogs.
They're
Rupert Isaacson: authentic.
Yeah,
Jane Strong: authentic.
And so congruence horses are
how they feel is what they do.
They're a hundred percent congruent
unless they're hiding an injury.
You know, they can be of course,
as, you know, stoic, but really,
if they're afraid, they can't
help but move their feet.
Rupert Isaacson: They can shove it.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Jane Strong: So we use that.
That's our way in.
That's our way in.
And they give us the entree.
Whereas if I was just a person saying,
Rupert Isaacson: this animal is
not a shame to, to show its fear.
And
Jane Strong: so, right.
So what a great model.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Jane Strong: What a great
model for authenticity.
And we, we take advantage of
that because that's our entree.
'cause these people don't know us.
I mean, if I said, are you anxious?
They'd be f you.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I'm
Jane Strong: fine.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm, mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: So the horses,
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
So that's,
Rupert Isaacson: and, and then,
then when you get them actually
quote unquote, working with the
horses, what do you, what do you do?
Jane Strong: Well, we ask them to
take them, to lead them around.
We have a particular way
of asking 'em to lead.
We use rope halters and we use mm-hmm.
You know, a loop in the line
and they can't pull them.
If they need to push them, they
can a little bit, but we mostly
want them to use their body energy.
They're all three centers.
Your head is where you're gonna go.
Your heart is your
connection to the horse.
Mm-hmm.
And your body is, how are we gonna go?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: And where, you know, and
how fast it's the impulsion part of it.
So we get, we start to
get them integrating.
Mm-hmm.
The three centers through
the moving the horses around.
And then we have, and they
don't, they can't hold them in
the knot, in the, in the line.
They have to hold, give them some
space, and they have to use their
body energy to move with the horses.
And usually they do.
They, they're they and, you
know, but some people are afraid.
They don't want to ask
the horse to do something.
So we work with that.
Or they ask them too much.
They're like, come on, let's go.
We're like, Nope.
So we, we are precise in how for
the horses benefit mostly, you know,
how are you moving with this horse?
Are you inviting, like
asking 'em to dance?
Or are you demanding?
That's not a collaboration.
We want you collaborating.
And so,
Rupert Isaacson: and are they, are they
leading them, say through labyrinth or
Jane Strong: Not at first?
Not at first.
Rupert Isaacson: We're, are you
building things that represent
life's obstacles that they want,
you know, that they're gonna.
Lead the horse through or Yeah.
Those sorts of metaphors or,
Jane Strong: no, we're
not using metaphors.
We don't do that.
We don't like that because these are
real things and they, the, and also we
find that, you know, if you say to a, a
first responder or a veteran, that horse
over there represents your isolation.
Rupert Isaacson: You
Jane Strong: know, this horse behind
this thing represents your barriers.
You know, a veteran is gonna
say, and I've heard them say it.
No, that's a horse behind a barrier.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Jane Strong: Don't tell
me what this means.
You don't, we don't tell
'em what things mean.
What we do is we get 'em to do
stuff and then when they finish
we ask them, how was that for you?
What did you notice?
And then they're full of metaphors.
Okay.
Or life-based situations like,
wow, I can see how I push too hard.
I can see where I stand back too much.
I can see where I don't, where I'm
not sure or clear, mostly clear.
Um, I learned so much because I,
and, and the main thing they say is,
I can't believe I got this animal.
I don't even know.
'cause they're used to dogs.
Right?
You'd have to know a dog for get
to get the dog to come with you.
Unless the dog is one of those, you
know, dogs that jumps into anybody's car.
But they're used to the loyalty thing.
They're not used to in the
moment, response to who I
am and how I am right now.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
I have seen good work done with,
actually not so much with veterans,
actually with, um, so we, we work, our
organization works as you know, many
countries and we work in Germany with
the Bundes fair, with the German army,
with, um, people who are still serving.
Mm-hmm.
Um, quite often Special Forces families.
And the difficulty with the
special forces in Germany is
they're not supposed to have 'em.
So I'm not even supposed to say that they
exist, but everyone knows that they do.
So, but because they're not supposed to
exist or until recently, they weren't
supposed to exist because of the post
World War ii, you know, agreements
that were, um, when they come back
from the deployment, they're really
not allowed to talk about it at all.
Jane Strong: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Um, and uh, black
bylaw not so even if they wanted
to, they're sort of not allowed to.
And I've seen in the, every year
we do a sort of two week, um, thing
for those guys and their families.
Um, we work in different ways with the,
so anyway, but I've seen very good work
done with them, actually, not by me,
but by some others where they did get
them to, particularly as a couple, if
they're there with their wife, um, we
might have their kids off playing, doing
all sorts of other stuff that we do.
We do.
And then there's a couple of people
working with the couple, and they
might build a sort of obstacle course
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And go through it
together, but they're not being told that.
Yoga ball is your dad, um,
or anything, um, right.
They're just, I suppose, being invited
to create some obstacles together.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Well that would be, that
would be collaboration.
That would be collaboration
between humans, which is great.
We could, we, we work, we did some work
with couples, which I'd like to do more
of this year with first responder couples.
They were blown away by what
they saw about each other.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
' Jane Strong: cause they come home
and they don't talk as, you know.
Um, yes.
So I think it's fine to do those things.
I think, uh, anyway, we walk
around, then we ask them to do, you
know, like a circle with inviting
the horse forward in a circle.
And that's a big thing.
I had a vet do that
with one of our horses.
And when he got finished,
he was like, oh my God.
And I said, what?
And he said, I was so focused
on that horse that I had no
idea what else was going around.
And he said, my whole life is about
all this distraction and attention.
And he said, the last time I felt
like this, I, I saw a bullet leaving
the chamber of my gun in a firefight.
That's the last time I was this focused.
And he said, and I said to him,
yes, and this time you were safe.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Jane Strong: And he was like, oh my God.
I did what I didn't think
I could ever do again.
And this time I was safe.
That's called uncoupling.
That's a lot of what we do.
You can bring up your
energy and not be in danger.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Rupert gets his
phone out, looks up uncoupling.
This is great.
I learning so much.
Jane Strong: That's a
great, it's a great term.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Do you do all this in
round pens and arenas?
Do you go out into the forest?
Jane Strong: Yeah, we go out.
So after they're comfortable, we wanna
make sure people are safe and comfortable.
You know, we don't want to
just throw them out somewhere.
Although we, I suppose we could,
but we go out, um, we stay in
the round pen the first session.
So we do the morning with the horses,
then we have lunch and do this,
this, uh, emotional agility thing.
And we talk about fear and
vulnerability, the first one.
And um, the second, and
these are very funny.
They're use movie clips that are
all about emotions, of course.
So we use the Princess bride for fear,
you know, Ingo Montoya, you know,
you kill my father, prepare to die,
and then Christopher guest runs off.
And so that's our fear thing, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Jane Strong: We used very entertaining
movie clips 'cause we're not pointing
it out as a bad thing, we're just
saying it's, it's what happens.
So we do fear and vulnerability,
have lunch, a really healthy,
good lunch, and then, uh, go back
out and work with the horses.
So we brought them to that
place as which you call BDNF.
Right.
So they're ready to learn.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And for those people who dunno what BDNF
is 'cause brain derived neurotrophic
factor, which is just a sciencey way of.
Identifying a protein.
It's a protein that is a building
block that becomes a stem cell that
becomes a neuron, billions of them.
And you get them when you move and
problem solve at the same time.
So think dance, think sport, think
play, think riding a horse, think
walking across uneven ground even.
Um, all of these things will
make your brain get smarter.
Pretty similar speed, right?
Jane Strong: So the movement is there.
The movement is there in the morning.
So they are settled, they feel safe,
they feel actually they've done something
they didn't think they could do, which
is probably another part of this.
Like they've done something
they never thought of or they
didn't think they could do.
And the brain, just like basic training,
you know, when they almost kill you
every day, then the next day you wake
up and your body goes, oh, I didn't die.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: I guess I
could do something else.
You know?
Mm-hmm.
And so it's that sort of it
experiential learning that helps
people settle down and feel surprised
and happy with themselves, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Joyful about, wow, I never
thought I could do this.
And that animal followed me
without me knowing who that is.
And I didn't demand it.
I asked, it's all these things
that go against the, the yes no
black, white, military type stuff.
So,
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
So then people are with
you for how long, roughly?
Jane Strong: Well, they're there
for, then we go back out, work
with the horses in the afternoon.
Then the next time they
come up, same thing.
We, we check in how, what did
you notice based on the work?
Do the body scan, the
joint warmup, go out.
They let that, we let them take the
horses out, start a little bit in
the morning with the connection.
Then we go out, down the road into the
fields, um, asking them to do the stop
start thing with their body and breath.
That's a big part of it.
Not demanding and pulling, like, you know,
drop your energy down, use your breath.
And then we go out, down the
road and across to a field, and
then the next time they come,
we go out to an obstacle course.
So if they're fit and they want to,
they can jump over the jumps in hand
with the horses, which the horses love.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: Um, go around the
trees, do figure eights around the
trees, but it's all on the ground,
you know, and we, and we do that.
And then the last time we
do liberty work with them.
So we have the horses going around and
then coming back in, um, by choice, you
know, so the horses are free to choose,
which blows people away that they choose
to walk with them if they invite them
in the way a horse, they understand.
So
Rupert Isaacson: we work with that.
All of these sessions, uh, unfold
over how long, how, uh, weeks,
Jane Strong: four weeks.
If they can.
Um, sometimes we do them once
every two weeks, depending
on if they're still working.
They can't just get once a week off.
Yeah.
You know, we do it according to
their schedules or there could
be a whole over a whole weekend.
But that's a lot to take in.
And I love the soak time.
Yeah.
I love soak time for them and
the practice in their real lives.
You know, like how did
you do, what was fear?
What was vulnerability to you this week?
How did you do it?
Rupert Isaacson: And do you see
them again after the four weeks
that they've spent with you?
Jane Strong: Sure.
If they want to, if they wanna come
back and they wanna, they, if they
wanna volunteer or they wanna, if
they're good with the handy with
the horses and they get really
handy with the horses in four weeks.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Bet they do.
Jane Strong: They can come
back if they wanna do that.
And, um, we're thinking this year of doing
more of a graduate thing and adding more,
I wanna add more of the stuff in anyway.
For sure.
Mm-hmm.
Because I think, because one of my first
responders is my ambassadors said to me,
I think these guys are ready to do more.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Jane Strong: I think they wanna
do more complicated stuff.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Jane Strong: So then I
meet you, then I meet
Rupert Isaacson: you.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It's, no, you'll
turn them all into wonderful
classical trainers very fast.
Yeah.
And, um, then you'll see your
horses turn into meta horses
because that's more BDNF for them.
Right.
And the whole thing's just a positive
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Thing.
But that's why we all need to meet each
other because all of these ways that we
have of working are very complimentary.
Yes.
I'm busy.
I've been taking notes from you.
I've been like, Ooh, I can have a
bit of that, you know, from Jane.
Yeah.
Um.
That's the whole point that
we, we shouldn't sit in silos.
And, um, yeah.
When people do my programs or our
programs, I don't really mind whether they
do them this much or this much, because
really what they are is a set of tools.
It's up to you to decide how relevant
are the tools in what context.
You know, only you can
make that ch that call.
Yeah.
It's not some rigid thing.
Um, but you've mentioned
a couple of things now.
Um, you talked about, we,
so talk about your team.
How have you built your team?
Who is your team and how big are your
groups and what's your structure there?
Yeah.
Jane Strong: Um, my first, well my partner
is David, who is a, um, he's an LCSW.
What's that?
And what's that?
Came in.
A licensed clinical social worker.
Okay.
But he came into this, he, he
became a social worker after he
started the work with the horses.
I met him training in Tucson.
We were in two different classes,
but he was from the East coast.
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, he was
also doing Linda Koff thing?
Jane Strong: Yeah, he did.
Okay.
And he was out working in Montana
with some horses in this person,
Leslie Desmond, I don't know if you
know who she is, but she's, I do
Rupert Isaacson: know Lizzie Desmond.
Yeah,
Jane Strong: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
Jane Strong: yeah.
So she was working with him and she was
going, I don't know, you've got something
with horses that's really good, but I
don't think you're supposed to ride them.
I don't think that's what this is.
And somebody else said, oh yeah, that's
that Linda Hanno shit that he's doing.
So he was like, well, who's, who's that?
So he met, he called up to Tucson
and Linda answered the phone, and
then he got into an apprenticeship.
Okay.
So I met him through that.
Rupert Isaacson: Got
Jane Strong: it.
And, um, that's, he lived
in Brooklyn, of course.
No horses.
And so we just stayed in touch.
And um, then in 2008 I said,
this is what we're gonna do.
All right.
We to move up here.
And he was gonna move up here anyway
'cause he was having a family.
So he moved up and then we started
this and we created a curriculum.
Um, we manualized the curriculum and we
created it and we, you know, we've tweaked
it and made it actually more robust
because people can handle learning more.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: Um, and we really
wanna be transparent with
people about what are we up to?
What are we doing?
And so
Rupert Isaacson: can people
access your curriculum?
Like if someone's listening to this
now, can they contact you and can
they get your curriculum on online?
Do they have to sign up for a course?
How, how would someone
find your curriculum?
Jane Strong: You would sign up for
the training or you would sign up?
Actually what you would do is sign
up for what we call an inside the EQU
effect, which is in a weekend thing.
Mm-hmm.
That's learning, doing it yourself.
So we want all of our facilitators
to have walked the walk.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
You
Jane Strong: can't just read it and do it.
It's like,
Rupert Isaacson: how many
facilitators do you have?
Jane Strong: Um, I think
we have about 40 so far.
Rupert Isaacson: Not necessarily
working with you people that
you've trained who work in other
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Jane Strong: I've got somebody coming
in October from North Carolina.
Got it.
Um, somebody coming from Maine.
Somebody coming from Massachusetts.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So somebody can come to you,
learn this, take it back to their
Jane Strong: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Thing.
Imp and implement it.
Jane Strong: Yes.
Yes.
Got it.
And it's a, it's a pretty rigorous
course because we really want people
to be able to know what their triggers
are, you know, 'cause you, you know,
we like people to work in pairs if we
can, but we also really want people
to know what gets you, when do you,
when are you putting more effort
into this person than the person is?
How do you know you are?
I'm sure you know about that.
You know,
Rupert Isaacson: I, I I totally do.
I'm just looking at your website here.
It's, it's very good.
So, just for people that are
intrigued, um, I see that
you've got workshops coming up.
Jane Strong: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: We are in, uh, what
are we in, uh, April, 2026, but it's
more up to date than our website is.
You've got, you know,
your stuff from May, uh,
Jane Strong: July,
Rupert Isaacson: July, uh, October,
um, courses that people can come
and do, and lads, I've, I've
hung out with Jane for a weekend.
Um, we, she came and did a workshop with
me down in Texas, and I know the quality
of her work with horses and so on.
So I, I would actually heartily
recommend, um, picking up one of these,
uh, one of these workshops that they're
offering there at the EQU Effect.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
I think the one in May is
gonna be about somatic.
I, I talked to you a little
bit about the Enneagram.
Yeah.
Which I'll, I'll talk to you
more about that in October.
But the Enneagram is a system
that also uses the three centers
of intelligence, how we overuse
it and underuse it, and I'll, can
Rupert Isaacson: you just
talk to us a bit about it now?
Jane Strong: It's, yes.
It's a very, very old, old system that
was designed to teach people who were
meditating and, you know, doing whatever
they were doing in the desert to.
Um, learn about their blind spots.
Okay.
What gets in the way of presence?
What gets in the way of God?
What gets in the way of whatever
tradition you come from?
And so I started to study it in
1996 and it's been a centerpiece of
the things, the way I see things.
Mm-hmm.
And it helps me ask good questions,
really good questions of people
because I can see sort of what
type they are, but mostly I can see
what center they operate from more.
Mm-hmm.
And so I can tailor questions
to them, whether it's clients or
facilitators, um, helps me track.
And I also teach it, I teach
it in the corporate world.
I do that, uh, on the side, so.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Jane Strong: Anyway, it's a very cool
system and this person is coming in in
May who's a somatic Enneagram person who
uses the body to track defense mechanisms.
And so the people coming in that are
usually Enneagram people who know,
who are interested in this, and then
we're gonna add the horses to it.
Got it.
So I'm starting.
Got it.
I'm starting to collaborate and pepper
in the horses to everything else you
do because it's good for everybody.
Right.
That was the message.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Um, okay.
And I'm, I'm sort of looking, you,
you've got a fairly good team there.
Yeah.
Um, how do you fund it?
People always wanna know.
Everyone funds their things differently.
Jane Strong: I get dressed
up when I go to the S market.
I, I cultivate donors.
My partner John, is a, um, is
a, uh, a at the country club.
He's got a lot.
He, he's a really good golfer and he's
got a lot of local, a lot of friends
around here who are, you know, people with
money who have the wherewithal to donate.
And, um, they're in the, they're
not, they're not in the learning
or earning part of their lives.
They're in the returning
part of their lives.
So
Rupert Isaacson: philanthropy.
Yeah,
Jane Strong: philanthropy.
So we do that.
And I also have a grant from
the VA for the first time.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that was gonna
be my question because I, when, when we
were first working, I don't know, 500
years ago in Texas, um, people said,
oh, you should apply for a grant from
the va, you know, and because we were
already actually working with veterans
and first responders, we just weren't
Jane Strong: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Getting funded for it.
And, um, we looked into it and I
kind of like fell at the first fence.
I was like, how, how am I gonna, I'd have
to devote, you know, 25 years to figuring
out how you go through this grant process.
Um, but then I would find, meet
some people who seem randomly
seem to get it, like my neighbor.
Who had a, a small therapeutic practice,
got like the 70 5K grant from the va.
I was like, how did you even do that?
And she said, Aaron sub Rupa.
I don't quite know.
We just sort of got a bit lucky.
But then they, so this is a notoriously
opaque organization to deal with.
I, I know there's gonna be people
listening and watching who are trying to
Jane Strong: navigate.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Talk to us a little bit about
that process, if you can.
Well,
Jane Strong: yes.
The process is a nightmare.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Jane Strong: A nightmare.
But I hired a grant writer
and I sicked her on it.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Jane Strong: And I said, I
can help with the narrative.
I can help with the narrative.
'cause I'm a good writer.
I know what I'm talking about.
I know this program inside out.
We've been doing it for 12 years.
I know what I'm doing.
Mm-hmm.
I know how to explain it.
Mm-hmm.
So I wrote, I helped a
lot with the narrative.
She did all of the work on
the budget, the allocations,
it's endless, endless details.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Jane Strong: And the accounting
for it is also endless.
So,
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
Jane Strong: It's a lot of work,
but it's, if you want it, um, they,
and they, what they're good at,
what they're really good at is, we
were granted it for this last year.
Then the second year is easier.
Then they're like, okay, time to,
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
Jane Strong: Time to reapply.
And then they actually give you
all this feedback on what took
away points from the first thing.
Rupert Isaacson: I see.
So it's the first foot in the door.
That's the hard
Jane Strong: It is the very hardest.
And if anybody wants help, I can help.
I can help because I know how to, okay.
I don't, I can tell you what you need to
do and I can tell you that it's hard and
I can tell you it's complex and stupid.
But if there, if you're, but the
deal is once you're in, you're in.
Rupert Isaacson: I see.
Jane Strong: And
Rupert Isaacson: that is good to know.
That is good to know.
So it's worth people while
to go through that painful
transitional stage.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
I mean, I was so mad because of the rules.
I don't like the rules.
That's part of the fun of being an
outsider is I don't like the rules.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And I don't, I don't do the rules
unless it's really worth it.
And in this case, because I
had the help of this grant
writer who was like, calm down.
Mm-hmm.
Just calm down.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: We can do this.
And I gave her all the data.
You have to have a budget, you know,
you have to have all this detail stuff.
That's the foundation, that's
the basement part of it.
You have to have those ducks in a row.
'cause that's how they operate.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jane Strong: And they gave
us a grant and they said, but
we're not paying for lunches.
Take that out of there.
I was like, okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Okay.
So people do want a
little bit of guidance.
You can give them that.
Jane Strong: Absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Absolutely.
Okay.
That's very valuable.
So did you hear that lads,
as Jane gets 300 emails
suddenly, Rupert, why do you, why'd
you put that out there on the internet?
But it, I guess the point with that,
and what I respect about that, Jane,
is that, you know, and I know that,
um, in this equine consisted world
that we are part of, there is a lot
of factionalism and a lot of mistrust
from one organization to another.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Um, to our detriment.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: With a scarcity
mindset, which perhaps might have been
true in the early days, I don't know.
Um, but or true were, um, but I've
never found it actually to be true,
but nonetheless, that people won't work
together because they feel that, you know,
there's a limited pot of money and if you
get something, they don't get something.
And although I, I fundamentally
disagree with that mindset, you
can't, that's like arguing with fear.
You can't argue with fear.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But there's relatively
few people who will offer to mentor
people from quote unquote competitors or
potential competitors that are coming up.
But my my feeling is that you have to,
and you must, because even if we had.
A center, an equine assisted center every
five kilometers, which would be great.
Uh, we wouldn't even scratch
the surface of the need.
Jane Strong: No, I think that's right.
Rupert Isaacson: And not everybody
can have a big operation anyway.
Like some of our horse boy centers
see hundreds of kids a week.
They use tools that we've given them.
But I, I couldn't do that.
Jane Strong: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Um, that's not me.
Mm-hmm.
But I totally respect that.
Others can, but it means that there's
room there for everybody and if we
don't mentor each other, so, you know,
if, if you will mentor people and how
to get money, that is the single most
important thing for an organization.
Otherwise, it just doesn't function.
Yeah.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
And I think there's a, there's a, there's
another thing that goes on in our field.
Part of it is, well, the competitiveness
is exactly the same thing that you
talked about in the dressage world
or in any horse training world.
Rupert Isaacson: Any competitive,
Jane Strong: everybody has a, everybody
has a religion that becomes a cult.
And that's on the, that's on the trainers.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: That's on the trainers.
And you're not like that.
And I think that's really important.
And I could go down that road 'cause
I don't like what some people do.
I don't like clamping down on the horses
and making everybody wear helmets and
making it all about insurance and safety.
Hmm.
I don't like people saying, personally,
I don't like it when somebody
says we're doing equine assisted
psychotherapy so they can get insurance.
Yeah.
You know, and you're not, and I was
gonna say that about my partner David.
He's an, he's an licensed
clinical social worker.
When he came here to first with armed
with his information and knowledge,
it's kind of not his nature.
He's not a very, uh, fixer.
He's not a fixer.
But, um, he came in and started to talk
to some of these vets about their personal
history, which is the psychological part.
Right.
Your personal history and all that stuff.
And it just didn't fit because
the horses don't see the stories.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: They never see the stories
they see, how are you with me right now?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: And what you brought, the
things you carried into this place.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: Those are your things and
your stories and your ideas about who
you're supposed to be or who you can't be.
But the horses only see who you are.
And if you come in thinking that's all
there is without, that keeps us, I think,
all of us from trying something new.
From being a beginner.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Jane Strong: And from being a
Rupert Isaacson: back
to vulnerability again.
Yeah.
Jane Strong: And curiosity.
Mm-hmm.
If you don't, if you come with a bunch of
baggage about who you think you are and
all that stuff, it's really not helpful.
The horses kind of don't see it.
And, and so we work with
what's happening now.
What do you notice now?
Mm-hmm.
And I think that's the biggest part
of our training is we teach people
how to get there, how to be present.
I
Rupert Isaacson: think you Go ahead.
Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you
Jane Strong: just to track.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
You, you talked at the very beginning
of this conversation, um, about
curiosity and, you know, we've now
sort of reached the two hour mark and
it's really good that it's come back
to that because, so as, as we head into
the sort of final stretch here, um,
I wrote down a question which I think
I'm gonna ask you when you said that,
because curiosity is to some degree, um,
overridden or, uh, canceled
out or, uh, eclipsed in
organizations like the military.
Um, not entirely, not always,
not in every, but as a culture,
you're supposed to follow orders.
It's not questioned.
Um, then you are, if, if, if we accept
that our society is largely militarized,
that's what the corporate world is.
It's just a parallel reflection
of the military, really.
Jane Strong: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Um, we are told,
you know, from school age to be
less curious, not more curious.
Jane Strong: Yes.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: I think this
makes us uncompassionate.
Jane Strong: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Here's
my question to you.
Can you have compassion without curiosity?
Jane Strong: Well, you
certainly cannot have resonance.
You can't have, you can't have resonance
with that, which is an emergent quality,
that en gate, that involves curiosity.
It involves stepping into the
unknown, like, Ooh, what is that?
Oh, wow.
And there's appreciation, curiosity,
Rupert Isaacson: wonder, awe,
Jane Strong: wonder.
Awe.
I talk about awe a lot.
You know, I talk about a lot
of stuff I haven't said here.
Yeah.
But I talk about awe because
you're in this presence of this
big creature who you don't know.
How could you not be when you
see that power and strength
and the danger and the right
Rupert Isaacson: kindness and
Or is vulnerability, isn't it?
Yeah.
Jane Strong: Yes.
It's linked to vulnerability.
Exactly.
And so I think you, it's very hard to have
compassion without curiosity because how
do we know what matters to someone else?
How do we know?
How do we lump these people together,
those veterans with PTSD, those people,
those first responders, you know,
defund the police, you know, all this
stupid stuff as if they're monolithic
and not individuals trying to sort out.
And they do have psychological
stuff, and they do see therapists.
We see ourselves as compliments.
And we do see ourselves as
compliments to psychotherapy.
But our role isn't that, our
role is what's happening now.
What surprised you?
We always say that.
What surprised you?
You know, and people go, I can't
believe that horse did what I asked.
I can't now that's curiosity.
Right?
Wow.
How did that happen?
I didn't even know him.
Rupert Isaacson: He made
me think of, uh, CS Lewis.
Uh, surprised by joy.
Jane Strong: Yes.
Yes.
That's another one is surprise, right?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm mm Because that also
makes you vulnerable.
Joy, weirdly enough, makes you vulnerable.
Yeah.
And the, the, the finding
of the child within
Jane Strong: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Which of course
has never gone away, but instead of
just being the hurt, defended child
Jane Strong: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
that that joyful child.
The, the, the, the pre ponytail,
uh, shoplifting incident.
Yeah.
Version of Jane.
Jane Strong: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, yeah,
Jane Strong: yeah.
Totally.
Totally.
I was always curious.
I was always trying something new.
I was always doing whatever, you know,
riding the worst horse in the barn
and you know, just doing whatever.
And then all of a sudden
it just clamped down.
And I think that's where we all get stuck.
At some point, in some way in our
lives, we get told this isn't okay.
You can't be like that.
You have to do this, or whatever.
All the versions of it that happened
in a million different ways.
I'm sure a million different ways.
And the cost of being rebellious, the
cost of going against is expensive.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh yes.
Jane Strong: To our, to our nervous
systems, to our ability to relate
to our ability to be vulnerable.
Rupert Isaacson: And the
irony is the, the cost of not
rebelling is equally expensive.
Jane Strong: I totally agree.
I
Rupert Isaacson: totally damned
if you do, damned if you don't.
Jane Strong: I know I had this woman come
to see us and she was really curious.
She was really curious.
She was really open to the work.
She really did it.
And when she left she said, you know
what, I'm gonna go home and get a divorce.
And I was like, what?
That wasn't,
Rupert Isaacson: here's the way
of saying I'm not responsible.
Jane Strong: Right.
So I said, well, that really
wasn't the aim of this session.
And she said, yeah, but you know what?
I realize I've had enough
of going along to get along.
I've had enough.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Jane Strong: So you never know what's
gonna matter to people, but I, no,
Rupert Isaacson: I never do.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
I think that, yes, I think having both,
both curiosity and compassion, because
you can have curiosity that's dry.
You know, that's like an experiment.
Rupert Isaacson: Intellectual,
purely intellectual.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
That's true.
Yes, indeed.
You could have like uncompassionate
curiosity, like, I wonder what happens
if I pull this insect apart or do
this horrible thing to a person.
Right.
You know, we know that
that exists as well.
But that I think is a for,
you know, thankfully a.
An anomaly.
Um, you, you notice it if you see it.
Put it that
Jane Strong: way.
Yeah.
And the other thing that happens I
think just really quickly is that we
are so, uh, tied to licenses, licenses,
degrees, evidence based, you know,
Rupert Isaacson: insurance,
Jane Strong: stupid.
It's all this stuff that's, that
keeps us both siloed and dependent.
Silent.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Jane Strong: Silent.
And to keep us dependent on those things
for credibility when actually what I'm
looking for in facilitators is emotional
maturity and flexibility and willingness
to try, willingness to experiment.
Rupert Isaacson: Curiosity.
Absolutely.
Curiosity.
A hundred percent And not Yeah.
Not playing the God role.
Um,
Jane Strong: yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Which 'cause be being
a therapist gives you a certain power.
Power for us.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
It's not an equal play.
It's not a level playing field and a
facilitator walks with you like a guide.
That's our people are guides.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Interesting.
Yes.
Well, I I'm very grateful
that you had that shoplifting
incident when you were 13.
Yeah.
Because if you hadn't, I don't
think you'd be doing this.
And, uh, I, or, or you
wouldn't be doing it so well.
Um, so, you know, we,
we all benefit, uh, from
Jane Strong: that's why I wanted
to, I thought that, you know, it's a
very interesting, um, terrible, but.
Evocative and provocative,
you know, getting cast out
of the garden kind of thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, a hundred percent.
Um, absolutely.
You know, and it's happened to us all.
Jane Strong: Yes,
Rupert Isaacson: falls from grace
have happened to us all, and, um,
they're not, they're
not safe to talk about.
Um, so if you make yourself vulnerable to
talk about them, um, you do actually do a
great service and you take a great risk.
Um, you risk being judged.
You risk, you risk all the things
we know you risk, but if you take
the risk, you, you get the job done.
Um, so hats off and respect
for you for being so open.
And Thank you.
I'm grateful.
Um, interestingly, as you were
talking, you know, I've spent, as
you know, a lot of time with shamans.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, some of them have been
from horse cultures, and if you
are in Mongolia, you talked about
the medicine hat on the horse.
I quickly went and looked that up.
Oh, that's interesting.
Jane Strong: Did you, did you find it?
Rupert Isaacson: I did, I did.
In fact, apparently it is,
it is both ears, apparently.
It
Jane Strong: could be both.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And, and sometimes a thing here shield
and says a warrior horse as well.
Um, or that's just what Google told.
Just, just 'cause I got that.
Jane Strong: I'm
Rupert Isaacson: sure they're
Jane Strong: right.
I'm sure they're right.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Jane Strong: I'm sure they're right,
Rupert Isaacson: you know.
Um, but.
The, there is this concept, um, with Mongo
in Mongolia, and actually that's why we
have the name for our, uh, on the ground
trauma program, which is teaching the art
of classical training from the ground, the
in hand work, the long res, the lunging,
um, to people to rebuild horses that have
been broken as part of a therapy program.
Um, the therapeutic aspect sort of
speaks for itself, you know, um, the,
we called it takin because takin in
Mongo, in Mongolia, it's the word
that they have for what we call
the prosky horse, the wild horse.
Oh, so the horse, it was never tamed.
Um, largely 'cause it doesn't have a
wither and, um, so it's, it's not, it's
not really, you can't put equipment.
So for whatever reason people
never are a bit like zebras.
They never, um, tamed them.
And in Mongolia where they have all
their horses kind of live semi wild,
um, or they domesticated horses,
they reserve this name takin for the
horse that was never domesticated.
And it means honored one or revered one.
And I always liked that, given that
this was a culture that literally
eats, sleeps, drinks, horses, wears
them, you know, everything, everything.
Horse, they nourish you, they carry
you the lot, they the shelter over
your head, uh, the leather and um.
So that they had this still
this essential, um, respect for
the wild nature of the horse.
Um, I like that.
And then of course, they have a
shamanic concept called the wind
horse, which is your luck, your mojo,
your, your, uh, life force really.
Um, and that can wane or wax and
the intercession of a shaman.
Tibetan Buddhism has this too.
And there's a big correlation
between Tibetan Buddhism and,
and uh, Mongolian shamanism.
Um, because Tibetan
Buddhism is very shamanic.
Um, and uh, that's sort of why
everyone in Mongolia is Buddhist.
'cause Tibetan monks wandered over the
al Plateau in the 16 hundreds and said to
the most violent culture on the planet,
Hey, what about this Buddhism thing?
And everyone kind of went,
oh yeah, that's a good idea.
And like stopped killing everybody
in life's generation, you know?
It's amazing.
Jane Strong: When, when was that?
Rupert Isaacson: It was
in about the 16 hundreds.
It was one of the great, it's one of the
great unsung, um, achievements of humanity
is that the most violent culture on the
planet, which every couple of generations
would explode out of the central step
and kill everybody, would kill everybody
from the Pacific to the Mediterranean.
Right?
And then, oh, that's a bit tiring.
So then you sort of go back to your,
your homeland, you know, and then.
Two generations later,
do we kill everybody?
And this just went on and on and on.
You, you know, the Huns and the Geis,
Kahan and Kla Khan and Tamerlan.
And these are just the ones
whose names we can remember.
And somewhere in the 17th century, these
blokes from over the Al Plateau kind of
went wandering in there, went all lad's.
Anyway, there's this thing called,
uh, Buddhism and you kind of
gotta be nice to each other.
And everyone kinda went, yeah, like that.
It's a little bit like our post World
War ii, um, world order, which flawed
as it is, has managed to maintain a
piece that is unusual on the planet,
which we are now tampering with.
However, yeah, we'll
miss it when it's gone.
Um, but these were great.
These are great achievements of humanity.
And anyway, so the wind horse is
very much a, a living concept when
you, uh, are consulting with a
horse shaman, a shaman from the
horse tribes on the Mongolian step.
I feel that that's kind of
what you are doing, Jane.
Um, I feel that you are
restoring people's windhorse.
Hmm.
And I think that that work
that you did with Linda Kahan
of, um, birthed that in you.
But I think the suffering that you
had with that sense of rejection and
the withdrawal of that parental love
after being set on the pedestal.
And, um, all of these things sort of
qualify you, you know, in this weird
way to have this compassion, but to
help alleviate suffering, but really to
restore people's self-respect, self-worth,
um, their wind horse, their mojo.
Jane Strong: And their curiosity.
Rupert Isaacson: And their curiosity.
So I don't have a hat, but in the
absence of a hat, I'm going to use
this coffee mug with a fox on it.
I'm gonna take my hat off to
you because I Medicine hat.
That's my medicine hat.
Yeah.
It's got, got a fox on it.
Um, because seriously, um, all
flippancy aside, it's important
work and those people that you're
working with, um, particularly the
first responders, we rely on them.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Easy
to take 'em for granted.
Easy to denigrate them.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Think
Rupert Isaacson: easy to say, oh, the
local police department's corrupt.
What are you gonna do
if they're not there?
Jane Strong: Yeah.
That's what we said at our,
an event we had two years ago.
My, one of my board members whose
son is a Navy Seal, said, why
don't you talk about real impact?
So I looked up the number of 9 1 1 calls
in Litchfield County, which is a quiet
county in Connecticut, 80,000 a year.
120,000 in Dutchess County.
Right.
Over in New York State.
These aren't even urban areas.
Rupert Isaacson: No.
And these are quite wealthy areas too.
Yeah.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Right.
So that's 80,000 calls that
these folks get up and go to not
knowing what's gonna be there.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Jane Strong: Sometimes alone.
And guess what?
Guess who benefits?
Not just them?
Us.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.
Jane Strong: From this work, from
if you're on the floor, you can't
get up if your house burnt down.
Who, who do you want that person
to have had a good night's sleep.
Yeah.
You want them to have a good
relationship with their family.
You bet.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Jane Strong: So it's that kind of
impact that we're also talking about.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Happiness and joy.
If, if they haven't got wellbeing, how
they, how can they transmit it to you?
Yes.
In your time of need.
Yeah,
Jane Strong: that's right.
Just like you said about the, the therapy
horses, if they've got two sidewalks
and somebody at their head, and one of
one of our board members was involved
with PATH for a long time, and she
said if a horse pinned his or her ears,
we'd go knock it off, not what's up.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And certainly no work in between the
clients to say, how can I help you?
Or making sure that the work with the
client is actually helping the horse.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Which isn't
that hard to do, honestly.
Jane Strong: No.
And I have a good friend
Rupert Isaacson: who's have
to kind of want to Yeah,
Jane Strong: yeah.
I know.
I have a good friend who's an animal
communicator who just wrote a whole
guide for this, for the volunteers
and staff, uh, which I'll send to you.
I'll send this to you because it's
for any and all therapeutic riding
places where or therapeutic places with
horses, how to be with them mm-hmm.
In between, right From the
time you walk into their stall.
Mm-hmm.
How to be with them and how to make
their job easier by make, giving
them a connection with someone who,
because they see so many people.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm mm
Jane Strong: And they're, instead of
the centerpiece, they're the object.
They're the means by which,
as opposed to the centerpiece.
And that's not right for those horses.
And I think this needs to, there's another
thing that needs to change, you know?
I
Rupert Isaacson: couldn't agree more.
Jane Strong: Yeah.
I'll send you the, I'll
send you this thing to you.
'cause she's just finishing the
final touches on it and it's great.
I read the whole
Rupert Isaacson: thing.
What's
Jane Strong: her name?
Her name is Nicole Bur Holzer.
Rupert Isaacson: Bur, that's
Jane Strong: another German girl.
You can speak
Rupert Isaacson: here.
That's, well that's, that's wood.
Uh, Birchwood, uh, Burke
is birch and Holz is wood.
And maybe the person who
works the birch B holz at LLZ.
Yeah, that sounds like something we might
wanna get on the, on the show and chat to.
Jane Strong: Absolutely.
Yeah, she's wonderful.
She's terrific.
And she just wrote this whole
thing and I helped her, I did a
little bit of editing on it, but
it's a really good piece of work.
She did.
Really good piece.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, cool.
Thank you.
Alright, Jane,
Jane Strong: thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: I think,
I think we'll wrap it up.
It's been brilliant.
Um, people know where to find you.
Just tell them your website.
Jane Strong: Yes, it's, um,
the THE Equi, E-Q-U-U-S, the
Latin word for horse effect.
EFFE ct.org.
Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.
Okay.
And they can reach you
there, email, all of that?
Jane Strong: Yes,
Rupert Isaacson: yes.
I've been looking at the website's.
Great.
Jane Strong: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: thanks.
Jane Strong: It's new.
It's brand new, so
Rupert Isaacson: yes, it's, it's
makes me realize that I'm maybe
need to update mine a little bit.
Jane Strong: Well maybe consolidate
a few of your 3000 websites into one.
Rupert Isaacson: We grew
organically, what can I say?
But no, it's, it's definitely it's time.
It's, it's, you're not the first
one to say, uh, you we need
to consolidate a little bit.
Yes, we can.
It's
Jane Strong: like, where do I go
touch?
No.
Anyway, thank you.
Thank you very much.
It was terrific to see.
Talk to you and
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
All right, I'll see you and
I'm gonna go up there in
October and we'll see you then.
Um, and, um, maybe in a few months
let's come have come back on the
show and let's talk a bit more
Jane Strong: for sure.
Thank you so much.
Rupert Isaacson: All right, my friend.
Okay.
I
Jane Strong: don't have any balloons
Rupert Isaacson: till then.
Yes,
Jane Strong: bye.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
Bye bye.
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