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What happens when scientific curiosity collides with entrepreneurial spirit? Dr. Charlie Landis shares his journey from studying geochemistry to becoming the Chief Technology Officer at Integrity Biochem. With over 35 years of experience in the industry, Charlie elaborates on how his unique ability to connect disparate datasets has driven innovations in oilfield chemicals and beyond. This conversation reveals the process behind developing IBC’s first-of-its-kind encapsulation technology, which enhances hydrocarbon production by mitigating reservoir clogging with a unique polymer chemistry.
Host Victoria Meyer and Charlie discuss Integrity Biochem's strategic expansion into biosurfactants, an area sparked by an emergent young scientist during the COVID-19 pandemic. With insights into navigating new markets and valuing scientific innovation, Charlie reflects on the 'unseen challenge' of combining commercialization with scientific inquiry. Their discussion unfolds essential advice for young professionals, emphasizing passion, informed decision-making, and readiness to leap on new opportunities. Tune in to discover how Integrity Biochem continues to set a benchmark in chemical sustainability and innovation.
This week, we explore these topics in detail:
- The journey from scientific curiosity to commercial innovation and what it requires.
- The demands for building a successful startup in the chemical industry.
- Decisive leadership during uncertainty and balancing long-term vision with immediate challenges.
- What it takes to transition from familiar markets to entirely new ones.
- Scientific career success: reliable expertise, passionate dedication, and informed decision-making.
Killer Quote: “You have to have some level of passion that makes your commitment insoluble over time... and then you must have a fear of failure that is less than your joy for success.” - Dr. Charlie Landis
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Creators and Guests
What is The Chemical Show: Where Leaders Talk Business?
Looking to lead, grow, and stay ahead in the trillion-dollar global chemical industry? The Chemical Show - the #1 business podcast for the chemical industry - is your go-to resource for leadership insights, business strategies, and real-world lessons from the executives shaping the future of chemicals. Grow your knowledge, your network, and your impact.
Each week, you'll hear from executives from across the industry - from Fortune 50 to midsize to startups. You’ll hear how they're tacking today's challenges and opportunities, their origin story (what got them here!), how you can take and apply these lessons and insights to your own business and career.
We talk:
- Business Transformation
- Innovation
- Digitization of business
- Strategy
- Supply Chain
- and so much more
Founder and host Victoria King Meyer is an expert interviewer - who brings out the best in each guest. She gained her industry experience at leading companies, including Shell, LyondellBasell and Clariant. Today, she is a high-performance coach and advisor to business leaders in chemicals and energy, as well as the host of The Chemical Show podcast, and founder of The Chemical Summit.
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Welcome to The Chemical Show, the
podcast where Chemical means business.
I'm your host, Victoria Meyer,
bringing you stories and insights
from leaders driving innovation and
growth across the chemical industry.
Each week we explore key trends,
real world challenges, and the
strategies that make an impact.
Let's get started.
Victoria: Welcome back to The Chemical
Show Where Chemical Means Business.
Today we are continuing on our theme
of sustainability and innovation.
Green and bio.
As we continue throughout the,
the month of April and today I
am really excited to welcome Dr.
Charlie Landis, who just literally
just retired as the Chief Technology
Officer of Integrity Biochem.
Charlie has a wealth of experience
in the industry, 35 years in
energy and chemicals, including at
Halliburton, before joining and.
Starting really being part of the startup
team for Integrity, biochem, developing
the first generation technology and the
second generation and commercializing it.
And as we know, this whole journey towards
sustainability and innovation is not easy.
Charlie's gonna share some of
those insights, some of the
biggest questions and decisions
that he and the team have to make.
And that may be, great advice for you
guys that are listening and more so.
Charlie, welcome to the Chemical Show.
Charlie: Uh, thank you Victoria.
Thank you for your
interest in IBC as well.
Victoria: Yeah, absolutely.
So excited to have you here today.
Let's just start talking about you.
What is your origin story?
How did you get interested in
this space of geochemistry?
And more, right?
I mean, you've been in
doing this for a long time.
Charlie: Yeah, geochemistry in
itself was a new field in the last
century, and uh, studied, uncommon
mineral and realized quickly that
it had to interact with water.
that became an entire field
called aqueous geochemistry in the
late eighties and nineties that
exploded into the geosciences.
And it just interested me that the
traditional geologic studies could be
expanded toward dynamic applications
in real time at the surface where
the, you know, the civilization
interacts with the natural materials.
And it just fascinated me from
the day I, you know, I took
my first pest in the class.
I was able to pass the test, which
also helps with the motivation, but
it was career driven by a passion of
trying to understand that, trying to
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: how these seemingly inert things
react with something as dynamic as water.
Victoria: Love it, love it, love it.
Okay, so, so geochemistry,
I mean, how did you even.
Think about getting into this field.
Is it, is it really that you were
interested in geology and rocks?
I mean, like, I don't know.
I've yet to figure out how somebody does
it, and yet obviously we need geologists.
We need people that understand rocks
and water and all this, this formation.
Charlie: Well, I, I'll give
you the solidifying story.
I was, it was in the mid 1980s and
I was watching, uh, American media,
and they announced when President
Reagan announced his plans for
the Star Wars Defense Initiative.
And I sat there as a graduate student
trying to understand how we could use
laser technology characterize rocks.
That's what a
Victoria: Hmm.
Charlie: is supposed to
do, is think of these.
Seemingly disparate ideas and try to
make value of them, and I drafted a
proposal for my advisor and he turned
that into a multimillion dollar, four
year dissertation project that utilized
some of the that were common at the time
for the first time, to understanding
how the organic and inorganic
chemistry of the rock changes when you.
Have a laser impinge upon that rock.
Victoria: Huh.
Charlie: incredibly nerdy, and
I'm sorry if it does, but those
are the types of things that
fascinate a scientifically cur mind.
And at the time I certainly had that.
So
Victoria: Yeah, I love that.
Charlie: I could tell you I, I,
they didn't make a movie called
Inception about that moment, but
that I wish I could have a movie
that explained how I felt that night.
I.
Victoria: Yeah.
You know, I think it's actually
fascinating 'cause we all get
sparked by something, right?
And I do think this idea of kind of two
ideas mashing together, that's where some
of the greatest innovations come from.
So you studied this and then you went
off and you worked for Halliburton.
Is that, did you.
Charlie: no, I, I should
give you my whole, whole
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: I, I have three
degrees in the geosciences.
I have a
Victoria: Okay.
Charlie: from Texas Tech I, my first
job was with an oil exploration company
called Orco Oil and Gas and their
research facility, and I was there
for five years studying the same rocks
that are currently being exploited.
Around the United States for
unconventional oil and gas.
then I was approached to take a job with
a minerals company in Chicago looking
at bentonite deposits around the world.
When I then, uh, shortly thereafter,
took a job in Australia trying to use
that expertise to take that material and
turn it into a water treatment chemical.
And when
Victoria: Got it.
Charlie: ha occurred, my parents
wanted me to come home and I landed
at Halliburton and I was there for
14 years, gratefully working in their
laboratory, understanding how drilling
fluids interact down hole primarily
in the non oil field applications,
but those properties and realizing the
value of taking a natural material and
turning into an efficient used for.
Economic benefit in drilling, whether
it was improved or recovery, more
water production from a water well.
Higher geothermal properties when you
had shallow geothermal heat loops, what
whatever the range of opportunities
were, they just basically asked us to
design a fluid to solve that problem.
Victoria: Yeah,
And then you went, how'd you
get to Integrity Biochem?
Charlie: the best thing in life is to
get that, shoulder tap by a friend and
our CEO who had an original dream of
having a vertically integrated, company
that was something that he could control
from the inception of the molecular
design to the retail sale to a customer.
And we spoke on the phone day just
after work some we got on the phone and.
Decided that we would do something
like this if the opportunity
ever presented himself.
And, we had, I don't know if you've
interviewed Jimmy Jet, but he's our
CEO and he was very good at explaining
his original vision for the company.
it just struck me as a great
opportunity at my stage in my
career to try something like that.
was absolutely a wonderful, opportunity
that I would not wanna pass up.
I would advise anyone if they
ever get that shoulder tapped
to at least take the phone call.
it changed my life with respect to
being able to take everything you've
learned along the way and turn it into
a, a vertically integrated, service
oriented technical product supply
company, which is what we have at the I.
Victoria: Awesome.
I love that.
and you know, one of the things I
like to say, and in fact you, you
know that tap on the shoulder, what
I always like to say as well is when
opportunity knocks open the door.
Charlie: You have to.
Victoria: the door, see what's
there and get ready to walk through.
So it sounds like you did.
So tell us a little bit
about Integrity Biochem.
'cause I've had actually, uh, Mike Ver
on the show a couple times in Chad Hall.
, but I always love to hear, your
point of view and not everybody's
necessarily familiar with the company.
Charlie: Great story.
Even in Cliff note form, it's a story of,
technical excellence, commercial bravery.
persistence, the type of things that,
sort of the building blocks for success,
we've taken a raw material that's been
overlooked or, undiscovered or poorly
considered or not considered, and
turned it into a commercially viable
product for range of applications.
And we control everything from the.
Chemical synthesis of the molecule or
the molecule packaging and delivery
and use of the molecule through our
channel partners in the marketplace.
It's a fantastic little story of
literally starting from an idea around
a fundamental understanding of the
chemistry and turning it and understanding
how it can be used in the marketplace
to create value for our customers.
Victoria: Got it.
So tell me more about this chemistry.
'cause I gotta be honest, I still
don't really understand what it is.
' it's a bio surfactant.
Is that right?
Charlie: Well, that's one
of our two core platforms.
So we've,
Victoria: Okay.
Charlie: we identified a molecule that has
unique capabilities in the sense that a
polymer, but it's not as big as the other
polymers that were used in the industry.
In other
Victoria: Yeah,
Charlie: A thousand times smaller.
Most of the polymers that are used
are large, heavier, long, linear
molecules or cyclic molecules.
Victoria: physically like
molecularly, it's a small molecule.
Charlie: Right.
Victoria: Okay.
Charlie: And then there was a body of
literature that came out that convinced
me when I, when Jimmy asked me to evaluate
the technology, there was a body of
literature that came out that said that.
In the 20 years while I was doing
something else, the rest of the
chemical world taught themselves
how to change those molecules to
make them even perform better.
And when we put those pieces together, and
Jimmy and I realized from our collective
experience in the industry that there
was a need for what that molecule could
be, uh, we decided to pursue the first
platform, and that is encapsulation.
Where we were able to make it like
minerals or attract two minerals that
would damage oil field production.
And if we could use that molecule
correctly, we could minimize that damage
unlock value for our customers that they
wouldn't have be expecting otherwise with
Victoria: Got it.
so your first product and your
first chemistry and first target
market was really oil field
chemicals, and this product does,
does it let you produce more oil?
I mean, what does it let you do?
Charlie: It has two or
three functioned at once.
Victoria: Okay.
Charlie: the reservoir
from clogging up itself.
If you can imagine, I dunno if you've
ever been to a dam and you would see
twigs come to the front of the dam
before they go out, the drainage pipe,
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: a reservoir, those
twigs pile up unless water goes
out the drainage pipe right.
So we keep those tweaks from ever
reaching the, the draining point,
um, drain pipe of that particular
dam and allow more oil or liquids to
be reproduced from that reservoir.
So that's a form of what they call
fines control, and that was an
undertreated need in the oil field.
That certainly adds value if you can
control that over a period of time to
allow more hydrocarbons to be produced.
Victoria: Interesting.
Charlie: and that's the primary use.
And obviously that has application
from everything from cat litter,
dust control, to fines, migration
on highway, on dirt roads, those
types of things all are equally
applicable in different environments.
But the, the founding application was in
the oil field, trying to keep those fines
from clogging the port roads reservoir.
Victoria: That's crazy.
So it's crazy.
That's really awesome.
And when I talked to your colleagues at,
uh, IIBC, in fact, Mike Ver, um, is one
that he introduced me to you and he was
just like, you've gotta talk to Charlie.
He's the most amazing guy.
Um, and he gives, he really is, you
know what, it is such a credit when
you've got people around you that.
Love you, that lauded you,
that really appreciate you.
So, um, I, you know, kudos
to you and to the IBC team.
'cause I do think, uh, you guys have
developed a great team there and you
know, you and Jimmy Jett, you were
there from the origins, Mike and
others credit you with identifying,
developing this core chemistry.
and you kind of talked a little
bit about how that comes about,
but you make it sound a little bit
easy to be honest, you know, well,
we saw this idea, and it worked.
It's more difficult than that.
I know it's more than difficult than that.
So what have you found to be really
critical in creating that success and,
and helping to develop that technology?
Charlie: Well, there are some
peculiar attributes of a good
mind that require, that are
Victoria: I.
Charlie: to take something like that
and turn it into, and I, I qualify
as having those peculiar attributes.
You have to be able, have to
be able to connect disparate
data sets and understand.
Things that are not in the same zip code,
but certainly could be a, a wonderful
vacation if you experienced it all at once
within two or three adjacent zip codes,
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: to you.
So there was clearly the ability to
understand that there was a market need.
Jimmy and I have been in the industry
for over 50 years We understood that
that was a problem and we felt, we made a
judgment that it was not being addressed
adequately with the existing chemistry.
So there was that obvious commercial
need, and we understood be customers
interested in solving that problem.
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: Then there was the
unique chemical structure.
You have to be able to recognize
uniquenesses in everything that
you do or the results that you
produce from your scientific work.
this chemical had a
unique chemical structure.
It was a lower molecular
weight, linear polymer.
And then lastly, I had the
access to one of the best minds.
I don't know if you've met one of our
research fellows, a fellow named Dr.
Ashoka.
Victoria: Mm
Charlie: trust him to understand.
He explained to me how well
they can manufacture this
molecule in the 21st century.
And then it became the final step was,
does IBC have the manufacturing expertise
and capital to make the product at scale?
So those four things all
Victoria: hmm.
Charlie: answered and agreed
upon to be readily available
to go ahead and move ahead.
'cause we were putting our hard earned.
capital and time and
effort into the project.
And once we came to that, it
was a Harry Truman decision.
I don't know if you ever read
about Harry Truman when he
Victoria: No, I haven't.
Charlie: when he made a decision, he goes
to bed and when he wakes up and he feels
good about it, that was the decision.
You never, you never look back.
So that's
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: final key is once you make a
decision around all the information you
think you need, you don't look back.
So we just, we just went
about our business to do those
things and get the job done.
Victoria: Uh, and, and I guess, you
know, to me it makes sense to a certain
degree that, where IBC started was
really the oil field because I do
feel like there's a whole lot of.
Cowboy risk taking that takes place.
Right.
And so sometimes it's, whether it's
in your DNA or whether it's in, just
the experience that you've got around
risk and reward and the ability
just to identify and take that risk.
Charlie: That's half the story.
So in, in the oil field, we
are a, a risk taking group.
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: particular case, it was
combined with, Warren Buffett's
belief that you only invest in things.
You know,
I read Warren Buffett's, uh,
newsletter every spring and one
of the first articles was he only
invest in stuff that he understands.
And you, if you're gonna start and
take a chance in this world, you
might as well start with something
you under, you think you understand.
So I put, we put those two things
together and Jimmy and I and a couple
other, the original founders, Mr.
Bryce Parker, we all got together and
said, this is something we can do.
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: And that's how
it, that's how it happened.
And it
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: and you're right, I, I
make it sound, uh, much simpler.
There were decades of scientific research.
You have to be able to synthesize
and understand the key parts of
that, the results of those research
efforts, put it together and bring
those disparate data sets together
and then decide what to do with it.
Victoria: Yeah.
What I think is interesting, Charlie,
and this is just an observation,
from, as you talk about your origin
story in combining lasers and rocks
and whatever, and figuring out that
there's money there and this, , and
what you're doing here with IBC.
I, I actually think there's like a
unique aspect to your ability to not
just do the science, but match the
science up with money and customer value.
'cause that's often does not
exist in the same person.
That's what creates conflict
across organizations, right?
When the researchers say, but
this is the best molecule.
Yeah, but nobody's gonna buy it.
And so figuring out how to
bridge the science and the
market can be really challenging.
How did you guys do that?
I mean, so obviously it sounds like you
kind of inherently understand that, but I
think this idea that you create something
I, I don't believe in the field of dreams.
If you build it, there is no
guarantee that they will come.
You have to figure out how to
identify or how to create that market.
How did that play out for you guys?
Charlie: Jimmy and I both had,
and Bryce and some of the other
officers in the company had decades
of experience understanding to
manufacture and mixed chemicals
one, one of the best untold stories.
Of our company is our Chief operating
officer who had never admitted
otherwise one of the more talented
people to blend water-based products.
this is a water-based product and not that
that was singularly the most important
thing, but everywhere you turned in IBC.
We went down a checklist of
things we needed to do, and
Jimmy was a master at this.
And I always say to people that,
he would struggle without us
and we would fail without him.
Uh, this is where it really showed up.
He was able to understand and
put these pieces together.
He had two or three pieces
of information for me.
He had his vast experience from
the marketplace to understand
the customer needs, and we have.
Clearly some of the highest quality
people in product manufacturer who
could give him the confidence to know
that we could scale up this scientific
phenomenon into a scalable product.
from the idea through the manufacturer
to the supply chain and delivering
product is one of the skills
that frankly beyond science.
It's about your ability to understand
commercial potential, and this is
where the credit really goes to
Jimmy and the team he has around him.
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: me, it was, for me,
it was a very, I have to tell
you the first decision I was
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: how easy it
was going to be for me.
Victoria, I'm gonna be honest now.
This, this is, uh, something
perhaps I shouldn't confess, but
Victoria: like confessions.
We could almost call this truth
Confessions of the Chemical Show.
How's that?
Charlie: it makes it so
facts.
The general nature of what's
needed to complete a, a process.
We know we needed, we knew we
needed able to keep these fines
from migrating in the reservoir
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: encapsulation,
which is our primary tool.
Is a known solution to do that.
Encapsulating things controls the movement
and timing of movement of particles.
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: in our case, we had
something that was in water.
We knew the reservoir.
There was, we were gonna be injecting,
makeup water into the reservoir and we
knew that we had a molecule that was
likely to perform in that circumstance.
And then we ran tests that the industry
uses as indicators of that performance.
And prove it to ourselves
and prove it to the industry.
So from my point of view, I had a world
class synthetic biochemist, and Dr.
Ashoka Midori.
I had, uh, a, a known commercial need.
I had a primary understanding
of what the minerals were
that were causing the problem.
So my checklist for success was shorter
than Jimmy's, but it did allow Jimmy to
say, okay, if I get that under control.
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: It sounds easier than it
was, but it really draws from the
experience we all had collectively
around the a sizing up an opportunity.
Victoria: was this technology
or these products and the pro,
you know, encapsulation, was
that already taking place?
So I know you said, you know, you guys
recognized and the market knew there
was an opportunity because there was a
problem, and so you could solve for it.
Were others already doing this?
Were you able to, you know, kind
of piggyback or follow the lead of
somebody that was already doing it?
Or is this completely new?
Charlie: We were able to translate
it from other areas of the industry.
So encapsulation is used
for other drilling app
Victoria: Got it.
Charlie: other different types of drilling
applications, but not in the category
of what was known as clay control.
So we, we basically injected this.
In a way that was unique.
And I, you know, people have
tried it in the past, but I think
in this particular case, they
didn't have the right ingredients.
They didn't have the right size
molecule, they didn't have the
ability to, you know, engineer the
molecule to perform the way we did.
So we had the, we had some differences
that allowed us to do that.
But yes, there we were, we were clever
enough to draw from the history of other
applications and bring it into our.
Victoria: how much of this is luck versus,
you know, kind of deliberate choices?
And I, and I ask that and, and I ask
that in a way because, it's really easy.
A lot of times to identify new chemistries
and to identify new products, right?
Humans and scientists and, and
people across the industry.
We're creative.
We can identify new things and in
isolation, in a lab, in a notebook.
As you're sketching out this idea, you
talked about crashing two ideas together.
Okay?
When you crash two ideas together,
in theory, you can come up with
something, and yet we know.
It is not easy to implement and it's not
easy to scale and take them to market.
So, so just, you know, I, I ask that
luck versus, not question, but maybe more
importantly, what advice do you have?
How could others be taking this approach
and applying it successfully elsewhere?
Charlie: Well, that, that
is a challenging question.
I, I will tell you that I personally
never thought it was lucky that we
were able to scale it up because I
have, I have great faith in the people
who run our manufacturing process.
They're phenomenally good
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: at manufacturing
water-based chemicals, and I, I.
As investor and as founder of the company,
that's one of our strongest pieces, so
I, I will tell you, there's no luck.
for a scientist to have invincible
value, have to have a passion that's
fueled by curiosity to constantly be
on the lookout for particular, or, you
know, unusual molecules that provide
unusually or rarely obtained results.
And that is a key thing.
And then you have to be
able to turn that into.
direct understanding how it may be
applied for an industrial benefit.
Those are the two things.
you're not at a red light and someone
doesn't beep your horn, turn left,
that means you're not distracted in
your subconscious enough to be thinking
about the, some of the weird, unique,
uncommon results of science that allows
for an opportunity to be discovered.
there's a certain element of that
that some people will call luck.
It was probably luck.
Jimmy and, and Charlie, although
I'll give, I'll probably say it was
more about persistence, but Jimmy
and Charlie came across this molecule
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: no one had yet observed or
examined for an oil field application.
We, we just got the first base first,
with this molecule for this application.
I would grant some degree of luck on
that, but I also know that luck was
driven by a passion and a curiosity.
Does look for a new molecule
that's been bypassed.
That had properties that people would
recognize once you were able to confirm
it for them, recognize as valuable.
So on the scaling side, BBC's
manufacturing capacity is second to none.
And I'm very proud to work
with our customer service and
manufacturing folks because of it.
And on the scientific side, I think
we're driven by a passion around our
intent to explore a molecule that's been.
To quote James t Curve to go where no
man's gone before with this molecule.
So there's a lot of that that I
think would be ascribed to luck.
But the reality is it's a luck
driven by passion and curiosity.
Victoria: Yeah, I love that.
And I think that's right.
I mean, I think, you know, the other
thing is what prepare luck is when
preparedness meets opportunity, uh, is
one way of saying it in your case, you
know, it's, , curiosity and, readiness.
Right.
Just being, being ready to do more.
Um.
So IB, c.
So we talked about, you know, kind of
this discovery of the first generation
technology and you guys are now working
on second generation technology.
tell us more about that and what that
is and how that, kind of builds on
each other, um, and where it's going.
Charlie: So that is, uh, the second
of the two strategic decisions.
I felt I, I was able to work
with Jimmy to and ex and develop.
Uh, it is the toughest decision
in my professional life.
I mean, achievement in the first
days is a very lonely moment.
And when you.
Discover something.
Whether you do it collectively
or by yourself, you have to
have the professional confidence
to recognize what you've done.
Victoria: Hmm.
Charlie: in the spring of 2020,
during year, the first days of
Covid, a great young, scientific
mind come into my laboratory and
propose an idea to synthesize.
category of bio surfactants.
He's a, a wonderful young fellow who
was able to recognize opportunity
in a molecule that hasn't been seen,
put together, assembled in a way
to make a, a product that has not
yet been developed in the industry.
That was during the covid period
when we were focused on other
things like company survival and
product changes in our product mix.
And we had to sequester him scientifically
to synthesize and commit to the
focus during those times, those
unsettling times develop this molecule.
And became our surfactant technology
and that scientist now spawned
an entire generation, probably
two or three decades worth.
Of basic scientific research that
allowed us to assemble the team that
Jimmy's assembled today to diversify our
company into this, bio surfactant space.
Victoria: Got it.
Charlie: that was a three to
six month period of securing the
focus of a great, young scientific
mind to synthesize this molecule.
In a way that we could present back
to the company in a time when they
probably wanted to talk about almost
anything else other than covid.
was an opportunity.
It was, was a challenge.
when you are a geologist and you
are being asked to make decisions
around a new chemical species.
must draw from every
resource available to you.
That's why I reached out to a
fellow like Mike, I hope you've
had a chance to talk to Dr.
Dan Dur.
He's a world surfactant, chemist.
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: then I had the folks in our
laboratory, all trained chemist who gave
me assurances that I could speak to Jimmy
about something that we had discovered and
now serve as the platform of opportunity
for our company for decades to come.
Victoria: Yeah.
SS
Charlie: but it was also among the most
stressful things I've ever had to work
Victoria: what, what made
it stressful for you?
Charlie: I have spent a lifetime looking
at rocks and particularly shales in the
unconventional rocks in the oil field,
and like I could talk to almost anyone
about those things, those materials.
I had to, I've never performed
a chemical synthesis to, to
Victoria: Hmm.
Charlie: I mean, I've made acid performed
acid based reactions in my entire life,
rocks and acid, all that type of stuff.
But the type of chemistry that led to
the discovery of our bio surfactant
represented a step change upwards
capabilities beyond our initial.
Technologies that were used to
build the company, basically forming
these encapsulating molecules that
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: So all of that was
an instantaneous challenge.
It came to us quickly.
wanted to manufacture it.
And our, our emphasis is expedited, but
careful, evaluation of our technologies.
then once we began to realize
the scale of the market that was.
Available to us outside the oil field.
added intensity.
You wanted to succeed.
You did not want
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: for the company, obviously.
So it was all these things combined,
the the covid year, unfamiliarity of
the science, the opportunity that could
quickly allow for a lack of focus.
When you
Victoria: Hmm.
Charlie: company that's.
Performing in a niche in the oil
field, and suddenly we, you can see
all these other markets in front of you
with the opportunities they present.
easy to get distracted and not
focus on the things that could
allow you to quickly, you would miss
opportunities to quickly capitalize.
all those things, , in the weight of
the world wasn't on my shoulders alone,
those are the types of things you
think about is how do I stay focused?
How do we move ahead in the best
way forward for the company, and
how do we do it in this environment?
Victoria: Yeah, so that's so interesting.
Um, I hadn't fully appreciated
that because of course, as you
say, you, you guys were working
in some ways in your comfort zone.
Charlie: Yeah.
Victoria: And knew how to make
that happen, and understood the
market that it was going into an oil
field and having that unique space.
And then bringing in the bios,
surfactants, new technology,
new markets, new customers.
And in a period of time when, you
know, during Covid, I'm not sure
anybody really wanted to innovate.
'cause in fact, a lot of people
I talked to said innovation
died for a couple of years.
Right.
Um, and certainly when you think
about, application development, right?
So yeah, you can develop this product,
but then convincing a customer
Charlie: Mm-hmm.
Victoria: maybe has to do a
new formulation and has to go
through the whole process of
it, can be a little bit, uh.
It can be challenging, and I know
it, many, many people said that
that type of innovation stalled
for a couple of years.
So, um, so that was a, a,
a big bet for you guys.
Charlie: an outstanding example
an organization fulfilling the
original mission of the CEO
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: and he bet on us, and
we bet on us at a time when.
Everyone would've been happy just
saying, well, we'll wait a year or
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: didn't, we didn't wait.
We were all over it.
And the other aspect that I didn't touch
on was, specialty chemical markets and
the chemicals associated with those
bring an obligation for intellectual
property protection at a level even
higher than what we've encountered
with our first generation of product.
Victoria: Wow.
Charlie: we had to quickly engage, find.
Resources, law firms that could
help us quickly protect our
discovery all at the same time.
I mean, it was all sudden success
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: that made it some of
the most inspiring, but yet
challenging times in my career.
Victoria: Yeah.
I love that.
And so, so let's talk about this
because I do think when people are in
this innovation space, first of all,
recognizing what you need to do in a new
market is sometimes not obvious, right?
Because we base most of our
decisions based on past history.
Charlie: Mm-hmm.
Victoria: and, you know, uh, as the
financial guys would say, past history
is no predictor of future success.
And oh, by the way, as we
record this, the markets are.
Lord, I don't know what they're doing
today, but you know, this is, this is
just past the, the big tariff announcement
of quote unquote liberation day.
And markets have been in chaos, so I
don't, um, I'm hoping it all comes back.
We'll see.
but, but anyway, the, this whole idea
of, moving into a new market, we often.
Rely on our prior experience,
and you weren't able to do it
because it was completely new.
So how do you, how do you navigate
to know that you're making the
right decisions around people around
direction, around making that happen?
Charlie: It's usually one of the
most challenging aspects of the
entire adventure because, normally.
My success rate on decisions was well over
80%, and I can tell you I don't think I've
added that high of an average on this one.
Made the effort, you know, fail,
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: a lot of trial and error
learning around each of those decisions.
Let's, let's, then of course, you draw
on your network, I'm sure Jimmy and
I did, to start gathering people and
building a team to help you learn and
quickly catapult you or leapfrog process.
The, the same building blocks.
are used to identify a product
for potential commerciality in the
oil field apply to other markets.
Victoria: Hmm.
Charlie: have different context, different
customer requirements, different forms
of packaging, different cost base.
You know, different, uh, environmental
and regulatory compliance standards.
These are things you must learn within
the context of the market, but it
is a value of applying templates.
I, I'm not sure how familiar you are
with product development, models
and stagegate evaluation and those
Victoria: Yeah,
Charlie: all that, all that holds true.
It's just us and for me in
particular, gaining that context
around the, the other new markets.
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: was again, where Jimmy shine
through, where he is able to help.
A team by bringing in folks who had that
experience that made it far more a success
story than a trial and error story.
Victoria: So, um, Charlie, this has been
a really great story and I could continue
talking to you for a very long time.
I think, If you were giving advice
to a young Charlie Landis or a
young professional who's looking to
have the career success that you've
had, what advice would you give.
Charlie: Stephen Kobey publishes the
Seven Habits of Successful People,
I'm not going to recite those, but I
would say there are three things that
a scientist I know I could not have,
progressed through my 35 years without.
I think of them in hindsight, not at
this, not at the time, but in hindsight,
I, I call them for invincible value.
As a scientist.
everyone can be Albert Einstein,
and you have to find ways
of utilizing your skills.
Victoria: Hmm.
Charlie: so you have to come up with
sort of core tenets that describe you
as a professional and would be you would
be characterized as a professional.
And I the three.
You certainly have to have expertise
in some area of your scientific field
so that people rely on you for at
least that narrow or broad window
depending on the scope of your study.
As an expert to help solve
problems, you must work with.
Experts in the field, colleagues in the
field, you must read the literature, you
must do the work and you must see it.
in use.
You must have this level
of broad expertise.
And then, and then, must.
Have a passion that makes you wake up
without an alarm clock that makes you
close a library on a Friday night if
you're, I don't know if people still go to
libraries, but in graduate school I used
to get kicked outta the libraries on a
Friday night reading about the stuff I was
hoping to become, employed someday to do.
And then, uh, you have to hope
somebody beeps their horn behind you.
'cause you're daydreaming
at a left turn signal.
Victoria: Hmm.
Charlie: Thinking about what.
Some level of passion that makes
your commitment insoluble over time.
And then the one that I think is
missing in American science at the
moment is have to know how much
information you need to succeed.
And
Victoria: Hmm.
Charlie: two examples to help
give people that perspective.
The first one is, when John F.
Kennedy decided that we were gonna go
to the moon, uh, the moon there for.
Eons waiting on the certainty of
mankind to deliver someone to the
moon and return them safely to earth.
And that required certainty
on everything they do.
But in the oil field where I grew
up, I had a great man who found a
lot of oil say that, I don't know.
Do you know about Poodle Bay in Alaska?
One of the largest oil fields in America?
Victoria: I, I am familiar with it.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Charlie: discovered with a fraction
of the information, literally
about two thirds of the information
that was available at the time to
Victoria: Yeah.
Charlie: that discovery.
somewhere in the middle, you have to
get comfortable understanding, do I need
virtual certainty around work for me
to make decisions can I live with the.
that you're gonna fail once in a while.
You must have this fear of success.
You must have a, a lower fear of failure
than you have for joy, for uh, success.
so in my world, I've always lived
with, I feel like I'm prepared to
make any decision with at least
80% of the information known to me.
And that has worked 80% of the time.
So if you can get comfortable with where
you need to be to make decisions for.
Exploring your entrepreneurial spirit
around your ability to succeed or failure.
a key aspect you, you must
be talented at, at something.
You must have a drive when others
are doubting you to proceed,
also have to know where you are.
With what you need to
do to make a decision.
How much information do you need to
be comfortable that you can sleep?
Like Harry Truman did every night,
he made a decision, and that is,
I think, an unspoken secret of
how you persist and succeed over
decades and decades of a career.
Victoria: I love that.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you, Charlie.
This has been great conversation.
I.
Yeah.
No, it's been great.
I've, I've really enjoyed this and
I'm looking forward to, sharing
this conversation with others
and the Chemical Show Network.
So thank you everyone
for joining us today.
Keep listening, keep
following, keep sharing,
Charlie: Thank you.
Victoria: we will talk
with you again soon.