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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
Subscribe now for weekly episodes that celebrate the unpredictable, the playful, and the deeply human side of making things. Join the mailing list at mischiefpod.com
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Mishu Hilmy (00:03)
Welcome to Mischief and Mastery, where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life, and that steady, and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones, and into big, bold, risky moves.
So, if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe a little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischieftodd.com.
issue and yeah today was fun one we're talking to John Silver and this is a bit of an experiment it was the first time recording in a public environment not too sure if I'll do it again simply because it's a little bit too much you know outside interruptions and noise distractions and not royalty-free music playing in the background so we'll see how that works but yeah I met up with John Silver at Eli T in Andersonville and John and I go
back since the lockdown. met virtually during the 2020 lockdown and have since seen each other around the Chicago filmmaking scene and comedy scene. And I think we get along. So yeah, I hope you enjoy. John is an award winning indie filmmaker coming from the comedy background. He's a co-founder of Showpup Productions and has worked with Second City, I.O. and a bunch of other comedy troops producing sketches, short films, web series, TV pilots and more.
His first feature, The Civil Hoax, is a fun mockumentary about the Civil War, and that was called a Can't Miss Indie Cinema by the Chicago Tribune. His latest feature is the Premiere, and it's screening at film festivals around the world. yeah, in this episode, John and I, talk about the highs and lows of indie film distribution, what happens when your film festival screenings turn out to be tech disasters and shady duds.
why some festivals are worth the entry fee and others aren't and whether making short viral material for the internet is the future of indie cinema. can learn more about John in the show notes of the episode and follow him on Instagram at John Silver Poop. If you're around Chicago you can see the premiere at the Chicago Southland Film Festival on April 3rd.
and maybe I'll link to that info in the notes. here we go. It's me and John in the loud Andersonville Eli T. Check it out if you haven't. Great T selection.
Jon Silver (02:56)
I think like it's really tough to start a project this time of year or to be working on a project this time of year. Everyone's got holiday schedules. Right. So this is actually just a good time of year to socialize and talk. So I think that's why people are doing these events. Yeah, I think so. But then also this to me seems like a really good thing to clear my mind for 2025.
Mishu Hilmy (03:21)
Where's your head at? Like what's, you know, you're working on your release, your festival release for this, but like what's top of mind right now, like today that you're hung up on and like how you want to start the new year.
Jon Silver (03:31)
I mean, so it's a great question. I've been thinking about it a lot for the last couple of months. So I got everything that I could have really wanted, right? I got money for another feature and I of course wanted more, but it was what I got is substantial compared to what a lot of people struggle to get. So I should feel very grateful. And I do, but there are so many things that humble you too.
to a discouraging point, like I went to a festival six weeks ago and the lights were on, they started 25 minutes late, the sound wasn't going, there were eight people there, the movie literally cut out about 55 minutes in. It was actually like the content of the film.
Mishu Hilmy (04:26)
it.
Jon Silver (04:28)
It took them like a really long time to get the movie going again because they were just playing it from a laptop. Right, right. And they lost their login to the laptop. It wasn't theirs. yeah. And so, yeah, like that kind of thing was just discouraging. Even if I want to get everything I want, does it still feel good?
Mishu Hilmy (04:33)
Right.
Right. Yeah, yeah. I think that's like an interesting thing because I'm like navigating the exhibition experience, right? Like process wise, like I love pre-production. don't like UPM. I don't like the logistics and scheduling and getting everyone to where they need to go. But like on set directing is great. Post-production is great. Then exhibition, like I think, I know if you're late, but because we write in direct or create, there's like a control freakery. So as soon as you're in exhibition, you're at this random theater with like Bush League. You're like, I don't know what.
Who are Are they volunteers? And that's the most anxious and angry I usually get is like when I'm just like, fuck it's gonna audio is on the monitor. what?
Jon Silver (05:22)
Yeah.
Yeah, you're you're you have control over the first like three phases. You go to this distribution marketing phase where it's usually not. Yeah. The filmmaker. Right. And they can mess it up. loss of control is a big factor for me too. I feel like now I want to at least we want to like buy a theater or some. you?
Mishu Hilmy (05:52)
kind of like surprised you're navigating like the appreciation of like having the opportunity, another round of like funding for a new feature. And at the same time, you're like at the tail end of the other one and you're seeing sort of experiences that you're like, how can this be better? Like what's break?
Jon Silver (06:07)
I think the distribution has definitely been disappointing. think the films themselves, I'm so pleased with. Everything went satisfactory. mean, like, some things better than others, but everything was to a good level. And so when the distribution is like just so disappointing and...
not that many people see a movie, it feels like, well, wait, why did I do this? If you know like, okay, so 80 people saw the movie that 50 people worked on. So that's like, and the existential thing of how people are watching film and television content in general, that shifting makes me question.
do is there is independent film something people want yeah do people just want like 100 really funny to come. Should I be making you know close to the video. And then if I do that is put it on the phone. I going to lose all my social
Mishu Hilmy (07:28)
Yeah, I wonder like, it for you like, there's an identity component. I just remember like thinking about this maybe four or five years ago, like, I just make long stories versus how do I challenge myself to like experience different media? Yeah, do you have like an identity component of like, no, no, I don't want to make short stuff. I don't want to do shorts. I don't want to do 12 second reels, TikToks. I just want to do something long. Because like the thing, the nature of like the long project is that
It's risky. And in terms of distribution models where you can recoup, you got maybe a festival run, a theatrical run, or then just like praying for the avod and the little rentals that kind of creep in every, every week, every quarter.
Jon Silver (07:59)
Yeah.
I don't mind doing short stuff. I still do short stuff for and that is it's a it's fine to just basically mess around. I actually really like making like a two minute sketch. Yeah. It's really if it's stupid and I can make it like in a day and if friends want to help out great. Yeah. But something that's very low stakes. I enjoy that. Right. But there's still for me.
Mishu Hilmy (08:12)
Yeah.
Jon Silver (08:39)
having started in like actual on stage, doing theater and sketch and improv. Sometimes I miss that because now do a screening is like a performance, but there's like maybe five or six that I get to enjoy. I used to be performing weekly. So if there's something for me lost of making content for the phone, because I don't, know, I,
see people watching it, I don't get any of that response.
Mishu Hilmy (09:12)
I think to me, I always thought about it as like sort of novelist, like it's abstract versus say a theatrical experience. the abstract is like, oh, wow, this thing has 20,000 or 2 million views. It's eight seconds long, but that's like so abstract. Like, which is like a novel, right? You're a novel's bestseller. It doesn't mean it's a best reader. It's like when it comes to something like with the theatrical experience, you know, whether at a festival or there, you're like, oh, I'm physically in a room with people and I can feel it and see it while...
Jon Silver (09:27)
for us.
Mishu Hilmy (09:42)
social media is abstract people alone being entertained or amused.
Jon Silver (09:48)
It is in the whole quantity equals success on social media. To me doesn't mean anything. Right. Right. Right. I will put out a video and I think that's so funny and it'll get like a hundred views. And then I've done these like, you know, reels for other people or like brands and they get a million views and I don't feel connected to it. And there's really like no difference between.
On my phone it says 100 or it says, you know, like 800. Right. Yeah. So it doesn't mean the same as I'd rather be in a room. You know, even if it's just like a dozen people feeling some sort of like connection between the art and the audience.
Mishu Hilmy (10:23)
Bye.
It's sort of like those small improv shows where you have 12 people on stage and six people in the audience. So when comes to releasing and festival runs, is for you distribution and the marketing experience your least favorite process? And what are you doing now? Because you're like, all right, I got funding. How are you going to make sure it's different for this new thing? What's going on in your mind? Is it a banner of a team? Because it seems like you're probably 90 % running the show.
Jon Silver (10:58)
Yeah, I'm definitely very much in charge of this latest film, the premiere, that pretty much owns at least 51 % of it. So I can do whatever I want with it. And we've applied to a lot of festivals and we've gotten into a lot of festivals, but a of these festivals aren't putting the effort into the physical atmosphere, the like community. I think it's...
Marshall still COVID hangover, but I can't believe they're still using that excuse. you know, a lot of festivals, don't do the mixers and they don't do industry for show connections. Even the industry professors are like, well, we don't need to go to your festival. Just send us your screener link. And to me, watching a movie on your computer versus singing in theater.
is so different and that's what my mood is.
Mishu Hilmy (12:01)
was your festival strategy.
Jon Silver (12:03)
Well,
so my strategy was to try to find festivals where I wanted to go. I wanted to like go to that city. But I also thought that there would be some benefit other than just the laurels. Like I really wanted to go to places I could drive to. I also I wanted to focus on the Midwest. goal was to spread this.
movie around almost like a band. We're going to tour and we would like to come to your medium sized town and we'd like to show it. And we're doing that a little bit like there's going to be screening in like quad cities. And I applied to a couple of downstate ones. Yeah. It's like shock to be honest that, you know, like Peoria and stuff like, we don't we don't want Chicago films. And so we're still waiting to hear back. I'm like,
25 festivals.
Mishu Hilmy (13:03)
You
do due diligence or vet a festival because it's like, you're saying like, you know, it's maybe volunteer run or it's some like shady guy who just wants to make $18,000 a year. Like, how are you vetting that?
Jon Silver (13:14)
It does take time. Spreadsheets are your friends. Honestly, it's just spending some time on Film Freeway. There's a lot of people who wanted to help out at the premiere but didn't necessarily have film skills. And that's one thing where I just sort of delegated. To a couple of interns, I was like, here's 50 festivals that I like. I want you to catalog how many reviews they have.
how many years have they been running, have they committed to a physical space? Like not just, we're going to be in Burbank, but do they have the theater picked out? Because that means they're committed to screening. And then also looking at the fees and the deadlines and then when it would show. And then I was also trying to pick ones that had like categories for
low-budget comedy. right, right. And a couple of those have really worked out.
Mishu Hilmy (14:21)
You know, you have like a threshold for the criteria because it seems like you're pretty aware of like what you're looking for, but you have a threshold.
Jon Silver (14:27)
Yeah, so I didn't want to pay more than $50 for any festival. I tried the strategy through Film Freeway of paying them upfront like 20 bucks and then them doing an E blast to the festivals about my movie.
Mishu Hilmy (14:32)
Yeah.
Let's start there using their marketing. How is that was that experience like?
Jon Silver (14:51)
That was really good. Interesting. Because it more than paid for itself. Oh, nice. Because about maybe a dozen festivals that I was considering sent me 50 % off. Yeah. So on average, I'm saving 15 to 20 bucks. Right. Yeah. Per so.
Mishu Hilmy (15:01)
like vouchers. Nice.
$50 bucks to you, eight. That's a good move. My thought is like, I don't know about you, but when I set up for Film Freeway, I was getting like probably like four to six emails a fucking day, felt like. I just like filtered. Yeah, whatever. Like it's just all these like random like you submit to this, submit to that. then other. So I'm like, whatever Film Freeway's marketing scheme is, it's so volume driven that like, why would I use your marketing tool or as a consumer receiving marketing from?
Jon Silver (15:21)
records.
Mishu Hilmy (15:37)
festivals who are also using the tool is not appealing to me. So the fact that some festivals are actually reading the filmmakers' emails is surprising.
Jon Silver (15:44)
Yeah.
I think when you're running the fest, your metallics are a different.
Mishu Hilmy (15:52)
Right, because you're thinking volume.
Jon Silver (15:54)
You're also though looking maybe to program something in your head of like a variety or a certain level. Like they are definitely looking for quality, right? And they don't always, they don't always just get that submission. Sometimes they have to go out and they have to solicit a little bit. Right. Right. So being connected with a few festivals like that was good. But honestly, I am probably of everything that happened with the movie.
Festival strategy is one of the things I'm satisfied.
Mishu Hilmy (16:27)
Yeah, so like, you know, like again, for this new thing, thinking of the new year, like, are you planning it? Cause I know they have, you know, festival strategists, consultants, publicists, like, are you thinking of, you know, eating some cost and delegating that away? Or do you feel, think you've learned your lessons and now have a different approach? I also don't know what this new project is. You don't need to talk about it if it's still at the mum phase, but.
Jon Silver (16:49)
No, I mean, the, there, I don't want to spend any more money on that unless it's like me flying somewhere I want to go. Yeah. I don't want to hire anyone else for it. what I kind of just didn't do well was look at the calendar because we had four festivals in five days and only got to go to one. So I missed.
Mishu Hilmy (17:15)
Yeah.
Jon Silver (17:17)
one in Philadelphia, I missed one in LA, I missed one in Montreal. And those could have just been nice experiences for me to go and talk to filmmakers, but I just missed them. And then we're gonna have like three months between November and at least February where we're not at any festivals. So I probably would have like tried to schedule stuff a little bit.
Mishu Hilmy (17:43)
Yeah,
I remember when I was doing my spreadsheets, I would have like the event dates and I would see like, oh, there are three festivals that have the same window. I would highlight like which one do I think I would most likely want to go and like, do I save the money from like, but then again, it's like, what's the goal, right? Like it's, you still have people, it's just hard. like if people are watching it, but you don't have anything that they can act on, right? If you were there, you can maybe do a Q and A or you could at least schmooze in the lobby and say, Hey, what do you think? Do you want my card or all that?
Jon Silver (18:12)
I didn't go to the one in LA because I was at one in New York 36 hours prior. But from what I heard, I do have one producer in LA. He went to that LA screening and he said it was great. And they were really nice to him and they did like, know, stuff that a lot of festivals don't do. Like they do red carpet interviews and they do Q &As and they do several mixers and other networking events. And was like, this sounds like exactly what I'm looking for.
And then we won, I guess it's called runner up for best feature or something. But they still like gave, they gave like a plaque and I was like, well, that's a much more rewarding experience than me just getting an email being like, Hey, you got it. Right. See you later.
Mishu Hilmy (18:58)
So when all is said and done, at least for this one, what is the festival doing that will make this, the premiere, more likely to recoup or make money? What are the core goals of the festival? Because there's a personal goal of I want to meet some filmmakers and I want to do that, but in terms of the financial goals, how's that laid out for you?
Jon Silver (19:15)
Well, the distribution, the digital distribution is still partially run by some maybe slightly outdated thinking of, you got into, you got into this festival. You got into Tribeca, you have Tribeca laurels. All right, well, we're gonna give you some money upfront to distribute your film. Yeah. They don't, yeah, or they'll
Mishu Hilmy (19:41)
Mm. An MG or five.
Jon Silver (19:45)
They'll basically give you a slightly better deal. I got an offer that I turned down before we got into any festivals based solely on the screener. It was like, you know, maybe if our, if we got some awards or something like that, that would give me more leverage to negotiate a better deal. So there are still people that are basically like judging digital distribution based on morals and rules.
Mishu Hilmy (20:12)
totally. Yeah, yeah. I mean, honestly, like if I see something indie on even Amazon or Hulu, like I'm probably not gonna watch it and I'll pause on the poster to go, what's this?
Jon Silver (20:22)
For the money and for strangers, it does matter a little bit. I don't really want to go to digital distribution anytime soon at all. Because the movie is so much about going to a theater and seeing it. What I would love to do is would love to have it be in theaters, even if it's just one screening a month in Milwaukee or Chicago or Des Moines or whatever.
Mishu Hilmy (20:44)
Yeah.
Jon Silver (20:51)
I'm from Detroit and it's never springed in Detroit. I'm to set that up for next spring. just like little things like that. I'd rather have my family come watch it.
Mishu Hilmy (21:01)
I mean, that's kind like, know, Oscar Michaud is doing this in the 1900s as, you know, a black filmmaker. No one would screen it, so he would just tour it like a man. would carry his reels and travel across the country. But I think in terms of like, because like festivals typically don't have press. So like you don't have like rotten tomatoes if you don't get press. like, what's, do you have an approach of like around getting bona fide reviews or press coverage? Cause usually, unless it's like a...
a major film festival, no real press coverage. So then it's like, all right, you got nothing on Rotten Tomatoes. So why are you thinking about that?
Jon Silver (21:36)
Well, the Chicago reader, it was not a great review. We have anything really bad to say about the movie other than it just didn't hold their interest.
Mishu Hilmy (21:39)
Yeah, he did.
I've never gotten, I've got like one good review from the reader.
Jon Silver (21:49)
They're
not like a positive for organization Daniel Salzman gave it a good review So, I mean that's a fun tomatoes. I'm not really worried about that too much right now. I feel like The people who are gonna Watch it on digital. It's gonna be like a referral somebody's gonna tell them right,
hey, my friend was in this or I saw this at this festival and I liked it, you should check it out. So I don't think it's gonna be like tens of thousands of people I've never met are gonna just see the poster and then look it up and be like, okay, well, it's got eight out 10. I don't that's gonna happen the same.
Mishu Hilmy (22:37)
hasn't met the expectations, met the goals, or there's still a couple things to like, I just want this, these things to happen, then I'll feel like 80%, 78%, I'm happy with a 90%.
Jon Silver (22:47)
mean, there's still things about the movie I'm thinking about fixing for a digital distribution. A lot of little technical things. Curtis, you know Curtis, right? He can play as the dead pixel on the camera. And you can't see it unless it's on a big screen. But if it's on a big screen, like, and you're looking right at it, you know, I notice it. So little things like that I might want to fix.
Mishu Hilmy (22:52)
Interesting.
Yes.
Jon Silver (23:14)
You know, some of the audio maybe I would tweak. Um, but I feel good about the movie and recouping more money is obviously beneficial. Yeah. But really what I want is I want people to see it and enjoy it. So I want the rock, the right audience to see that if that's 20 people, then great. Yeah. I don't want the wrong 10,000 people to see.
Mishu Hilmy (23:33)
Yeah.
What's your relationship with the expectation of breaking even, it being in the red? Like, I don't know if I've talked historically about your other works, but it seems like you usually end up in the black.
Jon Silver (23:52)
Honestly, the reason that I've been able to make any money bag to the point where they're preferables, because I'll do films for like minuscule budgets. Right, right, right. Civil hoax cost about $3,200. Other things like aren't necessarily my responsibility. Twain has done well, but I don't feel this pressure for that, you know, $3,300.
Mishu Hilmy (24:06)
Night.
Yeah, yes, you don't personally feel it right here. Your investor, your financial group or partnership. The pressure isn't necessarily there. wow. So mercenary.
Jon Silver (24:21)
Well, I got hired to do that. It was not,
yeah, they, wanted to make that movie. had the money to make that movie and they wanted a committee director. So obviously I wanted that movie to be as good as it could be. The premieres is different though. Like I raised all that money. I wrote the script. I own more than 51.
Mishu Hilmy (24:43)
a variety of individuals belong to one sort of LLC or a variety of organizations, several kind of business units.
Jon Silver (24:51)
Yeah, it's a variety. So a lot of people got some equity in exchange for services. We've got five, I think, people who just put in money for equity. And then there were a couple things where someone gave us resources. And I was like, you can have points for not charging us.
Mishu Hilmy (25:13)
Right.
And then I'm curious, do do net pools for like say crew or actors or do you not necessarily have a car out for the crew?
Jon Silver (25:25)
So two or three of the crew are getting equity and a few of the cast is getting equity too. A pool for everybody, I would like to do that, but I would feel like getting a tip for $3. Yeah. what I try to do is I try to do just like, if we get everything accomplished, do a casting through gifts. Right. Yeah. You know, I just take it out of my pocket. Yeah. I'm going get you a
Mishu Hilmy (25:39)
It's a little...
Also, plus a part of that 50%, like you can have the option of your own, you know, but yeah, I've been thinking more of like, how do I let the investor class know that there's a goal of like, look, instead of you getting 25%, you'll get 22.5 % or you'll get 20 % and 5 % of that will just be a crew pool or whatever kind of pool. So then like everyone can reap the benefits. So it's like a matter of like finding those organizations or partnerships that are like down for that kind of stuff.
take it and some aren't but I think that's like a model I'm more interested in. But for this, so because you have multiple partnerships, like are you not you're not getting pressure from them or like are they more patient they know it's like a two-year timeline and what's what's
Jon Silver (26:34)
They're
all very happy. So we shot the movie 11 months ago and they've already gotten checks.
Mishu Hilmy (26:40)
Since
I'm happening, are you getting honorariums from festivals or because you're not doing any digital currently.
The Davis, okay, like you know, events, ticketed events, right? And you are, there's like four walling, you're essentially doing an agreement with say the Davis.
Jon Silver (26:55)
Yeah,
so a couple places of it's just a straight rental other places. It's percentage Yeah, where they they're basically like alright well you can have the theater but they're gonna keep 40 or 50 percent of it You know other situations is like are you just have to give us a thousand dollars, right? You either break even or you don't
Mishu Hilmy (27:01)
Got the house nut and all that.
before long, like you get all the gains but take all the risk, right? Do you have a personal preference?
Jon Silver (27:19)
I
mean, would like the theater to feel invested. And we're trying the best we can to find theaters that want do that, but they're still running a business, right?
Mishu Hilmy (27:33)
You might get
like a Wednesday evening or at best Thursday at 644 whatever.
Jon Silver (27:38)
The music box has been really helpful. We've profited from our two screenings there. They fully got their mouths that they're happy with. things like that, I'm sure there are theaters elsewhere in the Midwest especially.
Mishu Hilmy (27:55)
That's really like the touring musician approach of whether it is a four wall or you have a 50 or whatever, 40, 60, 30, 70 split and the theater takes more of it. Like that takes effort, but are you finding that? So you've already recouped the cost, right? So you're investing class or is it more of those checks? We've got some. Yeah. But either way, they're getting cash funneled in. might not be at recruitment, but still it's like there's a model that's showing value.
Jon Silver (28:24)
Yes. Also, tax credit wise, I don't think that we're qualifying because of our spending was too low.
Mishu Hilmy (28:34)
because I don't remember what Chicago they lower. They lower to 100 or is it still 200? I don't.
Jon Silver (28:38)
It's a hundred. Yeah. But don't put this on internet. Yeah. This is interesting where I might be able to talk to some other people who are working on films and be like, is there any way that we could wrap my expenses? Right. Yeah. And I'm still trying to hear back from them how legal that's.
Mishu Hilmy (28:42)
I'll edit it.
Yeah, like, how can you do some like, sneaky bundling, right? You know, what's
Because if we say both produced a feature and my budget was $62 and yours was $80, we're both below it, but combined...
Jon Silver (29:21)
So, I mean, we just have to cross all eyes and dot T for the taxpayer. There's a lot of things you have to do. Like you have to pay, you have to like make sure you have the contracts for independent contractors. Anyone like SAG requires their W-2 now. So, you know, for some people who are SAG, who came for a day, they're like, just give me the money.
Mishu Hilmy (29:39)
Yeah, they're all employees.
Jon Silver (29:48)
I wanted to be able to do that. So I was like, we're gonna just do that. And since I knew we weren't gonna get a tax credit level, had we thought in advance, no, we're definitely gonna wrap the expenses for this movie into this other movie. It would have been different. I just didn't wanna do that because it would have been the investors making back 25-ish percent.
Mishu Hilmy (30:13)
It's again, like, you know, you get a tax rebate and you brokered off and you'll get, you know, 60 cents of the dollar or whatever it is. But it's also predicated on like how complicated is the other project's investing structure, right? If the other project is like, no, we just have one, one capital flow, then it's like, all right, then it might be a little bit easier to add on. But like, if that one has, there's just a risk, lot of risk.
Jon Silver (30:35)
Yeah, I mean most people who give me money, they're not expecting to get all of that money back in a reasonable amount of
Mishu Hilmy (30:45)
Right, mean, it's historically like for even major productions, it's like two to three years. So for the independent level, you know, whatever that is.
Jon Silver (30:54)
What I've found is like, let's say something, an investor gives me 10,000. I'm always trying to find people where that's not a make or break amount of money to them. So they get to be an executive producer. And then within a year, I give them back a check for a thousand. And then they go, cool. And then next year I give them a check for 2000. They're like, this is great. And then a third year, maybe they get another check for one or two thousand. So at this point, three years later,
They've only gotten half their money back, but they have been satisfied.
Mishu Hilmy (31:27)
Yeah, it's also like you've talked about it before, just informally with me, like knowing what the goal of the investor is. Like some people just want to hang out with creative people. Some people want to do the local red carpet experience. want to fly out to LA and some people want to make a modest profit. But it seems like you probably vet your investors where it's like, I don't want anyone who is expecting a 3X or a 4X in two years, you know.
Jon Silver (31:49)
It's
just not practical. And I tell them, and I was like, for a movie of this size, your best case scenario is maybe 1.5x the initial best And I'm like, that's five years. And I was like, that's probably the best case scenario. And so they're all, usually when they give me the check, they're like, they know worst case scenario is that money is just gone. And for art, sometimes it's like,
well, you supported that art and now you're always connected to the art. And at least that's my initial goal. I at have to finish the product. So I've been lucky that not only have I been able to finish the product that they give me money for, they're also getting a good chunk of money.
Mishu Hilmy (32:40)
And when it comes to the sort of your exhibition agreements, do you have standard agreements that you use, whether it's four walling or, you know, the division or are the exhibitors typically the one guiding the redlining, the agreement process?
Jon Silver (32:53)
They completely charge that the music box and Davis and theaters in Milwaukee, New York and LA, they all have their own paperwork.
Mishu Hilmy (33:04)
I'm going to have ask you for some of those PDFs, just because I love reading the variety of agreements and learning. Do you find that you're having success in, the investors for the premium? Are some still also tagging on your new project? Or is someone like, I'm happy with this? Or do you have a whole new cohort for this new project?
Jon Silver (33:21)
Usually, I get the investors are satisfied, they come onto new projects. That's why I keep budgets low. Had I been like, no, I want $175,000 to make the premiere. That's the minimum. And done everything and insisted that the investors give me 50K each. And I only return 8 to 12K each.
Mishu Hilmy (33:26)
exciting.
Jon Silver (33:51)
It would have been like, all right, well, I'm not doing this.
Mishu Hilmy (33:53)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. mean, that's a big thing versus no, if you have a couple million in your bank or whatever it is, even like a half of them, like, yeah, point five percent, you'll be okay.
Jon Silver (34:05)
One of the investors put to me, he's like, I'm investing in you because they're confident at this point that I'm running it enough like a business, also still making enough art that they are like, you know, it might take 10, 20 years, but they're like, you'll make something that starts to pay us back.
Mishu Hilmy (34:26)
I mean, at the end of the day, it's like what works, right? Like all agreements are just rules of the game between the relationship. if you're investing class is like comfortable and happy with it you're honest about it, there should be.
Jon Silver (34:40)
With
this new thing that I'm trying to do next year, it'll probably, I'll have to take a backseat to a lot of the like ownership and legality of all this stuff. Maybe we'll have to just make it an LLC or something. Right, right. And really protect everybody. But the goal for this next one is much more to be monetarily sound and less just...
Mishu Hilmy (35:08)
Yeah, do you like much like the sort of film festivals, are you creating criteria or thresholds where it's like, this is what the ideal partnership would be? Because do you really want to do what is essentially an agency work versus what it sounds like is something a little bit more blended of like, is experiment within the territory of like, this is finance and it's about Mountain Dew. Yeah. But they've given us so much creative control because they're like compared to their other campaigns.
Jon Silver (35:25)
Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (35:36)
it's negligible pricing, you know, rather than 5-10 million for the four campaigns they have a year or whatever.
Jon Silver (35:43)
Yeah, I think that's the real thing we're trying to sell to the branch right now is we want to have them take a small risk for something that's cutting edge. it's also way more artistic than what we're Yeah. Because they feel like we just need 30 seconds in the middle of a football game to get people aware of us. We're trying a much more grassroots approach. I don't think it's going to go to festivals.
Mishu Hilmy (36:00)
Yeah.
Jon Silver (36:13)
But I think it would be something where it's like there's promotional screenings.
Mishu Hilmy (36:18)
some festivals do have their carve out for like new technology advertisers and already now has so in terms of like who you're targeting are they sort of local large local brands are you like going for fortune 500 fortune 1000 like or are you are you responsible for targeting them or do you have a partner who's like I have the relationships okay yeah and how how looped in have you been in that yeah
Jon Silver (36:40)
So
partner are people I went to college with a guy. He works at a video focused agency. Yeah. And they do a huge budget ads for, for fortune 500 brands. Okay. And so his life is just, he lives in that world. When he was out of college, he was a PA on feature films and he misses that a little bit. Yeah. So we were talking and I was like, you know, I have an idea for a new
comedy project. And so we're talking to some other people and they're like, why don't you just find a brand to sponsor it? Yeah. And to find some compromise of either they give us a hundred K and we can do the project or they give us a million. Yeah. So he's then going to all the brands he's ever worked with through the agency and saying, we want to pitch you something different. I think most
Mishu Hilmy (37:28)
Interesting.
most large companies are very conservative with their image and their brand so I think the challenge that you and your partner are dealing with is like winnowing it you know out of the hundred options like these are the eight that are a little bit more mischievous a little bit more risk forward so has there been interest so it's
Jon Silver (37:52)
The
same for making the film of like we have nibbles. Are these nibbles? Are we hooking? And these nibbles so far have been like, they're like, it's not quite right for us. And what we're trying to figure out is that because they don't want to spend the money or they don't want it to go wrong and make them bad. I think it's the latter because a couple of brands have tried ads recently. If think about that Coke, who they made
Mishu Hilmy (38:11)
Look.
Jon Silver (38:21)
AI made a Coke ad. Oh, yeah. It's a disaster. are like mad. Yeah. So I think some of these brands are like, I don't want to piss people off. Right. I think we need to aim for a non Fortune 500.
Mishu Hilmy (38:34)
Again, for them, it's always higher risk because there might be a smaller player, but like.
Jon Silver (38:38)
We
were targeting some smaller ones. Yeah. Uh, first, and they were like, we can't give you any money at all. And I was like, okay, well, that doesn't really work. So then we went to like the biggest ones, manageable and they're like, we don't know if we want this. So now we're trying to middle and trying to find the agency partner. He described it as he wants to find.
market executive who wants to be bold enough to try something where he would win CMO with E. So they're trying to find that guy. And that's what I'd like to do for 2025. I'm not have to put my heart on line for a project.
Mishu Hilmy (39:28)
Like
it must be a relief to know like you have a team or partner who's doing that legwork. Traditionally you've been the one who's like sending emails, going to events, talking to folks who might be at a steadier state in their life and have a good net worth.
Jon Silver (39:43)
That's the like work goal for 2025, but I still want to show the premiere.
Mishu Hilmy (39:50)
The
touring musician model, that's still the plan of building out, you played it a few times in Illinois, maybe you have some whole quotes that you like. You go to St. Matys and you go, hey, can we have a Friday afternoon or Thursday nights for people who love movies and this is a movie about movies. And do you have a goal of like, to do this twice a week or once a month?
Jon Silver (40:16)
I'd like it to be monthly. For example, last night, Ron was like, how can I see a movie? I'm like, I don't have an answer for you. What an embarrassing situation.
Mishu Hilmy (40:26)
Yeah. And then for you, do you have the level, like, again, risk reward? Are you willing to hire someone for X amount of months? Say, Hey, can you do all this legwork, this street teamwork or whatever it is, or find locals to just go like, all right, 1800 a month is for this. Plus the house nut. And then maybe we'll get 700 back. Like whatever. Like, I'm just curious, like, how are you moving beyond just you being the DIY sole person?
Jon Silver (40:54)
Yeah, I mean, these are just conversations I have with the various producers. I was like, does anyone want to do this? Yeah. The reality is a lot of them were like, I don't know, I got to go home to Indiana for Christmas for three weeks. Can I, can we talk about this in January? Right, right, right. That's why nothing's going on.
Mishu Hilmy (41:11)
Yeah, I'm just thinking of making it a system at least, you know, versus it's kind of ad hoc, right? It's like, oh yeah, maybe February I'll do a show in Iowa and, you know, come April I'll do a show in Southern Illinois. Like, do you have that in mind of like you would prefer it more consistent just for at least a year? And then it's like, wow, this model for this particular film has worked.
Jon Silver (41:33)
Well, I would definitely like to do that if they continue to go well. Right. What I'm worried about is that they start to peter out. Yeah. And then we're getting like situations where we're not making our money back. Yeah. Lighthouse.
Mishu Hilmy (41:50)
Right, you just dropped 1500 for a theater in upper Wisconsin and only eight people showed up and you got your, you know, 80 bucks.
Jon Silver (41:58)
Yeah. I don't want to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. right now what I'm trying to do is I go with, like, high level crews and the high level cast. Well, where's your hotel? you have connections? So that's why we're trying to to Quad Cities. I want to go back to LA. we haven't had like a real public screening in LA, so I might just fall off there. Right. so trying to figure that out and it's just,
rather wait a couple weeks in here back from some festivals before I sign any contracts.
Mishu Hilmy (42:35)
Do you have any sort marketing spend? Like say if you are doing swastika, are you doing like, all right, we'll put a hundred bucks toward tick tock or Instagram or Facebook.
Jon Silver (42:43)
can.
I think that we'll probably try that. basically, I have an account willing to go down to zero for the film. And you know, we've got a few hundred dollars. Right, right, right. Yeah, if we need to like spend 100 bucks. Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (42:57)
Yeah,
I'm just curious. because it's sort of the event, the event model and it's helpful. it's like, right, for the cast, the crew will show up. They live in this city. They got friends and family. So that's kind of built in. But when you're sort of outside of the event experience and like, you know, you as a director, I can't even make it up to Michigan, but the theater is interested. They like the story. None of the cast or crew can be there.
Jon Silver (43:19)
Yeah, I mean, I think I at least want to be at the screening. Yeah, it's screened several times. I haven't been there. I'm like, can't believe that I was there. Yeah. And I think that affects people's view of work.
Mishu Hilmy (43:32)
personal and memorable experience. I think that's where the nature of the industry is in general for theatrical. I think most people, because we have so many, like, you can watch Netflix, I can watch, go into the meta verse, I can go on two hours. But the reason I'll go out to movies is because I want to have fun experience. You know, I went to see Gladiator, I to see Wicked, The Wild Robot.
Jon Silver (43:46)
We'll for.
So.
Mishu Hilmy (43:56)
Which makes it harder because like, it's like, we're competing with so many different means of passing time.
Jon Silver (44:03)
Yeah. I feel like the indie model for seeing a movie to me is so much more enjoyable. Yeah. You're at the Davis, right? Did you like know other people there? Take prices now for going to the movies sometimes. It's like 16 to 18 dollars. And so I was like, this is the world premiere. It's pretty much the same price. Right. Yeah. So I'm trying to like.
Mishu Hilmy (44:13)
Yeah.
Yeah, I've mounted some friendly faces.
Jon Silver (44:30)
do a theater thing where it's like, we're gonna have $10 tickets, we're not gonna show ads before the movie, and we're gonna be around to talk to you about the movie if you want. So I'm trying to make this is like preferable to going and see, know, Red One or. Yeah, my gosh.
Mishu Hilmy (44:47)
Yeah, are you long term, are you hoping to stay in the indie space or kind like when you imagine yourself in like 10 years, whether it's writing and directing or producing, like what does that look like for you?
Jon Silver (44:56)
Honestly, doing
the exact same thing I'm doing now. I just don't want to be at the scraping together the money. Yeah. I mean, honestly, the budget on Twain was ample so that the people who worked on it got paid. What they asked for. Yeah. Yeah. All right. And so I would be happy that budget level. It's just it's tricky, but.
Mishu Hilmy (45:20)
Yeah, Price and
the time to get that upfront capital versus if you do it for like $10,000 and there's an agreement or whatever, a labor of love. But that's again, like the nature of scope, right? Like if it's at that level, it's going to be expected at that level.
Jon Silver (45:40)
Right.
You know, I've gotten opportunities to interview, to direct movies that are not mine, which is like amazing. Yeah. So that's something that I'll probably want to keep doing. That's cool. Help other people with projects. I mean, I've done enough now where I'm like not terrified of them. Yeah. So either that or I'll just be
Mishu Hilmy (45:55)
is the
Jon Silver (46:09)
In 10 years there won't be movies and I'll be a janitor.
Mishu Hilmy (46:12)
Yeah, it will be in dystopic hellscape. It's like the romantic goal of, in terms of alignment with integrity, of to earn a living doing something that is creatively challenging and meaningful to me. I think there's like a level of integrity where it's like, this is the thing that I enjoy doing. But that's the romantic version. I could live a life where it's like, no, I never make the sustainable income doing this thing. So then it's like subsidizing that.
Jon Silver (46:14)
What about you?
Bye.
Mishu Hilmy (46:43)
passion or whatever. So yeah, long-term would be to be able to live a life, a modest life, based off of what I make. That would be the most sense of integrity.
Jon Silver (46:56)
That, I mean, it's an amazing goal, right? The reality is not many people get that. Right, right, right. They get somebody from what they do, but they always have to do some compromised thing.
Mishu Hilmy (47:09)
Yeah,
because I think that, know, in terms of like the art or artisan class, it's like there's only so many ways of making a living. It's either, you know, think it's like three or four models. It's you have a patron, you're independently wealthy or you have a job that finances it. And lastly, you're so successful, your work pays for itself. Right. So I think the romance is like on number four. But.
you whatever, is equally valid. So it's like me always trying to break up my romance and just go where you're at today. It's like, that's fine.
Jon Silver (47:45)
I what's I always have to think of it in terms of like baseball where there's only you know like 500 really professional guys. Yeah. Where their baseball so good that people give them. Yes. Yes. Yes. But then there's also these minor league baseball players who are like making thirty thousand dollars a year half the year. Are they still professional baseball? And the answer to me is yes. Yeah. Yeah. What I'd be happy if I was a minor league baseball player.
I don't know. I'm trying to help. But it's like, there people who love baseball and you're playing single A. You can play baseball. That's the thing of like, as long as I could have that film. Somebody will give me a hundred dollars to make their video for their business.
Mishu Hilmy (48:23)
get to base money. Right, right,
I also
think that sports are for me the most humbling reference level because it's also like if you're expected to be like a LeBron James, but you're not putting in the hours like a LeBron James, then it's delusional to be like this thing is going to do it when it's like you're not putting the dedication that warrants.
Jon Silver (48:59)
So
Mishu Hilmy (49:01)
Yeah, and that's all a lifestyle choice, right? Like if you want to be that, you know, World Series playing person, then your life is going to change to guide you like toward playing in the World Series. But I think most filmmakers or creative people might just be like, it's so easy to dream about the laurels, but really like the price. And if the labor isn't enough, if the work, if going to the gym every day and doing your reps and shooting your free throws isn't enough, then you're...
you're going to be in a world of her. So I asked myself, how do I do my free throws? You know, like as someone who writes or directs, like earlier in the year, I was writing a micro short every day. I think I did like 60 or 70. And like part of this is like the podcast ideas, like all explorations of how do I enjoy creative process? How do I evolve creative process? But I know I could always do more reps. Like ideally it would be two to three hours a day thinking about directing, breaking up a scene. Like if I'm on set and then watch a five minute.
Jon Silver (49:52)
Yes
Mishu Hilmy (49:59)
clip and go, all how many setups do they have? How many do they do? But lately, I'm not doing my reps. And it's okay. It's like the end of the year. But, you know, I think as I get older, it's like, I keep redefining what is a beautiful life, what is a life, or what is success. And success for me is like, it has to be about curiosity, lightness and play. And if I'm not enjoying this conversation with you, then it's like, all right, maybe this thing isn't the thing I want to be doing. Yeah.
Jon Silver (50:24)
You know, think a lot of people.
find it difficult to translate that reps into ours. Especially film editing. Because you can't just start doing pushups and make your film better. And I struggled with that for a long time with writing. I wouldn't write for a week and I'd be like, I fraud? I'm not working on it. So what I've always done is just kept lots of collections of notes and sometimes
the work on a project is just brainstorming and just posing questions rather than actually typing out the scene. Being like just working on the backstory for the characters.
Mishu Hilmy (51:09)
I think
for me, it's like reps. One thing is like a dissociating reps from identity. And the other thing is understanding exercises and the variety of them, right? Like if you're a basketball player, you're not just doing free throws, right? You're, doing suicides, you're doing this, you're doing teamwork. You're talking, you're like talking over a strategy. So it's like,
having the tool belt of like, all right, these are the 20 reps that I'm going to do for the first three months of the year. And then maybe if I do get to production, then I'm getting to do more production reps, but I might never have a production for 2025. But then identity, big thing is like, if I miss doing a pushup or a free throw or whatever, if I miss doing a migration or brainstorming, like.
that's okay. Ideally, I make it up through a different kind of rep. But if I do zero reps, it's still important to be like, this has nothing to do with who I am as a human being. And the capital A artist or the capital F filmmaker that people get like obsessed with, I think is like dangerous. Yeah, to associate an identity with your action or your success or whatever.
Jon Silver (52:06)
you
It is. think people get so down on themselves for not being at the level that they want to be at. I'm that all the time. Right. Like when I don't get into a festival, think I should have gotten to it. I'm like, this is that great a festival. Yeah. Yeah. For instance, like I think I don't want to the exact name, but it was some California festival where I was like there were so many qualifying words of like
the South Central Los Angeles film, independent film festival of Burbank. I was like, if there's that many words in it, I should be able to get it. And then they're like, no, you're not. And I just get so down with it. Totally, I hear that.
Mishu Hilmy (52:54)
And that's like that strange, like the resentments and yeah, it was part of like the thick skin of it.
But then it's like, do you have the tools to like, feel the frustration, let it fully experience itself and then go, actually, I don't know what the programmers are wanting. I what their goal is. I don't know what like their volume was. Yeah. All these like external things versus like, it's about me, how much I suck. This is going to ruin my life. I'm a fraud. Like, yeah, maybe they'll feel like that for like three seconds or three minutes, but the goal is to move it from that sensation of 30 minutes. all right, I'll let it, I'll feel that for a couple of seconds and then go back to, I don't know why they said no.
I don't know why I said yes, and it doesn't really matter.
Jon Silver (53:32)
Yeah, I mean, sometimes it is things that you can change. Other times it's not. I always question that. But with film sometimes it's just like the script and the people and the budget you're set off on a path. you can't necessarily just like work harder and make that be astronomical. I've been up against five million dollar movies at these festivals. They're still applying.
Mishu Hilmy (53:54)
Yes.
Jon Silver (54:02)
So it's sometimes not like, you could have worked harder.
Mishu Hilmy (54:06)
Yeah, yeah, that's why again I try to return back to curiosity lightness play and love the labor love the process because I have No control. So if I'm focusing on the things I can't control when we miss will Steven press fields or bar I like the line playing field is only level in Like this is what we're up against. Yeah, I think we're a little bit over now So any kind of final thoughts or things that you're excited about?
Jon Silver (54:20)
Yeah.
Yeah, you know this
chatting about it is one thing I've actually been trying to focus on more tonight. Like a lot of what I've spent the last couple of years doing too much is being alone in my office, trying to be like, how do I make this better? And I'm like, I just need to kind of like talk to more people in real life and turn my brain off from how do make the project better? It's like, how do I just reinvest in my relationships? Great.
Mishu Hilmy (54:38)
or I feel like.
Thank you
Jon Silver (55:12)
you
Mishu Hilmy (55:13)
Before setting you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed this show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief Motivation.
Great, so that was me and John and here's a little creative prompt. I hope you enjoyed our talk and let's jump into something to play around with. So for the next 10 minutes or when you get home or whenever you have 10 minutes, try to plan your own anti-film festival. What would a dream DIY screening look like? Who would it be for? Because I don't know, as fun as...
It is to deal with gatekeepers. Sometimes they say no a lot and planning your own kind of anti-festival might be a playful reminder that your work doesn't need permission to exist or matter and you don't need to ask for permission or wait to be chosen to make small things, creative things. So yeah, that's the prompts. Spend a couple of minutes. If you got 10 minutes to just jot down, what would your own DIY anti-screening look like? Who would it be for? What would you like people to feel?
And yeah, hopefully that's a nice empowering reminder to choose yourself and not wait to be chosen. Yeah, hope that's helpful. And I'll see you in the next one. Thanks for listening this far and I hope you have a great rest.