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Becoming an entrepreneur takes grit.
Deciding to do it solo takes courage.
This is 1,000 Routes, the podcast where we explore the stories of solopreneurs who have made the bet on themselves to build a business that serves their life. Every episode you'll hear about the lessons they've learned and the uncommon routes they've taken to stand out in a world that is purposefully trying to commoditize them.
Joe Daniels [00:00:00]:
So I think that was a good lesson in, like, trusting my instincts on it. And you know what, it just felt right to do that. So I did it. Because you can do that when you're your own boss.
Nick Bennett [00:00:16]:
This is 1000 Routes. Every episode, a solopreneur shares how they're building, what they're building. We'll hear all about how they've made the bet on themselves, the uncommon route that they're taking to build a business that serves their life, and the reality of building a business of one. Your host, Nick Bennett. Before we get started, I'm excited to share a new program that I've been working on called Full Stack Solopreneur in partnership with my friend and legendary entrepreneur Erica Schneider. Now, unlike other programs, Full Stack Solopreneur is a hybrid digital program for independent professionals who are too far along for another course to be really all that helpful, but not far enough to invest in a private coaching or consulting service. In here, you'll gain access to both the full curriculum and monthly group coaching clinics to teach you how to create a legendary niche offer, how to build a content engine and how to sell like a human. You can learn more@fullstacksolo.com that's FullStack S O L O dot com.
Joe Daniels [00:01:15]:
Yeah, so I'm Joe Daniels and I started an agency called LEFTFIELD. And LEFTFIELD basically helps businesses stand out when they're in a crowded market. That's the easy way of saying it, through a mixture of positioning, work and brand strategy and messaging and all of that fun stuff. So predominantly I started off working with tech startups, very sort of early stage SaaS, tech startups. More recently I made the decision to actually transition and sort of pivot slightly in terms of who I do it for, which is to move more towards freelancers, consultants, creatives, all those kinds of people. So, yeah, that's me.
Nick Bennett [00:01:57]:
Well, that's a fantastic place to start because one, I have a great deal of love and respect for anyone who is trying to make a difference for more solopreneurs and independent professionals. I love that transition, but talk me through. Let's start. Let's start there. So you came first when you came out on your own. You started as Spiel or Spiel.
Joe Daniels [00:02:20]:
Yep.
Nick Bennett [00:02:21]:
And then you recently reran into LEFTFIELD. So like, let's back up to that moment and then kind of dig into this other transition you've made from. From tech to. To more independence.
Joe Daniels [00:02:31]:
Sort of brief history of me. I left an agency called Treacle back in May this year.
Nick Bennett [00:02:38]:
Which, by the way, Treacle has a fantastic mission. I think that's how we got connected in the first place, which was when I started doing this on my own. I was trying to help agencies niche down. I know that's a core competency of Treacle. You were one of their. You were working with them and doing, doing some of that work. And so that's how we initially got connected. And then we've since.
Nick Bennett [00:03:03]:
I've since changed what I'm doing. But so Treacle does good work. I think that's, that's the moral of that story. They're on a noble mission.
Joe Daniels [00:03:12]:
Yeah. So Treacle, like you've said, we helped agencies with their own positioning and messaging, helping them stand out. And I left in May and decided to start my own thing. And what I didn't want to do is basically rebuild another version of Treacle because I was like, that doesn't. You know, I'm still on good terms with Roland, who's the founder there. It also goes completely against what I do to just create a copycat agency and be like, yeah, here we go. So I was like, I want to keep the kind of skill set that I've got intact because that's what I've been doing for like, well, most of my career.
Nick Bennett [00:03:47]:
Right.
Joe Daniels [00:03:48]:
Is this thing. So it doesn't make sense to do something completely different. But I figured I'd do it for a different type of client. So I had a bit of background in B2B tech and SaaS prior to working at Treacle. So I was like, oh, well, that's kind of the perfect fit. Right? It's. I've got the background and knowledge of that industry, I've got the skill set on this side. Bring them both together.
Joe Daniels [00:04:10]:
And when I started, I started, as you mentioned, as Spiel. And the reason for that name was because the focus then was on very much on narrative and narrative design and that sort of thing. And I started off doing it and I started to get a bit of traction with that. But then what happened was I realized that I was doing more than just narrative work. And talking about just narrative was a bit limiting in terms of, like, I was like, that's not really what I'm trying. That's kind of like the delivery mechanism of the work. It's not the work. So as I started talking more about positioning and differentiation and having a clear point of view and all that sort of stuff, which is very linked to the narrative, but not the same technically, I changed what I did to be in line with that.
Joe Daniels [00:05:00]:
But then. So I'm very anal about names of things. And I was like, well, spiel made sense when it was about a story, right? And now it's not. And I was like, so now it doesn't make any sense as a name. I'd almost fitted the name perfectly to that one specific thing that I didn't feel it would flex. And so I was like, okay, what else can I call it? LEFTFIELD was one of the original contenders of the Name. And so I went back to the list, looked at that. I was like, you know what? That talks more to that differentiation side, which is really the key reason for doing this work.
Joe Daniels [00:05:33]:
Let's go with that. So that was the Rename story. It's interesting because that was quite fair. That was quite early on in my, you know, I've not been going for very long on my own. And I remember talking to Roland from Treacle about it and I was like, I think I'm going to change the name. And he was like, don't change the name. Which obviously made me want to change the name more. So I was like, oh, cool, I'm definitely changing the name.
Joe Daniels [00:05:58]:
Luckily it went down really well on LinkedIn and so on. Were like, this is a way better name. Suits it way better. It's much cooler, blah, blah. I was like, oh. I mean, they've kind of subtly suggested that they hated the name before, but that's fine. Yeah, Basically it seemed to work pretty well. So I think that was a good lesson in, like, trusting my instincts on it.
Joe Daniels [00:06:17]:
And you know what? It just felt right to do that. So I did it. Because you can do that when you're your own boss.
Nick Bennett [00:06:24]:
There are no rules. I think a lot of people are too afraid to just make those kind of sharp turns, like, oh, like, how will anyone ever know it's still me? It's like, I don't think people pay that close attention.
Joe Daniels [00:06:34]:
Like, I mean, that's a good point as well. Is that like, you know, here's a sneak peek towards the future of my business and maybe get onto this in, in a bit of time anyway, is maybe even just dropping the guise of being an agency in the first place and just kind of embracing the fact that it's. It's really just me. It's just me as a consultant. Everyone on LinkedIn that knows who I am knows me as Joe. They don't know me as LEFTFIELD, right? So, like, I. I'm like, maybe I don't even need that name. Do you know? I Mean, like, maybe, but that's.
Joe Daniels [00:07:01]:
That's another pivot for another time. So, yeah, I think the reason I felt comfortable making it was because it was early on. And I was like, well, you know what? If I'm ever going to do it, it's now I don't want to do it after five years of building up, like, a brand awareness around this name and then be like, nope, that's going. So I think there's some freedom in the naivety of being early, right? In that you can kind of. That's when you should experiment and sort of iterate.
Nick Bennett [00:07:24]:
You can experiment freely. But also, I mean, there's no rules, so you can do literally anything you want. I mean, Facebook renamed their company to Meta. Like, you can do anything you want. There are no rules. But I think it's just the fact that you can. You chose to do it. And then, first of all, the narrative of LEFTFIELD lines up really, really well.
Nick Bennett [00:07:45]:
Once I saw it, I was like, okay, this makes a lot of sense. It's just easy to wrap your head around. Not that spiel didn't I think it made sense. But the whole LEFTFIELD thing, I think you put it together really, really well. Okay, so you're doing this. You're LEFTFIELD, you're working with tech companies. Where's the aha? Then you're, like, working a little bit more with, like, consultants and coaches and solopreneurs and stuff like that. Because I think shifting icps and whatever is something that people get all freaked out about and they get all, you know, they got all turned around on, and you've been just making changes like crazy.
Nick Bennett [00:08:15]:
And so it's like, first of all, what's the signal that you solved that made you want to do this in the first place? How'd you decide? And let's go from there.
Joe Daniels [00:08:24]:
There were probably a few kind of separate threads going on that kind of all combined. So one of those was I was talking to my clients about this thing that this whole idea I have. It's not my idea, but I call it the false niche, where you arbitrarily choose some kind of niche. Like, I did. Like, I was like, oh, you know what? B2B Sass? And then the question becomes like, what is it about what you do that only works for B2B SaaS or whatever niche you choose? If there's an answer to that, like, oh, it's very reliant on my industry knowledge, and therefore I've chosen that industry, fine. Mine wasn't so mine. I fell into the same trap. I warn clients at Gates, which is to just randomly pick one and not tailor your whole offer and stuff towards that particular niche.
Joe Daniels [00:09:14]:
And so, so I'd done it. The classic, you know, you always make the same mistakes that you tell your clients not to make. I'd made that mistake. And when I started thinking about why am I doing it for B2B SaaS specifically, I couldn't answer that question to myself. And that's when I was like, what do I, where do I provide the most value? And the answer was companies in a crowded market. B2B SaaS is sometimes that right? Like there are a lot of B2B SaaS companies in a crowded market, but it's also not the most crowded market in my opinion. I think the most crowded market is probably that kind of like service based businesses where it's the freelancers, agencies, so on. There are so many of them all offering the same thing, going after the same clients.
Joe Daniels [00:09:59]:
And so I was like, I think that was number one, was like, it felt like actually I'd pigeonholed myself into one industry for no real reason and I wanted to kind of break free of that. Number two was when I was at Treacle, I remember having a conversation with Roland about working with Solos and being like, you know what, there's loads of these solo people that are, for all intents and purposes are running a one person agency, right? And. And I was like, why don't we help them? Even if it's just a lighter touch thing, even if it's a course or whatever it is, like, why don't we do something as Treacle? Because it's very adjacent to the agency market that we're already in. And we banded it around for a while. We ended up deciding that it just didn't work financially for Treacle to do it in terms of like the costs and overheads and profit margins and so on. So we shelved it, didn't bother doing it. I think more recently I remembered that and that came into my head and I was like, oh, I don't have all those agency overheads anymore. I'm on my own.
Joe Daniels [00:10:58]:
Maybe now it is feasible to do that myself. So that was number two. And then number three was that as part of, of building my own network up. I think you inevitably attract a lot of other freelancers and service providers as well, because that's what you're doing, even if they're not your target clients. And I spoke to loads of them and whenever I spoke about what I did, without hesitation Most of them would go, oh, that would be really useful for me. And I, oh, right, I know how that goes. I was like, yeah, basically just giving them all this free knowledge. Cause I was like, oh well these aren't a client.
Joe Daniels [00:11:36]:
These are just someone I've met. Like, it's fine, I'll give it away for free. And then after a while I was like, I've given a lot of advice for free here. Like, would people pay for this? They probably would, right? And so that was the third thing. And I guess they all kind of conspired together recently in my head and yeah, basically was like, you know what, it ticks a few boxes for me. It ticks the box of. Actually it's more relevant to my skill set that I learned at Treacle in that it's a service based business that I'm positioning and helping position rather than a tangible product. I also think that there's an element of the fulfillment side of the work in that I've never ran a SaaS company.
Joe Daniels [00:12:16]:
I don't know what that's like. I do know what it's like to run your own service based business as one person because that's what I do. So I think if I can help other people like myself and I can put myself in their shoes and empathize with them, I think that feels like a much more fulfilling thing to do than to help tech companies. So even on like a personal level, I think that's going to be good for the soul kind of thing. So yeah, that's my long winded way of saying that I think it makes sense. Ask me again in six months and I might have changed my mind.
Nick Bennett [00:12:48]:
You're very familiar with like the missionary mercenary mindset here. And going after tech companies is very mercenary for a lot of people. They're like, tech companies have money, I can do a thing, let's do it for tech companies, make the money. Which is fine, we're all a little bit mercenary. But one of the things that people forget is like to go out and solve a problem you give a shit about is a very important part of the process. And what I heard you say was I don't really give a shit about SaaS companies. That much I care. It means more to me to help other people, to make a difference for other people in this way.
Nick Bennett [00:13:23]:
It's a similar thing to how I ended up working with solopreneurs as well. Like I came out doing this work for agencies and found that just as many solopreneurs said, hey, I can really use that. And then you do when you work. Sure, whatever. I'll work with you too. And then it was so much more fulfilling to work with solopreneurs on it. And then you're like, hey, there's a whole thing here. There's so much untapped potential here, not to mention that there's millions of solopreneurs, so there's plenty of business for everyone, not just for me.
Nick Bennett [00:13:55]:
And also there's going to be millions and millions of more people making the shift over the next couple of years. So there's a ton of opportunity there. But one of the things that I find really fascinating and what you're saying just really aligns with a framework that I very much believe in, which is this idea that I'm calling like, problem access fit. And basically it's this idea that the revenue is at the intersection of the problem you solve and your access to people with that problem. So no matter how great of a problem you. You've ID'd or can solve, if you don't have access to tech, tech companies, for example, and you have access to solopreneurs, like, it's. You're gonna find out what that. Where that intersection is at some point, and that's where the money's gonna be for you.
Nick Bennett [00:14:47]:
So I think you're kind of going through your own process of finding problem access fit for yourself. And because like you said, there's also a ton of people trying to solve similar problems for tech companies in, like, a variety of ways, which is good. It validates that the problem is meaningful and it's valuable and all of those things. But yeah, it's never just done. You're always dialing in and trying to figure out, well, do I really push for access or do I just read what I'm doing here and just be. Be real about where. Who I have access to right now.
Joe Daniels [00:15:18]:
That's a really good way of putting it. I. I like. That's a really good framework. I completely agree with it. I think I was always very set on what the problem was. I think that was the constant that was like the fixed point almost. I mean, I like to think I'm pretty good at solving that particular problem.
Joe Daniels [00:15:31]:
And so you're right that then it became a question of the access part and who do I have the access to? And I wonder whether, like, I've kind of naturally gravitated towards the access part point.
Nick Bennett [00:15:41]:
We all do.
Joe Daniels [00:15:42]:
But I think what's really interesting and then something just popped into my head when you said that is like. It's a bit like the kind of like a river, right, where it kind of finds the path of least resistance. And I think. I wonder whether, like, if you keep kind of putting your head against a wall to try and get in the access part. Right, it's probably not right. You know, to a certain extent, I'm not saying just give up at the first hurdle, but, like, it feels intangible to say it, but if it feels easier to go in a certain direction, it might be the best direction to go in. I mean, it's. And it's.
Joe Daniels [00:16:10]:
Yeah, it's. It's easy to sound lazy saying that, but, I mean, I am lazy, basically.
Nick Bennett [00:16:14]:
But, like, no, I. I think it's not that obvious to a lot of people. You said you're like, I give a lot of free advice to solopreneurs, like, anyway, and just write it off. Like, here's an easy example. I was working with an agency out of the UK and they wanted to target manufacturing companies. So we did a whole bunch of work and tried to move this message into the market. And a bunch of marketing agencies raised their hand and were like, hey, we have this problem. Can you help us? And so the founders came back to me and they were like, nick, I don't know what to do.
Nick Bennett [00:16:48]:
But, like, we're trying to get manufacturing companies. All these marketing agencies are coming to us. We're just like, I don't really know what to make of it. I don't know what to do. Like, I'm like, you sell to marketing agencies now. This is the signal. The marketing agencies have the problem. They're coming to you saying, the problem is real.
Nick Bennett [00:17:01]:
They told you. And he looks at me, he goes, holy shit. I don't know why I didn't think of this. It's like, you're not looking if your aperture's not wide enough. You're going to just see that and go, this is a bunch of noise. But it's not the noise, it's actually the signal, right? And so good for you for seeing it and being like, oh, okay, I can adapt to this. So there's a ton of opportunity there. And I think that's a great example of trying to just navigate.
Nick Bennett [00:17:25]:
I like the analogy. Like that river, it's like the path of least resistance. The water will find its way. Right?
Joe Daniels [00:17:31]:
Another good example to go back to Treacle is treacle itself. So treacle's origin story is that Roland, the founder, set himself up as just a copywriter and went to a bunch of agencies in the UK and was like, I need some work. Do you have any work for a copywriter? Some of them said, yeah, he started working with them. A couple of them said, well, actually we don't really have any client stuff, but we could do. Someone's taking a look at our website ourselves. And he's like, oh, okay. And he had a look and quickly realized that 99% of agencies have just the shittest website you'll ever see in the world in terms of messaging and so on. And so he was like, maybe this should be my niche.
Joe Daniels [00:18:10]:
Maybe I should just work for the agencies themselves. And so that it was the same thing. Right. I think it's about having that open mindset of being like, seeing it as an opportunity, not as a, an obstacle. Like actually that's a good thing that's caught your eye and.
Nick Bennett [00:18:25]:
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so you've been doing this for like a year or so. In February or so, my notice period.
Joe Daniels [00:18:33]:
Three month notice period started in February that I started building on the side then at that point because I was like, I need to hit the ground running when I leave Treacle full time from about May onwards.
Nick Bennett [00:18:44]:
Got it. I know from personal experience that when you first go out on your own, the smallest things make you second guess yourself about, was this the right idea? What were some of those things for you?
Joe Daniels [00:18:54]:
One of the best things I've done since starting to work for myself was LinkedIn and like putting a steady stream of content out. Hey, it's helped me test the markets and stuff and helped me develop this new offer and so on. But also like, it built my network, it got my name out there, it's now bringing in work and I think I'm glad I started that back when I did at the very start of my time working for myself, even slightly before, I supposed. But it's easy to say that in hindsight that, oh yeah, it's great, but actually looking back on it, that was a struggle. It's so hard to start from basically nothing and not get much engagement because you instantly start going, am I just talking crap? Is the reason no one's responding to this because it's just nonsense or is it because no one's seeing it? Right. It's really easy to assume it's the nonsense part and really get hard on yourself and be like, God, I need to really up my game here. I'm just posting absolute crap, I don't know anything, blah, blah, blah. The reality is the algorithm's fighting against you the whole time.
Joe Daniels [00:19:51]:
As soon as you realize that, you're like, oh, okay, it's the algorithm's fault. It might not be, obviously, but in most cases it is. I think that was a big mental blocker for me, was just getting used to doing it for the sake of doing it and trusting the process of it, rather than trying to instantly try and get results from it. And I think that swapping of mindsets from like goal and outcome driven to just trust in that process, like, I know it works other people, why would it not work for me? And just doing it now, looking back, I'm glad I did it, but at the time there was lots of doubting and my goes like, is this crazy? My whole marketing strategy is built around at least six to 12 months down the line. Short term, financially wasn't the best decision, but it's worked out, I think in the end.
Nick Bennett [00:20:34]:
How'd you acquire your first clients?
Joe Daniels [00:20:36]:
My first client that I got was a tech company here in the UK and it was from LinkedIn. And it was just. Do you know what it was? Is like there was a guy, so he created a platform that. It's an AI platform that basically runs across the entire organization and collates all the sales calls, customer success calls, and so on, and then pulls out all the key insights so that it basically empowers anyone in the organization to access the insights as and when they need them. Rather than going to a data person and be like, can you go in and pull this out? Or trolling through all the sales calls and stuff yourself, you can just go in and get those insights. And I came across him and his company on LinkedIn and my first thought was this product would be really useful for some of my future clients. So I was like, you know what, Actually maybe there's some sort of partnership thing that we could do here. So we get on a call about that, we chat for like half an hour or so.
Joe Daniels [00:21:36]:
It seems like we're both really aligned. We're like, yeah, let's try and do something together at some point, part ways. It's one of those things where it could have easily just turned into nothing, right? Because it's been like, we never talk to each other again. And then I think like a day or two later he messaged you, like, you know what? I've been thinking about it. We could actually use your help for our product as well. And I was like, oh, okay. And then let's talk about that. And so we did.
Joe Daniels [00:22:00]:
So I guess it came from like a bit of a. Almost like an accidental Trojan horse. Right. I didn't mean to secretly pitch my services under the guise of let's have a partnership together. That is somehow how it turned out. But. But it definitely wasn't my intention.
Nick Bennett [00:22:14]:
I think too many people go into those conversations as the Trojan horse, like, knowing that that's what they're trying to do. I think we've all been burned by the term partnership. Like, I hate that word because it is a euphemism for I'm going to sell you my shit. And. And I think there's a level of genuine intent where it was probably clear that you were like, I'm not trying to pitch anything. Like, I legitimately is helpful for my clients.
Joe Daniels [00:22:42]:
What happened was I genuinely wasn't trying to sell. And so I never even really spoke about myself that much other than if the context required it or if, like, he asked directly, fine. I wasn't there to, like, I didn't have that agenda. And I think that does come through. It's very obvious when someone has that agenda. So I was like, just pitch me now. Let's just get out of the way. Just.
Joe Daniels [00:23:03]:
Just give me a pitch and we'll go.
Nick Bennett [00:23:05]:
It's a completely miserable experience for literally everyone. Okay, so you acquire your first clients. Was there a moment when you were, like, trying to get through or, like, build your service in a way that in running plays that you didn't feel like were it or that weren't really the thing until you got to what is? You were doing narrative design, as you were calling it. And I don't know if you're calling it something different right now, but it's like, how many iterations did it take you to get to a place where you were like, hey, this thing could really work?
Joe Daniels [00:23:32]:
I think I'm still always tweaking what I do. I think realistically, every new client is a slightly new iteration. But I think I was fortunate in that when it came to packaging up my services and that sort of productization, it wasn't technically productization, but it kind of was. It was very much like a Here's a fixed fee service here. You get this. You go through step one, two, three. It was very much like a packaged up thing. I think I had an advantage going into this, which is that I'd seen so many agencies struggle to do this for themselves when I was at Treacle, but me and Roland were very much, let's package up Treacle services as much as we could and had a lot of success with that.
Joe Daniels [00:24:13]:
And then I did it for myself based on that experience already. So, like, I think I was able to hit the ground running with that mindset of I should package up and productize as much as I can here because I genuinely believe that's the best way to do it. In most cases. It depends who you're selling to, obviously, and what you do. In this case, it felt right. And so I already had the vague pieces in place. Maybe each of those pieces has been changed and tweaked over time. I think I've realized that I maybe put too much emphasis on the strategy side.
Joe Daniels [00:24:45]:
I think I overweighted it in terms of like, if you look at like the distribution of the work, I was like, oh, most of the time is here on this strategic end because that's what I enjoy. It turned out actually very quickly that like the strategy, it wasn't, I'm not going to say easy, but it was quite straightforward. It was quicker to get to than I thought. I came to the realization that a lot of the time that point of view narrative sort of stuff is already in the client's head. And really I wasn't there to create it. I was there to facilitate getting it out of their head and down into some sort of structure. So when I realized that I had to change my approach slightly. Right.
Joe Daniels [00:25:23]:
I am just a glorified scribe. They've got this heavenly viewpoint. My job is just to be like, oh, I should note that down for you. There you go.
Nick Bennett [00:25:32]:
You're like, oh, that's interesting. Like, let me just make sure you don't forget that. Say it that way to more people, please. I have to tell a lot of clients that I'm like, say that. Say exactly what you just said. I'm going to write it down for you. I just recorded this call. Like, go back and watch how you said that because you're going to want to say that again.
Joe Daniels [00:25:47]:
I've genuinely had it recently where like half an hour into a workshop or something, like one of the founders just say something. I'm like that, that's it. Like you've got it there. Like we could stop right now and you've got it. I think I used to think that they wanted this long, drawn out strategy process because it would make it seem more valuable. And over time I've come to realize that the value isn't actually in the length of the pro. If I could get them to a good place in five minutes, that's better for them if anything, because it's like, oh, great, I've not to waste hours doing this. I think it was that kind of.
Joe Daniels [00:26:21]:
I've never sold time like a lot of freelancers and solopreneurs do, because I was wary that that's not a good way to do it. But I couldn't help but think in time, I mean, I couldn't help but be like, I'm still equating, even if it is a package price, I'm still equating that to a certain number of hours or days or whatever. So like I did still fall into that trap of pricing. It was basically time based pricing, but hidden. It was disguised as a package. And I was like, but actually I don't need to promise X hours of workshops and stuff like that because it's like, actually if we get there in half an hour, it doesn't matter. Right. So I think that's a tweak that I've made over time and I think that comes with the confidence of doing it right in terms of just, I know what I'm doing now.
Joe Daniels [00:27:06]:
So actually I'm confident that it's valuable regardless of how long it takes.
Nick Bennett [00:27:10]:
Strategy has a weird place in people's minds because it's this necessary part of the process that most people have been burned on buying.
Joe Daniels [00:27:20]:
Yep.
Nick Bennett [00:27:20]:
I also am convinced that nobody knows what the word strategy actually means. Like when they say strategy, it's just this euphemism for plan. They want it to be the sexiest plan, not what a strategy is. A plan is a plan.
Joe Daniels [00:27:33]:
I don't know if this is just a UK thing, but to confuse that further, in agencies in the UK at least, there's a certain type of agency that do a lot of media work, like buying media, paid media, that sort of stuff. Their strategists are often called planners, which makes it even more confusing because they're not planning really, are they? They're not like, oh, let's send that out at 2:00, they're doing the strategy. Even in agency worlds where most strategists exist, there's that overlap between those two words that makes no sense to me.
Nick Bennett [00:28:04]:
It makes no sense to anyone. So I think it's just like a, it's a mess. But either way, people are burned by the idea of strategy. So they want to get through it as fast as possible and they just want to get into doing. And I have found that clients don't necessarily give a shit what it's called. They just want to get to where you're trying to go and to be super rigid with the way that you do it is fine. It's Just strip out all the unnecessary stuff. I was guilty of this in the early days of trying to over engineer certain things.
Nick Bennett [00:28:35]:
I've spun my wheels on some, some concepts and really tried to get. Tried too hard to do something that was very incremental and bloated the program. And then one day you look up and you're like, I don't need this, I don't need this. I don't need this. And it's been stripped down. It's like, only things that make it a tangible difference.
Joe Daniels [00:28:55]:
Yeah.
Nick Bennett [00:28:55]:
Are going to be included. I just had Anthony Pieri from Fletch PMN on recently and he put it in a way that resonated deeply, which was be ruthless with your scope. He's like, that's just, that's what we do. And I, I very much agree with, with that approach. He's like, we're just ruthless with the way that we approach it and not in a mean way. It's just, this is what we do. We have a very specific way of doing it. We do this, then we do that, then we do this, then we do that.
Nick Bennett [00:29:29]:
Like, it's just, it's highly productized and very. And packaged up so cleanly that they can basically guarantee that they're going to get from A to B in a specific way. And it takes them any 0% more effort than, than necessary. Everything is super intentional. All that to say is not enough. I don't think enough people take that approach where it is highly intentional because they want to bloat the program to make it feel like they're adding value. And instead of creating value, which are two very different things, in my opinion. So that's my little soapbox on, on that.
Joe Daniels [00:30:07]:
No, I, I agree with you and I agree with Anthony and I think it comes from an insecurity of the more I do or the more I put in, the more I can justify that price tag. Jeremy's going to like, is that trying to justify the value that you're charging? The easiest way as far as people are concerned is to stuff more into it because, like, oh, well, you know, people pay more for more. That's logical. So let's add more.
Nick Bennett [00:30:34]:
Yeah. How do we make this like seven months instead of three? How do we make it two years instead of nine months and just cram it full of stuff?
Joe Daniels [00:30:42]:
I pay more for having more McDonald's food, but after eating it all and having too much in my belly, I'd be like, I would have paid more to have less, Joe.
Nick Bennett [00:30:50]:
I wish it was more Expensive. So I could have more. Less hammer.
Joe Daniels [00:30:53]:
Yeah. I wish I couldn't afford a McDonald's. Yeah, I think, I think there's like a, it's, it's swapping the mindset of being like, what do I want to do for them versus what do they need from me? I think it's, that's the difference.
Nick Bennett [00:31:06]:
This is an expectations alignment issue from the start, which I've found a lot of people face. So just to continue with the Anthony and Fletch's examples, like, they're very straightforward about what you're going to get. You're going to get production ready, homepage copy, boom, like very clear. It doesn't matter how much, how long it takes them to do it, it's going to cost you this and you're going to get that. They're getting, they're good enough, they've done this enough times to be able to get the result in like two to three weeks or something. Great. They can do it very, very easily and it's like 10 grand. Some people will take them two to three months, they might charge the same 10 grand, they might charge more, they might charge less.
Nick Bennett [00:31:47]:
The whole point is that like, it's just very clear what you're going to get versus getting lost in some of the more process driven stuff straight from, from the start.
Joe Daniels [00:31:57]:
I don't know how Fletch went about creating this process, but I do know that when we did a similar thing at tree core, we often started at the end, which was like, what is that final thing that they're getting from us? And then we'd be like, okay, what do we need to be able to do that? And then how do we get that from the step beforehand? What do we need to do that step? It forces you to be very economical in that it's. Instead of starting here at the start of it and you could go into all kinds of directions. It's like, well, start at the end point and work backwards with your process so that each previous step is very, very much directly related to the step after it. And I don't know whether that's how they did it, but I could see that working for that system.
Nick Bennett [00:32:39]:
Right.
Joe Daniels [00:32:39]:
Is that they could have started with, well, we're right in the homepage messaging. What do we need to do that? Oh, well, we need to know this, this and this. Okay, cool. How do we do that and like kind of work backwards from there?
Nick Bennett [00:32:50]:
Well, the problem that a lot of people in our position face is that it's their output, their outcome, the Deliver whatever the thing is that they're doing is highly intangible. Or it's very, like very muddy. Or IT systems like it's content strategy. It's just some. It's a little too obscure to package in that way, which I think not everything must be very cookie cutter or, you know, very cut and dry like that. But it really helps if you're struggling to just package it up so that it's very clear. Then you can expand and iterate and do and do all that stuff.
Joe Daniels [00:33:30]:
I think it depends whether you're selling the thinking or doing, doesn't it? Obviously selling both. Let's assume it's do it like Fletch culminates in doing something. It's not just the thinking part. Like, they don't stop after their positioning workshop. Obviously they carry that on into the homepage. I think if you're a consultant, it's maybe slightly different in that there's no tangible deliverable like a homepage. Right. It might be that actually it's just kind of a word doc or something.
Joe Daniels [00:33:55]:
But it's like the value lies more in the thinking than the doing. If you're a consultant, because you hardly do any doing, I think that's harder to package.
Nick Bennett [00:34:04]:
That's why people have such a sour taste in their mouth about strategy, especially when it comes to, like, stuff like brand strategy. They'll be like, I just got a PowerPoint. Like, what the fuck am I supposed to do with this PowerPoint now? And they're like, oh, like, I'm done with strategy. Like, oh, I got this, this Word document. Which it sound seems really nice, but I need to do it. I need to use it to make an impact. And if people don't get that, like translating theory into practical application, which again, is like, what? I think Fletcher is just a great case study for this. They can bridge the gap between theory and practical application very well.
Nick Bennett [00:34:40]:
And in their. In what they do and how they market, there's a lot of people in our position who struggle to do that. All of this thinking is great. I would love to think like this, but if I can't do anything with the thinking, I'm just collecting more thinking. Like hoarding Internet resources is not helpful. Like filling your Google Drive with a bunch of stuff that you never reference is not helpful.
Joe Daniels [00:35:04]:
I think that the two ways that I have in my head of solving that problem, how I would go about it and how I am going about it is either to attach the thinking to some doing right, like Fletcher done, that's the Fletch version or I do think the alternative is to. To stay with them during the execution, even if you're bringing other people in, or even if they're bringing other people in to make sure it's executed on right. That's the other side of it, is that you can still be an advisor in that sense. That's like, I'm not just going to give you your strategy and then disappear off into the sunset. I'm going to give you your strategy and stick around to help you implement it in the best way. You might not do it yourself, but I think there's an element of. Especially when we're talking with the sort of working with the solos kind of thing. Like, a lot of them might not have the budget to hire people to do all the doing side of things, but what they might be able to do is pay for you to meet with them once a month to go through what needs to be done and to keep them accountable and to give them feedback on it and stuff and steer them in the right direction.
Joe Daniels [00:36:11]:
And that's still a valuable way to. To give strategy without just giving strategy.
Nick Bennett [00:36:18]:
Yeah, 1, 1000%. Looking back on this, these last 11 or so months, what's something you would have done different?
Joe Daniels [00:36:28]:
Maybe the big thing that I've learned is to not care as much about, not take yourself too seriously almost is what I'm gonna say. Like, I can't find the right words, but, like, obviously a big part of what I talk about is having a very strong point of view and opinion on your category or industry or whatever. And obviously I have them for myself because I'm proof of my own concept. Inevitably there's going to be people that disagree with that point of view. And I for ages got really hung up on it. Like, really argumentative about it. Like, if I saw something that was like, arguing the opposite of what I believe, it really trigger me. And I'd get really angry about it.
Joe Daniels [00:37:07]:
And I'd go to my wife and start ranting and she'd be looking at me like, I don't know what the you're talking about. And, and yeah, so eventually, yeah, stop talking to her. Started talking to the dog instead. But like, but, but, but basically I got really irrationally angry about this stuff. And it's only more recently that I was like, you know what? Who cares? They've got their opinion, I've got my opinion. That's fine. Like, I guess, like, I took a step back and was like, I don't actually care that much and I shouldn't care that much. I'm not here to try and conv.
Nick Bennett [00:37:39]:
Right.
Joe Daniels [00:37:40]:
I'm here to find the people that agree with me and do stuff, cool stuff with them. And I think I wish I'd come with that conclusion earlier because it would have saved me a lot of stress and aging. Aging three years.
Nick Bennett [00:37:55]:
But.
Joe Daniels [00:37:58]:
Yeah, I mean, that's what I'd changed.
Nick Bennett [00:38:00]:
Part of having a point of view, in my opinion, is to repel people who don't want to see the world through your eyes. They don't want to see the world the way that you do. That's a good thing. And it's just, it's a weird feeling when people are like, you're dumb or you're wrong and you're like, I just want to reach through the screen right now. It's, it's, it's hard to reconcile that feeling, especially to Internet strangers. And you're like, I'm out here trying my best, putting thoughts out into the world, and you're just shit, posting all over it. Like, yeah, it's super frustrating, but. And I felt the same thing.
Nick Bennett [00:38:34]:
And I've rented to my wife and she's like, I don't know what the you're talking about. So I ran into the dog. I have two small children and they don't understand it either there. So I, I totally get where you're coming from. For me was the reflection on the fact that this work is supposed to repel people. And it's hard to. It's hard to remember that when some saying on your, on a comment.
Joe Daniels [00:38:56]:
I think that the worst part of it all is that rationally I was fully aware the whole time. I was kind of like, but this is exactly what I tell my clients to expect. Right? This is, this is like I, I'm just going through the same thing I'm telling them they'll go through. And my advice is always the same as yours, which is like, it's supposed to put people off, that's fine. But you kind of have to switch off that people pleasing mentality a bit in terms of like, everyone wants to be liked by everyone.
Nick Bennett [00:39:21]:
Right.
Joe Daniels [00:39:22]:
I think once you realize that, it doesn't matter and you don't have to be liked by everyone. That's quite freeing, I think, from a. At least from a mental anguish standpoint.
Nick Bennett [00:39:32]:
I could not agree more. So, Joe, let's end here. What's the future of LEFTFIELD look like? What do you want to build that you haven't built yet?
Joe Daniels [00:39:40]:
Ultimately, my plan is to become the Go to Guy for freelancers, solo business owners who want to do something different and stand out in a crowded market. And my plan for the next 12 months is to start working with those people. I'm currently putting together what that looks like in terms of an offer. I mean, we're recording this in December, so my plan is to launch in January, which is a very bold claim now that I've just looked at the calendar and that I've got Christmas and New Year to go first. So, yeah, that's what I'm doing on Christmas day. Packaging up all the offer, making sure I've got. I've already got a few names lined up who are like, actually, I'll be a guinea pig client for you. So that's all cool.
Joe Daniels [00:40:19]:
My plan is to just start that, iterate a bit, figure out exactly what works, what doesn't, and then try to basically help as many freelancers, creators, consultants, whatever they want to call themselves as possible over the next 12 months with the idea that I would start turning that into other things like a book and so on. Like, I want to write the book on this and like that sort of stuff and be famous and tour the world and eat lots of McDonald's.
Nick Bennett [00:40:49]:
This episode of 1000 Routes is sponsored by. Should be sponsored by McDonald's. Yeah, I don't know if they can afford it, though. Look, man, like I said in the beginning, I have a lot of love and respect for anyone trying to make a difference for Soulpreneur. So I hope you're successful. There are a lot of people out there who need your help. So I. I hope that this gets off the ground quick for you.
Nick Bennett [00:41:11]:
I hope you're not too busy on Christmas day packing this thing together because you got about 20 minutes till January. But I think you're on to something great here. And I know, I know there's a lot of people that need your help. So thank you for coming on, man. Thanks for sharing your story with me. It means a lot. I know a lot more people feel seen on their own journey, in their own route because of it. So I appreciate it, man.
Joe Daniels [00:41:30]:
Yeah, thank you.
Nick Bennett [00:41:36]:
Hey, Nick. Again and thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, you can sign up for the 1000 Routes newsletter where I process the insights and stories you hear on this show into frameworks and lessons to help you build a new and different future for your own business. You can sign up at 1000routes.com or check the link in the show notes. If you were about to board a rocket ship to Mars tomorrow, And tonight was your last night on Earth.
Joe Daniels [00:42:10]:
What.
Nick Bennett [00:42:11]:
What would be your last meal here?
Joe Daniels [00:42:13]:
This is gonna sound really lame when I say it out loud, but I'm gonna say it anyway. It would probably be McDonald's. I am an absolute sucker for it, and I kind of hate myself a little for liking it. It's one of those things that it's like I shouldn't. Shouldn't like it.
Nick Bennett [00:42:30]:
There's better food, but for some reason.
Joe Daniels [00:42:32]:
Yeah. Having said that, I imagine that one of the first things that opens on Mars would be a McDonald's, so actually, I wouldn't miss it. Right.
Nick Bennett [00:42:38]:
So actually, I should pick something else or Starbucks. One of the two. Are you a classic Big Mac?
Joe Daniels [00:42:42]:
Are you?
Nick Bennett [00:42:43]:
Double cheeseburger, quarter pounder, Big Mac, full.
Joe Daniels [00:42:47]:
Meal with a milkshake. Maybe I'll have some chicken nuggets in there as well.
Nick Bennett [00:42:52]:
Do you do, like, a flavored McFlurry?
Joe Daniels [00:42:54]:
I'm not a massive ice cream fan, actually, so I probably wouldn't go for a McFlurry. No. No.
Nick Bennett [00:42:59]:
You know, you're the first person to say McDonald's, but. Yeah, I feel like everyone is thinking it and know it, and you're the first person to just say it also.
Joe Daniels [00:43:09]:
Now I'm hoping McDonald's are listening and they'll go, oh, God, I should send this guy some of McDonald's.
Nick Bennett [00:43:13]:
Yeah, I'm sure there's McDonald's executives who listen to my show.