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“You are not built for fatherhood, but you are refined through it.”
“It takes a village — not to raise your child, but to support you while you do it.”
Raising Men is a podcast about parenting, masculinity, and the lifelong journey of raising sons—and ourselves—to be men of courage, character, and purpose. Hosted by Shaun Dawson, each episode features real conversations with parents, leaders, and thinkers redefining what it means to raising men in today’s world.
everybody I talk to
nine out of 10 have that exact same experience
and the one out of 10 is oh yeah
I fell in love with my baby
the instant he came out into the world
and
that's the abnormal thing
and it's beautiful and it's wonderful
and I'm thrilled for those people
yes but the normal thing is what you and I experienced
hi and welcome to the Raising Men podcast
my name is Sean Dawson I'm here with Caleb Scott
Caleb is the CEO of Better Dad Company
and the host of the Better Dad Podcast
he joins us from Springfield
Missouri where he's the father of one son
now Caleb
I don't want to put words in your mouth but
but I you have what is to me
a particularly challenging journey in
in fatherhood
but one that I don't think is particularly uncommon
and I think you and I share
almost a passion for this sense
that there is a cultural
uh tension against being a good dad somehow
and uh
and that's
I'm really excited to talk to you about this today
thank you so much for coming on
and I appreciate you taking the time today man
I'm happy to be here uh
you know kind of organically getting connected
and um
just having that first conversation about the desired
heartbeat for fathers and
and raising good men and you know
knowing that it's not just here
that it's geographically across the nation
where people are excited about encouraging men
especially in the in the space of being a father
I just you know
anytime we can continue this conversation it's
it's a pleasure to be a part of
you know what
one of the things that happened to me and
and it resonated with me in your story
is that
becoming a dad
changed me in ways that I would never have anticipated
prior to the point I mean
literally as my wife and I were walking to the hospital
as she was in labor
I didn't understand how much different I would be
12 hours later and
and it it
it it never I
I thought a lot about it we planned a lot about it
and it still
it still was so completely different that I
I didn't it was a shock to me
and I'd love for you to share your story uh
along the same lines
I think we had a similar experience there
yeah so um
I I had plenty of friends who had gotten pregnant
and had kids and
you know just that
just that camaraderie of being in the hospital
in the waiting room you know
sitting outside and waiting to hear that first cry and
you know just
just like the fun of being there together
so when we um
got pregnant
we found out that we were in the middle of a
a a global pandemic
uh you know
Covid was at its peak
and so that meant a huge shift in hospital practices
so
we didn't get to have our core group of support there
it was just her and I yeah
and so it was just it wasn't bad
it was just very different
you know expectations had to shift
and so we um
we we go through the process of delivering him
and as soon as they hand him to me the
the doctor walks in and goes hey
mom has Covid and so the whole room shut down
you know and
and now four or five years removed
we know kind of what we know
but right then you didn't know anything
and so I became a dad 12 seconds ago
and I just found out that my
my son's mom is
is potentially dealing with something very scary and
and crazy
and so the hospital staff said hey
you have to leave you have to get a third party test
to prove that you don't have Covid
so you're actually allowed back in here
so you know
trying to trying to navigate the emotions of here he is
oh my gosh is she okay
I have to leave and and maybe not come back was just
I'll never forget that Drive
I just felt so numb
I was just in this weird moment of just
I hope I don't have it and so I get the test
I don't have it I come back
you know they're still figuring out hospital practices
so we were put in this covid specific room and
you know it just wasn't ideal
and so after about two days of
you know resting in what looked like a broom closet
we were like you know what
I think I think it's probably time for us to go home
we can figure this out from here
and so then going home 14 days um
so my son actually ends up getting Covid as well
and so you know we're
we're in separate rooms
she's having to breastfeed with a mask on
like all the fun
tender moments of parenthood that you're anticipating
were were dramatically affected because of that
and so for 14 days
our families were just so anxious to come see him
and meet him and we couldn't because of this
this epidemic that had been affecting
you know not just that moment but our entire lives
the lives of everybody on the planet
so it wasn't ideal circumstances to start Parenthood
um but we made it
yeah that I
I can't imagine and all of the moments that
there's so many wonderful
tender moments that happened in those first
I don't know couple weeks
and they were all kind of stolen from you
weren't you weren't they yeah
you know and I don't know five
five years down the road now
I look back at a lot of things that
that were terrible in the moment
that ended up being such a blessing to us later
just because
you know we were
we were forced to kind of lean into some adversity
that made us a lot more intentional
that made us a lot more excited about parenthood
but yeah I
if I had it to do all over again I
I would not suggest you know
doing it solo and everybody getting Covid
and it being a huge panic
okay you know
that time must have felt really overwhelming
and I I
you know when you embark on the journey
if you if you embark on it intentionally you
you have a plan right
and you have your support structure
and you have your family
and all of that evaporated for you uh
it seems and so how did
you know how do you deal with that
how do you deal with the overwhelm
how do you deal with and
you know what would your advice be to somebody else
who was feeling that same way
I mean we're not
we're probably not gonna go through a global pandemic
in the near future again
fingers crossed but
but I think that feeling of overwhelm is universal uh
to some degree or another
you know Covid had already taken a lot from us
you know I lost my
job about a month before he was here um
and and just
just the reality of being in the medical field and that
having such a major shift
and who was allowed in the hospital and
and what um
hospitals were paying attention to and what mattered
so we had already experienced Covid um
taking something from us so this was like another um
shot to the heart um
but you know in in reality
no matter what level of parenthood you're at
whether it's you're about to be parents
whether you're just new parents
whether you're 25 years down the road parents
things not going right is a common theme
you're just gonna have to get used to
um
and and that's
that's the brilliance of parenting
is that if it was easy and if it was all mapped out
it wouldn't be as fun
it wouldn't be as much of an adventure
if you just had it all put together for you
you wouldn't love your kid the same
if it was super easy to love them all the time um
yeah and
and I'll be honest with you man
had it not been for my faith
I
I don't know if I really had a lot of hope in anything
you know it's
it's it's dangerous to
tie your identity to one specific thing
especially things that change or um
don't don't always feed our purpose
and so for me you know
the idea of of leaning
into my faith
trusting that God had a plan for what was going on
even though in the moment it was kind of crazy
yeah um
was
was genuinely a huge part of what dragged me through
what seemed like a really difficult time
yeah I can imagine that I
it so you
a global pandemic hits
uh shortly before that
you had found out that you guys were pregnant
right as a result of the pandemic
you lose your job in the medical field
and then this Covid thing absolutely disrupts what
what would normally be a particularly challenging time
just amping it up
to three or four times the level of challenge I
I I just really have a lot of empathy for
for what you were going through there
it my
our own experience um
our boy was 1 year old when
when Covid hit and that wasn't ideal timing either
I don't think anybody in the world thinks that
oh boy
Covid came at the perfect time right
right and um
um but we were positioned in
we had a place where we could work from home
we had an nanny lined up
that could help us take care of the the
the baby and
you know we both had jobs that could
support that kind of structure
sure and it was still really really
really difficult yeah
and I I
I'm really interested in what
sort of tools and techniques
and just the way of thinking
you mentioned your faith um
and the uh and
and how that helped get you through
what other tools and techniques
did you have at your disposal to
to help you get through that time
was there any fellowship with other men or
for sure you know and
and how did how
how did you get through that
yeah I mean the a
a good piece of advice is that
you know you always hear it takes a village and
and the reality is
is it's not even a village to raise your child
it's a village to support you while you do it
absolutely um
you know as men
we're so used to you know um
just put it on our back and
and we'll find a way to climb that mountain but
but the reality is is that
that that recipe ends in um anger
it ends in resentment and bitterness or
or just complete exhaustion
to the point that you just fail the people that you've
you've committed to helping
um so yeah
so fellowship um
having a good support system
and if it's just if your family
like if you have a great family
lean on your family
I know not everybody has the privilege of having um
a close support system from family
but family isn't always blood
um I
I was very fortunate to have very strong men um
that I had given the permission to have
you know the
the freedom to speak truth in my life
even if that truth wasn't easy to hear at the time um
you know hey Caleb
I I think right now you're in a
you're in a kind of a poor me position
I think
you need to pull up your bootstraps and get going
or hey man
I'm gonna come over and I'm gonna vacuum your carpet
you just sit down and chill and
and they're small things
and they don't seem very significant
but at the time and in the moment
it was such a breath of fresh air
because someone saw my struggle um
and participated in my struggle with me
and so um
my son's mom and I are not together
and so co parenting comes with its own list of
you know
added obstacles or difficulties or just challenges
and so you know
not only are you trying to figure out parenthood
but you're also trying to navigate a relationship that
that may have had some um
you know
trauma in it that you don't want to bleed onto your kid
and and you want to be able to try and repair
but you're also in a moment of exhaustion
trying to figure out you know
when they sleep what they need to eat
is this a normal cough is it a not normal cough
like there's so many things that you're worried about
so yeah so one of those things is community
the other thing that I talk about
a lot so when
when my friends get pregnant
or someone I know gets pregnant
I kind of send them this like
cheat sheet of things that I wish
someone would have told me
prior to becoming a father
and the one thing I say all the time is have Grace
yeah have Grace for your partner
have Grace for your child
have Grace for your parents or for your in laws
or Grace
for people that say things that they didn't mean
to say it
how it sounded
for the people that give you advice that you didn't ask
for for your kid who keeps you up at night
for yourself when you forgot diapers
or you didn't buy enough wipes
or you got angry when you shouldn't have
yeah having Grace
man that
that is abundant makes you so much better of a father
that it's it's
it's the singular piece of
of like emotion I try and possess at all times because
man I know that I fail and fall so short
and I want other people to have the security
to know that they don't have to be perfect
when they're around me as well
yeah everybody's trying their best
aren't they right
and and that's almost never not the case
everyone is pretty much trying their best
you know I
I uh
there are a number of books out
psychology books and and uh
even economics books
about the fact that we have two brains
in our head there's uh
there's the uh
what I call the the
the Conan the barbarian brain
um which is the much more primitive brain
and it's the amygdala
and it's reactive and it's emotional
and it's the
it's what you need when you see a lion in the jungle
or when there's a speeding car coming for your kid
you don't have time to think it through
and think about the physics of the situation
you just need to react
and then there's the Sherlock Holmes brain
where that's the analytical side
that's the prefrontal cortex
that's the thing that is supposed to take the signals
and incorporate them into your map of the world
and act appropriately and
and that the Grace that you mentioned
is a shorthand for remaining
in the Sherlock Holmes brain
rather than yeah
taking the anger that you feel about this situation
because your kid won't stop screaming
right and
and reacting and treating that as if it's real
you take it for the signal
it is why am I feeling so angry right now
oh I'm feeling so angry because I am at my wit's end
trying to figure out
trying to troubleshoot this problem with my child
and I feel inadequate I feel like this is
a symbol of the entire fatherhood journey
right and that is causing me to feel this anger
the kid isn't the problem
the problem is the framing
yeah and
and actually it's not even
merely a problem
it's also an opportunity to feel powerful
to feel to rise above that
but you have to stay in that Sherlock Holmes brain
you have to give yourself the Grace
and that also goes for other people
you give your child the Grace
that they're trying their best too
it is a baby it
the only signal that it has
to get you to do what it needs you to do
is the screaming yeah
and imagine how frustrating that is
I remember having the realization
when our boy was young he ate four or five times
what people were saying that we should feed him
he would just keep eating
it was the most amazing thing
we would eat we
we fed him 2 3 times um
the amount that they told us oh
you know he'll probably eat about this many milliliters
and he was at three times that
and he was still crying it turns out
he was still crying because he was still hungry
right
and the number of milliliters or any of that stuff
that wasn't
and that's not gospel
just keep feeding him until he's not hungry anymore
and it turned out that our boy's experience the first
I don't know month of his life
was that his stomach was too small
for him to feel sated his stomach would be full
and he would still feel hungry and
and so he was upset about that
and it was you know
and we had to troubleshoot through that
and it would I
I remember feeling this this anger
and that's that's what it was
it was this how could I be so bad at this
yeah and
you know you
you mentioned you didn't put it in these terms
but you mentioned the this
this lone wolf mythology that we have in our culture
and I've come to this realization relatively recently
that we all stand on the shoulders of giants
and everyone you see everyone you admire has a team
and and they have
you know they have partners
they have children they have parents
they have friends they have aunts uncles
they have non family family
and even if it seems like this person is a lone wolf
lone cowboy kind of ruling the planet thing
that's never the case
and if you think you need to do it alone
you're doing it wrong yeah
and I found that I was doing that a lot
I was not willing to rely on other people
I was not willing
to accept the wisdom that other people were giving me
because I wanted to do it my own way
and that
that's not right we
we need to find
it's not the most effective way to do it
the most effective way to do it is with community
yeah and I think
and you know
part part of that comes from
part of that comes from two is
is knowing what you've done prior to becoming a parent
you know a lot of the times I
I think it's so strategic
that we have nine months to prepare for a baby right
because because really
those nine months should be very
very intentional work
towards making sure your finances are in a position to
where you can adequately serve your household
yeah making sure that your emotions are in check
dealing with some things that you thought
you had dealt with but really haven't dealt with
investing in a community that when this baby comes
is there to support you
and so that nine months is a really crucial time
especially for men because
you know women
the moment they find out they're pregnant
are physically connected to that baby
that's right until it's born right
like
that's an immediate lifestyle change no matter what
for us as men you know
we hear it we're told it
you know we can see the ultrasound and
and we can know that we were a part of it
but really like until that baby is physically here
your role feels insignificant
but it's really not like
your role as a father
in those nine months is actually so crucial
because you are
building a way to facilitate potential problems
you're you're working on communication strategies
you're working on things that you are ahead of time
seeing down the road
knowing that a major change in our life
a major change in how we spend
uh where we spend our time at
who we spend our time with is coming
and I can either wait
and try and figure it out on the fly
which is just not my suggestion
because of how difficult it is
but you can really start in this moment and say man
there's a lot of things that I think I could tighten up
that would bless my family
and bless my household when this baby comes
yeah
yeah I
that preparation aspect I
I absolutely love that sentiment
I it's something that I wish that I had appreciated
and done more
when when we were expecting
when we had I
I I wasted those nine months frankly and um
and so ended up scrambling on
on the other side of it
and you know
don't get me wrong like
as much as I would love to say
we got it all figured out in nine months
like there there's a lot of time I wasted
oh yeah
yeah yeah and and
and I'd love to say
I haven't figured out five years down the road
but I don't right um
so yeah
so people that are listening that are like man
I wasted my nine months it's over
no it's not over but
but if you if you have the privilege um
to actively prepare fatherhood
you are successful in fatherhood
with adequate preparation
because it's inevitable that your kid
is gonna say something do something
experience something
that affects the way that you function yeah
your kids your kids mom is gonna do things
experience things
say something that affects the way that you function
and either
you can be the peace that blesses your household
or you can be the gasoline on a
on a smoldering fire that sets everything ablaze
and that that comes from individual work
that's not necessarily something
you can rely on your wife for
you can rely on your kid for
because they're hoping that you've got enough peace
about you that when bad things happen you don't panic
you know
that's that is such an excellent point and you know
there's a third option too
which is you run away and you
and you don't confront the issue at all and so
you know
dealing with conflict is is a real challenge uh
for a lot of men I think
and I certainly struggled with this and
and obviously
the hardest way to deal with conflict is to head it to
to keep calm and deal with it straight on
and I think a lot of us choose avoidance
or a lot of us choose choose
we puff up our chests and we
and we confront it in an unhealthy way
how do you how do you feel like fathers can model
a healthy way to deal with conflict
especially you know for their sons or you know
how do you deal with conflict
how do you think about conflict
and the truth is is that we
we are a product of of what we saw
uh I fully believe that men will do better
when they're shown better
yeah men require demonstration
and so a lot of the times
if we ever saw our dad handle conflict
that's kind of
the natural way that we lean into handling conflict
ourselves so if your dad was an explosive
angry type you tend to be that way
or you tend to be so anti that
that you end up going complete opposite direction
to where you're just kind of a pushover
and you don't care about anything
and you just let it all happen
that's right so
so conflict management strategies come from
a handful of places No. 1
like I talked about it's your identity
if your identity is in something that is temporary
or that often changes through the fluidity of culture
or you know we
I so the other day I
I have a partially torn rotator cuff
and
it's affected the way that I've been able to work out
and so like
God has been convicting me about my identity in
in in fitness
and like don't get me wrong fellas
like I want you in the gym
being the best version of yourself
physically that you can be
but
when something as minuscule as a minor injury occurs
that it that
it warps your entire ideology of who you are as a man
that's dangerous absolutely
you know what I mean when
when even in fatherhood
like a lot of a lot of culture and society
glamorizes a really bought in father
but
almost to the point that we've pushed a dad to saying
hey you're only good when you crush it as a father
so that when you do inevitably fail
which we all will it
it wrecks your whole world
that's right and so if you've not
if you've not Learned how to separate your identity
from things that change you're just on a path of
of constant disaster because we fail
that's we
we are human beings
and the other thing I think
that's super important about conflict management is
is perspective
you know
it's really easy to look at the rest of the world
and think about how it serves you
or how it's failed you
the reality is
is that everybody wakes up every day with something
you know what I mean like on
on the same planet we live right now
while recording a podcast
there are kids that are starving
yeah I mean seriously
like that's a real a real life issue
that there are kids waking up today
looking for their next meal
to keep them alive for today
yeah and so perspective really matters
you know when
when when your child is tired and they're hungry
and they're over stimulated
and I that's your job man
that's where you get to slide in and
and be the peace when
when your kid's mom has
has been taking care of the house and has been
you know trying her best to
to navigate this and and the baby's not listening or
or you know
your toddler's being a crazy person
if you don't have the perspective to look at her
or to look at your kid and know man
in this moment you must be really going through it
how can I bless it all you're gonna do is see
this affects me this upsets me
this bothers me so
then your response is gonna be out of a victim mindset
and you can't be a successful father and a victim
that's right yeah
I I
I'm not sure that you could be a successful person
and a victim also fair
but certainly not a successful father and A
and a and a victim
and you know
that brings to mind the concept of accountability
and I
I remember something you said from our prep sessions
that puts it so succinctly
that I'd love for you to expand on
which was that accountability is love
and I feel like that's such a powerful statement
I would love to inspect that some more
how how do you feel that applies to fatherhood and
and how do you how does that apply to your son and
and your dynamic with your son's mom
yeah so it's a process um
I think I think if I can frame anything for anybody
is that if you don't have it figured out today
it doesn't mean you won't eventually
have it figured out you know
this this is a
this is a clay pot that we are waking up and shaping
every day
if you think that there's gonna be a final product
at 3 years old you're
you're confused
and you're gonna get your feelings hurt
so No. 1
knowing that every day you're just doing your best
so the the Better Dad
podcast came with not being better than anybody else
but with an effort to be better as often as we can be
yep and so the idea of accountability in love
it's just like we look at our kids and you know
my son walks in and wants to grab a kitchen knife and
and sword fight with it right
why while in his head he 100% has no intention of of
you know cutting anyone's finger off
that's the reality that could happen
yeah so my ability to foresee potential problems
and in that moment
caution or speak against his decisions prevents future
um
problems yeah
and so that
that essentially is accountability from me to my child
but also like I spoke about earlier
having a community of accountability as well
for people that you trust
and you've given permission to
to say hey man
this is not you
this response is is completely out of character
are you good do we need to step away do
we need to go you know
hit a few golf balls and
and like get some stuff off your chest
because your family relies on you to be a central
focal point of peace right
like our our
our children and our
our children's parents thrive when we
at our core are peaceful yeah
this world is full of chaos
there's always gonna be chaos
you turn on social media or the news
it's chaos after chaos after chaos
that's right that's the business model of those
and so if if
if we can't find a way to
to navigate that chaos you know
it doesn't mean that it goes away
you can't
you can't keep your kid or your household from chaos
you know that
I think the other mistake we make as parents
sometime is that
we're so quick to keep our kid from
scraping their knee from riding the bike
that they never learn how to deal with the scraped knee
it's not necessarily preventing chaos
it's it's educating um
how how to handle it
but also remaining um
in a place of peace from it
so yeah
the the accountability is love is
is our culture is so about tolerance and acceptance
and and I really think that that's a tough model
for accountability
because we just accept whatever it is
for however it is
because we don't want to hurt somebody's feelings
or say the wrong thing yeah
but in my household it's not about
acceptance and tolerance right
it's about prevention and
and education and it's about
you know I was
I was I was instructed and
and given the responsibility of taking care of my son
and it would be a disservice to his well being
if I was not willing to hold him accountable
even if it was difficult yeah
yeah there's
one of the signals that I
that I've understood about the world
is that there's always attention
and so when you say oh
you know we need accountability or
or sorry we need
we need acceptance and love
okay that's great
but what is that intention with
and that is intention with accountability
and there's always that tension always exists
and you need to find the healthy balance
at any moment of how much do we need of this thing
at the end of the story
what you need to create as a father
in my view is you need those castle walls
you need your family to feel like okay
in this area we're safe
we're psychologically safe
we're physically safe we can deal
the chaos that's out there in the world
isn't going to come in here
it's not made it is dampened here
it is not made worse here
yes and all of this
all everything we're talking about here
the accountability the acceptance
the love the uh
the Grace all of that is contributing to that walled in
safe space where we can feel okay I
I am I am free to explore my personality
I'm free to explore
with behaviors and one of the things
so my son constantly does things that
that blow my head up I it like
how can you be that crazy to have done that thing
this morning he took
the television remote and put it in his mouth
just as far back as it would go
just to experiment and see how things would go
and on the one hand that drives me crazy
and he's looking at me when he does that and I said
what are you doing did you just put that in your mouth
and he goes yeah
it just it just felt good
and I go we can't put the remote in our mouth man
and he goes okay
but so on the one hand it's maddening
because what are you doing
putting the remote in your mouth
on the other hand
there's a part in the back of my head that says
you know what
you've kind of succeeded as a father in this moment
because he felt safe enough to do that experiment
that's good and the experiment was crazy yeah
but at least he feels like he can experiment
he doesn't feel like
I'm gonna fly off the handle or go something crazy
or do something insane or anything like that
and I thought
I had that thought this morning when that happened
and frankly he does stuff like this every day
and there's that tension again right
it's the tension between I want him to
to feel comfortable
to go out and find his individuality
but I also need him to be part of
the social fabric of the world
and to collaborate with other people
you know one thing that's it's
I was thinking about in in this idea of
how far do we go with intervention with our kids
at what age you know
do we let them experiment further the older they get
I'll never forget in my in my mid 20s
I was just chasing the world and my mom
who was a
and continues to be a spiritual foundation in my life
was so clear about being against where I was
and what I was doing but so present and loving me yeah
that she didn't have to accept what I was doing
in order to love me the same way
and her willingness to love me
while also being staunchly against what I was doing
was
like the greatest form of love I've ever experienced
yeah
and her ability to both love me
but also stand firm in what she knew was wrong and
and
make it a point for me to understand that it was wrong
yeah like that was such the greatest form of love
I think I've ever experienced
because
just like we said about your circle of influence
you'll find that you've got a lot of yes men in your
circle
because either your relationship gives them purpose
you've got some business acumen
they're trying to absorb
you're just in the same field at the same time
so it just makes sense to be together right
but the reality is
is that the people who really matter
who really have an impact on your life
and what you're doing
are the ones who can both actively love you
but resist poor behavior yeah
and that's that's true love
and so the same thing with my child
I want my son to know man
I've got your back
and I love you fiercely and unconditionally
but I also resist this type of behavior
because I know it's incorrect
yeah I somebody who can give you
constructive criticism is a gold mine in your life
absolutely nobody
and and
and you should be able to do that for other people
as well and
and cause it's hard people will tear you down
people will be happy to tear you down
and people will be happy to blow smoke up your skirt
uh huh very few people will actually give you criticism
that is that is constructive in nature in
in in a positive way
in a way that is there to build you up
and um I think a lot of people are
resistant to hear criticisms
um we're used to hearing them from our enemies you know
in the form of attacks right
and when it comes from our friends it
can feel really scary
because maybe we don't have the community
we thought we did right
right and
but we need to have again
it goes back to that Grace
of being able to hear the difficult thing
to hear and respond with gratitude
yes and
you know mom
that's not the kind of thing I wanted to hear right now
but I really appreciate you being willing to share
it is a tough you know
it wasn't it wasn't even an immediate response either
right like I stayed in this
in this path of destruction
yeah and I just remember
knowing where she stood
but also not feeling any kind of
resistance from our love and like that was
it was it was such a weird but like heavenly balance of
man I love you so much
but I love you so much
that I'm not willing to accept or
or tolerate what you're doing
because I have always cared about your well being
and I know how this ends and so
the other the other thing about
about community
cause we we as men struggle with this we
we go man
we want good strong men in our life
but you know where
where are those guys at how do I even find them
that's right and
you know we think it's in the workplace
or it's a buddy we golf with on the weekends and
and you find yourself
in these very surface level conversations
yep how
are the kids how's golf
how's work good
good great
I mean as men
we say it's fine it's fine
it's fine and we don't really know that
there's 257 other emotions that we can have
as responses to stuff it's either I'm fine or I'm angry
that's what we know that's right
so developing a community first means being someone who
who can participate in community driven things
like how do you invite other men into your life
I talked about giving permission
one of my closest friends
um Nick is a guy who when we first met
I would have hit him in the mouth for talking to me
the way that he talks to me right
but but as we have done life together and as we've like
really
he's carried me through a lot of really tough moments
um his ability to say really difficult things
I've had to give him permission to
and even now there are times where I'm like dude
you're way off base I'm not trying to hear it
but three four
five hours later when I've sat in it
I'm like man
he's so right yeah
and and I know he's right because
because Nick doesn't need anything from me
he's not my friend because
I've got some sort of
business acumen that he's trying to
to absorb and work for his business
he's there because he loves me and he loves my kid
so when he speaks some hard truth
into my life it's because he loves me
I'm like that that kind of community
that kind of like relational
um proximity from another strong man who's
who's actively seeking to be a good father
and a husband in his own life
it's invaluable that's right and
and I think that
so my wife has eight women like that in her life and um
if we're not careful we'll end up with zero
and I think a lot of men have zero
have zero friends
essentially meaning people that they could
come to in a real moment of desperation
you know what's funny is that
and I've I've given this analogy to men before
when you're getting married in your early or late 20s
men never have a problem picking their groomsmen
it's always the
the brides that are trying to find bridesmaids or
or you know
yeah have enough or have the right ones or
you know does Tiffany not get along with Haley or
you know all this stuff right
but then you flip it and you go 20
30 40 years down the road into your marriage
if you were to ask those men
hey if you were to get married again today
who would be your groomsmen
uh huh and the panic that comes over those men's face
because all of those men
that they thought were their day one guys
they haven't spoken to right
and the women they've
you know they've got a whole
book club of people that they can get together with
right now they'd have 30
40 women up there and and we're like okay
so why are we struggling I go yeah
because we have no groomsmen yeah
we have no men in our corner and so like the
the toughest thing about 30 and on
is that our male friendships dwindle and
and we say we get busy or we say
you know we just don't like the same things
but just like anything it takes active participation
it takes a willingness and and um
I think
we've just lost the value in what it means to have good
strong men in the same room and like
what kind of stuff that inspires for them
and the rest of the world
and their families
and we're losing the cultural institutions
that made that happen by default
a little bit right
I mean everybody's work from home now
and so there isn't the office
you know
you don't have the office friendships you used to have
because because you're not going into the office
and having lunch with right Joe um
the the
significance and importance of churches
has dwindled substantially
in the last 20 years or so
and so we don't have that as fellowship anymore
we don't have nobody's you know
you know you there are
there are no young members of the Masons right
and and that's something
I think we would do well as men to
figure out how to rebuild because the tools are there
right the
in this digital virtual age
we should be able to create that sense of community
in a positive way
much better than everybody could 50 years ago
yeah for sure
but we're we're not quite there yet
we're still maybe it's just we're
you know we're 20 years in
and we're still in the early days of social media
but it seems to me that social media is being used as a
as a way to drive people apart
or create anger these days
as opposed to to bring fellowship
and that's
we need to be intentional about creating these spaces
where where men can have fellowship
I think yes
and again like I said
the the
the podcast that I started was
because when I started to look for literature on like
dads that were just ripping space apart
crushing it
that there just wasn't a lot of dynamic literature
it was like hey man
love them keep them alive
do your best and I was like I
I had those three down I think right
but like where
where was the where was the value in like community
where was the value in Grace and conflict management
and and losing your identity to fleeting
changing fluid things
like none of that was there
and so like
I am not the authority on anything at all
so like don't
don't Google my PhD cause it's in nothing
you won't find it but you know what I mean
like just the heart of like pioneering um
vulnerability out loud and saying man
I did this well you should try it
or like I totally screwed this up
you should avoid it yeah
you know
another one of those tensions that
that brings to mind for me
is this tension between vulnerability and resilience
and I'm I'm wondering
what
how you feel about that and how you think about that
and you know
obviously resilience comes from experiencing pain
and experiencing failure
and getting back up after you fall off the horse
um and
you know you want to encourage that in your boy
you want to make sure that he
that he has resilience on the same token
you want to express your empathy too
right and
and so
somehow you have to communicate that I'm here for you
I have your back
but you're the one who needs to stand up
and dust yourself off and go
get back on the horse I can't put you back on the horse
and that's a tension that I've really struggled with
in my in my journey
I wonder how you deal with that
so it's funny
I yesterday
the day before was National Sons Day or whatever
something came across Facebook
and I posted a picture of my kid
and I said fatherhood is about balance
it's about sometimes knowing that boo boos need kissed
and sometimes knowing that
boo boos need dirt rubbed in them
sometimes knowing that he needs water
and sometimes knowing he needs an ice cold Fanta
you know it's sometimes knowing that just
just the the navigating each moment
because there's no handbook
or rule book on how this is supposed to be
there really is a lot of value in a mother
and her nurturing ability
and there's a lot of value in a father
in his position of security
yeah and when you co parent
you kind of have to absorb both roles sometimes
yeah I can imagine
and that's and that's tough
because that can be confusing to your kid
um and that can be
that can be essentially stealing from them too
because you weren't adequately designed to
to facilitate that role at all
but
so my son very often
and and
and not just my son but
you will see that
kids look to how you react to the conflict
they experience
you know if he falls down
the the women in our life are oh
are you okay and like
it's just this immediate panic
and it's not from a wrong place
they are like fixers and and helpers and nurturers
and so
they saw their baby hurt and they want to run to him
but I also know that my son looks at me and he goes
my response is is gonna be
directly affected
by the way that my dad responds to this
mm hmm and
if I'm not prepared I have the same panic
yeah and if I instill panic in my son's life
his default response to conflict will be panic
that's right and so it
it doesn't mean bubble wrapping him
when he rides a bike it doesn't mean
not allowing him to go to birthday parties
cause kids have snot they might get it on him
it's it's not any of that
it's the idea that
hey man
when you get in my truck
can you tell me about something that happened
so they at a school
they can
they can lose points or get points for behavior
whatever it's a
it's a great way for parents
to partner with the schools
you know after
after school hours yeah
and so I saw on the app that he lost a point
so we got in the truck and I said hey
what happened
he said well
this kid was doing this and I said hey
I said I'm not that kid's dad
and I asked you what happened
and so he stopped for a minute and
and like
he saw that I wasn't gonna continue the narrative
that it was somebody else's fault
and and that's a small thing
but at 5 years old it's
I've never taught my son how to lie
you know what I mean
there wasn't like a class where we sat down and said
hey this is how you get yourself out of trouble
you just tell somebody what they want to hear
that's never been taught to my son
of course not but somehow my son knows how to do that
yep right
there's a brokenness about us as humans
which which is why I believe as a Christ follower
that we need Jesus but when I when I look at my son
he has by default Learned how to protect himself
almost at a
scary disadvantage and I really believe that that
like true
masculine fatherhood comes in learning to apologize
asking for forgiveness and and doing it organically
not being forced into it
so we had this conversation in my truck where I said
hey
regardless of what somebody else does what did you do
like what was your response in this moment
and he realized that yeah
he could have been better
he could have walked away from that situation
and so
a lot of times it's trying to help your kids
get to the realization that you've already known yeah
because we have 30 40
50 years of life experience that we've you know
stepped in enough potholes to know
we can see one 10 feet away and be like alright
I'm gonna swerve but my son
who's just now learning how to drive
is hitting every pothole along the way
that's right so
so I can either go pave the road for him for right now
and he just have this smooth sailing
and then when he goes to college at 18
he's never seen a pothole
then he just wrecks his entire life
yeah or I can help him navigate potholes or
or repair his car once he drives over
you know what I mean so it's just yeah
of um
not keeping our kids from panic
um but
but
having a response of peace and security in that moment
so that they know how to handle things adequately yeah
yeah and there's
you know there are potholes in the road that aren't
gonna damage the car and then
there are ditches on the side of the road
that will destroy the car
hmm and you can't let him go off into the ditch
but you gotta let you gotta let him hit the potholes
right and there's again
going back to this kind of central theme
there's always attention
and there's a tension between bubble
wrapping your kids and
you know when they get off in the world
they're going to be completely unprepared
and there's also a tension between letting them
letting them experience
issues that aren't recoverable from their age
right or
or that will cause permanent damage
we can't let that happen either
and it's I sat with a counselor one time
a counselor told me kids are really resilient
yeah and I remember hating that
I hate I still hate that
like kids are resilient
they will recover from your parents mess UPS early on
that sucks that's
that should not be a statistical fact
that counselors are telling people right
like I don't need my son to be resilient
he wakes up every day
learning how to be a better person
you know I
I want his biggest obstacle to be
do I want Cheez its or do I want lays for lunch
that's that's what I want my son to
to labor over right
not whether or not his dad was unhealed
not whether or not his dad couldn't give up
certain addictions or not
because his dad wasn't willing to do the repair
so that he could be a whole healed person for his son
uh huh so while kids are resilient
I think fathers
fathers need to avoid having resilient children
yeah fathers need to avoid
forcing their kids to be resilient
yeah I think part of
I think one of the tensions there is
that's absolutely true
but going back to what you said before
you also need to give yourself the Grace
to recognize that
just cause you screwed that one thing up
doesn't mean your
your kid is resilient and we'll get over that
it will be okay
um
but you did screw it up
and you need to make sure that doesn't happen again
yeah the reality though
is that you can still lead and screw UPS
I think that's what men miss men
men have never been taught that
bad things can yield good things
we've been told that as a society
if you did something
wrong that's on your permanent record
that will dictate who you are
in the way that the world sees you
the reality is is that when I screw up
I have an opportunity to get on my knees
and look eye to eye with my child
and tell him that I was wrong
that's right and I can
I can even educate him and teach him on how to be wrong
my my
my ability to apologize to own responsibility
to ask for forgiveness from my 5 year old
shows him how to experience being wrong
and doing it in a manner of Grace
and doing it in a manner of respect
because again as men
we are the dismissive culture
like out of sight out of mind
as long as I just tuck it in my pocket
no one will ever see it no one will ever know it and
and then it just and it just grows
and it grows and it grows and it grows
and then the reality is is I've had to learn
I wanted to be a hero for my son
from the moment he was born
I wanted to be I just a superhero
but the reality is
is that if I convince my son that I do no wrong
and eventually he sees me do wrong
I will have shattered his entire expectation
of what it looks like that's right
so I think hero qualities for humans
you know not for Iron
Man or for Thor or Hulk I think
hero qualities for men come in learning to apologize
often
to ask for forgiveness
to be gentle in gentle moments and bold in bold moments
you don't have to pick a side
I told my son the other day this intruder drill
because unfortunately we live in a world now
where five year olds have to practice
what would happen
if some psychopath showed up to their school
yeah
so he was he was nervous about it
he was asking me like
I don't really wanna go to school tomorrow or like
what is this what is this
what is this and
and I said son here's what'll happen
if that ever occurs they will lock the doors
and so I'm
I'm fortunate enough to have one of his teachers
be a relative of mine
and so I said
what will happen is they'll lock the doors
you guys will go hide
our relative will text me
and I will come to the school
and I will dismember him in the parking lot
and I will leave him in pieces
for the rest of the school to see when they leave
and it was morbid and it but I was dead serious
yeah and so
he's sitting in the back of my truck looking at me
and he goes I know that to be true
and so while some moments
I'm on my knees looking at him saying
daddy messed up I'm
sorry I'm also telling him that
I would rip his arms and legs off
the person that ever tried to hurt him
yeah so you can live in both worlds
yeah that's right
you have to otherwise you
you fall down this road of push over or you're just the
the guy who tries to lead out of fear and manipulation
and you go the opposite direction
so it's about balance man
it really is yeah
give me
I'd like to end by
by talking about one thing that you just look back on
and wish man
I wish I'd done that differently
what's one big mistake that you made
or one one thing that
if I gave you the chance to do over one thing
what would it be
that's tough um
because now five years in
everything that was in the moment bad has only
has only produced a high caliber of character
that's made me love my child more
two two things I'll say
No. 1 if at all possible
find a way to make it work with your kids parent
I understand that things happen and that there are
you know brokenness and relationships and
and things that hurt
but it is it is easier to parent in the same house
and if it is all possible to put your pride aside
to find a way to make it work
even if it's 10 years down the road
um I
I would always advocate for a
whole household now
if that doesn't happen
doesn't mean you cannot be successful
doesn't mean you cannot still work in harmony with the
with the other side because it's totally doable 100%
but that would be my first thing
and the second thing that I think I would suggest
a mistake that I made
and then I'm I'm actively making it's
it's it's consistently removing yourself
from the position
where your identity as a father is the sole
driving point to what you do
because when they're 6 months old
all they do is you know pee poop cry and sleep yeah
and so you can take as many pictures
you can put him in the stroller
and take him to the mall
and you go to the park and everybody's like oh
you're so great you're so great
but then they become 3 and 4 and 5
and then you take them to a restaurant
and then they have breakdowns
and everybody looks at you and you're like
oh dude you're making me look bad
and I was this good father and I was I was killing it
but now people are looking at me
and I'm not this good father anymore
and I found that my identity as a dad is
is just as fluid as everything else in my life
so
so I really know that having a relationship with Jesus
that I have found my hope in that
I'm genuinely like it's this is it allows
me to have the freedom to find purpose
but not identity in these other things
and so knowing that when I do screw up
which is inevitable
there is Grace that allows me to repair
and move forward
I I love that sentiment
I I
I um
I I absolutely love that sentiment
um on the flip side of that
what is one thing that you've done
that you just are proud of
that you just I know I crushed that
being present
um a lot of times
men think that they are ill equipped to be fathers
and the truth is you are
we are 100% ill equipped
there is not enough books you can read
there is not enough parenting classes you can attend
there's nothing you can do
to fully prepare you for becoming
responsible for another human being
yep but you can show up
and even if it's been 15 years since you've showed up
you can show up today or tomorrow and
and while there may be resistance
and while there may be things that you don't know
or that you're not really sure how to navigate
the reality is is that my son may say I've been a mess
he may say I've handled things poorly
he may say that you know
I did all these different things
but he can say it because he saw it
because I was there
and so I fully believe that
that the greatest gift you can give
your child is your time that currency is ever
ever ever
ever being spent every day everywhere we go
and whether you work an 8 to 5
when you get off you better lock in
you better put your phone away
you better get in front of your kid
and you better remind them how special they are
if you have the privilege to work from home or
or have a job that you have some flexibility um
one thing I'm very grateful for
both his mom and I have had flexible work schedules
that he didn't have to have daycare um
in the first three three
four years of his life yeah
and so we got some really
really good time with him and
and it's really made an impact on his development
and he is so secure even in two households knowing that
man my mom and my dad
they were there and
and I never had to wonder
if my dad was gonna be at a soccer game
or never had to wonder if my mom was gonna
you know come be a part of this
like we were there so your presence man
your presence matters
yeah and and
and more than just being there
physically being there with your attention and
and your
and your mental energy you're not
you know browsing Twitter or
or um
you know text messaging unnecessarily
right while you're supposedly with your kid
and I find that that can be
some of the most fulfilling time
that you end up spending with them
is that just trash time
you're just driving in the car and hanging out
and having some conversation about whatever
I I've
I found that to be some really
really gold nugget time
something I'm doing in the I
we talked about this in the
in the console prior to this episode is that in
in the studio that I'm that I'm in right now
we own
we've started something called the Legacy Project
and we bring men in and we tell their stories of
you know
birth origins all the way to where they are now
and we ask them questions about their own father
you know what is the best thing he did for you
what is the worst thing he did
how's your relationship with him now
and 10 15 guys all had a similar response
and it it
it wasn't that my dad gave me everything I wanted
there was never one Christmas
I remember getting a cell phone or
or getting a car or like none of them
not a single person
cared about a single Christmas or birthday gift
they ever got never mentioned
none of them cared what their dad did
none of them not one person was like
well my dad was the CEO for this company
and so it got us cool perks
and we got to go to basketball games
and none of them every single person
that sat in this room that poured their heart
about their relationship with the father
is that he was there
I I don't even
I don't even remember how he responded
I don't even care how he responded
I just knew he was there
I just knew that when I came home from school
that he was there when I woke up
he was there I watched him ride the lawn mower
I watched him play baseball with me
and like they
they weren't praising their father's attributes of just
of just amazing psychologically healed
perfect fatherhood characteristics
yeah it's not as difficult as
as what we think
there's a lot of men that have run from this
this privilege
because they thought they weren't built for it
the truth is you're not
but you are crafted in the midst of it
like you are refined through fatherhood
fatherhood brings out the greatest parts of you
and I we talked about this and this
I'll tell you this last thing
I'm an only child I've no brothers or sisters
I've got no DNA shared with anybody
I don't you know
nobody looks like me it's probably a good thing
but so
so I I become a father
and I'm holding him and I know he's my kid right
like I know I was there for the birth
I was there for the delivery
I saw it they handed him to me
I'm on the birth certificate like all these things
but you know I
I was like I don't know
I don't know if I've connected with this thing
and I was I was like
I'm a piece of crap dude how
how do you not connect with this
yeah and I'm so frustrated because his mom
she had no problem like that
that was her baby
from the moment she found out she was pregnant
and he came out and it was hers and she loved him and
and he ate from her and he loved her
and she sued him and so I'll never forget
I was about 90 days in
and he's in his bassinet
and he wakes up and he's crying
and and I I
I run in there you know
you just so panic you think something's going wrong
and I grab him and I pick him up and I look down at him
and I've been a father for like three months
and I look at this little boy
and for the first time I like
remember seeing a baby picture of me
and then seeing him and being like dude you
you came from me this is so cool
and then when I spoke and he heard my voice
and he knew that my voice was safe
and he stopped crying dude like I
I was I was shook
because I was given that privilege
to be the security for another human being
that my voice that my heartbeat
that my smell that
my temperature gave peace to another human
but it was 90 days after he was born
that's right and so all these men are like dude
you know I
I'm kind of embarrassed to admit that
it wasn't love at first sight
and I'm like dude
I'm telling you right now
I didn't you know
I knew I was supposed to
but I didn't fall in love with him until
like 90 days in
and at first I was embarrassed to admit that
but what I found is that when I talk to men
men struggle with that too
you know
we didn't have the privilege of it growing inside of us
so overnight they're just like
hey now
you are responsible for this entire child's well being
forever good luck
and you're like oh Sheesh
and I'm having a hard time manufacturing care for this
yeah thing
yeah and I uh
this was exactly my experience as well
and I had
I felt like the ideal was
you fall in love with your baby
the instant he looks you in the eye
which is what happened with my wife as well
and that
it couldn't be farther from the truth from me
and I felt ashamed
and I felt like a failure right out the gate
and what I discovered is that that's the norm
everybody I talk to
nine out of 10 have that exact same experience
and the one out of 10 is oh yeah
I fell in love with my baby the instant he came out
into the world
and that's the abnormal thing
and it's beautiful and it's wonderful
and I'm thrilled for those people
yes but the normal thing is what you and I experienced
yeah it's a struggle and it doesn't come naturally
we are not wired the way women are
and it's and it's not talked about either
like I think I think men suffer in silence a lot
because admitting that would would
would tell the world and he doesn't love his kid
it feels shameful that's exactly right
when deep down
all that dude wants to do is love his kid
that's right and so I think conversations like this man
what you're doing is so crucial
because there are fathers
soon to be fathers current fathers
seasoned fathers that listen to this and go
man me too
so I
I fully believe in healing publicly
and so that someone who's suffering privately
can experience the same kind of healing
yeah I do too
that's exactly why we're embarking on this journey
together so
before we wrap up
give me one good principle that you adopt
and why you think that's important
one good principle that I adopt
that I think is very important
your child will do what you do
regardless of how good or bad it is
they see the best and the worst parts of you
social media you can lie
you can convince everybody else that
you got it all together but your kids see you
your kids see how you interact with women
your kids see how you interact with weight
weight staff they see how you do business
they hear phone calls that you make
they see how you respond to conflict
they see the food that you eat
the work you do or don't do in the gym
they see all of it
and that will directly influence the decisions
and choices that they make
so do right
that's a fantastic principle
and that's a great place for us to leave it off
Caleb Scott is the CEO of Better Dad Company
he is the host of the Better Dad Podcast
Caleb thank you again
so much for taking the time to be part of this
and
I look forward to catching up with you in the future
yes sir
thanks Sean
I'm your friend thanks