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Some Future Day evaluates technology at the intersection of culture & law.
Join Marc Beckman and his esteemed guests for insider knowledge surrounding how you can use new technologies to positively impact your life, career, and family. Marc Beckman is Senior Fellow of Emerging Technologies and an Adjunct Professor at NYU, CEO of DMA United, and a member of the New York State Bar Association’s Task Force on Cryptocurrency and Digital Assets.
Marc Beckham: [00:01:00] [00:02:00] Natalia, welcome to Some Future Day. It's such a pleasure to have you join me today. I can't wait to get into this conversation.
Natalia Nastaskin: Same, Mark. It's a pleasure to be here. You're such a visionary. Hopefully you don't stump me with the questions today.
Marc Beckham: Natalia, take a second and explain for my audience what your role is with Primary Wave. Um, you know, a little background about you and, and like what your day to day looks like, but what the overall arching goal is, um, specifically for a person in your position.
Natalia Nastaskin: So Primary Wave Music is a music publisher and a major part of our business is the acquisition and management of legendary and iconic catalogs, music catalogs. So what that means for me is my work really starts after a catalog is acquired. And when I use [00:03:00] the word catalog, I refer to Certain rights that we get from either the songwriter or from the estate.
Sometimes those rights include a participation in the publishing catalog. Sometimes it's the master rights catalog. Sometimes it's both. Sometimes it also includes name, image, likeness, biographical rights. So, each case is different, each acquisition is different, and, uh, carries its own, opportunities, but from where I sit, my work has to do with creating new IP around the acquired songs, or artist stories, and always with an eye towards bringing new audiences to the music.
So, how that is done, we can get into, but I sit across Scripted, unscripted, live stage podcast and emerging [00:04:00] platform content and IP for the catalogs that we acquire.
Marc Beckham: So Natalia, if you don't mind, let's, let's back up a little bit because for the, Person that's not in the music industry. There are a couple of concepts that I think we should break down a little bit, starting with the idea of like publishing rights versus master rights. Can you, can you just explain what that it's always complicated for even me?
Like what, what does that mean exactly? What are those two concepts?
Natalia Nastaskin: Okay, taking my lawyer hat off, um, for this because I'm going to try to make it, um, you know, sound easier than it probably really is. But The publishing is what we call the musical composition. The musical composition is the written word and the lyrics and the melody that's embodied in a sound recording that we hear on the radio.
So it's the, it's the song, but it's the lyrics, the melody. The makeup of that song that's publishing, simplifying it. There's more to it than that, but for purposes of our conversation, let's call it [00:05:00] that the master recording is the ultimate final product of the song, the producing work, the engineering work.
It's everything embodied in that sound recording that we hear on the radio. So what we hear on the radio, we in the music industry, refer to as the sound recording. What's embodied in that sound recording that's made up of the words, the lyrics, and the melody is what we refer to as the musical composition, i.e publishing.
Marc Beckham: So essentially like if I was gonna create an analogy, let's say in the automotive industry, I don't know why this is coming to mind, um, the publishing rights would be um, the, the car parts, right? The wheels, the engine, the steering wheel, and the master rights would be The final Ferrari that I'm actually sitting down in and driving off Is that fair to, is that, I know that's the weirdest analogy you've ever heard and I don't know where it came from, but
Natalia Nastaskin: Yeah, we, we can go with that.
Marc Beckham: all right. And then, [00:06:00] um, the third component that you said, as far as like name, likeness, et cetera, like where's that nuance?
Natalia Nastaskin: So when an artist becomes a public figure, there are certain rights attached to their name, their image, their likeness, their publicity right. those attributes. Attributes are revenue generating attributes for artists who have achieved a certain level of recognition, celebrity, etc. And so therefore, if the artist or the estate wishes to transfer those rights to a buyer like ourselves, there's a value that we attach to those rights.
And that would also include biographical rights, so life story rights, and things like that.
Marc Beckham: So if an estate owns the rights, well, let me ask you this first. Is it rare these days for an estate of a deceased artist to own all three, the rights [00:07:00] to all three tiers? That you're describing, like, for example,
Natalia Nastaskin: Because depending on the jurisdiction, um, and again, uh, my lawyer, my lawyering is a little bit rusty, but depending on the jurisdiction, upon death, those rights cease to exist,
Marc Beckham: regarding the artist's name and
Natalia Nastaskin: regarding the artist's name, image, likeness, the publicity, right?
Marc Beckham: All right. So like, let's, let's get a little, let's make it a little even more literal and, and, um, easier to comprehend. So when Michael Jackson sold his catalog, he sold it for about 600 million. I realized that that sale, that acquisition wasn't to primary wave, but you know, everybody, that was such a high profile thing.
I think it might've been the most lucrative sale to date. Am I, am I correct with that?
Natalia Nastaskin: Published?
Marc Beckham: Published. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough.
So primary wave, acquired the rights to Whitney Houston. So what does that look like? What [00:08:00] does, how does that concept work?
Natalia Nastaskin: Yeah. So in 2019, Primary Wave acquired 50 percent of the Whitney Houston estate. And I should pause here to say that this 50 percent model or 60 percent or 75 is really our preferred model. We prefer whenever possible not to acquire 100 percent of the interest in the estate, um, all inclusive. Master's, Publishing, Name, Image, Likeness, Publicity, Rights, etc.
We prefer for our artist or estate partners to hold on to a portion of their rights. Um, we want the estate, we want the artist to be involved with us in I hate to use the word exploitation of the rights, but I'm using it in the best possible context. You know, the promotion, the marketing, the, the, um, seeking of opportunities for the rights.
So in the case of Whitney Houston and that estate, that was a 50 percent acquisition. Across the [00:09:00] board. So, name image likeness, biographical rights, interest in the master recordings, any interest that Whitney had in the publishing. She's not a songwriter, so the publishing is, minimal. But, um, to the extent that the estate had any participation, that became part of the bucket of rights that we acquired.
Marc Beckham: So then that would give Primary Wave the ability to essentially unlock more value for her, corpus of creativity?
Natalia Nastaskin: For
Marc Beckham: when you come in?
Natalia Nastaskin: Yeah, I mean that was really the presentation to the family, to, to the estate management team. it was that we believe that the, the rights, the Whitney name, the Whitney voice, the Whitney impact on such a global scale was in danger of phasing out and we felt like we were the right partner. To kind of bring Whitney back in a very elegant, very [00:10:00] meaningful way, focusing primarily on the voice because it is the greatest voice in modern musical history.
So, and, and we've succeeded, I mean, you know, you can read some of the trade publications in terms of what we've done together with the Houstons to increase the value of the state through various brand partnerships, uh, biopic. Uh, Vegas residency for the, for, for Whitney's hologram. There are other, uh, brand partnership, uh, initiatives that are in, in the works now that I'm not yet able to talk about, but they'll be pretty incredible.
And we're always looking for the next thing, uh, for Whitney because The, the point of what we do is not only to superserve the core audience, but to always look through the lens of attracting new audiences and hopefully younger audiences to the music and to the artists that [00:11:00] enable the preservation and extension of legacy beyond our lifetimes.
Marc Beckham: it's an interesting concept. The family is effectively willing to give up 50 percent of the equity in name, likeness, the music, beyond, with the concept that you're actually going to preserve it. Primary Wave will preserve it and grow it. through these different types of transactions. So like, for example, you mentioned the movie.
that was, uh, during a difficult time period too, right? The movie came out during, am I right in it? Do
Natalia Nastaskin: Well, it started
Marc Beckham: the pandemic.
Natalia Nastaskin: during the pandemic,
Marc Beckham: Yeah.
Natalia Nastaskin: that was hard. Yeah,
Marc Beckham: yeah, but
Natalia Nastaskin: but that's the point. That's really the point. And that's the point in the case where we have a partnership with estates. That's the point where we have a partnership with songwriters. And in fact, even sometimes when there is a living songwriter.
But we didn't acquire name image likeness rights, but we have [00:12:00] opportunities that we either generate or that come to us that seem on brand and appropriate for that artist to look at. We will bring those opportunities to the artists and, and if they like it, then we pursue those things together. So.
We're not necessarily limited by only the rights that we acquire, but we are, um, always looking to enhance and extend the, the life of the music and, and the lifespan of the copyright.
Marc Beckham: so Natalia, what's like the emotion involved if the artist is living or if, um, it's the estate with regards to giving up, their work? What I'm curious about is like, is it difficult for the families or, or the artists themselves to give up ownership over their, their work, um, over their catalog? So I, you know, some, some other highlights beyond Michael Jackson's 600 million sale, Bruce Springsteen apparently sold his catalog for 500 million, Genesis and Phil Collins.
I was surprised by [00:13:00] this sold their catalog for 300 million, Bob Dylan for 300 million. There are also a lot of young artists that are still very relevant like Justin Bieber and Katy Perry sold, I think, parts of their catalog now for a ton of money. Um, is it difficult in your experience? Do you see difficulty, um, You know, an emotional connection or, um, a biz, like a torn business perspective from the estate or from the artist and, and giving up all of, uh, their work.
Natalia Nastaskin: I imagine so. I don't walk in their shoes, so I don't know exactly what a living artist or an estate goes through when they come to terms with the fact that they either want to or need to sell a portion of their rights or a portion of their interests or all of their interests. It's not for everyone.
Right. So I can't sit here and say, everybody should be selling their catalog. It's not for everyone, but everyone's situation is unique and everyone has different [00:14:00] considerations for why they sell, when they sell and to whom they sell. And I think that there probably is a lot of emotion that goes into it.
but also considerations like who will look after this music. When the artist, when the songwriter is no longer with us, and perhaps there's not a very qualified person or persons, that may be able to be the heirs or the decision makers with regards to a, an important catalog and they'd rather see professionals take care of that music.
that's just one consideration. I'm sure there are many others and each case is, we just said is different.
Marc Beckham: What happens when the, when the family shares, um, with primary wave, uh, this might be like too salacious, but like, you know, what happens when the family shares with primary wave with a, you know, 50, split, but they don't necessarily align with you. With regards [00:15:00] to your new business development vision, like I, I understand, I think if I'm correct, that Primary Wave owns, um, part of Kurt Cobain's, um, catalog.
Like,
Natalia Nastaskin: Primary Wave did. Yeah.
Marc Beckham: I
Natalia Nastaskin: That was one of the first deals that Larry and the Primary Wave team did. Um, and then that, uh, this predates me, but for one reason or another, that was sold at some point. So I don't, I don't know what the circumstances were. but I can say that whatever we do with regards to IP, creative IP, which is documentaries, scripted projects, stage podcasts, and, you know, things like AI, we want to make sure that it has as much credibility as possible.
not only to the family and to the estate, but also to the audience, right? So [00:16:00] everything that we do is with the approval of and the blessing of our partners. because I can't sit here and pretend that I know exactly what a James Brown AI model should look like or behave like, but he has living heirs.
that can help figure that out and decide whether it's the right thing for us to pursue. So we, we love to partner. We love the credibility aspect of everything that we do.
Marc Beckham: Is James Brown one of your properties?
Natalia Nastaskin: Yes. And very, uh, important, very, very, very important estate that we work with. Yeah.
Marc Beckham: Are you working towards bringing, um, artificial intelligence into that James Brown property now?
Natalia Nastaskin: Well, you know, we speak with, with Mr. Brown's family, uh, pretty often in terms of some of the initiatives that they independently are working on, um, which are really compelling and really exciting and, um, and they've brought up AI to us before. [00:17:00] obviously we have to tread very carefully because It is the godfather of soul and such an important figure in American musical history and frankly social justice history as well.
Just the major part of American historical fabric and that is not, uh, where we want to have our misstep. So we, we proceed very carefully. We analyze potential. partners, we involve the family. And so, whatever we do, we're going to do in tandem with them.
Marc Beckham: you know, without giving away too much detail, if you were going to bring James Brown's life back to, um, uh, Let's say it's back into the zeitgeist through the use of artificial intelligence that could take on a lot of different forms. It's, you know, people start to think like, oh, it's going to be James Brown and in his likeness thinking and speaking and a metahuman and acting, but it's not necessarily just that.
So how would [00:18:00] you see an artist like James Brown, who's obviously deceased, um, leveraging artificial intelligence? to, um, preserve his integrity and his importance in the music field, but at the same time to unlock more value and, and to keep his, um, voice and his brand, um, alive effectively.
Natalia Nastaskin: Well, um, great question because I spend many hours a day thinking about this and speaking with prospective partners and trying to figure out what that may look like. So of course, would I love to have a James Brown version of an ABBA voyage? 100%. Is that doable with today's technology and the archive that we have accessible to us?
Probably not yet. Um, but ultimately, that is something that I'd love to explore because unfortunately, none of us living today From here on forward, we'll ever be able to see a [00:19:00] live James Brown concert, right? So what is the next best thing is to creating a simulated version of that. But it really has to be perfect.
It has to be immaculate and it has to be authentic and credible. And so we'll wait until the technology is right. because it has to be right to rise to the level of somebody like Mr. Brown.
Marc Beckham: So what's the music industry using today as it relates to AI for monetization and brand building purposes, just generally speaking?
Natalia Nastaskin: Well, I can tell you what we're exploring, I mean, I don't know what the music industry as a whole is thinking, um, you know, because I'm sure some of the majors have very specific agendas there that we're not yet even uh you know where that haven't been disclosed to us yet but i can tell you that for us as custodians of some of the most important music in the history of the world we are [00:20:00] always looking at ways to Meet the audience where they are, right?
So, how do we get a 13 year old interested in hearing Whitney Houston music or Ray Charles music or, Steve Cropper music, you know, just like any one of our catalogs where unfortunately the artist is not with us and not super visible. So, We need to meet those audiences where they are. So when I look at the press surrounding somebody like a ghostwriter, right, when Ghostwriter came out with those fake Drake and fake Weekend recordings, I think to myself, how do I figure out a collaboration?
between one of our estates and somebody like a Ghostwriter who's a forward thinking, you know, kind of futurist when it comes to creating music. And is there a way to create a collaboration with Ghostwriter and [00:21:00] Bing Crosby? You know, that's something that is very much on our minds. And again, we want to tread carefully and we want to make sure that we dot our I's and cross our T's and that the estates that we work with are comfortable with this, but we are very much exploring the space and identifying the right, the right partners to. Make sure that young people are discovering this music the way we discovered it when our parents were listening to it.
Marc Beckham: Can you tell the audience a little bit about what Ghostwriter is and, um, what Ghostwriter did exactly with Drake, please?
Natalia Nastaskin: Well, what Ghostwriter is, is to the best of my knowledge, is a recording artist, is a presumably a songwriter, um, because the compositions that he put out are presumably his original, uh, uh, creations, but he. went into the studio, he or [00:22:00] she, or they, I don't know, I've not met this artist, um, went into the studio and created, through the use of technology, AI technology, presumably, um, the voice of Drake, and almost impeccably so,
created the voice through training of AI models on, I'm assuming, Recordings that were already in the marketplace, to have the AI model sound exactly like Drake and service DSPs with those recordings, which were quickly taken down because major, there's a major label that owns the rights to all recordings by Drake.
And so this wasn't an authentic Drake recording. So it, and it wasn't put onto the digital service providers by the rights holder. So they. [00:23:00] Um, so it created a lot of media flurry around what is possible, uh, you know, with, with not very involved technology. And so as a follower of the industry, I look at something like that and I immediately think about, is this an opportunity for some of our states?
I
Marc Beckham: of, it's, yeah, it's pretty interesting. It also, um, looks I think to a certain extent at a North star where a new type of collaboration could be created a new form of monetization in the music industry between artists and fans. Um, in some ways, It's interesting if you compare it to like what Nike is doing with dot swoosh, where they're putting their, you know, highly respected, highly protected intellectual property, the Nike swoosh into a creator community with dot swoosh and allowing for people to design, create, and [00:24:00] monetize.
Um, in this instance that I'm getting into, we're seeing this already a little bit where Grimes and The Weeknd are putting their They're a voice into effectively AI and the public forum and people are monetizing it. Are you, are you familiar Natalia with those two instances with regards to the weekend and, and,
Natalia Nastaskin: love what Grimes and CreateSafe are doing. I just, I think they're trailblazing. I love how they've set up a subscription model for users and creatives to work with Grimes voice. I love how they enable distribution through Grimes platform at what I believe is a very fair 50 50 split. Um, It's, it's just genius.
I, I really, I, I know that team and I've been talking with that team and I just, I love what they're doing. I think they're really onto something that will be part of the future of the music industry.
Marc Beckham: So what's the process then? Like you and I could just [00:25:00] go in and draft, write a song, maybe even use AI to come up with the lyrics for the song and then leverage the platform to have the song performed in Grimes's voice
Natalia Nastaskin: That, that's an option. Yeah,
Marc Beckham: and then, and then distributed off of Grimes.
Natalia Nastaskin: that's right. Sir, have a service to DSPs and it's there, thereby monetizable.
Marc Beckham: So do you think like, it's kind of interesting because there are so many people, then all of a sudden you have, you know, the dreamer, um, in, you know, not necessarily New York and LA, it could be like the 15 year old dreamer that would never have the ability to do something like this. Could be sitting in their small apartment in, you know, some point in the Middle East or in Europe or in Africa, maybe even the United States.
And all of a sudden they could create a hit song. In Grimes voice, right?
Natalia Nastaskin: Yeah, and it's happened. I mean, there were a couple of electronic [00:26:00] artists that charted with their creations. Which were like collabs with, with the Grimes voice.
Marc Beckham: How high up the charts did they go? I didn't realize that.
Natalia Nastaskin: I don't remember exactly, but it's, you know, it's, it's Google able.
Marc Beckham: So then Natalia, so then if you take that concept, like an artist like Grimes, um, you know, obviously she's not driving as much revenue as perhaps like a Katy Perry or a Taylor Swift, a Beyonce, or even a Justin Bieber, but she's pretty popular and she's very talented for sure. Do you think that, um, this type of a concept could create Um, more revenue for her than the music that she's putting out on her own.
Natalia Nastaskin: Absolutely. Absolutely. Because, you know, if the subscription model that they've created for CreateSafe, Elf Tech, is successful, um, then, you know, users all around the world are paying a monthly subscription fee to go in and tinker with the available [00:27:00] voices, the sounds. The snippets of music that the technology provides them with, right?
So if, you know, when you do the numbers, it probably generates potentially in success, it could generate a lot more for the artists than royalties from a record deal.
Marc Beckham: It creates like this exponential growth, right? It like really could scale out
Natalia Nastaskin: I think so, too. I think so, too. Yeah, it's sort of like, you know, the artists that do license deals for merch and fashion and perfume and, you know, things like that, um, oftentimes you'll read that those things bring them a lot more revenue than royalties from their recording distributions, so.
Marc Beckham: but, but I know like someone like you, like you're, um, you know, you're in an interesting point because you're preserving the integrity of some of. To your point, some of the most important [00:28:00] music ever to reach our planet, ever. People like Ray Charles and James Brown, just incredible, incredible works. Um, so you take calculated risks, right?
Like you're thinking in terms of, we need to preserve the integrity of Ray Charles for the estate, for him, for, you know, for the industry. Um, what could be the downside to someone like Grimes, um, by putting. You know, her, her, uh, voice into, uh, the public realm like this, is, is there a risk attached to it?
Natalia Nastaskin: I think for Grimes specifically, I, I don't really see what the downside is because she's so technologically futuristic and she's so associated with just forward thinking and being one step ahead of everybody else when it comes to technological advancements. So, and she even said in interviews when this technology first came out, you know, there, there could be [00:29:00] tens of thousands and millions of grimes voice out there, which she thought was super cool.
And I agree with her. Um, but, but that's not for everyone, you know, that's not for everyone. Um, and not every estate is going to want to, uh, jump on this bandwagon. And I respect that.
Marc Beckham: like how far could you take it? Like, I, I remember, um, I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong, I think about six months ago or so, the Beatles, um, put out, uh, a new song with artificial intelligence, uh, You know, to kind of move it along a little bit, um, but what would Yoko Ono and John Lennon's estate do if they, you know, put the, put his voice into a platform similar to what we're discussing with Grimes?
Do you think the risk is, you know, is, is much higher for, um, an estate like John Lennon's?
Natalia Nastaskin: I think it would be crazy to do it without the estate. along for the ride, [00:30:00] meaning the estate would have to be across the creative and the sound and the end result along the way. Like, I, I can't see doing anything like that without the estate's blessing. That would just be, that would just be bad, wrong.
And
Marc Beckham: Of course, but if the estate, if the estate participated, would they, do you feel like they could have enough creative control to preserve the integrity of, of John Lennon and, and then, you know, create this exponential monetization of, you know, arguably the, one of the most important rock and roll people in history?
Natalia Nastaskin: think so, you know, look, I think when we enter into some of these technology partnerships, we exercise as much control as we can. But as you know with technology, what we know today is not necessarily what it'll be tomorrow, right? So could there be bad actors that do terrible things with someone's voice that was meant [00:31:00] to be created for A positive purpose.
Could bad actors seize that voice and do bad things with it? Of course they can. Um, so that's always a risk that I think we take when we embrace new technologies and try new things. but, you know, I think to not tap into what the future may be. is um, is not, is not serving the estate or the songwriter to the best of our ability.
We at least have to present them with the opportunity.
Marc Beckham: So let's shift gears off of AI for a second and talk about, an area that I think is, going to flourish, um, in an increasingly exciting way, filmmaking and the music world. Um, what are you seeing in the film space that's exciting to you as well as your, your stable of, um, artists?
Natalia Nastaskin: Well, I think in both scripted and [00:32:00] unscripted film, there's been a proliferation of music documentaries, music biopics, and music catalog inspired Non biographical narratives. So I think the world is sort of our oyster with regards to the film world, because music, let's talk about non biographical narratives for a second.
So when you think about a film like Mamma Mia, for example, right, that was entirely premised on the ABBA catalog, but was not biographical at all. It had nothing to do with the ABBA story. Um, to me. Pardon?
Marc Beckham: I'd say it was so, it was such a fun,
Natalia Nastaskin: So fun.
Marc Beckham: creation. Yeah, it was so great.
Natalia Nastaskin: So, so for me, that's such an important kind of sweet spot. That's such an important part of our strategy in terms of getting the catalogs out there.
Because I do believe that, that. catalogs from Air Supply and Boston and, and Def [00:33:00] Leppard. of course, they can power biopics, but I think they're so incredibly rich in terms of powering a non biographical story. And then. You can reuse the music in different contexts with different stories, you know, as well as remixing music that may have originally been put out as like, you know, a soft rock single.
Can we now work with some of our artist partners and recreate, reimagine that music to sound a little bit more Um, you know, ethereal, a little bit more different than originally recorded and have it power a narrative that, you know, may be a thriller or suspense or, or, or mystery narrative. So I think when you take music catalog and apply it to the, to just screenplays, to scripts, et cetera.[00:34:00]
There's so much opportunity. There's just so much opportunity, not only with one catalog powering narrative, but also with a medley of great songs powering narrative.
Marc Beckham: So that's like very traditional. It certainly appeals to like my generation and older. Do you think that same concept though, can apply nicely for Gen Z, Gen Alpha in the gaming sector?
Natalia Nastaskin: Well, I thought you were going in the film and TV sector, but I'll address both. So gaming, 100%. 100%. And we've seen it, right? I mean, one of the things that gamers, when, when they're live streaming, do is they have background music on as part of their stream, right? That's just oftentimes part of their vibe, part of their profile.
but when you, when you take to film and television. when you think about like, quote unquote, young people's [00:35:00] series or young people's product like Stranger Things, right? I mean, those soundtracks are extraordinarily popular and we, what we call in the music industry, like the Stranger Things effect to get on that soundtrack for any season of Stranger Things, you see exponential growth in.
in the streaming of that particular song that was featured in the soundtrack. So, the same thing goes for shows like Beef, and shows, movies like Saltburn. I'm sure you're seeing media stories on, on that story, um, that music story. So, so yeah, I think it's about curation and meeting the audiences where they are.
Because, you know this Mark, like, when something has worked once, particularly in music, it chances are it'll work again, which is why we're seeing so much interpolation of legendary and iconic songs [00:36:00] by contemporary artists, right? So you take a Doja Cat, Paint the Town Red, which has the Bird Baccarat sample of Walk on By in there, you know, Dionne Warwick, I mean, how many weeks at number one did that song spend?
Many, many, many, many.
Marc Beckham: It's incredible. I mean, you, you, you, you mentioned the, um, stranger things phenomenon. Like my, my seven year old daughter Damaris is obsessed with Kate Bush specifically because of that television show. It's, it's wild. The reason I, I, I moved from, um, long form creative. Uh, films to gaming is because I truly believe that the next generation is about to see the delivery of, um, new content in a way that we haven't seen before vis a vis gaming.
So, like, when you start to consider technology like Unreal Engine, Um, in Fortnite, which is hyper realistic, it's photo realistic, we'll see, um, the next generation, Gen Z and Gen Alpha taking in films on Fortnite. It's no [00:37:00] longer going to be like, come together and let's shoot everyone, let's kill everyone, let's blow things up.
There's going to be talk shows and films and, and beyond. It's kind of like where YouTube was 10 years ago, in my opinion. But I still think our generation and older is connected. Like I enjoy sitting down in the theater, watching a movie on a screen, same thing in my house, watching it on a big screen. so when you get back into the biopic side of it, um, what are you seeing that's exciting, um, in, in traditional filmmaking, let's say in, in that format, uh, as it relates to artistry.
Natalia Nastaskin: well, I love to use the Baz Luhrmann Elvis biopic example as a, as a indication of like music discovery and streaming impact, right? So you have class A artist, Elvis. You have an incredibly imaginative director, Baz Luhrmann, right? So those two elements alone are going [00:38:00] to draw audiences to come to the theater.
But what was interesting with Elvis is that we saw multi generational audiences come, right? The grandmas and the moms came for Elvis, the daughters and the granddaughters came for Austin Butler. And what that did to the soundtrack was extraordinary because just from the one copyright that we had in the film, which is Arthur Crudup's That's Alright Mama, which was Elvis first really big hit.
so we have the publishing on that, and we tracked the song for 13 weeks leading up to the release of the film. And it had a great streaming audience, like it was a modest but good, about 100, Average listens a week, right? After the film came out, it, the growth was exponential. So we tracked it for 13 weeks after the film was released, and it was like a 400 percent uplift in the listenership for that song.
[00:39:00] And what we attributed to is like, yes, of course, Audiences that are familiar with the song saw it in the movie theater, listened to it, and were like, oh yeah, let's go home and stream that song. Yes. But it was the young people, the 15 year olds, the 16 year olds who came for Austin Butler, who discovered the song, who discovered the soundtrack and streamed it over and over and over again.
And that's what I mean about meeting audiences where they are. and figuring out how we apply a younger lens to our IP projects. That's like the, that particular film hit the zeitgeist
Marc Beckham: so it impacts the entire ecosystem, I would imagine then, right? Like, the film has a positive impact on the music, but then also probably extends, when it's applicable, into merchandise, maybe digital assets, any place else within the ecosystem will feel that lift.
Natalia Nastaskin: absolutely, because then the song is familiar and we can pitch it for brand partnerships. We can pitch it for additional syncs and things like [00:40:00] that because the success, when you can ride the wave of that level of success. Other opportunities are possible.
Marc Beckham: So, Natalia, when you talk about like going to where the fan base is, in particular with like the youth generation, um, something that I'm personally obsessed with is ticket sales, live concerts with Taylor Swift and Beyonce in particular, right? These are like super fans. They're, they're real, you know, they built the name Fanatics.
They, I think Taylor Swift eclipsed a billion dollars in, in ticket sales just to her live concerts. Not including the movie sales, uh, Beyonce over, um, I think it was 600 million. But how do you see, uh, these mega artists reaching the super fans in a way where they can leverage technology, um, in, in, um, more of a transactional, more than just that transactional moment of the live concert, like, do you see a stretching [00:41:00] perhaps of the experience for the super fan from before the, I buy a ticket.
I know I'm going, but something can happen before the concert, something happens maybe differently at the concert, and then the relationship extends post concert as well.
Natalia Nastaskin: Oh my God, I have so much to say on this. Um, okay.
Marc Beckham: Fire away. I know, it's a lot.
Natalia Nastaskin: it, it, it is, it's a lot. And you know, most of my professional life I spent on the touring side. The IP creation and IP development gig is pretty new. It's just about three years old. So, um, okay, super fans, and artists, and technology, yes to all. Um, you know, I mentioned this to you earlier, but you're speaking probably to one of the last standing music executives that's still bullish on NFTs, and the reason I bring that up is because.
I believe that as long as there are fans, [00:42:00] and there are fan clubs, NFTs, and proof of attendance, and anything that helps to build a community around an artist is going to persevere. And it's going to be part of any smart artist's initiative. And it all does involve technology. Um, I think proof of attendance.
There were certain token drops during like the whole NFT craze that were POAs, which did really, really well for artists. But again, because the space collapsed so quickly, I think we're seeing a lot less of them, but anytime you have the VIP experience, you know, when fans go and they buy a ticket to a concert, but they may also opt into a VIP package, whether that's a meet and greet.
or special content or a lifetime of, uh, you know, first, uh, in [00:43:00] line for ticket purchases. It's, it, it really all boils down to how creative the artists and their camps are, how much the fans can Take of technological advancements, because the older the artists, the less their fans are going to buy into the tech stuff, you know?
Like, my dad, who loves Paul Anka, is probably not going to buy a Paul Anka NFT, you know what I mean? So
Marc Beckham: But I heard Paul Anka recently launched a new podcast. Did you know that?
Natalia Nastaskin: did, he did. I will say this, Paul is an innovator. And Paul does go to meet his fans where they are. In fact, during the pandemic, Paul worked with his team to create a whole like social media strategy, which was extraordinary because he wanted to continue to superserve his fans when he couldn't be on the road.
Paul is, is certainly a unicorn, but even so, I [00:44:00] don't know that the technological advances that Somebody like, um, uh, Pharrell may embrace work similarly for Paul Anka's audience, or at least his core audience, right? So, we We don't want to scare them, right? We want to give them what's digestible, what's accessible, what's useful.
in fact, I remember when NFTs were first coming out and I was trying to explain to my dad what they, what they all were. And really neither he nor any of his friends could understand, like, Why you would have something in a wallet that only really you can see, right? The digital wallet. They like to hang things up on the wall, sort of like I have behind me here.
Like, tangibility was important to them. But I think for young fans, young audiences, I think artists can experiment. And I think fans, even if it's [00:45:00] A technological flop will forgive them pretty quickly and they'll move on to the next thing.
Marc Beckham: Yeah, I think the younger generation's perceived value of a digital asset, particularly in the music industry, is far greater than our generation and our parents generation. There's no doubt about it. When you talk about proof of attendance, it's kind of interesting, uh, when you get into POA, in particular as it relates to the artist's team's ability to be creative.
We find my agency in many cases, the teams that are super creative can embrace the technology and unlock tons of value, both commercially and from a marketing perspective. But sometimes they're a little stale. They're not as knowledgeable. They're not as curious about technology and they can't unlock that value for the artist.
So in your opinion, are you seeing, um, some examples of a proof of attendance token? That really just flourish that are so fantastic. And, you know, maybe that's what we'll, [00:46:00] we'll, we'll be looking at in years to come.
Natalia Nastaskin: You know, off the top of my head, I, I can't say with certainty that this is the one, but I will say that the, the band Avenged Sevenfold, you know, they were a pioneer in the NFT space and, and sort of that fan engagement space vis a vis technology. And they've continued on with their NFT drops and whether.
But whether it's tickets or VIP packages or proof of attendance, I think they, they happen to be one of the ones that get it and their fans get it. So I would say to your listeners, uh, you know, if they're interested in what that, campaign looks like, just look up Avenged Sevenfold's campaign and it's pretty, um, comprehensive.
Marc Beckham: So, you know, obviously I love merch. Everybody loves merch and, and, uh, there's like this whole movement towards digital merch right now. So from your perspective, it's interesting because, um. [00:47:00] How does it translate? If you want to bring some of the artists that you represent into the digital realm, maybe in the gaming space, which is so important, do you think that, um, digital merch is going to have a significant moment as it relates to the music industry?
Natalia Nastaskin: Yes, but not for everyone. I think if it fits with the particular artist's profile. It'll work. If it's credible and authentic, it'll work. You know, for us, would I love for there to be a Sun Records line of, uh, digital merch out there? Yes. But who's buying it, right? So for somebody like Myself, when I'm trying to figure out how to make things make sense in the Metaverse Web 3, uh, Web 2.
0, even still, to fans, [00:48:00] I would need to tie something like that to a bigger campaign, right? So let's say I was Fingers crossed successful in launching a Devo game in Roblox, for example, then for sure, right? That would be so fun.
Marc Beckham: Totally.
Natalia Nastaskin: but, but for sure there would be a merge component to that, probably digital and physical.
But it has to start with the big picture first for us, for us, for Legacy and for, you know, Legends and Icons. But I think other artists who are contemporary and meaningful today who are on the charts, you know, Doja, I would say she probably should tap into some of that, uh, if she hasn't already.
Marc Beckham: Yeah, I think Doja Cat could have a huge digital merchandise business, um, there's no doubt about it. But what's interesting with Devo in particular, I'm sorry to like show my age here, but if you take like that iconic Devo look from, uh, Whippet, right? Remember that [00:49:00] video and bring that into the digital realm, I think that look could come to life digitally and actually build brand awareness again, for the band amongst Gen Z and alpha, and then translate nicely.
into the physical realm. Exactly. Exactly. But nobody's going to wear that physically, what you're holding. So the physical collection of the merchandise needs to be a little bit more, uh, fashion forward, more relevant, right? Like maybe you could see someone like Jeremy Scott create a super cool collection using Devo and the physical realm.
But what you just held up, that's all over Fortnite and Roblox and everything else. That's amazing. And those kids will love the music. It's a catchy song. They'll know the band. And it does, to your point, help sustain the relevancy to the next generation of, you know, the iconic band Devo. You're exciting me.
Natalia Nastaskin: from your mouth to the decision makers ears. I haven't
Marc Beckham: For sure, for sure. Um, one last [00:50:00] question and then we'll wrap it up. So, are you excited about Apple's Vision Pro? Do you think spatial computing will, um, also help ramp up your success at Primary Wave as it relates to identifying new opportunities in the tech space for the properties that you represent?
Natalia Nastaskin: tried the Vision Pro yet myself, uh, but what I've heard so far about it is that, you know, yes, it eventually will be another platform where we can create initiatives, meaningful IP that incorporates our music. I'm not sure that it's there yet, but I do believe that that will be another outlet for us.
Marc Beckham: Yeah, I think so too. I think you'll see super fans at concerts using, uh, spatial computing to access digital portals to, you know, get access perhaps to limited edition merchandise, better seats, different sound quality, access to new songs. I think The, um, blending of new technology and, and, uh, a [00:51:00] superfan vertical is really, really going to be transformative in nature.
It's going to be very exciting for, for you. I told you, I think you have like the best job in the music industry. I'm sorry to put that out there, Natalia, but you really do. And it allows for someone like you to both be creative and impactful commercially, huh?
Natalia Nastaskin: Yeah, 100%. I always say I feel like a kid in a candy store, but don't tell anyone.
Marc Beckham: It's incredible. Look, before I let you go, we have a tradition. You might be aware of it if you listen to the shows. We, all of my guests and the show, um, by, uh, incorporating the title, I start the title of the show is Some Future Day. And I created that title because it's a reference to one of my favorite authors, James Joyce.
And what we do is we basically, I start the sentence and then allow them for my guests to finish the sentence in a, in a forward looking way. So are you game?
Natalia Nastaskin: Sure. By
Marc Beckham: Alright, so in some future day, technology will change the way that music is [00:52:00] experienced by
Natalia Nastaskin: young audiences as it pertains to legendary and iconic catalogs particularly.
Marc Beckham: Beautiful. Good, good thinking right on, like right at the spur of the moment. I love it. Natalia, do you have anything else that you'd like to close with? Anything, um, that we missed that is important to you?
Natalia Nastaskin: think we've covered everything. I just want to thank you for creating this platform and this, this conversation, because I think it's really timely. And, uh, I am going to be following your shows from here on in all the time.
Marc Beckham: I appreciate the support. It's awesome having you. It's a big deal for me. I really appreciate it. So thanks for joining and, um, have a lovely day.
Natalia Nastaskin: It's been a pleasure. Likewise.
[00:53:00]