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95% Content is a show for B2B content teams who want to build trust with the 95% of buyers who are out-of-market today, but will be ready to buy in the future.
You can call it many different things: content marketing, demand creation, brand marketing, dark social, or zero-click content.
No matter what you call it, the goal is the same.
You want to reach future buyers on the social and content platforms they hang out on every single day, and in a way that compels them to want to work with you when they’re ready.
We’re going to cover how B2B companies can win with things like: organic social, short-form video, podcasting, YouTube, newsletters, webinars, and communities.
Because the best way to win today is to already be on your buyers short-list the day they decide they need a solution.
On this show hosted by Erik Jacobson, we’re going to explore how B2B content teams can do exactly that.
Erik [0:00:00]: A word to the wise keep your eyes on the ninety five sick.
Erik [0:00:03]: I'm Erik Jacobson.
Erik [0:00:05]: Welcome to 95% content.
Erik [0:00:08]: A show for B2B content teams who want to build trust with the ninety five percent of buyers who are out of market today, but we'll be ready to buy in the future.
Erik [0:00:16]: Naomi.
Erik [0:00:21]: Thank you for joining me on today's episode for those who don't know, you are the Content Lead at Doist.
Erik [0:00:28]: And Doist essentially has in two products, two business lines, which is to and twist.
Erik [0:00:35]: And to is a task management platform that is used very popular and used by millions and millions and millions of people, and has been around for a very long time.
Erik [0:00:47]: You could correct me on the exact years, but it's definitely more
Naomi [0:00:51]: than ten.
Erik [0:00:52]: Yeah.
Erik [0:00:52]: Coming up on fifteen years.
Naomi [0:00:53]: Yeah.
Erik [0:00:54]: At this point.
Erik [0:00:54]: And Twist is an async communications platform, similar to what I'm sure a lot of people are familiar with, that category in general between Slack and some of the other players in there.
Erik [0:01:07]: You all have done content.
Erik [0:01:09]: I think content has been at the heart of the company, pretty much since the origin...
Erik [0:01:15]: Of it.
Erik [0:01:15]: You've had a highly transparent culture of sharing what you're doing, having strong points of use, many would call that, you know, spiky point of view.
Erik [0:01:26]: Yeah.
Erik [0:01:26]: And taking a stand for things, especially when it comes to remote work and remote culture that's been a major pillar for you all.
Erik [0:01:35]: You've been fully distributed I believe ever since the origin...
Erik [0:01:39]: Of the company far far far before Covid, you know, forcing never kind of take that way before it was popular.
Erik [0:01:46]: And so Yeah.
Erik [0:01:48]: I've been a fan of what you all are...
Erik [0:01:50]: Have been doing for a very long time, and You are pulling a lot of really cool content levers from my vantage point that I'd love to kinda get into today.
Erik [0:01:59]: But where I typically like to start is just a little bit of context around how you all think about from a marketing perspective.
Erik [0:02:06]: This difference in Tam or market.
Erik [0:02:12]: So we've got the five percent roughly approximately, obviously, it can be slightly different of the market that is in market for a solution like to do or twist at any given a moment.
Erik [0:02:25]: They're going to Google.
Erik [0:02:26]: They're searching in those high intent keywords because they're looking for something.
Erik [0:02:30]: They're in pain they're in need.
Erik [0:02:31]: And then you've got the ninety five percent of market, which represents obviously the far majority of what of the Tam that may someday be in need of it and likely will at some point.
Erik [0:02:43]: But when exactly that is and how far from today it is?
Erik [0:02:46]: It's unclear.
Erik [0:02:47]: So I'm curious how you all think about your prioritization of marketing towards those two different segments.
Erik [0:02:54]: Maybe just as the first place and then we can get into some of the content strategies.
Erik [0:02:58]: Many companies don't actually look at that ninety five percent audience as an important audience to target.
Erik [0:03:08]: Yeah.
Erik [0:03:09]: Because they're so focused on we need conversions today.
Naomi [0:03:16]: Yeah.
Erik [0:03:16]: From people in market today.
Erik [0:03:19]: So everybody's fighting over.
Erik [0:03:21]: We don't have to go into the laundry list of reasons of why that structure is in place, but a lot of it comes down to measurement, an attribution, and it's extremely easy to measure and attribute.
Erik [0:03:33]: A click into a demo or a P sign up, and it's extremely difficult to measure content that's not designed to get a click, but designed to build trust.
Naomi [0:03:46]: Mh.
Erik [0:03:47]: So that's six months from now when they are in market, they just think, oh, I'm looking for a tool, a task management tool.
Erik [0:03:54]: I really like to do this.
Erik [0:03:55]: I'm gonna check them out.
Erik [0:03:57]: Like, they just think that.
Erik [0:03:58]: Yeah.
Erik [0:03:59]: And then they just go to to do Url or typed to do us in Google, and that's extremely difficult to track.
Erik [0:04:04]: So many companies are sort of disregard this ninety five percent audience.
Erik [0:04:10]: And I believe from my vantage point, to do has leaned into that audience.
Naomi [0:04:18]: Mh.
Erik [0:04:18]: And Do has leaned into that audience in a major way.
Erik [0:04:20]: Is that accurate just in terms of, like, you're all focused on it?
Naomi [0:04:26]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:04:26]: Even before my time, at.
Naomi [0:04:28]: I would say that I'm very, very lucky because I came to a company where the leadership team have been there since the very beginning.
Naomi [0:04:36]: So B who was our CMO was now our CRO.
Naomi [0:04:39]: She sort of started alongside a em mirror, the finder.
Naomi [0:04:43]: She come on very, very early on.
Naomi [0:04:45]: So one of the things that really was in our favor is that B worked in a P background before, and so she really understood the importance of brand, and she really understood the importance of building trust with your audience.
Naomi [0:04:58]: And she leaned heavily into that from the beginning, and the entire content strategy was based around that then, the That was fourteen years ago, and it still be assuring that today.
Naomi [0:05:09]: We still know that we've built this really beautiful brand over time than people have learned to trust us, and we take a lot of care with that brand.
Naomi [0:05:18]: So we really do a lot of things to try and make sure that we don't jeopardize that in any way.
Erik [0:05:23]: Yes.
Erik [0:05:23]: It's a really interesting market you're in into with this.
Naomi [0:05:29]: It's ridiculous.
Naomi [0:05:29]: To be honest it's huge.
Naomi [0:05:32]: The total addressable market is enormous.
Erik [0:05:35]: Yes.
Erik [0:05:35]: And extremely competitive.
Erik [0:05:37]: Yeah.
Erik [0:05:38]: Extremely competitive.
Erik [0:05:40]: Europe against major VC backed competitors.
Erik [0:05:44]: Mh.
Erik [0:05:45]: That have employee sizes that are ten to twenty to thirty x, the size of do.
Erik [0:05:51]: Yeah.
Erik [0:05:52]: Do has been bootstrap as far as I'm aware, ever since
Naomi [0:05:57]: Yes.
Erik [0:05:57]: So the founding of the company still today.
Erik [0:05:59]: Yeah.
Erik [0:05:59]: And so it seems to me like you have looked at this brand approach and building affinity with the audience approach through content.
Erik [0:06:09]: Mh.
Erik [0:06:10]: And not sort of trying to get them into a conversion funnel today.
Erik [0:06:15]: Yeah.
Erik [0:06:15]: Immediately, as actually an advantage in that market.
Naomi [0:06:21]: Oh, yeah.
Naomi [0:06:21]: It's a huge advantage.
Naomi [0:06:22]: I mean, we've always considered our brand to be our moat.
Naomi [0:06:24]: And then in my own personal opinion, I feel like content builds the brand.
Naomi [0:06:28]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:06:29]: And that's what people really place all of their trust in, You know, if you'd like, spend all of that time building that brand, then they deserve for us to deliver content that is of good quality and something that actually means something to them.
Naomi [0:06:43]: So, yeah, from the beginning, at du, content has been focused on the ninety five percent, not really that interested and you know, someone getting to the end of their t and being like, I need a task manager and we're like, we're here.
Naomi [0:06:55]: We're sort of a lot more interested in, like, do you have a point at any point?
Naomi [0:07:01]: You know, a lot of the times overwhelm is what it...
Naomi [0:07:04]: We're trying to solve for?
Naomi [0:07:05]: And overwhelm a slow thing.
Naomi [0:07:07]: It creeps up.
Naomi [0:07:08]: It's not something that just, you know, one day you wake up your overwhelmed and you need a solution.
Naomi [0:07:11]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:07:12]: It's something that happens over time.
Naomi [0:07:13]: So people will look for lots of different things online before they actually search for task management.
Naomi [0:07:19]: And so it may be something like, oh, how do I stop procrastinating?
Naomi [0:07:23]: Or, whenever it comes to, like, a team example, it would be, how do I kick off a project or how do I align my team on this project?
Naomi [0:07:32]: So one of the things we've always worked on is how can we be there for them at a moment of need.
Naomi [0:07:38]: Mh.
Naomi [0:07:38]: It doesn't necessarily equate them being ready to sign up.
Naomi [0:07:41]: Right.
Naomi [0:07:41]: But it gives them that value upfront so that when comes the time that they're looking for a solution they may consider us.
Erik [0:07:48]: Yes.
Erik [0:07:48]: You help them with a problem, not ask them for a sale at that moment.
Naomi [0:07:55]: Oh, hundred percent.
Naomi [0:07:56]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:07:56]: In fact, I didn't think we'd know hard to asking anybody for seal.
Naomi [0:07:59]: Like, it's just not in our culture at all.
Naomi [0:08:02]: The the culture of the company is very much.
Naomi [0:08:04]: Build an awesome product.
Erik [0:08:07]: Yes.
Naomi [0:08:07]: And then create content that builds trust and earns respect, and then people will equate the two.
Naomi [0:08:14]: You know, they know the quality they're arranged.
Naomi [0:08:16]: So...
Naomi [0:08:17]: Yes.
Naomi [0:08:17]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:08:17]: And.
Erik [0:08:19]: And it's worked.
Erik [0:08:19]: I mean, you all have tens of millions of of users at To do.
Naomi [0:08:25]: Fifty milk, We've just passed fifty million users.
Erik [0:08:27]: Fifty million users.
Erik [0:08:28]: Yes.
Erik [0:08:29]: Yeah.
Erik [0:08:29]: And the engine for that in a large, large, large part has been the content strategy.
Erik [0:08:36]: Yeah.
Erik [0:08:36]: And so just from a high level, just quick overview of, like, what are the content channels or pillars that you have?
Erik [0:08:46]: I know there's quite a few.
Erik [0:08:48]: So whichever ones you think are, like, most important, I know Youtube's has been a really great channel for you all as of late that you.
Erik [0:08:55]: You've had a lot of success with your newsletter revamp, recently.
Erik [0:08:59]: Yeah.
Erik [0:09:00]: And your newsletter.
Naomi [0:09:02]: I'm almost quite controversial surprisingly.
Erik [0:09:04]: I'm excited to go into that.
Erik [0:09:05]: Yes.
Erik [0:09:06]: And you've got a community aspect to things.
Erik [0:09:09]: You've got...
Erik [0:09:10]: Obviously, all the social channels and short form.
Erik [0:09:13]: You've got website content, quizzes and things like that.
Erik [0:09:17]: So, yeah, could you just give an overview?
Erik [0:09:19]: This what that world looks like.
Erik [0:09:21]: Oh, wow.
Erik [0:09:21]: In general.
Naomi [0:09:23]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:09:23]: There's quite a lot to it because it's some ama made over time, and I have to say that I can't credit for some of this stuff, like, a Came before my time, I've been at the company for coming up on four years now.
Naomi [0:09:35]: And before me, today it was very well known for its blog.
Naomi [0:09:39]: The written content on there was superb.
Naomi [0:09:43]: And my job is to maintain it and to, like, add to that, but really the foundations of it were laid before I came along.
Naomi [0:09:50]: So we have the blog, which is now become what we call the inspiration hub, which is just full of really valuable content around everything from collaboration, type management.
Naomi [0:10:00]: We have variety of different pillars on there.
Naomi [0:10:02]: And then we have...
Naomi [0:10:04]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:10:05]: There's so many different streams.
Naomi [0:10:06]: So I think about it we've got reddit.
Naomi [0:10:07]: We were on there long before everybody started jumping up and down by Ai and the needs to be on Reddit.
Naomi [0:10:13]: It's been one of the bigger advantages of having a developer finder is that Em amir, our our CEO and finder was on that from the beginning.
Naomi [0:10:22]: And so We actually have quite a good community on there.
Naomi [0:10:25]: We've got our Youtube channel.
Naomi [0:10:27]: We've got the newsletter like you mentioned.
Naomi [0:10:29]: And then the quiz that you were referring to is our productivity methods quiz, so you can go on.
Naomi [0:10:35]: Take a quiz.
Naomi [0:10:36]: It tells you which productivity method is more suited to you.
Naomi [0:10:38]: And then that's not gated content.
Naomi [0:10:41]: I think that's something that we do quite differently is that we ask for people to volunteer their email at the end of that.
Naomi [0:10:46]: So they can find out what their result is immediately, and then we will ask them if you want more, you can sign up here.
Naomi [0:10:54]: And then that takes them on a sign up to the newsletter.
Naomi [0:10:56]: So, yeah.
Naomi [0:10:58]: And the newsletter revamped too, so we've had that newsletter for a very long time.
Naomi [0:11:03]: But when I came on board, one of my first initiatives was I just One of the things we're working at do is is that there's not a lot of top dying directions, so it's wonderful whenever you're working in content because you get to kinda think, oh, I think that this could be a, you know, really positive channel for us.
Naomi [0:11:20]: I think there's something in this, can we experiment and see if there's any signal and then go from there.
Erik [0:11:25]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:11:26]: The newsletter was one of those.
Naomi [0:11:27]: So I took it on board in January, what year we I were gonna in twenty twenty six.
Naomi [0:11:32]: It would have been twenty twenty three.
Naomi [0:11:33]: And decided that very strategically, we were just going to release one a month.
Naomi [0:11:38]: Weren't gonna bombard people.
Naomi [0:11:40]: We were gonna respect people's time being a productivity company at all.
Naomi [0:11:44]: You know, we can't be sent ideally in meals, that would just be, yeah, ridiculous.
Naomi [0:11:48]: So went with one email a month.
Naomi [0:11:50]: It's on the first day of every month, and that was also very strategic because I wanted it be an anchor into people's routines and monthly habits.
Naomi [0:12:00]: I wanted them to start thinking over time.
Naomi [0:12:03]: First day of the month, I know the do news that is gonna come out.
Naomi [0:12:06]: And that's worked that's something a lot of feedback that we get a lot as people saying, oh, I really look forward to the first day of month.
Naomi [0:12:12]: Because I know I'm gonna get this newsletter.
Naomi [0:12:14]: And in the newsletter, we talk a lot about.
Naomi [0:12:16]: Well, it's it's actually personally from me.
Naomi [0:12:18]: Mh.
Naomi [0:12:19]: So I write the newsletter from Naomi and the today's team.
Naomi [0:12:22]: The idea, which at the time was a little, not controversial, but I think there's was a few people go on, not sure this is gonna work was me writing a personal note to our readers to just talk about things that we're struggling with in general as me personally or as a team, productivity wise and so we cover everything from procrastination and time management and what happens whenever your kids don't sleep the night before, and you've got work to do the next day and, like, there's a a lot of different topics have been covered over those three years, but that personal content from me to the reader has actually proven to be quite successful because I think it gives a voice and a fe that's associated with the company.
Naomi [0:13:04]: Kind of a employee advocacy before it became employee advocacy.
Naomi [0:13:08]: Right?
Erik [0:13:09]: Yes.
Naomi [0:13:10]: So that has been going for three years, and we took the original the original subscriber count I think was seventy four thousand and we're not at a hundred and eighty thousand.
Erik [0:13:20]: Amazing.
Naomi [0:13:21]: So we've, like, more than doubled it in that time.
Naomi [0:13:23]: So, yeah, it's been it's being fun.
Erik [0:13:26]: Amazing.
Erik [0:13:26]: Yeah.
Erik [0:13:27]: And again, that that really leans into something that I think some of the Vc funded players in the space very likely won't don't have the ability to do and or won't ever do.
Naomi [0:13:44]: Mh.
Erik [0:13:45]: And so it's just such an advantage for you all.
Erik [0:13:47]: To almost have this content, which I think, especially now and like, just the Ai content world is, like, yeah.
Erik [0:13:56]: The difference between telling someone, here's how to do something versus, like, here's how I did it.
Erik [0:14:03]: That difference now I feel like is really important.
Erik [0:14:06]: Yeah.
Erik [0:14:06]: Because you can go to all the Ai tools and ask them how to do something.
Erik [0:14:12]: But what that tool can never give is how to Naomi me at Doist.
Erik [0:14:17]: Do something.
Erik [0:14:19]: Yeah.
Erik [0:14:19]: Or what was what was your personal experience or your personal opinions about something like that.
Erik [0:14:26]: So I think that's a really strong angle to take with content now?
Naomi [0:14:31]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:14:31]: It's a risky one though, too.
Naomi [0:14:32]: Right?
Naomi [0:14:32]: Like, people will think oh, about then what happens if this one person leaves?
Erik [0:14:36]: Yes.
Naomi [0:14:37]: But we've already experienced that because prior to me, we had a content marketer called Becky Kim, and then She also worked with another content marketer Called, and they, at the time had their own personal brands associated with to Doist?
Naomi [0:14:49]: Yes.
Naomi [0:14:49]: And, you know, after a while they moved on and they did something else, and the brand didn't suffer.
Naomi [0:14:54]: And, we just sort of pivoted and someone else took on that mantle.
Naomi [0:14:58]: So I feel like there can be a little bit of concern about maybe weighing too much on a single person.
Naomi [0:15:05]: Yes.
Naomi [0:15:06]: You could also just have, like, a suite of people.
Naomi [0:15:08]: So that's what we've done with Youtube.
Erik [0:15:10]: Mh.
Naomi [0:15:11]: Is when we revived that channel, it was very stagnant for a very long time and a couple years ago, we decided to just take a little bit of a bet on video marketing.
Naomi [0:15:24]: Mh.
Naomi [0:15:24]: And it wasn't supposed to be me.
Naomi [0:15:26]: At least not in my head, it wasn't supposed to be me, but I was kinda looking around the table being a bit.
Naomi [0:15:32]: Like we should do video.
Naomi [0:15:32]: We should do video, and everybody's going, yes.
Naomi [0:15:34]: We should do video and then I was like, well, I guess it's me that has to do the video because we're a very small team.
Naomi [0:15:41]: There's only nine of us in marketing.
Naomi [0:15:43]: We're on we're a one hundred person team.
Naomi [0:15:45]: And like you said, we're up against like, Apple and Right Microsoft.
Naomi [0:15:49]: And like, enormous company.
Naomi [0:15:51]: So we have to think differently and a little bit scrappy.
Naomi [0:15:54]: So it was me in my little garden office at the time, with my iphone, and I don't even know if I had a mic in my first video, but I just thought let's just try.
Naomi [0:16:06]: Let's just try.
Naomi [0:16:06]: Nobody's gonna watch it, and we'll just put it out there and see where it goes.
Naomi [0:16:10]: And so we committed to a few months of recording video and the strategy behind that was we took I mentioned the productivity methods, quiz.
Erik [0:16:20]: Yes.
Naomi [0:16:20]: Part of that is we actually have, like, productivity methods as, like, a series of blog articles that went to depth into things like the Pom technique and eat the frog technique.
Naomi [0:16:29]: And so I sort of thought, well, that's our best perform in written content.
Naomi [0:16:32]: So what if I just turn those into videos.
Naomi [0:16:35]: Each of those articles becomes video and I do that.
Naomi [0:16:37]: So that became our beginner series, which is, like, beginner guide to the ai eisenhower matrix or what name your productivity method, I did a beginner guide to it.
Naomi [0:16:46]: And it ended up being quite successful off the bat to which I got quite embarrassed quite quickly and started trying to, like, find better lighting and, like, be like, oh, okay.
Naomi [0:16:58]: I actually put some you know, real effort into these videos.
Naomi [0:17:02]: But one of the things the reason I've brought this up when I was talking about the newsletter and that kind of key man risk that you have of having one person be the voice.
Erik [0:17:12]: Yes.
Naomi [0:17:13]: Is, I realized then that the other part of that was not just me during these talking head explain our videos, but also, how do I then empower the rest of the team Yeah do to create content on behalf of To.
Naomi [0:17:27]: So that became a whole suite of internal documentation on how to film video, how to feel relaxed in front of the camera, how to...
Naomi [0:17:37]: Like, we had all of these high two guides.
Naomi [0:17:38]: And that seemed to work and it was...
Naomi [0:17:40]: I I was very brave the but also drafting people in.
Naomi [0:17:44]: I would say, hey.
Naomi [0:17:44]: We're doing this product release video and it can't beat me again, so someone else needs to step up to the plate, and everyone was really kind and we actually have ended up with quite a nice script of dis who are quite happy to raise their hand and record video and I.
Naomi [0:17:58]: So she...
Naomi [0:17:59]: It actually in effect change the culture in terms of creating content.
Naomi [0:18:02]: And now we have Ant anton who's one of our brand developers who creates videos, Denise, who's a product marketer.
Naomi [0:18:08]: She does videos, like, it's kind of many developers actually have put their their face on the camera, which is not something I think you would hear of at many companies, but we've somehow managed to make that work.
Erik [0:18:21]: That's awesome.
Erik [0:18:22]: There's...
Erik [0:18:22]: Yeah, there's a few things we can go down there.
Erik [0:18:24]: One would be I think it's a really good reminder because this is a situation a lot of Content Leaders face, Mh.
Erik [0:18:32]: Which is there's ideas for certain content pillars we can do in different formats, including video.
Erik [0:18:38]: But then sometimes the people who we would want to help us create that content or be the face of it or the voice of it are heads down in their day to day role, and and this isn't necessarily a scope of their role and responsibility.
Erik [0:18:55]: So the dilemma is how do we get them.
Erik [0:19:00]: We know this content will likely work if we can get it done, but the Sm me or exact who we want to help produce it is busy or just...
Erik [0:19:09]: Isn't that interested.
Erik [0:19:10]: Mh.
Erik [0:19:10]: So this is a really cool example of you actually leading the charge on it yourself to give everyone an example or, like, get some momentum with it.
Naomi [0:19:21]: Mh.
Erik [0:19:22]: And then helping paint the vision with that example rather than, like, can you do this or here's how you can do it?
Erik [0:19:29]: You actually did it yourself first, and then you set, like, sort of use that as your wedge with the team to help unlock some of that bandwidth and interest from them.
Erik [0:19:40]: Mh.
Erik [0:19:40]: So I think that's a really good approach.
Erik [0:19:42]: The other is just on this topic of, like, the risk factor or concern of having anybody really on the team, be like, the face of certain content pillars is a very valid risk.
Erik [0:19:55]: Yeah.
Erik [0:19:56]: And concern, but it's one that I think if you take to the natural extreme, I think what you would find is that the only option to not have that risk present would be to have the people who can record content for you only be the founders or owners of the business or those who likely will never.
Naomi [0:20:23]: But, I mean, that's even a risk.
Erik [0:20:25]: Exactly.
Erik [0:20:25]: Exactly.
Naomi [0:20:26]: Because they sell the business.
Naomi [0:20:27]: Exactly or they decide Our actually, I really need deny focus on revenue and so I can't do your videos anymore.
Naomi [0:20:34]: Like, there's plenty of risk up there too.
Erik [0:20:36]: Exactly.
Erik [0:20:36]: And at the same time, I think what we are seeing now is that the content that is performing at the highest degree of engagement and retention and results.
Erik [0:20:50]: Are those that have a person, not a, like, just a brand behind it but have a person that's a part of that brand behind it.
Erik [0:21:00]: Yeah.
Erik [0:21:00]: And whether that's on their own personal profiles or can still be on the company Youtube channel, but, like, it's a person there.
Erik [0:21:06]: It's not a face list branded type of video.
Erik [0:21:10]: Yeah.
Erik [0:21:10]: And so if you want to unlock the most results with content, then that is the price.
Naomi [0:21:17]: Yeah.
Erik [0:21:18]: That's just a fact that I think we just have to contend with now.
Naomi [0:21:22]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:21:22]: And actually, even extends to written content, Like, one of the things One of the men...
Naomi [0:21:27]: Like, we work with freelancers with our written content just tonight, and one of the main bits of editorial feedback I give is make this more about you.
Erik [0:21:36]: Mh.
Naomi [0:21:37]: It's great that you wanna write this article on how to work with me handbook, you know, for employers or Yeah.
Naomi [0:21:44]: Another one that we're doing recently is like, light project management, like, how you can run projects without all of the b that comes with traditional project management.
Naomi [0:21:54]: Right?
Naomi [0:21:54]: So that's a That's a pretty dry topic to be writing about.
Naomi [0:21:58]: Whereas when you give a freelance writer, the freedom to actually put their voice in there and the voices of others, obviously, we I know that, like, Sm content is what is, you know, needed in written content and awful lot we need to be injecting that more.
Erik [0:22:13]: Yep.
Naomi [0:22:13]: But let the writer write the piece from their perspective.
Naomi [0:22:16]: Almost like it's an op ed that they've...
Naomi [0:22:18]: They're writing for a newspaper.
Naomi [0:22:19]: I feel like it keeps people.
Naomi [0:22:22]: Well, special feel like I know from our statistics like it keeps people more engaged in what you're writing.
Erik [0:22:28]: Yes.
Naomi [0:22:29]: And it adds that human personal element, and it doesn't matter if you've outlined it in Ai, and I'm not saying that you can't use the tools to help you get there.
Naomi [0:22:37]: But put your own lived experience into what it is.
Naomi [0:22:40]: You're producing because at the end of the day, and we could talk about this in terms of b2b.
Naomi [0:22:45]: I have quite strong opinions on this actually.
Naomi [0:22:47]: It's a hell that I'm willing to die on that you cannot, like a team is not an entity.
Naomi [0:22:53]: Mh.
Naomi [0:22:53]: You don't have...
Naomi [0:22:54]: You know, you don't look at a business and have all twelve people in the small business stand trying a computer and make a decision about something that doesn't work that way.
Naomi [0:23:03]: You're dealing with human beings with emotions and maybe a kid that was vomiting the night before, and maybe, you know, a parent that's elder looking after, and they're spending a million place like we all are.
Naomi [0:23:16]: And for that one wee second that you have their attention.
Naomi [0:23:20]: It should be a human connection.
Erik [0:23:23]: Mh.
Naomi [0:23:23]: It should be something from a person on a marketing team that is written for another person on the other end to consume.
Naomi [0:23:30]: And it should let them leaf feeling a little bit more reassured or a little bit less alone.
Naomi [0:23:37]: And I feel like that's how you drive connection, and I feel like we've we've gotten into a bad way of thinking that doesn't matter with b to b.
Naomi [0:23:46]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:23:46]: And it's one of the beautiful things about the fact that we were traditionally b as to do in particular, and then moved b to b.
Naomi [0:23:54]: Was that we kinda carry that through line of, like, we are a small group of people creating a product that helps small groups of people, like, our our Ic is our small to medium businesses.
Naomi [0:24:06]: So we're not going after enterprise and all of the big, you
Erik [0:24:09]: know, Right.
Naomi [0:24:10]: Many thousands of people, which may require different strategy.
Naomi [0:24:12]: But Even then I still feel like it's people to people.
Naomi [0:24:17]: Yes.
Naomi [0:24:17]: Especially now in the time of Ai, we need to hold on to that with both hands because we can use the tool and it's phenomenal.
Naomi [0:24:27]: Like, nobody's going to deny the fact that it's changing how we work.
Naomi [0:24:31]: But I do still in my heart of hearts believe that we should be writing content four people that can be read by robots Mh.
Naomi [0:24:42]: And not content for robots that can be read by people.
Erik [0:24:46]: So good.
Erik [0:24:46]: So good.
Erik [0:24:47]: Yes.
Erik [0:24:48]: Completely agree.
Erik [0:24:49]: When you were going through this process, with refreshing the Youtube strategy.
Erik [0:24:57]: Mh.
Erik [0:24:58]: And over that time leading up to now, which you're at fifty...
Erik [0:25:03]: Yeah.
Erik [0:25:03]: You just crossed, I believe fairly recently, fifty thousand subscribers.
Erik [0:25:06]: Yeah.
Erik [0:25:07]: On Youtube.
Erik [0:25:08]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:25:08]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:25:08]: And to put that context, we...
Naomi [0:25:11]: When I took over the strategy, we were growing by a hundred subscribers per month.
Naomi [0:25:16]: Which just like, so teeny tiny.
Naomi [0:25:19]: And then I were averaging around twelve to fourteen hundreds subscribers per month.
Naomi [0:25:24]: So we've more than ten extra monthly subscribers, which is
Erik [0:25:27]: incredible.
Erik [0:25:27]: So really.
Erik [0:25:28]: In, like, fifty thousand total, and you're at that twelve hundred fourteen hundred per month pace.
Naomi [0:25:34]: Mh.
Erik [0:25:35]: What are...
Erik [0:25:35]: Some approaches or recommendations you would give to another Content Leader who wants to help unlock Youtube for them.
Erik [0:25:44]: That's a very big topic.
Erik [0:25:45]: There's people who dedicate their entire career to Youtube?
Naomi [0:25:50]: Oh, it's a world.
Erik [0:25:51]: That is it's a whole it's a whole thing for sure, and I'm I'm very much in that world.
Erik [0:25:56]: But what have you found?
Erik [0:25:58]: Just any nuggets of tips or recommendations you have for how to think about that as as another Content Leader maybe wanting to kinda get Youtube up and running for them.
Erik [0:26:09]: Because for my opinion, I put Youtube at, like, an S tier channel.
Erik [0:26:14]: Mh.
Erik [0:26:14]: But the utilization of that channel, especially in b b is I would say maybe five out of a hundred or less b b companies.
Erik [0:26:27]: Are really using Youth youtube in the way that you are.
Naomi [0:26:30]: Oh, yeah.
Erik [0:26:31]: And so it's actually...
Erik [0:26:32]: If we look at that, a tiny percentage of the competitor set that's out there is using it, and it's an s tier channel.
Erik [0:26:41]: In my opinion that makes it a no brainer to be investing in.
Erik [0:26:45]: Yeah.
Erik [0:26:46]: But the question is, and this is where it can be scary a little bit is, like, it almost sounds like Reddit to...
Erik [0:26:52]: In some ways where Reddit can be a little bit area.
Erik [0:26:54]: It's like, how do we do this right?
Erik [0:26:55]: Yeah.
Erik [0:26:56]: There's a lot of ways to do this wrong?
Erik [0:26:57]: It sounds like you...
Erik [0:26:59]: There's a huge lift, all those things.
Erik [0:27:01]: So any recommendations or insights you found as of late or in general about how to make Youtube successful.
Naomi [0:27:08]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:27:08]: I've got quite a few.
Naomi [0:27:11]: Let me see what I can rat off for you.
Naomi [0:27:13]: Look at what's already working for you in other channels.
Naomi [0:27:15]: And then see if there's no appetite for on Youtube by just doing very basic keyword research.
Naomi [0:27:20]: Are people searching for similar topics is there a market for similar topics do not get put off by the fact that other people have videos on the same topic because it may look at first glance, like some of them are saturated, but they're really not I feel like Youtube there's not enough content on Youtube, which is as a mother of two children who...
Naomi [0:27:40]: You know, their Youtube time is limited, but when they watch it, I'm like, oh, my god.
Naomi [0:27:44]: There's so much on there, But actually, for perfect.
Naomi [0:27:46]: There's not a lot.
Naomi [0:27:47]: And so I feel like it's really ripe for the picking.
Naomi [0:27:50]: I feel the bard entry is quite high though, because a lot of people don't wanna record themselves or don't have employees that want to record themselves.
Naomi [0:27:58]: So I feel like willingness to be on video is actually something we should be recruiting for.
Erik [0:28:03]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:28:04]: I feel like that should be something that's in your tool belt if you're hiring marketers.
Naomi [0:28:06]: It's quite wise.
Naomi [0:28:09]: I mean, I'm about to hire I, and one of the things that's on my job description is that person has a good camera presence.
Erik [0:28:16]: Love it.
Naomi [0:28:17]: That's something that can be learned.
Naomi [0:28:18]: You know, it's it's not something that has to come straight out of the box, but one of the tips that I often give if people are a little nervous by starting that and putting themselves in front of a camera is, like, because it's a weird thing.
Naomi [0:28:29]: Right...
Naomi [0:28:30]: I mean, having a calls one thing, but actually sitting in a room on your own with this contraption in front of you is a bizarre thing to do.
Naomi [0:28:38]: And so I think the best result comes from, imagine you're talking to a really smart friend.
Erik [0:28:44]: Mh.
Naomi [0:28:45]: So it helps you zero in on one person.
Naomi [0:28:49]: Because if you had told me when I was recording videos that, like, a hundred and sixty thousand people were gonna watch it, I would have evolved and I was no way I would been able to record that video.
Naomi [0:28:56]: Right?
Naomi [0:28:56]: But at the time, I was just thinking of the camera lens is a single person who has specifically asked me for my thoughts and advice on this one topic.
Naomi [0:29:05]: The other thing is having a really, really good rumble at the beginning.
Naomi [0:29:09]: Turn your camera on record and talk absolute nonsense for as long as you need to until you feel the nerves go and you start to feel more comfortable.
Naomi [0:29:17]: And then, and then you're good to go and add things is wonderful.
Naomi [0:29:21]: Yes.
Naomi [0:29:21]: As you know.
Erik [0:29:22]: Yes.
Erik [0:29:22]: That's really good because half the battle to your point is, like, being bought in to let's record videos and then getting to the point where recording the videos are as frictionless as possible.
Naomi [0:29:37]: Yes.
Erik [0:29:37]: Just in terms of, like, you not feeling like, it's a big hurdle to get the camera set up, sit down have something to say, like, all of that stuff, like, kind of getting that process to a point where it feels easy and efficient to.
Erik [0:29:52]: For example, I know this is just a small detail thing, but my setup that I'm recording with right now takes me ten seconds to go from working in this exact same spot I'm in right now to having the setup up to record podcasts and Youtube and video content.
Erik [0:30:08]: I just have to do...
Erik [0:30:09]: I just have to move Yeah.
Erik [0:30:11]: One thing, basically.
Erik [0:30:12]: And so just things like that to optimize it.
Erik [0:30:15]: Now once they've got the video recorded, and obviously, the topic is really important to your point seeing what else is out there that's working well.
Erik [0:30:24]: Not being scared by that thinking...
Erik [0:30:26]: Well, I can't create a video on this topic because there's already four other videos on it.
Erik [0:30:31]: Four videos is nothing.
Erik [0:30:32]: That's it's absolutely nothing.
Erik [0:30:34]: Yeah.
Erik [0:30:34]: There's segments on Youtube that have millions of videos on them.
Erik [0:30:39]: Yeah.
Erik [0:30:39]: And so to your point, I think it's very much a blue ocean.
Erik [0:30:43]: Mh.
Erik [0:30:43]: Any sort of tip on an interesting insight you've seen on what created that that environment for you to be able to go from a hundred subscribers a month to that twelve hundred fourteen hundred?
Erik [0:30:57]: Is it just mainly been like, putting in that concerted effort and over time that has built up?
Erik [0:31:03]: Or has there been, like, a little like, an interesting little tactical nugget you have found whether that's on the packaging of the videos yeah or your initial, like, first thirty seconds of what people hear when they hit play?
Erik [0:31:16]: Like, whatever the case may be.
Erik [0:31:17]: Even if it's a small little detail thing, I'm curious if you found anything.
Naomi [0:31:21]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:31:21]: It's firstly just a point on how ridiculous it is that my light isn't working for me to actually have good lighting in this video, but, hey.
Naomi [0:31:28]: H, hopefully, people give me a little bit of grace on that one.
Naomi [0:31:31]: So a very interesting little tidbit for you is that we notice a drop in our click through r when I painted my room a different color.
Naomi [0:31:42]: Interesting.
Naomi [0:31:43]: So that really, I had always heard your title and your thumbnail are so important.
Naomi [0:31:49]: And, you know, we worked on them.
Naomi [0:31:52]: We didn't pay enough attention to them in the beginning, and I were actually going back and, like, changing thumbnails and titles to videos it sort of
Erik [0:32:00]: Yes.
Naomi [0:32:01]: We think had good quality content, but maybe didn't perform as we wanted them to.
Naomi [0:32:04]: But it was...
Naomi [0:32:05]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:32:06]: My preview...
Naomi [0:32:06]: My first round of videos I was peeing...
Naomi [0:32:09]: Or I was in a room with white background.
Naomi [0:32:10]: And so all my thumbnails were me in a room with the white backgrounds.
Naomi [0:32:13]: There was bit of contrast going on there.
Naomi [0:32:15]: And then I decided that I wanted to paint that room into something warmer.
Naomi [0:32:19]: My husband said that it looked like I'd melted barbie and painted them onto the wall, but it was like a...
Naomi [0:32:24]: I personally thought it was like a nice setting plaster, pinky B y color.
Naomi [0:32:29]: Beautiful.
Naomi [0:32:29]: Youtube hated it.
Naomi [0:32:31]: And not that anybody vocal that nobody knew nobody really realized, but the actual click through rate of the videos because I have blonde hair.
Naomi [0:32:39]: I have fair skin, and then I had this, like, B background behind me, not enough contrast.
Naomi [0:32:44]: And no mind of us upping the contrast in post was gonna fix that.
Naomi [0:32:49]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:32:49]: So whenever I I I ended up to my walls wide again?
Erik [0:32:53]: Yes.
Naomi [0:32:53]: Because I was, like, it be such a stark difference.
Naomi [0:32:55]: So your thumb thumbnails matter hugely, and there's plenty and plenty of courses that you can go on out there that would teach you all of the sort of ins and nights of that, But I did Ali dolls, Youtube.
Erik [0:33:11]: Cool.
Naomi [0:33:11]: Was it called part time Youtube academy.
Erik [0:33:13]: Part time Youtuber.
Naomi [0:33:15]: That's one.
Naomi [0:33:15]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:33:15]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:33:16]: I took that one in the beginning, and that sort of help me get over the, like, oh, god.
Naomi [0:33:20]: I'm gonna put myself on video thing.
Naomi [0:33:21]: But...
Naomi [0:33:22]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:33:22]: So there's there are plenty plenty of ones site there that you can look up though, but, yeah.
Naomi [0:33:26]: Thumbnails and titles.
Naomi [0:33:27]: Mean more than you realize.
Erik [0:33:30]: Definitely.
Erik [0:33:30]: I mean...
Erik [0:33:31]: Sorta What I love about this...
Erik [0:33:33]: Your approach and your recommendation is you first just got started.
Naomi [0:33:39]: Yes.
Erik [0:33:39]: Use your iphone, you didn't let perfection slow you down from shipping.
Erik [0:33:44]: Yeah.
Erik [0:33:45]: And then I'm just such a believer in content in general as perfection through iteration.
Naomi [0:33:52]: A hundred percent?
Erik [0:33:54]: Because it's impossible.
Erik [0:33:55]: We all know our market Well, we know our audience well.
Erik [0:33:59]: We know our company Poe well.
Erik [0:34:02]: Yeah.
Erik [0:34:02]: And usually, we can be pretty close to our strategies is being correct, but they always have it insights that come once we start shipping.
Erik [0:34:12]: Mh.
Erik [0:34:13]: That then help us evolve it into the next versions that ultimately make it better and better and better and better.
Naomi [0:34:18]: Yeah.
Erik [0:34:19]: And so there's an eighty twenty to this, which is what you executed really well.
Erik [0:34:22]: And then you can get into...
Erik [0:34:25]: Once you've got that base, then you can look at each area and say, what what are rooms for improvement.
Erik [0:34:29]: You know, now let's re look at our thumbnails.
Erik [0:34:32]: Yeah.
Erik [0:34:32]: Again.
Erik [0:34:33]: And then you can go back to your point, you can go back and refresh those in all the archive ones.
Naomi [0:34:38]: Mh.
Erik [0:34:39]: In the library because you will still get views come through on videos that I've been there for six months.
Naomi [0:34:46]: Oh, that's another wonderful thing about Youtube, but I don't feel gets talked about enough is, like compounding effects of over overtime.
Erik [0:34:54]: Yes.
Erik [0:34:54]: Absolutely.
Erik [0:34:55]: It's another good reminder to create a concept for one to four videos.
Naomi [0:35:01]: Mh.
Erik [0:35:01]: And just, like, do the eighty twenty approach on it and ship them.
Erik [0:35:04]: Yeah.
Erik [0:35:04]: And just see what happens.
Erik [0:35:05]: Yeah.
Erik [0:35:06]: Then get into all the science later there are people who spend as much time on a thumbnail creation.
Erik [0:35:11]: Yeah.
Erik [0:35:12]: As they do the video Itself.
Erik [0:35:15]: Yeah.
Erik [0:35:15]: I mean, So, like, you and you don't have to get to that let...
Erik [0:35:18]: You don't have to start there.
Naomi [0:35:20]: We're we're not mister base.
Naomi [0:35:21]: You know, like, that's yeah.
Naomi [0:35:22]: Start not that high.
Erik [0:35:24]: Right.
Erik [0:35:24]: If you wanna, like, really go aggressive in a positive way.
Erik [0:35:28]: Yeah.
Erik [0:35:29]: Right from the jump, feel free.
Erik [0:35:30]: I mean, it...
Erik [0:35:31]: It's more resources and stuff, but it it's definitely a good idea, but you don't have to.
Erik [0:35:35]: Yeah.
Erik [0:35:35]: So That's great on that.
Erik [0:35:38]: I'd like to talk about a couple other things.
Erik [0:35:41]: One would be reddit.
Erik [0:35:43]: Mh.
Erik [0:35:43]: And then the second would be how you look at the success metrics of content.
Erik [0:35:51]: As a whole through these different...
Erik [0:35:53]: Whether you look at it channel by channel, collectively, just what, you know, what is giving you the confidence in knowing whether that be quantitative or qualitative.
Erik [0:36:02]: Mh.
Erik [0:36:03]: That the different content things you're doing is working?
Erik [0:36:06]: I think that's it A lot of different teams and people have different methodologies for that.
Erik [0:36:10]: So I'd be curious your take on it.
Erik [0:36:12]: But one first, one thing that's really picking up a lot of momentum in sentiment.
Erik [0:36:16]: I feel like from content teams and marketers.
Erik [0:36:19]: And b2b b is reddit it.
Naomi [0:36:21]: Mh.
Erik [0:36:21]: And you all been there for, a while?
Erik [0:36:23]: You've got a great community there.
Erik [0:36:26]: So what advice or things have you seen that are working well with that or you would, you know, share with other Content Leaders.
Naomi [0:36:35]: Do you really wanna hear my honest answer on this because it's probably not happy be.
Naomi [0:36:39]: Yes.
Naomi [0:36:40]: Please.
Naomi [0:36:41]: Reddit don't wanna hear from your marketers?
Naomi [0:36:43]: They don't want us in there.
Naomi [0:36:46]: I'm...
Naomi [0:36:46]: I have got a red account.
Naomi [0:36:48]: I don't post in r slash because it's not a marketing channel.
Naomi [0:36:53]: Right?
Naomi [0:36:54]: It's a place to actually engage with people who care enough about your product to have subscribed to subreddit about it.
Naomi [0:37:01]: So what...
Naomi [0:37:02]: Who they wanna hear from an our team is they wanna hear from our CEO, they wanna hear from our head of Product Dominic.
Naomi [0:37:07]: They wanna hear from Our cx team when they've got issues.
Naomi [0:37:11]: And so they are the people that operate in that space.
Naomi [0:37:14]: And we don't even really look at reddit as a marketing channel that much.
Naomi [0:37:18]: We sort of even even though it's obviously a top referral for L.
Naomi [0:37:22]: Now at the moment from what we can see anyway with the limited data that we're all getting.
Naomi [0:37:26]: And we...
Naomi [0:37:28]: Are that community is moderated by itself, and it was built by itself.
Naomi [0:37:33]: It wasn't something engineered by us.
Naomi [0:37:35]: We just knew people were talking about the brand and wanted to Be there to feed questions or help whenever things were going aw, you know, if there was, like, a bug with something or whatever and it gets mentioned on Reddit, we'll hop in blame what's happening when the fix is coming.
Naomi [0:37:49]: So we have...
Naomi [0:37:51]: And and people on reddit are fierce man.
Naomi [0:37:53]: Like, they really hold their...
Naomi [0:37:55]: Opinion strongly, and I feel like they are incredibly smart.
Naomi [0:38:01]: Blame an incredibly emotionally intelligent.
Naomi [0:38:04]: And so if you start going in as a marketer with all of your marketing spiel about, like, hey, guys.
Naomi [0:38:10]: I was wondering if you could give me some feedback on this thing I was thinking of writing or whatever thing you're gonna try and do.
Erik [0:38:16]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:38:17]: They see right through that, and I personally would not waste people's time with that.
Naomi [0:38:21]: I feel like you have a wonderful channel.
Naomi [0:38:24]: If you can build one for your company, please do or or at least get people to moderate it, you know, that are part of that reddit community.
Erik [0:38:31]: Mh.
Naomi [0:38:31]: But it needs to have the presence of the right people, and they are the people in control of the product in one way shape or form?
Erik [0:38:38]: Such a good point.
Erik [0:38:39]: And did you all create that channel initially or did...
Erik [0:38:44]: The community created it.
Naomi [0:38:46]: No.
Naomi [0:38:46]: I don't think.
Naomi [0:38:47]: So I know it's always been moderated by the community.
Erik [0:38:51]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:38:51]: It's never been moderated by an employee of just.
Erik [0:38:54]: Right.
Naomi [0:38:55]: And I...
Naomi [0:38:55]: To the best my knowledge, they created it.
Naomi [0:38:58]: I could be wrong in that one, but I'm pretty sure that it was created by the community back.
Naomi [0:39:03]: Oh, god.
Naomi [0:39:04]: It's been around for ten or twelve years.
Naomi [0:39:06]: That reddit it.
Erik [0:39:07]: Yeah.
Erik [0:39:07]: And and I know, especially for that Ll Reason, a lot of companies are very interested in that.
Erik [0:39:12]: Mh.
Erik [0:39:12]: Right now.
Naomi [0:39:13]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:39:13]: But I think that's seas gonna change.
Naomi [0:39:16]: I do.
Naomi [0:39:17]: I mean, my background Seo.
Naomi [0:39:19]: So I've worked an seo for a very long time.
Naomi [0:39:21]: And I think what we typically see with these when we have these massive algorithm growth changes is that they will weigh heavily towards at, you know, three websites in the beginning whether they're sort of figuring things out.
Erik [0:39:34]: Right.
Naomi [0:39:34]: And then it all starts to.
Erik [0:39:36]: Right.
Naomi [0:39:37]: So we can kind of not panic too much.
Naomi [0:39:40]: We're...
Naomi [0:39:40]: We have the luxury of not panicking too much because we have got a pretty good presence on Reddit.
Naomi [0:39:44]: Yep.
Naomi [0:39:44]: But I I do suspect that that's gonna iron overnight over time and that we'll be going back to a broader segment of authoritative domains.
Erik [0:39:57]: Yes.
Naomi [0:39:57]: And it's also why I don't think blogs are dead either.
Naomi [0:39:59]: I know everybody says it.
Erik [0:40:01]: Talk to me.
Naomi [0:40:02]: But I I really don't.
Naomi [0:40:03]: I don't honestly don't think they are because and maybe my logic faulty, I'd love you to point out if it is.
Naomi [0:40:09]: But L script the Internet.
Erik [0:40:13]: Mh.
Naomi [0:40:13]: For contents.
Naomi [0:40:13]: To spit out what they spit out.
Naomi [0:40:16]: And, yes, they're going to be looking at other authoritative sweet like sources for that content.
Naomi [0:40:22]: Right?
Naomi [0:40:22]: They're gonna be looking at, in our case, you know, Pc mike or reddit or wikipedia or whatever.
Naomi [0:40:28]: Like, they're gonna be picking up stuff from there.
Naomi [0:40:29]: But They're also scraping your content.
Erik [0:40:32]: Right.
Naomi [0:40:33]: And so like, for instance, for us, I did a content audit recently and realized, hey, actually, you know what?
Naomi [0:40:38]: We're not...
Naomi [0:40:39]: We're not don't have a lot of content on project management.
Naomi [0:40:41]: Like, we've got some, but not enough to really...
Naomi [0:40:44]: They're have any kind of demi demand authority there.
Naomi [0:40:47]: So one of my jobs now is creating more project management content because I want Ll to be able to pick up what we're putting down in terms of How we describe our approach towards project management.
Naomi [0:41:00]: Right?
Naomi [0:41:01]: So I feel that although last click attribution, like, was it ever even a thing anyway, nobody knows.
Naomi [0:41:11]: Right?
Naomi [0:41:11]: Right.
Naomi [0:41:12]: So although you can't directly attribute your blog to anything really anymore.
Naomi [0:41:17]: Logic tells me that generating your own content as long as it's genuinely useful to your reader.
Erik [0:41:26]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:41:27]: And communicates your brand ethos and your product positioning really well, then weather gets read by humans or robots, it's kind of a a win win It doesn't really matter.
Naomi [0:41:41]: Right?
Erik [0:41:42]: I think there's a really important deli here of why I I agree with you overall and why your approach in my opinion is the right one given that, which is you are writing first for the human.
Naomi [0:41:57]: Mh.
Erik [0:41:58]: Not for the L or for Google.
Erik [0:42:01]: Yeah.
Erik [0:42:01]: And a lot of companies.
Erik [0:42:03]: Oh, I know.
Erik [0:42:04]: Say.
Erik [0:42:05]: Probably the far majority.
Erik [0:42:06]: The last decade have written for Google.
Erik [0:42:10]: Yeah.
Erik [0:42:11]: And so If we go look at all the data on that, all these low intent keywords, Mh.
Erik [0:42:19]: That get indexed by Google and are not valuable pieces of content for the most part.
Erik [0:42:25]: Are clicked on by somebody, it gets a lot of clicks, a lot of traffic.
Erik [0:42:29]: Yep.
Erik [0:42:30]: But for the most part, builds zero affinity.
Naomi [0:42:34]: Mh.
Erik [0:42:35]: And it results in effectively zero conversion.
Erik [0:42:38]: Mh.
Erik [0:42:38]: And so now whether you're...
Erik [0:42:41]: These pieces you are gonna...
Erik [0:42:42]: You are creating because they have your points of view, they're written by...
Erik [0:42:47]: From a person.
Erik [0:42:47]: Yep.
Erik [0:42:48]: They have that person's context baked into it, it has the end human being who's going to read this in mind.
Erik [0:42:56]: Mh.
Erik [0:42:56]: As how can we actually provide education or information or insights to them that will help them.
Erik [0:43:03]: Now where that...
Erik [0:43:04]: Now there's just more places for that information to live.
Erik [0:43:07]: Yeah.
Erik [0:43:08]: It can live in the L.
Erik [0:43:09]: It can live in the Ai overview at Google?
Naomi [0:43:12]: Exactly.
Erik [0:43:12]: Or it can actually live in the actual article that people, you know, find elsewhere, or you can
Naomi [0:43:18]: Yeah.
Erik [0:43:18]: You can, link through it to...
Erik [0:43:20]: From your newsletter, you can create an offs shoot of that for a Youtube video.
Erik [0:43:25]: Like, there's lots of different ways you can now use that, but the important part is that you're not writing for Google and you're not writing for chat Eb.
Naomi [0:43:34]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:43:34]: And by the way, that's the way it was always supposed to be done.
Erik [0:43:37]: Exactly.
Naomi [0:43:38]: Like, Google has been telling us that's since the beginning.
Naomi [0:43:40]: Right?
Naomi [0:43:40]: Right for people.
Naomi [0:43:41]: That's the way we're supposed to do it.
Naomi [0:43:42]: And, yes, I know a lot of companies got quick wins with programmatic Seo and and things like that.
Naomi [0:43:47]: But This is what I mean by ed iron z eventually.
Erik [0:43:51]: Yes.
Naomi [0:43:51]: Google's feel a very smart people.
Naomi [0:43:53]: And well cup on whenever there's a imbalance an algorithm for how things are weighted.
Naomi [0:43:58]: Yep.
Naomi [0:43:59]: So, yeah.
Naomi [0:44:00]: That's why I do feel though.
Naomi [0:44:02]: It's kind of marketing one zero one.
Naomi [0:44:05]: Right?
Naomi [0:44:06]: You know?
Naomi [0:44:06]: Yes.
Erik [0:44:08]: Just back to the basics.
Naomi [0:44:09]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:44:09]: Totally.
Naomi [0:44:10]: And I think if one positive thing I mean there are many positive things, but one positive thing that's coming out of the whole Ai and content thing.
Erik [0:44:18]: Mh.
Naomi [0:44:19]: Is I think it is going to drive us more towards connection and looking for actual people generating content.
Erik [0:44:27]: I agree.
Erik [0:44:27]: And and there's just more places for that content to live and everybody can live on the platform that they prefer.
Naomi [0:44:33]: Exactly.
Naomi [0:44:33]: Actually, that's kind of how we design our content pipeline is long form content first.
Erik [0:44:40]: Yes.
Naomi [0:44:40]: Because it helps you it.
Naomi [0:44:41]: It helps you come up with all the little Neon nuance spit.
Naomi [0:44:43]: And then you can split it out into a video script.
Naomi [0:44:46]: It can become up.
Erik [0:44:48]: Yes.
Naomi [0:44:48]: Variety of shorts.
Naomi [0:44:49]: Yes.
Naomi [0:44:50]: I know some people start video first and then go the other way, but I think just because I'm a writer at heart I always find starting with the long form.
Naomi [0:44:57]: Yes.
Naomi [0:44:57]: There's just more content offs shoots from that.
Erik [0:44:59]: Yeah.
Erik [0:44:59]: Absolutely.
Erik [0:45:00]: It's really...
Erik [0:45:01]: It's, like, what is this idea?
Erik [0:45:03]: And then it can be the domino sort of sequence chain
Naomi [0:45:07]: Mh
Erik [0:45:08]: of how that idea lives on each of the platforms.
Erik [0:45:10]: Yeah.
Erik [0:45:11]: And some people...
Erik [0:45:12]: You can start long form written.
Erik [0:45:14]: You could start long form video.
Erik [0:45:16]: Youtube...
Erik [0:45:18]: You know, whatever the case may be.
Erik [0:45:19]: Mh.
Erik [0:45:19]: But the key is the idea?
Erik [0:45:22]: Yeah.
Erik [0:45:23]: So as we wrap up, one last question I would have is how do you look at the metrics, reporting, measurement, and and this could be qualitative quantitative.
Erik [0:45:36]: Mh.
Erik [0:45:37]: Anyways, you look at how do you get feedback on either reporting to the rest of the team on how the content is performing or how you look at it, personally channel by channel or overall.
Erik [0:45:50]: Yeah.
Erik [0:45:51]: But, yeah, there's a lot of different ways people look look at this stuff, So I'm curious how you approach it.
Naomi [0:45:56]: For a bit of an evolution of this at the moment to be honest.
Naomi [0:45:59]: So we've never tracked content to sign ups.
Naomi [0:46:02]: That's not something we're ever really interested and we're very aware it takes many different touch points before somebody's ready to actually sign up.
Naomi [0:46:10]: Right?
Naomi [0:46:10]: The ninety five percent.
Naomi [0:46:11]: They're sort of just flirting with you for a little while before they I think, right.
Naomi [0:46:14]: We're gonna go and and sign up to this thing.
Naomi [0:46:16]: And so that's...
Naomi [0:46:18]: Thankfully, we've never had to track that.
Naomi [0:46:20]: Because I can't think of a bigger waste of time for a content person than having to, like, connect all of those dots, you know?
Erik [0:46:27]: Yes.
Naomi [0:46:28]: So, What I would have usually looked at things like engagement before.
Naomi [0:46:34]: But I think even that's changing now.
Naomi [0:46:36]: And I think I'm kinda going back to marketing one one and starting to look a little bit more impression and reach and that kind of brand awareness piece.
Erik [0:46:45]: Yep.
Naomi [0:46:46]: The other thing that's really important to me is growing subscribers because if someone's going to actually go out of their way to look at your content and say, I really like what this brand are saying.
Erik [0:46:57]: Yes.
Naomi [0:46:57]: And I want more of that.
Naomi [0:46:59]: That's one of the biggest signals that you can get.
Naomi [0:47:01]: Yep.
Naomi [0:47:02]: So I monitor things like our unsubscribe rate to the newsletter to Youtube and the unsubscribe from the newsletter as well.
Naomi [0:47:10]: I wanna know, you know, our people...
Naomi [0:47:12]: More people unusual dropping off like, how is the the quality of the content going over time.
Naomi [0:47:17]: And we we track all of the...
Naomi [0:47:19]: We do track all of the metrics.
Naomi [0:47:21]: I will say, like, we look at the clicks and we look at the impressions, and, you know, we look at all all of the different metrics on social media, but the ones that I would wait most heavily are depends on the channel too right, Like, on Linkedin.
Erik [0:47:36]: K.
Naomi [0:47:37]: Impressions sort of matter more to me than followers, especially to the brand page.
Naomi [0:47:41]: And something that we're doing quite a lot night as well as sponsoring other people's posts when they write things about to do it and just reach tonight and saying I'm like, hey, do you mind if we put a bit of paid behind us and they're like...
Naomi [0:47:52]: Tomorrow.
Naomi [0:47:52]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:47:52]: They're like that would be great.
Naomi [0:47:53]: We give them a little something in return and we they're out off into the universe and everybody wins.
Erik [0:48:00]: It's smart.
Naomi [0:48:00]: So that we're looking at breach an impressions.
Naomi [0:48:02]: We won't know how many people have actually...
Naomi [0:48:04]: It's it's a market we've not engaged with.
Naomi [0:48:06]: Right?
Naomi [0:48:06]: It's gonna be an audience we've probably never tucked into before.
Naomi [0:48:09]: So I wanna sort of see what the reaction is there.
Naomi [0:48:11]: And then when it comes to news newsletter, one of the reasons we didn't get talking about it, but we moved the newsletter to subs, which was a controversial move.
Naomi [0:48:20]: I had many marketers messaged me being, like, what?
Naomi [0:48:23]: Or why would you do that?
Naomi [0:48:24]: Like...
Naomi [0:48:25]: You know, especially if you're going B, this makes no sense, you know, it was largely driven by the qualitative of data that we were getting.
Naomi [0:48:34]: It was we had the newsletter before, and it was just coming from a usual newsletter management system from me, my work email address to the subscribers.
Erik [0:48:45]: Mh.
Naomi [0:48:46]: And I was getting inundated with replies of people Mh.
Naomi [0:48:50]: Wanting to engage in a conversation about what was written.
Naomi [0:48:53]: And so over time, I sort of thought well, This is a bit of a wish to have all this in my.
Naomi [0:48:58]: I'm having great conversations up having a wonderful time on the second day of the month I'm just spend my whole day replying to people, You know what It's great, but it's not really allowing them to see that other people share their thought and their problems Yeah.
Naomi [0:49:12]: And things like that.
Naomi [0:49:12]: So the drive move to subs stack was...
Naomi [0:49:15]: I just love the commenting system.
Naomi [0:49:18]: The fact that people who go on and comment on a post and they see each other's comments and they can reply to them, and I reply to them and it just feels a bit more like a community.
Naomi [0:49:26]: And so I feel like there already was that signal there for community with the fact that people were so actively engaging in email responses, and then I just pulled that out into the open into the world where we could kinda all talk to each other about the topics.
Naomi [0:49:39]: So...
Naomi [0:49:40]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:49:40]: So lots of different metrics.
Naomi [0:49:42]: I'm not gonna say there's one silver bullet metric that we're looking out.
Naomi [0:49:46]: There's not really.
Naomi [0:49:46]: We have got different metrics for measuring, sort of brand awareness.
Erik [0:49:52]: Mh.
Naomi [0:49:52]: But they're...
Naomi [0:49:53]: They're kind of a Frankenstein of many metrics pulled together.
Naomi [0:49:56]: You know, so we've got, like, visibility from Sem Rush teamed with Youtube subscribers teamed with.
Naomi [0:50:01]: Newsletter of subscribers.
Naomi [0:50:03]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:50:04]: All share voice stuff all comes together into its own sort of in house metric that we share.
Naomi [0:50:08]: But It's kind of a keen eye on it rather than really going.
Naomi [0:50:12]: Okay.
Naomi [0:50:12]: The strategy is driving this number.
Naomi [0:50:14]: You know?
Erik [0:50:16]: Yes.
Erik [0:50:16]: I figured that would kind of be the approach based on your your underlying content philosophy and the reason being this is all an ecosystem working together.
Erik [0:50:26]: Yeah.
Erik [0:50:27]: It'd be really hard to say.
Erik [0:50:28]: Let's cut Youtube because we didn't see someone click from the Youtube, you are...
Erik [0:50:35]: The Url, to do in our Youtube bio.
Naomi [0:50:39]: Yeah.
Naomi [0:50:39]: They're already all watching Ariana Ariana Grande video or something, You know, like, the Algorithm I'll go show them somewhere else.
Naomi [0:50:45]: They're not going to your website.
Erik [0:50:47]: Exactly.
Erik [0:50:47]: So, you you could look at that and say, well, how many clicks are we getting from Youtube.
Naomi [0:50:53]: Mh.
Erik [0:50:54]: With click based attribution to a sign up from Youtube as our metric for success.
Erik [0:50:58]: Yeah.
Erik [0:50:59]: And it sounds to me...
Erik [0:51:00]: You and I both know.
Erik [0:51:01]: That is a that's a faulty...
Erik [0:51:03]: That would be a faulty metric to follow, and it would lead you to the wrong conclusion.
Erik [0:51:07]: Yep.
Erik [0:51:07]: Yeah.
Erik [0:51:08]: I love how you all are thinking about this and and doing it.
Erik [0:51:11]: There likely is a lot more we could go into, people we'll do around too.
Erik [0:51:15]: Someday.
Erik [0:51:16]: Yeah.
Erik [0:51:16]: I hope that.
Erik [0:51:17]: Thank you for this time though, and sharing everything about your all's content strategy and your approach in general.
Erik [0:51:22]: I would recommend to everybody listening to go study what we talked about today.
Erik [0:51:28]: Go sign up for to do a newsletter.
Erik [0:51:31]: Go sign up go subscribe to the to the Youtube channel go, follow and pay attention to not just the advice shared here on the podcast, but actually, like, learning by consuming the content and seeing it from firsthand approach.
Erik [0:51:46]: And check out, if if you're in need of task management and productivity software, go check out to newest it.
Erik [0:51:53]: And if you want an alternative or a a great platform for communication checkout out twist.
Erik [0:52:00]: Anywhere else, you would recommend people Naomi me to go follow, subscribe, check or connect with you at?
Naomi [0:52:08]: Probably just Linkedin.
Naomi [0:52:08]: This standard dirt, you know, we're all in there these days.
Erik [0:52:11]: Cool.
Erik [0:52:11]: Awesome.
Erik [0:52:12]: Well, thank you.
Erik [0:52:13]: This was amazing, and we'll catch her one of the next one.
Naomi [0:52:15]: Thanks so much, Erik.
Erik [0:52:16]: Bye.