Leona 0:00
In this episode, of the living ancestor, we build on the foundation laid by Roman Krznaric, in our first episode, by now exploring the transformative power of decolonization and reconciliation in education. In this episode, we have the privilege of speaking with Dr Dustin Louie, a remarkable scholar and educator whose work is transforming Indigenous education across Western Canada. Dr Louie brings a unique and powerful perspective to our conversation. He is a mixed race First Nation scholar from NAD lewiden and Nitai ban, First Nations of the Dakelh People. He belongs to the Beaver Clan, currently serving as an associate professor at the University of British Columbia and director of the Indigenous teacher education program nitep. Dr Louie's journey is deeply rooted in his personal experiences and cultural heritage. Growing up in rural northern British Columbia, raised by a single mother alongside his siblings, Dr Louie witnessed firsthand the absence of indigenous representation in education. This early experience, combined with his later work in urban academic settings has profoundly shaped his understanding of colonization and its impacts today, Dr Louie is at the forefront of decolonizing and indigenizing education, leading transformative efforts across various districts, organizations and agencies in Western Canada. His work bridges the gap between indigenous knowledge and Western educational systems, paving the way for more inclusive and equitable learning environments. Join us as we delve into Dr Louie inspiring journey and explore how his work is helping to create a legacy of positive change for future generations. Let's learn how we can all contribute to the vital process of decolonization and become better ancestors in the process. Welcome to the second episode of our podcast, Dustin. Thank you for coming out and agreeing to talk about this important work. So in the summer, I readBarriers to Engaging with Reconciliation in Canadian Education: Confusing Colonial and Western Knowledge, I found it to be incredibly profound in the way that it lays out things so clearly for educators to look at areas of decolonization within education systems, K to 12, post-sec, and so I have some questions for you, but the first one is beyond what people and have heard from the intro to this podcast, tell me a little bit more about yourself than what people would generally know about you.
Dr Dustin Louie 2:32
All right. Well, thanks so much for having me. Leona. I'm real thrilled to be here with you. So I guess like on my bio mentions that I'm both that I'm Dakelh from Nadleh Whut'en and Nee Tahi Buhn. And one of the interesting things I think, to consider is that, you know, which system are we giving power to and defining our identity? So for me, I think about like our pilot system is the one where many of us, like, get our identity from, and within our pilot system, I sit in Nadleh Whut'en , so like the nation where most of my family come from, and a lot of the history and place where I spent more I spent most, most of my time on, the which reserve I spent most of my time in, but then, according to the Indian Act, I'm a member of Nee Tahi Buhn, and that's connected to like, all sorts of things to do with, like education funding and all sorts of areas like that. So I think that like belonging to multiple communities, and how the Indian Act, and how like, systems of colonization define where we're from and who we're connected to, I think, is really interesting. And like some of these ideas that we talk about, and I talk about in the paper as well, about like, the imposition of colonial systems like that impacts that, like my identity, like where I can claim to be from, something else I was writing about recently in a new article I'm working on, is I was adding to my, sort of, my grounding statement of, like, where, you know, how do I connect to this work? I think in, like, indigenous scholarship, there's a requirement that we're always, you know, grounding ourselves in relation to the work that we're doing. And whenever some colleagues and I are taking a running CJ and E now Canadian Journal Native education. And one of the requirements that we're going to do is everybody in their article has a statement that grounds them in relation to the work, because their identity should be a big part of like, that's the lens in which they see it through. And in my most recent statement I've made, I talk about how, you know, being from the north, like Leona and I being from the same communities, and being First Nations really is the lens in which I see a lot of Indigenous issues through. And what I mentioned is that, you know, it's not at all diminishing the importance and the need for voices that come from like Metis, or like Eastern First Nation, or like Inuit communities, but just recognizing that unconsciously, this is kind of the lens in which I see these issues through. Is like Western British Columbian experiences, both because that's the nations that I'm from, but also like these are the places where I do most of my work in, as well being at University of Calgary before this and now being at UBC and just doing work all over the province and lots of spaces like these are the issues in which I'm connected with and the people in which I connected with. So I kind of mentioned, like, you know, sometimes when I use the term Indigenous, a part of that is biased or privileging First Nations folks, because that's the way in which I see a lot of these issues and experience a lot of these issues. But then it's complicated again, because, like, First Nation gives power to government agencies to define who belongs and who doesn't and all sorts of things. So I think, like, those components of identity are so complicated for so many of us. And I think when you see a bio that we that we give, or that we share when we give talks, there's a lot of complexity that goes into that. Like me just naming two First Nations, like that's a lot of complexity to name there. You know, us defining ourselves as Dakelh rather than carrier, like that. There's a lot of complexity and history combined in that. You know, me identifying as being a beaver within the potlatch system, like that's recognizing those systems, and there's a lot of complexity associated with it. So, you know, I think there's ways in which we can unpack just those, like, basic statements that we make. And then, you know, as being a professor at UBC and the director of iNITEP as well. You know, there's so many histories that are associated with that. You know, directing NITEP now is celebrating our 50th year, and the folks who've been directors before me, who've, like, done just amazing work creating so many of the foundations of Indigenous Education here at UBC. You know, seeing ourselves like the team that I work with, seeing ourselves as the folks who are now like carrying that work that's been so amazingly done in the past generations by so many matriarchs within the system like Verna Kirkness and Jo-ann Archibald and Jan Hare. I think these like singular statements that exist within our bio can be like, unpacked so deeply to talk about what our connections look like and like both like, how it situates us in specific territories, but then what legacies are we taking on with the work we're doing as well? So yeah, I think that. I just think the complexity of that bio, like they're going to hear a bunch of things in the bio, but there's like, stories and complexities that go behind all of those. And I think now that we're entering this period of being more intentional about claiming identity and being more intentional about claiming spaces, I think it's good for us to, like, unpack some of those things for folks so they get a sense of like, what those things mean. Think for like, people like you and I, who like grew up in our traditional territories, and like are very connected to our nations. There's a sense of privilege in that that all Indigenous folks don't have, because colonization kept lots of people away from their territory, or kept people away from their communities for various reasons. So I think, just like really intentionally unpacking and sharing some of those histories, I think is really important. So I think, like some of the ways in which that goes sideways is not so much like an issue of, like, what's Indigenous enough, which is a really dangerous conversation to get into, but instead, like being vague about our connections and our histories, like, I think there's that's where a real danger lies, because if we're misleading folks upon like, what our lived experiences are like, that's when it becomes incredibly problematic in my perspective. So I just, I think it's really important to, like, be really comprehensive when I'm talking about some of our histories.
Leona 8:11
You and I have had these conversations because we have very parallel histories. I too, identify with two nations, Lake Babine, which I'm a member of, a proud member of, since I was 13. But I come from Nak'azdli Whut'en Fort St James, and so I think I too am very careful when I'm trying to describe those things. But it feels kind of it feels like an affront to my ancestry that I have to be so careful, it feels foreign in a way, that we have to craft those things so specifically and think and have those layers of political thought when we're saying those things, even though we're just identifying who we are as part of our communities and very proudly, very proudly. And this is a new thing. Whereas once you know you and I are visibly Indigenous, and clearly are from a place, and you know both of us, we're proud of our families and our lineages and all those pieces. And so when we go to introduce ourselves, locate ourself however we're presenting ourselves in the world. It's coming from that, that that place of resilience, survivance, all those other pieces, and so I feel, I feel deeply connected to what you're saying and what you were just saying, because those words on a paper don't do justice to the multitude of layers, even going back to an area that I've been working in, just honoring that matriarchy, and if we follow it, you know, far back you and I've had this conversation, I think for both of us, it leads back to lately. And so you just, you scratch the surface and go, at least, for myself, I know that to be true. If you scratch the surface our clanship, you know, being part of the Lhts'umusyoo clan, the Beaver Clan, following that back, it actually there's a reconciliatory piece there. And also it brings a lot of richness to the history we remember the parts of who we are.
Dr Dustin Louie 10:26
yeah, and I think, like, part of the need for us to be more comprehensive in our explanation is that we're venturing very far from our territory as well. Like, if both of us stayed in, like, just like, never left, and we're only working with folks who are like in our immediate territory. There need to be less explanation, because people know those territories. People know those families, and know that we belong to them. But it's when we come down like, I'm in Musqueam territory now, like they don't know folks in the nation, like they don't know Nee Tahi Buhn, which the Indian Act recognizes me of being a band member of, they don't know folks within the pilot system, within Nadleh Whut'en, so they it just like, I think a lot of it has to do with getting further away from our territory. Sometimes they're working with people who aren't connected to those territories as well.
Leona 11:12
What I love, and this is a perfect segue into talking about your article, because I think what I love about this is that it explores Western identity and identity markers and things that I hear from educators out in the field. So your research highlights the confusion between colonial and western knowledge and education. Can you explain the key differences between these concepts for our listeners?
Dr Dustin Louie 11:38
Yeah, so this emerged out of work I do in the social service realm. So I do a lot of work with different social service organizations on like, how they can practically decolonize some of their practice. There's a lot of like, really significant change happening in this area right now. And I noticed that people in senior positions, especially anytime they refer to anything Western or coming from, like, European culture, they always named it colonial. They would say, like, that's the colonial way of doing things. And every time, no matter what it was, they would use that term to reference it. And I was like, Oh, well, that's not totally accurate. Like, that's Western. So I got me interested in writing this because I started teaching about it a little bit. That's typically the way I go when I write things, is I get interested in something, and then I then I start presenting on it, when I'm giving keynotes or professional developments. And if people get drawn to it, I expand it a little bit more. So I get a lot of reps of like, talking it through before I ever start writing it. And in this instance, I started talking about, like, what are elements of Western cultural traditions that are separate from colonial traditions. And one of the things that sort of I talked about in the article that inspired me was when I was in Iceland, and I was at a conference, and one of the guys who was Scandinavian, who was leading the conference, got up in front of everybody and was talking about relationships to time in Scandinavian culture, and was talking about how there's like, a real strict adherence to time within those cultural spaces. And I was reflecting on how many people would have referred to that as being colonial, like hearing those heads of their social service organizations, they would have seen that as being sort of a colonial practice. And the thing that I really want to emphasize for folks is it becomes colonial when it's imposed upon people from a position of power. So like, let's say, within our traditions, in our community, there was a different relationship to time. And Scandinavian folks came over here and forced us to adhere to this, this other form of time that would be an act of colonization, because it's saying, it's taking these cultural values that exist in other places and requiring us to practice them. So the main difference is, you know, Western cultural traditions, which are totally valid, like the work in decolonization is not trying to rid Society of Western cultural traditions. It's trying to highlight the ways in which those have been imposed upon other people, the ways in which those have been positioned as being the only or the best way to do things. You know, I think when we look at Colonial systems, we see so many ways in which that has occurred, you know, residential schooling, which the original focus in the last like 20 years was on the abusive components of it, which is incredibly important to understand and learn about. But we also need to look at the other components which imposed ways of being on people. Like, how many students went into those places? And there was an imposed spirituality on them. There was an imposed like way of, what does it mean to be a child? Does it mean to like, grow up trying to move into being an adult? What does it mean to parent? What does it mean to like all these cultural elements of it that were so embedded within our way of being? And I think that I want to really differentiate when folks would come into this work from western communities, or, you know, Western European or, like, white culture. Our expectation is not that they're going to leave behind all of their cultural practices, but they're going to stop imposing them on everybody else and using these as the standard from which everybody should operate. So, you know, when it comes to schooling. There should be Western components that are exist within schooling, but we need to recognize them, first as being Western and not being universal, and second, creating space for other non western perspectives to be equally valued, not just present, but equally valued there. So like colonial practices would be the imposition of those and the Western ways of knowing, and knowledges are just like the existence of ways of knowing that began emerging within Western cultures. So I think there's a big confusion between the two of them. And when we problematize all Western cultures being colonial, then why would Western folks want to get involved in this work? Because we're problematizing all of their cultural practices, and that's not the aim at all. We're problematizing the imposition of those, the primacy of those, the seeing those as being the superior only way of doing things. That's what we're problematizing.
Leona 15:48
Yeah, and I think you've really hit on the dissonance I've felt and seen in my work as well, within the K to 12 public education system. And I think by separating those two, it helps people, because there are definitely things that we need to confront, we absolutely need to confront, but one of the pieces, and I won't speak universally about Indigenous people, but from our own perspective, is that we need to work together and layer knowledges we're better together. And I think once we get to those spaces where we're like, these things actually align more than you think, and can help create, you know, some problem solving for some of the things that we're currently witnessing. And I think by only seeing one perspective, we've done a disservice to humanity by only seeing through one lens. When you have a diversity of voices, things can be quite powerful. You talk about it being a barrier to reconciliation. So how does this confusion impact efforts towards reconciliation in Canadian schools?
Dr Dustin Louie 17:03
So I think there's oftentimes, like a miss mischaracterization of the work that we're doing. So when we go into school systems and we design courses or we're promoting, like, decolonial approaches, there's a mischaracterization of the work oftentimes that tells people that it's divisive. First of all, it's the first thing they'll say, you know, people who come up against this work will say, like, you're dividing our students. They'll say things like, if you weren't teaching this racism wouldn't be a problem, and you're saying like you're creating shame for white students, like that's the aim of what we're trying to do, and it's just completely inaccurate to what we're actually trying to achieve through this work you know, coming from our system, our potlatch system, the spirit of generosity is one of the things that really directs the way in which I take up this work. And I'm a real firm believer that change happens through acts of generosity. It doesn't happen through acts of like confrontation all the time. Sometimes you need confrontation, but that's not the default setting. So I think it really mischaracterizes what we're trying to do. So if we're in school systems, challenging colonization, challenging the way in which like Indigenous voices and perspectives and ways and truths have been silenced, the ways in which Indigenous ways of knowing have been intentionally just destroyed in some instances, or taken away from us, or made us to feel shame about it, the way in which sort of white supremacy has influenced a great deal of this work, by disrupting those things, it's not creating this division. I think it's a way of like explaining the current situation we find ourselves in. You know, if we think of like the environment that you and I grew up in, Burns Lake, there's a great deal of violence that existed within the student body between Indigenous and non Indigenous students consistently and like a huge amount of very overt racism that was happening in that space. For the most part, most of us were completely the history of that place was completely hidden from us. You know, the histories of how conversation happened there in a very overt ways, and then in more is in more nuanced ways as well, was totally hidden from us. So we didn't know these histories of positioning one another as being like enemies, in some way, as being like no, there's scholars that talk about Indigenous people are being positioned as these impediments to progress of like we're getting in the way because we're, like, still holding on to some of these lands, or we're having some sort of influence over it, like we don't realize we're in the middle of this, like, long standing, like, political oppression that's happening in those places, and with all those conversations, we don't know why we're in this place of tension with one another, but we're deeply in this place of tension. And I think the idea that by explaining how we got to the place we're at right now is going to cause that division, I think, is just, it's so misguided. And I think there's already this tension, and there's already this discomfort. You know, you and I have done research in this area, and we talked about Indigenous students experiences within this system, and so many of them report experiences of racism quite regularly. And even we're thinking about work forms, so these students are already feeling sense of discomfort. But I think there's this idea, or there's this intentional mischaracterization, that the our work and the work that we do of decolonization is going to lead to some sort of like this is causing the problem. This is separating those students. So I think by, you know, challenging those ways that the work is viewed, it creates a pathway where we can begin doing the work. You know, there might be a small group of folks who are going to continue to be resistant to the work, no matter what it looks like, but I think a huge percentage of Canadians, once we clear out the mischaracterizations of claiming what the work is, there'll be so many more people who are open to doing it. And if, for some of those folks, you know, if they're just hearing, you know, the work of decolonization is not problematizing whiteness and it's not problematizing settlerism. It's problematizing the ways in which that's been practiced historically. It's saying the relationship that has existed in the last centuries in this country has been based upon colonial relationships. It's not the people that are the problem, it's the way in which power is created as the problem. And decolonization is trying to challenge these power structures and trying to challenge like the systems that exist there and the interpersonal relationships that have happened, and it's sort of reimagining what settlerism and Indigenous relationships can be going forward. So I think just that, that clearing up what the work is and what it isn't, almost, you know, telling people what, what we're not trying to achieve through this, I think, is a big part of like, reducing those barriers or limiting the barriers,
Leona 21:42
I think there'll be a lot of people who are listening to this who are like, okay, and feel better at that distinction, because I think it's incredibly important. I I've said this before, and I've said this to you, so if I'm an educator, an administrator, how can I better distinguish between colonial practices and western knowledge in my own work, just some baseline level distinctions. And I know you've alluded to some of that in what you've said, but I think people need more like practical, concrete examples as as sort of like a stepping stone to doing reconciliatory work in a really meaningful way.
Dr Dustin Louie 22:25
Well, I think one of them is just like, what if we looked at, say, we looked at like our mission and vision for a school that you're in, and say we found, like, a bunch of claims to, you know, holistic education that like responds to the needs of students, and sort of the same thing you've typically seen a lot of like me, lot of like mission and vision and strategic planning that exist. I think one of the things that we can do is, whose definition of those terms are we relying on? So if we think of ideas of like, you know, we were talking about before the session, we're talking about, like, parental engagement. If we were talking about like, whose definition of engagement are we using? Are we assuming that everybody engages in the way in which folks do in the West? Or are we considering like we live in diverse communities with many ways of coming together, many ways of visiting, many ways of making decisions, and thinking about reflecting upon like, really foundational ideas that we use within systems of education, and are we only considering them from one cultural perspective? And I think the thing that happens to us through histories of colonization is we see the western perspective as like, the only way things happen, or the default ways in which things happen. And we never begin to question, like, are there other cultural norms that exist outside of there? So I would say, like, even like, if you're a school teacher, like thinking about setting norms in your classroom. If you begin to set norms and you say, like, you know, like, generosity, the term I talked about already, if we said, all right, general generosity is going to be a core way in which we exist within this classroom. Are we allowing for a diversity of voices of what that generosity might look like? Because for different people, that might look incredibly different. I saw this paper. It was written by a prince, I can't remember what the first name was and I cited it in my most recent article. And he was saying that, you know, within Dakelh territory, it's the land where, like, generosity is the foundation of the way you lead and the way you exist as well. So like, when we're setting those norms in our classroom, are we relying on only Western conceptions of it, or are we trying to seek out other ideas of like, what that could possibly mean? You know, one of the ways in which I've done this in my own work is through the work of witnessing, and I've used that, and we've used it as well in some of the work that we've done. And if I was to say like witnessing is going to be the main pedagogy we use within this space, well, there's a Western version of being a witness that we have in many systems that exist here. If we think of like the legal system could be one version of that. And if we look to how they practice witnessing there. It's very different than if you go into our potlatch system and you see how we witness there, there's totally different responsibilities. So using this form of witnessing and that exists within the legal system, and assuming that's a shared practice for everybody else, that would be an act of colonisation, because you're imposing this idea of witnessing other people without naming it as being culturally connected, and seeing it as being the shared way in which we do things. So like my the way in which I always see this work is not through, you know, I wrote this article over the summer, but relentless incrementalism. And it's this idea that like social change happens slowly and it happens incrementally. It happens through us, like taking on small approaches and continue to push and push until they become bigger and bigger. So if folks, and you're listening to this, the expectation is not that they're going to like reconfigure the way they do everything in their teaching or everything within their leading, but finding these small spaces to begin with. So it's looking at like, what are some of the say you're a school leader and you have these specific like goals that you're trying to achieve, are those strictly from a Western conception of what that means, whose voice is included in deciding what those goals might be? If we're looking at like from a teacher perspective, and you're thinking about parental engagement are you thinking about the relationship you hold with students like whose knowledge systems are using to define what those terms mean, or define what those actions might be? So I think it's like it's a lot of it's just starting with reflecting and being open and just being able to see that, like man without even thinking about it, we don't realize how many of our systems are based upon just Western knowledge, and how oftentimes, there's no space for other ways of being and other ways of knowing to exist within them. So just like, I think even at the beginning, it's just that ability to recognize and see those things happening, because we've been raised in systems that privilege Western ways of knowing so strongly that it's hard for us to even recognize when it's happening. Like, for example, when I first started here at UBC with our advisory we used Robert's Rules Of Order as the way of like making decisions within an Indigenous organization. So it was like, we have our own systems for making decisions that exist within our communities, and the fact that we're relying on a Western system that's being imposed on us to make a decision. It's very much not recognizing this. We're like almost voluntarily participating in colonisation instead of using our own systems and making decisions. So I think it's just like taking things that we think of as being just universal and beginning to question them. That's like a place where a lot of folks can begin to start, yeah, and I think, I think seeing that in the class, that in the classroom can be really exciting.
Leona 27:44
Thank you for that, and I love just the little ways. And first is like just confronting thought patterns. And I'm going to highlight a conversation that I had with my friend and colleague, Jody Billingsley, and he is doing work around his doctoral, work around the area of storing and so thank you for this Jody, because it lends well to this conversation. He took me through a process that he did with his staff, and I'm so impressed by this. And he borrowed it from from another person. And but what he told me is that he had his staff talk about, who are your 10 most trusted people, and then he got them to think about the intersectionality of each of those people and so and think about the diversity of that group of his 10 most trusted people is, is, are there layers of perspectives and diversity, or are you sitting, and I told them, or are you sitting in an echo chamber? And so how even the people that you surround yourself with, the perspectives that you're immersed in? It made me think of a question I asked at an administrative meeting, especially in an area like the territories that we're in that are very these territories exist in kind of like a two race binary. It's getting a lot more diverse these days, which is really interesting, the dynamics that are changing. But for a very long time there was a two race binary, and I asked the question very honestly, like, how? How many times during a year, and this is in a PvP meeting, do you invite people from the Indigenous community and vice versa? And I'm going to be real honest with you, I told the group. I said outside of my two uncles that happened to be white, because they're married to my Indigenous aunties. I don't purposely have those folks in my home. I think it and just the visceral reaction of inviting folks in, that's how clearly still divided, and there are imaginary divisions within within our communities that still exist. And so I think we need to look at self, whether you're Indigenous or non Indigenous, who is your affinity group, and that important question like I've been contemplating that since I had that conversation with Jodi, and just the small act of looking at self, your worldview, your perspectives, there's perspectives that surround you. How diverse is that group? I think, to challenge oneself and one's perspective and the worldview that you primarily operate from, is another activity that I would suggest that was a great I thought it was brilliant that he had done this with his staff, because I'm like, imagine, you know that those aha moments of I actually have a very diverse friend group. I have a diverse perspectives. It. It has to influence who you are. It doesn't mean go and get a whole new friend group, but it makes you sort of reflect on - what perspective am I existing in? And this is also a barrier for me seeing, you know, these barriers to reconciliation and decolonization.
Dr Dustin Louie 31:12
When I was at the University of Calgary, we had this course, and part of the course was an option for a service learning component, and the students would, you know, in taking this basically anti oppressive course, they also were involved in service learning, like working with an organization that worked for like, marginalized groups throughout the city. And the last assignment they had to do is they had to go to an event that was outside of their typical circle, or, like, outside of their identity. So we'd have folks going to like Sikh temples. We'd have folks go into like LGBTQ marches. We'd have folks going to like homelessness events. And it was really interesting, because the students would come back and they would be under the impression of, like, Oh man, I like, I recognized for the first time what it's like to be marginalized. And what I would come back with is, as I said, actually, I think you know for the first time what it's not like to not be privileged in that moment. And I think you know when we're thinking of like removing this barrier to reconciliation or decolonization for some folks in that position of privilege, it's recognizing for the first time how much privilege they hold that they don't need to know these things. So like in terms of Western knowledge, you and I need to be very aware of Western knowledge, because for us to navigate bureaucracies, education systems, whatever those things are, for us to be successful, we need to deeply understand Western cultural norms, like we would not be successful if we didn't know how to navigate those things, whereas our settler colleagues or our white colleagues, they don't need to know how to navigate Indigenous systems in order to be successful, because Indigenous systems don't hold power within society. So there needs to be like, an intentionally seeking those things out to like relinquish some power and privilege that folks hold in order to like, seek those ways of being out, and then think of, how can we meaningfully embed them within our leading, how can we meaningfully embed them within our teaching? Because the power structures that we exist within does not require that. So I think like that is a really important distinction as well, which is like, those elements of privilege, but also like, what would it mean to seek out those those ways of knowing? What would it mean to seek out those other ways of being and that are just as valid and just as productive ways of living, and embed them in this in the education system in a really meaningful way? And I think the way we see the initial embedding of Indigenous ways of knowing within school systems is often in very tokenized ways. It's like we're going to take this brief detour from our regular learning to learn about these Indigenous ideas, then we're going to come back to our regular learning, and it's almost seen as like something that's totally separate from it. But I think when we're really decolonizing, it's when we're embedding that as like this is foundational learning that's like, just as important as anything else we're going to learn. You know, I think I was talking to Superintendent about this not too long ago, and I was talking about the Indigenous grad requirement that exists now. And I think it's a tacit recognition that up until this point, most students in British Columbia graduated without any knowledge of Indigenous peoples or histories or cultures. And the question that we were asking was, do we fundamentally believe that society in this province believes that to be an educated person, you need to know about Indigenous knowledges, Indigenous histories, indigenous peoples? Do we really believe that's what that's a component of what it means to be educated. And I think in the push for decolonization, that's what we're trying to get. We're not just getting inclusion, seeing it as being like. Fundamental to what it means to be an educated person is to know these things. And I think that's like, that's a really exciting next step in decolonization.
Leona 34:58
Absolutely. And this is the loaded question, and I'm just going to ask it, and then we'll see what happens. But what role do indigenous educators and elders play in helping to clarify these distinctions and guide reconciliation efforts?
Dr Dustin Louie 35:16
Yeah, I'm like, really torn on this, because I think there's people who self select to be part of these conversations. Like, I think I'm one of those people who self select, like giving talks in a lot of places. I was I met Kevin Lamoureux for the first time a few weeks ago, and he and I've been given like, talks in the same places all over the place. And it was really wonderful to meet him. And also, I was thinking about, there's so few of us, like you and I and Him who like, in addition to the work we do, are like, going and speaking in all these places to like so many people a year. And I was thinking there was a real, like, kinship that we hold in doing those things, of like, knowing what that experience is like. So I think for some of us who like self select to take up this work, it's a little bit different from other Indigenous folks who maybe, like, don't want to take this on necessarily, and don't see this as one of their responsibilities. Because I think the complexity of as Indigenous people taking up this work, you're, we're kind of asking for our humanity when we're going to these places, and then we're asking for our humanity to be recognized. Because I think, you know, one of the main elements of colonization was to dehumanize Indigenous people, to delegitimize like our ways of being and knowing make it seem like we're less than and what we're doing in this work of decolonization is showing and trying to disrupt these ways of thinking. And I don't think all Indigenous people should be, most Indigenous people should be required to do that. So I think there's some of us who self select and feel comfortable enough and have that support to be able to go into those spaces and like have these conversations. But I think there's in many schools that I've witnessed there's just an assumption that all Indigenous people are comfortable doing this. So you know, September 30 will come up, and they'll ask some EA's to go in front of the school and, like, lead the conversation. It's like we never asked them if they're comfortable. Maybe they're still processing their own trauma around this. Maybe they like, they want to feel comfortable at work, and if they have to go in front of the whole school and begin challenging people that will make it an uncomfortable place for them. You know, lots of times I think it's really helpful for people to come in and do this work externally rather than internally. Because if I go into a school district, or you go into come into UBC and talk to folks, you can come like, cause all kinds of trouble, say things that are like, provocative and that need to be provocative in challenging this, and then you get to, like, go on about your business, and it's not going to impact your day to day well being. And I think, you know, there's too often an assumption that Indigenous people are both comfortable or feel like they're positioned properly to take up this work. You know, lots of Indigenous folks that I've talked to as well because of colonization, because all of us, in some way, you know, have been pulled away from our culture, pulled away from certain things, lots of us feel like we shouldn't be the people representing our community. And there's, there's a real fear of that for lots of folks. So I think, I think it, I think it's great that there's like, strong Indigenous voices out there who are like, including our perspective and what the change should look like, and really creating this theory, creating this change in practice, like at all levels, sort of addressing it. But there shouldn't be just the assumption that all Indigenous people want to take up that role. And I think, like within the movement of reconciliation, which I see, is fundamentally challenging the underlying relationships. You know, I see, I think we oftentimes think of the symptoms of of colonization instead of the root causes of it. You know, residential schooling is a symptom, missing and Indigenous women and girls is a symptom. All these things are symptoms of this underlying relationship of like, devaluing Indigenous people, dehumanizing Indigenous people. And I think we we look to the symptoms as the problem. And we think by attending to those symptoms, that's what we're doing for reconciling, but it's not attending to the meaningful underlying relationship. And in this paper that I'm working on right now, one of the elements that I talk about is, I think in Canada, we're in this place of like sustained cognitive dissonance. And what I mean by that is that we hold these specific ideas of what it means to be Canadian. And there's lots of research on this, like Regan talks about this, like, peacemaking myth of Canadian history, this idea that, like, Canada is this peaceful place that's based on human rights and based on, like, a meritocracy in various things we learn in education and other places. We're taught this over and over again. We always, oftentimes see ourselves in comparison to like the US. And we think of like how much better we are in human rights and how much of a less bloody history we have compared to them. So we have this real belief in Canada as being this like, peaceful place when we learn about you. These acts of colonization. It's hard for us to square it away with this core belief we have about what it means to be Canadian. And I think we're this idea of cognitive dissonance that I use for non idea of it talks about when we hold a core belief and then we get contradictory information, and we hold these two things at the same time. And we're in this period of discomfort, and I think we're in this period of prolonged, or sustained cognitive dissonance, because for now two decades, we've been hearing these stories of colonization as it relates to Indigenous people. For many people, many settlers, they just weren't hearing these stories prior to, you know, the beginning of the 2000s and I would say the last five to 10 years, it's ramped up even more, but they're hearing and believing these stories, but they're not challenging their underlying beliefs that they hold about what the history, the character of this country, or the civic identity that we hold as Canadians, and that allows them to see these moments as an aberration, or what Benjamin justice calls as extraordinary. So like seeing residential schools, or seeing like the 215 Kamloops we're seeing, like all these moments, it's seen as extraordinary. It's like this does not match this idea that I hold about what the history of this country is. And you know, Patrick Wolf talks about, he says that, you know, colonization is a structure, not an event. And I think that too often the way that we view colonization as an as an event, the event of residential schooling, the event of the 60 scoop, the events of missing and murdured Indigenous women and girls. But if we look at any of those moments, we can see this like incredibly complex system that was designed perfectly in line with that. So I think it's about, it's not only about, like, drawing attention to those events, but drawing attention to these are not extraordinary. These are well within this was like, this is a predictable outcome based on all the systems that existed. We looked at the Indian Act. All these things are the expected outcome. It's not, it didn't happen. You know, it could be incredibly predicted, if you look at it. So I think these conversations need to be like complex and ongoing. And I think that there are some indigenous people who self select to be a big part of these conversations, but the pressure should not be placed on us to do all of this educating. And I think especially when it comes to those folks who are very aggressively resistant. I think that's the place where many Indigenous people shouldn't be asked to take up, take up that work. I think that's where, you know, settlers and allies ask, like, what can we do? I think it's like challenging and helping people recognize those relationships. I think it's doing the work with those incredibly resistant folks who like it would be unsafe for Indigenous people to work with. Yeah, I think it's such a complex answer, though, because I just I think there's Indigenous folks doing such beautiful work out there in this area, but should not fall on us only.
Leona 42:53
I agree completely. I also think about something as you were speaking, and I thought about something that was said, and it was so profound, it always get these nuggets of just insight. You and I have been doing this work for a very long time, and like other educated Indigenous folks who you know are have you know their PhD or pursuing doctoral work, have done many layers of education. We know the history of colonization in and out. So I was sitting at a family event, and my sister in law Fern, she said, "When I learned about colonization", and you should have seen I wish you were there, because my head whipped around so fast, and I was like, What do you mean when you learned about colonization? And I think you know, even because you and I live in this world and we talk about it constantly, it's in the background of our mind as we continue our decolonial work in various ways that another thing that people outside of our communities need to know is that our people are learning this in the same real time that they're learning about this. Our people may have inklings about it, but we were shielded from a lot, like a lot was not talked about. There have been really and I've shared them with you, very personal, profound things that have been revealed to me about my own family history, that I've had to go back and like do some like trauma work around by assuming that folks are ready to do this work and talk about it and display their humanity, as you say, on display at these public events, you have to do some deep work to be able to speak from that location. You have to know and I think there needs to be this reckoning that Indigenous folks, we have knowledges. We know what happened, we do. But when there are very specific instances, like 215 in Kamloops, like other pieces that have come out about, you know, medical testing, something that impacted my family very greatly in, indeed, in these Indian hospitals, etc, I think there's, there's a lack of knowledge that we are just as shocked, we are just as overwhelmed, we are just as taken aback when you're hit with the raw truth. Because I don't know about your experience, but my experience in my family is that we have a filtered truth, like we're told, but not told. I felt like as a child, the stories I heard were horrific, but when I actually found out the truth of some of my family stories in residential school, it was shocking. And people assume that we do know these things and we don't. And so when you ask folks who don't self select, I love that to do this work, they're not ready, and maybe they they don't know that. And I don't think we should shame our people into thinking that we're all knowing and that we understand colonial history. Thank you, Fern for making me realize that one of the privileges that I have through earned, privileges that I have through, you know, years of education, is that I understand colonization. What I was grounded in and humbled, in a way, is that not all my people are there. And that was a huge lesson for me in that.
Dr Dustin Louie 46:32
Yeah, when you were talking, it reminded me of so last, not last September 30, but the one before I was in Lejac, which is the residential school where a lot of our ancestors would have gone to, and I gave, I gave a talk on September 30, and afterwards, one of the people from the community asked me, and I didn't mention it in my talk, but it was just like, somebody I never would have imagined asking this, and they came up to me and they were like, what's systemic racism? And I was like, Oh man, I was real excited, because, like, that's what I talk about all the time. And like, think about, and I gave this, like, long explanation to it, and it like you were saying, it reminds us that, like, even if we've had these experiences, we might not know how to put it into to frame it, or put it into words, or, like, be able to share it. Like, I think when I, if I when I was sharing with him, like what systemic racism was, which is, like we have interpersonal and systemic. And systemic is the way in which the structures of society are designed to oppress people. So if we think of like the pension component, like with so up until 1988 it was illegal for Indigenous people to pay into the Canadian or First Nations people to pay into the Canadian pension plan. So that's systemic. There's systems that are created that are meant to oppress people. And I was talking, I was talking to this person about it, and I could see the light bulb go on. I could see him thinking about those experiences in his life that were systemic racism. So there's, I think they're like you were saying, there's a belief, there's an assumption, that we're all just, like, incredibly well versed in these ideas, and like as someone who researches this and writes about it and teaches about it and thinks about it every day, like I'm learning all the time about it, like my thinking shifts, or I learn new things that I didn't know before. And I think of like 20 years ago, I would not have been in any position to be able to speak with any of this stuff, because I had so much learning to do, both about, like, their own histories of our communities, you know, learning about so many elements of, like, theoretical ideas connected to it as well. And I think, like, I think the emotional component is really, you know, critical for us to speak about as well. You know, I think as somebody who, like, talks about this a lot, thinks about it a lot, and is like, Yeah, I think I feel pretty comfortable going in from in spaces and having some of these conversations. Not everybody feels that way, and we shouldn't put people in the position to like, have that stress. You know, even for me as someone who like, I think can be a little more robotic than other folks and less in touch with my emotional side more in touch with my analytical side. Like, there are still times when it like gets too much. You know, I think, I think discussing the Indigenous issues can be incredibly complex and difficult. But I think in addition to that, sometimes people see those spaces as places where they can share all of their emotional experiences as well, and in those circles, we're expected to carry that emotional weight. So stuff that has nothing to do with indigeneity, people just see that as a space where, like, all right, I can, like, everybody's speaking about their trauma, and then we're expected to be the person who carries this trauma for everybody and carry that weight. So it can be incredibly complex.
Leona 49:37
I thought this often, and I think I would love for people to consider this, because I thought about it throughout my career. And, you know, talk to folks like you and others colleagues in the field when you're in a position, as you know, any any sort of Indigenous, specific position you are hired for. You. History, your history of trauma, the history of colonialism within your own family, all those identity issues that you bring everything that's personal to you. That is, you go to work and you are that, and then you go home and you are that. There is no taking off that hat, you know, and I thought about this, and it's wonderful that we're in a space and time where other colleagues recognize that, because it's one thing to think that and to speak to other colleagues so you can empathize with them. But when one of your non Indigenous colleagues says it to you and affirms that it's not that you need the affirmation, but the fact that we're in a space where people are seeing that. So thank you, Carla, for coming up to me and being like, I can't imagine what that's like. And so to your point, some of us are better armed to do that work and self select to do that work, because it truly has to be self selection. You truly have to be grounded, and you lean heavily on the analytical component of it, because there's safety in that. There's if we get too far, I don't get too far into family history and emotion, you'll never hear me share that those are really personal things that in the background I'm working on constantly, as much as you and I are working on this in the background I'm working on, and I can't speak for you, I imagine it's the same you're working on, sort of sorting all of those other pieces out so you can continue to do this work, because you can get fatigued, if in these systems. And so I think, you know, in this decolonial effort, I think there just has to be that awareness of your colleagues and that and that care of those colleagues, and just an understanding and and like my sister in law, Fern, maybe this is the first time listeners are hearing this and that perspective, and maybe, you know, thinking about their colleagues in a different way, and the lens that they aren't constantly having to use. There isn't a separate hat. It's just you.
Dr Dustin Louie 52:15
Yeah, since I'm in the post secondary space, primarily, like, I do a lot of work in K to 12 as well, but since I exist in the post secondary space, one of the ways I explain that is this work is not theoretical for me. Because I think, like, sometimes when we talk about stuff in the academy, or we talk about scholarship, sometimes we like, I I create these theories or frameworks, but then I have to remember. I don't have to remember. I'm forced to remember, like, this is actually impacting my family and my community on a regular basis. So it's not just this, like theoretical exercise of, if we talk to think about things like, you know, the school to prison pipelines, there's, like, a lot of work on that. This isn't theoretical. These are, like, cousins and nephews and nieces of mine that are directly impacted by this. So I think when you were talking about, like that analytical part being a real defense mechanism, I think it's necessary for us, because we can't just live in that emotional space all the time, because you get burnt out, it's not possible to stay in that space. But also what I think is like, you can't stay in the analytical space too long either, because then you'll forget that these are actual humans that you're talking about, and you can't, so you got to try to find ways not to walk a line, but almost like veering between those two spaces and spending too much time in one of them.
Leona 53:29
And I think it's balance. And you and I, in a previous study, published paper on achievement for Indigenous youth, we had to go through this whole process. And you know, in the paper Dakelh oral analysis, we had to let things land in our heart, have and honor those emotions, and then kick it up to our heads. Because how else do you process things? And yet, when we look at data, maybe from, and this is more colonial than Western is. It's fully analytical. You're expected to be analytical, and you're expected to take the humanity out of it, not have those feelings looking at it objectively, when it's very subjective, especially when we're pulling data about Indigenous people. And so I think people need an awareness that there has to be this balance, that there are these components of us and how we show up is the best way possible so we can continue doing this very important work.
Dr Dustin Louie 54:34
One of the aims that we have as one of the things that you see in the academy quite a bit with scholarship historically, is changing now. Was the attempt to like rid ourselves or like our biases from research. It was this idea that we need to get to the space of objectivity, of just what we're seeing, and if we're thinking of Indigenous ways of knowing or Indigenous epistemologies, the exact reverse is what we attempted. And to recognize our humanity and our lens in which we view the world and include that in every explanation. So I think, like within, within our work, within what we were researching, we were trying to remove our Dakelh ways of being or knowing from our research, but to clearly identify it as like this is the lens in which we view the world through, and not, not try to read that. And it's not, it's not something we want. It's not something that's possible, but it's not something we want either. We want to keep our who we are as decades people in that research and in as the lens in which we view it through. There's no, no possibility of like this idea of objectivity.
Leona 55:36
In this whole conversation. It's about honoring voice, and the decolonial perspective is honoring voice. So looking ahead, how do you envision a successfully decolonized education system that integrates both Indigenous and valuable western knowledge?
Dr Dustin Louie 55:55
Yeah, so I think it's to understand that answer. I think it's good to differentiate between like diversity based approaches and decolonial approaches. So in sort of multicultural based approaches, the hope is that by just like exposing people to all these different ways of being, we'll find ways to get along and find ways to like overcome the circumstances we find ourselves in, in like decolonial or anti oppressive approaches. The argument is it's not enough just to share who we are. We need to reflect upon how we got to the place we're in right now. What are the systems, what are the ways we've related to one another that got us to this place we're in right now? And we need to reflect upon how we've internalized these practices and how the how. What are we doing to perpetuate them? What are we doing to recreate them? And I think a big part of that is like doing that reflective component of it, you know, do we have folks? And just like avoiding the fear of getting into these conversations, that fear that folks have, of like, division, or whatever that might be, and having real, honest conversations about how we got to the place we're in right now. You know, what are some of the histories that have existed in our in our country? What are some of the things that still exist today? I think, you know, in the movement of reconciliation, we're trying to, we're always trying to look historically. We're looking at like, what are the things that happened in residential schooling, what are the things that happened during the Sixties Scoop? And we look at these previous periods as like, to understand where we are right now, but we disconnect ourselves from those moments, and by looking only at the historic we take away any kind of personal accountability or responsibility we have to change. We're only attending to what happened in the past, and that's why those approaches are oftentimes based upon, like, apologies and those sorts of things. But there's never a requirement for us to look internally of like, what are we still doing? And then I think it's important to ask ourselves, what are the values or the teachings that allowed that system to exist in the first place that are still present within our systems now, and what are we doing to disrupt and dismantle those systems? And how are we perpetuating them in some way, in a way that's like, not causing, not designed to cause shame, but to cause like the ability to create that meaningful change. So I think it stems in a bunch of areas. I think we've created a culture where there's a fear of naming or recognizing the ways in which we unconsciously perpetuate colonization or unconsciously perpetuate racism or any other element of oppression. And the creation of that culture has been counterproductive to actually creating change. You know, if you create it, if you create an environment where, if anybody makes a mistake or says the wrong thing or does the wrong thing, we like pounce on them and see this as this like fixed perspective or fixed like personality, then why would anybody ever name or recognize the way in which they've unconsciously or reflect upon the ways in which they perpetuated these ideas? And every single one of us has you and me, included, like there's unknown ways in which we perpetuated colonial ideas. So I think like a huge part of the shift that needs to happen in schools is to just understand and challenge the culture that we've created right now around creating change. You know, I think of some of the school leaders I've worked with, and I've worked with a number of school leaders who, like, from time to time, like, reach out, and they reflect upon like, "Oh, I just realized that, like, five years ago I was doing this, and this is this was so bad", and they enter this, like, shame spiral. And I'm always really excited in those moments, because I'm like, this is the place we want to get to where we have the ability and willingness to recognize these things and then meaningfully undo them. So I think a big part of it is just, how do we change the culture around these conversations? And instead of this like, gotcha mentality of like, celebrating those recognitions and celebrating the way folks are deciding to be different. You know, think about, like, think about the schooling that you and I went through where, like, there was no topics connected to indigeneity whatsoever in anything that we learned. You know, we grew up in a community there was 30% indigenous at least, at least huge percentage of First Nation students, a lot of on-reserve folks, and, like, no representation whatsoever of indigeneity. Like, would it be productive for us to go in there and be like, "This is so racist, you guys are a bunch of racists", and just calling everybody out all over the place? Do we think that would lead towards actual change? Or would people, like, dig their heels in deeper, are we not using generosity to engage with this work? And I think like using generosity doesn't mean that we don't confront real issues, but we do that with a view of change in mind, like, what are the conditions necessary that can allow people to change? And how do we create the conditions where people can maintain their humanity and change as well. So I think, like, that's such a huge part of what that that imagine that decolonial future can be. But I think there's also, like, a huge amount of learning that folks need to do. I think, like learning about the residential schools or Sixities Scoop and the abusive components of that is like the entry point for people to begin to have these conversations. But we can't just stay in that space. We need to push way deeper to how this is deeply embedded within so many aspects of Canadian culture. And I'm quite optimistic that, you know, I see people having more complex ideas. I was in a school district last week, and I asked the question of, like, what do they see reconciliation as? And the complexity and nuance of the answers is just light years beyond where it was five years ago or 10 years ago. I think the way people understand some of these issues is like it's just going to such new places and way more complex. And I'm really excited about it. I think that every now and then we see these things that are really disheartening. Does these signs that, like in certain spaces, certain folks are sort of really still lacking some basic education. But I think the conventional knowledge in society in general is moving us in this direction. So, you know, the way I define decolonization in my in the article, is there's three components of like, whose truth, whose story, whose perspectives are valued. So if we think of like our school system we went to versus the ones that exist now, was there any Indigenous truths in this schooling that we were going to? Was there any Indigenous perspectives in this schooling we went to, totally absent, like, didn't exist in any way in that place. The second component that I think of for decolonization is like, whose ways of knowing and being or practice, there definitely zero Indigenous ways of being and knowing that existed within our education experience. And then the last one is like, how do we dismantle white supremacy, which I think freaks people out, because that term just scares people, but I think it's really critical to differentiate between white supremacists, which are the people who intentionally, overtly uphold white supremacy, and white supremacy, which is like a system that provides, that gives power in the hands of white folks, and sort of sees them as being more capable, more trustworthy, all these different things. So, you know, I think for me, that's the way I envision, like conversation of the mind. But there's so many different theories on decolonization that exist out there at the same time. But I think, like those three elements, are things that I always challenge schools to take up. What would it mean to have, like, meaningfully Indigenous truth exist within a school system? What would it mean to meaningfully have Indigenous ways of knowing exist in those places, and what would it mean to like, disrupt and dismantle white supremacy in those places?
Leona 1:03:26
And one thing you told me, and I've heard you say several times, and I think, is a lesson that a lot of people need to hear universally, and I quote you often, is that two things can be true at the same time. People think it's, you know, this, this black and white issue, the binaries, like we've been and, you know, a binary and polarization is a tool of colonization. It's to keep ideals apart. And we've been taught we have to think one way or another, we're this or that we're from this community or that, but what you taught me to think about constantly is that two things can be true at the same time, and this helps undo the effects of that dissonance, because I think we feel like we have to pick and choose, and so I'm always so thankful for that teaching. One thing in the first episode, and it makes me think about this whole conversation that we've been having, that Roman Krznaric said, and this makes me think about forward thinking, that the purpose of why we're trying to decolonize now he said that we are actively colonizing the future. And I never thought about that. And I'm like, if we do not decolonize, we are actively colonizing generations that have yet to be born. And so the work that we hope to achieve by. Selecting to do this work and continuing our exploration of it and our just getting out there and talking about it is for those future generations, and not just of our own people, of all people, how do we think it's a better place? And so my last question for you in this podcast, we invite people who think, we think, are doing the work of being a good, living ancestor. So what does this mean to you, and how does this reflect in the work that you do?
Dr Dustin Louie 1:05:32
Yeah, I think about like, what? When I think about that question, I think about like, the ancestors who've passed on to my family, and the people like the ones who I have great reverence for and think of the role that they played, both within our family and within our community. I was just sharing with one of my colleagues a few weeks ago the obituary for my great great grandmother, Agnes Calder ALU and like all these like brilliant things written about her, but also like thinking about the huge reverence that she carries within our family, of like, being that matriarch who kept, kept folks together. And I sort of began, I started reflecting upon, like, what's my role within, like, my family and my community? Because not the same role that they had as, like those matriarchs, as people holding the family together like that. I don't think that's necessarily the at all, the role that I play within my community or within my family. But I think, I think for me, one of those things of being a good ancestor is, you know, I think about how, unless we like meaningfully upset the system in which we've inherited, we're going to continue to be facing these same issues for a long time. And I think, you know, one of the jobs that I, one of the ways in which I feel like I can be a good ancestor, is by taking the voices of our community and taking the voice of our experiences and being, being someone that, like those other communities might listen to, and being, being someone who can share some of those stories out in ways that are understandable. And I think, I think it's like, almost like an intermediary, both between, like, our communities and our experiences, but then also in the academy, and then taking that into folks who are actually doing the work. Because I think, you know, I try to write and speak in a way that's very accessible. I think that there's folks within the academy sometimes who like speak in these enigmas where it's really hard to follow, and you read a paper like 10 times and you're not really sure what they said. And my interest is always in like, being a participant in change. Like, all the work that I try to do is like, how is this leading towards change happening through creating systems where, you know, I think about, like my nieces and nephews, many of them are still in the territory where you're in right now and where I'm from, and many of them are in this space as well. You know, I think about, what are we doing to actively make sure that they have a different experience than we do growing up, in terms of, you know, being allowed to be who they are. I remember, I was up visiting my brother. Jesse, is a district principal in 91 and his daughter was credited, they had this assignment they did do where they created brochure for people to, like, a tourism brochure to for people to visit Burns Lake. And she created this brochure around people going out to old fort instead. And for me, I was thinking, like, man, that's like, a huge sign that things are changing. Because, like, when we were that age, there's no way we ever would've been like, I'm gonna do one (Dakelh). Because, like, that just wasn't a space where that was safer. Wouldn't, wouldn't even have occurred to us to do that. So I sort of think, like, we're in this amazing moment for the change is possible right now. I think the work that's been done by the folks who've come before us has created this unprecedented moment where change is possible. And what are we doing in this moment while it's possible? And I think like for us at UBC, here at NITEP, I think man, we have the opportunity of creating change that was never available at any other point in history of this university, in terms of having the people here, people listening to us, us having like, the critical mass to make those things happen. We have folks in the school district in positions like yours at a ministerial level, and people in the school systems. And what are we doing in this moment where this opportunity was possible? And I think, like, what kind of sustaining and systemic changes are we making in this moment when it's possible. And I think if people look back when we're gone, when we're when we're ancestors to folks like, are they going to see us as one small piece of this, like, huge movement that happened when these things were possible, to create this sustaining change and to reimagine what systems can look like, to bring humanity back to them, to challenge those colonial foundations of it to create spaces where indigenous people can be who they are, be heard and be valued within there, to have the same opportunities as any other student, which were sort of absent for many of many of us when we were growing up. Yeah, I think it's just like it's it's really building on this momentum that our ancestors have. It for us, and we have the responsibility to carry on, and we're just like, this really critical moment. I know sometimes I get fearful that, like, maybe this moment's not going to last, and what are we doing in these few moments that we have to create this change? Maybe attention is going to go somewhere else and there's going to be less opportunity. And what are we doing in these incredible, critical moments? So while I recognize, like the requirement of incremental change, is it also such an urgency to it, and it's hard not to get caught up in these moments of urgency. But I just think, like participating in building that momentum, is the way in which I can see myself being trying to be a good ancestor.
Leona 1:10:37
And you are absolutely are. You wouldn't be here if you weren't. And I truly, truly appreciate the work that you do, what you contribute to the field, the voice that you bring to so many important issues within education. Thank you so much, and thank you for showing up fully. Usually, this is how our conversations go. We have a little bit more of a lead in and a catch up, and we did before we hit the record button. But I, I hope others follow that lead. Have, you know, form deep relationships and talk meaningfully. I I think of just this. You know, hour has gone by so quickly. And I think about the days when we were researching together, and where we would spend two days doing this. Can anyone imagine out there, two days of this think tank, of just this deep level of conversation around important issues, and it coming from a place you know that again, that Dakelh, oral analysis, having that land in our hearts, and then analyzing it at a really deep level in our heads, so we can create the the future that you are envisioning, that we are we are all envisioning, who are invested in this work. And so thank you for your candid answers, your contribution to the work. Thank you for being a guest. This was incredible.
Dr Dustin Louie 1:12:06
Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. And I sort of echo like the honorable has been, like one of the critical, the most important critical friends I've had in this work, where I think when we come together, working in the same area of education, but also, like, you're being primarily in K to 12, and me being within post secondary. And like, even if it's been like, three or four weeks, like, think we've learned so much in the interim that we just like, process all these ideas and connect with them. And I think having those, like, really important, critical friends or like, communities of solidarity is how Dr Green and I read about it is so important because this work is like, exciting, this work is taxing. This works emotional. And I think like having those folks who can understand what those, what your experiences are like and can like bring new things to mind. I know, like, I really reflect upon a moment with Leona, where I had this difficult experience within research where, like, we had Indigenous parents who sent us some emails really questioning our work as researchers. And Leona really, after I spoke to her about it, and was, like, really having a hard time about it, she sort of really cleared it up for me of saying, you know, you represent a system now, and that system has harmed these people in these communities, and they that's the reason why they're really questioning it. And I don't think there's many other people I could have heard that from in the same way, because of like, those experiences and because of like, having that knowledge within it. So yeah, thank you so much.
Leona 1:13:32
Thank you. And as we say, because we're both Dakelh, we just cut it short. So if you ever hear this from a Dakelh person, it means that is all. (Speaking Dakelh) Dustin.
Dr Dustin Louie 1:13:46
Thank you so much.
Leona 1:13:49
As we wrap up this enlightening conversation with Dr Dustin Louie, we're left with a profound understanding of the complexities surrounding reconciliation in Education, Dr Louie's insights into the crucial distinction between colonial practices and western knowledge have shed light on a path forward that honors both indigenous wisdom and valuable Western contribution. We've explored the challenges faced by educators and institutions in navigating this complex landscape, and we've gained valuable perspectives on how to foster a more inclusive and equitable educational environment. Dr Louie's work reminds us that becoming good ancestors requires us to critically examine our educational systems and practices and to actively work towards meaningful reconciliation. Thank you, Dustin for sharing your expertise and personal experiences with us. Your dedication to transforming education is truly inspiring and gives us hope for a future where all knowledge systems are respected and celebrated. To our listeners, we encourage you to reflect on what you've heard today and consider how you can contribute to the process of reconciliation in your own communities and educational spaces. Remember every. Step towards understanding and inclusion helps create a better world for future generations. If you found value in today's episode, please share it with others who might benefit from this important conversation. Don't forget to subscribe to the living ancestor for more thought provoking discussions on how we can all become better ancestors. Until next time, let's continue to learn grow and work towards a more just and inclusive future for all. Thank you for joining us on The Living ancestor. You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai