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HR entrepreneur Mike Coffey, SPHR, SHRM-SCP engages business thought leaders about the strategic, psychological, legal, and practical implications of bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. As an HR consultant, mentor to first-stage businesses through EO’s Accelerator program, and owner of Imperative—Bulletproof Background Screening, Mike is passionate about helping other professionals improve how they recruit, select, and manage their people. Most thirty-minute episodes of Good Morning, HR will be eligible for half a recertification credit for both HRCI and SHRM-certified professionals. Mike is a member of Entrepreneurs Organization (EO) Fort Worth and active with the Texas Association of Business, the Fort Worth Chamber, and Texas SHRM.
There there are many of the other countries don't have that volume, but they have the same restrictions. And then just adding in because we touched on the UK earlier, the UK has not only is it very difficult to go in, it's very expensive. Right? So it's a year you're looking to spend on a visa for for the UK, 25 to 30 grand per visa, And that depending on the size of your organization, that's very restrictive. Right?
Francisco Solis:Organizations like CBRE or other companies who have the funds to to sponsor that immigration to that country is great, but imagine mid mid level mid midsize, organizations that 30, $40,000 is impactful, and that's restrictive.
Mike Coffey:Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffey, president of Imperative. Bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. And this is the podcast where I talk to business leaders about bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. Please follow rate and review Good Morning HR wherever you get your podcast.
Mike Coffey:You can also find us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, or at good morning hr.com. On Thursday, September 19th, I'll be in Houston to attend Texas SHRM's Global Business Conference. Last week, we were joined by Meredith Morris, the conference's director. In this week, we're joined by Francisco Solis, who will be one of the presenters at the conference. Francisco leads the global immigration program at the Real Estate Services Company, CBRE.
Mike Coffey:He oversees CBRE's global immigration strategy and has over 16 years of in house experience in immigration, international HR, and expatriate management. Welcome to Good Morning HR, Francisco.
Francisco Solis:Well, thank you for having me here, Mike. We're really excited about this podcast. So looking forward to an exciting conversation.
Mike Coffey:Yeah, that's all on you because all I do is ask dumb questions but we'll we'll see where it goes. Okay?
Francisco Solis:There we go.
Mike Coffey:So you you're over immigration strategy at CBRE and I think for many of us when we think about immigration strategy, we're thinking about foreign nationals coming to the US to work. But for an organization with the size and scope of CBRE, I expect it's a little bit more complicated than that. So what does your immigration strategy look like for CBRE? Yep. When we
Francisco Solis:talk about strategy, I I try to think about it, you know, educate the various leaders and various stakeholders with the full life cycle of immigration beyond beyond just, you know, hiring someone and and relocating them to a new country. We're looking at it. We're trying to empower and educate the leaders to think about it from the perspective of whoever you hire, whoever your talent talent acquisition team is bringing in, the quality of that foreign national and employees impacts the overarching, you know, organization. So when we talk about, immigration strategy, we want them to consider, okay, what type of foreign national are you hiring? What is the life the full life cycle that you envision this employee to be?
Francisco Solis:You're obviously hiring a top talent. What does that mean in the next 1, 3, 5, 7, 10 years from now? And really educating them. Okay. What what can we do for this foreign national after we hire him?
Francisco Solis:What what what what are what are our long term paths for for this individual? And if they are that top talent that you're looking for, what opportunities are we giving this individual to grow in their career? So that that's what we consider, you know, you know, immigration strategy, but it's almost immigration slash talent strategy that we're really working with the organization.
Mike Coffey:And y'all have operations, like, in the EU and in other places around the globe. Right? CBRE is just not North America?
Francisco Solis:CBRE is a 115,000 person organization, and we have around 8085,000 of those employees are across the globe. So, EU, APAC, all of the regions. So it it is a massive organization. So as you can imagine, we have a massive talent pool that we can leverage inbound to the US and across other countries.
Mike Coffey:So when y'all are looking for talent, let's say let's set aside looking for talent to work physically in the US and just, you know, your you know, APAC or an EU or someplace, you've got a need. I'm assuming you first look locally for that need, but even though you're US based, you may find the best quality and talent for this you know, for this role in another country from yet a third country. Right? And and how much do y'all do between expats, between non US countries, things like that?
Francisco Solis:You're spot on, Mike. We obviously like to look at first you know, we wanna be respectful of the various countries. Right? Many countries wanna protect the the jobs for of their citizens. So we look at we first look at the talent pool in that country for those local nationals.
Francisco Solis:If we can't find that talent there for that specific role, we look within the region within APAC. And if we can't find that role, then we'll start looking at other other continents, other countries, so EU, UK, or anywhere where we have we have an office, we'll try to find that talent internally first before we go out out to the job market as well. So we really try to maximize our internal resources plus our local nationals before we look at immigration as as but we don't want immigration to be the only strategy. We wanna leverage everything else that comes along with filling that role.
Mike Coffey:So your you've got immigration strategy. And like you said, it's really immigration slash talent management, and, you know, where we're going to recruit and staff employees from. At CBRE, when y'all are looking at your talent strategy, how does it tie back into corporate strategy and and do those things tend to, you know, as corporate strategy changes, how is your immigration slash, you know, talent management strategy changing?
Francisco Solis:100%. They're all interwoven into each other, and I think that's part of the educating the the leadership. Right? So the way it works with CBRE when we're looking into a new market. Right?
Francisco Solis:So whether we have we're managing a a specific building there where we're getting a new contract with a new organization, whether it's a government entity or a new, you know, you know, 4 to 5 100, 1 100 organization, it may be it may be a new location that we don't have an entity in, that we don't have that presence that we are required to have to be able to hire people. So we really work together with our mer merchants and acquisitions team and our legal our legal teams to look at okay. We we have this potential contract in x y z country. What do we need to do to register that that that entity in that country to be able to support immigration and or just in general employment in that country first, then we that's sort of how we we really like to be in the really at the ground level of that strategy. Right?
Francisco Solis:Because what what we want to avoid is going to this country, have this client tell us they need a specific skill that we don't have internally, and have to go back and restructure that that, you know, the registration with the government and say, wait a minute. Give us no. As you know, Mike, it takes 3, 6 months, 9 months, even a year to do a country registration. We don't wanna go back to the client and say, hold on. Give us a year.
Francisco Solis:We wanna be ready. So I think for for my perspective, what we've been able to achieve here at CBRE and and many of the other organizations that I've been a part of is to really be have a a seat in the table early on to give them that insight and and the knowledge to the leadership and legal team to say, hey. This is a component that we need to consider for the future. Whether we use leverage it or not, it's a different story.
Mike Coffey:I'm I'm guessing a lot of CBRE's leadership is based in the US. Is that or North America. Is that right? Or or or is it pretty much dispersed across the country the world too?
Francisco Solis:It really is dispersed. Right? We we have Seaberry has a lot of different business units that that don't sit within the US, so we have a lot of litters leadership spread all over the place. So a lot of our our top c suite, leadership is in the US, but we have a lot of manage management directors and executive directors across every every entity across the world.
Mike Coffey:So one of the things that comes up a lot domestically here inside the US is is employers who suddenly find that they're multi state employers without intending to be the you know, they've got a remote employee who suddenly moved to Georgia or Oklahoma or wherever and employer wasn't aware of it until something probably went wrong and they got a letter from a tax office or somebody saying, hey, you pay up. And I can imagine internationally, especially some place, you know, like the EU where people transfer around a lot, there are probably similar circumstances like that. But I think, you know, I've got a friend who was traveling. I think I talked to Meredith about it last week. She's traveling to Canada to do some client training and got stopped at the border and she, you know, she was she just told him what she was doing and she didn't have a visa qualified for that and she got stopped.
Mike Coffey:How much business can generally can an executive do if you're traveling to visit sites and maybe interview people or talk to customers? What does that process look like to make sure that that you're not stepping on the toes of government regulators in another country?
Francisco Solis:Well, that's a really loaded question there, Mike, because it it Okay.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. I'm asking you to confess all your sins right here on the podcast, missus Scott.
Francisco Solis:Yeah. You know, this is a really complicated topic simply because different countries have different regulations. Right? So, you know, in the UK, you have the postal worker notification that you, you know, you have to be able to notify the government when someone's on-site doing x y z type of work. We we what what I would say is we partner very closely with our travel department in ensuring as to when an executive travels abroad.
Francisco Solis:We're talking about even up to when they're traveling, entering the international air. We we need to be able to very explicitly say, hey. This individual is traveling to this country for this many days. As you can imagine, we have retained very many tax experts to try to help us navigate through this. There isn't there isn't unfortunately, from what I've seen in in my 16 years, there isn't that one company that can give you the full service of to track this.
Francisco Solis:Right? Nobody wants to nobody's able to do not all, the work immigration or the business traveler and tax. So it's a it's really multiple providers that we were having to leverage to try to keep keep as much as compliant as we can. And I use that, you know, as it sounds, as compliant as we can because, you know, we we we we we do have you know, we wanna be able to represent a good faith effort in trying to track and maintain compliance where, you know, a lot of companies may not have the resources to even do that good faith effort. They're just sort of, you know, still tracking on the spreadsheet.
Mike Coffey:Well certainly, you know, I I travel internationally or, you know for fun. I've got family internationally and go see, you know, folks and go with my wife different places and I own my company and I'm checking email. Maybe I'm recording a podcast in the UK. You know, those kinds of things that we've had to do, just because of scheduling, you know, and sometimes you just take your chances, I guess, and, you know, but it's it's it always, you know, because I've got had this friend who went through this thing with the Canada, it always makes me a little nervous, you know, to what what, you know, you know, I'm traveling primarily for pleasure. That's what I always tell them at customs, and it's true, and nobody's ever challenged it.
Mike Coffey:But I can imagine with a larger organization with a lot more to lose, especially in the way of business relationships and complicated tax relationships and all that, you've got to be really cautious.
Francisco Solis:Yeah. 100%. I I think I think, you know, we try to keep adviser leadership to use common sense. Right? I mean, we know that there there's a very fine line.
Francisco Solis:When you get to that level of c suite executives, you're not truly doing hands on work per se. You're hosting meetings, you're meeting clients, you're replying to emails, that could be constituted mainly as a business trip. It's, you know, the so, you know, they're not creating code or or things like that. Right? And most countries give you the ability to host meetings, sign contracts, and meet with the clients.
Francisco Solis:So for the most part, from that perspective, do we it's a lot of common sense, where we just wanna you know, we we what we wanna avoid is having an executive sit in the country for more than 30 days or 2 weeks at a time, and then, you know, we we're really keep an eye on, you know, you know, the the country's regulations of, you know, 90 day you know, 90 days every 180 days. And we really try to navigate on the you know, I'm very much a risk adverse person because, of course, immigration. So we really try to navigate through that very carefully and just let them know, hey. Here's things that you need might need to consider.
Mike Coffey:So there's not even a standard as far as from country to country about how long you can be in a country to war and do some sort of work, and so you have to pay attention to it even at that level. So give give me the what's the, you know, off the top of your head, what you can think of as the shortest period that, you know, in a certain country versus the most liberal amount of time that a country model that other countries allow.
Francisco Solis:I I I think the standard the standard advice that I've seen in many companies and through a lot of benchmarking is 30 to 60 days. You know you know, 30 being the the the the safest. Right? You can be there to certain country, you know you know, in that country for a certain time. India is, you know, India's tax tax regime is extremely particular.
Francisco Solis:So anytime we have employees going to India, we tell them no more than 30 days. If you're gonna stay there beyond 30 days, you need to consult with the tax expert and and then also, you know, corporate, corporate tax team. Mexico is very pretty lenient because with Mexico, you can even go work there for a 180 days without a work visa. So, obviously, their tax, you know, regime is a little a little a bit more loose than because it's tied to that immigration. But there's the permanent establishment where the where the our corporate tax comes into play.
Francisco Solis:So we really try to advise no more than 30 days across the board. Try to set that set that you know, level set that across the organization. We we we don't like to operate in in in an exception, you know, environment. You know, if there's one exception here and there, that's fine. We don't want it to be a continuous exception request from everyone.
Mike Coffey:In permanent establishment, that that means that you've been operating there enough days, enough time that now you've got a legal footprint in that country and you in the whole organization, you need an entity. You need all of the things in order to be able to, you know, to to operate that way.
Francisco Solis:Correct. And and that's where corporate techs and and our our legal teams come into play. And, obviously, that's something that we wanna avoid, you know, if we can. If there's a need to have someone in that country beyond 30 days, you would assume that we probably have an entity. And if we have an entity, we should probably get you transferred into that entity.
Francisco Solis:So, again, again, just trying trying to be cautious. So and I think 30 days is a good amount of time to for an individual to go in, do what they need to do, and then come out. The scenario that you gave us was that you used about your personal travel, that's where it gets pretty sticky. Right? And especially when it's tied to immigration, we have a lot of foreign nationals who have to go renew their visas, abroad, and depending on the nationality, they take x, you know, x number of weeks.
Francisco Solis:Well, some some of these foreign nationals decide, hey. Well, let me take my vacation and renew my visa together. So that that's where that's where it gets really tricky because we we can't we we we can't tell them don't take vacation. Right? That's that that's not right, but we also have to tell them, look.
Francisco Solis:You need to time everything to where you're gonna be there less than 30 days. And for the most part, they're they they work with us. And, you know, during the summer months, they'll spend 30 days and then come back, and then they'll go back again to the following year. So, but it is tricky to navigate that.
Mike Coffey:And I can imagine that 8 years ago, 6 years ago, pre COVID, certainly, before the technology really came along to the extent that we have it now, it was probably a lot more necessary for leaders or even technical specialists to physically be present in a country to help a deal go through or to set up, you know, whatever it was that needed to happen with a, you know, with a real estate project. How much are y'all using technology now just to avoid that travel or avoid those, you know, some of those those circumstances, you know, that complicate the immigration status and all those things?
Francisco Solis:I mean, that that's the that's one of the benefits that that we see that we saw come out of the pandemic. Right? Being able to understand how people can work efficiently from home. Right? I mean, you see I'm at home right now.
Francisco Solis:Oh, you know, I'm sitting at home doing doing my job where I used to be in the in the office, you know, throughout all of my career. So that's the the one benefit that I see that we learn to operate from just leveraging technology. And so we really we ask our employees to justify the need to go into that country. Right? And that's sort of where we have to give that enablement to demand to the people managers who manage the teams because, unfortunately, immigration is not involved in those discussions.
Francisco Solis:But all we can do is provide the the the enablement tools for them to have those open discussions with their employees and say, hey. Look. You're requesting to go to this country. What is the justification to go into this country versus doing it doing it, from you know, just leveraging technology? What I would say is in our space, in with commercial real estate, sometimes you need that face to face.
Francisco Solis:Right? You know, when you're meeting a client, you're visiting a site. So there is a a high level or high volume of travel required for this role depending on if you're over overseeing over a project or overseeing a specific, a building. So there is that need, but where we can help, we try to advise not to travel if you don't need to.
Mike Coffey:And you know we see it in the US where foreign nationals are coming in as you know expats to us you know coming into the country and they've got cultural challenges, different management styles, all those kinds of things and their families are coming and they've you know things have to be done for those families. I imagine that's very similar internationally whether it's a US citizen going overseas or somebody coming from country a to country b anywhere. How do y'all as an organization help, you know, I guess, acculturate or if that's a word, those families to the way things work in, in these other countries?
Francisco Solis:We heavily leverage our RMC, Right? Our relocation firm to provide those services or give them that suite of services to the to the employees who are traveling permanently one way. Right? For the short term assignments, it's a little bit a bit loose. Right?
Francisco Solis:There we partner them with a local employee there. We're really focused on leveraging those services to employees who are going to be in that in that new country, whether it's, again, whether it's global in the US. We'll give we'll give them that suite of services available to make it available to them. We know that the US citizens and the culture in other countries are not always the same, as you mentioned. So there's considerations that they need to have whenever they're going there.
Francisco Solis:Make sure they're they're respectful to the culture locally there, but many of those services go through the RMC, not not directly from us.
Mike Coffey:Through their relocation firm. And so they provide a lot of that hands on stuff locally because, again, like you said, I can imagine all the regulations and all that and then all the cultural differences are just as significant to having a local boots on the ground so you've got partners all over the place who offer those things.
Francisco Solis:Correct. And and and at the at the very least, we try to make them available. Right? Understanding that we do have the local resources, our local HR teams that does you know, they have their due diligence that they need to do when bringing someone in. They they want to make them they want to make sure that they're comfortable in the new in a new country.
Francisco Solis:And so a local HR does take a big big, you know, part of this, transition, but we do have the services available through our our our relocation firm.
Mike Coffey:And let's take a quick break. Good morning. HR is brought to you by Imperative, bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. Tomorrow, August 23rd, I'm hosting a webinar entitled Background Check Mythbusters. I've set aside an hour to tackle common misconceptions and questions about employers' use of criminal history, off duty conduct, background checks, and state specific laws.
Mike Coffey:Many of the topics are things I commonly encounter in conversations with HR professionals or see posted on social media. This webinar is preapproved for an hour of recertification credit by both HRCI and SHRM. But do you have a nagging question you've never had a clear answer to or were embarrassed to ask? Send me your questions when you register for the webinar at imperativeinfo.com. And if you're listening to this episode after August 23rd, you can watch the recording of the webinar for credit for free at imperativeinfo.com.
Mike Coffey:If you're an HRCI or SHRM certified professional, this episode of Good Morning HR has been pre approved for 1 half hour of recertification credit. To obtain the recertification information, visit good morning hr.com and click on research credits. Then select episode 162 and enter the keyword expat. That's e x p a t. And if you're looking for even more recertification credit, check out the webinars page at imperativeinfo.com.
Mike Coffey:And now back to my conversation with Francisco Solis. So you're working in immigration with all these different countries and you know we hear the challenges employers have bringing foreign talent into the US and especially you know there's only a certain number of h1b visas in the lottery every year and that number hasn't changed in over 30 years. How does the US compare in your experience as far as the ability to bring foreign professional workers into the US? How does that compare to other countries? Are there are most other countries more liberal or more conservative?
Mike Coffey:And I don't mean that politically, but just, you know, more open to
Francisco Solis:it or or or or, you know, more hesitant or more, you know, bureaucratic about it.
Mike Coffey:I mean, quite honestly, I've always looked at the US
Francisco Solis:immigration as being restrictive, but the more and more that I became immersed in global immigration, it's about the same. Like, I mean, we there's countries that have quotas. You know, you x number of people that you can bring in based on how many local hires you have. Right? We we we have that in Saudi Arabia.
Francisco Solis:In the UAE, we have, you know, depending on on the the size of of your organization, you can bring x number of people. Many of these countries have a minimum salary requirement as well, just like the US. So I I I do think that they're very much the same. I think where where the US stands out is just the volume of, the volume of applicants that are trying trying to come into the US is significant. Right?
Francisco Solis:I mean, last year, there was almost 800,000 applications for the h one b. There isn't any other country that are seeing that number of applications for a single visa. Right? So imagine that's only 800 applications for the h one b. Imagine the l ones, the o ones, the j ones, the students.
Francisco Solis:So the US is bringing in and managing, you know, millions of visas a year whereas there there there are many of the other countries don't have that volume, but they have the same restrictions. And then just adding in because we touched on the UK earlier, the UK has not only is it very difficult to go in, it's very expensive. Right? So it's a year you're looking to spend on a visa for for the UK 25 to 30 grand, per visa and that depending on the size of your organization, that's very restrictive. Right?
Francisco Solis:Organizations like CBRE or other companies who have the funds to to sponsor that immigration to that country is great, but imagine mid mid level mid midsize organizations that 30, $40,000 is impactful, then that's restrictive.
Mike Coffey:And, you know, I shared earlier, I, you know, I travel a lot. I love international travel mostly because I like to eat and the food's always interesting when I go to other places, but when you've got employees that you're sending internationally, how much attention do you have to pay to unique local circumstances, you know, where, you know, whether political instability or crime things like how much do of that do you take in and factor into when you're making decisions about who to send or where to send people or whether to recruit locally, those kinds of things?
Francisco Solis:I mean, that that that is the safety of our employees is critical. Right? So that's it's just like any other organization that's those, you know, geopolitical activity is important. Understanding, you know, if we need to have similar to having the services available for employees to to transition into that country, we need to make sure that we have our safety and security protocols in place as well. You know, we need to have a next state strategy.
Francisco Solis:We need to make sure that they understand they're cognizant of what's going on in that country prior to to transferring there. But I think what we would like to look at as well is understanding the family unit that's going in. Right? If you're having a single male going into one country, you know, not saying that we we we don't consider it a high risk, but it's different than having a single female or a family with small children, completely different assessment that we need to do when we're looking at different the the different family structure. We also need to look at, and what we we tend to do is, if we have because we we wanna make sure that we're transparent and as equitable as possible.
Francisco Solis:So, you know, if we're if we're if we're transferring someone who is of the LGBTQ community, we need to take a look at what those countries what their their views are for that LGBTQ community because not every country has laws protecting them. So it's it's a whole a whole assessment that we we look at and that many organizations do the same. Right? I mean, they they wanna make sure that they are not only able to do the work there, but they're that they that their employees are able to do their work safely.
Mike Coffey:So we talked about, you know, the legal restrictions on immigration, and setting up corporate structures and all that and safety issues, technology. What other factors if when CBRE or any, you know, large employer is considering either opening another location in another country or or hiring talent in another country, what are other key considerations that you, you know, things you have to check off the list to make sure that we're making a a well informed decision?
Francisco Solis:What I would say is and and I'll touch on this one. This is a a project that I did on my organization prior to CBRE. And, like, what I think is what I would hope that many organizations replicate, we partnered with our talent acquisition team and our legal teams, and we'd we we looked at x number of countries that we were looking that hold that had a specific talent pool that we're looking for. In this particular instance, we're looking for software engineers. And we and we wanted to look at software engineers in Europe.
Francisco Solis:And our talent acquisition teams went out there, did an assessment into 3 different countries. Then they once they they assessed the 3 countries that they wanted to look at, they brought them over to the immigration team. We did an assessment from the immigration perspective. Right? We wanted to we wanted to understand how quickly and how easily can we process immigration and maximize the talent pool for that country.
Francisco Solis:We ended up going to Ireland because we knew we could hire, in Ireland. You know, we can bring in someone in in 10 days. We can there was a high concentration of software engineers in that country. So we wanted so what I would say is you have to look at it as available resources in that country, plus the ease of hiring and bringing in someone as well. So we were able to hire almost 200 foreign nationals going into Ireland in in in as little as 4 weeks.
Francisco Solis:That that that was a massive hiring event. And and you don't and imagine if we had selected one of the other ones that, again, we the immigration turnaround was much longer or had a higher restrictions on on certain requirements, it it it would have impact our hiring event. It would have maybe elongated that 6 months to to a year to to bring it in. So I think just taking a look at holistically on the whole entire need, you know, some countries you need to consider, depending if you're doing a technology, depending on if you're a tech company, you need to take a look at if, you know, your expert licenses, making sure that that technology can be produced in that country. You need to take a look at, you know, the the again, the talent local talent, the ease of immigration, compensation structure.
Francisco Solis:There's workers councils in some of these countries where, you know, that it gives additional rights to the employees there. So let's say, you know, Germany, their workers council in Germany is extremely, extremely protective of workers' rights. So you terminate someone there, you're you're gonna have to have a, you know, their termination may not be instant. It may be 3 months, 4 months down the line that that you'll have to cover. So there's a lot of different things.
Francisco Solis:Again, entry and exit requirements that you need to consider when looking at new countries.
Mike Coffey:Interesting. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Francisco. I appreciate you joining us, for this half hour. We've run it out.
Francisco Solis:Oh, wow. Well, Mike, thank you so much. This was great. This is, I love talking immigration. I love talking about what we do.
Francisco Solis:It's something that I'm very passionate about, and we probably could have kept going for a couple more hours before we need to took a break and reconvened and kept talking. So, what I would say I'll I'll do a small plug to the Texas SHRM conference. Hopefully hopefully, if you're listening to this, you can make it out to to the conference. It's a great conference, here in, in in Houston. I know there's gonna be a lot of great sessions aside from the one that we're gonna be a part of.
Francisco Solis:There's gonna be some, employment law sessions. There's gonna be some navigating through HR HR sessions, and some of the speakers that are gonna be there are gonna be amazing including yourself. Right, Mike? So hopefully, if you can make it, try go go to Texas SHRM on September 19th.
Mike Coffey:That's perfect. Thank you for the plug. And you, listener, can get more information about the Texas SHRM Global Conference on September 19th at texashrmglobalconference.org, and the link will also be in the show notes. Thank you for listening. You can comment on this episode or search our previous episodes at goodmorninghr.com or on Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube.
Mike Coffey:And don't forget to follow us wherever you get your podcasts. Rob Upchurch is our technical producer, and you can reach him at robmakespods.com. And thank you to Imperative's marketing coordinator, Mary Anne Hernandez, who keeps the trains running on time. And I'm Mike Coffey. As always, don't hesitate to reach out if I can be of service to you personally or professionally.
Mike Coffey:I'll see you next week. And until then, be well, do good, and keep your chin up.