Pete Wright:
Welcome to How To Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from TruStory FM. Today, Systemic Toaster Inequality.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show everybody, I'm Seth Nelson. As always, I'm here with my good friend Pete Wright. There's nothing different in the law when it comes to divorce in a white couple compared to a Black couple, but the law is only part of the story. Mike Easterling is co-host of Just Being Brothers, and a retired television producer. He's twice divorced, father of two, grandfather of two, and he joins us today to talk about the cultural, and societal stigma attached to divorce in the Black community. Mike, welcome to the toaster.
Mike Easterling:
Hey, thank you. Glad to be here.
Pete Wright:
Mike, you're a fascinating guy. I'm excited to talk to you about this. You came to us, you're a co-host, co-founder of the Just Being Brothers podcast, which is a thing you seem to have landed on after an extraordinary career in television, and your own history of divorce. And so we want to talk about a couple of things in the context of this conversation with you.
Pete Wright:
The first is, as you have been saying yourself, you're an old dude and there's this whole angle of gray divorce, and how that has impacted you. And we've talked about gray divorce a little while back on the show, it's been a long time, I'm curious to get your perspective. And the other is Black divorce, what role does race play in divorce for you as a guy divorced twice? But we want to talk about that experience, because we know the law is just one side of the divorce equation. The culture, community, friends, family, we want to talk about that. So why don't we start with a little bit of your divorce history. Is that a good place to start?
Mike Easterling:
History, makes it sound like it's been ongoing for years.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right. You have a 45-year career in divorce.
Mike Easterling:
I'd rather call it my two divorces. But let me tell you, the first one probably has very little to do with race, which probably has some. And that is I was just too darn young to be married to anyone of any color, at any time, at 24 years old going on 20. Some of that may have some racial over underpinnings because certainly I had two great parents, but maybe they didn't have the best marriage. So you modeled what you see. We didn't have people throwing stuff at each other, and the cops coming to the door. But there's a special subliminal thing that goes along at some marriage, that I look back now as an adult, just didn't have that wasn't there to model. So in that case by the time it happened, married eight years, so in my thirties that marriage was just a marriage that shouldn't have been.
Mike Easterling:
Fast-forward, about 8 or 9 years from there... yeah, '88, 7 years from there. I was married again, and stayed married for 28 years. That what I would say was a marriage that was good until it was bad, and then it was over. And I think it depended, a lot of it came down to a couple of things, not for me particularly, but the biggest thing is stress on African-American men in the country, day to day.
Mike Easterling:
There are things that we go through that are invisible to other people. Even an educated person like me, educated persons like some of my friends, they're invisible things, and they're stresses, however. You ask yourself, why is high blood pressure high in African American men, but not in African men? What's up with that? The stress of being an African American. That's why when they come here, their blood pressure goes up because once you leave Africa, you become an African American.
Mike Easterling:
Even in Africa you're on your own country, even with the stresses that there may be there, but here it's different. And so that starts there, that wasn't my case. Mine was basically the other thing, which is a lot of women, and I had a wonderful wife, both of them. But a lot of women find themselves also growing up in households where there's only the mom, dad is gone. So mom becomes dad and mom. Those women sometimes will say, "I'm going to make sure I have a man who's going to be in my house, and help me raise my kids, et cetera." And they imagine that they know what a strong man looks like, but they really don't. And so when someone does come in, they're strong. That can sometimes be off-putting.
Pete Wright:
I got to dig into that a little bit. What does it mean, a strong man? What is that stereotype?
Mike Easterling:
Yeah. Somebody who stays with his family, who does the right thing, who isn't in and out of jail, every day tries to progress, and be better for himself, and for the family. Not lazy, it doesn't fit those stereotypes. On the other hand, it's also able to step back, and here's what it gets tough. And especially if you have an educated wife, or a business wife, let that person shine also. And sometimes that doesn't happen. I just looked at some stats, African American women are more apt to marry below their status because due to everything from incarceration, to who knows what lack of education, there aren't a lot of men. There are less men that are available. And just because somebody has the same academic background as you do, doesn't mean that that's the person for you. But we usually start with commonalities.
Seth Nelson:
Mike, let me try to understand what you're saying. I want to make sure I'm understanding this right.
Mike Easterling:
Sure.
Seth Nelson:
You have an educated African American woman, goes to college, gets a degree in whatever that might be, advanced degree potentially. But inherently based on numerous societal and historical reasons, but currently today, there would be less African American men with that same education. And therefore if that person, that woman wants to marry someone from the African American community just mathematically, statistically there's less men to choose from.
Mike Easterling:
On certain status, yes. We'll just call him the societal reasons, we're not here to break that down today. Coming after that then a man sometimes knows he's going into, and this isn't in every case, but a man knows he's going into a relationship where sometimes he's not the main breadwinner, she is. Right away, that's a little kick in the old nuts'.
Seth Nelson:
I got a quick story on that. My father was a university professor, PhD in psychology, taught industrial organization psychology, not a clinician. And in the early '70s or so, my mom went to him in, it was probably around '76, no actually earlier than that, like '73, or earlier. And said, "I want to go to law school." And said to my dad, "Are you going to be okay, if one day I make more money than you?" And my father says, "Am I going to be okay with it? I'm counting on it." So they had a different view on that. But that in the early seventies-
Mike Easterling:
Yeah, that's when it first began.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. So that is not attributable as Pete I think was about to say to the African American community. It's our society is historically the men were the breadwinners. That's certainly changing.
Mike Easterling:
Exactly. But when you get a situation when it's harder for you to be the breadwinner, it's harder for you to advance along the road to success toward the breadwinner. When you're getting passed over for promotions, and your wife, because of the old double minority thing. Especially back in the '80s and '90, it's getting promotion because now we have a minority vice president, and we have a female vice president. That begins either way to ego, and especially when you know it's not you, it's something else. Now, it's not always something else, like we say, everything's not racial.
Mike Easterling:
Sometimes you're just not that good, except that [inaudible 00:08:39]. We know the difference. I've been passed over for it for jobs, and I've gotten jobs, and I haven't been passed over, I think I've been passed over once. The other times there were better people than me, period. I knew the people, they were white people, but in my mind they were better. I was pleased to compete, but I knew that they had the upper hand. But when you feel that you're always being passed over, and you've got these other stresses of just walking down the street, something could happen to you, by people who are supposed to protect you. That's one thing you guys probably never feel.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, I think that's the point. It's, at some point there's this vicious cycle of the Black experience of dealing with the Black experience. And that's why I want to go into this conversation with your perspective on dealing with the law. And we're not necessarily talking about the other incredibly important issues going on as decided right now, police violence, and dealing with all of those issues. We're just talking about dealing with the law as a Black couple, getting a divorce. Are there negative stereotypes that I would never have to consider? Are there negative impressions of the divorce process that I would never see because of what color I am?
Mike Easterling:
Not that I know of to be straight with. That's one place that, once it's divorced time, met your lawyer. Now, the first time, my lawyer was a college baseball teammate. Second time I had a white lawyer, that I knew from Greater Baltimore Association Leadership, Baltimore. And basically it came down to the same thing. In the community, however, there was a time when that was totally frowned upon.
Pete Wright:
Divorce?
Mike Easterling:
You stay, you stay in marriage, you stick it out. Not just for the kids, you stick it out totally. If you don't, you're weak, you're not-
Pete Wright:
Because it's a moral weakness, right?
Mike Easterling:
It's a moral weakness. Especially at the time when we as a people were more closely aligned with the church. The civil rights movement came out of the church, everything came out of the church. Education came out of the church, many of the African American colleges, HBCU, of which I'm a proud HBCU grad. Howard University, but some of the smaller ones came out of the church working with both Black and white people.
Seth Nelson:
Mike, to understand this. Because so much of the historical African experience, and movements were surrounded by faith, and from the faith movements then that makes divorce even harder. And we've talked on this show, Pete, about what happens with when divorce couples are very active in their church. Our guests were saying, "Look, we're a special class or a lower class. They won't talk about divorce even though we're here in the church." And those are people that have been remarried. And Mike, you're saying people would stay together because of the societal pressures of the church.
Mike Easterling:
In the African American community. Yes.
Seth Nelson:
Does that then perpetuate the experience of those children who model, as you say, what they see? And then maybe they're going to end up in a marriage that isn't necessarily what's best.
Mike Easterling:
That can be. And we'll talk about education. Education frees you from that. Let's go back from the '70s to the '80s as the opportunities for education expanded, walls were broken down, people began to experience a new America. In which divorce itself began to be like, "Well, maybe that's not such a bad thing." We began to see movie stars began to get divorced. The fact that someone couldn't do it anymore, "We just can't do it anymore." People were like, "Maybe that's okay."
Mike Easterling:
And of course that comes to the Black community, really releasing the Black men from some of the pressure that he was feeling, and given the Black woman a chance to maybe start anew. Sometimes people starting into marriages, and this is Black and white, but I'm certainly in the Black community, because there's a baby on the way. Not because there's any love there, not because there's any education.
Seth Nelson:
I hear it all the time. And this is what the kids say, Mike, they say this, they'll say, "I stayed married for the kids." And when those children get to be adults, they'll tell their now adult parent, they're an adult talking to an adult parent. "I wish you would've done it sooner. We all knew you guys were unhappy. We all knew that there was fighting in the house." They stayed for the wrong reason.
Mike Easterling:
You cannot hide, they've been studying you from the day they were born. You can't hide. And my sons didn't know, and we did the same thing. First of all, it was touching, but it was good. Got crazy once he left the house, this has nothing to do with Black or white. But we were late parents of my second son, I was 42 when he was born. So, being late parents, we put all our love into him. And when he went off to school, and he's doing very well, we were like, "Okay, so who are you again? Do I know you?"
Seth Nelson:
That's right. That happens a lot in all couples. When there's huge changes in the life, that's when things happen.
Mike Easterling:
The other thing about African American divorce, it's something that happens at the lower level, no money to make things right, can't take a loving vacation, there's nothing. And all that, does the man feel worse and worse. And one person finally decides, "I can't take this, and I'm gone." Which makes the man feel even worse. And so I think the biggest part comes from the stress on the African American male, more than anything else.
Mike Easterling:
Number one, is the stress on the African American male day to day. Even a guy like me have never been arrested, never been arrested. Speeding tickets, and those things, but I still feel it, man. When I step out, "God, I hope nobody thinks that I'm doing this, saying this." It's hard to explain, but it's like if you guys were all of a sudden, there was a boogeyman behind you all the time. In your work, in your driving, in your education, in your play, in your marriage, there's always something that makes you go like...
Seth Nelson:
Looking over your shoulder.
Mike Easterling:
"Is there something behind me? Is somebody watching me? Somebody waiting for me?" Until that pressure's there, you go to the place where you should get away from that, home. If you've got a wife that works at a higher level, sometimes that makes you feel a little bit inferior. "How was your day?" "Mine was sames. How is yours?" "Hey, we did this, we did this. The president of the university came down, and gave me an award. I think it'll be going to be up for a promotion." And you're doing the same thing, you're driving a bus. Nothing wrong with that, but compared to your wife maybe who works as an administrator at the hospital, that's stressful. That's stressful for anybody, but more stressful for people of color because they know their opportunities to improve that are less.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. It's interesting you said, too, about a financial disparity sometimes. Because unlike in a criminal case where the state's required to give you a defense attorney, a public defender. There's no requirement for the state to give you anything in a civil case, which is what divorce falls under. And the same issues in a lower socioeconomic divorce are there for a high wage earner, and higher status, but the problem is access to the courts. And I'm going to just tell it like it is here, Pete. It's because the lawyers are so expensive.
Pete Wright:
Sure.
Mike Easterling:
That's true.
Seth Nelson:
So, I'll have some of the exact same legal issues in a case that we're arguing over $10,000 or a different case arguing about 10 million. The same issues, the same concepts, relatively the same fact patterns. And people can say, "Well, how could that be 10 grand versus 10 million?" Well, if we're talking about how finances were handled on a house, and the equity in one house is 10,000 and the equity in the other house is 10 million, that's how you get there. But it's not viable, or good business, to pay lawyers to argue over 10 grand. Where it might be worth it arguing over 10 million, because of the cost of doing business.
Mike Easterling:
Cost of doing business is the same.
Seth Nelson:
That's right. Exactly. But the problem is, that 10,000 is all the money in the world to that couple. And they want you to fight for them. And they want to bring that same legal issue. You look at them, and say, "It's not enough to fight about." But to them, it's their hard-earned money. It hits to what I think Mike is talking about, "Hey, just because I don't have enough to pay, it's still me." And maybe it beats them down that their issue isn't worth arguing about because the finance is where the higher socioeconomic class is, and they really don't get access to courts then.
Mike Easterling:
Exactly. When I got divorced, access to funds. And there's another thing, and this dovetail into a gray divorce. And that is the old thing in addition, and this goes back to when, I said, the church was involved, and religion was involved. There's a thing, I don't know about other communities, but in our community you're like, "Man, when you look at the cost of hiring a Seth Nelson or anybody else." You go like, "It's cheaper to keep her."
Seth Nelson:
I've heard that saying.
Mike Easterling:
Yep. But that's where you sometimes end up, when somebody goes out on a stretcher, because of that stress. And people go, "Man, why didn't you just walk away, dude?" "God, I got four kids, man, I'm making 1750 over at Armco Steel, she's staying home with the kids. I'm trying to get this stuff done with 35, $40,000. I can't just walk away of my kids."
Seth Nelson:
That's right.
Mike Easterling:
So when divorce comes to people like that, it's because it's the best thing. The next step would be something that's maybe not good. Why can't you just handle that? I have other stresses, stresses that I have outside when I come home. I have stresses that I have inside, that I wish I could explain to you guys what it felt like. But like I said, the best way I can say it is there's just a boogeyman. And even when the boogeyman is not there, guys, and I'm not going to just say lower income Black people. Even it's not there, we feel it.
Seth Nelson:
Mike. The thing I've learned the most, that I've never thought of, what I've learned from you today, is the stresses on the African American community, based on the society that we are living in. Doesn't just go away when you get home, and you're within the four walls of your home, there's the stresses there. Because to your point I thought, "Okay, you're in your home, you're having a meal." Maybe those stresses aren't there, but I always tell Pete, and we've heard it, I tell people, "Live your life, not your divorce." But your divorce creeps in every day. Those stressors are still with you even when you're home safe within your four walls. And that then negatively impacts that relationship.
Mike Easterling:
The other reason that drives it, guys, is that a lot of us have a cultural taboo against getting help, getting counseling. Okay, we're getting better as a race about that. I'll give you the tip, we laugh out of those of us who have moved along as far as our sophistication in that area. But when someone would've said to me, "Mike." Back in the day, "You need to go talk to somebody." "Man, I ain't crazy. Man, I need no help. Don't tell me I need help. Don't give me more stuff. You're already telling me I'm inferior out here on the job. I got to be careful when I'm driving down the street. If I approach a policeman to help me, he might think that I'm the villain."
Mike Easterling:
We've seen cops come to break up fights, and who's the first guy they grabbed? And people are going, "No, it's not him, it's that kid." The cops are locking up. That's every day. "So, now you're coming. You tell me now I need somebody else. You're telling me I'm weak again. I'm not going for it." I'd rather walk away. That attacks my mandate. We're past that, but not way past it.
Pete Wright:
I think that's a really interesting one. When you talk about, and let's just say, the personal cultural recovery that comes after divorce. And you talk, you were married 8 years, your first time. And then even with all of the cultural baggage, even with the boogeyman that's sitting on your shoulder, you were ready to get married again. Given everything you're talking about here, I can't help but think, "Why was a second marriage a good option?" Given everything that stands against you.
Mike Easterling:
And you are white, well, you should talk about these things. And even though one of the reasons I'm not married is because I didn't have a real communicative wife, in the beginning we were like most young people. But we talk about, "What about this? What about that in society? What about our kids? Where are we going to live?" I was married most of my time in Baltimore when I was working in TV there. And we knew we were not going to be living in Baltimore, because schools become important. Okay, well now we got to go to a place where there's better schools, which is usually the better neighborhoods, which are usually predominantly white because of the things we talked about in the beginning, opportunity, et cetera. Generational wealth, et cetera. Most of us don't have generational wealth. So we talk about those things.
Mike Easterling:
But the other thing is the society has set up for two. I've been divorced 6, 8 years, and it's tough out here for an old guy by himself. Society is set up for two people from the tax base, et cetera. So it's a smart thing to do. Just because you're in a situation where you have more challenges doesn't mean that you won't take that challenge, being having to do more to get the same thing. Having to protect yourself more than other people. By the time you're 25, 30, 40 years old, "Oh, that's nothing special. That's life." That's been your life since you're like 4 years old. When the little girl told me at age 4, "You can't come to my birthday party because you're Colored." 4 years old. Not in Memphis, not in Raleigh, not in Mobile, Brooklyn, New York.
Mike Easterling:
Which I already knew I was brown, but I had to go ask my mom why that mean I couldn't go to the birthday party. So at 4 years old, my mom had to sit me down, and say, "This is how life is, and this is how life's going to be." 4 years old, didn't even go to school. I wasn't even at school yet, but I was learning about race, because my parents had to teach me that. Just like you have to teach your kids to look both ways before they cross the street. And some people say, "You're teaching your kids to hate white people." "No, we're just teaching my kids to know what could happen." I'm not teaching my kids to hate cars because I'm telling to look both ways before they cross. I'm not teaching them to hate cars, just how to look out to across the street."
Pete Wright:
How do you unravel that in your head, man? How do you unravel that to just get help for yourself enough to be able to recover from divorce, recover from the stereotypes, and the bias to be able to show strength, and live your life?
Mike Easterling:
Some people never do, you saw the guy in Michigan State. Something that Black people, we used to say, "We never do mass killings." We were so proud of that. If we kill somebody, is somebody we know, we got to grudge with him. But now, we're walking into places and just shooting up people. It's that stress, whatever stress is on the guy who killed those kids in Buffalo, the guy who killed the people in Atlanta, ours is just multiplied. How do you do it? That's a great question, Pete.
Mike Easterling:
Friends who are very similar, friends who've gone through divorce, friends who have the same stresses. We just talked to one another. There's a book called, Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together at the Lunch Table? Some title like that. And after I stopped doing TV, I did some speaking with Fred Pryor, I also do some speaking myself on DEI. And that question, is because it's a chance for them to stop this charade that they have to have to exist if they're not in an all-Black school, and be themselves.
Mike Easterling:
So that's why sometimes we have parties, and stuff, and people go, "How you guys party so much and stuff." It's, "Life is on you." That's our outlet. And so we talk about this, we talk about, This happened to me." "That happened to me." Sometimes it's so silly we laugh at it, other times it makes people angry. But that's just our lives. These things are just our lives. And so the same as divorces or for anybody else, it's tougher. Because women feel this, also. We keep talking about the men, but women also feel these same stresses. Walk into a place with a big fur purse. "You must be stealing."
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. But Mike, I want to go back to something on this, because I think it's vitally important. We've talked a lot of mental health professionals here. Am I understanding you correctly, in the African American community there's a stigma about getting help? We're going to get mental health treatment that is starting to get eroded away.
Mike Easterling:
Yes. My son, 33 years old, he goes to a therapist, and he got no real problem. He said, "Dad, I just go to him and talk to."
Seth Nelson:
Right. Go get a check-up.
Mike Easterling:
I'm a black guy in Corporate America, and I tell him, "I need to talk."
Seth Nelson:
Good for him.
Mike Easterling:
He didn't get that from me, because I never talked to anybody. I was that ignorant, or uninformed, or sucked up in my culture, but I ain't talking to nobody man. Many times those guys are white people. Not as much now, but back when I was younger, I ain't talking no white dude about my business, man. I just wouldn't do it. What would they know? There are more young African American therapists now, and counselors for people to talk to. And that's me. I think is one reason that [inaudible 00:26:50].
Mike Easterling:
Not to mention that we're more educated than we were one generation ago, two generations ago. And we realize there's nothing wrong with seeing somebody, any more than there's something wrong with seeing somebody about a physical illness. The mind, also, can get out of things as well. But for us, it was all, if you go to see anybody about anything, you must be crazy. You can't handle your own business, you need somebody to tell you about how to... "I don't need anybody to tell me how to run my marriage." Yes you do. You just don't want to admit it. Yes you do. We just not gotten to that point where we go, "Yeah, you're right. I do."
Seth Nelson:
Other than Pete, I don't know anyone that needs to... and everyone I know-
Pete Wright:
Where are you going with this?
Seth Nelson:
It's a compliment.
Pete Wright:
Okay. All right.
Seth Nelson:
Other than Pete, everybody I know, needs to know how to communicate better. Pete's a fabulous communicator.
Pete Wright:
Oh, thank you Seth.
Mike Easterling:
That's good man.
Pete Wright:
I got one more question before we get to wrapping up, Mike. You're father of two, grandfather of two.
Mike Easterling:
Soon to be three.
Pete Wright:
Soon to be three? Congratulations.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. And by that he means a grandchild, not another father, Pete. I want to be very clear about that.
Mike Easterling:
The lawyer is going to also make-
Seth Nelson:
That's right.
Pete Wright:
If I had a bell Mike.
Mike Easterling:
Even I got two great guys, my sons, thank Lord. Two great guys. Never incarcerated. He's with the police, the baby boys of West Point grad. I'm one of those guys who beat that, those things we're talking about.
Pete Wright:
That's what I'm curious about. As you think about, have you reflected on the lessons that you've learned in watching your kids that have been passed on about how you deal with relationships, marriage relationships, partner relationships and what they've learned from you.?
Mike Easterling:
That whole it takes [inaudible 00:28:32] thing is really true. I had great friends, fraternity brothers, college friends that my sons also were around. He had five or six uncles that were not my brothers, uncle Bob, uncle John, uncle Ron. But they were part of that, because you can pick the people, say, you can pick to be in your family, but you just can't pick your relatives.
Pete Wright:
In fact, you should pick your family. Especially, because you can't pick your relatives.
Mike Easterling:
Right. I've got relatives that aren't close to me as my family, and I have people that are not my relative, that are real close to my family. So we had those good, positive people. It was like, "Talk to us about anything." So I also, it's hard to say, "Those folks there, you need to stay away from those people. They have a wrong message." "Yeah, but Black people do that." They're like, "No, I don't like the message. Don't like when I talk to their mom and dad." So we put our kids on a straightened out.
Mike Easterling:
I'm a military kid, and my dad was a military guy. So excuses, no. Racism, if we ever accused any of the teacher, I went to Catholic school, if we have accused a sister of doing something that we thought about Color, and mom went up to the school and it wasn't. Then I need to probably find myself someplace else to live, because it's not going to be. So we weren't allowed to make those excuses. We were told to work around those. Lately you want to get gray divorce real quickly. Someone asked me, "Why you are getting divorced at 63? It's a long time, you're 63 years old" And my answer was, "I don't know how long I'm going to live." God gives a day, a week, or a year. I want it to be great.
Mike Easterling:
I also love, and though maybe not in love anymore with my wife, and I don't want her, and she's mother, my child. I don't want her to have a miserable life. And if she does have it with somebody besides me, people are living longer. I'm on the dating site, 70-year-olds, 75 years old. This girlfriend looking good still. We're living longer, we're healthy longer. And there's a lot of life left to live just because somebody was married for 50 years. I was married for 50 years. I guarantee all 40 were not wonderful. They had to push through 5 or 10 years of maybe, "Man, I don't know what I'm doing here, but I'm going to hang in." Depending on your own self-image, and how you feel about your life as a Black man, especially. That's all I can speak of, that may make a decision whether you stay or go. And Seth, you see more grate divorce than just in general than when you started your career?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. We've talked about gray divorce on the show. I'm a stats guy, and a numbers guy. So we have our own internal stats, and we have more gray divorces. It's not uncommon, it's just not spoken about as much. Usually, because people always want to hear the dirt, and talk about fighting over the kids. In a lot of gray divorces, as you pointed out, the kids are out of the house. But a lot of what you said rings true with a lot of my friends, and practitioners that I talked to about gray divorce. Exactly what you said is, "We've come this far. I don't know how much longer I have on this earth, and I want to do something different with my life right now." That's what they do.
Mike Easterling:
That was a generation to go. And I can look by tell the pictures. You guys are all at least 20 years younger than I am, pretty close. Generation to go, guys. No, you'd have been sitting, considered weak. You stay there that, you make your bed to sleep, sleep in it. That is the dumbest thing, then it wasn't. But if you look back more, that is who continued who makes the mistake, and says, "I'm going to pay for it by wallowing in it." When there is an option. As my first divorce lawyer told me, I remember I was there early. He was there early. We were waiting, and I was moaning a little bit, ashamed of it. And he said, "Young man, that is why they put erases on pencils." Never forget that guy.
Pete Wright:
That needs to be on a shirt. Oh, man!
Mike Easterling:
He said, "People make mistakes. If you make a mistake in the school you decide to go to, you changed schools. You make a mistake in the job that you don't particularly like, you change jobs. You don't like your neighborhood, then you move." But when it comes to something as important as who you live the rest of your life with, it's convoluted not to cut into your money, Seth.
Seth Nelson:
No, man. I'm good, I'm good. But I'm telling you this, I am happily engaged, and I am going to give my fiance a pen.
Mike Easterling:
Congratulations on your engagement.
Seth Nelson:
Thank you.
Pete Wright:
Hey, on that note, I got to tell you, Mike, you're fantastic man. Thank you for coming and hanging out with us, and giving us a little bit of your wisdom. I am a happy subscriber to your show. Just give people the short and skinny of what your podcast is all about.
Mike Easterling:
Just Being Brothers is really one of those Mickey Rooney and Judy Garland, "Hey, let's have a podcast." Came out of the fact that for 70 years I've been talking to this guy. Name Steve. We're both big personality guys. He's a little bit bigger than mine, I would say. But we're two guys who just talk about anything as brothers would do. You guys are just listening in on a couple of guys talking. Sometimes we know what we're talking about sometimes we're not, certain times it's strictly opinion. We talk about anything. It's more entertainment. I'm not going to help you lose 30 pounds in 30 days. I'm not going to help you increase your net bottom line, we're not doing that. Every now and then while you're driving along you can just put us on, get good conversation, and get some laughter along the way.
Mike Easterling:
We never make fun of things that are serious. Got one coming up on guilt and shame. Those things, even though we maybe jab each other at, and jab at each other because we're brothers, we take those topics very seriously. But we're just a couple of guys trying to entertain people, and give them something else to listen to. And also approach as many topics as we can from the Black perspective with a different perspective. Everything isn't racism, everybody is not out to get you. Look at things more than we as Black people because we live as a group.
Mike Easterling:
One person does something screwy, that's all of them. Okay. If one person does something great, that's only one of them. Okay. So, we live as a group, we socialized a group, so we want to make sure that we don't all have that mob thing. I'll be real quick. We want to talk about things differently, and we want to do a lot of fun, and like brothers do, so you hear me take shots at him, he'll take shots at me. I tell him he's the good-looking one, but I'm the smart one. Those things that we do.
Seth Nelson:
Mike, I know that. Let me tell you, when I started a podcast, my dad said, "Boy, you got a face for a podcast." So I'm with you. We appreciate you coming on.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, we sure do, Mike. Thank you so much.
Mike Easterling:
I hope I've been good for you.
Pete Wright:
You've been great, man. This is fantastic. All the best to you, best on your podcast. We'll put the link in the show notes. And now we got to turn it to listener questions.
Pete Wright:
Listener question, Seth. We've got a listener question. This one comes from Cass. Cass says, "You've talked about conflict check on the show, but are there any situations when you would work with someone who has been in touch with my ex? I love an attorney in my area, but I think my ex has already reached out. He went with a different attorney. So does that mean it's fair game for this other attorney to work with me? Anything I can say to make that easier for this new attorney to say yes to me?" What do you think?
Seth Nelson:
Nope,
Pete Wright:
That was so fast. It's like you didn't even have to think about it.
Seth Nelson:
I wish it was different. In Florida, check your local jurisdiction, but once I talk to a potential client, I am conflicted out of that case.
Pete Wright:
Wow.
Seth Nelson:
Because the attorney-client relationship starts when the client believes it does.
Pete Wright:
When the client believes it does.
Seth Nelson:
That's right. Here's what they teach you in law school. A guy runs into your office, covered in blood, holding a knife, and he says, "I killed him. But it was self-defense." And you look up from your desk, and you say, "I'm a real estate lawyer."
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
And now you get called to testify saying, "What did he say? Did he say he did it?" And it's attorney-client privilege.
Pete Wright:
Really?
Seth Nelson:
Yep. If he knows you're a lawyer, he comes in, he goes, "Are you a lawyer?" "Yes" "I killed him." Boom! If he believes that there was an attorney-client relationship at that moment in time, then there was one.
Pete Wright:
Man!
Seth Nelson:
So that is why it's so critical. I get calls all the time, "Can you meet with me and my spouse? We got all basically worked out. We want someone to work with both of us, we don't want to "lawyer up." And I said, "I wish I could. I can't. I'm restricted by the Florida Bar rules, where it's an inherent conflict of interest, and therefore I'm not allowed to do that.
Pete Wright:
Serious about that. They are serious.
Seth Nelson:
If you think that your spouse called a lawyer, it's pretty easy to find out because the lawyer won't tell you that they called. You call, and you say, "I want to talk to the lawyer." They should run a conflict check, and then they'll say, "I'm sorry, I can't talk to you." Don't ask them why. We all know why. Because there's a conflict.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Okay. Well, that makes it easy.
Seth Nelson:
So Pete, there is good news.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
I know I was pretty emphatic.
Pete Wright:
Emphatic, is right.
Seth Nelson:
The person that holds the privilege can waive the privilege.
Pete Wright:
Okay. So, what you're saying, you could go to your ex, and say, "Can you let go of this?"
Seth Nelson:
This listener could go call the lawyer. The lawyer could say, "I have a conflict." Then you can go to your former spouse, or whoever the other party is, and say, "Look, we're getting divorced. I called this one lawyer, they said they had a conflict. Which my understanding is you talk to them. Do you have any problem with me having them as my lawyer? Would you waive that conflict?"
Pete Wright:
And that should be okay, right? They say, "Yes. You can have them." And what does that look like? They have to call the firm, and the spouse has to call the firm and say, "I waive my privilege."
Seth Nelson:
If I get that phone call, I am blanketing that file.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
And when that person that originally called me, that didn't hire me then gets a lawyer, I'm going to disclose. I spoke to them. It's my understanding they're going to waive the privilege. We're going to do a signed document that we're going to file in court.
Pete Wright:
Easy enough.
Seth Nelson:
Now, you know me, Pete.
Pete Wright:
I do.
Seth Nelson:
I can be a little competitive sometimes. If that person waives the privilege, you know I'm going to crush them in court. Because they didn't freaking hire me. Forget reasonableness, forget settlement, let's take them to court.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. That's right. All right, we're going full War of the Roses. I get it.
Seth Nelson:
Just joking.
Pete Wright:
Okay. We do have another question. This comes from anonymous, and it's an interesting question, and I think also a request. "If you've not already covered this on another episode, it would be great to do a whole episode on all the common misconceptions about divorce in Florida." Now, the listener goes on to list out a number of misconceptions that they have heard in their experience about divorce in Florida. And it's a great list, of great questions.
Seth Nelson:
Tell me the list real quick.
Pete Wright:
Here are a couple of them. "If I buy a car in my name, then it's not marital property, even if I'm married. If I own my own business, I can just stop paying myself to avoid child support. I'm easily going to be able to get sole custody of my kids. I'm entitled to an attorney in my divorce, just like in criminal law, and many others." Says the listeners. We've started this list of misconceptions. We could bang them out one by one here, but maybe we should just level this up. Let's do a thing.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. I will always talk about check your local jurisdiction. This is information that people need to know. This is a great question/suggestion. And I know I'm a lawyer, I know I'm not a judge. But request granted, Pete, let's do another show.
Pete Wright:
Powerful. Okay. It's happening. It's for real. We're going to get it in the schedule. So listener, you know who you are, because you wrote the question. Standby. And that, as they say, is that, thank you everybody for downloading and listening to this show. We sure appreciate you. And thanks to our fantastic guest, Mike Easterling. I learned a lot, and I hope you did too. On behalf of Mike, and Seth Nelson, America's favorite divorce attorney, I'm Pete Wright. And we'll catch you next week right here on How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Speaker 4:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce & Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split A Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright, is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce & Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
