Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
Welcome back to Essential Dynamics. This is Reed McColm, your favorite guest host. And I today, I have in the studio with me somebody I really admire and, can stand the sight of. His name is mister Derek Hudson. Derek, are you here?
Derek:Happy to be here, Reed. Thanks for joining me again. This is it's great to have you back.
Reed:Well, I'm I'm delighted, and I'm glad that we're talking about things because the last time I was here, just a an episode ago, I felt like, we had a we had too much material to cover. I really wanted to know how you've been doing this season and what you've learned. And you've really packaged packaged your thoughts into a cohesive and understandable group of of thoughts. And and one thing we got to in the last episode that I don't think we really covered much was, the idea of teamwork and how, how it's necessary to have a guide. And, I want you to expound on that a little bit.
Reed:Tell me more.
Derek:There's lots there's lots to say about guides. So, let's go let's go back to, yes, or last last week's episode, last episode, was we talked about being stuck. Yeah. And one of the things we talked about was that the easy problems or even the hard but manageable problems get managed to get solved. So what you're left with is ones that are either harder to see, harder to get out of, and so those that's where we get stuck.
Derek:You know, we're we're bouncing along just fine until we get, you know, something gets wedged, and then it stays with us. It's stuck. We're stuck. So one of the ways to look at that is, I guess I could go this way, Albert Einstein, is attributed to him, I love his quotation. The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the level of thinking we were at when we created them.
Derek:So we've got a pattern of thinking, we've got a way of solving problems, we've got a way of looking at the world, and that's allowed us to solve a bunch of problems, except for the ones that we haven't solved. And the reason that we haven't solved them is because our current level of thinking won't solve them.
Reed:Right.
Derek:Right? So there's a bit of like, the survival of the fittest among problems as well. The ones that can beat you are the ones that stay with you.
Reed:Yes.
Derek:And so, redoubling your efforts using the same method of thinking is not gonna get you out of one of these negative loops, one of these one of these problems. And so it may be wise to bring in another set of eyes, another view of the problem, and that might crack things open. And so when I was thinking about the kind of work that I enjoy doing with clients, and thinking about my role, I considered a number of ways of describing what that was. And I really settled on the word guide. And there's a there's a bunch of stuff in using the idea of a guide that, that really works with what we're doing.
Derek:First of all Okay. I
Reed:Before you get into, first of all, I want you I wanna press you on that choice of words. Why not mentor? Why not helpmeet? Why not partner? You settled on guide.
Derek:We settled on guide. Okay. So there's few reasons. One of them is that it really fits the quest metaphor.
Reed:Okay.
Derek:Okay? So you're on a journey, and, you so if someone's gonna help you on a journey and know where to go, that's a guide. Right. If you think about, say, so maybe not epic fantasy, but real life outdoor adventure, that's who you hire is a guide. A mountain guide, a river guide.
Derek:And, the guide takes the journey that you and and actually, the mountain guide calls the person they take a client. So that kinda works with with, consulting as well. The client has to go on the journey. It's it's it's not a success unless the the client makes the journey. So the guide is there to support the client in the journey.
Derek:One of the reasons I don't use the word mentor is that, I was very privileged to be able to take the leaders discipline training from the Roy Group, which is led by Ian Chisholm. We've talked about, some of Ian's ideas on on this podcast. And, Ian says that the word mentor is a gift word that someone can give you that you can't assign to yourself. So if someone wants to say, Derek is my mentor, you know, that I would be honored, but I will not say to someone, hey, can I be your mentor?
Reed:I understand. I understand. Yeah. Thank you, mentor.
Derek:Yes. Another word that's used a lot is coach.
Reed:Yeah.
Derek:In my mind, there's there's, some really good things about that, but it's kinda overused. They're like, kinda anyone can be a coach. And, one of the reasons that I, I don't use it as much is because the coach isn't in the game.
Reed:Where I I understand. I understand. That's
Derek:And then and then you talked about partner. I I I loved your your multiple choice. That's awesome. Because one of the, premises, one of the approaches that we try and take it unconstrained, is that the client and the guide are partners. Okay.
Derek:So the guide is not above the client. The client is not above the guide. We're equal partners. We each bring something to the relationship that'll make it better. The client brings their knowledge of the business, the organization they have, the things they've accomplished already.
Derek:The guide brings an approach, their own experience, which is different, and then we work together. And one of the cool things about that is the guide and the client conversation that is the, the value creation moment in my business model. Sometimes, you know, you you could, have a consulting relationship where you give the the consultant a list of requirements, and they go do some research and write your report.
Reed:Right.
Derek:And, the the value that we create only happens when the guide and the client are together, and they're following this approach that we use. And then when when it all comes together, what I like to to describe it as, sometimes there's a value explosion. When when when the client, all of a sudden, sees something in a different way than they did before. And and that's that's the unstuckness. That's when that happens.
Reed:Yeah. Yeah.
Derek:I can I can tell
Reed:Where the crevices start to where the crevices start to break, and then you have a a new erosion
Derek:of, Yeah? And then and then, like, the world opens up again. I I I've I've I described this in different ways. People will say things like, I've never thought about it that way, or I just had an epiphany. Yeah.
Derek:Sometimes you get the visual mind blown thing. One of my favorites though is that is like is the stunner, The pause. Then I'll say something, and
Reed:then Yeah.
Derek:It just like they they're just processing. It just sinks in. Yeah.
Reed:It
Derek:just sinks in their processing, and they're you know, and and, I'll just I'll share one example. This was a quite an informal conversation that I had, after, after a group session where people were kind of, having these conversations with each other, in a course that I was taking. And, so this individual was talking about the the situation that they were in in their business, where, not being the CEO, This person was felt a responsibility to get the work done on behalf of the CEO and to take care of all the people.
Reed:Wow. That's that's a lot to carry.
Derek:Right. Right. And as the those thoughts were being expressed and I just asked some questions, all of a sudden, it was like, just a second here. You mean I don't have to take care of all the people?
Reed:That changes my whole perspective on my life.
Derek:Right. Right. And and and that and that was, like, that was liberating. Like Yeah. Beyond beyond beyond measure.
Derek:And so people get stuck in these these ways of thinking for good reason. They do reinforce themselves, otherwise, they'd slide out of them. And sometimes, it takes an outside conversation, an outside view, particularly one where, you know, we're ready to watch for these things. And just, and we don't do a we don't hit people over the head. I mean, that's the reaction sometimes, but it's a little question, it's like, Oh, and why is that?
Derek:And then they realize there's no good reason for why it is, other than that's always been that way. So so that's I mean, we've gone a fair bit along this thing, so that's the idea of a guide.
Reed:Okay.
Derek:And I think it's it can be very powerful, particularly in getting unstuck from, you know, ways of thinking, from assumptions, from, not, you know, wanting to address or, you know, deal with, something that, you might not even admit is an issue, but an outside person can say, really? Yep. I'll share another example. And I do just I do, you know, disguise these things a little bit. I don't want one of my clients to phoning me right up after they hear the podcast and say, you know, my secret's now out.
Derek:But, this this is a situation, and and I think, Reid, that you've probably experienced this exact thing, and I'd like your perspective. Sometimes in different professions, there's a certain personality profile that you tend to get.
Reed:Can't find? Can't get?
Derek:No. You tend you tend to get. So for example for example, I've worked with engineers.
Reed:Yes.
Derek:Engineers are very, logical and fact based. Sometimes they are a little bit less concerned about people's feelings. They're not unkind people, but there's just, like, when you get in problem solving mode, there's variables you need to consider, and variables you don't. And that's, they're trained that way. I would think that in theater, there's a certain kind of person that, needs to be able to be in touch with and express their emotions.
Reed:Yes.
Derek:And so I was in a situation, it wasn't either of those. And again, this was the owner of the organization who was complaining to me about the personality quirks of the people that, he had hired because those personality quirks are directly associated with the kind of person he needed to do this particular, high skilled work.
Reed:So he's complaining about the people he actually needed.
Derek:Right. And, sorry sorry sorry sort of called him on it. And I said, just a second here. You told me how productive these people were, and now you're complaining about the same personality traits to give them that.
Reed:Yes.
Derek:So perhaps you could think of it a different way and say, how can you build your organization around having those kind of people in it? Boom. Completely different problem. Now it's one that he can do something about.
Reed:Yeah. Well, what did he do? Is it something he doesn't does he decide that he doesn't like those people after all? That he needs he needs more stability? Or
Derek:No. No. You gotta run with it. He's he said I've hired the people on the far edge of this because they're even more productive.
Reed:Uh-huh.
Derek:But now I have to build my organization around how to manage them.
Reed:Absolutely.
Derek:Right? How to set them up for success, bring in their whole personalities. And I would say, you you gotta tell me this, but as a as a theater director, the the good ones, you gotta work with, you know, theater people. Right?
Reed:I remember hiring, as a director, hiring an actress to play a certain part knowing that she was she had a reputation for being difficult. And that can be many things, you know, being difficult. Sometimes it just means they're perfectionist. Sometimes it means that you can't relate to their concerns. But I knew that she had those tendencies, and I really wanted her for this lead role because I thought she could knock it out of the park.
Reed:Well, she was very good in the role. She was she was very convincing. But backstage, we had more drama than than was actually necessary. And I I like to keep the drama on the stage if we can. Mhmm.
Reed:But, backstage, it was it was almost intolerable. And some of the cat the cast wasn't speaking to each other. And, they because of this conflict. And she was, this person was at the head of it who was extremely opinionated and, not a team player. She was not and I would I had to I'm thinking of myself now as the guide because I'm I'm responsible for that.
Reed:Lesson learned. I I couldn't work with her again. Even when you had roles that you go, oh, she would be fantastic in this, but I had an associate who would say to me, can't we work with people we like? And and, of course, you can. Of course, you can.
Reed:So it became a it became a very important factor in my future testing.
Derek:So I I totally hear where you're coming from, and I think that's exactly right that you can build your team with people that you like. But I did well, I did learn we did learn in this conversation that, like, if if you want part of it, you gotta you gotta bring in the whole package, and then you gotta be able to deal with the whole package. And so
Reed:You're right. You're right. Might be Expand your expand your expand your your acreage of people, your your willingness to learn from various people. I I recognize I'm pretty shallow as to the number of people I prefer, and I really need as a especially as a theater professional to expand that and say, oh, there are there are qualities here from people I didn't even consider.
Derek:So so that was just an example of something that we learned that I didn't know going into the conversation. Mhmm. My client didn't know going into the conversation.
Reed:And that He found out.
Derek:There was a value explosion as we came together, and he stated his problem. And then I'm saying, well, you just told me that this is why you have people like that here. And he's like, I shouldn't you learn how to work with them? And he's like, yeah, I've never thought of it that way. And, and has made some progress since, as I understand it.
Derek:So
Reed:Glad you
Derek:But Reid, you talked about, team. And I you know, we jumped to guide. And so one of the ways that you could consider getting unstuck is, you know, having some outside help like a guide. Another way is to have some confidants, within your organization. They can see things differently.
Derek:And I think one of the ways I learned how to be a guide was because I've spent so many years being a vice president. I was a chief financial officer, a chief operating officer, and I was a confidant of the CEO in, in those cases. And the CEO would, you know, explain to me some of their challenges. And from time to time, I could see it differently than they did. And I think that, like a really high functioning executive team has multiple people with multiple different views, and in particular, when we've already are united in purpose as we've talked about, you can, you can help each other that way.
Derek:I I don't find that those teams are all that common, and it's hard to it's hard to hang on to them. And so I would say, this is not a shameless plug for unconstrained. If you don't have that kind of a team, it's probably easier to engage in a conversation with a guide than to try and to try and build your your full executive team. Although, we have and and do help people, you
Reed:know, create a lot relationships.
Derek:Create those teams and and align those teams. And so, one of the things that I did I did wanna include in this conversation is is that I think one of the reasons that the podcast has resonated with me, and, we con we continue to do it, is because the work that we do at Unconstrained is conversation. It's that conversation between client and guide. And so on the podcast, when we have conversations, you and I, and with guests, that's how we learn stuff. That's how we can, you know, kind of try things, and things become clear when we can knock it around.
Derek:And and so I think it's appropriate that, you know, what's the way out of this? It's to have a conversation with somebody.
Reed:Right. Right. It it a frequent that's frequently the answer in many life concerns, isn't it?
Derek:Well, and and and some of it is the two way conversation, but I was even just in a conversation this morning, and someone said, you know, I'm kind of apologizing, because I'm the guide in this case. I'm just kinda, like, saying stuff, you know? And then later on, it's you know, and when I say it out loud, that it makes sense, now I'm gonna write it down. So I think I think sometimes we have a bit of a block on, our own thinking processes, and we're maybe willing to say something to someone in, you know, answer to a question that we wouldn't be willing to write down because that's too, like, committed, too firm. You know, I find that
Reed:when I'm writing. When I I find, when I'm when I'm composing as a writer, I think differently than I do when I'm speaking extemporaneously. And, I feel sometimes surprised. I do remember writing some writing a play once, where I was so surprised my hands just flew off the keyboard, because what I have just written, which came from me, but it also came from a character I was writing. And I went, oh, that's just that's just great.
Reed:That's exactly what I wanted. I would have been entertained by that as an as an audience member. And I didn't I don't I still, to this day, don't feel complete ownership over it. I feel like the character said it. And, it it's an it's an extreme it's an extraordinary feeling because I'm in a different mindset.
Derek:So the character said it in a conversation where that was the thing that needed to be said.
Reed:Oh, he said something that just moved me terribly. And Yeah. I just I I pulled my I remember being very physical about it by pulling my my fingers off the keyboard and looking at it and rereading it and hearing this character talk to me.
Derek:So so I think that's what we're we're we're talking about the same thing.
Reed:Yeah. Yeah.
Derek:Like, if we can if we can just get talking and maybe, like, remove some of the barriers, some of the standards that we hold for ourselves, and then maybe address different questions, then we can we can move our thinking. And if I go back to the quotation at the beginning, Albert Albert Einstein talks about getting to a different level of thinking. And and we can't solve the problem at one level of thinking. We can if we get to a different level. We just have to figure out how to get to a different level.
Derek:That's something that I've I've I've studied and and try to help people with.
Reed:Well, I don't pretend to, be Albert Einstein's equal, intellectually. I, I'm more like a Stephen Hawking. But I, I feel that that quote resonates directly with what we're talking about and is also applicable to everyday sort of conversations. I find myself getting more and more reclusive as I age, now that I'm in my forties. I feel like I'm I'm getting more and less interested in in pursuing new people and it or pursuing new conversations, making new friends.
Reed:I'd rather just be alone, but I feel most challenged and most fulfilled when there are other people around me. So that's a that's a dichotomy I haven't haven't figured out again.
Derek:Well, I I think part of it is because if we if we go back to this idea of being stuck, on our own, and this is a as a leader of an organization as well, you can feed yourself the information that you need to complete the loop. And and so now you're stuck because of the loop reinforces itself. We can't do this because of this. We can't do that because of that. So so that's why we're stuck, because because it's feeding itself.
Derek:And so if somebody breaks into that system and says, hey, what about this? We have to look at that. Then it that can upset the equilibrium. And that and that's a good thing. And so having people in your life that are different than you, who have different priorities or challenge you on different ways is a way of, you know, kind of staying on your toes and staying on unstuck.
Derek:And, Rita, I can tell that you've been in this equilibrium because you think you're 40, but you're actually almost 62. No. Yes. And it's been twenty years of being in that stasis. You don't you didn't even know.
Derek:So we're here. Mind blown. Mind blown. That's right. That's right.
Reed:Mind blown.
Derek:Okay. We've got another one for today. That's good. That's good. So so so read text for, thanks for, like, pulling this out of me, because I don't wanna brag.
Derek:I I I don't like talking about myself as much as the ideas, but but one of the things that we've run across is that of all the stuff we've talked about, it's really valuable to have a guide to kinda open up your thinking to fully realize the benefits of systems thinking and essential dynamics.
Reed:Derek, it's always a pleasure to talk to you. I feel, that your your, wisdom has been hard earned. And, and I'm I'm in awe of it having known you as a as an adolescent. I, whoever thought that you'd end up wise. So, I'm, I'm glad you're there.
Reed:I'm glad to be part of the Essential Dynamics, and I'll always hold it dear to my heart. I think, I think that's where we should leave it. And, today's conversation has been delightful. I'm really grateful for the opportunity to guest host, and, please invite me back. I hope, I hope we continue to find new lessons from our guides.
Reed:And, in that pursuit, consider your quest.