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We discuss how churches are strengthening discipleship and helping people grow in confidence in the Bible in a changing culture.
The Quiet Revival Podcast: what's the story? explores the stories behind a renewed interest in Christianity in England and Wales.
Whether you’re a church leader, small group leader, Bible communicator or simply curious about the Church in the UK, this podcast will inform, encourage, and equip you to discover your place in this unfolding movement.
The Quiet Revival sparked a national conversation about faith, church and what God might be doing in England and Wales today. Since its publication and the recording of these podcast episodes, we've had to retract the report after the underlying data was found to be flawed – but the conversation it started hasn't ended.
The Quiet Revival was always more than a single survey. Across England and Wales we're seeing signs of renewed interest in Christianity, especially among younger people: rising Bible sales, more conversions and adult baptisms, growing attendance at evangelism courses. Many of you have shared stories that point to a changing spiritual landscape. The questions this moment raises are more important than ever.
How is your church responding to this missional moment? And how can you invite today’s spiritually open Gen Z to experience Scripture?
Benjamin (00:02)
There's something so beautiful about when you're discipling of being relational. I might be your leader, but I'm also your friend. And you know the parameters and you know the boundaries, but you know that I'm here to love you and care for you.
Shermara (00:14)
Sometimes we as leaders can disciple from wounds and wounds are scars that are not healed yet and that can actually then infect people. We need to make sure that our hearts are right with God. Have we dealt with ourselves before we want to jump and disciple others?
Benjamin (00:32)
In the book of Ezra, where the elder ones felt one way and the younger ones were feeling another, but they were both valid feelings. And I think we see that within the concept of discipleship. Then how do we sit in the uncomfortability of that? How do we reach a common understanding of what that is? But so we can both be blessed and so we can just be more like Jesus.
Shermara (00:51)
People have different doctrinal positions and beliefs. How do you then disciple across that difference?
Sian (00:58)
Hi and welcome back, whether you're a regular or this is your first time listening. I'm Sian and it's been a joy to have conversations with people around the country to find out what they, as leaders and Bible communicators, are doing differently in response to this spiritual moment. In today's episode, we will hear from ministers Shermara and Benjamin Hoyte, a couple who are deeply passionate about discipleship.
and the role it plays in raising Bible confidence in fresh and creative ways. Shermara is an author, award-winning national speaker, national principal officer at Churches Together in England, and holds a masters in theology and leadership. Benjamin is a church engagement manager here at Bible Society, and together they founded The Exchange, a place where people can come and bring their questions, experiences, and ideas.
and explore them together in a safe place. So welcome, Shermara and Benjamin.
Benjamin (02:03)
Thank
you so much, Sian. What a pleasure to be with you.
Sian (02:07)
Guys, you are both passionate, I know, about discipling and raising up leaders. So tell us some of the ways that you've seen that done really effectively and perhaps some of the challenges as well that come with that. What are you seeing in the places that you work and move?
Shermara (02:23)
As I go up and down the country, even within my own discipleship journey, some of the most effective discipleship I've seen is when people walk alongside those they are discipling, when they are genuinely accessible, not just on platforms but in their personal lives. I also say that when you're discipling people, give them safe access.
You know, I'm always struck by when Jesus is resurrected and Thomas, we call him Doubting Thomas, know, asked to touch those scars. As a 21st century audience, it's very easy for us to say, Thomas, how dare you doubt? You walked with Jesus all this time. But the reality is that we are all doubting Thomas'. When we are discipling people, we need to be open.
to speak into those doubts, to giving them room to say, I've heard of you before, but I'm struggling with this or I don't trust that you can get me through this journey. And that is a safe space to do so. And I'll finish on this, but sometimes we as leaders can disciple from wounds and wounds are scars that are not healed yet. And that can actually then infect people. So I think as we're discipling, we need to make sure that
Our hearts are right with God that, you the reality is this Christian journey is not always easy. Have we dealt with ourselves before we want to jump and disciple others because we can then actually cause harm? So, yeah, I'm always saying to leaders, know, lead from your scars, show the scars, but make sure they're not still wounds.
Sian (04:10)
Yeah, well every scar tells a story doesn't it? But we don't want that story to be damaging or hurting anybody else too.
Benjamin (04:18)
I feel like Shermara has taken a bit of what I wanted to say, but I think in the very essence of it is the formation of oneself in what keeps you and what has kept you as a Christian this very day. So why are you still a Christian on this day that we're recording Friday, May the 15th? What is that? And the power in that of of sharing that. And I think the reality of it is are we actually capable of discipling? Are we ready to disciple?
Are we even ready for some of the things that may even come up? And I think pretty much like what Shermara said in terms of the well-being of ourselves, I really am called to question with you know the rise of what we're seeing, the openness that's out there. What does it mean for us as leaders in our own well-being? And how do we safeguard that? Who are we being discipled as well by so we can then go on and disciple? I also think of just the ideology of just availability. We live in a space where
We can't reach people. Like it's hard. Like you see them on the camera or or whatever, but you're not able to reach them. And then even if you then reach them, what part or section or who am I getting today? Am I getting the real minister Benjamin? Am I getting the real Benjamin either without the minister in front, without the label? I think that also is very important. And I think it's a space of vulnerability.
But also the space to understand that when we are discipling, that we ourselves are actually being discipled by who we're discipling. And that can be hard for some people because sometimes we think that when we're on the other end, we've reached the pinnacle. But the reality is there's so much more to learn, especially about these amazing, creative, cool people that are about to enter church. They're teaching us many new things. And they're they're teaching us just to be real and authentic and not present, you know, that being a Christian has always been this way. No, yeah, I used to.
Do X, Y, and Z but you know, I met a man, I know a man named Jesus and that's why I am the way I am today and I can serve you in this moment and bring you, you know, closer towards Jesus.
Shermara (06:20)
wanted to add something that I think in our first century western world, know, we're often driven by a consumerist culture and speed, know, commodifying people. So, you know, we base it on their usefulness. And I think discipleship, need to slow down, you know, discipleship is messy. It requires a lot of patience. It's easier to say, oh, let's let's have a 15 minute.
talk and then let's move on to the more important things. But what would it look like actually for the whole service to be one-on-one, get people to pair up? How are you doing? And yes, the past and the senior leader or the ministers are equipped and trained, but what does it look like to equip the congregants to disciple in their own context as well, so that we can reach so much more people?
Sian (07:13)
think it's beautiful what you're describing there, that sense of community being formed together in discipleship by Jesus, you know, that sense of leading up but also leading down. Just speak into that, you know, where have you seen that working effectively?
Benjamin (07:27)
I can think of one church, a dear friend of ours, Pastor Io and Pastor Susan. If you're watching this, you know we honor you much, Lee. They have a church in Shoreditch, and it's a church for creatives. So it's geared at those who are within the various industries of entertainment, art, music, all those kind of good things. And they're geared towards them. So they they even learn and they're discipled in a creative way, which is outstanding. But what I love about them is that.
They literally just get it's it's not gonna sound pleasant, but they get dirty with them. They sit down with them and they they they are just with them. They're like a shepherd with the sheep. They're in the field. And just off the top of you asking that question, that's the first kind of church that has come to my mind. They're called a new thing in Shoreditch. And one of the reasons why I love them is because they are always learning. They're coming to us as fellow co-labourers and they're like, guys, this is what we've learned. This is what has happened.
You know, all those kind of good things. But I also think there's something so beautiful about when you're discipling of being relational. I might be your leader, but I'm also your friend. And you know the parameters and you know the boundaries, but you know that I'm here to love you and care for you. So they've got such a an amazing relationship where, you know, the congregation could come and tell them anything and they could sit down with them and really walk
with them. You know, they've been dealing with certain things with members that might take a month or might take two months or might even take a year, but they're willing to just walk with them and they're in it for the long haul. Yeah.
Shermara (08:58)
You spoke about, I guess, discipleship across different generations. And I think we see that model even in who Jesus chooses, you know, in his 12. You know, have a zealot and a tax collector in the same apostolic community. What on earth? You know, not everyone would choose that as their leadership team was just bringing unnecessary tension to the mission. But I think there's something in that about
discipling across difference, opening the door for everybody. And I think particularly to the intergenerational, I'm going to say challenge at times that you can see in churches, is some of the older generations, I call them fine wine, you know, have a lot of experience, scars, if you want, you know, and some of the younger generations have a lot of that vision and that zeal. And sometimes when you put those two, good,
intentions together, it can cause tension. you know, oftentimes when we go to churches and we speak, you'll hear older leaders and these younger leaders, they don't listen, they're not committed. And you'll hear some of the younger leaders say, these older leaders need to hand on the button, let go, give space. You you hear that in these in these different contexts. But I'm reminded of examples like Paul and Timothy, where the two walk together. Paul,
He speaks into Timothy. You're going to do greater than me. But Timothy then has that humility to say, I can only do greater than you because you're great. And I need to learn from that. But then you've got models like Saul and David, you know, where Saul absolutely loves the gift. Play that harp for me and get rid of those horrible dreams. But I hate your calling and I'm to try and kill you. So you see these tensions.
in these intergenerational leadership models. I think we just have to name it and talk about it. And we need to sometimes just have honest conversations.
Benjamin (11:02)
I think that's so good because I think I'm remembering the story in Ezra with the temple. the temple was destroyed and the elders were were upset because it was destroyed, but then the young ones were excited because something was about to be built and they were building it. And it's that tension of intergenerational of perspective, but realizing that there's actually a part to play because the elders are remembering the landmarks, you know, the blood, sweat, and tears. We see it in our generation, or particularly in the Pentecostal Wind Rush generation for those that came over and built
with blood, sweat and tears. Now they're saying that they remortgaged their homes or even sold their house. I can't even lie to you guys. I can't think that I would sell my house to to to do something like that big. But if the conviction is on my heart, then maybe, but you know, and then you've got younger ones that are coming up.
And being disciple, but that might not necessarily be where they feel the same tension. So it's resting there with all of them because I say to Shermara, two things can be true at once. And that's a perfect example of seeing that in the book of Ezra, where the elder ones felt one way and the younger ones were feeling another. But they were both valid feelings. And I think we see that within the concept of discipleship across. I may not feel like this way, and you may not feel like that about the same thing.
But they're both valid. And how do we sit in the uncomfortability of that? How do I allow you to wrestle with that? How do we reach a common understanding of what that is? But so we can both be blessed. And so we can just be more like Jesus? Like how do we sit that? You know, we might even have some visceral reactions. I might start to sweat. I might start to get anxious. But you know, how do we sit with that and it be okay? You know?
Sian (12:34)
Guys, what I'm loving about this conversation is just how honest and authentic it is. And I know that you are offering a space called The Exchange, which allows people to do just that. Tell us a little bit about The Exchange.
Benjamin (12:46)
We felt God had been calling us into a space to provide for I don't know, I'm gonna say the Gen Z, the Gen A's, the Millennials, but actually really and truthfully it's for everyone. Yeah, it's for it's for everyone. And we felt a call in to create this safe space. And I think it's a different space. It's a unique space in that it just allows people to come with whatever their questions are. So when we first started, we had a really cool topic about what are the dating streets like.
in 2026. And so they came and they were like they're messy, you know, they're horrible. But then it got down to the real kind of nitty-gritty questions about trauma and abuse. And it provided a space really with us and other leaders, because we we co-labour with a lot of other people, to just speak about the reality of being in church and the feelings that I'm feeling like, okay, I'm single and I want to get married. What's my preparation like? I've been hurt before. I've got trauma. How do I deal with it?
And what I love about it is that God has really allowed us the grace for healing to take place. Is that we've heard so many beautiful stories. I think one time, you know, I think of one of the most prominent ones we had in Shoreditch, and a lady, I think she was in her 60s, and she was in a very volatile situation with her husband, never mentioned it, but within the confines of that space, felt it safe enough to mention it. And the spirit broke out, healing erupted.
She shared some things and God was in the place. And I think that that was the beauty of what we provided. Because on Sundays you don't get the time, you know, and you don't get to do all of it with your co-labourers as well, joining, you know. We say the Calvary's arrived. So the exchange really just gave us that that space really for people just to come. We've had some
Great topics. We did dating, we did faith and trauma, friendships. We did, you know, as Christians, how do we deal with these real conversations? And unfortunately, not everyone's gonna want to talk to their pastor or their mum and their dad, but you might have minister Ben and Minister Shemara who's available to shed some light. We might not have all the answers because we're still learning, but you have a space. God commanded us to create a space and that's what we did. I don't know if I missed anything, Shamar.
Shermara (14:54)
I think you said it beautifully. think another thing I would say is it's a space and we find that leaders come or send some of their congregants because you can't do all of that on a Sunday, even in Wednesday Bible study or however, you you administer your discipleship. You know, it's a safe space. It's a fun space and people just in their cool clothes. And we try to make it open to those who are spiritually curious as well. So the topics that
choose, we're OK with the taboo topics and the ones that might make your hairs on your arms stand up. We're OK. We're comfortable. We say come, we'll discuss it. And but we're also quite clear that we do come from a Christian and biblically based perspective. And you might also find our response uncomfortable. we do try to make it a reciprocal space, you know, to say, yes, nothing is off limits, but.
we are okay saying that, we're Christians and this is our perspective on things.
Sian (15:57)
But I find that really beautiful, really beautiful that you are willing to talk about things that perhaps people won't naturally go to their pastor about. And you know, I have that sense of, if they're not coming to the church, they'll go and ask elsewhere sort of things. So for you to create that space that is open and safe and yes, perhaps vulnerable, but actually ultimately is going to feed them and nourish them and strengthen them in their faith.
That sounds really healthy. So let's just return for a second if we can. I'd love to hear more about sort of whole church discipleship. Perhaps yes in ways that meets different generations, but whole church discipleship that also promotes unity. What do you think about that?
Benjamin (16:41)
think that's that's so good. I think there's something there that in terms of promoting unity, I think you need to promote unity across the whole church. So are we on the same page? Are we focused towards the same goal? What is it that we're doing? And I think that really starts with the equipping. So you know, like you spoke earlier about Bible confidence. What does that look like? How are we engaging the congregation to know that this is actually the goal or this is actually the role of all of us in the church and it's not just led to the pastor. So it's
Also down to perspective, I tell Shemara all the time that if I'm a c if I'm a cleaner, whenever I walk into a house, my perspective will be looking at where needs to be cleaned. If I have the perspective of me being someone that is out there for Christ and discipling people and promoting unity, that will be what I see. So whenever I don't see it, I know instinctively I need to act on it. So there is something across the body of Christ that I believe needs to be a culture shift.
In changing that. And it starts from the head, really. It starts from the importance of coming back to the scripture, weekly Bible study, you know, sitting down, wrestling with it. It starts from the head. And I see that kind of flowing down. I think the other thing that I would also say is just the reassurance that we are bold enough and we can. I think sometimes we feel like we can't because I'm not equipped. The reality is everybody has a story. And at the very least, that is what you can share.
So when you equip the people to know that your story is enough as to why you're still in the pew, you're still in the chair at this very moment, that's a great starting point. And I think that that will promote the unity to allow us to know that we are equipped.
Shermara (18:16)
Yeah, and I guess another perspective as well, you spoke about the whole church. I guess from the ecumenical perspective, you know, people have different doctrinal positions and beliefs, and you know, how do you then disciple across that difference? And I think it's having that humility to be open, to understand, to say, you know, for instance, I'll give a quick example, I'm a Pentecost, if you cut me through the middle, you'll get some speaking tongues and you know.
But at 22, I actually went to live in an Anglo-Catholic lay community that has formed my sputrality, or there's been a convergence between the two. And I would say that they discipled me in a brilliant way. So, I think across the church, we need to be open to convergence. We need to be open to being discipled by different traditions, you know, for the more newer.
independent churches, what would it look like to be discipled by an Orthodox church or, you know, and vice versa, be open to being discipled by the whole church. I think the other thing I would say is unity is not uniformity. And I know that sounds so cliché, but it really isn't, you know, I think it's our distinctiveness being redeemed and being reconciled. You know, oftentimes I think about
and the church, the birth of the church, and see on Pentecost, you know, they're not all speaking the same language. People are understanding the different languages. So, there's not an erasure. There's a redemption. There's an equality and dignity in what everybody has to bring. And I think that we can be discipled by the whole church as a richness in that. You know, there's things that I will know that you won't know, Sean. There's things that you will know, Sean.
that we won't know. And I think as the body comes together, you know, a mosaic, really, we get that type of. What's happening?
Benjamin (20:15)
Yeah,
Sian (20:18)
That's beautiful. Benjamin, you made reference to knowing Jesus through the head, but we also have this theory of change at Bible Society, which talks about the heart and about the outworking of what we're being discipled into through the hands. So, just tell us about that sort of theory of change. How are you seeing that working in your sphere of influence?
Benjamin (20:39)
I think with with the the concept of the head, I think we're talking about a Romans 12, 12 being renewed of the mind. I think when we know the word, it really re-orient reorientates how we think and how we understand ourselves and how we even see the world and God. And I think without that, I think within the concept of discipleship, it becomes kind of like experimental and it has no roots if we don't really sit down to understand that that is it. And I think within that we see that.
Across many churches, but in particular, the same church that I mentioned before, the ANT, what they actually have is something called tap. It's called talk and pray. So some Sundays, what they do is have worship and then they'll break out into smaller groups within the church, and then they will discuss a particular scripture, they will wrestle with it, and then they'll come back to the whole church and then share.
Now that gives the whole perspective of the head, understanding that the word is the principle. And you know what? We get to do it together. Because sometimes, let's be real, on some Sundays, you come in and it's just very forward-facing. It's just like the person at the top is speaking to us. But this now incorporates a community effort together. And that's what I love about that. And then they even have decided that some Sundays they don't even go to church. What they do is that they will have their home groups on Sunday. So everybody will commune within their home.
And then guess what? They finish with fellowship. So therefore, it goes through kind of like a biblical process because we see and understand the importance of fellowship. And here's why I love fellowship: because fellowship would call you to people that you not necessarily would commune with on a regular basis, like friendship, where you choose them. So I think that that would be one of the places where I would definitely say I've seen the hands and the sorry, the head. And the head is just
the beginning because the head has to travel further down into the heart. But I'm gonna I'm gonna stop there for now because I don't know if Shermara wants to to add anything. Yeah.
Shermara (22:40)
I guess when I think about the head, I think about mindset. So, people come into our midst with different world views, different mindsets, whether you're a Christian or not, maybe if you come from a different religious conviction. So, I think sometimes in our discipleship, we do need to pay attention, yeah, to mindsets, examining them. Where did you get that from? Why do you believe that? Having it in a safe space to discuss it.
But it might be a conversation over coffee and say, okay, you believe that, where did that come from? How can we look at this differently? And having that humility, a humble posture really.
Benjamin (23:20)
Yeah. And I think the heart the heart of it really is now the the understanding and the application of it coming down. So I think if you if you're thinking of the the head, the heart, the hands, it's now this is where the the real core of it starts to happen. Like the mechanism has to happen before we then use the hands to kind of carry it out. And I think what's beautiful about that is because the Bible always talks about a heart from out of it flows the issues of life. And it's probably one of the most things that we actually underestimate the power of.
With the heart now, it also tells us to guard it because it's susceptible to many things. So I think with the heart, it's one of the most beautiful things now that we understand the revelation of loving God, not because of what he can do, but because of who he is and the character. It's the application of what I've heard in my head now manifesting and being kind of like I don't think concretized is a word, but being cemented being cemented. So it's like
Where what we know about God becomes what we love about God. You know, it it produces people who are now informed, but also are transformed. The heart is where the transformation begins to take place. And that's why most of the times you see when you encounter some person and and they've encountered Jesus, you look at them and say, something about you is different.
Shermara (24:39)
The only thing that I would add is the heart, I think it deals with posture. know, do we do things from a place of obligation or because I love this, you know, I'm married to Benjamin not because I'm obligated, but because I choose and I love him. And I think as we journey with Christ, and I'm not trying to personalize everything because I know we're in a corporate faith and God comes for nations and peoples. But if I do go to that very personal level,
You there's a devotion to God, there's a devotion to our Christian walk where we do it as we grow in relationship and transform in community. So, I think that's really important because as a disciple in the community, you're sharing with others, you're getting that deeper revelation and you go from obligation or fear-based worship to devotion and being known and called and loved by God.
Sian (25:37)
And I love that as the years go by, you know, the revelation increases, doesn't it? And there are certainly some things that I believe now that I didn't believe sort of five or ten years ago. And because I'm walking with Jesus, trying to do it daily, you know, I can trust that actually the revelation will increase within me and that actually as I move forward into the next five or ten years, that maybe things will change in my understanding and my knowledge.
I definitely want to love Jesus more in the next years and the years to come. So, yeah, that's wonderful. Thanks, guys.
Shermara (26:10)
That is so true because, know, I often say, you know, the Holy Spirit is always bringing us into deeper levels of truth. And I think another reality is that we're not always ready for the truth or the deeper revelations. You know, as I said, some of the things that I deeply held in conviction five, six years ago, I'm like, whoa, Shemarra. You know, as you read more and come around other Christians, other traditions, then I guess the heart.
allows you to have that humility to hold things lightly.
Benjamin (26:40)
But I also think just quickly, I think God is a gentleman. So in his revelation of himself to us, he's very gentle. Shemar always says that God didn't give you all the breath in your body to last you all your life at the very beginning of time. He gives it to you in increments. And I think that's the beauty about even the transformation of the heart. It it has to go over time. You know, it it works in a process, and understanding that process might not even be easy. Even in discipleship, I mean.
the the change like, my gosh, like I really have to put down the crystals or I really have to put down the things that I actually held as part of my identity. And there's like a I I consider it like how a phone charges. You know, today it might be ten percent and then gradually twenty percent and then thirty percent. And before you know it, there's such a transformation of you that you're like, my gosh, who is this? I I look the mirror, who who is this person? That that was not me, you know. I used to be doing X, Y, and Z and now I wanna
On a Sunday I'm at I'm at church for two hours and I'm serving tea and coffee at the end. You know, who who is this who is this person?
Sian (27:42)
I mean, discipleship is construction, not deconstruction, right? As discipleship goes on, you're becoming more and more like Jesus and more aligned with His Word, not less. Guys, this has been gold, but I'd love just to ask you one more question, if that's okay. I'd love to hear any nuggets of advice that you can give. We've got a listener sort base of pastors, leaders, Bible engagement.
people, communicators, disciples of Jesus. And I'd love you just to offer them some encouragement as they look to go deeper into discipleship, please.
Benjamin (28:22)
I think I'm reminded of the story of Apollos and Priscilla and Aquila. Many of us are Priscilla and Aquila. We're carrying something worth giving. And there's someone in the world right now, there is an Apollos just waiting for us. So to be encouraged by what you carry, be encouraged by your testimony, be encouraged by your journey, be encouraged by your mountaintop and your valley. God gives you content not for yourself. You think of social media, people that make content for
For themselves to sit down and watch it. They make it for the wider world. So my question to every leader, to every listener, to every disciple is what is your content that is to be shared? What is someone waiting on out there so they can be blessed, so they can be equipped and so they can meet a man named Jesus through your story? That's what I would say. And also, sorry, this is one thing that I always say whenever I get the opportunity purpose is bigger than death. So as long as you are living in this earthly realm, you have a
on purpose to glorify the Lord and glorify God through your own living life.
Sian (29:26)
beautiful.
Shermara (29:27)
Wow, that's powerful. I think what I would say is jump in and don't wait to be perfect to disciple P school. Don't wait for the PhD, the master's, the degree before you can speak to somebody. Yes, you can equip yourself so you can, you know, disciple P, be more efficient in how you disciple. But don't let that stop you. And I think I would give them a challenge. I'd actually challenge you to get a notebook or notes on your phone.
and write down who discipled you into the faith. And the second thing I would say is, why are you still here? And that will just help to formulate your story to remind you that discipleship still works because you're still here. So surely if you share that story and your life with others in 10, 20 years time, however long it will be, they can do the same.
Benjamin (30:21)
That's so good. That's so good.
Sian (30:23)
Brilliant. Guys, we are so grateful to you for sharing such gold. It's been an absolute joy to speak to you today. So thank you so very much. We honor you both. Thanks, Benjamin. Thanks, Yamara.
Benjamin (30:38)
Thank you.
Shermara (30:38)
Thank
you so much.
Sian (30:40)
Well, wasn't that a wonderful and rich conversation with Benjamin and Shermara? Personally, I feel really deeply challenged about who am I discipling and who am I being discipled by and which voices am I allowing to speak into my life. We really hope that you enjoyed that conversation as much as we did. So join us for the next episode where we'll be swapping the indoors for the great outdoors.
and we'll be in The Gower in South Wales exploring Bible reading and faith through wild church, creativity and the experiential. And don't forget to send us your questions for the upcoming Q &A episode at podcasts at biblesociety.org.uk or go to our website biblesociety.org.uk forward slash questions. Until next time, goodbye.