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Interviewing indie founders about their journey and their products. itslaunchday.com
Dagobert Renouf (00:01)
Hey Uros, did I say that right? Because you just teach me before. Uros, welcome to lunch day.
Uros (00:04)
You said it perfect, yes. ⁓
Thank you, you, nice to be here. ⁓ Do you have a nickname? It's always Dago or Dagobert?
Dagobert Renouf (00:16)
Yeah, it's Dago.
Dago is the nickname. I used to be, to not say that, I mean in France people call me Dago, but like, because I know it's like a slur in America for making fun of Italians, like Dago. Dago is super insulting for Italian people. It's like a big slur, big racist thing. Like in New York, like, all of these fucking Dagos, that means all of these Italians, in a bad way. So I was always afraid to say, you know.
Uros (00:42)
that.
Dagobert Renouf (00:46)
that this is the way people should call me, you know. So I try to say Dago, not Dago, you know, to try to get away from that. But yeah. Yeah, but like in Europe, people don't know this, so it's fine. But yeah, so.
Uros (00:51)
⁓ okay.
I'll leave it on the A, the different one.
In Europe, you're a king, right? Your name comes from a king.
Dagobert Renouf (01:08)
Yeah, that's it. That's also the name of this duck in Donald Duck. Like the duck we've had lots of money. It's Dagobert Duck. So I mean, it's funny because in France, it's not his name. So I learned this only five years ago that this was actually the name of the duck. So yeah.
Uros (01:14)
yes.
Yes.
Did you,
when you learned that, you feel now like you're more entitled to the riches?
Dagobert Renouf (01:33)
Exactly, yeah, think I finally I can make some money like because you know, yeah Because actually the the king in France is like a joke like my dad named me that's quite a like, you know kind of depressing if I get into it, but like My dad it was a joke for him It's not like a cool king. It's not like Louis 16 or like not a cool French king It's like a king that people used to make fun of and so nobody has this name because it's a kind of joke
for kids and my dad thought it was fun to give me this name. And he also gave me nine names because he thought, you whatever. So yeah, yeah, I have nine names. Yeah. ⁓
Uros (02:03)
All right.
Nine names.
So wait, on the
documents, the official documents, have nine names.
Dagobert Renouf (02:18)
So on my French ID card, they didn't have enough room, so there's only seven, but on the passport, there is nine. But when I go to the airport to scan my passport, it doesn't work because they had to make the font size smaller, but somehow their software, it's the same font size for everything. font size is small on my whole passport because the name had to fit. So I cannot scan my passport at the airport, it doesn't work. So yeah.
Uros (02:49)
So what do you do? Then you print the big one, A3 paper and then you bring it with you.
Dagobert Renouf (02:54)
No, you know, I just have to go to the fucking manual thing, but you know, but maybe I should do that. So, yeah. ⁓ And what does Uros mean? What's the origin? What's the country? Sounds like some Swedish or Danish thing. ⁓
Uros (03:06)
So this is the funny like
Maybe it's because of the hair. No, no. So actually what you said now makes it even more funny because my name, so it originates from Serbia and in Serbia the last king like back back in the days that was the name of the king. So it was basically the... how do you say?
Dagobert Renouf (03:15)
Maybe.
Okay.
Uros (03:40)
one that ended up breaking the whole kingdom. So he was basically the weakest link. That's the basically story. But then I was so that's why it's like it's funny because it's somehow connected with the names that it's like the low class kings.
Dagobert Renouf (03:49)
shit.
But it's funny because when you hear Dagobere, that sounds kind of awesome if you don't know the story. And it's the same with Uros. I imagine this crazy strong guy. So, you know, we shouldn't tell the story probably.
Uros (04:08)
There were...
Yes. There were different names. Like, usually people had like multiple names and the name was basically, again, strong. But because of the whole thing with the past, then it ended up on him and he had that name and that's why that story. But I read like somewhere also in like the origins of the name, the UR is from Hungarian that means sir. So I'm like a sir.
Dagobert Renouf (04:25)
day.
Uros (04:38)
So there's like different, different scenarios, but somehow I'm also not proud of the name because whenever I say people have struggles to say the name. So then when I was traveling in the States, I was going with Ross and then it just like, Ross from friends. And then everybody remembers, started reminding, like remembering my name three times and they get it wrong.
Dagobert Renouf (04:59)
There was a
taxi driver in USA, thought my name was Taco Bear and not Dago Bear. But at least he remembered. So yeah. What's your name, Dago Bear? Taco Bear? No, Dago Bear. Okay, whatever. Yeah, so.
Uros (05:03)
Thank you man!
Yeah, okay. ⁓
Ooh.
Then, actually, let me do the reverse question then. So now that you had like, you're doing this, this is now your show.
Dagobert Renouf (05:31)
Yes, it is. It's a show now.
Uros (05:33)
So tell me then ⁓ how do you feel every time when you have a call like this with someone?
Did you imagine when you were creating this that it's gonna be like in this way, that it's gonna go big, like, let's say you're gonna have some emotions about it? I wanted to ask you that, that's why I asked you before. Can I ask the questions?
Dagobert Renouf (06:01)
No, yeah, yeah,
yeah, you asked me before this call, can you ask me? No, there's no problem. I'm just like, hmm. You mean emotions about, well, I'm just gonna say, you let me know if you have another question. So.
When I do these calls, it's funny because deep down, let's say in my heart, it's been years that...
I want to, I love the community thing. I love being with friends on X, I mean Twitter or... ⁓
And that's what I love the most. And I remember one and a half years ago, I wanted, before thinking of this product, I wanted to make a Twitter alternative just for indie makers. But it seemed impossible. I didn't see how I could do that, how I could pull it off, so I didn't do it. Then I stumbled upon this product and competitor idea. But the more I worked on it, the more it became less like product and more like a community, because that's what I want to do. That's what's in my heart.
You know, and so it ended up being focused on the interviews more than on the products. And now it's a balance between both. ⁓ And there's also a Slack community that you will be invited to just after this call. ⁓ And that's actually quite alive already, which is cool. And so yeah, how I feel is I feel like I'm connecting with somebody else from the IndieMaker space.
and that I'm creating community. That's the thing I feel. I feel like I'm creating a community. I'm helping create this community. And not just because of, not just launch day as the community, but like it's helping even for, you know, that people can see you, can meet you, I meet you, everybody meets you through that. And same with everybody else who comes on. That's creating bonding and connection, you know, between people.
Uros (08:04)
Yes.
Dagobert Renouf (08:13)
That's how I feel about it, that's the thing. Not sure if that answers what you meant, but you can ask me a follow up question if you want.
Uros (08:17)
It does, it does.
I'm gonna ask you, I think you already answered it, but I wanna like just pinpoint it. Do you feel that now you connect more with yourself? There's a reason why I ask you this question. I'm gonna connect it in a bit, but do you feel it?
Dagobert Renouf (08:31)
So.
Yeah, I think yes, because I think this need for community is because I need it, as I miss it. I want to be with friends. I feel in my hometown of Lille, there's nobody. I don't have an IndieMaker community. There's nothing. There used to be one guy, but he moved around all the time, so he's not there anymore. And so there's a small community, but they're not really the same vibe as the Twitter IndieMakers.
⁓ So I feel quite lonely and so by doing this, like every time I do these calls...
I feel more real somehow. It makes it more real. My journey becomes more real. Because if it's just me alone in my journey, it can become quite abstract and I can get lost also on social media, on X and start disconnecting a bit from myself and start tweeting random shit because I feel kind of, know, which is not really good, not even for me. don't know. Sometimes it's just like...
I just feel, know, I'm just going a bit crazy for being so lonely sometimes, to be honest. And so, yeah, this actually heals me to do that. And I hope it can do that to other people, and I think it does. But, you know, that's basically the thing. So yeah, it does help me reconnect with myself. Yeah.
Uros (10:07)
Well, thank you for putting it like that. Somehow it's the answer that I was hoping for. So you delivered it exactly like in these, let's say, the way that I imagined. Why did I imagine it like this? So again, I saw a couple of other videos you did. I saw, like I read books. I've been, let's say, in this creator space for a while.
Dagobert Renouf (10:15)
out.
Uros (10:36)
And there's always, let's say, when you sit down to create something, there's reason for that. But a lot of people go on for something like, oh yeah, someone is building this, and then they see some huge chunks of money. There's like, I don't know, 20, 100K, all that stuff. And they're like, I'm successful. So all of that is nice. But from, let's say, my experience and...
from seeing other people. Usually the things that end up being successful is just the result of the need that you have. Like usually people start building something because of money is always like down the list. Money is nice to have, but it's more reasons than anything else that is connected to anything with the wealth. So for example, now you did this for the feel of the community. There's also the feel that you do it
for yourself. And I think a lot of founders, creators, they do, again, something when they say scratching your own itch, that's like one thing, but then there's scratching your own itch, and then you actually feel satisfied when something is out there and then being used by the others.
Dagobert Renouf (11:52)
It's like
a spiritual edge also. It's not just the... ⁓
Uros (11:55)
Exactly.
So then you end up somehow creating something bigger than you are. And then what happens now? Like I'm telling this right now because I'm going through this phase right now. So a lot of people would end up building something. Then they go to the point of like, hey, build this. It's amazing. It's here. And then now it's supposed to be seen by other people and then it gets stuck. And then you get a
notion that it's not good enough, that it's like somehow, as I said, stuck. So then you start building more on it and then by building more on it you get more inside yourself again than the self doubts, than all the darkness that comes, the isolation that you mentioned. And then you again end up in this moment of like, ⁓ this was, it fixed my itch, but it's not out there.
I over exaggerated this, I'm gonna slim it down now.
For example, I saw the, I forgot the name of the guy who created those hexagon elements for the company. He's from Chile, but I forgot the name. Yes. So it was.
Dagobert Renouf (13:12)
Yeah, Daniel. Daniel. And the
app is called Expandify. Yeah. From launch day number three. You can go to launch day, past launch days in the bottom and find it.
Uros (13:20)
Nice. Yes.
Nice. So that was for me also like one good example that he saw something and then he just like took it down there and then he created like his own approach to this. But then he went like full in, he went like all the way and now with AI it enabled him as you to just like expand. So there was also the moment where I was stuck that I didn't work on my project for a year but it was...
still there, I didn't want to give up until I saw like what was made out of it. So now I'm basically here and now I'm going like in this upstream hill. So it's funny because when like when I watched some of your videos you also said that you had like a burnout and then you just like cut yourself off and then you needed to reset. So now you're here you're building this.
So the point is all the things that you did in the past, it was not for nothing, even though it was maybe not how you imagined, you created all like you created the wealth from within you with the knowledge, with the amount of people, with the connections and all that. So now you're in this moment that even before you launched your product, you already had people who were like thumbs up and who already gave you money to be.
Dagobert Renouf (14:24)
Yeah.
Uros (14:53)
in the show, not to give you money because I don't know it's amazing but they believe in you and then they support you in like you as a persona instead of let's say the product itself is just the outcome of all your values that you did in the past.
Dagobert Renouf (14:59)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Yes, and it's the same with the wedding suit. ⁓ It's really a way for people to support me and, you know, in a bigger sense.
Uros (15:10)
Yes.
Dagobert Renouf (15:21)
You know, it's interesting what you said about...
people work and then they build it and it doesn't get received by people. And I think it's because of, I mean, when I was listening to you, it seemed obvious that the problem is lack of connection. Like you build in isolation. And we talk about marketing. And marketing is one thing, but there's also connection. Like for example, I don't do a lot of marketing. I do a lot of connection. But, and that means like,
being with people, talking with people, showing your work with people, getting feedback, but not just that, not just like being in the same vibe of people, know, seeing what they are doing, seeing what you're doing, talking with them, meeting them, even online like we do now. And that just puts you in a different spot than if you're working alone. And I know because I was building alone my previous startup for two or three years before doing any kind of social media with my ex-wife who was also my co-founder.
Uros (16:18)
Yes.
Dagobert Renouf (16:24)
⁓ Long story. yeah, there's like this thing where it really changed me when I started doing trade four years ago and I started connecting. Like it's like a new dimension. Like it's another dimension that is super important and it's going to impact everything. It's not just about selling. It's about the ideas you have, the confidence you have, the motivation you have. It just has an impact on everything.
and the idea of just like building something alone and you're gonna launch it and people are gonna give a shit. Sure, it's a marketing problem, but it's also a connection problem, because the connection problem is deeper than just you need marketing. It's also, if you're not connected, you are unlikely to build it in a way that people care about, because it's not connected to helping anybody. You know, it's just an idea. But once it connects to people, then you can shape it.
Uros (17:16)
Yeah.
Dagobert Renouf (17:22)
so that it helps and then people care about the products more. You know what mean?
Uros (17:27)
Yeah.
What were you thinking?
Dagobert Renouf (17:42)
No, that's it, you know, I think.
Uros (17:45)
I wanted to add because exactly what you like describe, that's why asked you what we're thinking. So you go down a path, a certain path, and then there's, let's say a lot of dark moments that a lot of people don't see that you're also passing. Like everything on the internet is like, know, fluffy colors, all that stuff. But then what happens in those like dark moments? Because for example, for me, it was helpful to have
a project that I was working on through those dark moments. basically it was helping me in everything else around me was like all over the place, breaking completely out of my control. But this one thing was in my complete control. So I'm gonna, let's say, try to connect with my story and then we can do the ping pong. So I ended up...
creating this project because I always wanted to be in a situation to create something useful. So to solve a certain problem. it's, let's say, all the way when I finished university, I needed those skills to actually build something because when you build something, if it's a little bit more complex, you need a lot of knowledge that usually you don't get on the universities.
So then you need to build yourself up or you find people who know something that you don't know. Again, it's so difficult if you don't have a network or if you're like in a certain university that has nothing to do with what you want to build in the future. So a lot of people again get...
Dagobert Renouf (19:30)
So what did
you want to build at the time just to get some context?
Uros (19:33)
So at a
time there was like I found two colleagues we sat down to build a product that was basically you have ideas but you cannot find let's say other people with appropriate skills to create build it. So for example you have front-end guys who need back-end to create the whole system or anything like that so it's
Dagobert Renouf (19:58)
Thank you.
Uros (20:02)
a lot revolving around the idea, then for me the main point was I want to learn from this. So if it happens, it happens, it's nice. But if not, then at least I know how to work in a team. I know how, let's say, when things go difficult, what happens then? How do you communicate this with people? Because everybody thinks everything is amazing all the time and everybody sees the result. But then there's like always that picture of a...
Dagobert Renouf (20:21)
Mm.
Uros (20:28)
Iceberg that's only the tip out and then everything else below So I went through a lot of different let's say scenarios. I'm gonna try to speed up because now it's already 30 minutes That's why I asked you asked you before how much do we have because I can go like in so many different directions Basically I ended up doing this with them for a year and a half one guy fell off because whenever we will we were like
Dagobert Renouf (20:31)
Yeah.
Hehehe.
No, yeah, for sure I hear you. Okay, yeah.
Uros (20:58)
putting the goals, he just didn't do it for his personal reasons. The issue there was it was not a problem that he didn't do it, it was a problem that he didn't communicate it because then we can organize it different. And then he fell out of the team, those two were bigger buddies than me and them too. So that was also a little bit difficult to see basically their friendship somehow happening between them. So it was difficult for me as well. Regardless.
Dagobert Renouf (21:10)
Yeah.
Yeah, okay.
Uros (21:27)
Everything, let's say, eroded in the end. I got my part of it. Like that part is also living in this project right now. But it was, let's say, a necessary path to go through that like dark period, like number one. There were different dark periods. But from every moment where I went through this, I took something out and then I put it in the position that it's going to benefit me or like do things.
Dagobert Renouf (21:55)
Yeah, it seems like you were
aware of it from the beginning. Like even when you started the project, you were like, probably not gonna succeed, but I'm gonna learn a lot. You were already in the right mindset, I think. That's cool.
Uros (22:07)
I probably cannot say I was like that from the beginning, but it was when things were, let's say, happening over the months. just, there's the moment where you need to, let's say, accept that this is the way, this is the future of this, but I'm just gonna take, let's say, the benefit or the lessons. So it propelled all the way through, I went, I got an internship in Germany. I ended up being a developer.
Dagobert Renouf (22:20)
Yeah, yeah.
Uros (22:37)
Then I saw like, I like to create stuff, but as a developer, to be a very good developer, you need a lot of time invested, a lot of skills, all those. So I did build stuff, I worked for a company and that was great, but I ended up liking more the UX design on how things work. What is the, let's say the real.
Dagobert Renouf (22:48)
Yeah.
Yeah, me too. Yeah, I'm the same.
I was never a great developer, even though I did that for a long time. I think I was good, but not. I've met some great developers and it's a different level. You you can see their brain works differently. Yeah.
Uros (23:11)
Yes.
Yes,
I completely admire that, but I was completely aware I'm not that, so I'm not going to go that way. So then I switched careers, that was also a pain because when you're in Germany they ask you for the what university you end up with, like the references and all that stuff and the only reference they had is from my own project and from the company that I worked for. So I luckily found a position, so that was great, that helped me a lot. Then...
Dagobert Renouf (23:19)
Yeah.
So as a designer
then.
Uros (23:42)
as a designer. I completely, I knew like I was still doing it at home, the development, but I was like the official title was product designer. And then that was also interesting. Again, like I would imagine other people are going to listen to this, but I was in a position where my product design skills came from me. Like I was on the internet, I was learning, I was doing all the stuff. And then when I got into the company, they employed
Dagobert Renouf (23:52)
Yes.
Uros (24:12)
a colleague of mine who had 12 years of experience and at that time I had three. So they took me as a junior and they took him as a senior. So when we ended up actually working together, most of the results that we, let's say, adopted for the product itself, it came from my Figma rather than his. So it was the tweaks that were coming from his, but mine...
Dagobert Renouf (24:20)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uros (24:41)
were like from all the things that I was playing around with. especially now in this world where you have access to so many things, you can see so many UX elements or like the product design themselves. to go to school, yes, it's useful if you're like, let's say you have a different goals, but if you wanna build something, again.
Dagobert Renouf (24:45)
Yeah.
Uros (25:08)
At this age, it's completely different, even for like working for a different company. So I'm happy that that didn't stop me from getting the job.
Dagobert Renouf (25:17)
But also, you
know, it's also, I think, an advantage of being a generalist. When you do many things, then it also gives you a wider knowledge. And so when you're gonna, you know, for example, I was talking about this on another interview I did about if you do UX design,
it's the same kind of work as when you do storytelling or copywriting. It's about taking people through a journey. like, if you, for example, find a passion for writing, it will make you a better designer. Or like, if you ⁓ code, then you will also know things that will be useful for designing. And being a generalist like this, get like, which you never can have at school, because school is to make you a specialist. I think it seems.
⁓ Well, you know, that's how you can beat somebody. You know, can be produced better quality than somebody who has 12 years of specialist experience, but they're basically just very narrow. So there's probably some things they were better at than you, but in terms of vision, maybe it was less interesting. Yeah.
Uros (26:29)
Yeah.
I think like in the beginning a lot of people get afraid again I was at least when you're like missing some knowledge or you're missing some skills that you can't do it somehow now with the AI it's much easier yes but then there's again the the thing that I see in the AI it's it's giving you the knowledge but somehow you don't end up getting the confidence because you're just extracting the information in the
best possible way you can read it but if you don't let's say feel it
Dagobert Renouf (27:07)
And at least for
me, there's also the fear that maybe it's wrong. Because the AI, you don't even have the confidence that it's 100 % true. With code, it doesn't really matter. Because if it's working, it's working. But if you're doing research on something, it's kind of scary.
Uros (27:11)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
I saw so many people that they just, they come to me and they're like, ⁓ he said this. And I'm like, can you really just take it exactly as for granted? Like there's no 1 % of maybe I can check also this for myself because you have the information and you can just fact check it. But they like it's been what two and a half years, three years that it's like mainstream people now completely believe it. Again, I'm not saying it's wrong. It's just
Dagobert Renouf (27:42)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Uros (27:56)
The wrong thing is that you end up not believing in yourself. To, again, connect this all the way to the beginning, how we started the conversation. Also, when you build your product, it's also this, you're building something, but do you believe in it? And then that's the thing that keeps you through all the difficult periods.
Dagobert Renouf (28:18)
Yeah, and you need some conviction and with AI it's harder to get some convictions. ⁓ So since you are leading this interview, what do you want to talk about next for the 15 minutes that we have left? Do you want to show your product? Do you want to do something?
Uros (28:31)
Ahem.
I can show my product. I'm just gonna let's say for this. ⁓
The situation that I'm in, it's very similar to, let's say, yours in the sense of I had, let's say, my life was kind of in a locked down state. I was living in Germany since originally come from Serbia. The EU passport doesn't allow you to move around, like, or at least it doesn't give you a choice. So you cannot, if you now want to come and live, I don't know.
In Spain, you can just pack your bags and you come. That's it. So for non-EU people, it's always a challenge. So I ended up, let's say, I wanted to get out, explore the world. I ended up in Germany.
Dagobert Renouf (29:18)
Yeah.
But wait, wait, you could do that as a Serbian... In Serbia you can do that,
Uros (29:37)
No
Dagobert Renouf (29:39)
You're not in Schengen in Serbia?
Uros (29:41)
That means only three months you can stay somewhere.
Dagobert Renouf (29:46)
So, okay. So there's a difference. I didn't know. I didn't know not all EU passports were the same. Okay.
Uros (29:55)
EU passports were the same, Serbia is not in the EU.
Dagobert Renouf (29:59)
Still not?
Uros (30:00)
Still not.
Dagobert Renouf (30:03)
So if I go to... fuck. Serbia is not in the EU? I had no idea, But Croatia is in the EU. But Serbia is not. Okay, I had no idea. Romania is in the EU? my god. Okay.
Uros (30:08)
There you go.
Correct.
Yes,
everyone around except three countries. But we don't go into politics. We don't need that. The thing is my path went through this way. I ended up in Germany. had, let's say, my fair share of working with Germans, German companies and all that stuff, being in Germany as well as for the weather. ⁓ the point was, wait, I got lost.
Dagobert Renouf (30:25)
I had no idea man, okay, cool. You didn't know.
Uros (30:47)
for a second.
Yes, because I was in a lockdown state. Lockdown state for me meant I needed to stay there, be employed until I get the citizenship. Once I got the citizenship, I can do something else. So there was like the dose of being blocked and those of being in fear because if I fail to stay in a company...
There was like a rule that you had three months to find something new or you're all the way back. It doesn't matter how many years you spend in the country.
Dagobert Renouf (31:21)
Yeah.
And how long did you need to stay to get the passport?
Uros (31:27)
I ended up staying eight years.
Dagobert Renouf (31:30)
But how long do to get it? Five? In France it's four years.
Uros (31:33)
So
in Germany up until June last year, it was seven and eight. So you can go with a speedy one. Somehow you could do it in six, but by default it was seven. Then they changed. So you can do it now in five, but there are like some other requirements that again, you need to have higher level of language, something, something. The thing is my path was like the old school way I needed to.
Dagobert Renouf (31:58)
Yeah.
Uros (32:02)
get it in let's say seven, eight years. So now from the beginning of this year, basically I'm somehow free. So the thing is I have the passport. can get it from the room. ⁓
Dagobert Renouf (32:04)
Yeah.
And do you have it? The passport? Do you have it?
No, don't show
it, it's dangerous for your data, but you can just show the front,
Uros (32:20)
Not always, just like
the front. But I was super grateful, but that also caused everything that I was working on the project to just go under the radar. Because the thing that I was working on is five years. So this is the thing that was constant for the five years. And now it's here. So now that's why, again, I am trying to put myself. Yes. ⁓
Dagobert Renouf (32:42)
Yeah.
Big drop of motivation. Yeah.
No, I get it. I get it. My burnout last time was after success, not after failure. I had burnout because after so many years, we were finally making money and I was like, that's all. That's it. And then I still had to work and I had no desire for it. then, yeah.
Uros (32:57)
Yes.
That's, I'm glad that you mentioned that because I have like, I have a girlfriend now, like that's a recent thing as well. But her mindset is she went through different things that build her up in the way that basically how you said it right now. Because a lot of people think now you're successful, now everything is gonna be easy. Both changes are changes for basically your nervous system. So whatever comes next, you need to.
adapt to that change and you can also get burnout from this and a lot of people don't talk about this because they think now you're successful you have the money and then you don't need to think about this but to roll all the way back the money is now let's say the outcome but what was the thing that you wanted to get out of this so that's why I asked in the beginning what was the outcome that you wanted to do with these interviews and this is again to connect with yourself it's not for the money
Dagobert Renouf (33:44)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, 100%.
Yeah, I still need money though, and that's a bit of a challenge right now. Because when I started selling these spots on my wedding suit, I had this feeling again of making money, which I didn't have in a long time. Of like, you know, people say, yeah, I want in, I want in. And I still have to convince them, you know, some people. ⁓ But I was just like, the first day I make 3K, second day I make 2K, then I make 3K.
And I used to make more money like long time ago when I was a developer and shit. And I stopped chasing it. But at the same time, man, it felt so good when I started making, you know, like. And so now I'm really trying to find a balance, because I think the problem is project like launch day, if I just want to turn it into a money making thing, it will probably damage it.
like damage the, like it happens to so many things, like product hunt used to be cool, now it's kind of shit. Indiehackers.com, same thing. That's because people wanna keep growing, growing, growing, and so they dilute the proposition. And I don't wanna do that. I wanna keep launch day amazing and cool forever. But I know that by doing that, unlikely it will make a lot of money.
And so it's fine as a project, it's The whole thing is fine with me. It's just that, wow, when I feel again what it's like to make money, I also want this. And I'm like, hmm, how do I solve this? Because one thing I might be doing some things on the side, I had stopped doing that, but I'm like, maybe I should because...
I mean, I didn't want to do that because I was kind of lost and I wanted to focus on my own thing. But now that I have found my thing, I feel more confident being able to do something else on the side without being distracted because I know I'm doing lunch day and also because of this connection thing. It's not just my thing. Now it's the thing of, you know, there's already, I think, probably 30 or 40 people who have done lunch day now.
Uros (36:31)
Yes.
Dagobert Renouf (36:44)
who are part of the community and like more people coming in. So now it's not just me. And because of that, it's easier to get it going and to stay kind of like connected to it, even if I do something else. So for a long time, I was scared to have a job or do, but now I kind of like see it, maybe I need something. I need some way to good money, because it makes me happy when I make a lot of money. It really does. I feel a shame of saying it, but it really does make me happy.
but I also don't want to damage my projects by just chasing money. Just for me, money is a fun game and it feels great, but it's not the end, it's just one thing I need. And so, yeah, that's kind of like my reflection these past couple days. Yeah.
Uros (37:22)
Yes.
It's great that you put it again like that because the important thing for you is to know where your values are. Again, now you said there's nothing bad in like, again, having money. The thing is, ⁓ again, my girlfriend mentioned money doesn't make people bad. Money just, let's say, opens the door to the people of who they really are.
So if you cannot handle, let's say, some huge amount or something like that, that's just like your true character because then you haven't enabled yourself some different things that you couldn't do in the past. Let's say it removes probably that also fear of not having money or being stuck somewhere.
Dagobert Renouf (38:15)
Yeah.
Yeah, no,
it happened to me last time when I... because I used to make a hundred K a year with a job from a US company living in my town of Lille, France, which is not expensive. So I was feeling very wealthy, you know, at my level. And I remember it was changing me. Like I was making less effort to be friends with some people because I was less afraid of not being able to survive alone or shit. And I remember that.
And it's totally true, like when you have money, it's not that it corrupts you, it's that you stop being fake and so then, you know, well, let's hope you're not a piece of shit. ⁓
Uros (39:01)
Literally.
maybe that can also be again the option you put a crowdfunding and you say, let's see if I'm shit. How much people, how much money ends up here? How much they're going to unlock me of who I am. Let's say we can talk about different things so much. I'm not going to take, let's say all the time. I can show now the product. We can always catch up afterwards. But
Dagobert Renouf (39:14)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uros (39:31)
let's say as an intro to the product, my biggest challenge was...
I collect information and I save information that's of use for me. The problem is later I don't know where it is or I cannot retrieve it. So there's many tools on the internet that I tried, like you cannot imagine. Like I think one day I really need to sit down, but none of them actually ended up the way how I think or not the way how I think, it's just like the value that I need.
Dagobert Renouf (39:58)
No, yeah, me too, me too, yeah.
Uros (40:10)
because my value is, it's there and I know I'm gonna find it. There is a lot of tools that you can put there and you say, I know it's there, but whenever I need to find it, you get lost. So, I use...
Dagobert Renouf (40:23)
Yep. I'm really curious
to see because I think I have this problem and I think many people have it. And I'm wondering if the way you solve it is the way I want it to be solved. You know, because as you said, I think the problem with these tools also is they're like a thousand ways to solve this problem that are compatible with different people also, you know.
Uros (40:42)
Yes.
Yes. ⁓
I show you right now, my goal is again, as a product designer, this was also my challenge to create something very, let's say, simple and straightforward. So again, now because it was under my eyes for so long. So this is basically the view that you're gonna get when you log in. And everything is in the shape of
messages so the concept is ⁓ You message yourself and then you have everything there in the shape of the message the benefit of This is that all the messages are modular so you can add more information to the to the message itself so if you save a link you can also add a note and Then you can search for it later
by whatever you see in the message itself. So either that be a URL, a description, or the note. So you can search for all that. And ⁓ this is the...
Dagobert Renouf (41:53)
It's smart
because it's basically the best UX messages, like just a feed. Like the simpler the better. So I really appreciate it. Yeah.
Uros (42:01)
Correct.
Thank you. The reason why I did this is because it was funny. So since I've been working on this for five years, so I always imagined the future being in the message based system. And then when ChadGPT happened, ⁓ I was like, ⁓ no, it's happening. So it was there, but I simply didn't want to just like plug in the...
Dagobert Renouf (42:24)
Yeah.
Uros (42:30)
API to the ChaiGPT and make it another ChaiGPT wrapper. I paused for the hype, so maybe it's the wrong thing I did, but it was, again, my values behind this. I wanted this to be a tool and not just some AI something whatever. So I appreciate there's a lot of AI tools that are very good, but I wanted to do this plus AI in a very good way. So let me do a short...
I'm gonna connect with the phone, so I'm gonna do let's say the connection, how those two things work and then you're gonna get a little bit better explanation. So should be now, there, perfect. So let's do it like this.
So for example, now we have like everything that you write, you just write it as a message. So, had a cool meeting today. So now you send it, and the point is like, I don't want people to think where they're gonna organize or whatever. Everything ends up in the inbox. So as you see, here it ended up here, or if you wanna like, let's call mom.
Dagobert Renouf (43:36)
Mm-hmm.
Uros (43:50)
you send a message and then you add a task to it. So now because these two are not completely synced all the time, so you make a task out of the message, again, after you do everything. So I don't need to go anywhere to organize, I'm just like dumping stuff in. So for example, let's say here I have this, let's say folder with you, then again, what are you grateful for? This is the question you can answer yourself.
again off the video and make sure your screen recording is has permission we did that now it works and this is what we already talked about so for example in these let's say since I've been working on this and I like small details the thing that annoyed me a lot is if I want to select multiple messages usually you need to go like one by one and all that stuff so I tried different UX patterns that I haven't seen
Dagobert Renouf (44:21)
Okay.
Uros (44:47)
For example, if you select one and you select the last one, everything in between selects. So those are like the small details, but the cool thing comes is, for example, now I have other things that I saved from you, let's say from your Twitter, but I can't find it. So if I just now write Dago, so anything that has Dago in the links, I can find. So for example, here I have like...
Dagobert Renouf (44:53)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Uros (45:15)
some of the links that I saved from 2022. So I've been following you for a while and here for example. Yeah, yes. But basically now from here, you can just go in a tweet and then you can continue from that point on. So for example, let's say I find him useful and then I say, okay, this is cool.
Dagobert Renouf (45:23)
I see. Well, okay. Back when I was doing daily memes.
Uros (45:46)
And then from here you can also save stuff. So anywhere where you end up searching for stuff, you can save from wherever page. And then again, it ends up in the inbox. You get a...
Dagobert Renouf (45:51)
I
And how is
this thing on the left? Is it manual? Do you use AI in any way? Because you talked about AI earlier.
Uros (46:00)
you
So AI right now, no. The only AI that I have is here, for example, let's say, dog or bat.
wrong, doesn't matter, who is he. Then there's like these actions that, so here are these actions that you can open and then you can open ChaiGPT directly from there. But at one point I wanna again make the messages smarter so you can talk with the message and you can add, let's say more different things. The transcription is already...
Dagobert Renouf (46:31)
Yeah, I see, okay.
Yes, he.
Uros (46:44)
But I don't want to again build stuff just because it's cool I want it to be useful and all these things here those are just like folders that you can move stuff to so for example I Don't know this one can go in the Twitter and then it ends up being there and you have folders for anything So folders sorry filters. So for example, if you say I want I don't know where something is
but I know that it was a link and that it had a to-do. So anything that has a link and is a task, you can actually find.
Dagobert Renouf (47:21)
And how did you
make the task? How did you turn this into a task earlier?
Uros (47:26)
So any message that you write, so let's see who is he, so either you press on plus task or in the message you can swipe or you can add it from here or in the UX you can just press on plus and then you have it there. So yeah the point is you just need to remember briefly what it is, again I don't need super AI smartness you can just say okay
Dagobert Renouf (47:36)
yeah, okay.
Uros (47:56)
The cool thing that helped me a lot, let's say, that I missed in the cloud services is that if I had a file and it was a task, or I cannot task a file anywhere, so now I could do the tasks on the files and you can add description to whatever.
Dagobert Renouf (48:16)
Yeah, yeah, I see what you mean. Yeah, I think...
Uros (48:18)
So this is basically the gist.
Dagobert Renouf (48:23)
Yeah, because I have like some bookmarks in like Instagram and Twitter. The always annoying thing is to have them everywhere. And this, I think this message UX is nice because you can basically just send it to yourself. Can you like send it like, like if you're like on Instagram and you want to send it to somewhere, how do you do that?
Uros (48:29)
So.
Yes, so for example let's go on Instagram
So you just go share.
you just add it. So from here you can already make it a task, add a note, or you can move it somewhere else.
Dagobert Renouf (49:02)
Awesome. Yeah, that's basically what I was wondering
like because it needs to be super easy, but once it's easy, then it's good.
Uros (49:08)
Yeah, so now I think it should already be here and the cool thing that I also have, yeah, so here it is, is I added, so there's also plugin for the browser. So you get like the lucky note icon and whenever you save, you can add notes. So add a task and again, I can save it to the folder. So now it's again in the folder itself. So anything that you save,
Dagobert Renouf (49:35)
It's really
cool, think it's like a... Because know, Evernote is something that was an amazing product that they killed and they need a replacement. I like this, I like this. I think it has... I like the simplicity. Do you have users yet? I mean, we got to end the call, but like, do you have... How is it? Yeah.
Uros (49:43)
Yes.
Yes, I'm
going to stop the sharing. do have, there's like 5,000 people who are registered, 5,500. So now I'm trying to, let's say, make the little bit more, let's say marketing effort for other people to see and then see the results. It's 58. Thank you for staying super long. We can text for anything further. You can stop if you want right now, but I'm super grateful for this call.
Dagobert Renouf (50:11)
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm inviting you to the Slack
right now. We can continue. That was awesome to have you on launch day. And good luck. And please don't leave the call right away.
Uros (50:33)
All right, thank
you, Dago, so much.
Dagobert Renouf (50:36)
Cheers. ⁓